Latest / Claymore: Become Who You Are / #514 "Flee From Heresy," with Bishop Athanasius Schneider; "We Are Living In Unprecedented Times"

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#514 "Flee From Heresy," with Bishop Athanasius Schneider; "We Are Living In Unprecedented Times" · Claymore: Become Who You Are

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I am so excited and grateful to have you.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Your Excellency Bishop Athanasius Schneider, welcome to the show.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: We're familiar with you already, with your work, and I would just start off by saying we really appreciate your voice, your clarity, your voice of reason, which we so desperately need.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: So thank you for that, and we'd like to know, maybe just to start off, how are you holding up?
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Are you doing okay?
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: And we hope your health, of course, is well and that you're feeling well yourself.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Thank you for your invitation.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: With God's grace, I am well and protected by God.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Grace, I am well and protected by God when we have God in our heart we have all and nothing is lacking to us, yes, yes, you know, to many Catholics and non-Catholics across the world.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Bishop Schneider, so many people I know today have been awakened, you know, perhaps more in our lifetime than ever before, to the sin and evil that seems to be pressing in on us, of course accelerating throughout the world and even within our beloved church and even here in the United States.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: You know, we seem to be faced with a culture and a nation unfortunately in crisis and decline itself and catching up maybe with Western civilization as a whole.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: You know, in Europe Bishop Fulton Sheen would talk about this already that Christendom, you know, that is already dying.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Not the church, he would say, you know, not the church, not God's work within the church, but just Christ in our culture, in our art, in our nation.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: You know, and so we really appreciate you and we appreciate the work that you're doing.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: We're looking for answers, of course, you know, and we're looking to our church in this time of crisis, and then we find so many voices that say she's already lost her way right, and actually maybe even teaching heresy.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: And so you address this in your latest book, lee from Heresy.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: The church has fought against heresies, as you show throughout history.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: So we're wondering, kind of to start off is the crisis of your excellency that we're facing today, is it worse than any other time?
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Because I've read your book, I see you know it's beautiful.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: I've read your other works on the mass with Aurelio Porferi, who I've had on the show, and he speaks, of course, so highly of you, christus Vincent.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: It's just another great book, and so you seem to really have a grasp on history.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Is this worse?
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Do you think this is worse, this crisis in the world and in the church, than we've experienced before?
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: I'm convinced that the current crisis of the church is unprecedented.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Because the crisis is revealing itself as touching the real foundations of our Christian faith.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Because in other times there were crisesinal crisis heresies which were addressing a specific issue, topic.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Let us say the aryan crisis in the fourth century.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: It was maybe, after this one, the greatest, biggest crisis, because it was attacking and denying the central truth that Jesus Christ is true God, really true God.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, this was denied, but they were addressing only this topic on the divinity of Jesus Christ.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Now, in our time, they are attacking all the truth at any level, all, and the truth itself.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: The principle of truth, which means this is the relativism, is the relativism.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: The fundamental error of relativism says that there is no unchanging truth at all.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: And so, when there is no unchanging truth, we are completely lost in air, without any foundations.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: And this is the most dangerous attack on Christian faith within the church.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Because they say this is the modernist theory, the modernism which was heresy in the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century within the Catholic Church and which was condemned very clearly and concretely by Pope Pius X.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: And exactly this heresy, one of the main theories.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Main theories were that the truth is changing.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: It depends on historical circumstances.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: So what was true, let us say, 100 years ago or 500 years, can be today the contrary.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: This was the fundamental error of modernism, which was, of course, they took it from the modern philosophy, from Kant and specifically from Hegel, which was who was promoting this dialectic philosophy, saying that there is a truth, the theory, the thesis, as Hegel said, and then after some time there comes a time where the contrary, the antithesis, is also true, and then after some time there comes a synthesis, and so on.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: There's a continuous evolution and this is so dangerous.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: And now we have this principle very much spread in the life of the church, in theological faculties all over the world, in seminaries, in liturgy, saying that it is all developing.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: So a concrete example the issue of homosexuality.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: They say now we can bless, even openly, homosexual couples or people who are living in a sinful union and we can admit them even to Holy Communion.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Even they continue in this sinful union as such.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: And they say today we have another time.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: They explain some bishops and priests, and this is a concrete example of applying this Hegelian modernist theory to the life of the church, to morality, to liturgy, to the discipline of the sacraments or now the promotion of so-called female ordination.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: They say now, in the past times, they were stated John Paul II and the entire tradition said we cannot ordain women.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: This is against the divine structure of the church.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: But they say now we have passed a new time, today we can do this, and they try to impose this, first with the diaconate, and then of course, with the presbyterate, and then of course with the diaconate, and then of course, with the presbyterate and then, of course, with the episcopate.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: This is all the same direction.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: We had already this applied in the Anglican Church, you see, and therefore I consider the current crisis really unprecedented because it's universal.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: It is attacking the very foundations of truth itself.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that was beautiful and heart-wrenching at the same time.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: You know, we start to see something.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: Your Excellency, in the culture, in the world elite, you know the deep we would say the deep state, and also the deep church, perhaps almost coming together in a way.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: This is the sense that we have.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: And so as I'm speaking, you know, as we're speaking with the John Paul II Renewal Center, we have these Catholic families, these young families.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: They're looking for a place to go right, to find exactly what the truth itself and the faith itself.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: And, you know, going to the traditional Latin mass or at least looking for a pastor, a priest that can bring light and help these families live out the faith.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: And, at the same time, we're trying to explain to people what's going on in the church today.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: And so, when you write about heresies, what would you say to these faithful Catholic families?
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: To these faithful Catholic families, we know that they're trying to find a good, solid parish right and prayer and get into prayer, but they also want to help others that are saying, you know, did the church lose her way?
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Because, exactly what you said, will I find the truth?
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Will I find the truth?
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: And then how can we explain that to others, that heresies have always been coming through through history, but this is something new.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: You know, when we see Pope Francis, you know, in the United States, you know, push aside bishops like Bishop Strickland, maybe even censor Cardinal Burke to a certain extent, others, and then invite as you mentioned, you know, with homosexuality and things the Biden administration and a bishop, or not bishop, but Father James Martin, to an audience, james Martin to an audience.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: It's very confusing to us, you know.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: So any advice to us, your Excellency on identifying these heresies, being able to explain them to ourselves first, and then some solutions and actions to this.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: I guess the one good thing we see is the weeds in the wheat are kind of showing, you know, kind of standing up, you know, and you can identify them, but it takes a lot of work and time and not all the families that I meet have all the time to do this.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I would encourage these families first to know well your Catholic faith.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is the basis.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, and study well the good old catechisms, let us say Baltimore Catechism, catechism of Pius X.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: These are crystal clear, short teachings of the perennial magisterium of the Church which are perennial, validly.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: So there is all the basic teaching of the Catholic faith.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Please study this ever more.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: And also the good and clear encyclicals of the popes, specifically those before the council, let us say the great encyclicals of Leo XIII's, pope Pius X, pius XII's.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: There are a lot of very clear encyclicals, also addressing the errors or the issues of modern time, but also some good texts of popes.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: After the Second Vatican Council, paul VI gave a splendid document which is called the Cradle of the People of God in 68.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: So this is a very sure profession of faith.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: You can take this also and study it.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: It's a shorter text for John Paul II.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: He's encyclical on the morality, on ethics and moral issues.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Veritatis Splendor.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Veritatis Splendor.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: You can also study some good texts.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Take these and study.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Would you include Bishop Schneider?
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Evangelium Vitae, Evangelium Vitae, Evangelium Vitae, of course also Evangelium Vitae is excellent against the culture of death and all human vitae, on the moral issue of the family life and marriage life.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: And then this is the first and then be prayerful, be faithful to prayers, personal in family, and then join other families to make maybe some formation sessions to deepen some issues and topics of our time, with good priests, with solid answers, apologetics.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: And then when you hear, as you mentioned, some confusion, confusion, re and confusion, all acts of bishops or the Pope, or documents, then you have simply pray for them that God may illuminate them, give them a light that they recognize the dangers and the harmful effects and consequences of their ambiguous statements or behavior.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So you have to pray first for them and ask the Lord to illuminate them or to do acts of reparation.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: This is the true answer of faithful yes yes, thank you.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm so glad you brought up some of the post-conciliar popes, because many people, some voices that I really respect and maybe I can ask you this will throw them under the bus kind of you know that, say you know any popes that came after.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: But I just I've seen too many families who have been able to take the vocabulary of John Paul II say, with this theology of the body, things like that, to really explain, you know, marriage, the family, understand the beauty of that sacrament, understand the tiny created reflection of Trinitarian love in the world, the sacraments of the Mass and the beauty of the bridegroom with the bride.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: I mean these are beautiful analogies and help us understand why, even from a priest standpoint, why the priest needs to be a man in persona Christi, and all of that comes out in this teaching.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: So thank you for that, because I respect some of the bishops and I understand what they say.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: You know they blame, of course, vatican II and then many of the popes afterwards, but even Pope Paul VI.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Look, these are not all perfect people, we know that, and they made errors, probably through time.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: But when you look at the heart of John Paul II and Pope Benedict, it's very hard for me to say that they didn't love the Church and Our Blessed Mother and the Rosary and the Eucharist and adoration, and so, thank you, because there are many questions about that.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Was Vatican II the cause of all this?
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: And sometimes I think, almost like COVID, your Excellency, unleashed this evil in the world, gave them a catalyst.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Sometimes and I like to see what you think about this sometimes I think Vatican II was the same.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean, there were some ambiguities there.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: You, you make that very clear in your books and your work, but you're also, um, you, you do it in a very uh, uh, uh, a beautiful way.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: You know, not always just attacking, attacking, attacking, but also allowing the beauty of some of those things to to come out.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Because, bishop Sheen, in the 40s, when I was a child I was born in the 50s, but already in the 40s he was talking about a lot of this coming up.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: But at the time I was a young boy, your Excellency, he had a great television show and he was talking about the crisis we're coming in already, and this was in the forties and the fifties.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: So you know, we know some of this undercurrent was there well before Vatican two.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: So I I'm sorry that's a long question, but uh, uh, it was, you know, because I think sometimes if we waste too much time on just looking for, uh, vatican two, uh, as the scapegoat of everything, of everything, sometimes we miss, I think we miss some of the other issues of evil in the world, you know.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I am agreeing with you and, of course, historically, seeing as you, I am agreeing with you that Vatican II was a catalyst for this modern, the modernism itself is these relativistic ideas.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, from the point of view of history, historical, it was a council which, globally spoken, did not bring um a good how do you say good for the church, but caused a movement of relativization, of minimalization, of adapting to the world and so on.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: This is evident, we cannot deny it, it's glowed at the whole, but nevertheless, it was an event within the Catholic Church.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: We cannot deny this and God permitted it for a greater good.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: I would even apply the method and principle of Archbishop Lefebvre, who once said his attitude to the Vatican Council was the following there are many statements which are 100% Catholic in the council and that we accept, a grateful set.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Then there are a second category statements which are ambiguous.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: It means it.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: They can be interpreted in, interpreted in different ways and regarding these ambiguous statements, archbishop lefèvre, is that we have to, we can interpret these statements in the light of the Catholic tradition, of the perennial tradition, if some statements are able to be interpreted in the true Catholic tradition, those statements who are evidently which are not so much, thanks be to God, not so many.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: They are obviously erroneous not directly heresies, but erroneous.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: So we have to distinguish Not directly heresies but erroneous.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: So we have to distinguish Not heretical but erroneous.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: They must be formulated in another way.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: For example, a simple statement which is simple, erroneous maybe an error.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Simple in the Gaudium et Spes there is a statement which says that the first and greatest commandment in the scripture is to love God and your neighbour.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: This is simply wrong, because in the scripture, our Lord said, in the gospel the first and greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, and so on.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: And then the second one, the second, which is similar to the first, is to love your neighbor as yourself.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: You see, yes, and the council put them both in on the same level.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is simply a error, because such statement you cannot find in in the entire holy scripture, that the first and greatest commandment is to love god and your, your neighbor.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: So such formulation is not in the in the scripture.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: So so this is a simple example for a simple error.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: It's not an error, it's an error.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: We have to correct this.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: And there are others.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: And so, as Dr Lefebvre said, these objectively, evidently, undeniably erroneous statements of the Second Vatican Council.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: We can correct them, improve them later, the Church, and there's no problem because these erroneous statements, they do not possess the quality of infallible teaching, no, and the Second Vatican Council did not have the intention to propose to the faithful infallible or definitive teachings their own.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: These are quoted now, the words of Pope Paul VI.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Pope Paul VI, one month after the conclusion of the council, publicly stated in a general audience, talk these words which are now quoted and therefore we cannot, and the errors of some even good conservative Catholics.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: They simply infallibilize the entire council, which is a simple error of fact and contradicts the public statement of Paul VI which I quoted.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: The council did not have the intention to speak infallibly and to propose or to propose a definitive teaching for the entire church because, says the Pope Paul VI, its intention and characteristic was pastoral.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: This is a fact.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: And therefore, if it's not definitive, if it's not infallible but only pastoral, of course also magisterial but not definitive, it can be improved later, it can be even changed.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: There is no problem.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: I don't see any problem with Catholic principles that are not infallible.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Teaching or are not definitive teaching can be later improved by the subsequent magisterium.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I would think all these Catholic families that I'm speaking about, and non-Catholic too, your Excellency that are looking for the truth and looking to do their best to protect their marriages and their families and to raise their children, they would have no problem with what you just said.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, they want the truth.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: We all know that unless we go to God first and love God first, we have nothing to give our neighbor anyways, right?
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: So it's always look.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: I've been married for over 40 years, your Excellency, and I know that if I don't go to him first, I don't have much to give my wife and vice versa.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: It's just the reality.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: And so for me to love my neighbor.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: So when these confusions come, would you say just quickly I don't want to take too much of your time on this but would you say that the worst, you know, the worst, maybe error, the worst thing to come out of Vatican II was the changes that went too far from Sacrosanctum Concilium?
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: When I read those documents, the constitutional documents of Vatican II, and say on the liturgy, they don't propose all the changes that came into the Novus Ordo Mass.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: And so our question would be to a lot of these young people who are trying to find a traditional Latin mass because they want to get to the roots.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: They sense something in their hearts.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: You know, and would you say that was the biggest issue that came out of Vatican II?
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Or the biggest problem that we have today is because you center, of course, so well on the Eucharist and on Christ Christocentric.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: This is our faith, and the Novus Ordo seemed to take some of that reverence away, et cetera, et cetera.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Is that the biggest problem that came out?
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: I'm always wondering.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: With Pope Paul VI, he allowed this big change.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: You know from the documents themselves.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: No, I do not consider this First.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: There is some confusion we have to clarify.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, thank you, the shape and the form as we have it now, it's not at all the Mass of Vatican II.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: No, there is nothing in the document Sacrosanctum Concilium speaking about celebration towards the people.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Nothing no.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Or taking out all the Latin right or the.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Gregorian chant.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: There is nothing to say that the Mass should be celebrated entirely in the vernacular language.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: The contrary.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: There are two numbers in Sacrosanctum Concilium which says that, first, that the vernacular language should be given some room, some extent, some not total first.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Then, secondly, the council says that the Latin language must be maintained in the Latin liturgy.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Must it's not, can, it's a must.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: And now today, when we go around the world, almost all Novus Ordo Masses are celebrated exclusively in the vernacular.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: It's directly against the norms of Vatican II, directly against yes and so.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: And then another norm says that the bishops are obliged to take care that the faithful know to pray in Latin the ordinarium of the Mass, that is to say Kyrie, gloria, credo Sanctus and Agnus Dei.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: It's an obligation for the bishops that they must take care that their faithful be able to pray these five prayers in Latin.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Yes yes, who is doing this today?
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Almost no bishop.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: So you see only an example.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Then there is no.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Nothing is said that to make new Eucharistic prayers, nothing.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: And there is a principle principle.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: There are some principles in the document.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: The first part are principles.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: The second part of the document are concrete, practical suggestions.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: But they have to depend on the principle.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: There is a principle which says, in number 23 sacrosanctum concilium says that there should not be innovations in under the condition that these innovations flow out organically from already existed forms of the liturgy.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: Secondly, that these innovations will surely bring a great benefit for the entire church.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: You see, yes.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: And then another historical fact which is not known so much is the.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: We had already a Vatican II Mass in 65, in the beginning of 65, still during the Council, there was made a reform of the Mass according to Sacrosanctum Concilium, which was very careful, very cautious.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: It was the entire Mass.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: Remained only that the Psalm 42 at the beginning of the Mass was dropped.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: But this was not a revolutionary innovation, because during the last time of Lent, before the Council, and during the requiem masses also, the Psalm 42 was never prayed.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: It's all omitted.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: So in some way it's not such a revolutionary innovation.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: And then the second one, that the last gospel was also omitted and the rest remained.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: All the crosses, all the ingenuflections, all remained intact.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: And even the true innovation was in 65 that the Holy Mass could be celebrated in vernacular language, in the first part of the mass until the preface and from the preface.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: In 65 vatican true mass was obliged to priest to pray the preface only in latin, only in latin and the entire canon in latin and in low voice, like in the Tridentine Mass, and until the Per Ipsum and from the Our Father until the end of the Mass, again in vernacular, but the rite itself was not changed.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: So it was a very cautious and even these 65 Vatican II Mass was welcomed by Archbishop Lefebvre.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: He celebrated it and the first five years in Econ, the seminary of the Society of Pius X, they celebrated the Vatican II mass of 65.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: This is a fact.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: And then another historical fact that unfortunately the Monsignor Bognini with his team, with his revolutionary team, protestant pastors for the change of the liturgy and so 67, two years after the Council, there was the first Bishops Synod in Rome with 200 bishops who almost all were participants of Vatican II, and in this 67 synod Bognini presented a draft to change more the mass and they were surprised.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: They said why?
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: We have already the mass formed according to the Vatican II Constitution.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: They said why do we have to change more?
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: And Bognini presented to them a draft and even celebrated, at experimentum, this mass, exactly the mass which we have now, the Nobus Ordo mass, the Mass which we have now, the Novus Ordo Mass, which then in 69, was approved by Paul VI and imposed upon the entire Church.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: But you majority rejected this draft Rejected.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: So you see our Novus Ordo Missus today, which was rejected by the majority of those bishops who, two years before, participated in the Second Vatican Council, two years before participated in the Second Vatican Council.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: And in spite of this rejection, in spite, two years later, in 69, paul VI approved it with the form which was rejected by the council fathers and the synod fathers and imposed it on the entire church and declaring it erroneously as the second Vatican II mass.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: And now we are 50 years taught I would say a myth by the entire hierarchy of the church that this mass is according to Vatican II, which it's not.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: No, and this is a huge mystery, your Excellency, isn't it how I follow everything that you said and I know it's totally accurate, and then you wonder how it got switched, you know?
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: It was simply a revolution of Bognini, a cunning revolution which Paul VI blessed, this revolution against the advice of the bishops in 67.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: I know this is probably an impossible question, but what do you think was in the mind of Pope Paul VI when he saw that?
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Is there any way to tell?
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: It's a mystery.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: It's a mystery.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: It's a mystery for me.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Probably he was so partly enthusiastic of all what is modern.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Probably I don't know, but it is a mystery.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: But these are the facts.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Was he, your Excellency, naive about this, do you think?
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Probably he was partly naive and partly living in an enthusiasm which was not, you see, enthusiasm Sometimes people are enthusiastic, but without sense of reality and he was in some way influenced of this enthusiasm of all what is new in liturgy and accepted this, unfortunately, yeah.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: So this gets us to, you know, as we start to unwind and be cognizant of your time, to these, to the heresies.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: You know, when we see all the problems in the world, you know, and these gender ideologies and all these things being pushed on our families, you know St Lucia of Fatima.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: She wrote to Cardinal Caffara and then John Paul, of course too, that the last great battle between our Lord and Satan is going to be over marriage and the family.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: We see this with these gender ideologies, abortion, same-sex marriages, etc.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: But then you have all these other issues in the world tyranny unleashed seemingly by COVID, the COVID vaccine mandates coming, the mass shutdown all the way across the world, open borders being pushed, and then when you say, okay, we have all those issues.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: This is the crux and this is why I asked you the question and thank you for taking the time to do that.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: Why is the present pontificate going after the traditional Latin mass?
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, this seems nefarious to me and I know you have to be careful, probably, but this is an issue that we're all trying to make sense of.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Is this attack on the mass itself?
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Just as you described, something happened there?
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Is this another mystery, and what do you think Is God going to?
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: You know who knows for sure.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: But permit this, because this is, I think, where we have to say look, I don't always go to the traditional Latin Mass, you know.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's just not always close to me.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: And so I go to the Novus Ordo but I see the lack of reverence so often and I have a very good pastor at our parish, but it's not at Orientum, if the people in the pews just understand that Jesus did that sacrifice for us but he offers it to the Father on our behalf and he has to be turning to the Father with all of us and we give the gifts, we bring the gifts up and then the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ and he goes to the Father and the Father accepts it and then he pours it all back down to us.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: It just makes sense at Orientum.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: It makes sense with more reverence.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: You can't wear flip-flops and shorts and communion on the hand and all of these issues, right?
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Why is the attack there?
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Is it as bad as we think?
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: It is underlying?
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: It seems like an evil, your Excellency.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: It seems like an evil, your Excellency.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, because I don't know what was the intention of Francis to limit and to really the traditional Latin Mass, but he did already Paul VI.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: Paul VI forbade categorically the traditional Latin mass.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: It was only after him, john Paul II, who slowly opened the doors for the possibility of traditional Latin mass in 84 and then in 88.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: And then Benedict XVI, more generously, in 2007.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: But it was Paul VI who was without pity, who completely forbade, without any exceptions, only one he did for the England, the so-called Agatha Christie.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: For because Agatha Christie and some intellectuals and artists in England asked Paul VI to grant an exception for England and Wales.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: And so it was granted, but only very limited.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: But in any case, now again the attack against the traditional Latin mass.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: I think that it seems that is a kind of despise of the tradition itself.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: It is a kind of, maybe, the presence of this venerable right.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: It is for some of the hierarchy, it is for some of the hierarchy uncomfortable with this presence of the tradition, and maybe an accusation of the conscience.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: Look, how reverent is this form.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: And in the presence of the two forms, it's evident that people say how great is the difference between both.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: The one that traditionally is so Christocentric, so elevating our souls for sacredness, for contemplation and so on, and stressing the sacrificial character, whereas the Novus Ordo is so more anthropocentric, more a kind of simply community gathering, and deprived of a very strong expression of sacredness, of silence, of supernatural character and so on, surveillance of supernatural character and so on, and therefore this evident contrast.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: I think that for some high-ranking clergymen, they are uncomfortable with this presence and so they want to limit it at maximum or extinguish it, but they will not succeed.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: The traditional Latin Mass is a work of the Holy Spirit through millennium and it cannot be destroyed, even on Babel, and God permitted this persecution in order to give us a greater good.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: After this.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: It is only a temporal limitation and persecution.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Then again, without doubt, god will give us popes who will again restore fully the tradition in doctrine, in liturgy, in the church.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: This will come because it is the essence, the substance of the apostolic ministry of the Holy See and Peter to be the light of the truth for the entire church, the clarity in doctrine, the clarity in worship, the defense of the Eucharist, which is the heart of the church, which is now partly temporarily attacked within the church with these issues which you mentioned, communion in hand and so on.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: This will.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: It is only a temporal aspect.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: We must look further.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: We must look on that God will give again the church a time the church will again flourish, which is the Catholic Church.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: It is in the hands of God, it's not in our hands.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: The Catholic Church is not in the hand of Pope Francis no, he is not eternal.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: And God will give us again a serious era of popes who are true defenders and zealous promoters of the Catholic faith, of the integrity of the Catholic faith, of the sacredness of liturgy, of the holiness of moral life, of true priestly formation.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you for that, and you state this in your books and, of course, one of the things I got out of Vatican II is they made clear.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: One of the good things is this universal call to holiness, and I think what the good that's come out of this, your Excellency, is that all of us, as laity, realize that we have to take the responsibility ourselves for all those things you described, go deeper into prayer.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: You get the knowledge of this.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Let's just as we wind down, let's because you know, let's bring up Flee from Heresy, because that book, you know that book builds on your other books, doesn't it?
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know this gives us so much good when you're looking for, you know, good, solid truth.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: You should get this book, but don't stop there.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Get Christus Vincent, get Credo, and maybe even start.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Would you start with the Mass, the Catholic Mass that you did?
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: I know Aurelio Porfiri had a little part in that.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: He gives you most of the honor there, of course, but these are wonderful books.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Where would you start if you know?
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Most of the honor there?
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Of course, but these are wonderful books.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Where would you start if you're these young families and I'm out speaking all the time to parishes, and I'd like to just you know, say, hey, there are heresies out there and we have to define those.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: We know that these battles going on, this crisis, may be the worst we've ever seen, like you said, you know, but we have to get back to the truth.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: What is the truth?
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: What is the truth in the depth of our faith?
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: And so, as we close up here a little bit, can you speak of your newest book and how it fits together with your other ones that are just so beautiful and well done?
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: So thank you for all that.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: I would recommend to start with credo because it's a systematic exposition, in short, uh, question and answer style.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: It's easier to read, and in in three sections, three um topics, great topics, the faith, what we believe in, question and answers.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Then second, how we must live morality, our moral life, and third section, how we must pray, prayer, liturgy and so on.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: So, and then I also recommend my smaller new book, flee from Heresy, which is a small synthesis of the main errors of our time, which made a synthesis there.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: It's a kind of protection against the spiritual virus which are spreading all over the world within the church but depend here from this virus, yourself and your other people, you know.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: So these two I would recommend, and of course the Holy Mass also.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: This is belonging together as we believe, so we pray, so we celebrate.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: This is connected together and therefore I have also a section in the third part of Credo about Holy Mass, but it is easier there, I repeat, with questions and short answers.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: So this I would recommend, and I bless your work, dear Mr Jack, and your family and all the good families and people who are following you.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: May they be blessed.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: And now I give the blessing to you.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: Dominus vobiscum et cum spiritu tuo, et benedictio Dei omnipotentis, patris et Filii Et Spiritus Sancti descendat super vos Et maniat semper.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: Praise be Jesus Christ, christ, now and forever.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: Forever.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: Amen.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that and we will keep you in our prayers.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Don't get tired, and we promise not to get tired either, and we're going to take up a credo and I think I'm going to do a couple of shows on that.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: You know, taking that workout and and I think it's going to be a good exercise for our audience.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: So, thank you so much, your excellency, thanks for being with us.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: God bless you.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: Talk to you later, bye, bye, thank you.