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Leaving It All Behind: One Woman’s Move to the Middle East · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Shy away from the real talk?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: No way.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Now back to the show.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work it Like A Bomb podcast.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Today I am chatting with Susanna Gray-Jones, who is the founder of Chime Search, a recruitment company.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: We're going to be chatting with Susanna all about her background in recruitment, what made her want to set up her own business, and also about her lovely lifestyle in Dubai and what it's like to be an expat and how if you're considering listening to this, considering maybe relocating how to make your expat adventures a success.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, susanna, for joining me.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: I love your podcast and I love all your branding and everything, so it's an absolute pleasure.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, I looked, yeah, when we first met, didn't we?
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: I was on your podcast and we recorded it before Christmas and I remember thinking, god, she looks really warm.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: So I was there like huddled up, and I was on your podcast and we recorded it before Christmas and I remember thinking, god, she looks really warm.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: So I was there like huddled up and then I was like where are you based?
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: And you were like Dubai and I was like, oh my gosh, we'll have to get you on our podcast because I know a lot of people you know want to relocate and are relocating.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: So I thought it would be really good to get your take on.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: You know what prompted you to relocate and how?
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: How has it been for you?
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, it's funny, isn't it?
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: I'm like I feel like you've got two types of people in this world one type of person who's anxious about any change and will just stay in a rut for a long time, but they'll be quite comfortable in that rut.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: And then you've got the other type of person who probably changes a bit too much and is very adaptable, a bit like a chameleon.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: I'm definitely one of those people who loves change too much, to the point that my whole life you know, people joke that me and my husband are moving like every six months to a new property, or we'll move the room around, or something like that.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: To answer your question, I kind of had something I don't like to kind of talk about too much, but I had a bit of a health scare about two years ago well, two and a half years ago now and everyone, if there's something that might be up with them, they go to google.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they've done this.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you put the symptoms in and I don't know what it is maybe the negativity bias that we all have, naturally, but you always assume the worst and they always say never Google, but everyone does, and it was kind of one of those moments that my life flashed before my eyes and I thought do you know what?
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: We do take life for granted.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: I really do believe.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, what do they say?
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: It's like one in four, 400 trillion chances that we are actually born in the first place.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: So I'm always one of those people who's very conscious of how lucky I am to be here in the first place.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: So to lose all that, it was kind of like, oh my gosh, and having kids and everything.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: I just thought what would I do?
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: And I thought you know, well, we can, can't meet aliens, but we can go to the other side of the world.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and um, my husband was like you know what, let's just do it, let's just do it.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Um, and we did.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: He could get a job over here quite easily.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: I could set up my business over here.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: So we just did it and, yeah, it's been an absolute dream.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: It took adjustment, but anyone who knows Dubai it's the weather is amazing, you've got an extra life.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: You're in a sleeveless top, aren't you talking to me?
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, literally like again jumpers blankets.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: I've got the electric heater on.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: I know and do you know what?
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: The heat is absolutely insane sometimes, like it can get really hot, but ultimately, I think in general, your mindsets and everything like that is very affected in a positive way by the sunshine etc.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: So it is, it is, yeah, overall very, very positive.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: So yeah so what's actually?
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: What is like, the practicalities, and if you maybe want to move to somewhere, I know every country will be different, so we'll just talk about Dubai.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: But if you want to move to somewhere, I know every country will be different, so we'll just talk about Dubai.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: But if you want to move to Dubai, do you need to have a job before you move to Dubai?
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: So, first of all, yeah, first of all, it is quite difficult to get over here.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people think, oh, you know what, you can move to Dubai and yeah, basically you will be offered a house, you'll be offered the dream.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: A lot of people sell the Middle Eastern dream, the sunshine.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: The reality is quite different to that, like especially now.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, 10 years ago they were begging for people to come over here, but the reality now is that it's hard.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: There's so many people wanting to come here.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I get messaged every day on LinkedIn people saying you know no tax.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: This would be amazing, it looks awesome and you know what will companies do to get me over there, but it's so hard.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: I think most companies have like about 1000 applicants for one job.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: Like it's absolutely insane.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: So it's, it is.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: It's quite difficult to do, but if you work in something like tech or marketing or those kind of backgrounds a lot of companies now moving over here um, it's got a huge expat lifestyle, um, and it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a great place to be.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: I think, being at that point where I am a bit older now, um, and you kind of go through your 20s, you go out and then you're kind of expected to kind of stay at home a bit more and settle down I hate that phrase, settle down.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Being in Dubai is much more it it's more expected to go out with families and do stuff with the kids because of the weather, and it gives you lots of opportunities like that.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: I'm so mindful when I talk about Dubai, not sound all smug because you know, like anywhere, I love Dubai, so I've only ever been on holiday.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: so I'm like genuinely intrigued Because, you know, sometimes as well you hear on the radio, emirates advertises quite a lot on UK radio asking for people to become, you know, work on their airlines and things, and I was like, oh, it's so sad.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: You know, they really do sell the Middle Eastern dream, like you said.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: So do you need a job?
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: I mean job.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: You know if someone's listening to this, could they just fly over and start applying for jobs, or do you need a job before you fly?
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: the first mistake that people think is that they can apply before they come over.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: A lot of companies get applications and they just don't take it very seriously, like, for example, my husband.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: A recruitment agency said we'll only take you seriously if you fly out here and do 10 interviews.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: We'll set you up with 10 companies.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: But you have to fly out here first and then we'll set up the interviews just to check that.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: He was serious, because I think a lot of people they have a bad day at work and they think, oh, the sea and the sun, I would do it, and then it kind of like never transpires.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: They end up saying where they are and making a change is such a big thing, especially when it's emigrating.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: So I understand.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: But if you're listening to this and you're thinking, you know what.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: I would love to move to Dubai.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: First of all, look into it in a lot of depth.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: So which companies are hiring?
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Speak to a recruiter.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: What is the likelihood of me getting a role if I was to come over next month?
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Because that's what they'll expect?
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: They won't say, oh, come over in four, because that's what they'll expect.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: They.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: They won't say, oh, come over in four or five months and we'll get you a role.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: You have to almost be ready.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: So, and it is.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: You know it is expensive.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, there's no tax, but there's a lot of expenses to consider, like, for example, the food over here is way more expensive to buy in the shops, um.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: But then there are some things that are surprisingly cheaper, like my laptop broke down the other night and I knew I had to work the next day.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: One was delivered to my door the same evening, um, a second hand one and a nice apple for a couple of hundred quid.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: So it's, it's bizarre.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: It's bizarre.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: And obviously things like labor are cheaper here, which always makes me fine.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: I feel a bit a bit funny about that.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: People always tell me off because I overpay for the cleaner or anything, but I, I it's the.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: The rates you can get away with are just scary.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you've got people coming from from pakistan, india, where they would not be able to get paid as much as they would here, but to us it's yeah.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: So there are some sides of it like that that I feel uncomfortable with on a day-to-day basis, but it's more about the world opposed to.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Dubai it's more about how the world operates.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what we don't see often in the western culture, which is scary how do you find a job then?
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: because you said speak to recruiters, look at jobs.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Is there like specialist job boards, specialist recruitment agencies?
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: I know that obviously you're there, um, you know, but how?
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: Where would people look for a role?
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: they can come to me obviously yeah and I I have quite a few contacts out here um who work sort of in the recruitment world.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: If you do work in recruitment um, you have to normally a build over 250k to be even locked up um and taken seriously.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: So you know, there is, there is that side of it um which is, you know you have to be the top of your game because you know that there'll be a lot of competition.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: So I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry that's not the little ones coming in.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to pause.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna speak to my nanny.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: I am so sorry.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: I actually the nanny was going to take them out and I don't know why I've gone out.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Um, I think they're a bit over.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: I've just that's fine, I forgot where we were now.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Um, oh yeah, you were saying about how recruiters need to be billing over 250 grand because there'll be lots of competition.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's more like the private sector.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: So things like tech, things like marketing are huge over here, especially like PR and communication side.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: That kind of recruitment is huge, whereas HR is on the up but it's not so big.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Legal is expanding over here, so there's a few areas that more and more companies are growing.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: And then obviously you've got saudi, which is like becoming the new dubai, where lots and lots of people are going um again maybe that's dubai 10 years ago.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: So if you feel I'm this is me obviously not knowing a lot, but you know you've sort of said how competitive it is to get into dubai, but maybe you want that heat and that lifestyle, then you might you know, saudi might be somewhere to look at it's so true.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Um, the only thing is, if you're listening to this and you love going for a drink and you're into your alcohol and partying, saudi isn't so great for that because there's no alcohol there and even in Dubai it's quite hard to get.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Um, you know me as a woman, yeah, being in a middle eastern country, and maybe even I don't know if you know people that are in Saudi, because that as an outsider looking in that looks a bit stricter than Dubai.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Um, I don't know what your take is it is it as a woman like I.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I've always been someone who gosh makes me sound odd, doesn't it?
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: But I I wear so short tops and shorts and stuff like that hasn't been a problem at all.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: A lot of the press that Dubai gets is that you mustn't wear low tops and all of that stuff.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: It's not that bad.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Um, in fact, I've never been banned from any of the malls that I work in.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: I sort of walk around and nothing at all.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I guess the one thing in my gym you know, normally we're used to going to the gym and just getting changed, but like they're quite strict about it there, like no nudity in the changing rooms, you have to go and be private to do that and stuff like that.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: So you notice a little bit.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: But as a woman, I feel quite equal, which I wasn't expecting to feel, being quite a strong feminist woman.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: I thought do you know what?
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: How am I going to cope with this?
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: But there have been no issues at all.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: I think if you go deeper into the legalities, women probably have less rights.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: They'll have to get more evidence to get a visa.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: I think you need to get permission to get a visa to work from the man if you're going to work in your own right and things like.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: I think there's a few things like that, but overall it's become a lot more westernized, even lgbt I've seen an lgbt night and supposedly that's something that isn't allowed over here.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Um, but these things are happening.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: It's becoming increasingly westernized.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I would definitely recommend it to anyone who's listening to this.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: It's a place to go and you probably won't like it for the first two, three months.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: For me it was the settling in, and I always say there's like three stages to change, isn't there?
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: And the settling in is always a bit kind of denial.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: You know you miss what you know.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: I guess when you got there was it, it must have felt a little bit like a holiday initially, and then it suddenly is like oh no, this is this life.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean, this is again you're gonna say this smug podcast guest, but still does feel like a holiday, sometimes, like every weekend it's not.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: You know where should.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Where should we go, like it's more of a.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Which swimming pool should we go to?
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Which hotel should we go and sit in?
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: And you know which beach club should we go to?
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: So it, there is that sign and that's really nice.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: And some people, most people in fact who are sort of within their sort of 20 to 25 years of age apparently 80 percent recruiters have told me come over here.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: They get so absorbed by the party, the beach clubs, that they only stay two years and then they go back because they've spent all their money.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: So I think if you are listening to this and you're thinking, oh, I'd like to move to the middle East, you know, make sure that you are serious and you know that you will have to work hard and it's not all.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: No, tax and party party.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: You do.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: It's hard to put your head down when there's so much sun and you know niceness around, so that that's one thing to think about.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: That's a good point.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: And how did you make friends then?
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Did you know anybody in Dubai when you moved there?
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: such well yeah, I mean being a recruiter, I'm such a networker anyway um, and I'm a strong believer a lot of people think, oh, shall I contact that person, or should I?
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I'm such a networker anyway and I'm a strong believer A lot of people think, well, shall I contact that person, or should I?
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I'm like, tell me who you know and I'll message them straight away.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: So normally if you speak to anyone, they know someone who lives abroad and people are so up for meeting here, especially like families and who are in a similar situation.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: We used to live in a place in the UK, we had kids and we struggled to make friends, whereas here it's, we do find it really easy and like lots of like-minded people who are very ambitious, business-minded, business focused, and lots of women.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Actually, there's a woman kind of workspace where I'm surrounded by like-minded females who are entrepreneurs and solopreneurs, which can be quite a lonely lifestyle.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: So yeah it's, the it's.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: It's great from that angle.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: But yeah, you have got the heat and that and you have got the expense of living, which which are the downsides as well yeah, just weighing it all up, interesting and um.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: So how did you know where to live?
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm just asking you all these questions you want to come and move here?
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Come and move here with me I know I'm like I love dubai honestly.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: I've had such lovely holidays there.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah, because obviously you know you come as a tourist.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: It does seem a massive city and I'm like I wonder how you know where to live and is there like yeah, I mean it's interesting and yeah, you've got to like dig deep to find the good places.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: My husband took us here for a honeymoon and he was like, oh Sue's, honestly, dubai is amazing and I'll be honest, my first thing was a bit disappointment.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: I was thinking it was going to be like the Maldives and you know, it is very built up, the roads are very busy.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: I don't drive here, but yeah, I mean it's.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: We moved somewhere called Dubai Hills, which is you can get anywhere in about 10 minutes, which for me was a blessing, because I'm very impatient.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: And you go to London and it takes 45 minutes to an hour.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: I can't deal with the waiting, um, whereas here you can pretty much get around in 10-15 minutes to anywhere, um, which is great if you're a busy, busy person, so that that is one blessing.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Um, and on that with delivery, food like anything I know delivery is in the uk now, but anything they've got something called noon.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: It's guaranteed to get to you in 20 minutes and it's like anything from like a tv to a bed to oh gosh, it's not even like little groceries everything.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: It's um, it's crazy.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: So that's one danger, though, right, you can get very lazy here, and there's a lot of.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but you go to the park sometimes on Sundays and you see a lot of nannies with kids and you know that a lot of the families aren't probably working, and that makes me sad, because I think you can get to the point that you forget about your responsibilities and you know to to live your life.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: I think we all need to have the hard things in life which can involve children.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Children can be a wonderful thing as well, but the difficult sides of it there are.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: There are some people who just get so absorbed by the lifestyle that they just outsource everything.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: And I think that can be a danger for anyone.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I don't judge people who do that, but I think it can be a danger.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so what prompted you to set up your business then?
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: Chime Search.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Well, to be honest with you, I think, like every mum gets to a point where I think we're still at a point for mums where you're expected to either work full time or just leave work completely.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: I know your business says otherwise, but I think a lot of companies are still quite backwards and thinking about how to support mums Like, oh well, haven't you got childcare?
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Haven't you got any alternative?
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: It's not always understood, and I'm not saying my company weren't and I'm not saying my company weren't, but I got to that point that I was like, do I want to be not acing my game because I can't always be there?
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: I built myself up to become a sales director.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I've done really well.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to be overtaken by someone because it was a juggle between children or work, and I think a lot of people have that.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: They think, well, I'm going to be a career woman and I'm also going to they.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: They think, well, I'm going to be a career woman and I'm also going to be a mom, I'm going to be everything and it's.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: It's actually really hard, like I still struggle with the guilt.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: I think we all have the mom guilt and I knew that I would give myself such a hard time working full-time in a director role that I was.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I have to do something, and it was COVID.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, nobody was setting up their own business.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: We were all like I actually asked to be furloughed so that I could spend more time with the kids, um, and then I just said, look, I, I've done 13 years here.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: I've loved every minute, but I am going to just set up my own thing and be mum.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Um, where I got that courage from, I don't know.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: And it was really scary.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: I remember there wasn't a minute that I wasn't working for the first few months.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: And then you kind of find your groove and yeah, then you're settling in, but yeah, so I set up the recruitment business rec to rec and first, were you rec to rec before, because I know you've been in recruitment a long time, but were you doing rec to rec recruit, which is recruitment to recruitment, and people are listening no, yeah, um, yeah, I was doing education recruitment so I was placing teachers in schools.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: So that's like your 7am starts, you're finishing, normally about six, sometimes into the evening, and I just had these images of me trying to do everything and it even.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: You know, I had one child when I was doing that and I found it really difficult.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: I'm not to say that some people don't do it, that some people do it very well, but for me I knew the kind of guilt and the hands-on parenting.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: It's an early start, isn't it that?
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: one.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: It is, and there's something to be said about being able to pick your child up from nursery or drop them off at least one of them.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: To being able to do that is such a it shouldn't be a privilege, but it feels like a privilege, yeah, and lots of companies don't allow for that.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: So I knew that I could give myself that opportunity and I have, and I think it pays off so did you decide not to do education recruitment, because you knew that those were the hours not even that I didn't want to work in competition with my company.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: I felt very loyal 13 years.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: They were like a family to me and to work in competition didn't feel right.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: I probably could have stayed there and taken a step back.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: But I'm also quite proud and I think sometimes taking a step back can.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was more a pride thing.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: I probably they would have made it work for me, but the pride kind of was there and at least now I'm at a point where I can pick the hours that I work.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: But those times between 6 and 8 pm when the kids go to bed, that's like my non-negotiable time.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: And even though you can work for someone and still say that you've still got someone above you and you're kind of thinking should I be doing this or you've?
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: got that kind of fear of judgment.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: So I think there's that element which I'm sure you found as well, yeah, yeah.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: And how did you find the pivot then, moving from education recruitment to rec to rec?
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: okay, because I was always in a senior role for the last sort of five years within the company.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: So.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: So I was always thinking when we needed new staff I'd be like all over Facebook trying to advertise we need new recruiters, we need new recruiters.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: So even though it wasn't my job, I was kind of unofficially doing it anyway and I think with recruitment it's a bit of a formula, especially if you love the people side and you love the hustling side.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people think that to be a recruiter it's just about finding people jobs.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: But I've always been a salesperson.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: You know I'll interrupt anyone in their day and try and make it a positive experience.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: I think sales gets a very bad name, but if it's done well and a positive interruption in recruitment, it's to me what makes an A grade recruiter.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: So, because I have no shame, that's always kind of been my formula, which has translated into this industry, which is now rec direct within recruiting for recruiters who do education but also law now.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: So it's oh right, okay, so there was the education.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Is it just Dubai, or do you recruit in the UK as well?
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: UK a lot, um, I feel like because of the need in Dubai, because one job typically gets a few hundred, if not more, applications, it made sense for me to work where people are struggling to find candidates so that I can target those passive candidates, which is mad, right.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: You think recruiters would find it easy to recruit for recruiters because they are recruiters, but it's it's it's tough.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: A lot of people are leaving recruitment.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: I think they say the average lifespan for a recruiter is about two years or something like that.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: I think it was like that, then when I because I feel like I don't want to prefer, I feel like me and you are similar ages, because I feel like we started at the same time no, you're younger than me?
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Definitely yeah, I'm 38, 37 no, I'm older than you, I'm 39.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: No way.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Anyone who's watching this you'll see her skin looks much younger than mine.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: She's clearly doing something right.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: No, yeah, but I remember when I started real quick, because I started in 2007, people did leave.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: We literally had a year, and then it was the Lehman Brothers credit grant.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Why do you think that is Because I think a lot of people don't realize it's a sales job, yes, completely agree, and they go it a lot.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: We I remember we had a lot of people that done HR at, but it was like a HR job and it isn't a HR job.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: It really is a sales job.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: I know, and even now, there's people on LinkedIn boasting that they don't have to do any calls or anything any sales calls and I think great for them.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: But you've obviously got a very strong marketing function, because to me, every recruiter needs to pick up the phone or interrupt someone.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: It's about how it's done.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: I think that is, you know, if it's a warm contact and interruption, not always just banging the phone for the sake of it, um makes all the difference.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I, I, I put my hat off to any salesperson.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of people out there who just struggle with the sales side, even though I do on a bad day, it's it's tough.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Sales is always tough, so I do understand why people do leave recruitment, but it's like anything, isn't it?
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Personal training, the things that we find hard we just keep doing, and I think what's interesting as well is your podcast title the counteroffer.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: So come on to that.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: I think there's that element about recruitment which I struggle with still is that that can't control pace.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: You know you'll meet a candidate yourself.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: You think, oh my gosh, they're amazing, you'll present them to a client and then something happens that's completely out of your control and then and it's a bit like this the counter offer isn't it.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Where you may be.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: You know, playing the blinder, you've got brilliant candidate, they say yes and then get a counter offer it is.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: And if you're really optimistic and you think I've made all these placements and then two, two out of four of them don't start, it can be absolutely soul destroying.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen people, you know they say recruitment is where people's dreams are made to die like.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: I've seen people really suffer, um, for that, and I think I'm a bit, a bit kind of like I always think the worst is going to happen.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: I'm pleasantly surprised and a lot of people say that's an awful way to be, but I actually think it's a great way to be, because I'm always like, oh wow, that money I thought I didn't have, I do have, or you know something like that.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: So I think you can be a pessimist without being negative do you think you make you very positive as you've got more into your career?
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Because I remember, you know, I remember you'd be working with someone and that might happen to their first placement and I'd really feel for them.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: But as you've become much more experienced, does it affect you less when things like that happen?
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: I think ultimately it's about pipeline, and as long as you're always filling the pipeline, then you're not going to be on the deathly roller coaster, which is like where you go straight to the bottom.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: As long as you've got a, you're filling your pipeline.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: The worst case scenario means that there might be another placement that happens, or might be something else that happens.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: That happens, and that way you don't become a desperate recruiter and you don't have to push anyone and you can consult and give a really good service, which is what I believe all recruiters should be and the people on the receiving end can make more informed choices because they don't feel bullied into something.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: So I feel like if you want to work in recruitment, the worst thing that you can do is put all your hopes on one placement or two placements.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: You have to keep filling that pipeline yeah which comes back to the sales piece, which is the bit we all don't like doing, but we have to do yeah, and I guess it's the same.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Any sales job, isn't it?
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: I suppose any sales job, yeah, and obviously you see a lot of CVs and in your job, what if there's somebody listening to this?
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Might not be a recruiter, but can you give any general tips on how to make a CV stand out?
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: You know you're reviewing hundreds of applications for a job.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: How do you make sure yours is the one that you know a recruiter would call?
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Definitely Well, I think.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: First of all, linkedin.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: A lot more recruiters now are just looking at LinkedIn.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: So having a really strong LinkedIn profile and making that stand out, a professional photo, which sounds obvious.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: But I do see a lot of LinkedIn profiles where people have like, literally you can't even see their face, they've got a cap on or they're like got a glass of wine in their hands, got a glass of wine in their hands.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: So I think there's having a professional LinkedIn profile and having a link to that and always making sure that that's visible.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: I think when it comes to resumes or CVs, I think making sure that your tagline at the top is really eye-catching what's your, why?
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Why should they employ you?
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: And then, when you're talking about each individual company that you worked in, not just what your responsibility is for, but what you did for them.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: So what, what they were like when you started to what they were like when you ended and I think not enough people do that and I think if you think hard enough, you can think about how many people you influenced while you're there, what your sales figures were or, um, you can really grasp about your relationships that you built, like from your.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: How did you impact that workplace?
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: So a few lines cover letters.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but I think cover letters that are too long are just complete turnoffs.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: I think you should just have a cover letter that's maybe even just five lines.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: yeah, I actually think cover letters are really important and I never used to, but now since I've become a hiring manager for myself rather than just recruiting for other people and the lady that I hired for my marketing role, she wrote.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: She wrote a phenomenal cover letter.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: I can hardly remember her CV and it was her cover letter because she just had obviously learned loads of research about the organization my organization.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: She told me a compelling story about her.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: I felt like I just knew her.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: And how long was it?
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Because I always find it's probably about half a page.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: It was probably, but it wasn't like really.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: It was about half a page and then it sounded quite familiar, but in a nice way.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: She'd obviously, like you know, felt like I just knew her it's that research, isn't it I?
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: guess you're selling yourself to the points of the company.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: So what do you like about them?
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Or is this just a generic AI version of a cover letter?
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: yeah, I don't know.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: There's actually what she had done as well.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: She had included a couple of bullet points in the cover letter about that impact that she'd made on previous employers, which you obviously just mentioned yeah, love that.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: I think AI these days.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, although I love AI, I think if it's done well, I think too many people are blanket, lazily doing AI and then it's so obvious I think yeah.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I would say, if you are going to use AI, do it in a way that write it yourself first and maybe ask it to correct your grammar instead of yeah, don't ask it to write it for you, because if it writes it for you, it won't have your voice and it will be obvious, because they probably read loads of cover letters every day yeah, absolutely so.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Before we wrap up counteroffer what made you want to start podcast?
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Should someone take a counteroffer as well?
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: What's your views on the counter offers?
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: so I started a podcast because I wanted a lot of you'll find this as well.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: A lot of companies get bad names.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Maybe something happened or someone was let go, or there might just be something that happened with a particular company that gets out there.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: The companies that I represent, I bet very, very, very fully, and sometimes, instead of just a recruiter trying to sell you the company, I get the company to actually interview the company so someone can listen to it first before deciding whether they want to work there or not.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: So that's a big part of it, but also, I just think, all part of personal branding.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: If you're working with people in any kind of relationship role, it's a great way for people to get to know you and your interests.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: And I'm curious, like when I interviewed you, I was like, right, she's interesting, I want to know more about what she does.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: But I also have psychotherapists on there occasionally, so it's a mixture of clients but also people who inspire me and I'm lucky I've had some really good guests like yourself.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: So I think if you're thinking about podcasting, it's a lot easier than you think it's going to be.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: I think I was so nervous my first one, but once you get over that.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: It's a nice chat, isn't it?
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I feel like you.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: I feel I've had loads of free coaches.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: I have quite a lot of coaches online and I always feel I've had loads of free coaching.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: I've had free business advice.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: I've had some lovely conversations.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: I feel like I can walk away from every conversation like just a richer person, because I've just learned so much.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: And that's what I love about your podcast as well.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: I think you're you're doing a very conversational style, not like overly interviewing.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: You're very natural, and I think that when I've been listening to you at the gym or whatever, it feels like you're listening in someone else's conversation, like, oh, I'm actually quite interested, what were they talking about?
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: And I think for me those are the podcasts that are worth listening to.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: One for the natural and not too rehearsed yeah, any actually, before we wrap up any podcast, um recommendations that any other podcasts you enjoy listening to oh well, I um, this sounds like I'm plugging myself, but I I'm a massive lover of I'm gonna find it out.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: It's dr amen.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you've come across it.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: It's all about the brain.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love that.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Anything, anything to do.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: I do know what.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: I listen to it all the time.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna look at what it's called now.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: It's called yes, change your brain every day, dr amen.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: So it's basically him and his wife.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: They have anything from like top 10 tips of um of bringing up kids, or top 10 tips to keep your relationship on track, like, and all of the things are relatable to how the brain works, so how you can influence people.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: So I'm always I mean it's changed the way that I bring up my kids.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: You know, I used to be very kind of militant and it's like it's my house, you'll respect my rules, but now I'm very much kind of helping them learn mistakes for themselves and I think a lot of people could learn so much from it, even if they don't take on board what he says.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: I think it's such an interesting lesson and him and his wife just have great, great, uh, great great boundaries.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: I will have a listen.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: I will download that.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: I'll subscribe to the show definitely.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Let me know what you think absolutely, and then your podcast is the counter offer and the counter offer, yes.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: And if you're interested in American type improv type stuff, um, I've co-hosted previously a great podcast called the Women your Mother Warned you About, which is American.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: A lot of it's about sales and I did it with an improv very famous lady in the US called Gina Tremarco and we had a ball on that.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: So if you ever fancy listening to something a bit different an American and an english person we we had that and that was, yeah, it's a very successful podcast oh, brilliant, and actually forgot to ask counteroffer.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Should you ever take counteroffer if you're offered one?
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: oh, do you know what?
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: Bizarrely, you're the first person who's um he's asked me that question, but I do have an answer.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: So if you're given a counteroffer, there's this horrible statistic that goes around that says oh, it's like going back to an old partner once your trust is gone.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: But actually counteroffer can be good and it might just be that they didn't get to you in time and sometimes you should take that counteroffer.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: However, you need to be mindful that the problems that were there before could still be there in the future.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: So maybe make sure that you didn't like is leaving anyway.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: So actually, the the atmosphere is going to be a lot better, because most people tend to leave because of their managers.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: So make sure that you have enough evidence to know that that is going to improve.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: And if it is just about money and they've given you more money than great, just make sure that the trust is still there.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I would say it's not bad to accept a counter offer, but ideally, if you're thinking of leaving, speak to your employer first so that you're not kind of on the back foot.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: So yeah, there we are great advice.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, susanna, for joining me today.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: We'll put all the links to your business to the podcast in the show notes.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another episode of the work.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: It like a mom podcast.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: If you're on linkedin, please send me a connection request at elizabeth willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.