Latest / History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present / Yes, “Forever" Has Been Around Forever, Pt. 1 (Ft. Fast Times at Ridgemont High)

Transcript

Yes, “Forever" Has Been Around Forever, Pt. 1 (Ft. Fast Times at Ridgemont High) · History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present

0:00
They say we're loud, opinionated, afraid Telling
0:05
us to hush, dim our historical light But darlings,
0:09
we're the Harpies, sharp and keen Unveiling the
0:12
truth behind the silver screen History Harpies
0:17
hear us roar Hi, everybody. Welcome to another
0:30
episode of History Harpies. I'm Lauren. And I'm
0:33
Christine. And this week, we are going to be
0:36
talking about all things senior year. We are
0:39
in the throes of graduation celebrations, all
0:44
the graduation stuff. prom, we have parties,
0:50
we have all sorts of milestones. So we felt it
0:53
would be appropriate to talk about some new content
0:57
that addresses senior year, some of the older
1:00
content that it was based upon, and then some
1:03
senior year classics. And I really feel like
1:06
as Gen Xers, we have been especially lucky with
1:09
content dealing with high school, senior year,
1:12
dances, all of this good stuff. Absolutely. we
1:16
should also note that because there's so much
1:18
stuff to talk about with high schools and senior
1:20
year that this is actually only going to be part
1:23
one of a new part. A new innovation in History
1:28
Harpies. A new innovation. A two -parter. But
1:31
this is a rich topic, and it's one that's very
1:34
dear to my heart. And some of my favorite movies,
1:39
which I think is true of anyone growing up in
1:41
the 80s, have to deal with high school, senior
1:45
year, and high school drama, college admissions,
1:49
the love. What comes next? What have we learned
1:53
in high school? What are we going to do in college?
1:57
The teacher that made a lasting impression. The
1:59
teacher who was weird and creepy. All of it.
2:02
All of it. And of course, the dress. Yes. The
2:05
dress, the entire corsage, apparatus of prom,
2:09
all this good stuff. And actually just a tiny
2:12
detail before we start talking. I would like
2:14
to point out that I think one of the biggest
2:16
differences between Gen X teachers and the teachers
2:19
of today is that our teachers could smoke in
2:23
school absolutely and with us and with us in
2:25
my high school we had a place called the quad
2:28
which was in the cafeteria it was an outdoor
2:32
space in an indoor space where students and teachers
2:36
smoked together. Those were the days. Those really
2:39
were the days. I mean, it was totally bonding.
2:41
I won't even get into the places where we drank
2:42
together. But there was all kinds of smoking
2:48
goodness that happened in those days. I really
2:51
miss that. But now, unfortunately, we are done
2:55
with. So anyway. So Christine, how has your week
2:59
been going? Well, this is thematically appropriate
3:02
that it has been a week full of ending of eighth
3:06
grade things for my kids. And so a couple of
3:11
baccalaureates, and it's always really cute to
3:14
see eighth graders doing little graduations.
3:16
Not as cute, of course, as like kindergartners
3:17
doing their graduation. But a couple of pool
3:21
parties for my kids, stuff, awards, all of this
3:25
good stuff. It's been kind of exhausting, but
3:27
really fun. And I have high schoolers now. Which
3:29
is amazing. Which is absolutely unbelievable.
3:33
It is unbelievable to me to think that you have
3:35
high schoolers. I know. Yeah, yeah. Well, I have
3:38
a graduating senior. So exciting. Which is also
3:42
unbelievable. So have been to the same awards.
3:46
things, graduation on Wednesday. But one of the
3:49
cuter traditions that will be happening on Tuesday
3:52
is he will walk around the elementary school
3:55
that he went to in his cap and gown with the
3:58
little kids who are graduating from fifth grade.
4:01
That is very cute. Which is very cute. So graduation
4:04
abounds in both of our households. And this is
4:07
a busy but fun time of year. It is. Let me ask
4:12
you a question. What does one wear? What are
4:14
you wearing to graduation? What do you mean?
4:17
Well, what or baccalaureate or celebrations?
4:21
What is appropriate graduation outfitting? That
4:24
is an excellent question. Because as you know,
4:28
Lauren, my kids go to two different schools.
4:29
Right. And I feel like the expectations for dress
4:34
are very different at both of these schools.
4:37
So I'm going to say very plainly that at one
4:40
baccalaureate, I was wearing a sort of simple
4:42
dress. And of course, I was the worst dressed
4:44
person there. Okay. So then I amped it up a little
4:48
bit for my other child's baccalaureate dressed
4:51
up a little bit more and a nice dress that I
4:56
was wearing for the very first time loved it.
4:58
And I looked over the top overdressed because
5:02
there are lots of people just wearing like two
5:04
shirts and shorts. And so of course I'm bad at
5:07
kind of getting this right, but I think always
5:10
a nice dress. A nice dress, a nice dress. The
5:14
problem with graduation is that it invites the
5:17
day dress. Which is a really difficult fashion
5:22
look to now, in my opinion. I can do the cocktail
5:26
dress, but for me, the day dress is sort of like
5:29
you don't want too many flowers and you don't
5:31
want it to look like a nightgown either. And
5:33
you don't want it to look like you are wearing
5:35
it to work. Like it can't look office. No, it
5:37
can't look office. It has to be some combination
5:40
of something you might wear, I guess, to church.
5:44
Yes, that is a good guideline. But although I
5:46
don't go to church, But I know what people wear
5:49
to church. I see them walking around in the in
5:51
church wear and I would assume that that translates
5:55
to Graduation wear. Yes. No, I think that is
5:58
exactly it. Do you wear a hat though? No. Not
6:03
to graduation? No. No. I mean, you could, right?
6:06
You could. Well, I'm not wearing a hat, but I
6:10
do feel like there will be some people there
6:12
with a hat. No, I would think so, too. And of
6:14
course, again, you could do it. I will say that
6:16
I was really happy because when I went to the
6:18
baccalaureate where I was... underdressed. And
6:21
I really don't think I hallucinated this. I think
6:23
that this actually happened. Right. When we were
6:26
going up to the altar, because there was kind
6:29
of a worship element to this baccalaureate, as
6:31
you know, a woman leaned over and whispered to
6:35
me, I love your dress. And I really was thinking,
6:39
did again, did I hallucinate that? Did it happen?
6:41
I was like, oh, thank you. You nailed it. I felt
6:43
great. You nailed it. I felt great. And I loved
6:45
the dress. No pun intended. No pun. No pun. That
6:49
was a fantastic pun. Congratulations. That was
6:54
really great. Sometimes I do it. I'm so glad
6:55
that that's memorialized. Sometimes I do it right.
6:58
That was terrific. That was absolutely terrific.
7:01
Anyway, okay. So to my surprise, and I would
7:06
say delight, I learned when I turned on Netflix
7:10
that my... ultimate favorite book growing up,
7:14
which is Forever by Judy Blume. And as a Philly
7:17
girl, I have a very special relationship to Judy
7:21
Blume, who grew up in northern New Jersey, not
7:23
too far from where I grew up. There is actually
7:25
a rest stop named after Judy Blume if you drive
7:28
on the New Jersey Turnpike, which we frequent
7:30
quite often. And so Forever was one of these
7:34
books that I cherished and I read in Maybe elementary
7:38
school, but definitely middle school and read
7:43
many, many, many times, as did all of my girlfriends
7:46
and all of my camp friends and everyone that
7:49
I knew. And we read it under the covers and in
7:52
each of the other's houses and we talked about
7:53
it. And so the idea that it would be coming out
7:56
as a re -imagined Netflix series was very, very
8:00
interesting to me. Agreed. I dove right in and
8:04
then with this whole senior year theme figured
8:08
that it would be really ripe time to talk about.
8:11
both versions of Forever, the book and now this
8:17
series on Netflix. So both of them, of course,
8:20
are talking about senior year, as you say, preparations
8:23
for college, but also the intertwining of those
8:26
things with having really your first real relationship,
8:30
falling in love, sexual exploration, which we're
8:34
not going to talk about too much this part. We'll
8:38
talk about it more in our next episode. And I
8:42
think what probably a lot of us expected from
8:45
this forever series was that it would hew pretty
8:47
closely to the book. Yes. And what of course
8:50
was a big shock is that there really aren't many
8:53
similarities at all. No. So the so the backstory,
8:59
or rather the context around the new series is
9:03
that it was, quote, inspired by Forever. And
9:06
Judy Blume herself is a producer on the series.
9:09
There's definitely DNA in the new series from
9:13
the original Forever. However, beyond those things,
9:19
the two probably could not be more dissimilar.
9:23
So we just wanted to point out a few things in
9:26
in the two that link together and that connect.
9:30
And they are, again, very few of them. Very few.
9:32
So in both cases, we have a young couple. In
9:36
the original book, it is Michael and Catherine.
9:39
In the series, it is Keisha and Justin. And in
9:44
both cases, they are students who go to different
9:47
high schools. And they meet at a New Year's Eve
9:50
party. And not only a New Year's Eve party. I
9:53
don't know why this detail was retained, but
9:56
a New Year's Eve fondue party. Oh, right. Who
9:59
knows why the fondue kept on. But we have fondue
10:03
in both. OK. So meet and then have a relationship.
10:08
This is one of the similarities. One of the other
10:09
similarities, of course, again, who knows why
10:11
this is retained, is that in both cases, the
10:14
boys name their penises Ralph. This is a specific,
10:18
someone loved that detail from the book. Someone
10:20
loved it. Because it stays put. It stays. There
10:24
is a forever necklace exchanged that is important.
10:29
Meaningful. And meaningful to the female characters
10:32
and the male characters that are gifting this
10:34
necklace. And beyond that, oh, they break up.
10:38
And they break, sorry, spoiler alert. They break
10:40
up. In both cases, book and series. Both cases
10:42
they break up. Beyond that, that's about it.
10:48
So maybe the most obvious thing in terms of differences
10:53
that we need to talk about, one of them at least,
10:57
is length of time that we are talking about.
11:01
So the book is very short. It can be read in
11:04
a few hours. It can be read in the time it takes
11:07
to maybe watch two episodes of the series. So,
11:11
and that's even if you are reading the entire
11:13
book and not just reading basically the good
11:15
parts of the sex scenes. Even if you're not just
11:19
dog -earing the pages and reading the good stuff.
11:21
So we have what, an eight episode long Netflix
11:25
series, if I remember. Yes, which documents an
11:28
18 month long relationship. So we get junior
11:33
year and senior year with Justin and Keisha.
11:36
Yes, and just a few months in the case of Michael
11:39
and Catherine, where they start dating again
11:41
on Year's Eve, they get into a relationship fairly
11:43
quickly, and then by the summer they are broken
11:46
up only to see each other once more when they
11:49
run into each other. So we have a very different
11:52
pace of the relationship. And with Forever the
11:57
TV series, because it is so long, there's lots
11:59
of breaking up, making up over and over and over
12:03
again. And most importantly, unblocking and blocking.
12:07
There is so much use of technology, appropriate
12:12
and fitting to our digital age, right? But most
12:17
of the breaking up and making up is done via
12:20
text, block, secret, secret text message. Did
12:24
you know there was a secret message you could
12:27
leave that no one knew about voicemail? I had
12:30
no idea. No clue. Okay, there's so much that
12:32
you need to know about your phone in terms of
12:35
watching this thing to really understand the
12:37
dynamics between these two. Of course, Michael
12:39
and Catherine are just old fashioned landlines,
12:43
letters written from camp and seeing each other.
12:48
IRL IRL and and very much the sense right that
12:51
they are not having any that it is a special
12:54
thing when they see each other in person yes
12:56
right and that their relationship is dependent
12:59
upon this sort of IRL these particular exchanges
13:03
these moments together and so all told and this
13:05
is actually something that comes up in the book
13:07
where Katherine says I've only seen this guy
13:09
five times in my life right how can I be so madly
13:11
in love with him already right and but nevertheless
13:15
right we do get a sense very much of this incredible
13:17
depth of this relationship so quickly, which
13:20
again, forever the series, is not interested
13:23
in a deep relationship immediately, a connection.
13:27
A connection, for sure. And the other thing about
13:31
the book is that because so much of the book
13:34
is about sexual awakening, sexual realizations,
13:38
and finding places to have sex, that most of
13:42
the chapters really are isolated to these secret
13:46
places that Michael and Catherine can be alone,
13:49
whether it's his sister's apartment, whether
13:52
it's somebody's house when the parents aren't
13:54
home, and because they do not have FaceTime,
13:57
and because they do not have landlines, but it's
14:00
also clear they live with their families that
14:02
are also using the landlines. We don't have five
14:05
different phones to find people around. The younger
14:08
sister is eavesdropping on the phone call. Right.
14:10
There's a lack of privacy that is really important
14:14
to the development of the relationship. Justin
14:19
and Keisha, because the relationship unfolds
14:22
over a longer time, but also because they do
14:24
have their own phones. They do have more privacy
14:26
and they can FaceTime at night. They can they
14:29
can, quote, sleep together. There's there's a
14:31
scene where Keisha is sleeping and Justin is
14:34
watching her over the phone, which is a very
14:37
intimate thing, actually. But that could never
14:40
have happened with Michael and Catherine. Correct.
14:43
And so we also then have, of course, one of the
14:45
most important differences. We have the difference
14:47
in the in the series, the difference of class
14:49
and the difference of race. Right. And obviously
14:52
in the book forever, it is very much emphasized
14:55
that these are two very similar kinds of families.
14:59
Right. But in the book, Michael and Michael's
15:02
parents are depicted as being maybe a little
15:04
bit more conservative, not as maybe sort of hippie
15:06
ish. But again, same sort of background, same
15:08
sort of schools. They're both going to similar
15:11
colleges. There's an immediate connection in
15:15
that what? Catherine's friend's cousin goes to
15:18
school with Michael, knows him personally. And
15:20
so this is a link. But the idea that basically
15:22
all of these spaces are very familiar to them,
15:25
sort of the people that they know in these communities.
15:27
And of course, this is one of the major plot
15:29
points in Forever the Series. that even though
15:32
these families know each other from Keisha and
15:35
Justin going to elementary school together, that
15:37
they are basically, in terms of class, very different.
15:41
And that the structure of the family is different,
15:44
because Keisha has a single mom. She doesn't
15:48
have any siblings. She has that kind of neighborhood
15:52
family. She has cousins. She has her grandfather.
15:56
Her father appears eventually, but he is He's
16:00
off in the Dominican Republic playing baseball.
16:02
He's not around for most of it. Whereas Justin
16:04
has a more traditional nuclear family. They're
16:07
very wealthy. A very hands -on mother. A very
16:11
controlling mother. Very hands -on and controlling
16:13
mother. And Keisha's mother is very hands -on
16:16
too, but in a very different way. And money is
16:20
no object for Justin's family, and Justin is...
16:24
is college -bound and it will be paid for full
16:28
freight by his family. Keisha is also college
16:31
-bound, but depends on scholarships and a lot
16:35
of grit and her track performance and things
16:38
like that. So they both have aspirations for
16:42
sure, but there's a lot of added details to the
16:46
differences between their families. Also, Justin
16:49
has ADHD, which is a really important... plot
16:53
point in his struggles, and he's not as academically
16:57
motivated, whereas Keisha is, you know, she's
17:00
in the hustle, she's in it to get this Howard
17:02
Scholarship, she's - We see the montages of her
17:07
like working out. She's all the things. She's
17:09
all the things. And it's very different than
17:11
Michael and Catherine who do seem - more or less
17:15
interchangeable in the kinds of ambitions they
17:17
have and the kinds of things they want to do.
17:19
You actually never even know what Michael and
17:21
Catherine want to do later in life. Keisha and
17:26
Justin are very different in their personality
17:29
types Yes, and so but that also brings up for
17:32
me something that is to me is the most egregious
17:35
difference between the two the series in the
17:38
book and that is the book is unapologetically
17:41
Katherine's story. Yes, it is told from her point
17:44
of view. Yes, right We understand everything
17:46
through her the the question is how does she
17:49
feel about the relationship? How is she directing
17:52
the course of the relationship? Is she comfortable
17:53
with the sexual component? And it is, I don't
17:57
want to say the opposite in the show, but in
18:00
a sense you get the kind of feeling often that
18:03
Justin really is the focus of the series. I felt
18:06
that Justin was the protagonist of the series
18:09
because so much of it is focused on his family,
18:14
his family's expectations, whether or not he
18:18
can. kind of balance life in the way that his
18:21
family wants. And then the impact of Keisha on
18:24
him, whether Keisha is going to be the center
18:27
of things for him, whether he can kind of move
18:29
beyond just his relationship and follow his goals
18:33
or even identify his goals. And then there's
18:36
more layering in terms of racial expectations,
18:39
of what it means to be a black man, and models
18:43
for him, and whether he's going to be more like
18:46
his father, who's a creative type, who's a chef,
18:49
or his mother, who is some sort of finance executive.
18:53
We know she went to Wharton. She does something
18:57
fancy. And again, we don't ever see her at work.
19:03
We don't. And so we don't know what she does.
19:06
know it's something fancy. We know it's something
19:08
that has helped the family to thrive financially
19:14
and that she again has been through white institutions
19:19
and has Worked really really hard to succeed
19:22
at ivy league or you know those kinds of institutions.
19:27
So but we don't know what she does we don't know
19:29
what she does it's only mentioned that she went
19:31
to warden near the very end of the series right
19:34
keep hearing about northwestern because she wants
19:36
justin to go to northwestern right but we don't
19:38
we also and correct me if i'm wrong we don't
19:41
know anything about her class background now
19:44
and so certainly we hear with the dad right where
19:47
the dad says alright again. and my grandfather
19:50
was picking cotton, and he says, right, your
19:53
first generation, right? I didn't go to college.
19:56
And it's an amazing scene. That's a very, very
19:59
moving and amazing scene to me when his father
20:02
says that. And what I especially liked about
20:04
that. scene is that you do because of course
20:07
so often you have this this binary right sort
20:10
of you know and as you know I'm a first -generation
20:12
person but you have this binary of sort of the
20:15
first -generation college student who's sort
20:16
of like impoverished right you know versus again
20:19
the sort of wealthy kid you know who's right
20:21
but obviously what we see there is something
20:23
so complicated the father is successful right
20:26
he has he's opening multiple restaurants like
20:29
Vegas Atlanta you know super successful but he
20:32
didn't go to college, right? And as you say,
20:34
right? He's this creative person. But so he can
20:37
say, you know, this incredibly meaningful, you
20:40
know, it is so important to me that you are going
20:41
to college, right? That this is not something
20:43
any man in your family has ever done. And so
20:46
in a sense, because that scene was so, I think,
20:49
profound and touching, I actually did then sort
20:52
of want a little bit more about, well, OK, where
20:55
where the mother, what's the mother's name? Obviously,
20:58
Karen Pittman is the actress who's so amazing.
20:59
But like, I don't remember the character's name.
21:00
I should have looked this up. But you don't have
21:02
any sense of like, OK, was she a first generation
21:06
person? But then I got the sense from the Martha's
21:08
Vineyard trip, which she goes to with her brother
21:13
is there. Yeah, that's true. And he talks about
21:16
Howard and that family has gone to college. I
21:20
don't know that for sure, but they're in that.
21:24
Yes. Pretty significant house in Martha's Vineyard.
21:28
She's there with her, quote, sister. It's not
21:31
her real sister. Yeah, I was kind of confused
21:32
about the family relationships. But her brother
21:34
was there. Yeah, her brother's definitely there.
21:36
And the Uncle Charlie. Yes. Who gives Justin
21:38
this talk, right, about... And says you're never
21:40
going to the NBA. But also says to him, you should
21:43
go to Howard, find yourself, and then use the
21:46
white networks later. And which is, of course,
21:49
in real contrast to what Karen Pittman wants.
21:52
And I found that to be really interesting. as
21:54
well because there were, but what I took away
21:57
from Martha's Vineyard is that it's her side,
21:59
it's the mother side of the family and that they
22:02
have gone to college. Although I have no actual
22:06
factual evidence that that's true from anything
22:09
in the show. Yes, and you know, even though the
22:11
show of course was in my view, way too long.
22:14
And actually should not have been eight episodes.
22:16
That was something where I really did want, again,
22:19
sort of more nuance because so it is so crucial,
22:22
right, that she wants her son. She wants Justin
22:25
to basically replicate her own experience. She's
22:28
incredibly overbearing. She's extremely unsympathetic.
22:32
Right. Super strict, super controlling. And absolutely.
22:36
And this this is this sort of stereotypical,
22:38
you know, senior in high school who's like, I
22:40
don't know what I want to do. And the mom is
22:42
coming in. Right. You're doing the tutoring.
22:43
you're doing the extra stuff, you're doing the
22:45
lessons, and this is your only option. And so
22:49
I think because she was so unsympathetic, right,
22:52
that was part of the reason why I wanted more,
22:55
you know, just a little kind of taste of is she,
22:58
again, why is she so invested in this kid, again,
23:02
replicating her exact, exact sort of life choices?
23:05
Yeah, it's an interesting question. It is. And
23:08
again, just to draw comparison to the book, we
23:12
know that that Catherine's parents are in love.
23:17
We know that Catherine's father is a hottie.
23:20
The mother gets a bikini and is trying to keep
23:24
his interest and there's that. But the involvement
23:27
of her parents certainly is nothing like the
23:30
involvement of the adults in the Netflix series.
23:34
And we do get that double layered show where
23:37
we learn. a lot about the adults, we learn a
23:40
lot about the kids, there are scenes where the
23:42
adults are doing their own thing, where kids
23:44
aren't in it, maybe they're just talking about
23:46
it, but it is a very, very different narrative
23:48
than these two teenagers falling in love and
23:50
that's the - That's the soul focus, etc. The
23:54
other thing of which is, you know, lots of reviews
23:56
have talked about is the change in locale, which
23:59
of course has a lot to do with not just the love
24:03
story and the overall arc, but also the senior
24:06
year experience itself. So the senior year experience
24:09
in New Jersey, right, is one that is much more
24:13
contained. I mean, they go skiing and they do
24:15
some stuff, but they're mainly hanging around
24:17
people's basements. They're playing board games
24:20
there. In the rec room. I don't know if they
24:23
even go to the mall. But in the series, they
24:28
do a lot of stuff. They're all over LA. They
24:31
are in food trucks. They're at concerts. They
24:36
go to Martha's Vineyard. scale of it, the geographical
24:44
scale of it is much, much broader. And the high
24:47
school experience is much broader in terms of
24:51
not just thinking about urban America, thinking
24:55
about race, thinking about all these things.
24:57
And again, Catherine and Michael have access
24:59
to New York City. We just don't see them in it.
25:02
No, we see Catherine in New York City. Well,
25:03
we see Catherine, but. By herself. Visiting her.
25:06
Not them together as a couple. We don't see them
25:07
as a couple. The way that we see Keisha and Justin
25:10
walking along and going to the sneaker stores
25:13
or whatever they're doing, hanging out like teenagers,
25:15
but hanging out in these very public urban spaces
25:18
that adds another level of dimension to the show.
25:24
But then we also I mean one of the the other
25:26
differences it seems to me that is important
25:28
is that both Keisha and Justin are attending
25:31
private school right and obviously it is. It
25:35
is framed very much and this is actually something
25:38
i will admit i didn't quite understand it was
25:41
framed very much even with justin who is from
25:43
such a wealthy family framed as if like this
25:46
is his only possibility of going to school and
25:50
i think and in parts of the focus on basketball
25:53
to me at the beginning of the way after we get
25:56
that kind of nba you know come to jesus moment.
25:58
But it was so bizarre to me that you have this
26:01
unbelievably wealthy kid. It was this beautiful
26:04
house in Los Angeles, right? With the pool, everything.
26:07
And again, the beautiful house in Martha's Vineyard.
26:09
But we still have this kind of narrative of like,
26:12
the kid needs to go to private school. He needs
26:14
to get a basketball or scholarship. He needs
26:16
to be basically in a white majority space in
26:20
order for him to kind of have this chance to
26:22
go to Northwestern. In some ways that echoes
26:29
the OC when Marissa goes to the quote, you know.
26:33
public school. And it's like this complete dirt
26:37
bag public school. And you wonder why in Orange
26:40
County, in this super wealthy neighborhood, she
26:43
would be zoned for this fleabag high school.
26:48
And again, it's not just a question of public
26:51
school, but it's a question of this series takes
26:55
place in 2018. So the availability or the variety,
27:00
and even with someone who has ADHD, The idea
27:04
that Justin would only be able, he can afford
27:07
anything. So the idea that he would only be able
27:09
to go to this one kind of more generic private
27:13
school and wouldn't have a public school that
27:16
was for kids in his socioeconomic strata, or
27:20
that there wouldn't be a school for kids who
27:23
think outside the box, who are neurodivergent.
27:26
Alternative education. That there wouldn't be,
27:28
and again with a mother like that. who is on
27:31
it. I mean, who is on it. Do the research. She
27:33
is a helicopter mom. She says it herself, right?
27:38
And that she wouldn't have him somewhere that
27:41
he would not only maybe be more comfortable in
27:45
terms of racial dynamics, but also in terms of
27:48
the learning dynamics. Yes. that, yeah, he would
27:52
be such an outsider and that basketball, again,
27:54
I mean, he has the three, which is great, which
27:57
is great, but he's not going to be a superstar
28:01
the way that some of the other athletes that
28:04
are at the school are. And then there's this
28:08
pathway for him to get into Northwestern, which
28:10
we never quite understand academically what that
28:12
is. But I guess it's him just like doing okay
28:14
in his classes, like having a tutor. I have to
28:16
say, I mean, the essay was not good. We both
28:19
know how important the essay is in applying to
28:21
college. That essay was not good. We do know
28:24
the essay was not good. I'm sure that Northwestern
28:27
gets very many essays that say, my ADHD is my
28:30
superpower. Right. But so I wanted something
28:33
a little bit. But again, he has a legacy. He's
28:35
a legacy. He has a legacy. And he's a sweet guy.
28:40
He's a sweet guy. I was a big fan of Justin.
28:42
I was a huge fan of Justin. Especially pre -haircut.
28:45
Yes. Because I wasn't crazy about the haircut.
28:47
Well, I just think he's a very handsome guy.
28:49
He's a very charismatic actor. And the character
28:52
was very sweet. Very sweet. And very sympathetic.
28:55
And in a lot of ways, what I really liked about
28:57
the relationship between those two is that it
29:01
was an attempt to modernize the story, but not
29:05
hit us over the head with the typical 2025 high
29:09
school themes. They were sweet, they were innocent,
29:14
although some really bad stuff happened to Keisha,
29:17
particularly with the internet video. But this
29:21
wasn't a school shooting, you know, like all
29:27
sorts of super, super depressing and troubling.
29:31
Post pandemic. Yeah, I mean, it was. It had the
29:36
sweetness of Michael and Catherine in it for
29:39
me and it had the innocence and the you know
29:42
the kind of fumbling around and how to talk to
29:45
somebody and Justin not having a girlfriend before
29:50
and really being Inexperienced and and awkward
29:55
in relationships in general which you know his
29:57
friend says oh, you know everyone thinks you're
29:59
kind of weird and And that he had to kind of
30:02
come into himself in that way I feel like yes
30:05
He was much more like Katherine in the book that
30:08
he had to kind of come into himself even though
30:10
he had a much longer span of time to do it Yes,
30:13
and and it is significant. It seems that out
30:15
of our sort of four characters here michael in
30:20
the book is is not a virgin right so in the in
30:23
the tv show they both are virgins even though
30:25
he assumes that she is not actually he thinks
30:27
that keisha is not a virgin but obviously so
30:30
much a part of the book is that is catherine
30:32
really coming to terms with the idea of losing
30:35
her virginity what she is comfortable with what
30:37
she is not comfortable with and one of the things
30:40
speaking of sort of 2025 things one of the the
30:44
things that is Interesting and different right
30:47
we have the question of sort of birth control
30:49
again sort of taking control of this this relationship
30:51
and the question of consent and one of the interviews
30:54
that i read i think it was with the creator.
30:56
What she said well you know consent is one of
30:57
these things that we talk about all the time
30:59
now that was not so much the case when the book
31:01
was originally written in nineteen seventy five
31:03
or whatever it was and i actually thought it
31:05
was then really ironic because when justin first
31:09
kiss it kisses kisha right in this closet he
31:12
just kisses her right in the book. Michael actually
31:16
like can i kiss you and i was like well again
31:20
you know one of these things that is maybe a
31:21
little bit more complicated but then obviously
31:23
and then you and i talked about this a little
31:25
bit before we started talking podcast. What is
31:28
so striking to me right because the book is from
31:31
katherine's perspective. She takes control of
31:34
making an appointment of Planned Parenthood,
31:37
going into the city, going, getting the pill.
31:41
Michael doesn't know about it. She has not discussed
31:43
this with him before. You know, maybe not the
31:44
best idea, but whatever. It's her choice. It's
31:46
right. Her body. That's the whole point of that
31:48
episode. And that she has a close relationship
31:50
with her grandmother, who is a practicing lawyer,
31:53
gave her these pamphlets. And so it's this very
31:56
kind of open thing. She's making an informed
31:59
decision. She has had this conversation. And
32:02
as I told you, I thought it was so striking that
32:04
again, in our sort of 2025 program, the birth
32:07
control conversation in the show is so old fashioned,
32:11
right? Dad to go to the son and saying, do you
32:13
have any condoms? Here have some, put them in
32:16
your wallet. And so again, it's one of these
32:18
really sort of topsy turvy things where I'm like,
32:20
well, wait a minute, wouldn't we expect the 1975
32:22
moment to be the dad saying here they are and
32:26
the 2025, you know, the young woman going to
32:29
Planned Parenthood. But of course, it's the exact
32:31
opposite. It is, it is. And so that was something
32:33
where I think in terms of the sexual relationship
32:37
too, one more thing I want to say, and then I'll
32:38
shut up about it for a second, is that obviously
32:41
in Forever the Book, we have this incredibly
32:43
clear progression. Yes. What Gen X would basically
32:46
say, right, from sort of first base, right, going
32:49
all the way. Right. And it goes sort of over
32:51
time. Whereas with Keisha and Justin, their very
32:55
first date, she's going to basically like go
32:57
down on him in a movie theater, which he - The
33:00
Alanis Morissette. Exactly, Alanis Morissette.
33:03
That's so funny. And then they kind of sort of,
33:07
then when they eventually start having this relationship
33:10
again. They have sex, right? So it's not this
33:13
sort of smooth, linear path. No, it's ju ju ju
33:17
ju ju sort of, I don't want to say all over the
33:18
place, but you know what I mean. But I also think
33:21
that a lot of that, and it's not like blame the
33:23
internet or blame the digital age, but I think
33:26
a lot of that does have to do with the blocking,
33:30
the unblocking. I mean, him. Laying in that tent
33:34
and listening to her messages, right? It's sort
33:37
of like for play for him, right? Good point.
33:40
And he is getting excited and he is going to
33:43
see her and he knows that when he sees her, he's
33:46
already prepped the space. When he sees her and
33:51
he throws the bike to the side. Classic running
33:54
towards each other. And you have this moment
33:56
and you know that's when they're going to have
33:59
sex. Because he has, it's been building, obviously
34:02
it's been building for her all the way to Martha's
34:04
Vineyard. For months. Well, for months, but then
34:07
on the plane ride. And trying to find him for
34:11
days. And she's riding, she's got a bike and
34:14
two buses. I mean, this girl is into him. bike
34:19
ride and two buses she has to take to get to
34:23
the place. And she doesn't even know if he's
34:24
going to be there. She just goes to this basketball,
34:26
you know, where people play basketball and hopes
34:29
he's there. And he, of course, you know, or somebody
34:32
looks like him. But then later she finds him.
34:35
But the point of all this is, is that the climax
34:38
is happening. Separately and in some ways off
34:42
screen with digital devices and imagine a imagination
34:48
of what's going to happen and then when they
34:50
finally do see each other, you know, there's
34:52
this explosion of passion and of reuniting and
34:56
all kinds of things like that. And this by the
34:58
way is another tiny similarity between book and
35:01
series is that the first time they do it. It's
35:03
on the floor. Yes. Another technical, you know,
35:07
I also have to point out although I shouldn't.
35:10
When Justin is listening to all of those voicemails,
35:15
right, that Keisha has left him over a period
35:16
of months when he has blocked her or whatever,
35:19
do you know what that actually reminded me of?
35:21
It reminded me of all of the emails that Mr.
35:25
Big said the love letters, reading the love letters,
35:29
writing the love letters, as you said, that then
35:31
Carrie finds in the film and then runs into the
35:34
closet to have sex with him. Yes. So I don't
35:37
know, again, if the writer of that episode forever
35:39
was thinking of that, but that's it. It always
35:42
comes back. It always comes back. It always comes
35:44
back. So, OK, one more thing about sort of similarity
35:48
or differences, I should say differences between
35:50
the book and the series. So obviously it is such
35:53
a thing in the book that moving into a sexual
35:58
relationship is this. It's so much tied up with
36:02
senior year questions because the really basic
36:04
thing We are so passionately in love. We are
36:07
so committed to each other We're now so intimate
36:09
that the idea of going to college different places
36:12
is crushing crushing It's crushing crushing and
36:15
we have to kind of do whatever we can figure
36:17
out the long distance relationship Should should
36:21
we have the long distance relationship? And what
36:24
do we want the other thing that I really like
36:26
that the series explored is what do I want for
36:29
myself? in college, which Keisha very much wants
36:32
her Howard experience to be hers and to whatever
36:37
that means for her. And it doesn't necessarily
36:39
mean I'm going to go date a whole bunch of guys,
36:41
but it means I want Howard to be. Mine and she
36:45
doesn't want just to go there with her yet he
36:47
doesn't want him to sort of take that experience
36:49
and shape that experience in a way that she won't
36:52
be able to figure out and grow and evolve in
36:56
the ways that she wants to and that to me is
36:58
very very important and. That's all entangled
37:02
with the sort of who am I of senior year as it
37:06
evolves and it's very, very different in forever,
37:10
the junior year where you don't hear as much
37:13
about college. You certainly hear about Keisha
37:14
and wanting to go to Howard and wanting to get
37:17
the scholarship. The senior year reads very similar,
37:22
again, like Seth and Summer and Brown at the
37:26
OC and the application process, the essay, the
37:32
early decision. And people everywhere are only
37:35
applying to one school, right? Again, we see
37:38
this in Gossip Girl, right? In the OC and in
37:40
Forever. Right. One school. People just have
37:42
a focus on... One school. One school. And yeah,
37:46
I mean, it's so it is so interesting how the
37:49
kind of granular level of college admissions,
37:55
really. I mean, at one point when Justin meets
37:57
Keisha's father and he's sort of like, are you
37:59
going to Northwestern? Well, the deadline is
38:01
December 15th. And you're like, oh my God. I
38:05
mean, these people are really into when you get
38:09
in, when you find out, you know, you're committing
38:12
and that, you know, there's no early action.
38:15
There's no, you know, there's no deferrals. There's
38:18
no, I mean, in real college world, there is a
38:21
way for Justin to apply and kind of figure things
38:25
out and then decide later in April whether he
38:28
still wants to go. Now, granted, his chances
38:31
in the Western might not be as high as if he
38:34
had applied early decision. Still, he has the
38:38
opportunity, if he really is unsure and he wants
38:40
to visit some, let's just say some HBCUs and
38:44
see what they feel like versus a Northwestern
38:46
or USC or something like that. And for some reason,
38:52
Howard and Northwestern are it. And that's the
38:58
end of it. And then it's this question of, well,
39:02
how will they get to each other? Summers are
39:05
planned. Internships are planned. What they're
39:08
going to do in the future, in a way that I think
39:12
high schoolers think about. But then you have
39:14
to think about, but wait a second. Then we're
39:16
going to go to college. And we're going to meet
39:18
people. And we're going to have our own experiences.
39:21
And what is that going to look like? And I do
39:23
think the series really fleshes that out. For
39:26
Catherine and Michael, all Catherine has to do
39:28
is go to camp. And it flushes itself out. She
39:31
sees this one guy and she's like, oh, you're
39:35
hot. And I can't basically be, and if I'm attracted
39:39
to someone else while being madly in love with
39:41
you, this is just so confusing and weird to me.
39:43
And as I told you before, to me, that is such
39:45
an 18 year old way to think. It is. And also
39:50
an 18 year old in 1975. An 18 year old now would
39:54
be able to... think juggle multiple people the
39:59
idea that you can be attracted to multiple people
40:02
and have a girlfriend and still think other people
40:04
are hot and all of that kind of rocks and rolls,
40:07
but I Don't think the idea of forever monogamy
40:14
I can't even look or talk to anyone or even have
40:17
like a quick peck with anybody this has to be
40:20
the end of us is a much more old -fashioned concept
40:23
I Agree, but of course we're also talking, and
40:28
in part I'm thinking about this because I just
40:30
finished rereading Wifey by Judy Blume, a very
40:32
different kind of book in some ways, but very
40:34
similar in other ways. But of course you also
40:36
have this 1975 moment, right, of still kind of
40:38
like swinging, right, in free love, right, in
40:40
ice storm sort of things, and the whole thing
40:42
that's Sybill, a character in the book, that
40:44
she's basically having sex with everyone, right,
40:47
she's super promiscuous, she gets pregnant just
40:49
because she kind of wants to, wants to in effect.
40:52
and then gives up her baby for adoption. And
40:55
so that also is interesting, right? It is. Because
40:57
1975 is not necessarily the world's most sexually
41:01
conservative time, right? It isn't. It isn't,
41:04
but I guess in the 18 year old world of northern
41:09
New Jersey, let's just put it, and of course
41:11
all of Judy Bloom's books are in the Tri -State
41:13
area. So it's, I can see how that could be a
41:19
concern for Catherine in ways that for for these
41:24
20, 25 characters, I mean, whatever the show
41:27
takes place, but it's pre -COVID, right? It isn't
41:32
as much of an issue. And again, Justin is kind
41:35
of flirting with that other character who was,
41:38
and when he's in the Vineyard. Who flashes him.
41:39
Yeah, who flashes him, who's like his, you know,
41:42
who was like his cousin. I was kind of uncomfortable
41:44
with that entire scene, but anyway. Was that
41:47
his cousin? It was one of those things I think
41:49
where it's like our moms are friends. And so,
41:52
you know, because yes, I don't think it was actual.
41:54
At least I hope it was an actual cousin. But,
41:57
but, but Keisha never heard of it. Correct. Or
42:00
at least that we know. That we know of. Yes,
42:02
correct. So in some ways he kind of put a pin
42:04
in that or just threw it away or whatever. Never
42:07
thought about it. They get interrupted and it
42:08
never comes up again. Because he sees Keisha
42:10
almost immediately after that. Right. So he was
42:12
never like, oh, I was almost... you know, gonna
42:16
have sex with another girl. And so there and
42:18
Keisha can't, you know, be in my life anymore.
42:20
That that isn't the case. Yes. And so one of
42:23
the things, of course, that is so kind of sweet
42:24
about both book and movie, and then maybe we
42:27
should start talking about about fast times,
42:29
is that in both cases, right, we really do have
42:31
the sense of like, the the senior year sort of
42:35
and again, we can talk a bit more about losing
42:37
virginity later, but that this these kind of
42:39
intense, passionate, romantic sexual relationships
42:42
that sex should be reserved, right, for this
42:46
kind of falling in love moment. And again, and
42:48
that is why the whole college issue becomes so
42:50
complicated. And this then is why, of course,
42:52
Kath is so upset because she does interpret her
42:55
sexual attraction to Theo at camp as being this
42:58
as necessitating, right, this romantic entanglement
43:02
as well. And as you say, right, that's not necessarily
43:04
that's a very particular way to look at it. But
43:06
I think it is really sweet, right, that even
43:08
with Keisha and Justin in this world of sex tapes
43:11
on the phone, et cetera, that it is, this is
43:14
the model, right? It is. This passion, this intimacy,
43:18
that it manifests itself. in a sexual relationship,
43:22
right? That then sort of heightens the stakes,
43:24
that it's not casual, right? Nothing is casual.
43:26
And that both families have instilled in their
43:28
kids that it's special and important. And of
43:32
course, there's lots of issues about, you know,
43:34
girls getting pregnant and Keisha's very, very,
43:37
even though she's not, we don't see her doing
43:38
anything about part control. She's talking about
43:41
it a lot. But the idea that both of these families
43:47
have sort of, and again, The kind of vigilance
43:51
that Karen Pittman has over these two 18 -year
43:54
-olds in her house is bonkers. It is bonkers.
43:57
I mean, they're in the pool, and they're kissing,
44:01
and the little brother has to come in and jump
44:03
on them, and she's constantly asking them to
44:06
open the door. That really felt very 1975 to
44:11
me. I agree. What did not feel very 1975 to me,
44:15
I will say, is when Justin's parents find out
44:18
about Keisha's sex tape and Karen Pittman's character
44:22
says to her son, why didn't you tell us? And
44:25
it was like. Oh, mom and dad. So my girlfriend
44:31
has a sex tape with like some other boy from
44:33
a year ago and I just want to talk to you. How
44:35
would that even happen? And that it would somehow
44:37
be their responsibility to share it with the
44:40
mother. When it isn't, it has nothing to do with
44:43
them and it's for the girl to decide or not to
44:47
decide and that... a girl who's, I mean, again,
44:50
17, 18 years old, wouldn't want to share with
44:53
her mother that she has a sex tape. That's something
44:56
you want to keep quiet if you're 17 or 18. Although
45:00
it did have, obviously, this huge impact in terms
45:04
of where she went to school and people were ostracizing
45:08
her and it really devastated her in a lot of
45:12
ways. And it was good that she told her mother
45:14
about it, ultimately. But it was her choice to
45:17
tell or not tell. And I could completely understand
45:21
why she kept quiet for so long. Yes I could too
45:24
and it really was that we don't in a lot of ways
45:27
we don't see a lot of agency with either Justin
45:30
or Keisha in part again because of the Karen
45:32
Pittman character who's so controlling that does
45:35
even extend to Keisha and so. Yeah, I think then
45:40
maybe we should talk about a more kind of like
45:43
wild free -for -all place where parents aren't
45:44
even parents. No parents. No parents. Invisible
45:48
parents. The Hamilton household at Fast Times
45:51
at Richmond High is absent of parents. They do
45:55
not exist. They're always at work or traveling.
45:57
The only adults that we see in Fast Times at
45:58
Richmond High are teachers and employers. And
46:04
employers. And the guy that Stacey has sex with.
46:08
Correct. But again, we could talk about the losing
46:10
virginity part again next week. Right. But so
46:12
we're going to start talking about fast times
46:13
at Ridgemont High. treasured, treasured, Gen
46:17
X high school movie, very famously based upon
46:21
a book written by Cameron Crowe, a young journalist
46:25
who then himself became a very successful film
46:27
director. What was also significant about Fast
46:30
Times at Ridgemont High is that basically it
46:32
contains everybody who then was famous later.
46:35
So many actors that then became really well known.
46:39
And directed by Amy Hackerling. Amy Hackerling
46:42
who then went to direct Clueless. of other things.
46:45
And was absolutely one of the earliest, most
46:48
important female directors. Yes, absolutely.
46:50
So such a fantastic film, really without a plot.
46:53
A film without a plot and a very problematic
46:56
film viewing it in our 2025 moment in a lot of
47:00
ways. But nonetheless, a treasure for anyone
47:03
who came of age in the 70s and 80s. And there
47:08
probably isn't someone in their 50s now that
47:10
you can't find that can reference a Spicoli quote
47:14
or talk about a red bathing suit with some sort
47:19
of either creepiness or fondness depending on
47:22
who you are. Wait, I'm trying to remember, just
47:25
a tiny, did you, have you seen all those seasons
47:29
of Stranger Things? No. Because there's a wonderful,
47:32
wonderful moment that, again, such a Gen X Easter
47:34
egg, where a lifeguard, who is supposed to be
47:37
kind of like super hot, you know, he sort of
47:39
comes out of the pool and they start playing,
47:41
actually, the car song. Right, right. And again,
47:43
you know, it's the sort of thing where every
47:44
Gen Xer would start laughing. And my kids were
47:46
like, why are you laughing? I was like, you just,
47:48
you just can't know. Absolutely. Can't know.
47:50
Right, absolutely. Anyway, so. So, Fast Times
47:52
at Richmond High. which the most important thing
47:54
about it for the sake of comparison is it is
47:56
an hour and a half long. It is only a little
48:01
bit longer than one episode of forever. movie
48:07
jams along. Stacey is losing her virginity in
48:11
the first 15 minutes of the movie. And that is
48:15
something that really struck me watching it again.
48:18
I've seen this movie many, many, many times,
48:20
but I always re -watch and the pace of it is
48:24
striking. It is striking. And so because there
48:27
are so many characters. Yes. So many things happen,
48:30
as you say. So we have the central brother and
48:32
sister pair. Right. Stacey, a sophomore, and
48:35
Brad, her older brother, the senior. Brad has
48:38
a girlfriend, a serious girlfriend, Lisa. And
48:41
both Brad and Lisa are spending their senior
48:43
year thinking about what's going to happen. Then
48:46
we have Stacey's best friend, Linda, who is the
48:50
beautiful Phoebe Cates and some boys that they
48:54
know. who also work at the mall, because Linda
48:57
and Stacey work at the pizza place at the mall.
49:00
So you have Mike Ratner, who works at the movie
49:02
theater. And then you have Mark Ratner. Yes,
49:07
Mark Ratner. Mark Ratner. And Mike D 'amone.
49:11
D 'amone. The evil Mike D 'amone. The evil scalper.
49:14
Ticket scalper Mike Simone. And so one of the
49:17
things that we mentioned before we started talking
49:19
is how so much of Fast Times at Ridge One High
49:23
is about work that we see all of our high schoolers.
49:27
Working. Yes. And it's very, so we have Stacey
49:29
and Linda at the pizza place at the mall. As
49:32
you say, Brad is also at the mall. Even Damone
49:35
is hustling his tickets. And then we have Ron
49:38
at the stereo store. Ron at the stereo store.
49:42
Again, so kind of depressing. And so the idea
49:46
that the mall, the mall, the school, and then
49:49
certainly Stacey's house, right, are sort of
49:51
these places where things happen. Right. And
49:54
a lot of things happen. A lot of things happen.
49:56
And Mr. Hand's classroom. Mr. Hand's classroom.
50:00
Apparently the only class at that school. The
50:04
only class at the school where, of course, we
50:05
have all of these fantastic exchanges between
50:07
the burnout surfer, Jeff Spicoli, played, of
50:12
course, by Sean Penn, which is so fantastic,
50:14
and his continual battles with Mr. Hand over
50:17
the hijinks that are happening in class. Okay.
50:20
So what do we see see really a kind of senior
50:24
year preparation for the future, sort of high
50:27
school stuff. So in terms of the seniors. The
50:30
main storyline, although it's very short, is
50:34
that Brad and Lisa are going to decide to go
50:38
their separate ways. Brad decides this first,
50:41
but then gets fired from his job and then says
50:44
to Lisa, oh, I really need you. And she says,
50:46
you know, I think we should have our own freedom
50:49
this year. So they are thinking about whether
50:52
or not senior year means freedom or senior year
50:56
means continuing this relationship or seeing
50:58
other people and going off into the world of
51:01
adulthood. And Brad, because he's been the employee
51:06
of the month at the one burger place and sees
51:09
his identity in his job and in his ability to
51:13
also get other people's jobs at these places,
51:16
is also thinking, you know, I'm a smart, successful
51:18
guy, right? And when he graduates, maybe he's
51:21
going to be the manager of some other burger
51:26
franchise or whatever. These are conversations
51:30
are having are very adult conversations about
51:34
what's going to happen next in the world of adulthood.
51:37
You also have the Linda character who is engaged,
51:41
which she's 18 years old. She's engaged to this
51:44
guy, Doug, who we never see. Is off in Chicago.
51:47
Who works for the airline. That's all we know.
51:50
He works for the airline in Chicago. And he's
51:52
very sexually experienced. And from what we understand,
51:56
she's gotten all her experience from him. or
51:59
other older men or who knows? And Doug could
52:03
be 70 or Doug could be 25. We don't know. We
52:09
don't know. But that is the narrative of her.
52:12
And so she is the sexual mentor. And we'll talk
52:16
about this in our next podcast. But the sexual
52:19
mentor to Stacey, who at the beginning of the
52:22
movie is a virgin and is thinking about... what
52:26
her sexual status should be at this point in
52:29
high school. And is very much a Kath character,
52:31
right? Again, a young woman who, again, wants
52:34
to be sort of sexually experienced is thinking
52:36
about it a lot, sort of considering these things.
52:38
But goes about it in a very different way. Goes
52:40
about it in a very different way, as we will
52:41
discuss. But it is interesting because, as you
52:43
say, so Brad and Lisa, they see senior year very
52:47
much, not as we're going off to college. There's
52:50
no indication that they are going off to college,
52:52
but in the sense of like, this is beginning our
52:54
career. as workers, and we are going to then
52:58
get our full -time jobs. And very much in the
53:01
sense that the expectation is perhaps they'll
53:02
stay together, that they will get engaged, that
53:04
they will get married. And that senior year isn't
53:07
just, okay, we're still kind of finding our place,
53:10
but we have found our place in work and in society.
53:14
It also is absent of traditional senior year
53:17
milestones. So you don't see them having that
53:20
college acceptance sweatshirt day. You don't
53:23
see them, You see a dance at the end, but you
53:25
don't see the montage of girls getting ready
53:28
for the prom. You don't see Senior Ditch Day
53:31
or any of the... things that appear in some other
53:35
high school movies, and certainly anything made
53:38
now, and things like Forever, where there are,
53:41
when Keisha gets into Howard, there's a big party,
53:45
and it's posted on Instagram. And the whole prom
53:47
thing. There's three proms in Forever. And there
53:53
are no proms in Fast Times of Richmond High.
53:56
Again, there's this dance at the end, but it's
53:59
in some ways a plot point just for Spicoli. to
54:02
be late to it. And that again makes it feel like
54:07
we are watching adults or watching people who
54:10
are going not necessarily going to college or
54:13
at least aren't talking about going to college
54:15
but are talking about promotion in their current
54:18
jobs or moving on to other kinds of relationships,
54:22
where Linda says, well, Doug's not coming to
54:25
my graduation, and so I could do better. And
54:28
so her aspiration are like to find a guy who
54:30
treats her better. Yeah, and maybe is even older.
54:32
But then we also have this weird sort of confusion
54:34
and nonsense in terms of class, right? Because
54:37
nobody is talking about college, right? Because
54:39
Brad and Lisa are very much like, we're just
54:41
going to keep being manager of the store or whatever.
54:43
But at the same time, right, it's very clear
54:46
that Damone thinks of Stacey, Brad's sister,
54:48
as being very affluent, right? That the family
54:51
has a pool, that, you know, they have their little
54:54
cabanas. We'll talk more about the cabanas. They
54:55
have a detached house. They have a detached house.
54:58
And so very much this sense of like, okay, in
55:00
terms of mapping it, right? And again, and everybody
55:03
works, as we just said. So the parents are always
55:05
gone, right? Whether they're traveling, whether
55:07
they're at work, you know, who knows? They are
55:10
total nonentity. But so there is this weird difficulty,
55:14
right? In terms of saying like, Are these affluent
55:17
people? Are they not affluent people? Where are
55:20
they? Because it's not... Mapping. Well, one
55:23
thing we do know is that when the Forest Whitaker
55:26
character gets the car. Yes. Right. Yes. Yes.
55:28
Everyone is like, oh, my God, this is the fanciest,
55:32
nicest car we've ever seen. He got it from some
55:35
alum. Yes. No, because you're going to play football.
55:37
And everyone thinks that car is amazing. Like
55:40
a Lamborghini. Yes. OK. Everyone thinks it is
55:44
the nicest car they've ever seen. On the other
55:46
hand, Stacey is able to come up with $150 for
55:49
the abortion on her own. Oh, on her own. And
55:53
people seem to have cars. People borrow cars.
55:56
They're buying concert tickets. They're buying
55:57
concert tickets. Twenty dollars to see Vantana
56:00
and sit in one of, I don't know, the first 10
56:02
rows or something like that. But right, they
56:05
are they are purchasing things. They are driving
56:08
around. They're buying food. They're going to.
56:10
We don't get the sense that these are. Scrappy
56:14
kids. Now again, Damone is interesting because
56:16
he does live in what looks like an apartment
56:19
complex and might be of a different class than
56:22
some of these other characters. But because he
56:25
has this kind of hustler, scalper... reputation
56:30
or that's part of his job and also he comes off
56:34
as a lot older and he probably is a lot older
56:39
than most of the characters. Again, he doesn't
56:43
track as a different class than them, although
56:46
he might be working a little bit harder to kind
56:49
of keep up with the Joneses. Yes although i mean
56:52
one of the things about brad is really interesting
56:54
though because obviously brad has the car but
56:56
it's very much the sense that brad is not going
56:58
to have the car if he doesn't work right right
57:01
and so it's kind of difficult right to tell but
57:05
i agree and that's the thing about demone is
57:07
that right he is this hustler we very much see
57:10
him uh like literally right trying to hustle
57:12
people to get tickets but then you know and again
57:15
we'll talk about the whole sort of sort of uh
57:17
abortion thing next week where he refuses to
57:19
pay his half But so we do have, and as you say
57:22
about the car, this idea that the football player
57:27
is dependent upon the largesse of someone else,
57:29
right? But we then also have all of this, yes,
57:34
this freedom of Spicoli, right? Spicoli is kind
57:37
of the big question mark. He's smoking a lot
57:39
of dough, right? He has money. As we said, Brad
57:42
at the end is like, why don't you get a job,
57:44
right? Why don't you do something? And there
57:46
is just this this set of course at the very end
57:49
of the film right Spicoli gets this gigantic
57:51
reward or something right from like after he
57:55
foils the robbery and so that's in part it is
58:00
interesting to me and of course this is something
58:01
you know so much more about just thinking about.
58:04
California, sort of their part of California,
58:08
circa 1980. And again, how much is Stacey's house
58:12
worth? Where are they? But the other thing is
58:15
that when Mr. Hand, and I was really thinking
58:17
about this, again, thinking about labor and class
58:20
and other things, is that when Hand comes to
58:23
see Spicoli at the end, and you see Spicoli's
58:26
room, I was thinking, does he live in a detached
58:30
home? I was like, could this be an apartment?
58:33
this even be a trailer? Like it's this tiny little
58:36
room. It has these wood panels. Of course, there's
58:39
these naked women all over the place, but it's
58:41
very, very small. And the other thing about Spicoli
58:46
and like the idea that his little brother's there,
58:49
but again, no parents. He's going to what is
58:53
going to be, I don't know, senior dance, but
58:54
he's not in a tux. I mean, that's very Spicoli,
58:57
but all he does is like roll out of this VW van.
59:00
Wake and bake. Wake and bake, right. with Eric
59:03
Stoltz and Anthony Edwards. But you never get
59:08
a sense of these. these three guys need to find
59:13
some jobs or do something, otherwise they're
59:15
going to not be able to live or who's supporting
59:18
them. And again, the absence of parental figures
59:20
makes class very confusing because we have no
59:23
idea what anyone's parents do. We never see like
59:27
a teacher parent conference. We never see any
59:30
of those like toilet paper thrown all over the
59:33
school. The thing is, it is so Gen X for the
59:37
neglect of all of it. Absolutely. No parents
59:42
around, you're raising your sounds. toilet paper,
59:48
all over your high school, and your teachers
59:51
may or may not know where you are. And again,
59:53
you're in the high school parking lot, like having
59:55
smoked dope. Right. And nobody is paying any
59:58
attention. Nobody is paying any attention. And
59:58
this goes back to our initial smoking comments.
1:00:01
Yes, absolutely. And these are the kind of kids
1:00:04
who would smoke with their teachers. And this
1:00:07
was so funny is at the end when Vargas, is that
1:00:10
his name? Yeah, yeah, yeah. His super hot wife,
1:00:14
and she's kind of hitting on the students. And
1:00:17
there's zero attention to the improprieties of
1:00:20
all of it and how inappropriate most of it is.
1:00:23
And again, for next week we will talk a lot about
1:00:26
the sexual dynamics and the, you know, the age
1:00:30
issues and the lack of consent issues. For now,
1:00:37
the kind of latchkey kid of it all really screams
1:00:43
this moment in history that I think you could
1:00:46
only really appreciate growing up at that time.
1:00:50
And it's funny because my son who watched it
1:00:53
with me said, were there kids like this at your
1:00:57
high school? And I'm sort of like, no! Um, but,
1:01:02
but the vibe was there, right? There, no, there
1:01:06
was nobody who came in completely baked with,
1:01:09
you know - Oh my god, that happened at my high
1:01:10
school all the time! That happened at your high
1:01:12
school. Yes, it happened, yes. It did not - I
1:01:14
mean, I grew up in Judy Bloom land. Yeah. It
1:01:16
did not happen - I did not. It did not happen
1:01:18
in my high school where kids came in like with
1:01:21
clout, smoke coming out of their car. Um, it
1:01:25
did not. But - There were other dynamics that
1:01:28
certainly did. And the mall vibes are real. The
1:01:32
mall vibes and the mall work, which is, as I
1:01:37
told Christine before we did the podcast, the
1:01:39
mall work in that movie is so spot on. It's perfect.
1:01:43
I worked at a pizza place in the main mall. Did
1:01:47
they have the coats that you could come back
1:01:49
to collect if you left them there? But there
1:01:53
was a tabletop Ms. Pac -Man machine at the pizza
1:01:57
place, which again also screams. It's a beautiful
1:02:00
thing. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. Okay, so
1:02:03
maybe the last thing that we should maybe say,
1:02:05
and again, we're going to revisit so much of
1:02:07
this from a different angle next week. Is so
1:02:11
just the kind of irony so Brad and Lisa right
1:02:14
super super adult senior year we're going to
1:02:17
get married have these jobs but the relationship
1:02:20
then it's not passionate right it's not sexual
1:02:22
as far as we can see and again the parents are
1:02:25
sort of gone but then our contrast right is our
1:02:27
forever couples who are right in a sense not
1:02:31
as adult no right no jobs right nothing like
1:02:34
that not as adult and still so close with their
1:02:38
parents in different ways. but then are having
1:02:40
this, I love you, I wanna be with you forever,
1:02:42
maybe we'll get married in the future. And so
1:02:44
I think that that's so interesting that the Brad
1:02:46
and Lisa relationship, and of course, they do
1:02:48
break up very quickly in the film, but the Brad
1:02:50
and Lisa relationship is just so boring, right?
1:02:53
It's not passionate, even though it's like, yes,
1:02:55
this is our future. We've been together for two
1:02:57
years. Two years, and it's just kinda like, eh.
1:03:00
I'm done with you. I'm done with you. Again,
1:03:02
as opposed to these very madly in love, what
1:03:05
happens next sort of things. Yes, yes. What happens
1:03:08
next? in fast times is certainly not what happens
1:03:11
next in forever. And it is interesting, again,
1:03:15
given how much of fast times is about sex, that
1:03:19
what happens next really isn't about sex in the
1:03:22
end. Yes. And we, and again, that is a nice segue
1:03:25
to next time when we will talk more explicitly
1:03:28
about the sex in the senior year relationships.
1:03:32
Okay. So I think now we have some... Book recommendations.
1:03:37
What is your book recommendation? So this might
1:03:39
sound a little unorthodox given that we're talking
1:03:42
about 18 year olds, but given that I have an
1:03:45
18 year old and thinking back to when he was
1:03:48
little, I was reminded of a book. uh, called
1:03:52
The Blessing of a Skinny, which is really about
1:03:56
not being a helicopter parent. It is about -
1:03:58
Not being Karen Pittman's character. No, not
1:04:00
being Karen Pittman. Letting your kids be a little
1:04:02
more Gen X, letting them make mistakes, letting
1:04:05
them do their thing, and the advantages of giving
1:04:12
your kids a certain amount of autonomy in a helicopter
1:04:16
parent age. And it was written by a woman named
1:04:19
Wendy Mogul. Who has some very good advice and
1:04:24
at a moment I think when my kids were were little
1:04:26
and were probably elementary school age and everybody
1:04:29
was you know packing all the allergy free stuff
1:04:33
and the different stuff in the. 20 ,000 activities
1:04:37
and the Johnny can't play with Joey because Joey
1:04:40
has this sensitivity. No playgrounds, too dangerous.
1:04:44
Right. It really kind of cut through all that
1:04:47
bullshit and it, not to say that allergies are
1:04:50
bullshit. They're a real thing. But it really
1:04:55
reminded me a lot of my own, of the way that
1:05:01
people in the 70s and 80s were operating and
1:05:06
so the book, the book is in some ways a love
1:05:09
letter to leaving your kids the fuck alone. And
1:05:12
just letting them go out and play. Yeah, let
1:05:14
them go out and play. I'll see you six hours
1:05:16
later. Go ride your bike. Go ride your bike.
1:05:18
Go ride your bike. Okay, well my book recommendation
1:05:21
is by Theodore Sizer and the book is called Horace's
1:05:27
Compromise, The Dilemma of the American High
1:05:29
School. And Ted Sizer was a professor at Brown
1:05:31
when I was there. And he taught a class called
1:05:34
Going to High School in America. I think it was
1:05:37
from 1950 to the present. Unbelievable. And this
1:05:39
was this kind of class, right? Always super oversubscribed,
1:05:42
right? Everyone wanted to take it. And he did
1:05:45
some really serious educational reform, but very
1:05:48
interested, right? What is that? distinctly American
1:05:52
experience of going to high school again with
1:05:54
the dances and with the teachers and all of this
1:05:57
other good stuff. I love it. I love it. Yeah.
1:05:59
I would have loved to have taken that class.
1:06:00
You know, I would too. And I was never able to.
1:06:04
So in part, it's my regret over never having
1:06:06
taken it. The perks of an Ivy League education,
1:06:08
never, never being able to get into the classes
1:06:10
that you want. And you know, I wasted, I wasted
1:06:12
that. I wasted them all. Okay. So now it is time
1:06:15
for our harps and loves. Are you harping or loving
1:06:18
this week, Lauren? Well, I think that this is
1:06:24
a week for some harping. Harping. Okay. So I'm
1:06:30
going to harp. I'm trying to think because there
1:06:32
are plenty of things to harp on this week, especially
1:06:36
if we think about senior year and we think about
1:06:38
graduation, it is also a very, very stressful
1:06:41
time because while you are thinking about what
1:06:46
is ahead, you are trying to plan. And one of
1:06:50
the hellscapes that I'm now encountering, it's
1:06:52
something I love as a faculty member, but not
1:06:54
something I love so much as a parent, is the
1:06:57
Office of Study Abroad. Oh, Study Abroad. Study
1:07:00
Abroad, which sounds great in theory. It does.
1:07:03
But in reality, it involves hurdle after hurdle
1:07:08
of hurdle of a plot. Now, this isn't me. This
1:07:11
is my... child, kid, whatever we call adult in
1:07:17
college. But the questions, because my student
1:07:22
is not paying for these things, need to be answered.
1:07:26
And my harp is study abroad office, please put
1:07:30
out a letter or an email or a text or a blog
1:07:34
or something. for parents that says, here's how
1:07:37
much it costs. Here's how the classes get approved.
1:07:41
Here are the specific classes that will or won't
1:07:43
get approved. Here's where you go. And here's
1:07:46
what you're forking over on top of what you're
1:07:48
already paying. These things are very hard to
1:07:51
find. And navigating all of them has been taking
1:07:56
way too much longer than it should. So, study
1:08:00
abroad, I love you, and I encourage everyone
1:08:04
to go to study abroad, except perhaps people
1:08:08
related to me. Those people can stay at the school
1:08:13
that I pay for them to go to. And by the way,
1:08:17
the idea that your child is studying abroad in
1:08:20
some fantastic place and enjoying themselves
1:08:23
while you... are sitting at home going to CVS
1:08:28
and, you know, if you're lucky, anthropology
1:08:31
is a sad thought. So there should be some parity
1:08:37
in the kind of global experience of travel. You
1:08:41
know that you could do study abroad. You could
1:08:44
actually lead a study abroad class next summer.
1:08:48
I think that is an off -pod trip. The idea of
1:08:53
going study abroad with a bunch of our cheating
1:08:54
students, not to lead into your heart, but the
1:08:58
idea of taking a bunch of chat GPT students who
1:09:01
are going to chat GPTR trip. might not be so
1:09:05
appealing at the moment, but maybe I'll change
1:09:08
my mind by next summer. Something to keep in
1:09:10
mind. I will. As Lauren says, my harp this week
1:09:14
is that how many students seem to be cheating
1:09:17
in my summer class, but cheating in really bad,
1:09:20
inept ways. I mean, the cheating game really
1:09:23
needs to be sort of stepped up. Okay, and actually
1:09:26
I'm going to have a related harp, which is one
1:09:29
of my pet peeves when students say, I don't want
1:09:35
special treatment, but before they go on to ask
1:09:38
for special treatment. Okay. Just own it. Right.
1:09:42
If you're like, I want special treatment. Just
1:09:44
say, I mean, you're still not going to get it,
1:09:46
but the fact that you like sort of put that in
1:09:50
front of the request for special treatment. It's
1:09:53
like when people say, I'm not trying to insult
1:09:55
you, but you look like crap. It just doesn't
1:09:59
work. It just doesn't work. So that's my heart
1:10:02
for the week. That's it. That's my heart. Yeah.
1:10:05
Chat GPT and cheating has taken over everything.
1:10:08
There are countless articles about this. There
1:10:11
was just one in the Atlantic. But I do have to
1:10:14
say, if you're going to cheat with chat GPT,
1:10:17
it is so obvious. And it is so insulting that
1:10:22
a terribly written paper is preferable. And I
1:10:27
said that to 200 people. Please hand in a terribly
1:10:31
written paper over something that your computer
1:10:34
wrote that... 50 other papers resemble. You know,
1:10:38
maybe, and this maybe should be the last thing
1:10:41
we say, but again, another nice segue. Maybe
1:10:44
the second season of Forever can have an entire
1:10:48
at university chat GPT episode where Justin is
1:10:53
like accused by some evil professor of using
1:10:56
Office of Academic Integrity. Exactly. Exactly.
1:10:59
Well, on that note, I think again, we will stop
1:11:02
this part. We will look ahead to next time when
1:11:04
we do part of talking about high school and senior
1:11:07
year and all of this other good stuff. But I
1:11:10
think that's it for us, Lauren, for this time
1:11:11
around. Excellent, Christine. Well, these are
1:11:13
some of my favorite texts to talk about. And
1:11:15
I'm so glad we got a chance. And I look forward
1:11:17
to our next segment. I do, too. Harpies out.
1:11:21
Harpies out.