Latest / Divorce Coaches Academy / Designing the Ideal Divorce Process with Nikki Bould
Transcript
- Tracy Callahan: Welcome to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast, where we explore the role of divorce coaching in conflict resolution, decision making, and navigating divorce with clarity and intention. Tracy: Welcome back to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. I am Tracy, and today you're getting a glimpse into a conversation that usually happens pretty regularly behind the scenes over here at DCA. But before we start, for those of you who watch the video version of this podcast, you have probably noticed that I haven't been in my usual podcasting environment for the past several weeks. That is because I have been lucky enough to be spending the summer in New England, enjoying time with family, traveling up and down the coast, and if I'm totally being honest, enjoying a much needed break from the Florida heat. And sadly, as we are recording this episode, I'm in my final week before making the drive back to Florida. So I'm starting to mentally prepare myself for trading cool New England mornings and evenings for well, Florida in August. AKA hell. Hell. Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: Now, on the other side of the world, Nikki Bold is joining me from New Zealand, where she's Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: joined the middle of winter, Nikki. Nikki Bould: Yep, yeah, we are right in the middle of a very, very cold snap. Tracy: Yeah, so between the two of us, we've pretty much covered every season. Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: and for those of you that do not know Nikki, I am proud to share that she is the Director of Education and Development for Divorce Coaches Academy New Zealand, and one of my most favorite people to have these big picture conversations with. So the conversation you're about to hear isn't something we dreamed up for a podcast. It is The kind of discussion we regularly have during our director's meetings when we step away from the day-to-day runnings of DCA and take a deeper dive into the needs of families navigating divorce around the world. And one of the things I love most about our leadership team is that our directors represent different countries, different professional backgrounds, and different perspectives, but we all come back to the same question. What do families navigating divorce actually need? Because whether we are talking about families in the United States, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, or beyond, we're hearing remarkably similar stories. Families struggling with conflict, parents trying to make impossible decisions, professionals working really hard to help, but often without the systems that were necessarily designed. Around families' long-term well-being. And somewhere during almost every one of those conversations, Nikki and I find ourselves exploring options to improve the system, to do it differently. Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: And dare I say, better? Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: So we've spent more than a few directors' meetings redesigning the family dispute resolution system. Whether anyone asked us not for Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: To do so or not. So today we thought we'd invite you into one of those conversations. And this isn't about criticizing courts or legal systems. Courts serve an essential role, particularly when legal rights need to be protected, safety concerns exist, or judicial decisions are required. Nor is it about us suggesting that one professional, aka we are a little biased, or one dispute resolution process has all the answers. Instead, today's episode is a thought experiment. If we were designing a family dispute resolution system today, with everything we now know about conflict, neuroscience, child development, grief, decision making, and interdisciplinary dispute resolution, what would we build? What would happen before anyone filed for divorce? How would we prepare people before asking them to make life-changing decisions? How would we determine which professionals and processes were best suited for each unique family? What role would the courts play in supporting, not just processing, families? And perhaps maybe the biggest question of all: if our only objective was to minimize harm, preserve families whenever possible, truly honor children, and help people make better decisions, what would that system look like? We certainly don't pretend to have all the answers. But we do believe that meaningful innovation begins by asking better questions. So Nikki, Nikki, Nikki, are you ready to redesign the family dispute resolution system with me one more time? Nikki Bould: Feel like I've been ready for a long time. Let's go. Tracy: All right. So I think one of the best places is to start is by asking everyone who is listening to do something that's pretty difficult. Forget everything you know about divorce. Forget the court process, mediation, litigation, collab, forget all of it. Let's imagine we're starting with a completely blank sheet of paper. A couple has made the incredibly difficult decision that their relationship is ending. Where do they go first? What's the very first conversation they should have? Should they even be thinking about legal processes yet? Or should the first have an understanding what they're experiencing as individuals and as a family? What do you think, Nikki? Nikki Bould: my goodness. Well, you know, this is such a tough time for people. And I sometimes think about our processes and how we kind of we prepare people for processes. We actually need to prepare them to start making decisions before we start preparing them for processes or even figure out which process is right for them. You know, it's Tracy: Exactly. Nikki Bould: that that whole thing know knowledge is obviously important, key in fact, but it it knowledge alone doesn't change behaviour. So, you know, we need to build that capacity so that they can apply that knowledge when conflict is high and emotions are everywhere and the decisions really, really matter. So I guess, you know, if we have the opportunity to start from the start, the first question might be, What is the start? You know, is it me maybe deciding I'm really happy? Tracy: Yeah, that's such a great question. What is the start, right? Nikki Bould: Yeah. So well I guess in in my work and maybe in yours, Tracy, I find that a lot of the time, probably the majority of the time, it's women who make the decision, to separate. And it's usually a decision. Yep. Tracy: Statistically right. Statistically representative, seventy percent of all divorces filed are by women. Nikki Bould: by women and they've often thought about that for a long time, you know, two, three years, feeling like, well, this isn't going well. I've tried my best. I think, I think we're at the end of the road. and you know, if we start from there, obviously coaching, yes, we are biased, but that's a great place to start, isn't it? Reality testing that decision. Even further back when those thoughts come in about, hey, my my communication with my spouse or my partner isn't going well. we constantly clash when we're trying to to parent together. We seem to be parenting from opposing corners, you know, the all the sorts of things that creep in financial, you know, money matters. So yeah, maybe maybe starting there with how can we improve the relationship? you never know. Maybe maybe some would be saved. and if not, we're gonna pa pave the way for a much smoother separation, aren't we? Tracy: Yeah, I I love that because the issue here is is the conflict existed, right? The so the conflict's been present in the relationship for some time. And as you just talked about, many people, especially women who are contemplating this next step, is not something they contemplate really easily. It's something that they put a lot of time and thought into and weigh a whole bunch of different options. And I think this kind of goes back to when we even talk about disputes. Dispute resolution as a whole, I am not an advocate of divorce. I talk about it all the time, right? I am an advocate Nikki Bould: No. Well you and I are married, right? Tracy: for am I exactly Dickie. But I think that the real issue here is how do we support individuals in recognizing those conflict patterns, right? Because there's this thing that this thread that I love about the work that we do is we're supporting. people in identifying the conflict. And I'm gonna say it, right? I have so many clients who come to me who are are contemplating or exploring what a divorce process might be, right? So those are the people who are really kind of putting that work in to really feel as if they are getting prepared for this process in their own selves, in their own mindset, in their own perspective. And and they often speak about This effort in the marriage to try to go to counseling and marital counseling and therapy, and they feel very frustrated that nothing has changed. Right. Because one of the things, and I'm I I I am a huge believer in therapy, but often what we find and hear from a lot of individuals who are coming out of that is there wasn't a lot of next steps of okay, here's the issues. Now what can we do? To move forward in that process, which is really foundational and so grounded in the work that we do in dispute resolution. So I love that, right? Talking about that sort of blank slate, how does that person get access to the information they need to be able to really assess how they're viewing or experiencing the conflict that's in the marriage? As well as what resources and supports do they have to develop skills or strategies to be able to engage in that conflict. You know, I hate to I hate to throw my famous marital researchers, the Gottmans, but they they this is where all their work is grounded in is this sort of conflict pattern in in marriages that often become entrenched, even though that we know that. the majority of problems in a relationship are not resolvable. So it's not that we're all solving these problems and moving forward. No. It's that the individual's engagement in those conflicts impacts that. Nikki Bould: Yeah, we have to remember as well, you know, if you've got issues in your relationship, you separate, they don't just disappear, in fact, often they're magnified, right? And and Tracy: Yeah. Nikki Bould: living across two homes, you know, it's it can be a lot harder then to make sure that those things that sit within your values are being done across two homes. We haven't got the control anymore, right? So that that's a big adjustment that people need to make. Tracy: Yeah, and I also think that that first interaction, right? So many times divorce proceeds with that sort of knee jerk reaction of, you know, I can't take it anymore. That's it. I want a divorce. and and we know that first interaction sets the tone for so much that follows. Right. So when Nikki Bould: Yeah. Those conversations with the kids. You know, that's the biggest, most important conversation that parents have who are going through s separation. It's how to talk to children about what's happening and, you know, it can pave the way for the kids actually being able to adjust to causing some even deeper conflict, you know. worked with parents Tracy: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nikki Bould: who have not had that conversation together. Perhaps they're Co parent has decided to talk to the children from their perspective about what's happening and you know, it's just such a lost opportunity to support the children and something that is is a huge I mean, the little worlds do get turned upside down. So yeah, the more we can do for them. Tracy: Yeah, to set tone, right? To create opportunities to move forward with the least amount of conflict. Conflict is inevitable, it's gonna happen, but Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: when it's approached intentionally, especially as it relates to how this is going to impact the family, the children, that there are choices available. And I find even in this early stage, right? This blank stage, this blank sheet stage. Where we can talk about how people come into the idea of divorce, that there are options available to them. And those options create different pathways. And those pathways inevitably lead to different experiences, whether that is escalating conflict or efforts to minimize the conflict and the impact to kids. Nikki Bould: Yeah. Yeah. I mean we we are never gonna eliminate conflict from family life. but we can certainly change how people engage with it. And so, you know, rather than the goal being no conflict, it should be healthy conflict, you know, and and kids don't need perfect parents, they need people who are able to you know, repair. This is really important modelling we can do for our children. adapt, communicate, keep making the decisions that are actually in their children's best interests and It's really interesting, isn't it, how often we hear that phrase, best interests of the children. It's Tracy: Mm. Nikki Bould: got that legal flavour to it and and and a lot of the time we talk to parents about best interests without actually telling the well having that discussion around what's the science that sits behind that phrase? What does it really mean? Tracy: What does it really mean? And again, from perspectives of different people, what I believe to be the best interest may not align with what you believe to be the best interest. So Nikki Bould: Hmm. Wow. Tracy: you well, you also kind of talked a little bit about this when we were talking with this, you know, starting from the beginning. So it's this idea, right? Of, and we've talked a lot about this, that sometimes I think we've gotten the sequence backwards. Right. Right now we often ask people. To participate in processes or to even pick a process before we've even helped them prepare for what those processes even entail or what those conversations have. So, how do you think we can handle this, right? I I I think so much is grounded in education because I don't think people really understand. their choices, their options when they're looking at different processes. But Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: what where do you see that right in this preparation process or or what preparation could look like? And and how would we get that process to people first, right? That we were preparing them to have choices and options even before they engaged in those choices and options. Nikki Bould: Yeah, well, you know, we we often sort of look at things and go, is is somebody ready for mediation or are they ready to go to court again? Are they actually ready to make decisions about their children? And I I think about how we do all of the other stuff. We we we learn something, we practice it, and then we perform it, right? But this transition, this major transition, we ask people to sort of perform first. Right, let's let's do all of these things and maybe at the end we'll we'll throw you in New Zealand we've got our section forty six G, which if you've been through the court system, you can have some communication coaching and counseling because the court recognized they've rubber stamped your parenting plan, but now in the implementation of it, we've still got major conflict and it's that band-aid at the other end. So as you say, we need we need to bring this forward. We need to do the preparation, and that's not just about giving people the information, they actually have to develop the habits, right? So that they can access the information and the skills when they're under pressure. Tracy: Yeah, you talked about that a little also when you first started sharing information about that capacity. And then I'm even gonna talk about readiness for capacity. Right. And and when we talk about readiness and capacity, we're talking about on so many different levels, emotionally, cognitively, physically, spiritually, and in how that information, that strategy. developing those skills and I don't want to go so much to strategy. I'm I'm preempting myself a little, but the the skills to be able to be emotionally engaged in a process, that is emotionally overwhelming. We talk Nikki Bould: Yeah. Yeah. Tracy: about, right, when when emotions are high, thinking is low. Nikki Bould: Mm-hmm. Tracy: So in that preparation of even looking at what those options are, to be able to be even educated about what those options are, there has to be sort of this readiness or or ability to receive that information. Nikki Bould: Yeah, yeah. And of course the earlier we get in, going back again to where's the start, the earlier we get in, the less entrenched patterns of conflict we have, the more opportunity we have for people to develop and practice these skills before they really need it. Right? You don't you don't have emergency responders learning on the job how to risk that they they'll if they're in fight or flight, they can't show up for us and and help us out. And we've got these kids, right, who r are relying on their parents to be able to show up. in a way that is going to enable them to not be involved in the adult conflict, right? That's a that's the hardest thing for kids. lovely phrase about the divorce centered childhood or a child centered divorce, right? Tracy: Mm-hmm. Nikki Bould: but yeah I I think for a lot of parents there's a huge amount of overwhelm just in terms of we don't know what to do next. We don't know we don't even know where to start. And so I would love to see some kind of call an education program, a readiness program, something that parents could engage with so that they start to see from the very beginning, hey, how what's a really good way to manage the separation for our family? What what can we take from these options here that would fit with us and and every family is unique? but just to to help them see that actually you don't have to do it in the very highly conflicted way that your sister or your neighbour did. You've got options and you know these choices If we decide where we want to go, we can then work on how to get there. Tracy: Yeah, I I agree a hundred percent, right? It's this access to information and education about how what the options are in terms of divorce processes, benefits and impacts of those processes, that then individuals can sort of identify processes that align with what their needs and interests are, even before then we're working on capacity and that readiness process. I often say when clients call me up and say, I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. And I say, Well, how are how are you supposed to know? Right. When when we were all getting married, there wasn't, hey, hey, by the way, take this course on how to get divorced. You might need it down the road. Right. So, Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: so nobody really understands what that looks like, different choices and options. And then once the We create opportunities for clients to understand or individuals, society, people to know that these choices are available to them, then creating opportunities to develop that readiness and capacity. You were talking a little bit about with children, you know, there's a lot of states, Florida being one of them, that you have the parents, if you're getting divorced with minor children, have to participate in what It's called a parenting stabilization course, right? And this is this online course that really is sort of taught at a pretty, pretty elementary level. But the intention there is to create opportunity to share information with parents to support opportunities to minimize conflict or to truly have an additional educational moment to see how conflict negatively impacts children. The unfortunate part about it, I think, is that so many people blow through that as just a a check that has to be completed to be able to go to that next step. But education and readiness and skill development, so, so, so important. So I want to kind of lead naturally into divorce coaching, right? So let's imagine divorce coaching wasn't something people happen to discover. Halfway through their divorce. Let's imagine we intentionally built it into the system. Something I know both you and I talk about all the time. Who do you think would benefit most? And if you, I know in in New Zealand, there is an opportunity because the parties have a mediated or or a sponsored mediation process that they're allowed. or allotted a certain amount of time. But if we were to look at divorce coaching, having that, where do you see the benefit? Where do you see that beginning? What would that look like for you? Nikki Bould: Well, given that I have a a lot of clients referred to me by FDR mediators because they are not ready to engage in mediation and you know the mediator might have done a a series of joint mediation sessions and realized actually well this person isn't showing up, able to regulate their emotions and make good, sensible decisions. So, you know, knowing that we have to say that this readiness piece does need to come first. And one of the things that we do as coaches is we do do that practice with our clients. So, you know, parents know children benefit from low conflict. So they know that, right? It's not the same as being able to regulate yourself if your co parent says something very provocative while the children are present. You know, that the knowing of it and the doing of it are separate. And in our coaching practices, obviously we're we're there and and we're using our clients' lived experience. They know their co parent well. They've obviously had a significant enough relationship to have produced children. So they've got some idea of how they're gonna receive and respond. And so we can use that to do some practicing, some reframing. And actually, I have a lot of clients who say look it it's it's really transformed my co-parenting relationship, but also my relationships with the children and with my parents and at work. Right. Okay. Tracy: That's emotional conflict, shocker. Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: Yeah, so I mean, if I had my perfect system, you know, as people were preparing to engage in a legal divorce action, that there would be an opportunity to at least have a consultation with somebody to be able to help them identify their interests, to do some discovery, to look at what their capacity is, and then to look at opportunities to continue to build those skills prior to proceeding with their process, right? Whether that is moving into mediation or continuing to engage the court or a collaborative process, to really then be able to have that moment to be able to work with somebody who's helping identify those skills and needs and creating the support that they need that looks different. It's not just emotional support. Right. The emotion plays a piece in this, but it's a it's one cog in a very, very intricate set of gears, if you will, that all have to sort of operate together. And the emotional piece is important. It certainly is because it impacts often individuals' ability to think clearly, to engage in decision making, to respond rather than engaging in that sort of nervous system activation. And And when we're able to create opportunities for people to see that, understand that, experience it kind of what you're talking about, not just understanding in theory, but looking at the application of that and their relational conflicts, whether again, it's the individual that their spouse that they're now looking to end the marriage with or the relationship with their children. So in my ideal worlds, I I in the United States, I would love to see divorce coaching be at the forefront as a a a process of dispute resolution or early dispute resolution in the court systems where people are being identified or or being offered to them at a a low cost versus engagement. Not everybody needs that level of support, but There's a lot of people. When we talk about in the United States, I don't know if you know the statistics in New Zealand, but we often talk about that 80% of the cases in front of our court system are family. And if you think about what a huge disproportionate amount of cases that is for family work, there's something here, right? That there's something that we can change. Every process we talk about is after that conflict is gotten out of hand. Right. Parenting coordination in the United States is the divorce is gone or is moving forward. And the parents need help implementing their parenting plan or staying in in alignment with their parenting plan or minimizing the impact of their conflict on their children because these two can't still get along. So everything is after the fact. And I would love to be more proactive. in that process of creating opportunities and resources for individuals to engage and know about these services in a much, much more expedient process at the forefront. Nikki Bould: Yeah. Well, we've got an amazing colleague of ours, Deborah Manning, who describes us as the Margaret Hula Hands. And there were maybe some Tracy: Yeah. Nikki Bould: listeners who are not old enough to remember the TV show MASH, but she was the, you know, the triage nurse and she was able to really figure out what do these people need, right? And now I can send them in the right direction to get the support. And you know, sometimes that's ongoing support from us as divorced coaches and Potentially no need for any other process. So in New Zealand, of course, relationship property, if it's a a binding agreement, must be certified with independent legal advice. But even getting to that agreement, you know, there's so much work that we do as coaches from that principle based ADR focus. So we're not just thinking about well, what do I want or based on basing my decisions on fear of not enough. and fears of the future. We actually we we help our clients really get clear about what is it that they need. And then, you know, it takes a lot of that negotiation away from the lawyers or away from the courts where the decision making doesn't feel like it's in the hands of the people who are gonna have to live with the decision. Tracy: Absolutely. So you you're talking about sort of triaging, which Nikki Bould: What? Tracy: we can also kind of put it into a case management process, right? Where there is almost an early dispute resolution case manager that Nikki Bould: well. Tracy: is is looking at these families and having a quick conversation with them and trying to identify need or interests of those families early on and being out get them to the right resources, the right processes, because as you said, not everybody needs the same thing, right? So, so really building the right process for the right family is recognizing that no two families are alike, right? We don't expect families all the same way. Yet we have created these systems that do try to do that, right? And it's constantly trying to fit a square into a round peg, which isn't going to always work. Nikki Bould: Yeah. Yeah. Tracy: Right. So I I we're we're we can do this all day long, right? So you Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: know we're talking about and maybe maybe this idea was a bit, you know, Nikki Bould: Ambitious. Tracy: over over overambitious. So this might be part one, part two, part three. but when we talk about this idea of redefining success, because in in divorce, in our legal system, right, success is in theory, it's done. Right. We reached Nikki Bould: Yeah. Tracy: an agreement, we got it signed, we made it to final judgment, we got the order, we did whatever. What if we were also to define success differently? So if you were to define success in our ideal world, Nikki, what would that look like? Nikki Bould: I think you're absolutely right. And and our system in New Zealand, I believe, confuses success with a signed agreement, because a signed agreement isn't necessarily a good agreement. You know, from my perspective, I'd rather see a durable agreement that takes six weeks to reach than a rushed agreement that we signed today, but it's actually not right the right thing for that family. So now I've forgotten what the question was, Tracy. Going off on my tangent. funny. Tracy: Right, defining success, right? So often we define success in the system that's kind of created this entity that again we're not, you know, totally criticizing, but that success is we did it, we got through it, we we got to final judgment or we got the order signed. And and I think it creates a false pretense for families in terms of what success is, and I think That's what we're seeing, just what you were talking about. It doesn't lead a signed agreement doesn't lead to a durable agreement. Right? A Nikki Bould: Yeah. And and Tracy: signed agreement doesn't take away conflict. Nikki Bould: Yeah. And, you know, a good coaching doesn't tell people what decisions to make, obviously. It helps them become better decision makers. And if they are better prepared, they're going to make better use of all of the professionals they come into contact with. So success to me would be taking our unique families, working with them to figure out what what are their outcomes that they want for their family. And then we we figure out, well, what do we need? Who else do we need to bring onto our team to help you get there? You know, maybe that is a a therapist or maybe it is a lawyer or mediation. But again, just actually working with each individual family, figuring out what can you change? What's one thing you can change today? Actually, that's going to improve outcomes for your children and your co-parenting. There's so much that people can do, but the overwhelm can just be crippling. Tracy: Crippling. And I think again, because we kind of set up the system to work against people. Because the agreement is the hardest part. But what if success was just healthier communication or or communication boundaries or less conflict or engagement in better decision making or children feeling more emotionally safe? Virtual agreements, agreements that actually last and maybe, maybe just even crazy enough families not returning to court over and over again. What if those became our measures of success? We would more than likely design a different system because the system that we have does not work towards that at all. Nikki Bould: No. Yeah, it would allow our courts actually to deal with the matters that really do require the court, right? Rather than a a lot of parents ending up there because they were unable to resolve the conflict and make the decisions. It's often not even a legal issue, right? Tracy: Yeah, yes. Which kind of brings us to that idea of conflict, right? What if conflict isn't actually the problem? Because conflict is part of every relationship. We talked about this, but maybe the issue is the engagement of that conflict, how people engage in conflict. And when we're talking about the opportunity for people to be educated, develop capacity, readiness. And effective and efficient engagement and conflict. We are actually teaching people better conflict skills that encompasses so many different things from emotional regulation, accountability, perspective taking, collaboration, true negotiation, right? That these skills inevitably would impact their lives moving forward in so many different ways. Nikki Bould: No, a hundred percent. Yeah. Tracy: Yeah. Nikki Bould: Our clients often come back to us. They may have resolved the majority of what was going on in the co parenting relationship and they come back because they're thinking about dating somebody new or there'll be something else, but they they really appreciate the sounding board that we are and just that reminder of what makes a good decision. And yeah, what what what is success for you? What would a successful relationship look like? Tracy: Yeah, yeah. So there's so many great ideas. There's so many innovative processes. It I it I know in some of the focus that's been on the United States as well as in New Zealand and Australia, you know, there's been more in the forefront about trauma informed work and the experiences people are having. I love to always add conflict informed work that. we if we truly understand how people experience conflict and what conflict does to individuals, it creates even greater opportunities to look at these systems. And there is a lot of innovation. So I don't, I I don't want to say that it's all doom and gloom and there's a lot of us out there working to to do this. So Nikki, despite these challenges, I have seen some really encouraging changes over the years. I'm going to say one of the greatest is the evolution and continued evolution of divorce coaching and access to divorce coaching in the United States, New Zealand, in Canada. in Europe, we're seeing Canada. There's just lots of opportunities where we have opportunities to help families engage in dispute resolution and and change that. So Where where are you already seeing some systems evolving over by you in New Zealand? Nikki Bould: I think conversations have changed, you know, about maybe even as recently as ten years ago we we were mostly talking about people's rights. and and we are more now talking about relationships and child development and neuroscience, emotional regulation, better decision making, all of those things. We it is a really hopeful shift that we've got towards a more holistic approach to separation rather than just feeling like it's it w the the goal is to reach some kind of agreement for parenting and relationship property, tick it off and then everything's gonna be fine. And of course you and I know that that's that that doesn't even actually touch the sides, but we are moving towards this better approach, recognizing we've got unique individuals and unique families involved and and we can't have this one size fits all. So yeah, I really appreciate that. And and divorce coaching in New Zealand is very, very new. Still many people out there who have no idea who we are or what we do. So You know, just the work that we're doing here in education and exposure for the industry, I think has been also giving our clients a lot of hope that there's a better way to do this, a really supportive way that builds these skills that are useful for just life in general, but particularly helpful in getting that support through a really tough time. Tracy: Yeah, I love that. And I think what we're gonna see as as the system continues to evolve is going to be from pressure of the consumers, the people who are doing this. They're through education and advocacy, they're saying, well, there could be a better choice. And I think the more individuals who are going through these systems are the ones who are pushing back on that system to say, hey, wait a minute, can this be different? Can I be more prepared? Can I engage more effectively? Can I define success differently? Can I do this for myself and the benefit of our family? So Nikki, I wanna thank you. And for everyone listening, whether you are a divorce coach or a mediator, attorney, parenting, coordinator, therapist, financial professional, or just someone working with families in another capacity. There is something that you could be doing today, even if the larger system doesn't change, that you can create better outcomes for the next family that you serve. So I want to thank you so much. I want to thank you, Nikki, for joining me and dreamscaping what our ideal Nikki Bould: Mm. Tracy: system would look like. And I absolutely believe that this is going to be a continued conversation. And I want to thank you all for listening. So We continue to support families through innovation, through, through development, through creating opportunities. And that's what this is all about. That's what DCA is about. If you're interested in learning more about the work that we do and in training and certifying divorce coaches around the world in New Zealand or in the United States or Canada or Australia or the Arabian Gulf, check us out. at divorcecoachesacademy.com. We love the work that we do. I know you love the work that you do, Nikki. I love the work that we do. And it's essential work. It's essential work because there is direct outcome when we can see families have better experiences. Nikki Bould: Yeah. It's an incredibly positive, uplifting job that we do actually, even though we're dealing with people going through such a hard time, seeing them come through that, the shifts and the changes and the growth. It's deeply satisfying. Yeah. Tracy: Yes. All right. Everyone, thank you so much for joining us. Until next time. Nikki Bould: Thanks. Tracy Callahan: Thank you for listening to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. For more insights and training, visit divorcecoachesacademy.com.