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Kevin Rasdale - Understanding the Channel SE Role · Partnerships Unraveled

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Partnerships Unreveled, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries about channels and partnerships on a weekly basis.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Effe and I'm excited to introduce today's special guest, Kevin.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Kevin, how are you doing?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm doing well, Effie.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for having me on the podcast.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh great honor.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we're really going to dive into the role of the channel uh sales engineer in this podcast.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but before we start, Kevin, could you give us an introduction, tell us who you are, where you come from.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, certainly.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: So my name is Kevin Rasdale.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I live in Glasgow, Scotland.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've been a sales engineer now since about 2012.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I worked first of all at Dell, then uh in the Dell Software Group, then moved to StorageCraft, then I was at Partuoso.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um most recently I was working at Veronis as a sales engineer and uh technical account manager, and I am just about to start a new challenge, which you'll be able to see on my LinkedIn come the 2nd of February.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh really excited for the next steps in your career.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: I want to really start with um uh the role of the channel sales engineer role.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: You you you you said you've been doing it more than over a decade.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: You worked at companies such as Dell Varenus, you're joining a new company now.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think is the biggest mo biggest misconception about the channel sales engineering role?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I feel that more often than not, Effie, the channel sales engineer role is seen as a person that a company can rely on just to answer the complex questions.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um obviously with a standard sales engineering role, you're there to support an account team.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel that the work that a sales engineer performs with the account team on an internal route isn't really reflected or isn't understood necessarily by the channel as having that same level of support.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um whereas more often than not in my role as a sales engineer, it was I was being getting you know, I was having requests to train channel partners or to train new staff, and then really only approached when there was a complex scenario that they wanted a specific question answered.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: I feel that that is probably the biggest misconception is that the level of support that the channel can get from a sales engineer is the same level of support that an accounting team would expect from an internal or a field sales engineer that they have.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the problems is also that uh partners often don't realize how early they should bring a sales engineer into an opportunity.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: We've also talked about it before.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what do you think is the risk if the partners wait too long to get an get a sales engineer uh in a deal?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you think the vendors should be doing to create that awareness proactively?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think the the challenge, or not necessarily the challenge, but the risk of not bringing a sales engineer in early is the potential to misqualify.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, within a sales engineering role, technical qualification is one of the key components is being able to, you know, it doesn't matter if you're using the challenger methodology, they're using MedPIC, if they're using Command of the Message, it's ensuring that the product that the sales team wants to be able to sell or that the channel want to be able to sell is actually a technical fit.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that bringing a sales engineer in as early as Discovery Calls gives them that capability of, well, initially qualifying out, there's no point in burning sales cycles and burning time if it's not going to be able to technically suit the scenario that that end customer has.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um in terms of creating the awareness, I think uh it would be one of ensuring that the um channel marketing, not necessarily channel marketing, sorry, the channel account team are communicating it strongly with each uh new partner as they onboard.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I feel that you know the initial onboarding of any channel partner should include an introduction to the account team and to the sales engineering team to make them aware that you know when you have an opportunity, bring these people in, they can qualify it with you and they can, you know.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: As a channel sales engineer, I've I've always felt that my job is to help the channel make money.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if that means that I need to wear many different hats and put on you know my vendor's cap and then the hat of the partner, it's just to make sure that they've got that level of support.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And do you feel like maybe once you work with a partner, once the partner calls you, you know, asks for help, do you feel like the second time, third time they're also they realize that you know it's actually much better.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: We'll cut call Kevin earlier, we'll get him included in this uh in this customer.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like it's always that first call where they're kind of testing the waters, you know, trying to understand if they've called the right person.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um but with a sales engineer, it's a it's a hybrid role.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: You're as a the first word in sales engineer is sales.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as a sales engineer, you've got to help deliver revenue, be that and doing that with the channel is ensuring that when they pick up the phone and they phone you is that you're able to help them and assist.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And generally it starts to build a bit of friendship, a bit of partnership, and that way, as you say, when the second call, the third call, and so on, they make it it makes them a lot more confident that you know if they have challenges or if they have questions they need to ask, or if they're not sure if the product's the right fit, they know they're going to get sound advice and they call the channel sales engineer.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and what do you think what's your experience with working with different kinds of partners, uh like big box resellers versus MSPs?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I feel that the big box resellers um it's a lot more difficult to get um and it's not more it's not difficult.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: It they're not they don't often have particular expertise on a given product.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: They'll have perhaps teams that deal with a raft of products, you know, be it cybersecurity or backup and recovery, you know, they'll have multiple different vendors that they work with.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: So from the vendor side it can be more difficult to get time with them because they've got multiple different vendors.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and equally at that point I generally find that sometimes it's up to the it's up to the channel partner, it's up to the end user to tell them what they want, and effectively, you know, they fill the basket and the big box resellers will check out the basket and they'll send a PO.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas with the MSPs, I feel that generally they're a lot more um decisive in choosing which product they want to go with, and usually that also will include wraparound services.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Your big box sellers may have some wraparound services, but your MSP is really designed to be able to pull together the solutions that they've they've decided upon being a right fit for the company and for their end users, and then the services that you can wrap around, you know, understanding that they're getting their enterprise kit from you know vendor A, they're getting their networking from vendor B, and then their software vendors, and you know, they understand how that ecosystem fits together and that they can do that kind of wraparound service.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas not one to you know say anything negative about the big box sellers, resellers, they'll have multiple different vendors, so when somebody says, This is what I want, they'll be happy to sell it to them.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes you may not have that level of understanding of what product is the right fit.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think that difference makes sense considering the the more technical nature of the MSP.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: But then my question is also, do you feel like when you are working with an MSP, the nature of the job is a little bit more complicated?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't I wouldn't say it was more complicated, FEQ, to be completely honest with you.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: In my past, I've always found that working with the the MSPs, you have a kind of clear understanding of how they've defined their business role with each of their end users.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: So and at that point, you know, if you've been selected as the vendor of choice for that MSP, you get a deeper understanding of the end user, you get a deeper understanding of the business.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it kind of it doesn't replicate itself, you know, for each end customer.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's going to be different questions and different technical constraints within each end customer, but it gives you an understanding of specifically what that MSP is looking to achieve with their customers.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: I want to shift into a different topic.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I want to talk about, you know, in in we're seeing more vendors embedding SOC and MDR capabilities into their platforms.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how do you see that impacting the traditional MSP model?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's uh it's becoming more and more prevalent.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm seeing a lot of different vendors are starting to kind of add that SOC capability into their technology.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's definitely happening in the kind of secure networking space and in cybersecurity.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's gonna be interesting to see.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's might we might hit an inflection point where the MSPs might feel a little bit of pain.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now, obviously, your MSP um is going to be your technical help desk as well as you know the the vendor or the sorry the company that you're gonna be acquiring technology and software via.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: What we may see is there may start to see a drop-off in some of their um services potentially, because as I say, security is the big one at the moment where you know you've got um you've got network vendors that are offering SOC capabilities, you've got cybersecurity vendors that are offering an MDR type service.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think that what may well happen is that where the technology doesn't have that capability, you know, potentially on hardware and in some networking, that may well be where the MSPs end up focusing.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's gonna be an interesting, as you say, it's it's kind of a change in the market, um, and that these services are being seen as vital to certain components within the enterprise stack.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's gonna be one of those that we can need to watch this space and see what happens.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um there'll be there'll be certain vendors that don't do it, and MSPs may end up you know migrating towards the vendors that don't have that capability just to retain the value of the MSP relationship and the help desk and the support that they offer.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it reminds it reminds me of a conversation that I had just yesterday uh with uh a channel director at a cybersecurity company, and they they do offer SOC, but he was he was clear that we only offer it for some of the customers that want to do it uh you know with us.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: But ideally we also want uh the partner to do it as well, like we offer that capability, but it's better for uh you know everyone if the if the partner they're the experts at that.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like like when you say more vendors are offering it, do you feel like more vendors want to kind of take over that the this uh you know this market, or is it just like they offer it because there's some customers asking for it?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the what you're what I've definitely found is that it's being offered where large part of large customers are asking for it.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you've got you know flagship customers, you know, the the kind of largest deals that they close, if they start saying you've got all of the intelligence, you've got visibility, why aren't you offering that service?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's maybe where you'll start to see it.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: The big difference, I suppose, is that MSPs that offer a SOC have a managed SOC is not a cheap um investment for any end customer.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: But when I'm when I'm looking at the vendors that are offering those capabilities, they're taking people from companies like Mandian.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're taking absolute experts in these spaces um where you know a Mandian managed sock is a is not a cheap investment, but it's a very worthwhile investment.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you're gonna get that as a small uplift on the technology, then it may well mean that for the end users that's their preferred option.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: What I would hate to see is there are you know the the level of knowledge and understanding across the MSP space is absolutely phenomenal.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's people that could school me every single day of the week and they would probably forget more than I would learn about their business.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I would hate to see their professional expertise being eroded.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: The last thing I would hate I would like to see is for them to become triage only.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think it I think it's going to be a as I say, it'll be an inflection point within the MSP to decide whether that vendor is actually starting to erode the core functionality of the MSP or not.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess I guess you're going to see it's going to be it's it's it it's interesting to see the the the the shift in the industry.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I have a final last question for you, Kevin.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um about the about the role of the channel SE.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you could give one piece of advice to a new channel SE that's just starting out, what would it be?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: It would be ignore the work from home mentality that we all got into under the lockdown.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Get out there, go and meet your MSPs, go and meet your channel partners, shake hands, get into meeting rooms, understand the strategy.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Being face to face and establishing those relationships early will give you a kind of foundation for success, but don't just rely on video calls because you get a lot more from people when you can actually sit down and shake their hands.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we're all used to being a hundred percent professional, we're on our video calls, got our messy backgrounds blurred so nobody can see them.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's a much better experience if even if you know they don't have a meeting room, take them to a restaurant or take them to a bar, do something with them, start to build the relationships early, and you're guaranteed that you'll be able to succeed with your partners.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that answer.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm so glad that you said that.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's just a different experience, different energy, the way you get to meet per meet meet the people in person.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think also that you get a chance to you know dive much deeper into getting to know their business, getting to know them personally.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think building those connections, that's what one thing that I really love about the channel, about the channel, like going to these it wants the energy is really uh crazy.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm I'm really I'm really happy that you said it.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, Kevin, you know, um Olivia recommended you to join the podcast.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I want to continue the chain and ask you for uh for your recommendation for a future guest on the podcast.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Who do you think we should have next?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: So in terms of understanding you know people, not just professionally, but personally, the person that always astounded me with his knowledge is a gentleman by the name of Barry Hughes.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: He works for ArcServe and he is the MSP territory manager for Amya North.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um I used to work with him a while ago, and the capability, if I was at an event and people would walk up to me and seeing thousands of people over a couple of days, someone would be able to walk up to me and I would know that I know them.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: I know that I work with them.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: But if their name badge was switched the wrong way around, sometimes I was a little bit snookered.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas Barry had his capability of knowing who that person was from fifty yards away, and he would know about the business, he would know about what they were doing.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't know about his family holidays and things like that, I think he's uh an absolute leader in terms of uh uh territory manager in the channel.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think he would be uh a great guest for you to have on Partnership Unraveled.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Barry, if you're listening, I'll be uh reaching out to you soon.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Hope we can get you on the podcast.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And Kevin, thank you so much for your time for this great conversation, for your recommendation, and see you in the next episode.