Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Tom Sheppard on the Nobility of Wilderness, Crossing the Sahara, and Overlanding the Deserts.

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Tom Sheppard on the Nobility of Wilderness, Crossing the Sahara, and Overlanding the Deserts. · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I'm your
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: host Scott Brady, and I have a very exciting guest
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: for today. Personally, I am incredibly honored to have Tom
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Shepherd with me on the podcast. Tom has been someone
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: that I have admired since the very first days as
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: an overland traveler. For me, I remember walking into the
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: land Rover dealership in Scottsdale and seeing this book that
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: said Vehicle Dependent Expedition Guide, and I remember my hands
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: nearly trembling as I was asking the service counter person
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: if it was actually for sale, and it was. And
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: I still have that book today and I have since
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: purchased all of his other volumes. We worked with Tom
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: on bringing the Vehicle Dependent Expedition Guide into the United States.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: His expeditions are considered some of the most effectively planned
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and executed in history. Some of these big ones were
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: done before GPS, before modern communication and navigation, so they
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: would use a sun compass, and they crossed the entire
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: length of the Sahara, all off track from coast to coast.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Tom Shepherd is also an incredible photographer. He has a
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: lot of passion for Northern Africa and has traveled there extensively,
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: and he's also had a wide range of vehicles, and
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: every single one of them he prepares in nearly the
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: same way, with a great deal of simplicity and minimalism
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: to his approach. There is a lot to learn from Tom.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: He's about to celebrate his ninetieth birthday. A huge happy
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: birthday to Tom. This was such a joy for me
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: to do. I'm so grateful that we had the chance
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: to sit down and talk with Tom Shepherd. And a
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: special thanks to Rocky Talkies for their support of this
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  Speaker 1: in the vehicle. Our team uses Rocky Talkies and we
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  Speaker 1: also use them recently at the Overland Expo. The next
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Overland Expo, stop into our booth and say hello and
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: check out the radius for yourself and as a listener
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: of the Overland Journal podcast. You can get ten percent
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: off a pair by going to Rockytalkie dot com forward
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: slash Overland Journal. Thanks again, Rocky Talking Tom. It's very
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: humbling for me to be sitting here with you, because
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: you're someone that I truly admire and I'm grateful that
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: we get to tell your story to the people that
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: listen to the Overland Journal podcast.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Reassuring actually to hear your reaction when you got the
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: book or when you first saw it, which it helps me.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: It filled me with wonder. Yeah, it truly did. From
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: the cover image. I remember the first image that I
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: saw that has stuck in my mind was it was
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: a photograph I believe it was of the range Rover
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: being craned onto a ship. Yeah, and I remember it
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: as if I saw it ten minutes ago, because again,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: it's those it's those kinds of experiences that you've had
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: that were all seeking for. We're seeking for this adventure.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the ranger with that broke the track rod. Actually, yeah, yeah,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: so a surprise in the store for me.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: So I'd like to start from from your military career.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: So you had a full career as a as a
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: fighter pilot and how long were you in the British
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Air Force.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: I was in the RAF for twenty five years. I
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: started off at Cranwell, which is very lucky to get
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: in there. That's the Royalle Force College where they trained
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: career officers and they came out to them and went
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: onto a fighter squadron and as a Cranwell graduate, they
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: tend to give you a series of challenging jobs anyway,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: so again you benefit from that. And then I went
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: into Scotland went onto the As well as being a pilot,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: I was also the what they called the sea flight Commander,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: which looked after the technical side as well, which it
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: brought my horizons quite a lot well.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: And I can see that that not only that that
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: discipline around being a pilot, but what you would have
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: gained for insights around planning and logistics in that in
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: that position of leadership, I suspect that that helped your
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: future expeditions.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: It did. In point of fact, when I was in Cyprus,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: that was the first thing that I applied myself to
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: was getting a sort of mobility plan. There were Beverly's
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: and Hastings aircraft, cargo aircraft and if we deployed anywhere,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: we would have to have X number of items of
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: tech call equipment and gun packs and all that kind
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: of stuff. And I made plans of these aircraft and
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: sure enough, I can't even remember why we went there.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Actually we deployed to Jordan, just over the road, you know,
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: from Cyprus. It wasn't exactly the dark side of the moon. Yeah,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: but we went there and suddenly, in the middle of
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: the night, you know, the flight commander came and said, hey,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: you've still got those drawings. I said, well, yeah, I have,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: and off we went and it worked.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: I guess The first expedition that I'd like to talk
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: about is one of the most notable ones that you've completed,
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: which was the first successful west to east crossing of
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: the entire Sahara from ocean to ocean. Yes, and what
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: inspired that trip.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: By that time I had done a number, a large
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: number of desert trips in the Sahara in particular. And
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: that's right, I remember now it's all coming back to me. Yes,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: some things do come back to you. And it was
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: some I can't remember the chap's name now, but the
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Frenchman who had gone into what they what he named
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: as the Mauritanian empty quarter. Okay, and that was sort
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: of like terror incognito really, and no one had done
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: been right across it, and I thought, hey, wouldn't it
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: be wouldn't it be great to go across there and
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: carry on? And then I was searching for some mean,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: you can't do that just for the hell of it.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: You know, it's a pretty expensive hobby. I thought, well,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: you know, what can we do that's useful? I can't
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: take all manner of people, universities and the World Geographical
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: Society and so on. And they came up or I
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: can't remember, have it arose now, But anyway, it turned
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: out that there hadn't been a complete coast to coast
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: gravity survey done before. And that was how I met
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: up with Jeff Renner, who was the scientist on the trip.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: As well as a great I mean, he was British
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Antarctic survey so he knew all about operating in remote area,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: teamwork and all that kind of stuff. But he was
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: immaculately thorough in what he did. And while we were
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: all buzzing about, you know, getting bogged or unbogged or
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: being cooked, or sorting out the water or whatever. Jeff
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: was there looking we used to pull his leg actually
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: because he's a gravity meter is a device of enormous value,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: frighteningly expensive. It came in in a shot proof vibration
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: proof box, makes sense. And when he put it on
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: the grid, he had to put it on the ground.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Then he had to look through and we used to
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: put his leg but he was looking through to the devil.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: But he went on and he got this. It was unique.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, he got recognition from the World Geographical Society.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: So that was how the scientific aspect of the trip came.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: Well, and that genuinely I think shifts from an overland
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: adventure to an expedition. Once you've either incorporated some degree
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: of scientific weight a trip, yeah, or you're providing some
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: medical support, you're doing some greater good than just being
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: like I do, which is I tend to most of
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: the time just be an adventurer mucking about it. No,
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: but it's it's genuine these expeditions that you've done because
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: they incorporated so many other things, like for example, you
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: worked with UNESCO on the Cave, the Cave Art and
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: the rock Art.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was after one of my trips to well
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: a number of my trips to to Libya, it occurred
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: to me that there were these cave paintings that are
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: all around the jebel Uwaynat, which is that we used
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: to call it NASA's corner. Because we're on our aircraft,
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: we couldn't go across eat it, so we flew around that.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: I used to get to to Sudan Khartoum. That mountain,
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: the jabbel Uwaynat and our Kenou were absolutely alive, I
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: mean literally alive, with cave painting, rock art, carvings and
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: that kind of thing all around the place. Incredible, And
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: what that really said to you about the history of
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: that place was the was indicated by the carvings themselves.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: There was one. There are lots of carvings of cattle,
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: long hauled cattle and giraffes, which is fascinating, which indicates
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: what it had been like in the past. I mean
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: when we went through there. When I went there on
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: my first visit in nineteen sixty and I did another
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: two visits after that, it was very barren. There was
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: a spring, there was still a spring there, and in fact,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: on the first, yes the first trip I went down there,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: there were actually some people living there. Interesting, so there
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: were some heaven knows how carving out a living equally,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: though it was on a traffic route from northern Sudan
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: into Libya, which were a lot of labor went that
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: way and the trucks went there, and there was a
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: customers post and guards and so on and so forth
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: on the corner.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: That makes sense. Yeah, looking back at that nineteen seventy
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: five Trans Sahara expedition, what were some of the key
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: learnings that you had, because that is such an ambitious undertaking.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Well, you're right, you know, there was some learning to
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: do and some preparation to do and what that involved.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: I thought it would be smart to do a reconnaissance,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: you know. I'd heard about the Mauritanian Empty Quarter and
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: it sounded a bit a bit of a challenge. This
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: was nineteen seventy three, now my first trip in the desert.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: I've been in nineteen sixty with the Royal Levels Regiment.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: That was my very first trip. And the Libyan sand
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: Sea was a nice sand sea because the sand was
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: friendly in as much as it wasn't so soft and
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: fine and not so sort of wind quite as window well,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: it was wind formed, but not wind blown, it behooved.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Having heard what Mauritania was like, I thought we were
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: better going and take a sniff at this. And the
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: question of the long range. You know, how can you
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: carry eight hundred miles? Have you got enough fuel to
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: do that? What vehicles were going to use? A nice
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: agile vehicle like the range rover would go there like
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: a bunny rabit, you know, but it would run out
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: of fuel about a third of the way across. A
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: four ton truck would carry the load, but it was
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: a bit of the powerweight ratue wasn't wasn't up to it.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: So basically what we did in nineteen in seventy three,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: I might add I got and I couldn't have done
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: this without the sponsorship of the RAL. The RAF recognized
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: the benefits to servicemen per se of organizing expeditions in
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: challenging conditions such as as the desert and logistically challenging
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: conditions and that kind of thing. So to cut a
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: long story, I managed to persuade the ari A to
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: learn to obtain a Bedford four ton truck so that
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: we could use as comparison. A comparison B was the
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: one ten land Rover which was kind of one ton, no, no,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: about three quarter ton, but all the loaders there were
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: the back axle. Then there was the range Rover, which
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: would go there a lot like a bunny rabbit, but
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: it wouldn't carry the fuel. So enter stage left Aria
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Hercules aircraft into which we would cram these vehicles. Oh
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: no you won't, said the man. Why not, I said,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: because they weren't fit. So what we had to do
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: then was to take the wheels off the land rover,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: put the land rover on onto the top correction start,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: put the landover on top of the Bedford truck, then
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: take the wheels off to lower it down so it
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: didn't hit the roof, and then take the Bedford truck
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: with the land Rover in and then the range Rover
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: in behind that off we want, and we landed at
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: a place called Iraq, where there Mauritanianus lovely people, and
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: no less so were their soldiers and John Darms and
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: all the rest of it. So we landed one day
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: at Iraq. The message, of course, hadn't actually got through
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: we were coming. So here we are a foreign invading force,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: complete with s and all, and these lovely Mauritanian soldiers
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: coming up and saying, hey, I'm coming. So there was
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: a certain amount of negotiation went on. But the kind
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: of long story we got about, I just posed two
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: hundred miles into the empty quarter, not without some problems,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: of course, inevitably the range and galloping our head, you know,
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: on deflated tires and so on, the land rover hacking it,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: but with certain problems due to the load distribution and
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: still three quarters of a ton not taking enough fuel
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: and the bed carrying you know, a million jerry cans
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: and the food in the kitchen and so on and
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: so forth, that managing it in four wheel drive, but
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: having to be toad every now and then tandem toad
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: ranger over at the front, land rover Bedford sure altogether
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: whoomp and then out out it coming. So we had
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: several of those, and that gave me a very good
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: idea of what what the terrain was going to be like,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: and formed my idea then as to the kind of
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: vehicles that we needed.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: And just happens to be that land Rover released a
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: new vehicle.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Just happened. I couldn't believe my luck. I heard about that,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: because the you know, we looked at looked at the
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: one turn land rover and it isn't going to do it,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: and the and the the powerway ratio on the Bedford
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: wasn't wasn't any But just at that time the FBID
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Fighting Vehicles Research and Development Unit had passed for production.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: The forward Control land Rover one one one oh one,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: which being built for air dropping, was very lightweight. The
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: cockpit was an ergonomic catastrophe because you know, there was
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: about fifty ways you could you could cut yourself or
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: bruise your leg or something. That the steering it was
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: about this, but it did the job. And the main payload,
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: which comprised four forty five gallon drums at four hundred
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: meters drums of fuel could sit right in the middle
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: between the front axle and the rear transfer ideal weight distribution,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: for sure, no problem at all, strapped down and so
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: on and so forth.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: So vights were they were they V eights, Yes, they.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Were V eight engines sitting like there to the driver,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: sure and warming him appropriately in the sun. And there
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: was either by then further stripping it down, taking the
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: top off, taking the windscreen off, and all that kind
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: of thing. We could mount the sun compass, which is
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: what we were using, was the principal navigation aid. Mount
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: the sun gopas right there free to get the sun
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: for the shadow for the gnomon and navigate with and
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: for the driver to see. So it was an ideal setup.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: For those that are watching on YouTube, you'll see these
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: images that we were able to get from Tom that
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: showed the sun compass, which this would have all been
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: pre GPS. Did you also use any celestial navigation?
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, we did. That was the thing. I had a
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: great great friend of mine, Phil May, who was then
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: a corporal in the army, British Army down in Salisbury,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: and he taught navigation. Oh wow, two people and he
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: was as bright as a button, very very sharp indeed,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: and a really nice guy, very calm, very proficient. We
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: had him as the overseer on the astro shops. Star shots.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: You would have to have at least three star three
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: star shots to get a fit now as often as not.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: I mean when on my subsequent trip, I was if
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: you got one or two of them cocked up something
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: like that, you have to do another one. You spent
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: all night doing them. And I was taking on my
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: later trip in seventy eight. I was doing being less
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: proficient than Phil. I was doing anything up to five
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: or six star shots to try and get a decent cockpat.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: The intersection lines of the three position lines had to
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: make a small top hat, as we call it.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Sure, the sun compass would essentially give you a bearing,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: which is what you were primarily navigating.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. With the ingenuity of the sun compass
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: is actually beyond praise the coals. I don't know who.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know very much about mister Coles, but he
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: deserves to go down in history. All the instructions were
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: on the face of the compass. If you give it
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: to a chimpanzee, and he said, oh, yeah, I don't
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: know the time of year, time of day, suntime, greenwich,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: meantime kind of thing. You set it all, set it
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: up all on the on the face of the sun compass,
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Slide the gnome one up and down, move it round
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: to the heading you wanted. Drive with the compass on
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: the on the movable reference item, and there you are.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: You had to be careful that every fifteen minutes as
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: the sun went round, you had to change so in
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: that technically you were actually and not going in the
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: straight line. You were going in a series of shallow arcs, sure,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: but you were getting there and it was dead.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Accurate, incredible and to I think about today the luxuries
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: that we have for travel. I can navigate by GPS,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: I can have all of the I showed you this
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: morning on guy A GPS, all these layers of.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Maps, no law against it.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's just it's it is fascinating to me.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: It just shows you know how much more proficient you
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: had to be because you were going into I mean
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: there was not even any satellite communication. You would have
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: probably UHF radios would be the extent.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a long way radio action. We had
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: to look abound areals and everything else. And we had
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: to chat there Kevin who could do the Morse code
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: and ordered already professional and everything else. So we kept
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: in touch with the people at home there.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: When you finished that trip, what were the couple of
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: either modifications to the vehicle or equipment that you brought
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: along that you thought, this is very special, I'm going
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: to use it from now on.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Is there anything It reaffirmed my faith? My faith in
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: the sun compass. It proved Why wouldn't it The validity
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: of having sound astro shots as backup. It emphasized the
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: fact that you couldn't get good astro shots if there
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: was class. So I had to level bank on most things. Yeah,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: but navigation wise, I mean again, to do the astroshot.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: You had a pack of books about about that deep
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: and that that long old tables, you know, the tables.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: The mind boggles as to who wrote the books or
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: broke in inverted commas.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Impressive.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Somebody had to do with the mathematics for all that.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Truly impressive. And then you think about Shackleton and his
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: crew in this tiny story. Oh, it's right, going across
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: the ocean somehow taking these these headaches.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: That's right, cold hands, and they climatic climatic problems they
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: had were about four times what we had, truly sure,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: you know we had very high temperatures. But it was Liverpool.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: You could work the.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Men who and women who've come before us, and what
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: they've accomplished is just truly untrived. So you finished this
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: very notable expedition and it received high praise. It was
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: even used in Rolex advertisements, and it was you know,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: it was, it was documented well.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Royal Geographical Society gave me the Ness Award, which I
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: was really quite quite about team event, but you know,
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: they gave it to me.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: But yeah, and then there was a video that came
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: out on that. Yeah, I've seen it. It's quite good.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: As well as leading the trip, I was also the
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: chief cinematographer, so I had to went with with Jeff
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: down to again it was an army unit down in
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: the south of England, to learn the tenets of of
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: shooting films and cutaways and zoom shots and you know,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: trying to get things in perspective and above all in
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: the desert, keeping the cameras clean so difficult, and keeping
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: the sand out. I was I was very pleased to
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: note that Anglia Television as it was then, when they
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: got the when they got the film, they said, we
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: can't believe how clean this is. And I would spend
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: actually about an hour in the in the afternoon with
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: a with a squash with a blowing sand off the
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: lenses and making sure that and then we had to
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: keep the film cool. The film stock had to be
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: kept cool, and I mean it was exposed. He had
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: to be kept cool, and then he had to be
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: mailed out of the country. The first thing was after
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: the Empty Quarter crossing when we got down to Carno.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: We put a whole stack of film in the post
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: and prayed that it would and everything else.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: And it did.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: It did, it got through. You can imagine the customs people,
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: you know, but it got through unbelievable. And we shot
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: some more footage along the way and mailed that back
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: from Cartoon and again from Cairo because we had to
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: get the inevitable shot by the pyramids.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: You know, it's a wonderful film and I have found
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: it a few times on on YouTube.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: It's really yeah.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Well, And speaking of cinematography and photography, one of the
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: things that the initial impression is, of course being impressed
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: by your by your CV, by your expeditions. But the
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: more that I've gotten to know your content, especially for
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: overland journal, it's the it's the stunning images that you've captured.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: And you have a very unique way of setting the
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: vehicle as a as a minor character in a very
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: beautiful place. So it's this sense of place that you've
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: captured in your imagery that I find so exceptional. Is
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: photography one of your great loves?
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: It certainly is absolutely Yeah, Jonathan Hanson, whom I believe
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: you know, and yeah, I think most people in the
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: expedition world knows. Yeah, he's always pulling my leg. I
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: got this thing about wide angle lenses, and I've just
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: got an eight millimeter sam Yang lens which you know,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: take you can take a picture of the back of
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: your head. Just about what this thing. But the optics
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: are superb and it does give you a truly dynamic
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: and inspiring new view things that you would not have
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: looked twice at. You know, take it to a wide
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: angle a fish eye lens and say, hey, look at that. Yeah,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: quite you know, stop it down to F twenty two
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: and get the sun sparkle from the sun and all
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: the rest, so you can include the sun in the shot.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Because heavens our whole life is influenced by the sun.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Why not put it in the shot. Photography is very
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: much my thing, Yeah, very much my thing.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Some of your books that you've produced that that maybe
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: people don't even know about is like, for example, Quiet
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: for a Tuesday, Yes, which is just a it's a
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: beautiful volume and a great title. And then the other
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: one is the Nobility of Wilderness. Yes, we just spent
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: some time looking at some photos on your on your
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: computer from that and they're just beautiful. Truly.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I must admit it. You can't take a good
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: photograph unless you're inspired by the subject. And if you
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: have also got the camera that you really chime with
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: technically and physically and functionally, then you know you won't
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: get anywhere. But I just said, it's difficult not to
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: be inspired by the desert and the photography, particularly with
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: the light you get there with the sun when the
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: sun is There's one shot I took with a fish
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: eye lens and it's deliberately pointed up. No, it wasn't
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: a fish eye lends. It with a very wide angle lens,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: very wide angle lens. It is pointed up so the
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: horizon is curved. There's one vehicle there the sky. There's
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: a hellow ingradient on the sky going from pale blue
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: right up to dark blue. And then the sun is
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: in the shot, and that actually encapsulates really in a
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: harsh way, the you know, the other angle on the desert,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: which is that it you don't fool with that kind
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: of thing, and it really gets the message across.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: It does, and your images they speak to the grandeur
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: of Algeria and Tunisia and Libya, with these places that
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: you've traveled and so few people have been able to experience.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: My total time in Algeria was minutes because I had
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: accidentally crossed the border. So I would love to go back,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: and I would love to spend the time like you
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: have there.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: It's terribly sad the situation in Algeria. It really is.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, the scenery there is if you forgive the
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: expression is to die for it is you hope you
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: wouldn't put it is just in a class by itself,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: gigantic rock outcrops that you get all smoothed over the mind.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: You look at it, the mind boggles. You think, what
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: is the temperature gradient of that after three months of
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: high summer? Sure, what are the thermal stresses in it?
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: And you can see the thermal stresses they've they've peeled away,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: and you get exfoliation at the top that the outer
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: layer cracks away and it slides down to the bottom
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: and you get all this detritus around it around the
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: bottom there, but you've still got this enormous rock outcrop there.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Algeria is in a class by itself.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: What an incredible place truly.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Again, and it isn't all really hot and hot and unbearable,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: because if you go down to taman Rasset, for example,
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: you're up in the Hogar mountains and the scenery is
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: just spectacular and the temperature at five thousand feet, you know,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: is very lovely. Yeah, very tol a little monastery there
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: up the road from Taman Rascid and you climb up,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: and that the monks there must have really enjoyed themselves,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: I think, I mean, what a place to be.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: One of the questions that I really wanted to ask you,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: is that in all of these journeys that you've done,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: this incredible career of travel, how has that changed you
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: as a person.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure that it has changed me as much
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: has reaffirmed me, which I mean. I think it all
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: started when I was about ten years old. My father
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: was a tea planter up in the top right hand
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: corner of India. We came back in nineteen forty six
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: after a partition and on the train from Calcutta to Bombay.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: It's a long old journey and overnight journey there and
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: I woke up at ten years old, woke up about
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: five or five o'clock in the morning. The rest of
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: the family were asleep, and I looked out of the window.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: We were in the desert at that time, and that
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: really did it. That really did it for me. It
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: mailed it and it's been the same ever since. I think.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, the deserts can do that for us.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the space, the cleanliness. I mean, there's a line
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: in Lawrence of Arabia where an an inspirational film, where
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Lawrence says, God, I love this place, and he really
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: got it when he's also he's only on his camel, singing,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: singing on his camel and echoing off the off the
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: mountains in a in Akaba, it's it's like nowhere else
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: actually where The Algerians I think, have got to be
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: careful how they handle it. You know, I don't want
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: to sound exclusive or anything, but you don't want how
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: can I put this tact for you know, I can't
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: put it tact. You don't want a noisy rabble going
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: into into the into the desert and leaning litter. You
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: want people who really appreciate the beauty of the place,
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: respected and respecting.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it seems like that those formative experiences that
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: we have in our youth and for you you were
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: able to do what you were meant to do.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as I say that was that was the impression
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: formed on that train coming out from the east of Bombay,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: and it stayed with me ever since. And I flew
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: some transport Coroman as a Supernumery pilot. Initially, you know,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: flying over the desert and you look down and that
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: is absolutely tear jerking, it really is. You see the
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: dawn coming up and the long shadows cast by the
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: dunes and everything. And the first time I flew over
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: jebel uwayna At at NASA's corner, that mountain on the
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: bot there, really it really, it reduced me to tears.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: It really was beautiful, absolutely beautiful.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: And a special thanks to on X off Road for
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: helping to support this week's podcast. Going further on your
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: adventures is about having the right tools. The on X
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: off Road apps Intuitive maps make it easy to find
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: trails and disperse camping, and their offline maps give you
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: full GPS navigation capability without cell coverage. I'm also really
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: excited about their new route builder for planning and sharing
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: custom trips. It's got a snap to trail tool where
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: you can just drop points where you want to go,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: and a route automatically connects the closest road or trail.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: You could build, save and add routes to folders and
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: share your entire trip with your buddies. You can find
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: out more information on xmaps dot com. You can also
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: find their apps in the Apple Store or whatever other
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: device that you use. Thanks again on x You've had
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: the opportunity to drive many different vehicles and which you know,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: everything from these original range rovers to forward controls, to
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: defenders and g Wagons and everything else. Which one was
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: your favorite? Not the one that necessarily worked the best,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: but the one that you just loved?
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Oh? I think unquestionably the g Wagon. When I got
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: my g Wagon, which would be around two thousand. Year
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: two thousand, they were making the g Wagon four six
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: one as a van, so it got this immaculately conceived
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: drive line, you know, which was a lockable front desk,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: lockable back difference change on the move. Please God, make
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: every vehicle capable of doing that. You could change on
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: the move from low range to high range essential, we know,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: getting out of really soft sand and you cannot then
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: stop to fiddle about with gear levers, so it had
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: all the drive line functionality that you needed. Plus it
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: was a van and it would carry a ton and
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: a bit. That I think tops the list coming up
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: remarkably close. I'm just thinking of that original Ranger. That
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: original range Over I had was a development vehicle. We've
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: got to give it some some space, like broken track
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: rods and and think oh and the fuel pump went,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: and oh my god, yeah, and I'm told you, but
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: that that had potential again sadly like the g WAG,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: and it's gone down on the money grubbing route of
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: producing a overspecified luxury vehicle for people who never even
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: dare go off road. But that range Rover had had
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: the potential to be to be a winner, but it wasn't.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: The next one down, I would say that the next
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: honest vehicle, surprisingly for many people listening to this, is
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: the Jeep Renegade trail Hawk two liter diesel. A very
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: modest looking vehicle. It looks like an ordinary sort of
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: school run wagon. But my word, the only thing it
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: lacks is great. It could do with a bit more
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: ground clearance, but the gem of that is and the
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: understated and unrewarded and unrecognized is the z automatic transmission.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: It's got a transverse engine, so yeah, got very little
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: in the way of space. I went round the g
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Wagon factory and there were the chassis there being being
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: laid out and they said this is one of the
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: new sevenths to the seven speed transmission was about this long,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: and I thought wow, and it was practically colliding with
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: the rear action. What they've done in the in the
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: renegade is to produced a nine speed gearbox twelve inches
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: y and you think that is impossible. This is ZEDF.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Nobody ever says, hey, ZF terrific they should do. They
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: should haul up the flower. That is a good transmiss Yeah,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: because it is absolutely outstanding. Yeah, there wasn't an initial
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: production problem when they had to transfer for numbers, had
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: to transfer production to a USA because it didn't go
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: right to start with. But the basic design is there
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: as produced by zed F, and then they got the
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: production up up to it.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: And then the tracks control and all of that works
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: quite well.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: It does. It's got a diff flock, hasn't a front difflock,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: but it's got a locking disc in the middle. In effect,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: it is an eight speed use of range of gears
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: in point of at more like seven because you come
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: out of the garage and one hundred yards down the
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: road each in third gear. It starts off in second.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: First is kept for high days and holidays and sand.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: That's that deep sure, And you can lock the rear
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: diff you can go into full time form. It will
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: revert to four x two all on its own. It's
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: where everything is selectable, beautifully ergonomically placed and written and
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: laid out.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Oh that's wonderful praise for the vehicle. I like them,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: and they're quite space efficient. They're a little box. Oh yeah,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: a little box with wheels.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. I've taken a back set
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: out of mine and when I took it to Algeria,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: I took the back seed out and I did a
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: fairly comprehensive platform mod inside four Jerry cans of fuel,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: two Jerry cans of water, a whole lot of storage
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: little things, cupboards that lift up, and all the rest
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: of it. And I can sleep in it as well.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: In the UK, when it's cold, I can put the
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: passenger seat forward and I can put a sleeping bag inside.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: And even when it's cold outside, you just cracked the
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: windows down a little bit again. Beautiful, perfect, beautiful.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: The thing that I remember about the g Wagon the
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: last time that I was here was how minimal the
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: modifications were to it. You had things that you had
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: learned over forty years that worked in the desert, and
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: I think it's helpful to kind of work through some
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: of those things. I remember. One of the things that
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: stood out to me was you did have a backup battery,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: but it was connected with a manual switching separator. What's
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: your motivation or what inspired you to go about it
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: that way?
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: I can't clearly remember. It will probably have been the
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: fact that I didn't have the sensitive equipment sure required
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: to know when to switch from the main battery to
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: the backup battery. Yeah.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: It was so simple and reliable. It was just behind
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: the driver's seat.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, it's right. I'm trying to remember what
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: what was running off it. A lot of things. Oh
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: that's what the interior lighting, Yeah, and I think your
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: GPS ran now that's right. Yeah, that's right, the NA
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: and the interior lighting.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: And then you had it and then you had this
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: other very clever roof mounted you know, kind of ventilation system. Yeah,
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: that you installed on the roof and it just would
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: kind of ram air into the cabin.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: That's right, very and I've done it and we've got
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: pictures of that. I also I did initially on a
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: land Rover nineteen inch land Rover, just a hood. Basically
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: I was using the air that had to hit this
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: very steep wind screen and go up the wind screen
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: and that's all it had to do, so you didn't
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: you never got rain going into it. But so the
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: intake was actually horizontal like that, so the air went
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: in there and then a couple of eyeball things in
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: no power, no fan, no nothing, and it's fantastic.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very simple. And then when you camp in the desert.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know if this is something that you still do,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: but in some of your photographs it shows you sleeping
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: on a cot. Is that your preference?
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah, Well, practical terms, you couldn't sleep in the
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: vehicle because it was full of Jerry cans and things
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: like that. I was loath to clobber up the roof
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: with the heavy drag inducing rooftop tents and things like
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: that from which you couldn't see anyway. Yeah, sure, the
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: joy of sitting on a cot a camp bed only
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: about that far off the ground is that you could
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: turn over. I always slept with my feet facing south, okay,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: so I would find that the constellations went over like this,
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: so I could tell I could wake up in that
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: I didn't need to look at my watch. I knew
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: where the plow was or some of the other constellations.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Like I said, oh yeah, it's about and I've got
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: another couple of hours in absolute magic. And to just
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: open your eyes and see the stars, you know, it's
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: a shame to close your eyes actually, and in the
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: moon moonlight, of course, it was just unbelievable. You know.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Those are the rewards of not locking yourself away in
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: a tenter in the vehicle. Yeah, and the desert really
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: lends itself well. One of the things that I do
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: like about sleeping out under the stars is on the
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: occasion that you get a little bit of brain, you
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: hear that it's amazing how we're still through evolution. We
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: know that sound, that little pitter pattern, absolutely right, and
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: we wake up quite easily from that.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's right. Yeah.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Special.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: In fact, one time on the trip with the range
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: rover and the trailer, which was logistically and practically challenging,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: shall we say, it was so windy one I couldn't
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: sleep on the ground because I was part of being
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: part of a sand dune. So I slept. I perched
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: my mattress, strapped my mattress to the top of the trailer,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: chuckling all the time. I said, this could not get
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: any worse. I slept on top of the trailer on
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: the mattress, and then halfway through the night. I don't believe.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: But having said that, even I've slept out in the
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: UK in you know temperate zones unquote, where you're allarble
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: to get rain anyway, and you there's you know, a
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: waterproof sleeping bag you can get into sure, and it's fine,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: you know, you just button it down and you go
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: right away.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: But the next thing that I was hoping to talk
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: about was the Vehicle Dependent Expedition Guide. You're on what edition? Now?
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Six editions?
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Well, no, well it's the sixth edition sort of. I
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: suppose really it's probably the seventh, but it is called
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: edition five. Ah, because I made some very small additions
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: to take care of issues with the garment. Careful, as
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: I say this, Garmin have equipment which we'd had given trouble,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: and I wanted to straighten things out because the trouble
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: looked worse than it was if you could identify what
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: was giving trouble, and that was completely separate from the
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: accuracy of the navigation, which is the important bit. So
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: my message was, you know, it's fine, it's working off
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: satellites up there, which are absolutely spot on. But some
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: of the on board equipment inevitably is not so expensively
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: engineered as a satellite is, and you've got a bit
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: that matters. So I wanted to incorporate that in the thing,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: and also a glancing blow I mean, very very early days. Yeah,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: but I had to mention that the Rivia and electric pickup,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: which at the time was and that was what about
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: nine months ago now at the time was the only
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: sort of sensible they Rivian seemed to have addressed the
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: right things, but there's still heavy And my paviat was,
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: what about the tires and the big heavy vehicle. Okay,
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: it's got the powerweight ratio, but has he got the
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: tires the tires? Don't you have caught out? Now it
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: may well be that mister Rivian is saying, yeah, I
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: couldn't agree more, and I wouldn't mind some nine hundred
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: and sixteen's on this rather than seven fifties. But nevertheless
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: it's plus. Of course you can't get take fairy cans
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: with another vehicle.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's limitations to it. Having driven the Rivian for
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: many months, it's oh really it's exceptional. It would it
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: would give you a laugh.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: For yeah, so fresh thinking they really, I'd be very
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: interested in your view.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very special vehicle and we took it.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: We took a Rivian suv to the most remote point
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: that you can travel to on a road in North
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: America and it had just enough range to do that.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: And they really are quite capable to your point, though,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: the sand would be its nemesis because because other way
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: they're they're almost nine pounds and it's a twenty inch wheel,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: so you can only air them down so far.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, with a thin tire on it. That's
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: the thing. They want bigger wheel launches, and the wheel
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: and tire industry needs to catch up with this issue.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: If they're going to go, which they will all have to.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: They're going to have to address you know, off road
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: vehicles with the elect When you say you went to
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: the extreme range. Were you a nervous wreck when you
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: were getting their home?
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: You know, it's range anxiety. It's a thing you really
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: because there's not an easy way to solve it. No,
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: you know, with an internal combustion vehicle, you can even
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: stick your thumb out and maybe that a rancher comes
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: by that has some extra fuel, or or you can
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: take a jerry can and go into the town and
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: come back with fuel. With the electric vehicle, it requires
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: a very specialized solution that has.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: To be Yeah, what sort of range were you on
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: that trip?
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: We did almost two hundred miles of off road driving
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: to hundred bounds. No, it was, it was one hundred
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: out and then we took a slightly different route to
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: go out. The one advantage that the electric vehicles have
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: that's really interesting is its ability to regen, so anytime
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: you're going downhill, you're actually getting energy back into battery,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: which is quite interesting. It's something that an internal combustion
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: vehicle can't do. Of course, the consumption show down, but
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: you're still the engine still purring along and it's not
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: putting power back into the vehicle.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: But is that not just a question of putting back
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: what you lost going up the.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: Hill pretty much. Yeah, and of course there's some some
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: overall loss just because it does take a lot more
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: energy to go uphill than the region can provide showdown. Sure,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: but it's a it's a new technology and it's fascinating.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's not going to be it's not going
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: to be the solution across the Sahara yet. Maybe someday,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: but not yet.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Everybody writes about that we're waiting for the battery breakthrough. Yeah,
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: and I think that that's really to get the weight down,
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: and they get them very much better than they were.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: They really are, they really are. They keep getting more
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: and more refined around that for sure.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that it's been fun to watch the
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Vehicle Dependent Expedition Guide continue to get updated because the
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: first volume was so significant and substantial that a lot
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: of times those kinds of books never get kept up
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: to date, whereas between you and Jonathan's help, you've been
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: able to keep for those that are listening. Jonathan Hanson,
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: who's involved with the Overland Expo and seven P International,
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: he helps.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: Absolutely with valuable help there and a solid perspective on
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: some of the things that I'm saying.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: He's very accomplished.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Hey Jonathan, what do you think he says he's very
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: tact Oh yeah, of.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Course he's a He's a true gentleman and a great
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: ambassador for what we love to do.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: So Jonathan is included in some of the newer volumes
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: of the book.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, indeed. So.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I find is so interesting
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: about the book is that you do go into a
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: lot of detail around the supporting equipment, so clothing, cooking, sleeping, shipping,
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: You go into all of these supportive logistical components of
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: a vehicle based travel. So those that are listening, I
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: would highly encourage that you go It's Desert Winds dot
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: com all right, and take a look at the book.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: I think Jonathan and Roseannes might still have some copies available.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: I was particularly pleased, Actually We've got to be carried away.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: Actually I spent a time in the Air Force as
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: a test spilot, and alongside the arrangements at Farndra was
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: aeromed center for the RAF, and one got terribly analytical
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: about everything there and about clothing and for pilots and
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: so on, and say, well that caused me to rather
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: go to town on the clothing side of things, and
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: I was very pleased. I wondered if I'd ever done it. Actually,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: I'm very pleased there to hear from somebody in the
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: clothing industry who said, hey, look this, yeah, this is
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: this is okay.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: Well it helped. I think it helped me and I
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: think many others, you know, inform a good baseline of
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: decision making around equipment. The other thing that I really
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: like about your vehicle dependent Expedition Guide is it shows
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: mostly stock vehicles accomplishing these significant feats, so it reminds
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: people that you don't really need to, nor should you
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: heavily modify a vehicle for long expeditions. Has that been
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: your experience, you want to avoid heavy modifications.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: The manufacturers have a problem on their hands, like the
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: new land Rovers, for example, when I heard it was
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: coming out, I almost ordered one blind, but when I
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: saw it, oh my lord, you know it's about twenty
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: percent bigger than I would want. Isn't ideal for well,
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: it'll do an expedition, but it doesn't have a front
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: disc law. And you got to be realistic and say, well,
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: the guys who are playing the bills for this thing
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: at the factory, inputting in all the design work, production equipment, everything.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: They've got to get that money back, So they've got
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: to sell a lot of these things, so they've got
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: to sell to a lot of people, not just the
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: expedition people. So things like that have rather lowered its
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: expedition capability, I think. But to answer your question about modifications,
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: I think in general, any kind of long range or
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: even medium range expedition, you're talking about taking out the
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: backseats and using that for cargo, unless it's very short range. Now,
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: also there is there are if you're not strapped for payload,
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: if you're not really pushed for payload or up to
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: your neck in jerry cans of fuel and everything, you've
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: probably got the payload to have a roof tent or
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: something like that. And in the so called temperate zones
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: you could have a roof tent and get into it
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: and you're a you're out of the way of insects,
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: snakes and that kind of stuff, and you're protected from
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: the rain and that kind of plus you can peep out.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: You know, it's not very nice out there, So yeah,
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: it's kind of horses for of course, anything long range,
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: I would say, yes, you have to do modifications. Anything
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: short range or medium range. You could probably add accessories,
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: provided they're not too heavy. I have a thing about
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: external add ons, you know, being realistic about it and
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: people with families and that kind of thing. Then yeah,
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: a roof turn is very provided again the weather is
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: not too windy. You see these pictures and advertisements on
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: the back of magazines and there's people there. We know
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: that they've got the vehicle with the bedroom upstairs, and
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: there's a huge awning and I think, you know, if
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: the wind goes about five knots, a whole lot is
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: going to finish off us with you in it maybe,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: which happened to me in the desert with my good
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: friend's death. It was very warm, indeed, it was about
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: forty four centigrade but dry, so it wasn't as bad
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: as it sounded. But we thought, oh well, I think
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: we'll we'll we're hell, are we going to camp tonight?
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: And we let's camp up on that hill there. So
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: he camped up on the hill to catch the breeze. Yeah. Sure,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: as we said before, before you could say boo, there
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: was a whirling, whirling whirlwind coming up which took we
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: we unloaded at a lot of kids at that said,
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: which then the wind then distributed over the surrounding country side.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean these adverts are all very well, but
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: what about when the wind blows.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: No things, conditions can change very equally.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right, which is why a.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Lot of times sleeping inside the vehicle is your best choice.
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: That's room, Yeah, yeah, room. I had a Suzuki Jimney.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, those were fun.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: What a sweetie, what a little sweety. I mean it
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: looks like son of gea wagon the look of it.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: It's an awful shame. It came to the UK and
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: I thought I would have again, I would have bought one. Unfortunately,
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: the petrol version didn't accord with our emission laws and
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: that kind of And also the gearbox, the automatic gearbox
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: wasn't just the top of the top of the range
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: there it was nominally four, It was more like three,
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: which in practice turned it out like if they put
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: a really economical low emissions engine in it and a
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: decent a z F gearbox, that would have been the
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: catch with down. The thing about it was small as
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: it was, you could sleep in it, no problem, at
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: why because the seat both seats, but certainly the passenger
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: seat back fold backwards not forwards, sure, which I had
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: to do. In the jeep you had the back goes forward,
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: so you're actually sleeping at an angle like that in
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: the In the gymney it goes towards the back of
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: the vehicle, so you can sleep on it. And it's
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: long and off to take a six foot up no
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: problem at all, fantastic, and you've got all this light
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: around you. Just crack the windows down about that much.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: Get Yeah, so good, absolute gem of a vehicle that one.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: So for someone that is new to overland travel, what
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: would be a couple pieces of advice that you would
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: give them, someone that was getting ready to start their
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: own journey, like you.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: Have, know what you don't know? Yeah, don't be afraid
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: to ask, don't be afraid to be persistent in getting
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: decent explanations about things. Above all, have an eye for detail.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: On if someone accuses you of being a granny or
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: a nitpicker, say that's fine, that's what it's about, and
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: it'll get you home because it's the detail that really counts.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: Absolutely No, that's great advice, Tom Things. Yeah, right, you
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: still have the jeep? Yes, and have you put any
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: thought to your next adventure that you'd like to do.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: It's difficult, as I say, politically, where can you go?
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: But I want to go. Sure, I would love to
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: go back to Algeria. But it just is not for
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: various reasons.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: But you know it doesn't work.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: To do with here and prevailing circumstances that it's not
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: going to happen, I don't think. But in the meantime,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: I've got it. I admire the engineering and the humble
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: elegance of the design round headline. Remember round headline what
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: a gym, which sort of is like saying, you know,
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: we're not carried away stuff.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Tom. Thank you so much for taking the time with
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: me today. It's been an absolute joy to hear about
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: your adventures, to share your story with our audience. I
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: would highly encourage those that are listening take a look
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: and see if you can find a vehicle dependent expedition
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: guide for yourself. It is an incredible volume. It is
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: we have all called it the Bible of overlanding for
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: a very long time and it's a deserving attribute.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: Oh you're very God. And this companion book four by
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: four driving, which which is quite good, hasn't required because
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: it's these are tenants which are sort of hollowed. Well,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: thank you for having me, and I hope I haven't
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: bent your ears too much.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: No. I wish that we could spend all day recording
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: this because there's so much to learn from you. Tom.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: You've been such an inspiration for me. You've reminded me
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: of the importance of planning and logistics, and I've referred
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: to your book throughout all of my expeditions around the
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: world or my adventures around the world. And I'm just
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: so grateful that we could spend the time today.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure. Thank you, thank you, Thank you, sir,