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Let's Cook on Perpetual Stew · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Let's give a big shout
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: out to our super producer, Max the Madman Williams.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Max Brain Stew Williams. Remember Brain Stew, that Green Day song?
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: What an odd name for a song. Didn't even mention
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Stew once.
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  Speaker 1: You know, you're Noel Brown. I'm Ben Bullitt. And Noel,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: you and I have been having some adventures recently. Max,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: you're going to join Noel and I on a madcap
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: escapade pretty soon. And you know what really hit me
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: earlier this month, just a few days ago, you guys?
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: I walked out. It wasn't. incredibly hot and humid outside.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: It was autumnal and it hit me. Noel, we might
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  Speaker 1: be officially into soup weather.
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  Speaker 2: We're approaching it, Ben. Don't let it trick you, brother.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Still 80 something degrees today in Atlanta, but no, I'm
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  Speaker 2: with you and I can't wait. Stew weather, sweater weather. Yes, indeed.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: The autumn is upon us, or at least it's creeping up.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Halloween spooky season. We love it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, something tasty this way comes. Now, as you know, folks,
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  Speaker 1: we are all kind of foodies. We're fans of food,
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  Speaker 1: and we have been astonished in past episodes by the deep, rich,
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  Speaker 1: and at times ridiculous history of food. One of the
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  Speaker 1: strangest things that we have encountered, thanks to our amazing
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  Speaker 1: research associate, Wrenn, is the idea of a stew that
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  Speaker 1: never ends.
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  Speaker 2: It is the stew that never ends. The never-ending stew-ry.
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  Speaker 1: Get it?
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  Speaker 2: The never-ending stew-ry?
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  Speaker 1: Is stew-ry like the....
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  Speaker 2: The study of stew?
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  Speaker 1: Well, you're in New York right now. I'm sure there's
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  Speaker 1: a stewery next to a brewery. Oh, a stewery could
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  Speaker 1: be a stew establishment, right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So we know the following.
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  Speaker 1: And big thanks to Zach Makes over on social media,
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  Speaker 1: should thou sip. We know this. Quote, perpetual stew is
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  Speaker 1: a dish that is cooked continuously, always simmering over heat.
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  Speaker 1: with more liquid and ingredients added as needed to replenish
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  Speaker 1: its volume. There are no required ingredients besides a liquid,
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  Speaker 1: which helps it maintain a high temperature without burning. Also,
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  Speaker 1: shout out to Food & Wine magazine.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean, I guess the question that immediately
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  Speaker 2: comes to mind for me and probably a lot of
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  Speaker 2: you out in the audience, is this sanitary? Is this legal? Okay,
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  Speaker 2: that's another good one. And then you start to ask yourself, well,
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  Speaker 2: maybe if it stays at a certain temperature, it kills
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  Speaker 2: all the germs forever. Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And then Wren hit us with another plot twist, folks.
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  Speaker 1: She said, What does perpetual stew have to do with
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  Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden?
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  Speaker 2: Wait a minute.
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  Speaker 1: Talk about a curveball. I know. I know.
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  Speaker 2: But here's our ad break. You know, Ben, I have
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  Speaker 2: always aspired to become a tavern wench.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's too late for me.
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  Speaker 1: No, of course not, man. I believe in you. I
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  Speaker 1: have your back, as you know, to a cartoonish degree. Uh, we,
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  Speaker 1: we have to say, uh, shout out to Tavern Witches. Uh,
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  Speaker 1: you're going somewhere with that, Dole, because we all recognize
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  Speaker 1: in the West, the fantasy, uh, trope of people going
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  Speaker 1: to the inn. You see it in video games like
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  Speaker 1: The Witcher, uh, Max and I love The Witcher. Uh,
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  Speaker 1: you see it in, of course, Lord of the Rings
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  Speaker 1: when the hobbits, uh, get to the town.
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  Speaker 2: They're running from the Wraiths.
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  Speaker 1: They're running from the Wraiths. You see it in Game
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  Speaker 1: of Thrones, an adaptation of the brilliant novel series Song
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  Speaker 1: of Ice and Fire.
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  Speaker 2: There was a real good tavern sequence in Night of
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  Speaker 2: the Seven Kingdoms that was sort of an inciting incident
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  Speaker 2: that led to the young secret prince being part of
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  Speaker 2: the crew. The Traveler of Kati, of two.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you.
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  Speaker 2: Dunk and Egg.
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  Speaker 1: Dunk and Egg, yes. And if you find yourself in
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  Speaker 1: this wide world encountering maybe a small off-the-beaten-path bed and breakfast,
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  Speaker 1: something like that, then you know that there's probably going
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  Speaker 1: to be a limited menu. There are probably going to
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  Speaker 1: be not too many customers there. And you probably also
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  Speaker 1: will realize that fantasy tropes have kind of embellished things.
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  Speaker 1: Those ale houses and taverns and inns of yesteryear, They
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  Speaker 1: weren't just for drinking. They weren't just meaderies. They were also,
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  Speaker 1: I love that term.
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  Speaker 2: Meaderies. Yeah, meaderies. And meat markets.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, sometimes uncomfortably so. But they were also, Noel, to
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  Speaker 1: borrow your earlier phrase, they were steweries. They were salons.
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  Speaker 1: They were cafes.
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  Speaker 2: It was the easiest thing to just kind of have on.
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  Speaker 2: I get it. Logistically, it makes sense. You didn't have
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  Speaker 2: to do much prep work other than just chop up
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  Speaker 2: whatever you had laying around because this was certainly, you know,
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  Speaker 2: these were often those types of joints. They didn't exactly
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  Speaker 2: have a specialized, you know, prefix menu. But they might
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  Speaker 2: come into some, you know, they had a little surplus
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  Speaker 2: of carrots that they didn't need for feeding the horses.
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  Speaker 2: They'd use them for feeding the people. Chop them up,
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  Speaker 2: throw them in the pot. It's always there, hanging in
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  Speaker 2: the hearth, always at a slow simmer. Yeah, this reminds
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  Speaker 2: me of two things. The first is a funny story
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  Speaker 2: from a fellow traveler, a friend of mine. He was
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  Speaker 2: I'm not going to say the specific place, but he
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  Speaker 2: was in a small town in a different part of
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  Speaker 2: the world and he was hungry. And so he walked
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  Speaker 2: into a place that he thought was an abandoned restaurant.
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  Speaker 1: He sat there. He said the service was horrible. They
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  Speaker 1: didn't have a menu. Eventually, they just bought him, you know,
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  Speaker 1: like some water or a beer and a pot of stew.
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  Speaker 1: And he ate it. And when it came time to
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  Speaker 1: pay the bill, the folks who gave him the stew
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  Speaker 1: told him this was their house and not a restaurant.
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  Speaker 1: They were just that nice. He had just walked in
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  Speaker 1: to this place and they wouldn't, you know, turn away
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  Speaker 1: a guest.
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's nice. What is that? The, uh, the, the,
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  Speaker 2: the God's hospitality, hospitality.
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  Speaker 1: There we are.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: You've broken bread with me.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Uh, also shout out to scary stories to tell in
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  Speaker 1: the dark, uh, the, or the old trope about stone soup.
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  Speaker 1: That's a great one.
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  Speaker 2: Ben, remember the episode of, are you afraid in the
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  Speaker 2: dark about the soup that made you like terrified? It was, uh,
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  Speaker 2: one of those Vink, Dr. Vink, Vink episodes. And he
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  Speaker 2: basically ran like a weird tavern in the middle of
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  Speaker 2: the woods and some Canadian teenager wandered into it. And
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  Speaker 2: there was this soup that, uh, you'd eat it and
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  Speaker 2: it would make you like hallucinate and see like your
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  Speaker 2: worst fear.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, I, I've got to check that out. I'm putting
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  Speaker 1: it on the list and, uh, I'm going to watch
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  Speaker 1: it at home though. I'm not going to go to
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  Speaker 1: an ale house, a tavern or an inn. Well, I
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  Speaker 1: might end up at a hotel for this, but, uh,
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  Speaker 1: We know there's a quick differentiation, courtesy of Red. Ale
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  Speaker 1: houses would serve your beer, your mead. Taverns apparently would
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  Speaker 1: serve wine. Inns, however, would serve beer, wine, and hot meals.
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  Speaker 1: This is where you would order the older equivalent of
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  Speaker 1: bar food, like you're hanging out at an amazing bar.
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  Speaker 1: dive bar or something, and you've got a bit of
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  Speaker 1: a craving, right? A bit of a hole in your stomach.
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  Speaker 1: So you look at their menu, you get, you know,
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  Speaker 1: a bag of chips or you get a side of
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  Speaker 1: fries and queso or whatever. In Britain, there's something called
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  Speaker 1: the Plowman's Lunch. Do you remember this?
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  Speaker 2: I don't think I know the Plowman's Lunch, but I
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  Speaker 2: do know that Hunter's Stew is a thing in Polish cuisine,
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  Speaker 2: which is probably similar to what you're talking about. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: Hunter's stew is, it can be a perpetual stew because
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  Speaker 2: we know in days past, innkeepers, like you described earlier,
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  Speaker 2: would just have a cauldron, a literal cauldron on the hearth.
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  Speaker 2: And they would say, oh, we've got some carrots or, right,
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  Speaker 2: we have some mushrooms. We might have gone big time.
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  Speaker 2: We might have some pepper and just pour it in there.
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  Speaker 2: and you would serve that to people if they wanted
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  Speaker 2: food along with their mead. Also often referred to as potage, potage, potage.
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  Speaker 2: I like that better. And it really was more of
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  Speaker 2: a logistical concern because of the feudal system. Medieval societies
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  Speaker 2: were organized into these clear social strata, you know, the upstairs,
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  Speaker 2: downstairs of it all, with the king at the top, way, way,
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  Speaker 2: way upstairs. Nobility and lords and clergymen next. Knights, of course,
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  Speaker 2: a little bit below nobility. And then peasants. of course,
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  Speaker 2: being the largest, poorest, and lowest of the classes. The
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  Speaker 2: Lord answered to the king, but oversaw the daily lives
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  Speaker 2: of his fiefdoms, the peasants, in town. Though the peasants
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  Speaker 2: did grow the crops and do all the work to
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  Speaker 2: keep those communities functioning, the Lord actually took a portion
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  Speaker 2: of their crops and their earnings, and in some cases
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  Speaker 2: could actually decide who a peasant might marry, or if
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  Speaker 2: they were to be allowed to leave the community and
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  Speaker 2: move to another village. Right.
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  Speaker 1: So what we're telling you here is at most points
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  Speaker 1: in this part of history, the majority of people did
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  Speaker 1: not have what we would call human rights. They did
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  Speaker 1: not have agency of transit. We're not going to get
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  Speaker 1: into prima noctis tonight, but there's a reason.
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  Speaker 2: That's the king's privilege, right?
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  Speaker 1: Right. There's a reason that Shibboleth exists. We know that
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  Speaker 1: I love your setup here, Noel, because we know that
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  Speaker 1: due to this feudal structure, if you are a serf,
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  Speaker 1: if you are a peasant, if you are the majority
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  Speaker 1: of the population, you live and die based on the harvest.
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  Speaker 1: So if your crops don't yield enough food from the soil,
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  Speaker 1: that means that you have not just nothing to sell,
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  Speaker 1: you have nothing to eat. And this is why stew
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  Speaker 1: is a catbird seat for folks.
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  Speaker 2: No, it's true. I mean, I understand. Stu, if I
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  Speaker 2: was to think of myself as my aspirational role of
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  Speaker 2: tavern wench, I would be surveying the contents of my
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  Speaker 2: fridge and all the little things that were maybe just
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  Speaker 2: on the edge of spoiling. Maybe, you know, what better
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  Speaker 2: way to use those sort of slightly soft carrots than
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  Speaker 2: throwing them in a pot where you can't really tell
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  Speaker 2: anymore that they were.
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  Speaker 1: You know, on the edge of spoiling.
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  Speaker 2: You can tell that both my co-host and I make
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  Speaker 2: a lot of soup. I mean, look, and I'm not
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  Speaker 2: saying I exclusively use soup for this purpose, but it
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  Speaker 2: is a really good one because, or, you know, it's
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  Speaker 2: almost like maybe using the avocado that's about to go
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: that ain't quite so pretty, but you throw it into
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  Speaker 2: a smoothie and you'd never know. It's not non-hygienic. Just
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  Speaker 2: nobody wants to necessarily look at it or eat the
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  Speaker 2: brown bits, but it doesn't mean that it's like dangerous
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  Speaker 2: or in any way like, you know, Bad for health. Contaminated.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, yeah. And this is interesting because the
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  Speaker 1: stew in question in our tavern wench innkeeper situation here,
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  Speaker 1: the stew in question is not necessarily using water for
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  Speaker 1: the peasantry of the time. This stew was using beer.
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  Speaker 1: The basis, the liquid basis of the stew was, was
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  Speaker 1: probably beer because it was just safer to drink.
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  Speaker 2: Well, beer is a great additive to a good soup
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  Speaker 2: or a stew or a braise.
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  Speaker 1: I like cheese and beer, broccoli soup, stuff like that.
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  Speaker 2: It adds a really nice little kick to it. I'll
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: use beer in a chili. Chili is the ultimate stew
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  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. What is chili if not
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  Speaker 2: sort of a stew?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and an aspiration for cumin. Just like we're saying, folks,
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  Speaker 1: these taverns relied on whatever was cheap, and available or leftover.
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  Speaker 1: So you would go in the back garden and you
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  Speaker 1: would collect parsley and sage and, you know, cousins of mint,
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  Speaker 1: and you would throw that into the stew. People would
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  Speaker 1: come to your tavern. You wouldn't have a menu. You
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  Speaker 1: would just give them stew if they ordered it. And
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  Speaker 1: if you go to like a fancier place, like the
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  Speaker 1: kind of place the Aristos would go to, then you
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  Speaker 1: would get increasingly cool cuts of meat with your stew.
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  Speaker 1: It'd still be the same kind of basic stew, but
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  Speaker 1: they would put in venison or veal, and then they
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  Speaker 1: would add the fancy spices that a lot of peasantry
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  Speaker 1: would never get a chance to taste.
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  Speaker 2: Ben, I have to conjecture that some horse ended up
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  Speaker 2: in there from time to time. Of course, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Are you kidding?
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  Speaker 2: A horse is a horse, of course, of course.
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  Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, yeah. I mean, it depends on what's available,
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  Speaker 1: and sometimes Especially after wartime, that would be dogs, maybe,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: or cats.
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  Speaker 2: Again, whatever's laying around. Whatever's around. I mean, you know,
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  Speaker 2: you might have to put down a mare, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and what are you going to do? Let that meat
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  Speaker 2: go to waste? Hell no. I mean, as we mentioned,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, these folks were kind of living hand to mouth, literally.
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  Speaker 2: So you would definitely throw some of that, some of
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  Speaker 2: those choicest bits of the horse into the stew.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And now, okay, so let's say I'm an innkeeper
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  Speaker 1: and I'm doing my best to keep the medieval version
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: of Gordon Ramsay from coming into my restaurant and embarrassing me.
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  Speaker 1: So I want to be efficient. That means I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to save time. I'm going to serve a very simple menu.
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  Speaker 1: Gordon loves that. We'll have the stew. We'll have bread.
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  Speaker 1: And If it's available, we might have cheese. We might
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  Speaker 1: have some older smoked meat. We simmer this stew 24
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: hours per day, seven days a week. And it makes
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  Speaker 1: it easier for us as innkeepers and tavern wenches to
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: keep customers fed, which means we don't have extensive prep
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: work all the time, right? You just throw the stuff
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: in there. went into the cauldron when you have the stuff.
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  Speaker 2: Well, and I just want to point out too, um,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: some of the best, you know, uh, masters of, of
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: soup and stewery, like ramen chefs, uh, they will simmer
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: their bone broths, you know, for sometimes days and days
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: at a time or however many it's definitely time is, uh,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: often what makes the tenderest of, of meats and the
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: most savory and, uh, flavorful of broths. You know, if
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I'm going to make a chili or a beef stew,
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  Speaker 2: for example, I want to cook it low and slow
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  Speaker 2: for a really, really long time. So this perpetual stew idea,
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  Speaker 2: the more I think about it, the more I think
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  Speaker 2: I'd try it.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Have you not?
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  Speaker 2: No, I'm not. Where's the best perpetual stew joint in
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  Speaker 2: Atlanta or New York?
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Let's get to it. There are some in the United States,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: maybe not in Atlanta. You've nailed it there, Noel. Then
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: as now, people are working with what they have in
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: the most creative way possible. We know that over a
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: thousand years of the medieval period, there were seasons that
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: had a lot of rainfall. So if you go to
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Johann Gutenberg University, you'll see the following. It's a little
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: bit of an involved quote, but it sets up the
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: rest of the story perfectly.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: The late Middle Ages were characterized by two distinct wet periods.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: What's the stupid? It's not a part of the wet period.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: In Central Europe in the 13th and 14th century, separated
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: by dry summer weather between 1300 and 1340. The increase
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: in summer rainfall between 1350 and 1370 is remarkable and
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: occurred exactly at the time when the plague broke out
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: and spread across the entire European continent. Yeah, you don't
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: want wet weather when there's plague going. That's gonna, it's
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: gonna aid in the spread of it. Right. You always
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: talk about people saying, you know, convalescing, uh, in dry climates,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: you know, you definitely don't want to be sick, um,
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  Speaker 2: or have a, have a communicable disease when the weather
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: is wetter.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And so this constant rain, which, you know,
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  Speaker 1: sounds good for crops, this constant rain flooded the fields
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  Speaker 1: and now the people working in the agricultural industries can't
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  Speaker 1: really harvest those crops. So they're running out of wheat
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: and barley. If we're talking about the big floods during
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: this time period, livestock drowned or they got sick because
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: of that swampy standing water. They starved to death.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: People got swamp butt, foot rot.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, swamp butt, foot rot. Watch out for them.
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  Speaker 2: And then you've got, of course, the plague, the Black Death.
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  Speaker 1: Insult to injury, man. Yeah, so now we don't, just
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  Speaker 1: have a dearth of food, we have a shortage of
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: living people. So the food you can buy is at a.
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  Speaker 2: Way higher price because there are way fewer people who
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: can make it.
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  Speaker 1: The solution? Stew.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, stew. You had me at stew. It's, in fact,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: a really, really great way to warm your weary bones
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: of a cold and rainy evening, especially if you're a
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: hut owner. A roof is made of thatch, for example,
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  Speaker 2: and is not really doing a great job of keeping
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: that wet and cold out. You don't have to have bread.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: It'd be nice, but not required. You know bread for dipping?
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Throw it all in there. Put it in a bread bowl.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: How do you feel about bread bowls, Ben? I think
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: they're a little extra, but I do enjoy one from
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: time to time.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, nice crusty bread bowl, especially if it's good bread.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Once a year, I'd say. On a cold night, I'll
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: take a bread bowl.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: There is an excellent Polish restaurant in Brooklyn called Karzma,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: and they do these hot white borschts in a bread bowl,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: and it's phenomenal. It's one of my favorites. It comes
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: with a hard-boiled egg in it and sausage and stuff,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: and it's creamy. kind of pickly almost tasting soup. Because
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: typically people think of borscht as like a red, red, red,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: cold beet soup, which is not my bag. But hot
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: white borscht is pretty fantastic, especially in a bread bowl.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: I am on board with this. And you'll have to do,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: can you text me the name of that restaurant?
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Sure, we'll take you there myself one day. So it's
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: a fabulous spot. I'd love to go. Let's take Max too. And,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: you know, this is operationally, objectively for people in this
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: time period, It is the worst time of their lives.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: It's the worst time to be alive.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: There's rain. There's famine. Everyone you love is dying. The
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: nobility still kind of sucks. So what we see is
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: that disease and famine and privation are hitting every imaginable demographic.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: The nobility is feeling the pinch as well. So The
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: surviving peasantry, the surviving majority of society is able to
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: gain bargaining power with these aristocrats that were pretty much
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: slave owners such that these peasants can go to the
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: rulers of the day and say, we want higher wages.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: We need more land. We can have a revolution or
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: you can be cool. This overturned the feudal system. And
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Stu was a part of it because Stu kept him going.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: How do you feel about the name Stu as a
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: short name for Stuart?
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about that. I was thinking about that.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: One of my favorite characters.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: I think it's cute.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. One of my favorite characters from a Stephen King
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: novel called The Stand is named Stuart Redman. And I
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: like Stu. I prefer Stu to Stuart.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know why. Stu was the name of Tommy's
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: dad in Rugrats cartoon.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Stew pickles. Yeah.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Stewie was the baby.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Dude, we need a stew in the crew.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: No, I'm thinking of Stewie Griffin. Oh, that's a different stew.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: That's right. But a stew was the dad on Rugrats.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Yes. And we'll go to the hill on that one, folks.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: We also need a stew in the crew. And we
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: have to point out to the earlier question, where is
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: the best perpetual stew? It's pretty fascinating because you can
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: tell there's some parallel thinking here in a culinary milieu.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Perpetual stew is not unique to medieval European culture. Some
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: of the longest simmering extant stews can be found over
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: in Asia.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, again, like the ramen situation, that broth is a history.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: of slow, slow, long simmers that really, I mean, it is,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: if you're into cooking, you know that that is how
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: you get those flavors to come out, to truly get infused.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Time is everything when it comes to proper cooking.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. And without being that unfortunate meme of a
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Westerner who visits Japan and comes back performative, we can
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: tell you that the oldest continuously simmering soup as of September,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: 2026 comes from Japan. It's at a restaurant called Otafuku
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: and Otafuku serves a stew called Odin that they've been
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: cooking continually 24 hours a day, seven days a week
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: since 1945. Dude.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Okay. I'm going, uh, you gotta give me a text
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: me the name. Cause I think I mentioned on this
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: pod that I'm going to Japan in November, um, with my,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: So I'm super down to try that, if only for
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: podcast reasons. Awesome.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: Did you?
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: It was. I have not tried that one, but I have.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: I'm an enthusiast.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: You've had some long soups.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Elderly soups.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: I see.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: I've sipped some elderly soups. We know that. It's interesting, Noel,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: because we know that this restaurant, their perpetual stew in 1916,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: and they had an interruption due to World War II.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, man. World War II always is messing up everyone's
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: perpetual stew and everything else. The next oldest continuous stew,
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: if you wish, can be enjoyed at a place called
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: Watana Panich, a family-run restaurant in Bangkok in Thailand. This
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: is a beef stew I was mentioning. It's been cooking
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: for more than 60 years. The main ingredients include, according
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: to NPR and the restaurant themselves, nearly a dozen Chinese
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: herbs plus garlic, cinnamon, black pepper, cilantro root, and 150
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: pounds of beef per day. Another culinary note is the
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: type of meat you use usually in beef stew, stew meat,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: you really have to cook it for a really long
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: time at low heat for it to even be edible.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: If you tried to just like, you know, give that
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: a quick pan sear, you're going to be chewing on
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: that bad boy for a long time. So the way
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: to break down the fibers in the meat is by slowly,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: you know, cooking, cooking it. Yeah.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: And astute, ridiculous historians, you heard what we said, 150
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: pounds of beef per day. So they're selling a lot
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: of stew.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: They're slinging some stew.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: But also we have to wonder if they're in on
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: a technicality because the owner's of Watana Paniche, they say
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: that they clean the stew pot nightly by removing most
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: of the stew and leaving a little bit in the
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: bottom to retain the flavor.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: It's like the Olympic flame. You know, you got to
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: have a little bit of the original left to say
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: that it is perpetual. I'm intrigued, man. It's sort of
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: a weird flex at this point in history, I would argue.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: You know, it's like, look what we're doing. Whereas back
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: in the olden times, the medieval times, it was a
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: little more of a product of necessity, right? Now it's like,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: I don't think anybody has to do this anymore, but
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: it's an interesting tradition to carry on. But I think
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I posed the million, at least $ 100 question at the
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: top of the show is like, is this safe?
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, asterisk, caveat, fine print. It is safe if
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: it is cooked correctly. And a lot of it goes
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: down to the science of this. So You got to
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: keep your stew at a consistently high temperature because you're
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: always in a war with bacteria.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: If you go to.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: University of Georgia's Center for Food Safety, you'll get some
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: specific stats. Stew has to be at a temperature continually
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: greater than 140 degrees Fahrenheit to make sure it's safe
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: for people to eat.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: So it does kill all the germs. That low and
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: slow has got to be at least up to 140
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: degrees Fahrenheit. Don't want it to drop below that for
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: long at all, or else you can get some bacteria
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: starting to form. It can also be tough to tell
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: if the stew has gone rancid. This is kind of gross.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to lie. Because there is no distinct
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: flavor profile. I think I could taste if the stew
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: was off, though, even if despite whatever the flavor profile
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: might be. Rancid, the word, it's just very triggering for me. Like,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: you know how moist bothers some people? Rancid does it
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: for me. Don't love it.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a brilliant point, though, because if you're
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: kind of doing a soup du jour or flavor of
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: the day with whatever you have available, you don't. you
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: cannot logically know what the perfect perpetual stew tastes like
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: because it changes all the time.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: It certainly feels like quite an inexact science. I don't
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: think anyone is shooting for culinary mastery in these perpetual stews.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: It's a little bit more of like, let's throw some
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: stuff at the wall and hope nobody dies of food poisoning.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little more impressionist art, let's say, than hyper-realism.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: we also promised the story of Lizzie Borden. We have
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: to get to this. We'll have a bit of a stuff.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: They don't want you to know a Venn diagram here. No,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: you remember Lizzie from earlier, right? Sure.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: She's the one that took an ax and gave her
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: mother 40 wax. And when she saw what she had done,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: she gave her father 41.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, that is the story. And the rhyme scheme is
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: ethics aside, pretty spot on.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: But, But the issue, as Wren points out, is that
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: this little ditty, despite being a banger, is not accurate.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: We know in August of 1892, and we are getting
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: to soup here, folks, Lizzie Borden used a hatchet, not
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: a double-handed axe, to bludgeon her father and her stepmother
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: to death. That is true.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Ben, not even Eminem could rhyme things with hatchet. Oh, wait.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: I'm just joking. That's a challenge to you, Em. I
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: know you're listening. Yeah. I can already think of one,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: and it's Ratchet.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. If you're willing to catch it, then we can
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: match it, right? So the thing is here, and thanks
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: for tuning in, Marshall. The thing is that we have
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: learned there was arguably a second murder weapon in the
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden case, Stu Gone Bad.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: No. Dude, how does this even work, Ben? How does,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: I don't understand. She was dual wielding with the hatchet
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: in one hand and a cauldron of bad stew in
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: the other?
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Just think of the upper arm strike there, right?
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: How many whacks did she give her father with the
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: bad stew Right.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: And we do know Lizzie Borden and her family lived
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: in a place called Fall River, Massachusetts. So if you're
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: playing along at home, that's a little south of Boston.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Her dad was an investor who had made a lot
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: of money in the financial sphere, but he was one
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: of those quiet, He wasn't living in a mansion. They
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: had a modest home. They were not in a fancy
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: pants neighborhood. Lizzie was, according to historians, kind of miffed
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: about this. She wanted to live more of the high life.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: She wanted to live on the hill. Still a very
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: fancy area of Boston today.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: The hill. Yes. Yeah, you can tell. Remember, in the
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: olden days, that was kind of what separated the rich
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: from the poor. The rich people lived up on the hill,
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: and the poor people lived down in the valley.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Dude, it still happens in New Orleans.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: I know. I guess that is true, yeah. Because up
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: on the hill, you've got more protection because you can
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: see the bad guys coming. Yeah, yeah.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Give it up, Anakin. We have the high ground. So-
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: This is a source of tension for the Borden family.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: And her father's preferred neighborhood is just not doing it
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: for Lizzie. She is also, by all accounts, a staunch Protestant.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: And she's kind of pissed that there are a lot
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: of Catholics moving in. Ruh-roh.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Ruh-roh. This sounds like a recipe for disaster. Although Fall
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: River Society saw the Bordens as godly, church-going folks, upstanding
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: members of the community, tensions did begin to brew.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Could we say stew?
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: You could say stew, in fact. In fact, you should.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: In fact, I don't know why I didn't, and I'll
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: never forgive myself for that. So it's stewing and brewing
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: behind these closed doors at the time that the murder occurred.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Lizzie was only 32. unmarried, living at home still with
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: her parents. And she did not care for this arrangement.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because the patriarchy then as now is still in
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: full cartoonish evil effect. Lizzie is at this time considered
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: a spinster because she's 32 and has not been married.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Her father kept shutting down suitors who would come to
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: court her And he would say, these guys are gold diggers.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: They're fortune hunters.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: And Lizzie is saying, I know we're rich, Dad.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: Why do I have to live like a commoner? She said,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: I deserve a better life. And I hate how you're
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: so cheap. You're basically keeping me in prison.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Yikes. Bit of title there, Lizzie. Yeah.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, come on. If you're 14, I get it.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: I get being edgy. But if you're 32... I don't know.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: She also had some pretty valid criticisms, though.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: That's fair. Yeah. Well, Ben, I guess we should probably
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: get to the murdery bite of the stew.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: We promised. We should deliver.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, we promised that we should deliver. The Borden family
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: did own an icebox, kind of the predecessor of the
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: modern day refrigerator. But These iceboxes did not run on electricity.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: This is a very weird time for the refrigeration industry.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: This is where there were entire businesses that would travel
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: up north and get huge blocks of ice, cover it
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: with straw, and then run like hell back down to
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: their customers. So they had these big blocks of ice
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: in a wooden chest that was lined with zinc or tin,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: and the idea was you would be able to keep
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: stuff cool doing that. Unfortunately, the Borden murders happened in August.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, it'd be unfortunate whichever month they happened in.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Ice melts when it melts.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Nobody wants to get murdered in the hot, hot heat
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: of the summer. Let's just do it in stew weather.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: It's nice and cool. Speaking of it.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Speaking of it.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: It's best time to get murdered.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: As Atlanta natives, yeah. We know ice melts when it's
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: hot outside. So the Borden's icebox is useless. And directly
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: before the murders, the day before Lizzie Borden kills her family,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: their family maid, a woman named Bridget, cooks a pot
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: of stew. And I believe, Noel, it's mutton stew. So
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: they had leftover sheep, I guess.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. I do love a good mutton stew. Lamb is
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: my favorite of all the meats. That's right, Ben. Then
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Bridget left the stew in the pot to cool until
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: it reached room temperature. She then reheated the stew for
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: dinner that night and then left it to come cool again. Whoops. Yeah, guys,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: I already know. You're not supposed to do that. You're
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: not supposed to, I think, I think you're not even
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: supposed to like thaw a frozen piece of meat and
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: then refreeze it. Right. Because if it keeps changing state
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: like that and temperatures, I think that is a real
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: no-no in terms of creating a breeding ground for pathogens.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: A hundred percent. You nailed it. So we've got two
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: cooling periods and reheating periods. And on that second cooling period,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Bridget leaves the stew to sit overnight inside the house,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: no air conditioning, dog days of summer. It's August, right?
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: The next morning, she reheats the stew for a third
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: time and she serves it to the family as breakfast.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Who's the real murderer here? I think it's this Bridget character.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, we don't have my stew murder by stew.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: We don't have her hands on the hatchet. But I
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: hear where you're coming from. This is this is the
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: really interesting part. And I think you and Max and
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: I did not know this. During breakfast, Lizzie did not
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: join her father and stepmother for their repast. So her
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: parents later take ill with what we suspect could be
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: food poisoning. while Lizzie Borden is alive and well, physically.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Probably mentally in a very difficult place, but physically fine.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Lizzie's father and stepmother were murdered shortly after
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: breakfast was served, as they recovered from their stew poisoning
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: in separate rooms. There were no reports of anyone, including Lizzie,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: coming or going from the home within the time frame
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: the murders occurred, but Lizzie was the only logical suspect.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: The Victorian sensibilities of the community would not allow them
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: to believe, however, that a faithful woman of good standing
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: could have committed such a vile and heinous crime.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and as a result, Lizzie Borden was acquitted. Because
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: she was found innocent, she was now legally eligible to
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: inherit her share of her father's estate. This was approximately
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: $ 300, 000 at the time. Could we inflation calculate?
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, boop. And a boop.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: That is $ 10 million today.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Get yourself a nice 14-room mansion on the hill with
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: money like that, couldn't you, Ben?
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's just what she did.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Isn't it? You know what they say, Willy Wonka himself,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: whatever happened to the woman who got everything she wanted?
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: She lived happily ever after. We also, weirdly enough, backstage,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: we have kind of a Willy Wonka vibe going on
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: because we met Ben from Ben & Jerry's. Boy, did
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: we have And, you know, what is ice cream if
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: not frozen stew?
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: You were on fire today, man. I'm loving these quotables.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: We know that despite the fact that Lizzie Borden did
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: get acquitted and did encounter the opulent lifestyle she had
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: always aspired to, she was a pariah. She was a
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: social outcast up until her death in 1927 when she
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: was 66 years old. To this very day, I didn't
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: know this, to this very day, official records list the
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Borden family murders as unsolved.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Unsolved. Ben, we got a few little bits of tangents
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: and trivia here at the end, but I think we
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: should add this to our upcoming tangents and trivia-a-thon and
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: wrap this up with a nice old history murder mystery.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: You could say we're going to put this into the
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: perpetual stew of our leftovers episode. You've been saving that
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: this whole time.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: You monster.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: It's true.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: I'm going to simmer on it. I'm going to simmer
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: on it.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Simmer down now.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Simmer down. We cannot thank you enough for joining us today, folks.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: Big thanks to our super producer, Max of Freight Train Williams.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: Big thanks to our research associate, the legendary Ren.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Who else?
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Who else?
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Well, geez, Ben, Jonathan Strickland, a.k.a. The Quister. I know,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: I know. A.J. Bahamas, Jacobs, The Puzzler.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: And of course, the rude dudes of Ridiculous Crime. If
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: you dig us, you'll love them. Big shout out as
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: well to Christopher Haciotis, Eve's Jeffcoat, Here in Spirit. Noel,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: I know this happens all the time. We've been doing
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: this for years now. Well, we skipped lunch to record
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: and now we're doing another episode about food. Is it time?
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Is it soup time?
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: It's not quite stewy enough out there for me.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Not yet.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: But ramen would be– there's a good ramen spot nearby
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: that is again on the verge of stew. I'm going
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: to have a little ramen. Somehow ramen doesn't feel as
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: heavy as stew and I think I can do a
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: bit of a late snack. ramen.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Okay. Well, folks, I'm not going to eat on air
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: because Max and I both have pretty severe misophonia.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: That's true. And it's a good thing because we're ending
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: the episode now, aren't we?
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, we are.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.