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Wounded Pastors: Carol Howard talks about the challenges clergy face · Future Christian

0:05
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:08
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:11
church into the 21st century.
0:15
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful
0:21
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
0:24
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Now here's your host, Lauren Richmond Junior.
0:33
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're
0:36
welcoming Carol Howard to the show. Reverend Carol
0:39
Howard is the award winning author of several books,
0:42
including Wounded pastors, navigating Burnout,
0:45
Finding, healing, and discerning the future of your ministry, and
0:48
healing spiritual wounds, reconnecting with a loving
0:51
God after experiencing a hurtful
0:53
church. Carol is a frequent contributor
0:56
to books, websites, magazines, and journals.
0:59
She was a regular columnist at the Christian Century,
1:02
where her blog was hosted. She's a
1:04
Presbyterian Peace USA minister in a village
1:07
church outside of New York City. Let's welcome Carol
1:10
to the show.
1:18
Uh, all right.
1:21
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren
1:24
Richmond junior, and today I'm pleased to welcome
1:26
Reverend carol Howard to the show. Thanks so much for being
1:29
here.
1:30
>> Carol Howard: It's great to be here. Thank you so much for the
1:33
invitation. Yeah.
1:35
>> Loren: Glad to have you. So, just for our listeners today, I am recording
1:38
from home with the kids, home from spring break. So
1:41
there may be some guest voices in the
1:44
background. So I appreciate your
1:46
patience and continue to listen through here as we have this
1:49
conversation with Carol. But, uh, Carol, I appreciate
1:52
your presence here. Anything else you'd like our listeners to know about
1:55
you?
1:57
>> Carol Howard: Um, well, no,
1:59
not too much. I was trying to
2:02
just think of something fascinating and
2:04
interesting, but I don't know.
2:08
I was always bad at that party game.
2:11
>> Loren: It's so much exhausting trying to think about
2:14
what makes that whole.
2:18
What's so special about me for those kind of things.
2:21
>> Carol Howard: Right, right, right. I can tell
2:23
you like my favorite
2:26
food. I don't know.
2:28
>> Loren: What is your favorite food?
2:29
>> Loren: How about that?
2:30
>> Carol Howard: Okay. I would say I like
2:33
italian food. It's good.
2:35
You know? So, like, lately I've
2:38
been like, my favorite food will change every day,
2:41
but lately I've been really
2:44
wanting some, like,
2:47
lasagna. Um, what about you? What's your
2:49
favorite food? Yeah, my six year old,
2:52
probably salmon.
2:53
>> Loren: Uh, my six year old son is, like, obsessed right now with dad.
2:56
What's your favorite food? He's always asking us that, so.
2:59
And he's like, my favorite food is chicken nuggets. Like, shocking for
3:02
a six year old.
3:03
>> Carol Howard: Right, right.
3:06
>> Loren: So what about you? What's your favorite
3:09
food? Buffalo wings.
3:11
>> Carol Howard: Oh, yeah.
3:12
>> Loren: Love a good, good buffalo wing.
3:15
Not too crazy spicy, but a little
3:17
kick is good. And like, the messier the
3:20
better. Like, to me, it's like more fun if I'm just come out looking like
3:23
a, you know, like a toddler.
3:28
>> Carol Howard: Yeah. You know, I'm a vegetarian, but
3:31
actually buffalo wild wings has
3:34
these cauliflower.
3:37
They're delicious. They're so
3:39
good. I love them.
3:41
>> Loren: And you can, if you're into the mess, you can probably get into
3:44
the mess there too, with.
3:45
>> Carol Howard: Oh, yeah, completely. They put all the same
3:48
spices and rubs.
3:50
>> Loren: Um, it's great.
3:51
>> Loren: All right, well, this is not a food podcast, so we'll
3:54
keep going there.
3:55
>> Carol Howard: Okay.
3:57
>> Loren: Share, if you would, about your faith journey, what
4:00
that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today.
4:04
>> Carol Howard: Well, let's see. I grew up
4:06
very, very
4:08
conservative, um,
4:10
fundamentalist, southern Baptist, the
4:13
mean kind of Baptist. I guess there's all
4:15
kinds of. I was with
4:18
the mean kind, um,
4:23
and so, which
4:26
didn't work very well since I was also
4:29
called to ministry. So they didn't really believe
4:32
in women ministers. And so
4:35
I always felt really bad about that.
4:38
And I went to a fundamentalist Bible
4:40
college and,
4:42
um, and went
4:45
to Moody Bible institute
4:48
in Chicago.
4:51
And, um, it was
4:53
difficult because, you know,
4:56
basically there are a lot of, like,
4:58
homeschool kids or kids who went to
5:01
international mission schools or whatever there.
5:04
>> Loren: Yeah. Ah.
5:05
>> Carol Howard: And I was just kind of like a regular public school
5:07
kid, so I didn't
5:10
really know what it was going to be
5:13
like and to live with all those rules and
5:16
stuff. So I didn't, I didn't,
5:19
I didn't do very well there.
5:22
Um, but thankfully, while I was there, I did
5:25
meet somebody who encouraged me
5:27
to join a mainline denomination
5:30
and go to seminary. And,
5:33
um, so that was good.
5:36
That was good. Philip Yancey was my Sunday school
5:38
teacher.
5:39
>> Loren: Wow.
5:40
>> Loren: There.
5:40
>> Carol Howard: So, yeah, yeah, so, so there
5:43
were, there were a lot of good things that happened, um,
5:46
while I was there. And, uh, so
5:49
now I'm, um, a Presbyterian.
5:52
>> Loren: Uh, I can't remember if I told.
5:55
>> Loren: You this or another. Moody
5:57
graduate.
5:58
>> Carol Howard: Yeah.
5:59
>> Loren: Um, growing up fundamental baptist
6:02
myself, like, moody, I always had, like, such an aura of,
6:05
like, people who went to Moody were like the true,
6:07
whole people we are. So I am
6:10
just know that I am still impressed by your
6:13
holiness
6:20
spiritual practices that are meaningful for you. Something you
6:23
don't mind sharing.
6:25
>> Carol Howard: Um, well, there are a lot,
6:28
probably journaling
6:31
is the most, writing, uh,
6:34
is the most. I'm learning to breathe,
6:37
like, use my breath a lot
6:39
more, you know, in stressful situations and
6:42
things like that. So I wouldn't say that's
6:45
my favorite at this point, but it's
6:47
helpful.
6:48
>> Loren: Mhm.
6:49
>> Carol Howard: Um, but certainly journaling.
6:51
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
6:53
>> Loren: Well, this is all. We're already off to
6:56
a good start, so I'm looking forward to our continued
6:59
conversation here. So I had Carolyn, uh,
7:02
brought her on the pod again to talk about, uh,
7:05
her book and also kind of the topic of clergy
7:07
health. So let's begin just kind of
7:10
talking about clergy trends. And I
7:13
know there's been some recent data, uh, released
7:16
by the Hartford Institute,
7:18
um, about overall clergy
7:21
health. Certainly we're seeing a lot about clergy
7:24
shortages.
7:25
>> Loren: Um, I was listening to, speaking of.
7:28
>> Loren: Them southern Baptist podcast, and I was.
7:31
>> Loren: Kind of shocked just about how
7:34
the.
7:34
>> Loren: Clergy shortage is everywhere. Uh, even in
7:37
the southern Baptist tradition, there's a real
7:40
serious clergy shortage.
7:44
I guess, broadly speaking. What are your initial
7:46
thoughts, or what have you been thinking about related to these trends and how
7:49
they impact clergy?
7:53
>> Carol Howard: Well, I guess it's not a surprise that there's a
7:56
shortage. There's been a big
7:58
transition, I know, in
8:00
our, um, denomination
8:04
Presbyterian church, which I think
8:06
has some of the same sort of,
8:09
um, trends.
8:12
They were asking for three years of
8:15
a master's, which makes sense.
8:18
And then, and then you had to go
8:21
to get a CPE,
8:23
which I know people love
8:26
that. And then you
8:28
really needed to do an
8:31
internship, and a year long internship
8:34
was best. And so you're
8:36
like, coming out of the place
8:39
with four years of
8:41
seminary debt. Um,
8:44
and a lot of us were saying, you know,
8:47
we can't do this. We don't get paid
8:50
like you can't. And then we
8:53
have a bunch of ordination exams on top of
8:56
that. And so people would be
8:59
stalling to get a job for, you
9:02
know, even longer, um,
9:05
just to pass these ords. And,
9:08
you know, it's not like the bar exam.
9:11
We don't. We're not getting a big paycheck at the end of
9:13
it. And so really,
9:16
the amount of money that we
9:19
had to go into debt in
9:21
order to get a, ah, salary, that
9:24
wasn't usually, um,
9:28
it wasn't usually even up
9:31
to the teacher
9:33
salaries. Um,
9:37
it's not sustainable. And then,
9:40
um. So then when you start talking to college
9:43
students who are really interested in the
9:46
ministry, you kind of have to say,
9:48
well, be careful, and
9:51
even I'm going to be.
9:54
There are seminaries who I did not
9:57
pay any tuition at all,
10:00
which is incredible. But you still have to
10:03
live, you still have to eat, and you still have to.
10:06
So, um, it's
10:09
just really expensive.
10:13
So you had that sort of going on. And at the
10:15
same time, there's a crisis
10:18
of status. When
10:21
people ask, um,
10:24
what you do, it's kind of embarrassing
10:27
because my daughter
10:30
doesn't usually tell people that I'm a minister
10:32
because, um. Uh,
10:35
she said, it's not because I'm ashamed of who you
10:38
are or what you do. She said,
10:41
what I'm worried about is what people think you
10:44
are after saying it.
10:46
And, um, with so many,
10:49
uh, scandals and so many horrible
10:52
things that have gone on, people
10:55
have this ideal that we are,
10:58
um, all money
11:00
grubbing, terrible
11:04
people. So there's
11:06
this kind of crisis in status that's going
11:09
along with this financial crisis.
11:12
Um, and then sort of
11:15
nationally, there
11:18
is, uh,
11:21
attendance is going down, um,
11:24
and budgets are
11:27
harder to keep up with, and buildings are
11:30
getting older, and so we
11:32
have this kind, um, of trifecta
11:35
happening. And so we walk
11:38
into the church, and even though this has
11:41
been going on for 50 years, they're kind of blaming it
11:44
on the pastor who walks in yesterday.
11:47
It's like, well, hey, you've been,
11:50
uh. You've been putting off this maintenance for a
11:53
lot longer than, you know, since I've been
11:56
here, so.
11:58
And I don't want to, like, I just
12:01
feel like I just piled on.
12:04
There is also tremendous,
12:07
wonderful things about being a minister, too, which
12:10
is why I'm still here. But I'm just answering
12:13
the question.
12:14
>> Loren: Yeah, no, I am still
12:16
pro pastor, but I think the real
12:19
challenges. I'd agree with everything you said
12:22
there. I'm thinking, as someone who,
12:25
similarly to you, I think of
12:27
my eight semesters in seminary, I think I only actually
12:30
paid a dime, like three or five of
12:33
those seminaries, I can't remember. So I didn't really necessarily come out
12:36
with a lot of debt load, per se. But,
12:39
you know, I've thought about it otherwise in my more
12:42
cynical moments, that it's not
12:44
necessarily even the. Even the debt or lack
12:47
thereof. It's like, you know, four years of my life that I
12:50
might have gotten another degree or, you know,
12:53
advanced my career. Otherwise, not the. Not
12:56
to discount or diminish. Like, I
12:59
really appreciate the MDIV and what I learned there.
13:02
Um, but those are serious challenges.
13:05
And especially when you think about, you know, on top
13:08
of, like you said, the institutional
13:11
decline, um, the
13:13
challenges of, you know, of
13:16
collapse in many ways, right, of churches
13:19
and denominations and institutions.
13:22
Um, you know, I'm thinking about, as
13:25
I referenced already in
13:27
that Harford Institute study, there
13:30
was a surprising
13:33
amount of clergy who seem to be doing quite well. And if
13:36
I remember correctly, it was.
13:39
>> Loren: Something about established
13:42
clergy.
13:42
>> Loren: I don't remember the exact numbers, but clergy who have been in the
13:45
game, so to speak, a long time or a while
13:48
soon to be happier or more content than
13:51
those who were early on in their
13:53
career. So do you have any
13:56
sense about what that might be about?
14:00
>> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean,
14:02
um, I
14:04
can guess. One thing is, you
14:07
know, if you bought your house
14:11
a while ago or if you're living in a manse, you
14:14
have the housing issue, at least here in. I'm in New
14:17
York City or outside of New York City,
14:20
so that the housing issue is a big one
14:23
around here.
14:25
Um, so that has a
14:28
big determining, uh,
14:30
factor. Um, if you're trying to
14:33
buy a house on a salary
14:36
right now,
14:40
it's really difficult. Um,
14:44
and so I think that,
14:47
uh, um,
14:50
with the cost of housing going up so much
14:53
with also clergy
14:56
salaries staying stagnant
14:59
for, um, so long, uh,
15:03
it's just not feasible
15:05
for clergy. And then,
15:09
um, so
15:12
that's just one aspect.
15:15
Um, there is a lot of ageism when it
15:18
comes to, uh, clergy.
15:21
Um, and that's difficult.
15:24
Uh, I think,
15:27
um, another thing that's happening is
15:30
there's this sense that,
15:33
I mean, I serve a church that
15:36
has been open since
15:39
1680.
15:40
>> Loren: Wow.
15:41
>> Carol Howard: Yeah. So, um,
15:44
long time. And our churches have
15:46
been
15:49
surviving for a long, long time,
15:52
and yet oftentimes
15:55
we'll get, um, not we in particular,
15:58
but clergy.
15:59
>> Loren: Hm.
16:00
>> Carol Howard: We'll get this business person that
16:02
comes in and they're like, oh, you know,
16:05
I've been, you know, doing my business
16:08
for, you know, 20
16:11
years, so I know better.
16:14
Or, you know, we'll start,
16:16
you know, we have just such a highly
16:19
capitalistic society that
16:22
we have this sense that, you know, the business people can
16:25
save us. And so I think that's kind of
16:28
frustrating. Um, so there's a lot
16:30
of things, I believe,
16:33
uh, that are hitting
16:35
particularly young clergy.
16:38
Um, you know,
16:42
many times, um,
16:46
uh,
16:49
the age of our congregants
16:52
are getting older, and so,
16:55
um, they don't quite always understand the
16:58
challenges that young clergy are going through.
17:00
>> Loren: Right.
17:02
>> Carol Howard: So, yeah, there's just a lot. There's a
17:05
lot that younger clergy have to deal
17:07
with, I think. And
17:10
the, um,
17:13
many times, younger clergy not
17:16
only have student loan debt from
17:19
seminary, but they had additional
17:22
debt from undergraduate,
17:25
um, older
17:27
clergy may not have. So it's a
17:30
completely, completely
17:33
different,
17:34
um, financial
17:37
situation, and the
17:40
church hasn't dealt with
17:43
that yet. And our
17:46
denomination, the presbyterian
17:48
church, they just. This
17:51
week, um.
17:52
>> Loren: Yeah, I saw this.
17:54
>> Carol Howard: Yeah, yeah, there's, you know, the
17:56
Internet's blowing up because, uh,
17:59
they, they've just, um,
18:02
said that, you know, clergy with
18:04
families are, they came out
18:07
with how much, um, they would need to be
18:10
paying an insurance. And it's like
18:13
65% of, you know,
18:16
our salaries are going to
18:19
insurance. So I mean, clearly we just
18:22
have not kept up, you know, and,
18:25
um, so
18:28
it's a real tragedy.
18:30
>> Loren: Yeah. I laugh about
18:33
the age thing because, uh, I guess
18:36
I can say my, well, you know, I feel like in
18:39
mainline world I was like, too young, too young, too young, too
18:42
young. And then now that I'm 40,
18:45
41, like in any other
18:47
context, like I'm over the hill.
18:51
>> Carol Howard: Yeah. Yeah. It's really fascinating, isn't
18:54
it?
18:54
>> Loren: Yeah. Um, let's,
18:57
gosh, I feel like we.
18:59
>> Loren: Could keep rolling on this like negative train for the
19:02
whole episode and I don't want this
19:05
to. There are good things, there are good things, but I mean, the
19:08
challenges are for real. I mean, uh, yeah, I saw
19:11
a post from a, uh, pastor I
19:14
know in Chicago, like Chicago
19:16
Chicago. And he was saying that like some churches are thinking
19:19
about turning their Sunday school classrooms
19:22
into like apartments for their clergy, essentially,
19:25
which, you know, makes sense because I don't know how
19:28
in the world, like, especially if you're talking
19:31
like Chicago, New York, I mean,
19:34
these big.
19:34
>> Loren: Cities, I mean, I mean, I live.
19:37
>> Loren: In Denver Metro and I
19:40
interviewed recently for church and I don't want to say how
19:43
much they're offering, but it's like this is not anywhere near a
19:46
living wage of what you should be
19:49
offering.
19:50
>> Carol Howard: Uh, right, right.
19:51
>> Loren: So the challenges are real.
19:53
>> Loren: Um, and I think we'd both agree.
19:55
>> Loren: Right.
19:56
>> Loren: I, uh, was just talking to
19:59
a.
20:00
>> Loren: Denominational leader in my context
20:03
yesterday and he just kind of emphasized
20:06
like since.
20:06
>> Loren: COVID these trends have really kind of just
20:09
been exacerbated.
20:12
>> Carol Howard: Right, absolutely. And,
20:14
um,
20:18
not only have
20:20
the budget challenges and also
20:23
the attendance challenges,
20:26
um, but also the
20:29
housing and inflation and everything's gone
20:32
up. And uh, so,
20:35
you know, when you listen to economists, they'll say,
20:38
oh, well, the salaries have gone up
20:41
right along with inflation. And I'm like, oh, not, not
20:44
for us, but I really
20:46
believe, and I don't know,
20:49
people deny this all the time,
20:52
but we are sitting on like
20:55
mountains of money.
20:57
>> Loren: Mhm.
20:58
>> Carol Howard: Like just mountains of money,
21:01
all these pockets of money. And you
21:04
know, people will say, oh, well, those are designated for certain
21:07
things and, yeah, okay, but
21:10
somebody needs to start putting money
21:12
into clergy
21:15
and clergy housing and
21:18
subsistence and, you know,
21:21
like, because we're
21:24
not going to have churches if we don't have
21:27
pastors. Well, we're just not. And I know
21:30
everybody's like, oh, we need to rethink this, right, blah,
21:33
blah, blah. But it's, we're
21:35
just, we can't starve our clergy and
21:38
expect to have churches.
21:40
>> Loren: I think.
21:40
>> Carol Howard: And I know, you know, everybody wants to deny.
21:43
That's the truth. But it's
21:47
the truth.
21:48
>> Loren: I think the demographic or the. Not the
21:50
demographic, um, I think the
21:54
dynamic that I worry about is
21:56
essentially what I feel like you probably seen
21:59
in some context where just, like, because the church
22:02
is paying so little or offering basically next to
22:05
nothing, clergy kind of, like, undercut the
22:08
market.
22:09
>> Carol Howard: Uh-huh.
22:11
>> Loren: Someone is desperate to have a job or wants to be
22:14
pastor, so they'll go work for next to
22:16
nothing. Or the church will
22:19
essentially just hire someone, elevate someone out of their
22:22
congregation, which I don't want to discount that,
22:25
because obviously
22:27
folks can have ministry skills and
22:30
giftings, whether or not they have an M div, for
22:33
instance.
22:33
>> Carol Howard: Right, right.
22:34
>> Loren: Um, but it also does kind of like, using an
22:37
economic term, again, does kind of, like, depress the market.
22:41
So it can be a real challenge there.
22:44
>> Carol Howard: Yeah, yeah, it can. Um, and,
22:47
you know, I think that that goes back to.
22:50
I mean, in our
22:52
system, this really weird thing was happening
22:55
where we were expecting more and
22:58
more internships
23:01
and CPE credits, and
23:05
it was costing more and more, but at the
23:08
same time, we were growing these kind
23:11
of robust, um, lay
23:13
pastor, uh, uh, programs
23:16
where. And it's like,
23:19
well, why would anybody become
23:22
a trained, um, um,
23:24
minister if you could just be a lay pastor
23:27
and not have to go through the same sort of hoops
23:30
and in the same sort of, which.
23:33
Which is fine if we. If
23:36
that's a strategic right plan.
23:39
But it seemed like we had these two
23:42
tracks going, and we weren't talking to each other.
23:45
And so now. Now our seminaries
23:48
are emptying out, and,
23:51
um, we just don't always
23:54
have, and I'm 100%
23:56
with you, like, I train,
23:59
um, lay preachers and
24:02
incredibly thankful for them. So I
24:04
don't want to diminish that. But
24:07
do we want an educated clergy?
24:10
And if we do, we need to start putting
24:13
our money and our resources and,
24:17
um. And
24:19
our power behind that.
24:21
>> Loren: Yeah. Because we're really advocating for those who
24:24
are jumping on, Carol and I. We're really advocating for
24:27
a both and situation.
24:30
We want to advocate for, or we want to empower
24:35
laity and ministry and that sort of thing. But we also are trying
24:38
to advocate for, like, hey, let's. You know, let's.
24:41
If we're going to say, like, uh, ordained
24:43
clergy, um, matter. Like,
24:47
let's put our money where our mouth is too. Right?
24:50
>> Carol Howard: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well,
24:52
yeah.
24:53
>> Loren: One of the things that I think is important in this conversation,
24:57
um, is the idea of
24:59
controlling what we can control. Right. And that's
25:02
where I really appreciate family systems
25:05
theory in, at least as I understand it.
25:08
One of the most profound principles, to me at
25:11
least, is like, thinking about what can I control?
25:15
Um, so you obviously a, uh, good familiarity
25:18
with that concept, and we're going to talk about here in
25:21
a moment your book, which features a lot of
25:23
family systems theory, but talk a little bit about
25:26
your experience with family systems theory and how you think it
25:29
can be a help to pastors and clergy,
25:32
you know, especially as we think about all these
25:34
challenges and dynamics we've been talking
25:37
about.
25:38
>> Carol Howard: Yeah. Well, I definitely
25:41
am indebted to, uh, my
25:44
friend James Minimore, who co
25:46
authored the book. And he's a
25:49
therapist. And it was interesting
25:52
because I was writing this book,
25:55
um, way before I came to my present
25:58
church, and he was writing a book
26:01
as well. And, um, James is
26:04
a therapist with the Good Samaritan
26:07
center, or the Samaritan
26:10
center, and he works
26:12
outside of our church. And so
26:16
we were reflecting on the books
26:19
that we were writing, and we decided to,
26:21
uh, merge them. And so I learned a
26:24
tremendous amount from James.
26:27
And a lot of
26:30
what we went through with COVID really
26:33
reflects family system theories.
26:35
>> Loren: Yeah.
26:36
>> Carol Howard: And, um, you know,
26:39
so if you think of, um,
26:42
uh, our churches not as
26:45
individuals, but as
26:47
organizations, as, um, these
26:50
systems, you can start
26:52
to see some patterns that are
26:55
taking place. So there
26:58
are many things, um, like,
27:01
uh, homeostasis, like,
27:04
uh, uh, these systems,
27:07
these organizations, they really like to
27:10
maintain homeostasis.
27:13
And we talk about it like a rubber
27:16
band on the wrist.
27:19
The harder you pull on that rubber
27:21
band when it snaps back, the harder it
27:24
hurts. And the more
27:27
it wants to come back to
27:29
homeostasis, wants
27:32
to go back to that shape and form
27:35
it used to be. So
27:38
what we had. And also when we
27:41
have these systems, um,
27:43
fear really does
27:46
an anxiety, does
27:49
something, um,
27:51
uh, it really stresses out this
27:53
system. So oftentimes when you have
27:56
fear and anxiety, you have a lot
27:59
of polarization. You have people
28:02
pitting against people. You
28:04
have, um, uh, people cutting
28:07
people off, people getting really angry
28:10
and tense, people fleeing.
28:13
You have the whole fight, flight or flee
28:16
sort of situation that happens.
28:19
And so here we
28:21
were on this trajectory
28:24
that, again, has been
28:27
happening, um, way before
28:29
you became a minister, and even I became a
28:32
minister, and that is,
28:35
you know, this decline.
28:38
And, um,
28:41
it had been going on for a while, and then
28:44
COVID hits, and it
28:47
accelerated church closings. It
28:50
accelerated the fear,
28:53
really, I think, for a lot of
28:56
congregations. And
28:58
so when that
29:01
anxiety sort of spiked,
29:04
um, then all of these things began to happen.
29:07
People began to,
29:10
um, uh,
29:12
resist any sort of change.
29:15
They began to polarize.
29:18
They began to fight with one another.
29:22
Um, and so
29:24
it's been a very
29:26
difficult, even
29:29
traumatic time, I think, for a lot of
29:31
clergy. And, um,
29:34
everybody kind of assumed that as
29:37
soon as we opened up, it would be fine.
29:40
Everything would be.
29:41
>> Loren: I did go back to.
29:43
>> Carol Howard: Yeah, I did, too. Everything will be back to
29:46
normal. And then you're like, oh, this is not
29:48
normal.
29:51
So. So there is this
29:54
just extreme challenges that we're going
29:57
through, and there's not
30:00
a lot of support because then, um, at the same time,
30:03
we also have, um, you
30:06
know, all, uh, of the.
30:08
>> Loren: Other things that we talked about.
30:10
>> Loren: Yeah.
30:10
>> Carol Howard: Ah, yeah. So, uh, you
30:13
know, a lot of clergy are
30:15
suffering right now, and, um.
30:19
And, you know, the good thing about
30:22
it is, well, there's
30:24
no. I don't want to, like, slap a
30:27
happy face on top of it. But
30:31
the reason why we called our
30:34
book wounded pastors is
30:36
because of that kind of
30:39
jungian theory that Henry Nowan,
30:42
Henri Nouwen picked, um, up so
30:45
beautifully. Um, that
30:47
idea of wounded healers, you
30:50
know, and, you
30:53
know, we're in this time
30:55
of post trauma,
30:58
and, um, we
31:01
can have some growth out of it. We will
31:04
have some growth.
31:05
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:05
>> Carol Howard: It's just going to take a while.
31:07
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, I think that's an
31:09
important. I think that's such an important
31:12
point to speak about,
31:14
and I want to talk more about that.
31:17
But there's also some quotes here from the
31:19
book I want to highlight just
31:22
because they resonated with me.
31:26
So here, this one I shouldn't say highlight. This one
31:29
I hated, but I know it's true.
31:32
Church members will take as much of your energy, time
31:35
and work as they can. This is not because they're evil, but because
31:38
they're human. And boy, oh, boy,
31:41
does that slap a lot of us pastors
31:44
in the face. Right? Uh, as
31:47
much as I understand that and appreciate that quote, I
31:50
also don't like it. So
31:53
talk through that with me and for our listeners.
31:57
>> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, most
32:00
of us who are clergy,
32:03
or a lot of us as clergy, you know,
32:06
you do have undeniably, like, some
32:09
narcissistic, you know, clergy out
32:12
there, and, um, but I
32:15
think a lot of clergy like,
32:18
we. We want to be servants. We want to.
32:21
We want to serve the church, we want to give
32:24
to the church, we want to love the church.
32:27
You know, we want to take up our cross daily. You know,
32:30
uh, we have all these, like, images m of.
32:33
Of servanthood.
32:36
Um, but one of the
32:39
issues that can come up
32:42
with that is we
32:45
end up, um, really hurting
32:48
ourselves and hurting our families
32:50
and all of that. And
32:54
we, again, live in a hyper capitalist
32:57
society where people
33:00
are trying to get as much productivity
33:02
for as little amount of money as possible.
33:06
And people live in that world
33:08
every single day. And so when they
33:11
come to us, they want us to have as much
33:14
productivity with as little amount,
33:17
as money as possible. And,
33:20
um, you know, and again, it's
33:23
not evil. It's just
33:26
the way that our world is working
33:29
right now. And so m
33:32
people will end
33:35
up, um, trying,
33:38
whether they're trying to do the best for the church or
33:41
they're trying to, or they're just in that
33:44
mindset kind of constantly.
33:47
Um, uh, it can happen.
33:50
It can happen. Maybe I shouldn't have said
33:53
it will happen because there
33:56
are some great churches out there.
33:57
>> Loren: Yeah, that's immortal.
33:59
>> Carol Howard: Uh, but it can.
34:00
>> Loren: Yeah, it definitely can. So this other quote
34:03
here, um, you write,
34:06
what happens if we don't forgive? And I think,
34:09
man, I've been there. I'll just confess, like, I've
34:12
been there.
34:13
>> Loren: Holding a grudge against,
34:16
you know, a congregant, a parishioner.
34:19
>> Loren: Uh, you're right. You know, what happens if we don't forgive? Unfortunately, not
34:22
forgiving tethers us to bitterness and to
34:25
the people who have hurt us.
34:28
In extreme cases, a person might not just be a wounded
34:31
pastor, but a wound collecting pastor.
34:34
Such people never seek closure. Instead, they
34:36
persist in, uh, seeing malice
34:39
and innocent acts, looking for ways to be offended
34:42
and becoming ever more sensitive to
34:45
slights. Uh, I think that's such a powerful
34:48
quote. And I'll bookend this here with
34:51
something I read from another, not your same
34:53
Presbyterian, but Presbyterian, uh, who used to
34:56
be in your neck of the woods.
34:57
>> Loren: The late Tim Keller,
35:00
who certainly I.
35:01
>> Loren: Would hold some different theological principles then, but he said something that
35:04
really resonated with me about the importance of forgiveness. Because
35:07
if we don't forgive, then our actions are
35:10
inspired by not, um,
35:13
for reconciliation, but retribution.
35:17
Um, so talk about forgiveness and how
35:20
that can impact and why that's so
35:23
important.
35:25
>> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean, forgiveness is hard. It's
35:28
just a hard and tricky subject. I
35:31
just read, ah, kaia
35:33
oaks, um, just wrote, ah,
35:36
a book. I think it's called sorry, not sorry, which is really
35:39
interesting. But, ah, one book
35:42
that really impacted me was Desmond
35:45
and Mephone Tutu's book.
35:48
Um, that's a father and daughter bishop. Ah,
35:51
Desmond Tutu, um, wrote,
35:54
ah, four fold path of forgiveness
35:57
called a book of forgiving.
36:00
And, um, so that's
36:03
just had this tremendous impact on my life.
36:06
And of course, they're talking about the truth and
36:09
reconciliation in South
36:12
Africa and these really
36:15
extreme, um,
36:18
acts of heroic forgiveness.
36:20
And they kind of explain
36:23
over and over again that forgiveness isn't
36:26
for the other person, it's for
36:29
you. Um,
36:32
and then I was reading about wound
36:35
collecting, which I thought was just sort of this
36:37
fascinating idea. And it was a
36:40
psychologist who was looking
36:43
at, um, he was kind of looking
36:46
at terrorists.
36:47
>> Loren: Mhm.
36:48
>> Carol Howard: And then he began to look at like,
36:51
incels and look at,
36:54
um, different people.
36:56
And he came up with this thing
36:59
of like, wound collectors. And
37:02
we all know these people, not the
37:04
terrorists, but these people
37:07
who cannot let it go
37:10
no matter what. And so they begin
37:13
to hold grudges and more and more
37:16
grudges, and then they
37:19
begin to see things and
37:21
people who don't
37:24
mean to be even doing
37:27
anything wrong.
37:29
So it's just a trap we can get
37:32
into and become miserable. Um,
37:35
so forgiveness is tricky. And
37:38
we try to suss
37:41
out the different sorts of forgiveness,
37:43
whether it's legal forgiveness or
37:46
for forgiveness, or whether it's,
37:49
um, theological forgiveness or, you know.
37:52
And so there's different types of
37:54
forgiveness.
37:56
Um, but certainly
38:00
for me personally, uh,
38:03
it's still something that's
38:06
important to strive for.
38:09
>> Loren: Yeah.
38:09
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. So another
38:12
quote here. And again, I hate this quote, but I think
38:15
it's important you're right.
38:18
Or you and James. Right. Uh, as we continue the process
38:21
toward healing, we need to go back to our stories,
38:24
reclaim our character in them, rewrite them,
38:26
and find meaning through them.
38:29
So I'll speak for myself here, Carol,
38:33
as, uh, someone who, like you, grew
38:36
up in a very concerted context, for me, at
38:39
least. Ah, I really. I wouldn't
38:42
say, like, accepted, but I really found a way to, like, make
38:44
peace with, like, my
38:47
past.
38:49
>> Loren: Um, not in a way that, like.
38:52
>> Loren: I necessarily appreciate
38:54
everything that I was taught, but I have
38:57
this weird appreciation. I
39:00
don't know if that even makes sense.
39:02
>> Carol Howard: Yeah.
39:03
>> Loren: For like, you
39:06
know, like, I have a.
39:07
>> Loren: Like, I have a King James bible that I just
39:10
hold onto dearly,
39:13
uh, because it's so familiar
39:16
and, um, meaningful for me. Yet
39:19
also there's
39:21
this weird. There's certainly this weird dissonance
39:24
there. Uh, but talk more about that and
39:27
what you mean by that quote.
39:31
>> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean, I had to do
39:34
a similar thing. It was really interesting. Right after
39:37
I left moody, I know
39:39
that I definitely kind of
39:42
rejected everything, and I wouldn't even
39:45
tell people where I went to school.
39:48
Um, I would try to hide it and
39:51
that sort of thing. And then at
39:54
some point, like, you have
39:57
to sort of come back to it and embrace
40:00
it and
40:02
realize it's part of you,
40:07
even though it doesn't, um,
40:11
it's still part of you. Right.
40:13
And, um, even if you reject it, even if you don't
40:16
agree with it, it's a
40:19
peace, and it's gonna miss.
40:22
It's gonna be missing unless
40:25
you embrace, uh, it again. But you can't
40:28
embrace it in the same way. Right. So you have
40:31
to begin to think about retelling, um,
40:34
that story. And
40:37
the stories are
40:38
incredibly powerful in
40:42
how we tell our stories, especially
40:44
stories when we've been wounded.
40:47
Um. Uh, the
40:50
way in which we tell our stories
40:53
will inform, um, our
40:56
healing. Viktor, uh,
40:58
frankl,
41:01
he wrote man's search for meaning, and, um,
41:05
uh, just such a
41:08
powerful book. I go back to it. I think I feel
41:11
like I read it every year, um, and learn something
41:14
different from it every time. He's
41:16
just, uh, amazing.
41:19
But he talks about this,
41:21
rewriting your story and
41:24
finding meaning.
41:27
>> Loren: Um.
41:31
>> Carol Howard: And doing that. Um,
41:34
sometimes you can even do
41:37
it. I was able to
41:40
write books about things, and
41:43
you sort of reflect back.
41:47
>> Loren: Um.
41:48
>> Carol Howard: I'm kind of hearing in my ear
41:52
there are so many, uh,
41:54
womanist theologians
41:57
who would say,
41:59
um, I think, who would fight back on
42:02
that. The idea of
42:06
trying to redeem suffering.
42:09
Um, and I want to
42:12
honor that. Uh, but
42:16
I also, uh, just want
42:19
to talk from my personal experience,
42:22
the sense of when
42:25
I've gone through difficult
42:27
issues, difficult problems, if
42:30
I've been able to retell that story in
42:33
a way in which I'm not a victim,
42:36
but I'm a survivor.
42:38
>> Loren: Yeah.
42:38
>> Carol Howard: And. And then
42:41
a, uh, wounded healer, you know?
42:44
Um, it can be extremely
42:47
powerful, not only for, you know,
42:49
the pastor, but for churches.
42:53
>> Loren: Right.
42:53
>> Carol Howard: And their identity.
42:55
>> Loren: Right. Well, this is a great conversation,
42:58
and for sake of time, let's leave it there.
43:01
The name of the book is wounded pastors.
43:04
Hopefully, uh, I have the right title here. Uh, was it
43:07
navigating burnout, finding healing, and discerning
43:10
the future of your ministry? Is that right?
43:13
Okay, good. I was, like.
43:14
>> Carol Howard: I had to look because I forget it, too.
43:16
>> Loren: Hopefully, the subtitle hasn't changed since I've seen it.
43:20
>> Carol Howard: Nope. Nope.
43:20
>> Loren: Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some closing
43:23
questions.
43:27
All right, we're back with Reverend Carol Howard. So thanks
43:30
so much for this conversation. Um,
43:33
again, I want to recommend her book, wounded
43:35
pastors with James Fenimore.
43:38
So check that out. Uh, Carol, I always tell folks, you can take these
43:41
questions seriously or not if you'd like
43:44
to, but, uh, if you're a pope for a day,
43:47
what might that day look like for you?
43:50
>> Carol Howard: Oh, wow. That would be a
43:53
good day.
43:55
Definitely, like,
43:58
liquidate the assets, give the assets
44:01
to victims of pedophilia,
44:04
put those pedophiles in prison.
44:07
I would definitely ordain
44:10
women and, uh, allow
44:13
for LGBTQ,
44:16
um, marriage. Be a good day.
44:19
I'm sure I could get it all done.
44:21
>> Loren: Speaking of, uh, um,
44:24
assets, you think? I feel like the catholic church would have enough assets
44:27
where they could, uh, uh, fund clergy for
44:30
quite a long time, right?
44:32
>> Carol Howard: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so,
44:34
yeah.
44:36
>> Loren: Um, um, a theologian or historical christian figure
44:39
you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
44:43
>> Carol Howard: Well, you know, I did this, uh, uh,
44:46
I would. I would have said Meister
44:48
Eckhart just because
44:51
he's been the person who
44:54
has really,
44:56
um, been the most
44:59
influential on my
45:02
ministry, I think. Um, but
45:05
julian of norwich, too. I just did
45:08
a little tiny devotional on
45:11
julian of Norwich. And I wrote it during,
45:14
um, uh, I wrote it during
45:17
COVID-19 and it
45:19
was so helpful because
45:22
she also wrote during, um,
45:25
the black plague or went through.
45:29
Had her visions soon after.
45:32
Anyways, super, super helpful. So I
45:35
have probably my star card I'll stick with.
45:37
>> Loren: Well, those are two good options.
45:39
>> Loren: Yeah.
45:40
>> Loren: What do you think history will remember from our current time
45:43
and place?
45:45
>> Carol Howard: Oh, ah, that's a good question.
45:47
I mean, I'm hoping that,
45:52
um, I talked about
45:54
post traumatic growth,
45:58
and I really believe that
46:00
we are going to go through a spiritual
46:03
deepening where we begin to
46:06
understand God in a different way,
46:09
where we begin to connect
46:12
with creation in a different way. I mean,
46:15
we definitely need,
46:18
um, to begin to think about our
46:20
environment,
46:23
um, and the way in which we
46:26
care for, uh,
46:29
creation. So I see a lot
46:32
of really interesting things
46:35
coming up, uh, about that.
46:38
Um, uh, you know, I just
46:41
believe that this is going
46:44
to be a hard, hard, very fruitful
46:46
time,
46:48
um, where we begin to
46:52
do a lot of correcting
46:55
of,
46:57
um, uh,
47:00
what we've kind of veered
47:02
off on the last.
47:06
I don't know how many years,
47:09
um, you know.
47:10
>> Loren: Yeah.
47:11
>> Carol Howard: When church is all about, like,
47:14
I don't know,
47:18
worship wars.
47:19
>> Loren: Yeah.
47:19
>> Carol Howard: Ah, whatever. We've been talking about, you
47:22
know, making sure the gays
47:24
are in their place.
47:27
Yeah. I mean, you know, that's
47:29
always. This is the main thing we've been talking about for so
47:32
many years. So we just need to
47:35
do a lot of correcting, and I think
47:38
we're going to. I think
47:41
we're there, or, uh, we're in that
47:44
crisis moment.
47:45
>> Loren: This leads into my final question.
47:50
What do you hope then? You've kind of
47:53
spoken to. Maybe not. What do you hope?
47:56
What do you hope to see? What? Answer that
47:59
question. How you'd like to, I suppose.
48:01
>> Carol Howard: Yeah. Well, even now, if
48:04
you think about all the congregations in
48:07
the world, um, you know, the
48:10
church at large is
48:13
probably one of the largest
48:15
landowners, uh,
48:18
globally. And,
48:20
um, if
48:23
we begin to take that seriously and we begin
48:26
to care, um,
48:28
for our,
48:32
uh, world, and then if we
48:35
begin to help our congregants
48:38
do that, uh, we could have
48:41
this huge impact, um,
48:44
if we can teach our children how
48:47
to connect with nature,
48:49
and, um,
48:52
they're going through this tremendous nature
48:55
deficit disorder, uh, right
48:57
now. Um, so there
49:00
are just so many things that we can
49:03
do, uh, particularly, I think,
49:06
with the environment and
49:08
connecting, um,
49:11
with the environment in a new way. I think that's
49:15
our big crisis that's coming up,
49:17
and, um, it may give us
49:20
an opportunity to think outside of
49:23
ourselves a little bit. Be good.
49:25
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
49:27
>> Loren: Well, I suppose that was not my last question. My last question is,
49:30
actually, where can people find out about you and connect
49:32
with you?
49:33
>> Loren: Get the book, all that?
49:36
>> Carol Howard: M. Yeah, I think,
49:38
uh, my.
49:41
Oh, there's a wounded pastor's, um,
49:44
website, so you can look
49:47
for that, I guess. Um, I have a
49:50
website, but it's sort of in transition right now.
49:54
Um, but
49:57
I'm on Facebook and Twitter and
49:59
Instagram, Carol
50:01
Howard, so if you
50:04
ever want to talk to me. We
50:07
connected through Facebook, right?
50:09
>> Loren: Yeah, I believe so.
50:11
>> Carol Howard: Yeah. Yeah, I'm easy to
50:14
contact.
50:15
>> Loren: Well, I really appreciate the conversation. Really
50:18
appreciate the book. Hope it's helpful to
50:20
other pastors like myself. So always leave folks with
50:23
the word of peace. So may God's peace be with
50:26
you.
50:28
>> Carol Howard: Thank you. Also with you.
50:29
>> Loren: Amen. Um.
50:32
>> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
50:35
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
50:37
visit future dash christian.com.
50:40
One more thing before you go. Do us a favor
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and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
50:46
feeling especially generous, leave a review.
50:49
It really helps us get the word out to more people about the
50:52
podcast. The
50:55
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
50:58
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
51:01
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
51:03
provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks
51:06
and go in peace.