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Charles Manson Cult Killer Walks Free: Victims' Kin Distraught · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease, a cold blooded mass killer
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  Speaker 1: walks free, walking amongst us, And no, the mass killer
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: did not scale the jailhouse walls to escape. There was
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: no elaborate plan to run free. As a matter of fact,
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  Speaker 1: she walked out on her own volition and has now
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  Speaker 1: turned into somewhat.
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  Speaker 2: Of a media darling.
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  Speaker 1: A mass killer has walked free, and the governor practically
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: rolled out a red carpet. I'm talking about a Charles
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  Speaker 1: Manson cult killer. I'mancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Foxination and Serious
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  Speaker 1: sexem one eleven.
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  Speaker 2: I want you to take.
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  Speaker 1: A listen to the Charles Manson cult killer. Leslie van
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  Speaker 1: Houten listened, and.
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  Speaker 3: So then I'm supposed to mess her up. And I
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  Speaker 3: took the knife and I started stabbing, and I turned
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  Speaker 3: into an animal almost, you know.
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  Speaker 4: I just completely let out on that woman's.
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  Speaker 3: Bad and it felt so weird that I blew my
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  Speaker 3: mind behind that you can't understand what I mean, but
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  Speaker 3: blow my mind.
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  Speaker 4: I mean I lost control. I went completely messed that moment.
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  Speaker 3: It was hard to get through. Like when I thought stabbing,
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  Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't really have any idea in my.
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  Speaker 1: Mind, no idea in my mind. I was supposed to
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  Speaker 1: quote mess her up. I took the knife and I
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  Speaker 1: started stabbing. I turned into an animal and more.
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  Speaker 2: Listen, it's a real feelings.
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  Speaker 4: It's not even like cutting a piece of meat. It's
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  Speaker 4: much tougher.
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  Speaker 3: And I had to use both hands and all my pressure,
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  Speaker 3: all my strength behind it to get it in. And
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  Speaker 3: so once they started, the feeling was so weird that
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  Speaker 3: I just kept doing it. And then I went into
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  Speaker 3: the other room and I noticed that there's been things
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  Speaker 3: written on the wall. There was pig and rise and
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  Speaker 3: helter skelter, but I know that they were written in blood.
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  Speaker 2: It's not like coming a piece of meat. It's much tougher.
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  Speaker 1: I had to use both hands and all my pressure
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  Speaker 1: and all my strength behind it to get it in.
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  Speaker 2: I just kept doing it.
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  Speaker 1: You are hearing the chilling words of a mass killer
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  Speaker 1: Leslie van Houghten. To the shock of many, now walking free,
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  Speaker 1: she goes.
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  Speaker 4: On listen and put on and meat for him to
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  Speaker 4: be the eatable off.
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  Speaker 3: Dying.
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  Speaker 4: The woman down because.
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  Speaker 5: He had done it before. It was yeah, the lamp
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  Speaker 5: cord has been.
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  Speaker 4: She jumped.
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  Speaker 1: All of a sudden she jumped up after having her
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  Speaker 1: hands tied with a lamp cord. Rosemary law Beyonca's head
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  Speaker 1: covered in a pillow case as she sustained.
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  Speaker 2: Over forty stab wounds.
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  Speaker 1: And this killer is free to the shock of the victims' families. Again,
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  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, Joining me right now
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: an all star panel to make sense of what we
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  Speaker 1: know right now. But first to Anthony d Maria, nephew
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  Speaker 1: of one of the Manson murder victims, director of Jay
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  Speaker 1: Sabreing cutting to the truth, Anthony, thank you for being
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: with us. What has been the reaction of the victims'
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  Speaker 1: families to Leslie vn Houghton walking free.
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  Speaker 6: Well, I've spoken with numerous of the families and we're
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  Speaker 6: in a state of shock, even though we saw this
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  Speaker 6: week it was announced that this is where the release
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  Speaker 6: was headed. It's literally gut wrenching and mind numbing, nauseating.
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  Speaker 6: But all of us I've spoken to share that we
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  Speaker 6: feel a tremendous sense of betrayal, let down by the
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  Speaker 6: justice system, and an extreme We're extremely disappointed that the
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  Speaker 6: governor decided not to file an appeal that did allowed
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  Speaker 6: the release of Leslie.
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  Speaker 1: Also joining me in addition to the nephew of one
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  Speaker 1: of the Manson murder victims, Ava Roosevelt. She had actually
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: been invited to share and Tate and Roman plants He's home,
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  Speaker 1: and was an inch away from being murdered that night.
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  Speaker 1: She's the author of The Racing Heart, available on Amazon.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: You can find that at the Racingheart dot com. Ama,
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  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I really paused and
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  Speaker 1: thought about whether I should play for you and the listeners.
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  Speaker 1: The words in her own words, Leslie van Houghton describing
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: how difficult it was to slice into the victims. But
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  Speaker 1: as I've told many many juries, it's very hard to
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  Speaker 1: listen to. But in order to make a true decision
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  Speaker 1: or each a true verdict, you have to know the truth,
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  Speaker 1: and that is the truth. What is your response to
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  Speaker 1: Leslie Van Hotten walking free.
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  Speaker 7: It's shocking. It's an egregious egregious uh legal for power
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  Speaker 7: really And I think that I just wanted to say
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  Speaker 7: to the gentleman speaking before me that Jay Sebring was
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  Speaker 7: a very good I'm very sorry for your lord. There
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  Speaker 7: are no words by how I feel, really, and if
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  Speaker 7: I break down, please forgive me, because I'm the tragedy,
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  Speaker 7: not only of the Lablanca but also Jay C bring Gibe,
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  Speaker 7: Folder Voidect and of course Sharon. The biggest picture for
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  Speaker 7: me here is uh, she's walking. She's going to be
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  Speaker 7: supported by the society and received a red carpet. Like
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  Speaker 7: you said, I wish I had it in my heart
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  Speaker 7: to praise. I can't because no amount of LSD at
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  Speaker 7: any age would make me commit a crime like as
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  Speaker 7: the word, she's accused of and convicted.
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  Speaker 1: All you know what, Ava, You're so right, not only
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  Speaker 1: accused of but convicted. And at the time that Van
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Houghten was convicted of multiple murders, she was sentenced to
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  Speaker 1: the death penalty. Then the state of California reversed the
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: death penalty and her sentence was reduced to not life
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  Speaker 1: without parole but life joining me again, as I mentioned,
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  Speaker 1: an all star panel. But now to Lisa Statmann, author
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  Speaker 1: of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate Family's account of Stardom
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  Speaker 1: Manson murders and a Crusade for Justice. Lisa, how did
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  Speaker 1: this happen? Why did the Governor Gavin Newsom just lay
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  Speaker 1: down and let Leslie Vnhatten roll all over him? He said, well,
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: you know what, I don't think the California Supreme Court
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  Speaker 1: is going to keep her behind bar.
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  Speaker 2: So I just give up? Why why give up on
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  Speaker 2: what's right?
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  Speaker 1: You know?
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  Speaker 2: I think it's a couple of things, Nancy.
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  Speaker 8: If we look back, history is literally repeating itself to
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  Speaker 8: when Dorstate became involved in these Pearl hearings, all the
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  Speaker 8: way back in nineteen seventy eight, when Vane had nine
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  Speaker 8: hundred signatures for her release, and it was right at
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  Speaker 8: that moment that Dorstate, even though Leslie was not convicted
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  Speaker 8: of Sharon's murder, she knew that the floodgates were going
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  Speaker 8: to open for the rest of them. And what was
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  Speaker 8: happening in that moment is that there were no DA representatives,
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  Speaker 8: there was a Border Prison Terms panel that had to
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  Speaker 8: do zero research on the commitment offense. Therefore they never
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  Speaker 8: went over it. And as it is now, we had
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  Speaker 8: overcrowding in prisons. And so basically what is happening is
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  Speaker 8: exactly what happened in nineteen seventy eight, and sadly we
• 9:02
  Speaker 8: don't have the political backing that Doristate grew and nurtured
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  Speaker 8: until it was a victim's Right state, and that is slowly,
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  Speaker 8: slowly been flipping away. There's also the misconception of the
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  Speaker 8: fact that she you know, at her last parole hearing,
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  Speaker 8: they gave her the stipulation basically, you're qualified for parole
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  Speaker 8: because you're part of your elderly and you've served more
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  Speaker 8: than twenty five years in prison. That was the only
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  Speaker 8: criteria that they gave her to get out.
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  Speaker 9: So while I.
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  Speaker 8: Am incredibly disappointed in Gavin Newsom for not fighting the fight,
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  Speaker 8: what he is basically saying, I think is that it
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  Speaker 8: is a lost cause in this moment in our state,
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  Speaker 8: because we are shifting to the criminal's rights as opposed
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  Speaker 8: to the victim's right.
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  Speaker 1: Guys, you just heard Lisa Statman mention this Leslie van
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  Speaker 1: Houghton appearing before the Pardon and Parole boards. But I
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  Speaker 1: want you to hear exactly what she's saying in order
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  Speaker 1: to get out. I mean, has anybody on this panel
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  Speaker 1: heard Let me think of a good example. Anybody's seen
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  Speaker 1: Ocean's eleven. Do you remember when George Clooney said everything
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  Speaker 1: he was supposed to say to the Pardoner and Parole
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  Speaker 1: Board about how he admits he did it, He's sorry
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  Speaker 1: he did it, He'll never do it again, He's a
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  Speaker 1: changed man. He was upset because his wife had left him,
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  Speaker 1: which is Julia Roberts, who wouldn't be upset, and then
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  Speaker 1: he gets out and does an incredible heist. Right, he
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  Speaker 1: knew what he had to say. I'm trying to give
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  Speaker 1: you an example. This happens over and over every day.
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  Speaker 1: As a matter of fact. Take a listen to our
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  Speaker 1: cut six. This is Sharon Tate's sister Deborhate speaking to
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  Speaker 1: this exact issue on News Nation.
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  Speaker 2: She is speaking rehearsed words.
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  Speaker 10: It's part of the rehabilitation program. Is they actually teach
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  Speaker 10: inmates what to say and how to handle themselves. She
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  Speaker 10: has never said she was sorry in a letter or
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  Speaker 10: a personal form to the Lobyanca family.
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  Speaker 2: She will cry phony.
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  Speaker 10: Tears in the courtroom saying she's sorry to the parole board,
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  Speaker 10: but not to her victims' families.
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  Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now, former federal prosecutor,
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  Speaker 1: author of Hunting Charles Manson, LESE.
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  Speaker 2: Will Lee, thank you so much for being with us, Lise.
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  Speaker 1: Is that true our inmates coached on what to say
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  Speaker 1: when they go up before pardon and parole?
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  Speaker 11: Nancy absolutely. And I'll give you another example when Anthony
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  Speaker 11: was there. That's the Text Watson parole hearing, the last
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  Speaker 11: parole hearing that he had several years ago, and I
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  Speaker 11: was there as the only journalist that was allowed in.
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  Speaker 11: I was with the victims, and they were petrified of
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  Speaker 11: the fact that because of California law, that Text Watson
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  Speaker 11: could get out for the same reasons that Leslie van
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  Speaker 11: Holton just got out.
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  Speaker 8: Can I interject something real quick? This is Lisa Statman. Yes,
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  Speaker 8: at Leslie van Holton's one of her parole hearings. You know,
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  Speaker 8: they have to have a psychiatric evaluation before every hearing.
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  Speaker 8: And I would like to give you a quote that
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  Speaker 8: speaks to everything that you just said. This is from
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  Speaker 8: a doctor McDaniel. He said, Miss van Holton possesses a
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  Speaker 8: degree of personal term that is very convincing. The obvious
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  Speaker 8: question is whether this represents poo emotional change and restructuring
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  Speaker 8: of her personality or someone who is so smooth in
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  Speaker 8: their manipult relations that they're barely perceptible. And I'm going
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  Speaker 8: to say that that puts a nut on Lessie van Houghton.
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  Speaker 8: And to go back to what Ava said, and is
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  Speaker 8: the fact that she has never and this is a
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  Speaker 8: requirement of the border prison terms for a release. She
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  Speaker 8: has never taken full responsibility for her actions. She has
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  Speaker 8: said I participated, She has said I gingerly stabbed Rosemary
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  Speaker 8: LaBianca in the back after she was dead.
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  Speaker 9: And you know in those tapes she said she doesn't
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  Speaker 9: know she's dead.
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  Speaker 1: Guys, I want you to hear the words of Leslie Vanhattan. Now,
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  Speaker 1: this is after Sharon Tate's sister claims, and I agree
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  Speaker 1: with her that Leslie Vanhattan is simply reciting words that
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  Speaker 1: she's been coached to say in order to get what
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  Speaker 1: she wants, and that is released. Why is she released
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  Speaker 1: when the victims are still in their coffins, they're still dead,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: but she is out enjoying life. As a matter of fact,
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  Speaker 1: has turned into a media sensation. She's like a little
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  Speaker 1: pet or a mascot while they're still dead and their
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  Speaker 1: families have somehow moved forward as best they can, limping
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  Speaker 1: and hurting. And now this, but this I'm playing for you,
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  Speaker 1: is how Leslie van Houghton really feels in her own words.
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  Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut eleven.
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  Speaker 12: Could you tell us how you feel now about what
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  Speaker 12: happened to the blob beyond because and all the other
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  Speaker 12: people that were killed.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I can't really feel sorry because I did it,
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  Speaker 3: and I did it.
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  Speaker 4: Would there have the intention of it being right?
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  Speaker 3: I heard that mister t sort of blew his mind.
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  Speaker 3: You've got a yippy.
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  Speaker 4: Hairdoo looking for the people that did it to his daughter.
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  Speaker 4: That's so sorry for those people.
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  Speaker 3: I really want to be honest. If you know, wow,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: well all it is the body.
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  Speaker 2: What you were doing was right?
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  Speaker 12: And if you did it, why was it right?
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  Speaker 4: I thought it was perfectly right.
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  Speaker 2: No remorse what so ever. None.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: In fact, Van Houghton says, I thought it was perfectly right.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Back to Les will joining Us, author of Hunting Charles
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Masnet took her two years to research and write the
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: book now on Amazon.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Is it true?
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  Speaker 1: Van Houghton to this day has never expressed remorse.
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  Speaker 2: She admits she did it.
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  Speaker 1: She goes into gruesome details about how it was so
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  Speaker 1: hard to cut human flesh, describes every single aspect of it,
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  Speaker 1: we think, but never shows any remorse.
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  Speaker 2: No tears, no upset, nothing, no.
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  Speaker 11: And you hear it, they were just bodies. Can you
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  Speaker 11: imagine saying that they.
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  Speaker 6: Were just bodies?
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  Speaker 11: There's no remorse it's coaching. Just as Text Watson was
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  Speaker 11: coached and had to look at a list of the
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  Speaker 11: victims as he rattled them up. He had to actually
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  Speaker 11: look at them because he couldn't remember them. So, you know,
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  Speaker 11: these people have both been coached, and the legal standard.
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  Speaker 11: This is what's so terrifying to me. The legal standard
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  Speaker 11: is whether she can be whether she's the danger to
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  Speaker 11: the community. That's one of the prongs, right, Yes, I
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  Speaker 11: think she still is. This person is a cult follower,
• 16:27
  Speaker 11: and you know, with Tex Watson and his hearing, it
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  Speaker 11: was I've found Christ and I'm going to be you know,
• 16:33
  Speaker 11: I'm going to follow Christ. Well, he gets into a
• 16:35
  Speaker 11: church and does whatever the preacher says, you know, the
• 16:37
  Speaker 11: pastor says, you get a you know, wacko pastor or
• 16:40
  Speaker 11: preach preacher. Same thing. I mean, she gets out she's
• 16:45
  Speaker 11: a cult member. She's going to find another type of cult,
• 16:47
  Speaker 11: whatever that is in our day to day life, and
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  Speaker 11: join that and do whatever that cult leader says. I mean,
• 16:54
  Speaker 11: it's just incredible to me that the court system didn't
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  Speaker 11: see that that she is still a danger that can.
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  Speaker 1: Another danger in the release of Leslie Manhaughtan is that
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: it releases the floodgates they're open. Now are all the
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Manson killers going to be released? And because of this release?
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  Speaker 1: Can other killers?
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  Speaker 7: Now?
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  Speaker 2: Say? Will let Leslie vn Houghten out? Why can't I
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: get out?
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  Speaker 1: Because under our jurisprudence, under our constitution, there is quote
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: equal protection under the law. In other words, one person
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: is not to be treated differently than another person in
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: our court system. So if Ben Houghton Gill walk free,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: why not everybody else? That is a serious threat. Now
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: back to Ben Houghton herself, take a listen to our
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: cut eighteen van Houghton in her own words, and.
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  Speaker 4: I put, what's happening to me? We can lay all right?
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: I mean Katie tried.
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  Speaker 13: To daddy and the knife was suspended, so we can't.
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: And I can't remember which one of us did it.
• 18:13
  Speaker 13: It would have been me, and we said, you know,
• 18:15
  Speaker 13: text coming it was a knife, don't dance the only.
• 18:19
  Speaker 7: She was dead.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: We didn't. She didn't make any eating with me. If
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: Katie turned.
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  Speaker 14: To get the knife into the throat and it wouldn't go.
• 18:31
  Speaker 14: And I remember seeing her being fat in front of
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  Speaker 14: her closet, old bloody on her stomach.
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  Speaker 2: Some of those words were hard to hear.
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  Speaker 1: She says, I can't remember which one of us did
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: at stab Rosemary. It could have been me, and we said, Text,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: come here, it comes in and the knife is all bent.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Mister l Bianca was dead and Text wanted to see.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: One of the other victim was making gurgling noises, and
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: another Manson cult member told Van Howton to stick the
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: knife in Rosemary's throat and she said it wouldn't go.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: And I remember seeing her lying flat in front of
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: the closet, all bloody on her stomach. This is who
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: has just walked free. Speaking from my own personal experience,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: it's a hurt you never get over to Anthony de
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: Maria when you see when you learn the one that murdered,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: the one you love the most walk free, it's so
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: debilitating because it feels like there is no justice.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I want to hear your thoughts, Anthony.
• 20:00
  Speaker 6: Can I respond to that, But I'd like to circle
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: back to some very important points that you've made with
• 20:05
  Speaker 6: regard in all all the guests here, with regard to
• 20:08
  Speaker 6: Leslie VN. Houghton's words and what you played is the
• 20:11
  Speaker 6: actual Leslie Van Holten. Now, I've been to dozens of
• 20:15
  Speaker 6: parole hearings, six of Leslie's as a Lobianca family representative,
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: and I think it's important to a stat I would
• 20:24
  Speaker 6: like to share actual quotes of hers that shows the
• 20:28
  Speaker 6: Leslie van Houden in the parole room. And this quote,
• 20:31
  Speaker 6: it's I'm going to quote now in Leslie's words quote
• 20:34
  Speaker 6: the autopsy report verifies that there were superficial stab wounds
• 20:39
  Speaker 6: in the lower back of Miss LaBianca. I have consistently
• 20:43
  Speaker 6: testified and taken responsibility for those those wounds were post
• 20:49
  Speaker 6: mortem end quote. I want to get to this most
• 20:52
  Speaker 6: recent quote where she states, quote, I know it's my
• 20:56
  Speaker 6: responsibility that I allowed this happen to me. I take
• 21:03
  Speaker 6: responsibility that I allowed myself to follow him end quote.
• 21:09
  Speaker 6: These are not the words of a rehabilitated killer. These
• 21:14
  Speaker 6: are the tactical ruminations of a very cunning, narcissistic social path.
• 21:21
  Speaker 6: And as you clearly revealed, she states in these parole
• 21:27
  Speaker 6: hearings that she yelled out to Watson we can't kill her,
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: as if she didn't have the will to kill. But
• 21:33
  Speaker 6: what she actually said was in facts, we can't kill her.
• 21:37
  Speaker 6: The knife is all bent. So she's actually not the
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: passive participant that she portrays herself to be. At that point,
• 21:45
  Speaker 6: she actually directed Charles Watson to kill her hostage to
• 21:52
  Speaker 6: finish the kill. That is the real Leslie van Houghton.
• 21:57
  Speaker 6: And it is disgusting to our families that the parole
• 22:01
  Speaker 6: boards don't do their research enough to seek through this charade.
• 22:05
  Speaker 6: And it's a very despicable charade. To your other point,
• 22:09
  Speaker 6: when you ask about there is no justice, how does
• 22:15
  Speaker 6: it feel? There's no way for me to express that.
• 22:22
  Speaker 6: It's it's it's impossible. But her crimes obviously profoundly impacted
• 22:31
  Speaker 6: our families, but they also massively impacted the country at large.
• 22:37
  Speaker 6: And I and badly I feel that with regard to
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: CDCR and some of the institutions. Uh, how are how
• 22:47
  Speaker 6: our families feel are an afterthought? Victims are a collateral damage?
• 22:51
  Speaker 6: But now the impact that this release will have setting
• 22:56
  Speaker 6: a very dangerous, pernicious precedent.
• 22:59
  Speaker 12: Mhm.
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: I think it's a very important question to ask, how
• 23:04
  Speaker 6: does America feel about the release of Leslie ben Houghton.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we were talking about
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: the release of a mass killer, which is over more
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: than one body. I always question why Leslie vn Houghten
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: was not charged with the Sharon Tate murders as well.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: She was living with Manson and the Manson family at
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: the time of the Tate murders. Tate heavily pregnant, begging
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: for her life or her unborn child's life when she
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: was brutally murdered.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Van Auten was there when that was planned.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: In fact, she was angry, according to co defendants, that
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: she was not allowed to ride along and back to
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: lease Will. It's akin to a bank robbery where you
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: and I and Jackie planned the bank robbery, planned the
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: whole heist, but you and I are the ones that
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: go in the bank and I'm the one that shoots everybody.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Jackie is just as culpable as we are. And I've
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: never understood why Van Houghton was not charged with the
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Tape murders as well.
• 24:26
  Speaker 11: I think she could have been, absolutely because as you say,
• 24:29
  Speaker 11: it's felony murder, right, even if you're not actually there,
• 24:32
  Speaker 11: you were part of the planning. Charles Manson wasn't actually there,
• 24:37
  Speaker 11: so that tells you something. But I think the legal
• 24:40
  Speaker 11: reason is that her lawyers argued she didn't take a
• 24:44
  Speaker 11: substantial step, which of course, is the standard for conspiracy.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: In the last hours, Leslie van Houghton has walked free
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: from behind prison walls after murdering the Labbiancas and helping
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: to plan the sh Garant Tate murders. I want to
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: go to doctor Jan Gorniac, renowned medical examiner joining us
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: out of Clark County. That's Vegas, doctor Gorniac. It's a
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: real honor to have you on with us. Thank you
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: for being with us. We keep hearing von Hotten refer
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: to the fact that Rosemary was already dead when she
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Manhattan stabbed Rosemary. I don't believe that that's true. In
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: a post mortem autopsy, how can you tell whether wounds
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: were sustained post mortem after death.
• 25:34
  Speaker 15: So when I do an odutopsy, one of our jobs
• 25:37
  Speaker 15: is too obviously determine injuries whether they're anti mortem before
• 25:41
  Speaker 15: death or a post mortem after death. So in order
• 25:46
  Speaker 15: to determine that, we have to look at characteristics of
• 25:49
  Speaker 15: the wounds. So when a wound is sustained post mortem
• 25:52
  Speaker 15: after death, there is no swelling of the tissue, there
• 25:57
  Speaker 15: is no reading of the tissue we call erythema. So
• 26:02
  Speaker 15: and sometimes it looks dry and there might be minimal
• 26:06
  Speaker 15: hemorrhage within the within the tissue, because in order for
• 26:11
  Speaker 15: if it, if you're alive, when an injury is sustained,
• 26:14
  Speaker 15: your body's going to react to it. That's like bumping
• 26:17
  Speaker 15: your leg against the wall or door. Your body's going
• 26:20
  Speaker 15: to react to it and you're going to see a bruise,
• 26:23
  Speaker 15: or if you fall and cut yourself, it's going to
• 26:26
  Speaker 15: be swollen and it's going to be red. But when
• 26:29
  Speaker 15: a wound is sustained post mortem, that reaction doesn't happen.
• 26:34
  Speaker 15: So it's essentially quote unquote, a clean wound, no reddening,
• 26:39
  Speaker 15: no blood swelling, no obvious bleeding.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Correct does a gorniac? Could you describe what happened to
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Rosemary and Lino Lambianca?
• 26:53
  Speaker 15: So I was reading going back about the multiple stab wounds.
• 26:59
  Speaker 15: It's just and defensive defense wounds. So when you get
• 27:03
  Speaker 15: a defense wound, that means that you're grabbing for the
• 27:07
  Speaker 15: knife and then you get defense wounds on your hand.
• 27:10
  Speaker 15: Those are, for me, believe it or not, are the
• 27:12
  Speaker 15: worst injuries that I see. You know, even as a pathologist,
• 27:16
  Speaker 15: I get the willies sometimes and that's one of the
• 27:18
  Speaker 15: things that gives me the willies when I see the
• 27:21
  Speaker 15: defensive wounds, especially on the hands, and it's just you're
• 27:26
  Speaker 15: going to bleed out a lot of hemorrhage. But it's
• 27:29
  Speaker 15: not unfortunately, you know, it's sad to think about. It's
• 27:32
  Speaker 15: not a quick depth. So you're getting stabbed multiple times,
• 27:39
  Speaker 15: you're going to feel that you're going to be moving
• 27:42
  Speaker 15: and then what happens is you slowly bleed out you hemorrhage.
• 27:46
  Speaker 15: So it's not a quick depth, unfortunately, and you go
• 27:51
  Speaker 15: into shock and then you die. So it's it's the
• 27:56
  Speaker 15: worst cases that I do are multiple stab wom stab
• 27:59
  Speaker 15: wounds cases. And it was interesting to hear the description
• 28:04
  Speaker 15: of stabbing somebody. I've never heard somebody who stabbed somebody
• 28:09
  Speaker 15: else describe it like that. And ironically, I'm getting ready
• 28:13
  Speaker 15: to teach a course on Sunday on sharp force injuries,
• 28:17
  Speaker 15: and everybody asked, well, how much force does it take
• 28:20
  Speaker 15: to you know, stab somebody? And actually the skin is
• 28:24
  Speaker 15: the toughest part to get through. And so to hear
• 28:27
  Speaker 15: her compared to it's not like cutting meat. That's just
• 28:32
  Speaker 15: I've never heard that.
• 28:34
  Speaker 16: It's disgusting, it is, but it but she you know,
• 28:38
  Speaker 16: in that description, because like I, all I say is
• 28:42
  Speaker 16: the skin is the toughest part of the body to
• 28:45
  Speaker 16: get through. And then once you get past the skin,
• 28:48
  Speaker 16: the you know, depending on the sharpness of the knife,
• 28:52
  Speaker 16: the internal organs are easily punctured. But to hear it
• 28:57
  Speaker 16: that way, we're I had to use both hands and things.
• 28:59
  Speaker 16: I mean, that gave me a whole new appreciation when
• 29:02
  Speaker 16: I see victims with multiple stablings.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: What those victims endured, Doctor Gorniac is unthinkable. Rosemary la Bianca, wife, mother,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: She worked alongside her husband. They were in charge of
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: grocery store change owned them had worked their whole life.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Rosemary ends up dead, stabbed over forty times with a
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: pillow case over her head, strangled with a lamp cord,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: her seeing her husband murdered. Guys, take a listen to
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: hour cut nine. If you think that Leslie van Hatten
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: didn't know what she was doing, listen to this. And
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: by the way, mass murder certainly did not diminish her appetite.
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: Listen, I said, what about the finger prints?
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: I listen on the lampsheet and Katie having a challenged
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: a life month that is, so I went and they
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: just went the whole bathroom all over and everything I
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: had touched, and we did the kitchen and just sort
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: of all over, which is a whole fingerprint thing because
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: we hadn't worn any gloves. And then Katy takes when
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: I came out of Benjamin. Then we're taking a shower,
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: and then after that we were hungry, and so we
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: went and we took some cheese and milk out of
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: the refreierated and we took it with us.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: They went and raided the fridge like they're having a sleepover.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: They went back and he raised all.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Of their fingerprints that they could think of, one even
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: taking a shower, getting rid of evidence in the victim's home,
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: and then raiding their fridge for a midnight feast. It's
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: almost more than I can take in Joining me right
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: now is a forensic expert host of Shattered Souls, the
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: car Barn Murders, Sure University of Florida, Karen Smith. Karen,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: you and I have discussed in many cases where the perp,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: the killer is so unfazed by murder, they go drive
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: through McDonald's or Burger King. Here, they actually go raid
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: the dead victims fridge while the victims are lying there dead, they.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Go eat the food, take the food out.
• 31:27
  Speaker 7: Of the fridge right.
• 31:28
  Speaker 9: That speaks to awareness, It speaks to understanding of what
• 31:32
  Speaker 9: they've done. Not only did they read the refrigerator, take
• 31:35
  Speaker 9: cheese and milk, Leslie Van Houghton admitted that she went
• 31:38
  Speaker 9: into Rosemary Labianca's closet and took her clothes. They also
• 31:42
  Speaker 9: played with the dog. They wiped down the fingerprints from
• 31:46
  Speaker 9: the crime scene. This is not the actions of somebody
• 31:49
  Speaker 9: who was hypnotized or under the spell of somebody else
• 31:53
  Speaker 9: and did what they said. She knew exactly what she
• 31:57
  Speaker 9: was doing. And Nancy, we have heard a lot of
• 32:01
  Speaker 9: information from a lot of really incredible people today that
• 32:05
  Speaker 9: have piecemealed this together. But if I could, I just
• 32:08
  Speaker 9: want to do a quick walkthrough of this crime scene
• 32:11
  Speaker 9: because of how horrific it really was. You have words
• 32:14
  Speaker 9: in blood scrawled on the wall, you have two victims
• 32:17
  Speaker 9: on the floor. A crime scene like this would take
• 32:20
  Speaker 9: us multiple days today. Lino LaBianca, his hands were bound
• 32:24
  Speaker 9: behind his back with a leather cord.
• 32:26
  Speaker 6: He was helpless.
• 32:27
  Speaker 9: He was stabbed twelve times, then an additional seven times
• 32:31
  Speaker 9: with a carving fork. That fork was left in his abdomen.
• 32:35
  Speaker 9: The knife was left in his neck, embedded past the
• 32:39
  Speaker 9: hilt that was discovered by the Medical Examiner's office. The
• 32:42
  Speaker 9: investigators didn't see it because a pillowcase was over his
• 32:46
  Speaker 9: head and an electrical cord was wrapped around his neck.
• 32:48
  Speaker 9: In his mouth, he also had a sofa cushion over
• 32:51
  Speaker 9: his face. The word war had been carved into his abdomen,
• 32:55
  Speaker 9: and Lino LaBianca not only exanguinated blood to death, he
• 32:59
  Speaker 9: aspirated on a own vomit before he died. Rosemary LaBianca
• 33:04
  Speaker 9: she was stabbed forty one times to both the front
• 33:07
  Speaker 9: of her body in the back, so she was defenseless
• 33:09
  Speaker 9: and according to the police reports, she attempted to crawl away.
• 33:13
  Speaker 9: She also had a pillowcase over her head, a lamp
• 33:16
  Speaker 9: cord wrapped around her neck. One of the stab wounds
• 33:18
  Speaker 9: nearly severed her spinal cord, and as Rosemary attempted to
• 33:22
  Speaker 9: get away, Leslie van Houghton admitted that she and Patricia
• 33:26
  Speaker 9: Crenwinkle called out to text Watson he was busy in
• 33:29
  Speaker 9: the living room stabbing Lino. Van Houghton told Watson that
• 33:33
  Speaker 9: she couldn't get the knife to go into her body,
• 33:35
  Speaker 9: and then she said she had to use her full
• 33:37
  Speaker 9: body weight all of her pressure to get that knife
• 33:39
  Speaker 9: to go in, and she turned into an animal during
• 33:43
  Speaker 9: the murder. Now, later on during interviews, she said that
• 33:46
  Speaker 9: she very gingerly stabbed Rosemary. Now, I don't know how
• 33:50
  Speaker 9: you do that, when the five inch knife went into
• 33:53
  Speaker 9: her body multiple times, all the way to the hilt.
• 33:55
  Speaker 9: And her contention that Rosemary LaBianca was dead when she
• 33:59
  Speaker 9: plunged the knife to her body over and over and
• 34:02
  Speaker 9: over and over again, that is unsubstantiated. And I think
• 34:06
  Speaker 9: the medical examiner will agree with me because there's no
• 34:08
  Speaker 9: way to tell which stab wounds than Holton inflicted and
• 34:12
  Speaker 9: in what order they were done. There's no evidence regarding
• 34:14
  Speaker 9: the exact moment that Rosemary LaBianca died. So that is
• 34:17
  Speaker 9: a moot point. And it's just one more excuse by
• 34:21
  Speaker 9: Leslie Van Houghton to not take responsibility for the vicious
• 34:25
  Speaker 9: and cool murders of innocent people.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: To Ava Roosevelt, friends of victims over at Sharon Tates
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: and rowand Plansky's home had been invited over herself. When
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: you look back, Ava Roosevelt and realize how close you
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: came to being murdered by the Manson family cult members,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: what do you think.
• 34:51
  Speaker 7: Well, there is for me right now, there is a big,
• 34:56
  Speaker 7: bigger picture here in all of this, which is, will
• 35:00
  Speaker 7: the release of this murder open the floodgates to release
• 35:06
  Speaker 7: of Patricia Kranwin coll and Tex Watsuits because these two,
• 35:12
  Speaker 7: I believe that I'm correct, two remaining members of the
• 35:17
  Speaker 7: Watson family who were directly involved in murdering my friends,
• 35:24
  Speaker 7: my dear friends, Sharon Gibbie zoidek. I mean, we went
• 35:29
  Speaker 7: a long way, So what is going to happen to
• 35:32
  Speaker 7: these people? Are they going to wiggle out and start
• 35:37
  Speaker 7: a life of freedom, basically leaving all of us and
• 35:42
  Speaker 7: the nation the innocent then without any closure, So I
• 35:49
  Speaker 7: ask all of you, what do you think will happen
• 35:54
  Speaker 7: and an aftermath of what happened to Leslie?
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Anthony de Maria John as J. Sebring's nephew, director of J.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Sebring.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Cutting to the truth, Anthony, we have been told that
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: the Tate family is so upset, so emotionally torn up,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: they can't even speak to the release of Vanhattan. When
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: you hear the description of what happened to the victims,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: how do you respond?
• 36:31
  Speaker 6: You know, I have the honor and privilege to know
• 36:35
  Speaker 6: many of the family members, and I've been in contact
• 36:38
  Speaker 6: with many of them, all of them that I've met
• 36:41
  Speaker 6: through the parole hearings. And I'd be remiss if I
• 36:44
  Speaker 6: didn't state that I've talked to many of the Loveyanca
• 36:47
  Speaker 6: family and they many of them are so devastated that
• 36:56
  Speaker 6: it's paralyzing, and others are I think themselves, but I
• 37:02
  Speaker 6: feel that they're here with us in this conversation, and
• 37:07
  Speaker 6: certainly the Tate family, the Frakowski family, the Parent family,
• 37:11
  Speaker 6: Shay Hinman folder I forgive me if I forget any
• 37:19
  Speaker 6: any if I admit any other but you know, there
• 37:25
  Speaker 6: is outrage, and there is devastation, but there is also
• 37:31
  Speaker 6: love and we hold on to that love or.
• 37:37
  Speaker 12: Or are.
• 37:40
  Speaker 6: Our family members, and I am grateful for the opportunity
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: to express these thoughts, as difficult as they are.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Well, you have to.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: You have to keep doing it, Anthony, because you and
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: a few others are the only ones left that actually
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: are speaking for the crime victims, because clearly pardoner and
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: parole is not, the governor is not. Guys, I want
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: you to hear our cut twelve, the words of Leslie
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: vent houghten.
• 38:09
  Speaker 12: You really want to die?
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: I don't I don't want to, and I don't not
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: want to, and then would I'd love to get out
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: of this.
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: You know, I'd love to go back on the.
• 38:18
  Speaker 12: Street, Leslie, if you could turn the clock that and
• 38:24
  Speaker 12: go back that night that you ask Charlie to go
• 38:28
  Speaker 12: along with him? Who will kill the lamb beyond? Because
• 38:31
  Speaker 12: although you didn't know who was going to be killed?
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: Do what you do it again?
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: Yes?
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: I really I can't. I can't be sorry to.
• 38:36
  Speaker 7: What it done.
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: And like I said, I I had no control.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: How has this happened? Will News now be re elected?
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: What does this mean for other crime victims' families? We
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: wait as justice unfalls. Goodbye friend
• 39:00
  Speaker 7: One,