Latest / All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting / 128. What a holistic nurse wants every parent dealing with pain to know - Julia Bitter

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128. What a holistic nurse wants every parent dealing with pain to know - Julia Bitter · All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting

• 0:00
  Welcome back to the All figured out podcast.
• 0:02
  My name is Andrea Barr. I am your host, have been since
• 0:06
  the start. So you're stuck with me and I
• 0:09
  want to say thank you for joining me again this week.
• 0:11
  Thank you for those of you who are watching on YouTube.
• 0:15
  If you haven't checked us out on YouTube, go give it a whirl.
• 0:18
  I'll figure it out with Andrea Barr.
• 0:20
  Very easy to find. You could just Google it.
• 0:22
  And if you're ever doing your dishes or want to throw me up on
• 0:25
  your TV while you're cleaning up the toys, try it out.
• 0:30
  Check it out. I, there's a few podcasts I like
• 0:32
  listening to that way. And often I go back and forth.
• 0:35
  So just another way you can get me in your eyes now and ears.
• 0:39
  But our episode this week came at such a good time.
• 0:44
  I, Oh my gosh, my family all got really sick.
• 0:49
  Like they just had nothing like that dramatic, but just like
• 0:52
  back-to-back to back, everyone was sick.
• 0:54
  There was gastro, there was like a flu.
• 0:56
  I don't know what was going on. And I was just walking around
• 0:59
  posting on my stories being like, ah, I am not getting sick.
• 1:04
  Look at me, look at my immune system.
• 1:07
  And I really did survive. I didn't get any of their gross
• 1:10
  germs. It was like one day I didn't
• 1:11
  feel great and then something struck.
• 1:17
  And it's this thing that I describe in this episode today
• 1:21
  with Julia Bitter and I share a little bit about this thing that
• 1:24
  I get. It's this like Abscess in my
• 1:26
  throat. It is so bizarre.
• 1:28
  It an Abscess is just like an infection, something that starts
• 1:32
  to swell up. And it doesn't sound.
• 1:33
  It's like, OK, yeah, sore throat, but it's so incredibly
• 1:36
  painful. And I was saying.
• 1:38
  And the first time it happened was at one of my best friends
• 1:41
  weddings. And I was doing a reading and I
• 1:44
  like barely got through the reading and I didn't wanna tell
• 1:47
  her. I actually didn't tell her until
• 1:48
  like weeks later, maybe one of her other friends, they didn't
• 1:51
  wanna like rain on her parade. Anyways, I had this Abscess and
• 1:54
  like, my throat starts to swell and it's like, it's quite a big
• 1:57
  deal because it's the airway, but I know now how to manage it.
• 2:01
  Like I need a steroid, I need an antibiotic and this whole thing.
• 2:04
  Anyways, I get into it on the on the episode today, but it was
• 2:07
  such amazing timing that was actually kind of sucked, but
• 2:11
  it's good timing that I was coming off the heels of
• 2:15
  something complicated and recurrent and painful.
• 2:20
  Because in the discussion today with Julia Bitter, we talk about
• 2:24
  the work that she does now after having a few variations and
• 2:27
  deviations in her career. We talk about pain and what it
• 2:31
  can really do to you and how you can self manage in situations
• 2:34
  where you feel like you are trying to figure out how to
• 2:38
  advocate for yourself or like the head isn't talking to the
• 2:41
  hand, AKA our medical system in some situations.
• 2:45
  Where are you? I was saying like I get really
• 2:47
  pissed off when this happens. Like why me?
• 2:50
  You know, I kind of go down that like what with me rabbit hole.
• 2:53
  And then couple that with sometimes not feeling like I'm
• 2:56
  hurt or like really having to try to use my voice to say I
• 3:00
  know what this is. I know my body.
• 3:02
  This is the sixth time this has happened.
• 3:05
  I'm always in the ER for it, even though I'm not stressed
• 3:09
  anymore because I'm like, I know what this is, I know how to fix
• 3:11
  it. However, the course of treatment
• 3:13
  is not given to me. They say it's viral.
• 3:16
  They anyways, sorry I'm like going on a big tangent here
• 3:19
  about this like situation. But all that to say it was just
• 3:22
  such perfect timing because I was just found myself getting so
• 3:25
  fired up on behalf of people, parents specifically, who are
• 3:29
  living with chronic illness, who are living with autoimmune
• 3:32
  conditions, who are living with pain day in and day out or they
• 3:36
  have flare ups that happen and you can't plan this stuff.
• 3:39
  So you know, I had a big week. Like I did 2 in person podcast
• 3:43
  recordings yesterday. I just recorded with Julia today
• 3:45
  just now and I had a really big, exciting week that I was really
• 3:50
  looking forward to. And I'm a mom of two and you
• 3:53
  know, that role in particular people, we can move
• 3:56
  appointments, we can move recordings and things like that.
• 3:59
  But that role of mother as parent, as one of the heads of
• 4:03
  the household, like that's one that is a really hard factor in
• 4:07
  these situations. And I just loved the
• 4:11
  conversation with Julia that I just had.
• 4:13
  She had an has an incredible story in terms of getting into a
• 4:18
  field that is supposed to be really stable and she was
• 4:23
  displaced 3 times. So she's a nurse.
• 4:26
  She studied psychology like did all the things that are like you
• 4:29
  have a job for life. And in three different
• 4:31
  situations she was displaced all the while raising two children.
• 4:36
  The first displacement happened when she had a toddler.
• 4:38
  And it's just the story is so crazy and she has such a
• 4:41
  beautiful outlook on how every single time she asked herself
• 4:45
  like, what could I learn from this?
• 4:47
  And she is now, as she describes it, not to spoil it, but she
• 4:50
  says I am in my dream job now. And she's an entrepreneur.
• 4:55
  So she's like still working in the system, supporting people in
• 4:59
  a way that she loves. And she is now a registered
• 5:04
  nurse still. She's a clinical coordinator.
• 5:06
  And she is a certified holistic nurse coach and the founder of
• 5:11
  Safe Space Healing. She helps people stop fighting
• 5:15
  their bodies and learn how to work with them.
• 5:17
  We get into it in a lot of detail in this episode to really
• 5:19
  understand, like what that means, how people like this can
• 5:23
  help the everyday person. And we actually have a really
• 5:26
  big discussion about pain. And I think it's really
• 5:29
  fascinating. And I think it's really
• 5:31
  fascinating from that perspective of a lot of people.
• 5:33
  I said it like, everyone's got their shit.
• 5:35
  You know, some people, it's like anything, Some people it's an
• 5:38
  autoimmune thing, something pain can come from like the stomach.
• 5:41
  Like if you have gut issues, like that's a form of pain and
• 5:44
  we talk about pain in general and self management.
• 5:47
  So like it's great to have all the specialists, but like, what
• 5:50
  can you do about it as well? How can you live a well life?
• 5:54
  I love this. I love this conversation.
• 5:57
  It's so grounded and I just so appreciate everything that Julia
• 6:02
  shared and that there's people like her in the world that can
• 6:05
  help us parents live well. And she even talks about like,
• 6:09
  not just living without pain, but like, how could you actually
• 6:13
  feel even better than you ever thought possible?
• 6:15
  It is inspiring, It's uplifting. You're going to learn so much.
• 6:19
  Without further ado, I bring you Julia Bitter.
• 6:27
  This is all figured out. I'm Andrea Barr.
• 6:29
  I'm a career coach for parents, a mom of two, and I absolutely
• 6:33
  believe that you can continue to grow personally and
• 6:36
  professionally while protecting family time.
• 6:41
  We're about to figure out this work, life and parenting stuff
• 6:44
  out together. Julia Bitter, thank you so much
• 6:54
  for joining me on the All Figured Out podcast.
• 6:57
  Finally, we're doing it you just before we hit record.
• 7:02
  You're like, I am so sorry. Can I just step away for a
• 7:04
  second? You live at the end of what I
• 7:07
  assume is very long driveway on five acres and there was a man
• 7:10
  at your window. Yeah, I don't know what that was
• 7:14
  all about. Yeah, So that must be, that must
• 7:17
  be interesting when you have people on your property.
• 7:19
  Like, for me, I'm like, yeah, I live in a townhouse.
• 7:20
  Like people are everywhere constantly.
• 7:23
  But I, I wanted to start there and to share that with the
• 7:26
  audience because, man, what a story it is for you to get to
• 7:30
  where you are today on this five acres of land.
• 7:34
  Equestrian things happening, animals, You've got a new puppy
• 7:37
  upstairs, all the things. But it wasn't, it wasn't always
• 7:42
  like that, no. So we are going to dive into
• 7:45
  your story of having what would most people consider to be an
• 7:49
  extremely stable job, A job that is always needed, nursing,
• 7:54
  psychology, what you studied and being displaced 6 times in your
• 8:00
  role. Was it was.
• 8:03
  It was. Great.
• 8:05
  Three times in six years? Yeah, three times in six years.
• 8:07
  That's what like 6. But 3 is a lot in your field to
• 8:12
  take us back to you complete your nursing, your psychology
• 8:16
  degrees, clearly very book smart and you're in this field and you
• 8:21
  start getting displaced, which I'm sure there's listeners here
• 8:24
  who have been displaced from their jobs before.
• 8:27
  Take us back to that time. What was going on for you?
• 8:29
  How did you manage all of that? Yeah, that was that was a really
• 8:33
  interesting time because I didn't even really know about
• 8:39
  this possibility. Once you're now you're a nurse
• 8:42
  in a union, like you said, just kind of assumed to be a pretty
• 8:46
  stable trajectory. But there was some restructuring
• 8:52
  and folks with more seniority were able to then go in and kind
• 8:59
  of bump out junior nurses. And, and at that time, I was
• 9:05
  working in a home health as a case manager and I thought that
• 9:11
  I had absolutely found my dream job.
• 9:14
  That took me a while to get into that area of nursing.
• 9:17
  It's not that well known and and it felt like it was the perfect
• 9:22
  click for me. And I remember getting the call
• 9:24
  from my manager to come in to his office and justice, no idea
• 9:30
  what was about to happen. And when he explained to me that
• 9:34
  I was losing my job and he going through this displacement
• 9:37
  process that I'd never even heard of, I remember just
• 9:41
  bursting out in tears and telling him like, this is my
• 9:44
  dream job. Like I, this is what I was meant
• 9:46
  to do as a nurse. Um, and that was in like 2016.
• 9:55
  So it's been about 10 years and I'm in a completely new world in
• 10:00
  nursing. I have to ask you, Julia, give
• 10:05
  it knowing what you know now and we're going to keep the story
• 10:07
  going, but knowing that what you know now, do you believe that
• 10:09
  there's not necessarily one soul mate for every career, for every
• 10:14
  person in their career? Like do you believe that you can
• 10:16
  fall in love totally different like with different jobs?
• 10:21
  Yes, yes, exactly. And like, I could have, I could
• 10:25
  have just stayed in that area and probably flourished and did
• 10:30
  amazing. But that wasn't the path that
• 10:33
  was for me. And it took a lot of like twists
• 10:36
  and turns and unexpected things. But I'm, I'm really grateful for
• 10:43
  the journey that it took me on. I never expected.
• 10:46
  So what did you do next? How did you take that
• 10:49
  experience? It sounds like it was maybe
• 10:51
  quite niche. So it's not like there's jobs of
• 10:53
  that nature popping up all over the place.
• 10:55
  How did you how did you make that next?
• 10:57
  Because I know there's a couple of leaps that you took from
• 10:59
  there. How did you make that first big
• 11:01
  leap out of that displacement, being so shocked?
• 11:03
  Yeah, I was so shocked. I had a a young toddler as well
• 11:08
  and a few years old and he had just been moved into the daycare
• 11:12
  in the building that my office is in.
• 11:15
  Like I felt like I got all my ducks in a row.
• 11:18
  Everything's perfect. I was walking distance to the
• 11:21
  office like, Oh my gosh, it was so perfect as I thought at that
• 11:24
  time. And so trying to figure out what
• 11:28
  will work for me as a parent with a young child and childcare
• 11:34
  and all of those things. I was given a long list of
• 11:39
  people who are more junior than me that I could then displace.
• 11:42
  Felt really uncomfortable with the whole process.
• 11:46
  I'm sorry, Julia, you were given a list of the names and it was
• 11:49
  like who you want to bump. You could you would be picking
• 11:53
  who you bumped. Yeah, that is bizarre.
• 11:56
  Yeah, it's it is kind of the process and it works for some
• 12:00
  people. But I actually, this has
• 12:02
  happened to me now three times as we talked about.
• 12:05
  I've never done it back. I've always been really lucky
• 12:08
  enough to find an opportunity to create something new for myself
• 12:14
  instead of going through and doing all of that.
• 12:18
  And So what I did is I took a risk and I applied for a casual
• 12:24
  leadership position in home health.
• 12:27
  So being an educator, um, in home health and it was a
• 12:31
  guaranteed if I had displaced someone, you know, I would have
• 12:35
  stayed as a regular employee. This was a short term contract
• 12:42
  and I thought this is an amazing opportunity really to go out to
• 12:47
  humid over and I thought I'll just take the risk and and went
• 12:51
  into leadership and teaching new employees, new staff in Fraser
• 12:57
  Health into home health, how to do different skills.
• 13:02
  And that started to build my awareness on things like
• 13:07
  motivational interviewing and more like self-care practices.
• 13:12
  But just yes, feel the passion and and I think my manager saw
• 13:18
  that in in me and created a full time position out of it.
• 13:23
  Wow. But that was not the final
• 13:26
  displacement. No, no, no.
• 13:30
  So I did that for a year as a clinical nurse educator as they
• 13:36
  would say. And this is at a regional
• 13:38
  position. So anybody who is new into
• 13:42
  Fraser Health home health would come through these classes and
• 13:45
  we would kind of teach an 8 weeks orientation program.
• 13:50
  And then I went on my second maternity leave and while I was
• 13:54
  away they disbanded the regional team.
• 13:57
  And so they made each kind of home health office have its own
• 14:02
  educators, and those were going to be part time.
• 14:08
  So I had been working part time. And you know, after coming off
• 14:14
  of the second maternity leave, I really didn't want to go back
• 14:17
  full time. I also was still not wanting to
• 14:21
  do that whole displacement process where I have looked at
• 14:25
  the list and that kind of thing. I had no idea that was a thing.
• 14:29
  That is so I know logically on paper, maybe it makes sense, but
• 14:34
  that is, wow, how I know you're probably not looking the
• 14:37
  person's name and you're like, yeah, Sally, I should bump her.
• 14:39
  You're looking at like the job title on whatever.
• 14:42
  But still. Oh my gosh, I actually can't get
• 14:44
  over this. It's so weird.
• 14:46
  It is. And I think it's really common
• 14:48
  in a lot of the unionized positions actually.
• 14:52
  So thankfully, we had just newly created a new clinic called a
• 14:59
  community pain management program.
• 15:02
  I didn't know what that was, but it was in my old office, the one
• 15:06
  that I had first ever been displaced from, which was
• 15:09
  walking distance with my kids daycare in that building and the
• 15:14
  hours that I wanted. And something in me intuition
• 15:18
  just said go for it. And no idea like what pain
• 15:23
  management clinic was all about in home health.
• 15:25
  I was working with Gary Actrix, you know, older folks.
• 15:30
  And I thought like that was my absolute passion.
• 15:33
  This was going to be a little bit of a different scope and and
• 15:37
  type of people to work with. I didn't know anything about it
• 15:41
  but I thought it will work for me and my work life balance at
• 15:45
  least. Yeah.
• 15:47
  Wow, risk. So you took it.
• 15:50
  I have to tell you that I don't know if I told you this when we
• 15:52
  had our intro chat, but I had one experience with my husband's
• 15:57
  health journey that I think I was telling you about.
• 15:59
  He has a big, really long cardiac history.
• 16:02
  And most recently, I guess now five years ago, he went through
• 16:05
  a lot of surgeries and there was some really complex pain that he
• 16:09
  was experiencing as a result of the surgeries, like really out
• 16:12
  of control, actually quite scary pain.
• 16:14
  Like at one point he was like, I feel like I'm going to have a
• 16:17
  heart attack because I'm in so much pain.
• 16:19
  Like he was like, is that a thing?
• 16:21
  And we had this unbelievable doctor come in who unbeknownst
• 16:26
  to us, there's this whole world called Complex Pain.
• 16:29
  And he came in and there was something about his energy.
• 16:32
  There was just something about him.
• 16:33
  And I was like, wow, what an incredible line of work to be
• 16:38
  in. And he was followed by the
• 16:40
  complex pain team for a while, even post discharge, because he
• 16:44
  was on heavy narcotics, of which he's like, I want to get off of
• 16:47
  this as quickly as possible. And just the research and the
• 16:50
  studies they've been doing and, and just talking and the way
• 16:53
  that they talked about pain, there was no judgment.
• 16:56
  It wasn't like he kind of experienced a bit of that at
• 16:58
  some point where it was like, oh, you shouldn't be having this
• 17:02
  much pain. And he's like, well, I don't
• 17:04
  want to be having this much pain.
• 17:07
  But then these people came in. And so anyways, I just, when I
• 17:10
  heard you tell me that the first time, I was like, wow, I just
• 17:12
  have such a respect through this line of work, not knowing
• 17:15
  anything about it, but having that one touchstone of like
• 17:18
  these angels that come in who are really there to help you
• 17:22
  manage your pain. And then in this case, it was
• 17:23
  also help you get off of the pain meds in a really safe way
• 17:27
  so that we don't have this fueling of the opioid crisis.
• 17:31
  Like it's a whole, it's a whole thing, I know.
• 17:34
  But anyways, thank you for the work that you do, not even
• 17:37
  really knowing what your day-to-day involves, but it's
• 17:39
  really, it's really beautiful work because there are so many
• 17:43
  people who suffer and that I'm sure you've now been aware of.
• 17:49
  So tell me about this world. Like what was it like to step
• 17:51
  into something totally different from how you started your
• 17:55
  career? Right.
• 17:56
  And I think you nailed it in terms of we always say in the
• 18:00
  industry the best people work in pain, which kind of crazy, but
• 18:06
  it is true. I think it just attracts a
• 18:09
  certain type of practitioner to to be able to really sit with
• 18:14
  the discomfort and like bear witness to the difficulty and
• 18:19
  hold hope and compassion through through those journeys with our
• 18:25
  patients. So it wound up being an
• 18:29
  incredible experience joining the the Fraser Health Pain
• 18:33
  Program and I just absolutely fell in love with it was really
• 18:37
  neat as well that it was brand new.
• 18:40
  And so I got to really help build up the program.
• 18:46
  Look at, you know, what are the evidence informs things that we
• 18:50
  want to teach our patients about.
• 18:53
  And I was able to pull in some of the things that I had learned
• 18:57
  from home health and being an educator in home health, linking
• 19:02
  some of those concepts and applying it to a new patient
• 19:06
  population, basically. Yeah.
• 19:09
  Yeah. And I absolutely loved working
• 19:13
  kind of one to one with patients.
• 19:15
  I was the registered nurse. We're on a team,
• 19:19
  interdisciplinary team with an occupational therapist, physical
• 19:22
  therapist, and we do like an 8 weeks program teaching people
• 19:28
  about this idea of biopsychosocial model of pain.
• 19:33
  So what are all of the things that start to go awry in our
• 19:37
  life when we have a lot of pain and that when those areas of our
• 19:41
  life are not doing well, they make the pain worse?
• 19:45
  What are some of those areas? I'm so curious as like
• 19:48
  especially this population who might have had acute situations
• 19:51
  postpartum or or even years after postpartum and there's
• 19:56
  there's stuff that people really can deal with for a long time.
• 20:00
  What are some of those factors that really play into this maybe
• 20:03
  cyclone of pain, if you will? Yeah, exactly that complex pain
• 20:07
  like you mentioned, right? It will be a lot of stress and
• 20:13
  uncertainty and definitely trauma, even medical trauma or,
• 20:19
  you know, previous experiences in our life that have put our
• 20:22
  nervous system just in the more hypervigilant state intention.
• 20:28
  There's changes in sleep and how we're able to communicate how
• 20:35
  we're able to function doing the things that are like really
• 20:39
  meaningful and uplifting are not as accessible when we're in
• 20:42
  pain. And then that also losing those
• 20:46
  things and and coping with the unwanted loss and change such an
• 20:49
  emotional process. So there's a lot of things this
• 20:54
  is, it's an 8 week program. And finally, well, interestingly
• 21:01
  enough, I actually grew up with chronic autoimmune conditions
• 21:06
  and chronic pain since childhood, migraines since I was
• 21:10
  a younger child. And I remember doing my first
• 21:14
  intake as a nurse for the pain clinic and asking a patient, you
• 21:18
  know, what was your pain like in childhood?
• 21:21
  And they were saying, Oh no, I've never had pain until this
• 21:24
  accident. What?
• 21:27
  You know, I always thought, like, we all have pain all the
• 21:29
  time. And so then I went on my own
• 21:31
  journey of like, what are some of these things I can apply to
• 21:35
  myself? Um, I haven't had a migraine
• 21:40
  actually in years. Tell us, how did you work
• 21:44
  through? I mean, if you wanna tell us the
• 21:46
  story of your autoimmune, I think that's also really
• 21:49
  poignant for a lot of people who you and I were saying before,
• 21:52
  like everyone's got their shit. And it doesn't make like, you
• 21:56
  probably work with people who are more complex than you or
• 21:58
  maybe less complex than you. And still, it's like, it's
• 22:01
  important to honor where you're at.
• 22:03
  So in your journey, what, what was that autoimmune experience
• 22:06
  like dealing with pain through since childhood?
• 22:09
  That's unbelievable. Like how have you navigated
• 22:11
  this? Yeah, it was, it was, it was a
• 22:14
  lot of factors and, and different conditions and some
• 22:17
  are quite rare. And you know, I, it took me, I
• 22:22
  think like my third or fourth time being in hospital or
• 22:27
  autoimmune flare up before I really put two and two together
• 22:31
  in terms of stress being a cause of increased pain, increased
• 22:38
  autoimmune symptoms. Um, because I didn't feel
• 22:42
  emotionally stressed. I was trusting like I'm doing,
• 22:47
  I'm doing all these things. I got a new job and now I'm a
• 22:50
  mom and now I'm moving or whatever it is, you know?
• 22:53
  And it didn't emotionally feel stressful or overwhelming or
• 22:58
  upsetting. And it took me a while to learn.
• 23:01
  Like, no, my body is talking to me and telling me like, this is
• 23:05
  not going to work. This is not sustainable.
• 23:10
  You know, I'm not, I'm not taking care of myself.
• 23:12
  So I was like, I think I was saying this to you earlier.
• 23:14
  It's like my passion was like getting carried away.
• 23:17
  It was like turning into Hulk and just like dragging me around
• 23:21
  and and my body was had something to say about that.
• 23:25
  That's so interesting you said, because I've definitely heard
• 23:28
  people talk about how your body doesn't, and you could speak
• 23:31
  more eloquently on this. I'd love your take how the body
• 23:34
  doesn't necessarily differentiate between excitement
• 23:39
  and stress. And those are more of the, like,
• 23:42
  psychological sides of it or the emotional sides of it.
• 23:45
  But then there's also your body in stress.
• 23:46
  So if there's something from an autoimmune perspective that your
• 23:49
  body is kind of fighting itself, it gives you a little clues.
• 23:52
  But you're like, yeah, but like, I'm not stressed.
• 23:54
  But maybe your body in that in that phase was like, no, no, but
• 23:57
  I'm physically stressed. Like the body isn't stressed.
• 24:00
  Is that what you mean? Yeah, exactly, exactly.
• 24:03
  It's like you're not eating enough, you're not sleeping
• 24:06
  enough, You're not, you know, at a pace that's going to be
• 24:09
  sustainable and, and the cascade of hormone changes, muscle
• 24:17
  tension that happens, like you said, whether it's good stress
• 24:21
  or, or not. And, and for a lot of folks too,
• 24:25
  you know, there's a certain pace that we might get used to,
• 24:31
  especially in kind of some difficult society norms where,
• 24:37
  you know, hustle culture or whatever is seen as good that
• 24:43
  doesn't actually land well for our bodies and our physical
• 24:47
  needs. And, and I think that was kind
• 24:50
  of one of the contributing factors is like that just felt
• 24:53
  normal for me to be, you know, self sacrificing, being
• 24:57
  perfectionistic, putting a lot of pressure on myself for
• 25:00
  achievement and doing everything for everybody and putting myself
• 25:04
  last and, and all of that it, it would catch up with me.
• 25:08
  Yeah. And it would land you in the
• 25:10
  hospital. So what was happening for you?
• 25:11
  What was happening in your body that was kind of causing it to
• 25:14
  be like, oh, I'm in, I'm in trouble here and and would cause
• 25:18
  you to go to the. Hospital, yeah, I would need
• 25:20
  like HIV medication, so just the normal medication.
• 25:23
  So wouldn't be working over the counter stuff, yeah.
• 25:26
  Oh my gosh. And this is for migraine,
• 25:28
  specifically for. Autoimmune.
• 25:31
  Oh, OK. Yeah, but I mean, same with
• 25:34
  headaches. Absolutely.
• 25:35
  Same with migraines. And I have like some joint pain
• 25:40
  and that kind of thing. And it took awhile for me to
• 25:44
  accept that, you know, I can't run at that pace all the time.
• 25:50
  How do you how do you accept that how and with those you work
• 25:54
  with or those who are listening who have something that they're
• 25:58
  dealing with IBS, stomach, gut, headaches, migraines, hormone
• 26:02
  craziness. How does 1 reconcile that this
• 26:05
  is just maybe this is my natural disposition and learn to work
• 26:10
  with it versus getting angry? Like I really do resonate with
• 26:13
  this topic, right, because there's stuff that I deal with,
• 26:16
  like I deal with really bad migraines once or twice a month
• 26:19
  and a ton of takes me out and I'm maybe that's why we had had
• 26:23
  to reschedule. Like I can't even keep track
• 26:25
  because I'm having to reschedule things all the time and it
• 26:28
  really pisses me off. I'm going to be honest, it
• 26:31
  pisses me off. It makes me annoyed.
• 26:34
  I look at Susie across the street and like she doesn't get
• 26:36
  this how you know? And in my small self, sometimes
• 26:39
  I'm like, how unfair. And I know Susie's got her own
• 26:42
  shit going on, but I find that I find it hard to be forced to
• 26:47
  slow down. So how for you did you learn?
• 26:50
  It sounds like you've really like found this marriage.
• 26:53
  And I know you use the word self management.
• 26:55
  Like how on earth have you reconciled just what is for you?
• 27:01
  Yeah, um, it's a powerful question and it's a work in
• 27:05
  progress. It's not a destination.
• 27:08
  Yeah, I sometimes call it going to couples therapy with your
• 27:11
  body. And it's like us, like your body
• 27:13
  wants to talk to you in a certain way.
• 27:15
  You wanna? You have your own agenda?
• 27:17
  Such a bitch sometimes. Like but I can't divorce my
• 27:21
  body. Like what the heck do I do
• 27:23
  right? So learning how to like listen
• 27:28
  and and find a compromise, really that reaction to the
• 27:36
  sensations is was a key for me. I didn't even realize the things
• 27:40
  that I was saying in terms of like, you know, I can't handle
• 27:44
  this. This is overwhelming.
• 27:46
  This is unfair. This is killing me.
• 27:49
  Like some of that self talk was just amping up my nervous
• 27:54
  system. That was just the cell talk was
• 27:57
  adding fuel to the fire and away, you know, and making the
• 28:02
  nervous system and the muscle tension, all of those things
• 28:07
  generate more intensity in that experience.
• 28:12
  How much do you think having the right people around you like
• 28:15
  care team? How much do you think that that
• 28:17
  plays into it? And I say that because I Oh my
• 28:21
  gosh, this is so poignant. I'm coming off of having this
• 28:25
  peritonsillar. I'm such an open book.
• 28:27
  I have this Abscess that sometimes grows in my throat.
• 28:30
  I don't have tonsils. It's called a peritonsillar
• 28:32
  Abscess. However, there are no tonsils.
• 28:34
  It is the weirdest thing. This is happened the first time
• 28:37
  at one of my best friends weddings and my throats are like
• 28:41
  season and swell. And this is like the sixth time
• 28:44
  it's happened in the past 10 years.
• 28:46
  Anyways, I'm on antibiotics right now I and I was just
• 28:51
  talking to my naturopath about it who I consider as part of my
• 28:54
  care team. I love my family doctor.
• 28:56
  I was unable to see her so I'm going to other providers.
• 28:59
  Had to go into the ER one night because my throat was like
• 29:03
  swelling blah, blah, blah. I shouldn't say blah, blah blah.
• 29:06
  It it's my story. However, I'm, I, I say this
• 29:09
  because when I was talking to my naturopath today, I said I was
• 29:12
  such a breath of fresh air because she really listened and
• 29:15
  she said that I'm sorry you went through that.
• 29:18
  That is so frustrating. It's frustrating that you knew
• 29:21
  exactly what you needed. I know I need to go on a couple
• 29:24
  days of steroids. Yuck.
• 29:25
  Have to go on a couple days like, you know, a week or 10
• 29:28
  days of amoxicillin. Not something I want to do every
• 29:30
  day. However, I know that's what gets
• 29:33
  it out. Like just I know the the course
• 29:35
  of action and I found it so frustrating to be going to all
• 29:40
  these practitioners who were like, it's viral.
• 29:42
  It's viral. You just have a sore throat.
• 29:43
  And I'm like, this is the sixth time this has happened and my
• 29:47
  throat is swelling. Like I know.
• 29:50
  So all that to say, I'm like feeling fired up because of the
• 29:53
  fact that I felt like I didn't have the right people.
• 29:58
  I don't quite yet have like the right course of action when this
• 30:00
  happens. So when you see people in
• 30:02
  chronic pain or even for your own situation, like how much do
• 30:05
  you think even just by virtue of having someone that is really
• 30:09
  truly listening to you, how much do you think that plays into
• 30:13
  that, like quieting that self talk and like really being able
• 30:17
  to thrive? Absolutely.
• 30:19
  So, so massive. In fact, we even talked about it
• 30:22
  in our week 1, like on pain science.
• 30:28
  Just like you're saying, there are things that I can do for
• 30:30
  myself to respond to my sensations or changing physical
• 30:36
  symptoms, but I'm in a system, I'm in the culture, I'm in a
• 30:43
  community. 8 and sodium impacted by all of that as well.
• 30:48
  And and like you said, the ability to access care will have
• 30:55
  a huge impact on how safe our body feels and the ability to
• 31:01
  have a provider that we trust, that they can take care of us
• 31:05
  when we need, that they validate we're explaining in our
• 31:11
  experience and that they are able to trust us too.
• 31:14
  A lot of folks with chronic conditions don't feel like
• 31:19
  trusted by the healthcare system.
• 31:23
  Because they might be like, I'm not a pill pusher.
• 31:26
  That's what I was actually saying to one of the five people
• 31:29
  I spoke to last or this couple days ago.
• 31:31
  I was like, I don't want to go on the steroid.
• 31:35
  I don't want to go on the amoxicillin.
• 31:36
  Like it's not my, but I'm going to this stuff.
• 31:40
  Like without these medications, people die.
• 31:43
  Yeah, for different reasons, right.
• 31:45
  Like that's like so dramatic. But I was like, this isn't me
• 31:48
  asking for something because I'm like addicted to pills or like,
• 31:52
  this is a very, I don't know. It's, it's so, so I totally hear
• 31:57
  that we're like, especially people in pain.
• 32:00
  That's got to be kind of a weird slippery slope.
• 32:02
  These people are like, I don't want to be reliant on these
• 32:05
  medications, I imagine. Yet here I am asking for more or
• 32:10
  something different because like, it's just not cutting it.
• 32:12
  Like, how do you, Oh my God, how do you navigate?
• 32:15
  How do you all navigate that? Really supporting those people
• 32:20
  and finding that balance. Right.
• 32:22
  And because it becomes a double edged sword.
• 32:25
  Where sometimes people are also not taking any medication when
• 32:31
  they should, like they need medication, but they, they're
• 32:34
  worried that if they take medication, maybe some people
• 32:38
  might think that they're just exaggerating to get the
• 32:43
  prescription. And so, yeah, there's, there's
• 32:48
  kind of a lot of learning still to do in, in our care or a lot
• 32:55
  of these conditions where there's no biological marker,
• 32:59
  you know, I cannot put them through a test and say, oh, you
• 33:02
  know what, we found that you have 7 out of 10 back pain.
• 33:06
  You know, we just have to rely on what folks are are describing
• 33:12
  and finding the different elements that help.
• 33:17
  So medication is one part of it and another part would be the
• 33:24
  late physical therapy or, you know, different care providers
• 33:29
  who can do things to us, massage, acupuncture.
• 33:34
  Um, but there's still that piece that I love to, to spread
• 33:39
  awareness to just because of how much it impacted me of what can
• 33:43
  we do for our own self as well? Because that, that feels so much
• 33:48
  more empowering to know that we're not just at the mercy of
• 33:52
  the healthcare system. We are.
• 33:54
  And we also have things within our circle of control as the
• 34:00
  personal lived experience that we can do to respond to our
• 34:03
  bodies with more support or practices that are going to
• 34:11
  really help tone down that stress and anxiety and and
• 34:16
  emotional overwhelm. What are some of those?
• 34:19
  What are some of those small self management pieces that
• 34:22
  somebody could could take on or try on when they're, I don't
• 34:26
  know why I keep thinking like a pain vortex, but it does feel
• 34:29
  like sometimes if anyone's in pain, you're trying to catch
• 34:31
  your tail is what I'm picturing. Like when I'm on, I have a
• 34:33
  migraine, you're I just feel like I'm trying to catch it,
• 34:36
  catch the pain. If I didn't take my meds, you
• 34:39
  know, Tylenol, Advil, whatever, early enough.
• 34:41
  So, and sometimes what I found is like relating this feel like
• 34:45
  I'm like getting my own coaching session here, but I just it's so
• 34:48
  relatable. I feel like everything, like you
• 34:52
  said earlier, goes out the window.
• 34:53
  Like I really can't eat. Like I feel zero hunger.
• 34:57
  I don't really wanna go out and go for a workout.
• 35:00
  Like what are what are like those, you know, some ideas
• 35:03
  around like those small steps so that like you're not continuing
• 35:06
  to say if nothing changes, nothing changes and you're just
• 35:09
  in this spiral of doom. Absolutely.
• 35:13
  So I think of it in terms of like preventative and then flare
• 35:19
  up management. So preventative practices that I
• 35:24
  found helpful in that the people that I've worked with have found
• 35:26
  helpful is having that relationship with your body, but
• 35:30
  being able to listen to sensations and experiences early
• 35:35
  on, right before I would just like not eat for a long time.
• 35:40
  And now I can tune into the hunger cues earlier on.
• 35:44
  So the body will start to scream at you if you don't listen to it
• 35:48
  when it's just talking to you at a normal pace and it's just
• 35:51
  going to turn up the volume. So getting reconnected to
• 35:55
  noticing my my needs. I was really good at noticing
• 35:59
  everyone else's needs. Um, and, and for me, I've done
• 36:04
  that through and we do teach in the program mindfulness and so
• 36:09
  just also what we call relaxation training.
• 36:13
  So doing deep breathing, journaling, and maybe some
• 36:19
  gentle movement activity like yoga or Pilates or running,
• 36:23
  anything that it's like I'm noticing my body cool.
• 36:27
  So those are the prevention pieces because sometimes those
• 36:30
  are not as accessible when you're in the flare up.
• 36:32
  I love that. Yeah, the word flare up is
• 36:34
  really. That's a good word.
• 36:36
  That's a. Good word, yes.
• 36:37
  And so there's things that I can do to just keep my body kind of
• 36:41
  in in a good state. And then the, the strategies
• 36:46
  that we can even writing down, we, we recommend that in our
• 36:50
  program a flare up plan in terms of what are some early
• 36:54
  indications I might be getting a flare up.
• 36:57
  You know, for me, I would feel more achy at night and I would
• 37:00
  need extra pillows or I just couldn't get comfortable.
• 37:03
  As in like an early sign that flare up might be coming.
• 37:07
  So what are your early signs of flare up might be coming on and
• 37:11
  what are some potential triggers for your flare ups?
• 37:15
  You know, oh, I know I may get a flare up when I'm stressed or
• 37:18
  when I not slept well because my baby's been up all night or
• 37:23
  whatever. Knowing your personal triggers
• 37:26
  so that you can kind of made a mitigation plan and say, you
• 37:31
  know, I'm not a risk for a flare up.
• 37:32
  So I'm going to really slow down today or I'm going to do more
• 37:36
  and calming activities and, and, and then a lot of practice in
• 37:43
  self compassion is also really helpful because just like you
• 37:47
  said, a huge component of these experiences is our emotional
• 37:52
  reaction to them. And we're human.
• 37:54
  We're going to have all the emotional reactions available to
• 37:57
  humans, But that's like being pissed off or upset or you know,
• 38:02
  the unfairness might land heavy. So being able to process those
• 38:07
  emotions, not just process the physical stuff, but also the
• 38:11
  emotions that are happening during a flare up.
• 38:14
  So you're not just raging at everyone around you.
• 38:18
  Really. Husband yeah, I love that.
• 38:21
  And I feel like every expert that I have on this show,
• 38:25
  without saying the exact words, it always seems to come back to
• 38:28
  like, you need to have a like a menu for yourself.
• 38:32
  Like I've had people come on to talk about all sorts of things
• 38:35
  like, you know, what are your interests, what are your
• 38:37
  passions talking about food prep for parents, like everything.
• 38:41
  And it's it really does come back to like as a busy parent
• 38:45
  who knows that this might happen.
• 38:47
  Hopefully you can you can be like you would not have a
• 38:50
  migraine for a couple of years or flare ups, but what is what
• 38:53
  do you know works? And sometimes you're when you're
• 38:55
  in the thick of it, Oh my gosh, it's so hard to even know what,
• 39:00
  what's on your menu to even just like have access like, you know,
• 39:03
  if like chicken soup could just be in the freezer or like this
• 39:07
  could be a conversation with your partner to be like, Hey,
• 39:10
  when this happens, we can just let's just do DoorDash.
• 39:12
  Let's not add stresses to the evening.
• 39:15
  And just like how can we keep everything as simple as possible
• 39:18
  or like just getting a massage. Like for me, actually going to
• 39:21
  get like a head and neck massage can really help.
• 39:23
  But I wait 3-4 days into a migraine to do it and it's like,
• 39:29
  because I'd, I forget or I'd just get wrapped up in it or
• 39:32
  whatever. So I think that's, yeah, that's
• 39:34
  what kind of what I'm hearing is like just almost ever
• 39:36
  remembering. Yeah, and and that's like 100%
• 39:40
  so common. That's why we purposely make
• 39:45
  flare up plants in our pain clinic with patients who are
• 39:48
  going through the program is when we're in pain or when
• 39:52
  we're, you know, in a flare up of some kind of condition, we'll
• 39:55
  tend to go to autopilot. Our body and our brain has said,
• 40:01
  you know what, when you did XYZ last time you survived.
• 40:04
  Doesn't really care if you were comfortable, but you did live
• 40:08
  through it. And so like childbirth.
• 40:11
  Yeah, exactly. However worked, so just do it.
• 40:15
  We'll do it again. Yeah, like, you know, we'll just
• 40:18
  ignore it for three days and, you know, be cranky or whatever.
• 40:21
  And that worked and, and, and they would just kind of tend to
• 40:24
  do it again. And that's normal.
• 40:26
  That's just how our brain works. But when we have a plan written
• 40:30
  down that we can pull up and kind of override our autopilot,
• 40:35
  and then a really nice thing about a plan, you know, I have a
• 40:39
  lot of patients even who put stuff in a box like a Flare U
• 40:43
  box. But there's like a favorite
• 40:45
  treat, some pictures, some affirmation cards, some good
• 40:49
  massagers, playlists, whatever. Um, and then you get some
• 40:57
  consistency, you know, OK, at least I know when I have a flare
• 41:01
  up, plan a flare up, I can go and get all my things I need in
• 41:06
  this box. Um, and the more that we do it,
• 41:10
  our brains are predicting machines as well.
• 41:13
  And so they like, Oh yeah, that worked last time.
• 41:17
  And and it'll just kind of start to get onto a new autopilot path
• 41:21
  I guess. This is absolutely fascinating.
• 41:24
  I hope anybody listening who has someone in their life who is
• 41:29
  experiencing pain or anything in the chronic realm, like please
• 41:33
  send this episode to them. I'm just, I'm so in awe of the
• 41:37
  work that you do and just these small, I don't know, these feel
• 41:40
  like really micro takeaways, but in a really big way, like real
• 41:44
  micro habits, things to think about.
• 41:46
  I also just feel like you're really normalizing that people
• 41:49
  have stuff that happens like and and that's OK.
• 41:52
  Now I would be remiss if we didn't pivot to talk about
• 41:56
  you're parallel path journey as a mother living on an acreage
• 42:02
  now and being a holistic nurse. Can you tell us that part of the
• 42:06
  story because how inspiring that you have this also alter ego.
• 42:11
  Yes, yeah, exactly. So, um, I, I was loving it in
• 42:18
  the position as a nurse for the Fraser Health pain program and
• 42:23
  feeling pretty stable. Thought, you know what, I've
• 42:25
  been displaced twice in the last few years.
• 42:27
  Like I'm probably good now, right?
• 42:29
  And so we had an opportunity to kind of build a dream home and
• 42:36
  and move into this 5 acres property in Pitt Meadows.
• 42:43
  We took that and that was a whole journey.
• 42:46
  We lived in a trailer through the winter.
• 42:50
  And if anyone's watching, if you can see Julia, she doesn't quite
• 42:54
  look like a trailer gal. Yeah, well, I mean, it was a
• 43:00
  whole look and lots of animals and a lot of pivoting and
• 43:09
  unexpected things. You know, building a house is is
• 43:12
  pretty crazy as it is. But then it happened to be COVID
• 43:16
  hit. Right now, of course it did.
• 43:19
  Hmm. Yeah, so that.
• 43:21
  Was a flare ups flare up triggers.
• 43:24
  Exactly, this is where it was like all of those strategies
• 43:30
  that I had been learning and starting to practice in Fraser
• 43:35
  Health. I swear that is what saved me
• 43:38
  through that those couple of years journey.
• 43:42
  Um, and then we kind of moved into our house.
• 43:48
  We were feeling settled, lost my job again.
• 43:55
  Act so nuts I thought we were out.
• 43:57
  To be honest, I actually thought we were already at three.
• 44:00
  We hadn't even gotten. To this what's it like 3 or 4
• 44:03
  like it feels? Sick now, but I started off by
• 44:05
  facing sticks. Yeah, yeah.
• 44:10
  I. Did that happened again?
• 44:11
  Yes. And that just shook me again.
• 44:16
  Absolutely. And the kind of journey again
• 44:22
  that I took was to take an opportunity.
• 44:26
  I chose again not to displace back and I wound up with three
• 44:33
  casual jobs at the same time. So it went from working part
• 44:37
  time to full time, 3 jobs at three different pain clinics.
• 44:42
  So I helped roll out the program that we were doing at Fraser
• 44:46
  Health at two other clinics, including a Saint Paul's
• 44:49
  hospital, which is a far drive from Pitt Meadows.
• 44:53
  And a big hospital like that would have been a big program.
• 44:56
  Yeah, I, I, I actually created a program for them at Saint Paul's
• 45:01
  that was nurse led and they let it and I did that for a year.
• 45:07
  But it was a lot. I felt a lot of mom guilt to go
• 45:12
  from part time to full time and with my kids, kind of an early
• 45:16
  elementary school at that point. It was really unbelievable
• 45:22
  timing that my mom decided to move and she moved in with me
• 45:28
  temporarily. So for that time I had a lot of
• 45:32
  support with her for like meals and kids pick up and drop off.
• 45:38
  OK, Really leaned on a lot of people and I hadn't been one to
• 45:44
  necessarily want a lot of help before, right?
• 45:46
  Like independent only child. But um, I learned from all the
• 45:53
  things in the pain clinic and realized I cannot overdo it.
• 45:58
  Don't want to get a flare up from this third displacement.
• 46:01
  And I was able to really lean on the supports of my family and
• 46:07
  friends at that time and and doing yeah, 33 jobs.
• 46:11
  I was just trying to remember what clinic am I at?
• 46:16
  What am I doing? Each day on top of kids
• 46:19
  schedules too. That's no.
• 46:21
  Seeds and shoveling horse poop and gardening.
• 46:26
  Tell us about this farm. What are you doing on this farm?
• 46:29
  This is crazy so. Cool.
• 46:31
  Yeah, we have. Like right now we've got a few
• 46:34
  horses, very stubborn pony who I love dearly, a puppy cat fish.
• 46:42
  So really the neat thing about the horses is I've been working
• 46:48
  with a trainer on, it's called Natural Horsemanship.
• 46:54
  What it is is kind of interacting and training with
• 46:58
  the horses through body posture, body position, breathing,
• 47:05
  tension. And horses are almost like a
• 47:09
  little biofeedback tool where they can tell us how stressed or
• 47:14
  how tense we are because they're a herd animal.
• 47:18
  They and that they're a prey. They can't be loud in their
• 47:23
  communication with each other, right?
• 47:25
  Or they're going to attract their predators.
• 47:28
  And so they have developed like an incredible way of sensing
• 47:33
  each others energy and knowing like OK, you're safe, you're
• 47:38
  safe, we all feel safe, alright, We can graze.
• 47:41
  Oh, you know, the, the leader of our herd is feeling tense.
• 47:44
  Oh, we're all going to be tense and on alert.
• 47:47
  And this is something where we as people working with horses
• 47:54
  can start to use that to build that body awareness.
• 47:58
  And OK, if I'm going and trying to work with my horse and I'm
• 48:02
  tense and I'm stressed from what's happening in my life, my
• 48:05
  horse picks up on that and he's kind of like, well, don't trust
• 48:09
  you. You're kind of amped up and he's
• 48:12
  tense and, and so this natural horsemanship work has just been
• 48:18
  another extension of, of, you know, what we've been talking
• 48:23
  about in terms of noticing your body and how, how your nervous
• 48:28
  system is regulated or not. Yeah.
• 48:32
  And is this something that you hope to bring into practice with
• 48:35
  clients eventually? Because I know that that equine
• 48:37
  therapy or there's different things that there's ways of
• 48:40
  calling it. Is that something?
• 48:42
  Has this just have been training for you to learn about this, or
• 48:44
  is this something that you're learning to practice with
• 48:47
  others? Yeah, it's, again, it's like all
• 48:50
  these little skipping stones that have happened to me along
• 48:54
  the way. And at first I got this pony as
• 48:57
  a pet for my kids. We lost our dog then he was a
• 49:00
  little wild. And so I thought, oh, I got to
• 49:02
  bring a trainer in. She came in with this knowledge,
• 49:07
  and she had been, you know, working with, like, trauma
• 49:11
  survivors and doing horse therapy.
• 49:13
  And so she brought that style of training when she introduced it
• 49:18
  to me. Then I started learning about it
• 49:20
  from her and applying it to the work of the pain clinic, um, and
• 49:25
  then applying it for myself and now seeing that benefit for
• 49:30
  others. And so when I lost my job and I
• 49:34
  was doing those three casual positions, I also decided to go
• 49:39
  back and and to school to do this year long program through
• 49:47
  the kind Institute were a holistic nurse coaching
• 49:53
  consultant. So that I just finished um, in
• 49:59
  October of 2025. Congratulations.
• 50:03
  Yes, thank you. And so I'm starting to, to look
• 50:06
  at private practice, as you're saying, and like, what are some
• 50:10
  of the things that we can do to, to help our bodies on this
• 50:16
  journey? Because we're putting a lot of
• 50:18
  demand on our bodies in, in today's society.
• 50:21
  We are. Yeah.
• 50:23
  Holistic nurse. To me, that's an oxymoron.
• 50:27
  Tell me what that means. Yeah, So it really means, you
• 50:31
  know, we're not going to just look at it.
• 50:33
  Quick fix, you know, oh, migraine, take this prescription
• 50:37
  got me. We're going to look at the whole
• 50:39
  context, what is happening physically in your body, but
• 50:44
  also socially, emotionally, in your environment, in your
• 50:50
  beliefs, even spiritually in terms of, you know, how alive is
• 50:56
  that spark within you and are you living out the things that
• 51:00
  bring going to your life? So that's what we call the
• 51:03
  biopsychosocial spiritual. Model yes, and who who might
• 51:08
  access you or and get to, you know, really benefit.
• 51:11
  I know that it's always great to have somebody before shit hits
• 51:14
  the fan, but say there is somebody who's like really
• 51:18
  looking for someone to help with pain, chronic illness, whatever
• 51:22
  it is, is, who are you who could come work with you?
• 51:26
  Yeah. I mean, honestly, anybody I did,
• 51:30
  we had to do many pro bono clients.
• 51:34
  And so a lot of people come for things like, you know, feeling
• 51:40
  really stressed or overwhelmed at work, um, potentially
• 51:44
  starting to go towards feeling burned out.
• 51:49
  A lot of people with chronic pain, chronic conditions,
• 51:53
  autoimmune and people who are being difficulty with sleep and
• 51:57
  insomnia, People who are wanting some help in terms of studying
• 52:03
  new goals or kind of making a new trajectory in in their life.
• 52:08
  I did also some training in something called pain
• 52:11
  reprocessing therapy, um, which is incredible, like very well
• 52:17
  evidenced in the research and so impactful on the people that
• 52:22
  I've worked with that they, they tell me they have no pain
• 52:25
  anymore. No.
• 52:26
  What is it? Four years.
• 52:27
  No, no, tell Kate, tell us about this pain reprocessing was.
• 52:32
  Therapy. Therapy.
• 52:33
  Yeah, yes, it's incredible in terms of looking at this model A
• 52:40
  holistically, you know, the whole picture, the zoom out and
• 52:43
  look at the big picture of what's happening, what is your
• 52:46
  body trying to tell you. And decreasing our fear of the
• 52:54
  pain, increasing our sense of being able to handle it.
• 52:59
  Or that we are knowing the tools to overcome that experience.
• 53:08
  It's the training. It's really rewiring our brain
• 53:11
  to to respond differently to what's happening in the body.
• 53:16
  Why do you think it's so hard for us to buy it?
• 53:20
  To buy into it, and I say that lovingly because I do buy into
• 53:24
  it, but there's so many who maybe don't yet they've never
• 53:28
  had an experience. I did EMDR or sorry, tapping.
• 53:32
  No, I did some sort of reprocessing around trauma.
• 53:35
  Yeah, FT. EFT Thank you.
• 53:38
  Yeah, yeah. EFT And it, it was a certain
• 53:41
  situation that happened when my husband was in the hospital
• 53:44
  where things I saw him get there was a code that was called on
• 53:48
  him and I was right there and I couldn't get it out.
• 53:51
  It was like a T situation and I couldn't get out of my head and
• 53:56
  and I did that. And so I know that these weird
• 54:00
  magical things that we hear pain reprocessed, like it sounds
• 54:03
  crazy, but unless you experience something that is kind of
• 54:08
  otherworldly and then you see the outcome, like I don't think
• 54:11
  about it anymore. I know it happened and I know
• 54:14
  it's there. I can see it, but it doesn't sit
• 54:16
  with me anymore. Unbelievable.
• 54:18
  I wonder if that's kind of similar for maybe the pain
• 54:21
  reprocessing where you're like tapping into this like very
• 54:24
  deeper level of your brain that perhaps is not unlocked.
• 54:27
  Is that kind of how it goes? Yeah, exactly.
• 54:30
  And, and I think the hard part is some of these practices have
• 54:37
  been around since ancient times. Like it's not new.
• 54:41
  We put a new new name on. You know IC name.
• 54:45
  Yeah, and great that there's research and that's as a nurse,
• 54:51
  that's what brought me to the the practice was seeing the
• 54:55
  evidence on it. But then also experiencing it
• 55:02
  for myself and seeing it work for so many people.
• 55:07
  But it is practices that have been around for, you know, a
• 55:12
  very long time and a lot of like ancient, more culturally
• 55:17
  traditional care practices, right?
• 55:20
  It's and unfortunately, we've been in a medical system where
• 55:24
  they've really divided the body and the mind and the spirit.
• 55:29
  You know, you, you talk. And this is where holistic
• 55:32
  nurse, I think, is so unique because people don't want to
• 55:36
  talk to a therapist about their body or their pain or their
• 55:41
  chronic disease, but when they go to talk to the doctor, the
• 55:45
  doctor's just going to be really pinpointing on the body.
• 55:50
  And so I'm trying to help bridge that.
• 55:54
  We can work on all those levels at the same time.
• 55:58
  It's so, it is so unfortunate that this has happened and I'm
• 56:01
  so thankful for people like you who are really who have
• 56:04
  recognized that, recognize the need to bridge the gap or just
• 56:08
  bridge the people. Like, I can imagine you would be
• 56:10
  somebody who coming from a clinical background can say,
• 56:14
  yes, we need to abide by what your doctors.
• 56:17
  Let's work with your doctor and your medical plan.
• 56:20
  Let's work you have a a naturopath who can like help you
• 56:23
  with supplementation or like lifestyle things.
• 56:25
  What? Great, bring them in.
• 56:26
  Like let's all have open lines of communication.
• 56:29
  My GP is actually amazing. She's like, I don't mind if you
• 56:32
  work with a naturopath. She's like, yeah, is it my first
• 56:35
  choice? No, but don't hide anything from
• 56:38
  me, is what she. Said.
• 56:39
  And she said it in a very loving way, and I really appreciated
• 56:42
  that because it's true. In the past, I had this Doctor
• 56:45
  Who hated the fact that I had a natural path and that I took
• 56:49
  fish oil. Like we're not talking about
• 56:51
  anything. It wasn't anything crazy.
• 56:53
  And he was just such a he was kind of a jerk.
• 56:56
  And and this my doctor now she's like, just tell me like what
• 57:00
  you've got going on. I'm not really like, you know,
• 57:03
  she's like, yes, I agree with the vitamin D Fisher was great,
• 57:05
  but she's like some of these other, you know, supplements.
• 57:08
  I don't know about this kind of out of my realm, but I need to
• 57:11
  know about it. Yes.
• 57:12
  And that was nice to finally hear somebody say like, I'm
• 57:16
  willing to like have the connection be made and we don't
• 57:18
  have to. We're not all fighting against
• 57:20
  each other. So is that kind of in your work?
• 57:22
  I imagine that's how you're you're working as well.
• 57:25
  Exactly. And it's, you know, there's
• 57:28
  going to be people with ego, whatever their job is going to
• 57:31
  find them and sometimes they don't understand something.
• 57:35
  So that may trigger them to kind of get a little bit defensive
• 57:39
  or, or kind of that unhelpful bedside manner.
• 57:44
  But I think there's a lot of awareness growing in the fact
• 57:49
  that the healthcare system needs help and it's not perfect.
• 57:52
  So obviously the the more informed supportive care
• 58:00
  providers that can be there for our community, the better.
• 58:05
  And also the pain reprocessing therapy training that I went to
• 58:10
  is mostly being it's taught by doctors and it's mostly doctors
• 58:16
  that are training in it. Cool.
• 58:19
  Yeah, and I've, I've, I've been actually presenting this
• 58:23
  information at doctor medical conferences and, um, just trying
• 58:28
  to spread the word because it's nothing, you know, it's, it's,
• 58:32
  it's really a form of mindfulness meditation and, and
• 58:37
  my practice is coaching. It's like a health and Wellness
• 58:41
  coach. So it is all based on what is
• 58:45
  your intuition and what are your strengths and your priorities
• 58:51
  and then working together to find based on the research,
• 58:55
  based on you as an individual we can do to kind of support
• 59:00
  lasting change. It is so unbelievably, your
• 59:04
  story is so cool. And when we were chatting
• 59:07
  before, again, I know I had ask everybody, what is your thesis
• 59:11
  like? What would you want to shout
• 59:12
  from the rooftops? And you had the most interesting
• 59:15
  one that I've ever received, which was all you wrote was what
• 59:18
  can I learn from this? And I thought that was so cool.
• 59:22
  Can you tell us why you wrote that?
• 59:25
  Um, so my job now I wound up after that year of the three
• 59:32
  jobs, I, a vacancy came, I applied for it and was the
• 59:39
  successful applicant to be the regional clinical coordinator
• 59:43
  for the pain program that I had been the nurse of.
• 59:46
  And so now I'm the supervisor of that.
• 59:48
  Crazy. And yeah, it was an absolute
• 59:54
  rocking journey to to get to. And you know, each job I had, I
• 59:59
  thought, this is it, this is the best job ever.
• 1:00:02
  And, and now where I am, it just is such a blend of all of my
• 1:00:08
  passions and all of my skill sets and experiences that I get
• 1:00:14
  to now. Create and and give out on a
• 1:00:18
  bigger scale, you know, instead of just being one nurse to one
• 1:00:21
  patient and kind of on that wider level where sitting on
• 1:00:26
  different advisory committees and all these things.
• 1:00:29
  And I really looked at what you were saying on the thesis.
• 1:00:34
  There's this thing called pronoia.
• 1:00:37
  Have you heard of? That no.
• 1:00:39
  OK, so it's the opposite of paranoia.
• 1:00:43
  Paranoia is like, you know, thinking like everything's out
• 1:00:47
  to get you. And Pronoia is thinking like
• 1:00:51
  there's something in any situation that I can learn from
• 1:00:55
  or I can leverage and. The world is conspiring in my
• 1:01:01
  favor. Yes, even if it sucks, like even
• 1:01:04
  if I cry myself to sleep for like a week because of it.
• 1:01:08
  You know what? Is there something that I can
• 1:01:11
  learn or is there some tool or new skill that I can get out of
• 1:01:19
  these experiences? And I think of this analogy of
• 1:01:24
  like a spring, and, you know, it's like a spring.
• 1:01:28
  It can get depressed, pushed down on any.
• 1:01:32
  And you think like, oh, it's shrinking.
• 1:01:35
  But when there's that right angle and the pressure releases,
• 1:01:39
  the spring can spring back up or spring higher than it ever went,
• 1:01:43
  you know, without that force being put down on it.
• 1:01:47
  And so I kind of like to keep that in mind whenever I'm going
• 1:01:52
  through these difficult things in terms of how can I find the
• 1:01:57
  silver lining or get some, yeah, some learning out of these
• 1:02:03
  difficult experiences. God, that's so beautiful.
• 1:02:07
  And what a great metaphor for everything we've talked about
• 1:02:09
  today as well, in the whole what is my body whispering at me and
• 1:02:14
  how can I create that learning so that I can actually be a
• 1:02:17
  better version of myself? I feel like we get really stuck,
• 1:02:19
  especially when you have a chronic situation, you get
• 1:02:22
  really stuck in just like, oh, I just want this thing to go away.
• 1:02:25
  You never can imagine that like, Oh my goodness, maybe I could
• 1:02:27
  actually feel better than I ever have.
• 1:02:29
  We don't even like, look, when you're in pain, have a migraine,
• 1:02:32
  you're like, I would give anything.
• 1:02:34
  I'll never take always, you know, you have like a cold or
• 1:02:36
  flu migraine. You're like, I'll never take my
• 1:02:39
  health for granted again. And we just want to get back to
• 1:02:42
  baseline. But what I'm kind of hearing
• 1:02:43
  from what you're saying is that spring is like, how can we
• 1:02:45
  actually like bounce into like even greater abundance in life
• 1:02:49
  or whatever that looks like, which is such a beautiful
• 1:02:52
  metaphor. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:02:56
  Julia, where can everybody find you for OK, before we do that
• 1:03:01
  very quickly, we're we're way overtime.
• 1:03:02
  I know. Thank you for thanks for.
• 1:03:05
  Sticking with me talk all day about this.
• 1:03:07
  I could talk, this is so fascinating.
• 1:03:09
  If somebody, so we have listeners, United States, United
• 1:03:11
  Kingdom, Canada all over. If somebody is like, I feel like
• 1:03:16
  me or my mom or somebody I know could really use like specific
• 1:03:20
  pain support, how might they go about advocating for themselves
• 1:03:23
  to find, say, like a pain clinic?
• 1:03:26
  Hmm. So in Canada, we have in Canada
• 1:03:33
  is an incredible organization. Their website is like quite
• 1:03:37
  comprehensive. In BC specifically, we have Pain
• 1:03:42
  BC and they are an amazing, they're one of the biggest
• 1:03:45
  nonprofits for pain internationally.
• 1:03:48
  Even so we're really lucky to have them in BC and they have
• 1:03:53
  incredible supports and resources.
• 1:03:55
  And internationally, again, the UK and Australia both have
• 1:04:02
  incredible programs and we'll probably be even like checking
• 1:04:10
  in with a family doctor and and seeing what they recommend
• 1:04:14
  because there are so many pain clinics and programs that are
• 1:04:17
  popping up. Finally, I think it is getting
• 1:04:21
  the recognition. Yeah, because I think a lot of
• 1:04:24
  people might be struggling with something that's chronic, but
• 1:04:27
  they're followed by the person who they're followed maybe by
• 1:04:31
  the specialist that could be causing the pain versus working
• 1:04:36
  with somebody who is specialized in just pain in general, which I
• 1:04:40
  think is a huge difference and something I'm really taking away
• 1:04:43
  from this. Like, you know, you might be
• 1:04:45
  still followed by somebody in like the prenatal post Natal
• 1:04:49
  world. However, you don't have, they
• 1:04:52
  might be talking about like hormones or like, OK, the
• 1:04:55
  anatomy of like your vagina if whatever happened in birth, et
• 1:04:58
  cetera. However, you might have like a
• 1:05:00
  long lasting pain and they're doing the best they can.
• 1:05:04
  They're like everything looks fine, but you're like, but I'm
• 1:05:06
  still in pain. So this is like actually very
• 1:05:08
  eye opening for me. And I think listeners too that
• 1:05:10
  like this is a separate body and.
• 1:05:15
  Yeah, the pain system is like another, you know, you almost
• 1:05:20
  have like the different specialists for different
• 1:05:22
  organs, body systems. Pain is its own system and it
• 1:05:26
  really is so helpful to have providers that are
• 1:05:32
  knowledgeable. I mean, we talked about it on a
• 1:05:34
  kind of a broader scale, but we know all the way down to like
• 1:05:37
  what's happening in the glial cells at the action potentials,
• 1:05:42
  the synaptic Cliff that changes like it's real physiological
• 1:05:46
  chemical changes that happen. And to to be connected with a
• 1:05:52
  person who specializes specifically in pain, like
• 1:05:55
  you're saying, or in chronic diseases, I think it makes a
• 1:06:01
  world of a. Difference and we haven't barely
• 1:06:03
  didn't even talk about, you know, motherhood.
• 1:06:05
  We kind of it's implied, but like, yeah, this is like, you
• 1:06:09
  know, when you're really talking about that Maslow's hierarchy of
• 1:06:11
  needs. If you're in pain or you're
• 1:06:13
  dealing with something chronic, like that's foundational, that's
• 1:06:17
  like to even survive to get out of that vortex loop, you can't
• 1:06:20
  even talk about adding in creatine or weightlifting if you
• 1:06:24
  can't even like hardly get out of bed and parent your children
• 1:06:27
  and and just do day-to-day, you know, daily active living
• 1:06:31
  things. So that is like, I just feel
• 1:06:34
  like every parent listening would be like, oh crap, yeah,
• 1:06:38
  this is this is real. We should we should really take
• 1:06:40
  accountability for this. Where can everybody find you?
• 1:06:42
  Learn more about the work you're doing.
• 1:06:43
  Work with you as you holistic coach, nurse, coach.
• 1:06:48
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have a new website
• 1:06:51
  itssafespacehealing.ca and you can e-mail me at
• 1:06:56
  julia@safespacehealing.ca. I have not been on social media
• 1:07:03
  since like 2019, so I'm different on air.
• 1:07:08
  I'm gonna get I'm gonna get on there as well.
• 1:07:10
  But for now, I think, yeah, the website and e-mail, I'm checking
• 1:07:13
  that e-mail like constantly. Yay, congratulations.
• 1:07:16
  Thank you so much for sharing this story.
• 1:07:18
  I feel so inspired and I just feel so happy that this
• 1:07:21
  information is getting put out there.
• 1:07:24
  Like I just love learning about new modalities and these angels
• 1:07:27
  that are people like you who are doing this type of work.
• 1:07:29
  So thank you. Wonderful.
• 1:07:31
  Thank you so much for having me on.