Latest / Generations Church / #GOTDialog 001: Why I Gave Up on Church | Tan Chung Liang

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#GOTDialog 001: Why I Gave Up on Church | Tan Chung Liang · Generations Church

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So we've got we've got great video editors here. You have to your snip,
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snip your slip how you can. So I'm gonna have to do something
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here now, so I'm gonna parafrage everything. You just say here, you
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go for it without the names so that they can probably edit from this point
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forward and actually put this online later on something and that rend the and then
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but here, just go for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,
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okay, yes, sir, Hey there, I'm Andeo, the pastor
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of Genesis Church. This is a podcast and you just tune into the Generations
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on Tuesday edition Genertions on Tuesday or go ot is an alternative church experience is
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church but a little different. No platform, no propriate, no one creature,
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but rather the focus is on Christ community and conversations. We have a
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special heart for those who are in the creative arts, entertainment, media,
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music, FM B and similar communities, and we want to provide a safe
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space to explore and discover faith in Jesus, but in a not so conventional
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way. We hope you'll be inspired impacted by today's dialogue where we keep it
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real, raw and relevant on topics that matters. So let's get right into
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it. Be blessed tonight. We're gonna talk about quite a juicy topic.
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But I must clarify that it's not just a topic we cannot with because it's
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clickbit. We didn't come up with the topic because that will draw the crowd.
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We didn't come with the topic because it's controversial. Maybe that's what it
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looks like out there on social media when we when we put it up.
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But no, it's not why. That's not why we did it. But
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that's not why you're doing it. We're doing it because it's a story that
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needs to be told, and it's Liam's story, and the story that he's
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gonna talk about tonight is why I gave up on church. I'm not sure
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whether he left the church or what that means, but we'll find out.
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She definitely gave up on it, and we want to find out what does
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that mean. So we're doing this because it's liang story, and we suspect
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it's the same story for many out there too. Maybe it's some here tonight,
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maybe those whill be watching this later on. So we want to talk
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about that. So let's get straight into it. So it's a dialogue it's
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not preaching. It's not teaching, it's us talking. Uh, and so
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please feel freely young. We've been friends for a very long time, so
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there's no always here. We're just we're just talking. Yes, sir and
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Liang, you come from the best city in not just Malaysia but the world.
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Yes, where is that? Bro? We come from a place called
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Clang. Yes, Clang is the best. I mean, you're gonna know
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this that. There's a reason why they call it the Klang Valley. It's
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not the Pja Valley. It's valley just messing around, Okay. So Lang's
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from Clang and then we explain some things or not. I don't know,
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but it's from clan. I'm from Clang, so I can testify it is
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a great place to grow up in. It really makes you a real man.
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It makes you a survivor, yes, a warrior, it does,
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it does all right? Cool? So, uh, we went to the
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same school, we did different years. So primary school same uh, secondary
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school say yes, yes, and then college different. Okay. So since
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we're from the same hometown and pretty much the same primary school, high school.
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So I know you for a long time and as far as I've known
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you, You've always been Christian. To me, I never knew you as
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not a Christian. So to me, you have been Christian in your life
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and you're pretty much a church boy. And I know in summery you've been
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to You've been part of many different churches throughout your life. But you please
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describe to us your childhood. You know, growing up as a church boy.
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What was that like? Okay? Okay, cool? So I think
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growing up? Okay, I came. I come from a very orthodox Brethren
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circle harmony. If you all know what orthodox means, how do I know
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what Brethren means? Okay, So let me clarify. So I come from
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a small church called Max Attendance seventy five eighty. Pretty much everybody knows everybody
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else. You will know whose mother, whose father, how many kids they
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got, who's in what year for Sunday School. That kind of a setup.
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So it's small, it's cozy, you kind of know everybody. So
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my mom and my dad were leaders in the church, and so by default
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you had to set an example. So served in a church choir, paid
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guitar, paid bass, saying, the whole works. So that was my
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upbringing. It was strict to the point where my parents said, you cannot
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listen to circular music. That was the thing back in the day. So
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I had to drown my sorrows in Stephen, Curtis Chapman and DC talk.
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So on the odd occasion that you know, I I switched on the radio,
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it was always frowned upon and things of the nature love. So that
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was the kind of upbringing I came I came from, and then secondary school
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I I decided, no, this is not for me. I wanted to
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go out and explore. And so hence being twenty od years in one church,
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I branched out to So I drive down in my beat up oven back
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in year two thousand and one, drive down a Federal highway go to which
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is where I met some of you. Here was under the mentorship of this
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amazing lady cop Uh. And so there was that began the second cycle of
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my of my church going journey Uh and then from then into into I was
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in for about a year, a year and a half, I was in
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for about three years. I've been in generations for a year and a year
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and then some But yeah, so so it's it's my life has always been
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framed by a journey with a church. And that's that's pretty much ship who
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I am. That's pretty much shiped my thoughts. It's pretty much shipped my
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actions. Uh, which lends itself a bit of a bit of a bit
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of a backstory as to like why all that just poof and then move on?
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So more on the next we've woken and I found out not too long
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ago that you are quite done with church. There was a time where you're
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like, you know what I've been doing small church, I've done all kinds
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of church and the idea. I'm quite done with church, right, I
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think, if I'm not mistaken, I remember you saying to me once I'm
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probably never going back to a church again, or something to the effect.
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Correct. Okay, And that's how the topic came out tonight. Yeah,
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So I myself, I'm curious, like Leam, how do you go from
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church boy to I gave up on this thing called church? Could you share
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a bit of a sort of the backstory, backstory, some monumental milestones that
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led to that place. Okay, so this is where this is where it
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gets real. Okay, I mean we talk about alternative church experience. This
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is no host, but our name names. If I have to face the
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consequences, if I have to, this is what's a So I think it
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was a long time coming. My foundational years were brought up in a very
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orthodox kind of setting, rules, regulations, memorized the Bible kind of a
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setting, and so that was all I knew until I was about twenty.
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And then I went into and I served and I worshiped team and did missions
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and everything. And I was there for about ten o years and it was
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a total paradigm shift. But I'm the kind of guy that adepts. I
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want to learn what's out there, and I think me going to different churches
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was very much a part of the search. So I know some of you
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out there, you're going to different churches. It's the same journey. You're
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searching, you're finding what fits. I mean, sure it could be because
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it's all the hype, but maybe it doesn't resonate with you. Then it's
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not you. You know, it could be you know whoever it could be.
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I'm dropping names because you know, I'm like Rickid's survey right now and
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the Golden Doves, I don't care, but but but pretty much. But
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but that's pretty much where where I went through. I would like to also
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clarify I believe in God still. Okay, So you're like, who is
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this? So I still pray? We still we still we still say grace
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at the table every now and then with the family when I'm home. So
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I just want to be able to tell y'all it's it's a church thing as
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opposed to a God thing. You're following me, You're cool, okay.
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So I think in that regard, it was all that led to a head
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when I was or pretty much right after I left. So I was in
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church all this while and I joined FMB, and then there was absolutely no
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chance I could get into church on a regular basis. But I still kept
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in touch. You know, I've still got friendship from stick of friendship from
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playing. So I think that was that that part of me never left.
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And then one day rumors surface of the pasta that I was serving under.
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To cut a very long story short, at a scandal until today, until
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today, some people say, oh, right, wrong to me, I
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mean, yes, it could have been, but to me personally, it
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it rocked my faith. I remember sharing some of you all were standing at
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the back. Uh, my faith was shaken. It's true. Sometimes you
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you talk about, oh, you know, uh, look at God,
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look at Jesus, look at the cross, don't look at people. But
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I think it's a bit too simplistic of an a push to say, oh,
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you know, just put your eyes on Jesus. You know, men
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will fall. But you know, when you follow someone that that close,
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and you take, you take instructions, you take orders, you follow tells
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you tells you to jump cliche how high that kind of a thing. And
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then there's some that totally goes against everything that you've been thought. There's something
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that goes against everything that stood for and it does put you in a position
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to start questioning, now, what what do I represent? Where do I
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stand? Who is to me? What is our relationship? Now? God,
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are you real? All real questions that you start asking. So that
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was the first. Right up till there, my faith was rock solid.
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So that was as hard as soon as you can be. That was the
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first crack. Subsequently, it cracked further over. Mco MCOH was the perfect
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storm of all kinds of nonsense that could go wrong went wrong. I'm just
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gonna take you back to a little bit. We saw videos of Kenneth Copeland.
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Remember that dude, COVID be gone. No didn't. We had.
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So there was one scenario. We had the whole Ravi Zacharaya scandal, and
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there was someone all of us looked up to, you know, Hair Guy
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Institute and the whole works. If you all don't know Ha Guy Institute,
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that's something that he set up. Uh. So we are giants of the
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faith who you looked up to for the longest times, shaped your faith.
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People you looked up to, people who you when you were endowed. These
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were the guys who are guiding lights. And then Toom giants for Tom Giants
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for Tom Giants for and then you know you had you had the whole Hill
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Song scandal. Uh, misappropriation of cash and all that. So so so
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many today, But in that period of time, lockdown happened over almost two
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years. In that two years, seeing one thing after another, I distinctly
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remember telling my wife for you, I'm done. I can't do church no
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more. This is not for me. But I want to clarify when I
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said that it was it was a statement with regards to the church. It
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was not a statement of like God, I don't believe in you, in
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you anymore. I was rocked. Sure, my faith was rocked. Sure
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in people, Yes, but they didn't have they didn't have they didn't have
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an effect on my relationship with God. Yes, of course I started doubting
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more. It's a real thing. I started doubting more. I felt,
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maybe this isn't for me. God, are you there? Maybe you're just
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another universal being that all atheists claim to to to to talk to. But
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I've come up from that with a very distinct mindset. There is a God,
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This God loves me. The people who handled everything God's affairs on God's
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green earth or well, let's green these days, I'm messing it up.
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That's my stand. So yeah, great, So this is it is?
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So you grew up Christian, Yes, from childhood. You've been to all
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kinds of churches since you were a kid, very conservative ones where you're not
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even allowed to listen to the radios, not even secular music, to much
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more vibrant churches. You've been to small churches, large churches. I think
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you will also acknowledge that growing up in church have shaped you as a Christian
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as a believer, told you all you know about your faith, the Bible
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all this while and things were going well, and then you grew up.
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You're an adult and having put so much faith in your church leaders. Right,
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and this all backstory. You already said church leaders and sometimes even leaders
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fail. Sometimes even Christian leaders fail. Sometimes they fail, maybe because they
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are consistent with their words, or sometimes they don't keep their promises, or
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sometimes they do other things. You know, maybe there's moral failure or whatever.
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Right, and I think you experienced that, you have experienced something like
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that that a leader you looked up to, followed, served under pretty much
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trusted yep, yep. And of course we can't, we don't. Only
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God knows what really happened, did not have true but your trust was betrayed.
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And that was when you were betrayed. When your trust was betrayed by
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that leader that you once trusted so much. I think that's when you said,
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the cracks start to happen there, crack being your trust, your belief
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in church and faith and faith started to crack. And they cracked more during
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the m c o uh to the point where I think we met in twenty
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twenty two one those those days. Yeah, you told me I'm done with
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church. H I'm still Christian, I still believe in Jesus. I have
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my faith, but I'm not sure I have faith in church anymore, and
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so I'm never going to be a part of it again, you think.
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And when I heard that, I thought, Wow, how many more out
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there like you who would describe themselves as I'm Christian, I believe in Jesus.
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I have no problems with Jesus the Bible. I mean normal problems like
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oh, you know, if God is good, why is it evil?
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And stuff like that. We also ruggle with you still Christian, But some
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experiences in church, maybe how church is done or how some church leaders or
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people behave. Can I make you lose that lost that confidence, lost that
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trust, lost that whatever I used to have, Like, okay, can
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you talk a bit about about that, like when those cracks started to appear?
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Right? What was so painful? What was so impactful or what was
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so disappointing about those experiences that led you to the place where you can actually
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say I believe in Jesus, I get on church. Okay. So that's
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that's a very rare question. And I believe any backslider, anybody who was
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thinking about leaving church, these are some questions that you will you will reflect
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on. So I think it was. It was painful for me, especially
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because it was my entire existence. Grew up in a church, parents Christian,
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everybody went to Sunday School, you know, just the whole works,
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right into college serving a Christian fellowship. The whole works came up, did
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different churches. So I don't have a problem with the way the churches run
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theologically. So by in so saying, what that means is I've been through
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the breadon circles. I've accepted that. That's that's what they teach, that's
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who they are, that's the identity to the AOG system. I know who
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what it's all about, and I've accepted it. I've I've followed through,
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I've gone, I've gone under leadership from there, and I understand. So
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in that sense, it's not a scenario where oh no, they don't resonate
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with me. So it's not a me thing. It's not oh, I
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come before the church kind of thing. So I was I adapted. So
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I think the cracks form primarily because you know, leaders fail, faith eroded.
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But it made me question and it's very and it's very basis. It
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made me question my very existence because my homework was church. I'd say eighty
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five eighty eighty five percent of my friends are from church, and and by
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by by approxy the church net wargla, Oh I'm from sib I'm from whoever.
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So so it made me wonder where I stood because I had I didn't
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have that former ecosystem that I used to have. Do I still belong in
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church? Do I not? Where do I stand? Am I still questioned?
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Am I not? So? I think this was some of the the
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more the more painful paths that I had to take in answering where do I
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really stand. I'm comfortable where I am now. I'm very comfortable where I
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am now. But during that period of X number of years, it was
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it was trying, it was painful, it was it was hard to determine
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what my identity was. Am I still Christian? Am I still a son
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of God? Do I still go to heaven and all? That's what the
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repercussions last. So, so that was to me that was the most painful
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bit. So it's a question of whether it still belong. Yeah, So
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actually it was a question of who am I? Who am I? Not?
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Identity? So much of your identity is from drawn from being in church.
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So maybe it's a question of like, if I don't go to church,
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do I still belong to? Yeah? Right? So if I don't
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go to a physical church in a building or go every week to display Sunday,
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and I still out of the body of Christ? Right, do you
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have answer for that? Now? Where I am? Now? Yes,
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I am. I am very much a part of the Body of Christ in
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a non conventional slash alternative church kind of way. So I think I think
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I think where we are run now in twenty twenty four and beyond, I
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think I think lifestyles change, personalities change, pop culture changes. Who we
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are being fed by our environment, we change. So I think I think
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having this alternative church kind of a format speaks to me. It also it
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also helps me to to feed spiritually. So I think I think in that
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regard it's helped. But I will consider this an alternative church ministry church arm
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as opposed to like, you know, church in its in its former framework.
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Shall we say, okay, so so what are your So let's batch
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a little bit. Yeah, you now believe that I can not be part
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of a conventional traditional church setting where I go every weekend and I'm part of
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the production of a weekend church service or part of the program, and still
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at the same time still be able to be part of the Body of Christ
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because the Body of Christ is not characterized by its meetings or its buildings,
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programs or program Okay, so we know that, and you're you're now currently
20:40
part of a church expression that is not weekend not production based. You mean,
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on a weeknight you gather around tables. Instead of one preacher preaching to
20:52
everybody, you have several preachers around the table preaching from their experiences, their
20:59
lives if they are reading of the Word. So what about this they're part
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of Now that that works for you? Yep? And what about the other
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version they didn't work for you? Can you make a comparison? Okay?
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Generally Okay, we're talking about this as in Generations on Tuesday. Yeah,
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okay, his expression and the expression yeah, ken, so context wise,
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let me just let me just uh, let me just bring it up to
21:27
speech. So context wise, Generations on Tuesday came about, or rather,
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my involvement in Generations on Tuesday came about because Andy, as an old friend,
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had a vision that he needed he wanted to do something uh a,
21:41
that was there was different, there was unorthodox from the regular the regular church.
21:48
And I remember you also mentioned it was in a mall, and so
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I brought him here before while dis place was still being renovated, came to
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see. So this whole time I treated it as ministry. So this is
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my ministry. We are coming you guys into a space, providing a space,
22:03
being in a sense the host with the most kind of a scenario.
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So that's ministry as opposed to me joining a church in a way, I'm
22:14
blessed church came to me so so for that, I'm very grateful. But
22:18
yeah, so I would I would view this as me doing ministry in a
22:23
personal capacity, helping a fledgling church take flight, set roots kind of a
22:30
scenario. So that's pretty much where it is. Like, So that's this
22:33
as opposed to you know, the Gyinnomos Behamorth that is a regular church where
22:40
you know, full on productions, full on programs, hierarchy and pastoral teams,
22:45
hierarchy in worship teams, ushering teams, packing attendance, people wearing vests
22:49
and jackets, that kind of set up. So that was that was something
22:52
I came from that is something that that is something I left to be here.
22:59
So that's pretty much right. I have nothing against production or overproduction per
23:03
se. I also, in the same breath do not have anything against hierarchy.
23:10
Per se. It works for some. I'm just telling you, it
23:11
just didn't work for me, that's all. Why Why do you work for
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you? Like I think? Okay, that's a good question. The way
23:23
a church is run, not generations, the way the shameless plug, the
23:32
way a general church is run mirrors very much how a corporate entity is run.
23:38
You've got people in management roles. They may not say management roles,
23:44
but you have people in managerial positions and head and henceforth managerial job scopes.
23:51
So all it mirrors that. And then the only thing that differs from the
23:56
corporate entity is how you embed a spiritual element. Sunday church prayer meetings,
24:02
Wednesday, holy communion every now and then. Cell groups cool, but in
24:06
every other sense of the word, in every other sense of the term,
24:11
it mirrors a corporate entity. So over time it was it was the overreaching
24:18
arm of the of the corporate side that didn't sit well with me. You
24:23
must hit KPI for attendance, your cell group Okay, you must grow by
24:29
x percentage otherwise, you know, advise you don't hit target for example,
24:33
and things of the nature. So it was it was KPIs, it was
24:37
set goals, it was it was board meetings and how you had to be
24:42
answerable and bought meetings for finances and it works for some. I'm not saying
24:47
that's entirely wrong, it just didn't sit so well with me. So this
24:53
so this is, this is where, this is where this is home for
24:56
me? Yeah? Great, okay, So since you mentioned generations a lot,
25:00
just now, uh for for something maybe watching this or listening to this
25:07
for the first time. Yeah, uh. And maybe the impression of generations
25:11
is that we only meet on Tuesdays and this is all we have. May
25:15
I take this opportunity to say that we do we do me on Saturdays as
25:18
well. That's that's our weekly. That's that will be as close to conventional,
25:23
as close to productions supposed to template as possible. By having said that,
25:30
we also are trying not to be so uh. Is that hierarchy is
25:37
the structure? I think it's necessary. There is structure, There is some
25:42
kind of hierarchy. There is management and things like that. Uh to a
25:48
certain necessary point. Okay, right, I think I think what may start
25:53
becoming warbbly is when it becomes over extended or overdone. Uh. And being
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a new fledgling church as described, we have an opportunity with this being a
26:06
blank canverse, we can paint on it how we believe God envisions it.
26:11
But you know, we also have this Tuesday thing as another expression because there
26:18
may be people out there, maybe like you, like yourself, that believes
26:22
in Jesus, wants to have a community to grow with and discover faith with
26:27
and to grow faith with, but just can't fit into the model the correct
26:36
that we can just model. So hopefully this can be helpful. Okay,
26:41
I just want to add to that. So again I have you know,
26:45
people who go to the regular behem of churches, go with God, Peace
26:51
be with you. But but I do know there is a cluster and grow
27:00
in cluster of people who I think the right was disillusion disillusion with that setup,
27:07
who don't relate or who don't relate, don't want to relate, don't
27:11
need to relate. Take a pic with with that version of a church maybe
27:18
because you know KPIs don't sit well with you and you don't and you feel
27:22
it's it's not the way that you foresee a ministry being run, then it's
27:29
up to you. So this these are decisions purely made as a full grown
27:34
adult male, just like and and I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone else.
27:38
So this is telling you, guys, make your own decisions and be
27:44
at peace with yourselves. Thank you for that, Thanks for again, thanks
27:48
for being honest, Thanks for being transparent. There's someone he who asks how
27:52
did you deal or cope mentally and spiritually when you left the church that you
28:00
left? And then you left several so maybe which one we just lump it
28:04
up? Okay, the fact that you left? Okay, how do you
28:07
deal? How do you deal and mentally and spiritually when you left the church
28:11
insteaded searching for a new one, with life and career and business all going
28:18
on the same time, how do you? Okay? Big question? Yeah,
28:22
I wouldn't know how everyone else copes. But I've been blessed with abundant
28:27
energy. My wife begs to differ. My wife will tell me, oh,
28:33
you always bring home left over energy, but get up to you.
28:37
But anyway, so generally speaking, I've just got a fair amount of energy
28:48
resource law to be able to like move on. Okay, the key,
28:52
I think the key here is this, I never burned bridges, even if
28:56
someone has wronged me in the utmost that would be a last resort to burn
29:04
bridges, especially with church people. I've got people here from who I was
29:10
last day in like twenty eleven, twenty ten. I've got people from Klang,
29:14
and I was there since my childhood. So I think that that helped.
29:19
So it's important to differentiate that as you leave. It helped me a
29:26
lot mentally, physically, emotionally that I left in good faith. I didn't
29:32
burn bridges. I didn't like, ah, past, you're a cheat and
29:34
child. No, I didn't do that. I didn't. I'm not saying
29:37
anybody's a cheat, but but by and large, it was never a sceinerario
29:41
where I burned the bridge and left. So I always left in good faith.
29:45
I always havep me touching people, and I think that's a natural gift
29:48
as well. So I'm quite a friendly dude, so I made friends quite
29:52
easily. So in so saying, I think that helped me cope mentally.
29:57
That helped me cope emotionally and on every other occasion. It also helped me
30:03
cope spiritually. When I'm in it of a for example, spiritual parent,
30:07
I could turn to x amount of different people, or when I needed guidance
30:11
because maybe I was stuck, I could turn to x plus y different people
30:17
from various theological backgrounds, from various churches. So it's good to know,
30:22
like you can pluck fruits from different people, you know, and you glean
30:30
information. You glean knowledge from from so many different sources. So it's a
30:33
good thing. So that's sort that's how I did it. It was never
30:36
mentally texting. It was never emotionally draining or I left this church or say
30:41
goodbye to all my friends. You know they're all still there. It's kind
30:44
of a scenario. So I think that was for me, so a lesson
30:48
to be learned. Don't burn the bridge, are okay, great lesson?
30:52
Yeah, So let me try to summarize that. Yeah, I think I
31:00
guess live. What you're trying to say, yeah, or at least what
31:03
I understand that you're trying to say, is that living, moving on,
31:08
transitioning, change. Ah, it's part a part of life. Yes,
31:15
So I guess it's not about whether you live or don't leave something. You
31:18
can leave a job, you can leave a whole friend, friends, live
31:22
five your badminton group and join new one whatever. So leaving is not the
31:30
issue. It's how you leave, correct uh And you're left without wedding bridges.
31:36
So that means there's a way to live that is considered living. Well.
31:41
Yeah, I mean okay, so by definition I still left. I
31:45
still move on to a different place, you know, different doctrines, different
31:51
indoctrination, different set of people, different set of leaders. But am I
31:56
still friends with whoever was there? Yeah? So I think I think that
32:00
that was very much key. I think adding onto it, maybe it's a
32:05
personal thing. I handle change quite well. We used to be in music
32:08
together and I left music to go full blown into F and B. Yeah
32:15
did still standing finally get to sit now? But yeah, I mean it's
32:22
the life I signed up for. So I think for me personally, once
32:25
we embrace change, almost nothing can rock you. We all know this.
32:31
We all know change will be consistent. Leaders will change, church policies will
32:36
change, femine members will come and go. You know, death is a
32:39
certainty. So when you when you know that there is always going to be
32:44
change, the key lesson to be learned here is how you adapt to it.
32:50
It could be church, it could be music, and you know music
32:52
has changed. What do I do now? Do I know all of this
32:54
is nonsense? Those days music better? No, you don't. So I
32:59
think adapting to change, adapting to change, because adapting to change in different
33:05
phases of life is key, so that you don't mentally drain yourself, you
33:09
know, changing church or changing university. And yeah, so adapting to that
33:15
and embracing that has worked really well for me. Great. So living is
33:21
sometimes necessary, but you don't have to live bad. You can live good,
33:24
live well, don't burn bridges. You can leave a place, but
33:29
don't have to leave relationships. So you kept your community around you. So
33:35
while you're not in the physical church space, you still had those relationships and
33:40
you know, drawing back to the question that was asked earlier, how do
33:44
you deal? How do you cope mentally spiritually? Was that you because didn't
33:47
burn bridges? If they had those relationships, You had those friendships and you
33:51
were able to reach out to them and remain seene Yes. Secondly, is
33:55
that transitions, Transitions are changes. Yeah, some this transition can be very
34:00
big very impactful. So the quicker you embrace change and learn to adapt,
34:09
the better you'll be able to overcourish. So I think with that you've you've
34:15
answered some other questions here as well. Someone asked, how do you still
34:19
remain firm in your faith? In your belief in God? So I think
34:22
you probably say the same things. Yeah, okay, but I just want
34:25
to answer it. Yeah, aler to that. So the question was how
34:29
do I how do I still Actually it's why and how? So? Why
34:34
do you still remain firm in your belief in God? And also how do
34:37
you do that? Okay, okay, let's talk about the why. So
34:39
why do I still remain firm in your belief? Firm and my beliefs in
34:44
God? Everyone knows a relationship with God is a journey, and throughout this
34:50
journey with God, So there's a relationship with God, there's a there's a
34:54
relationship with church. Sometimes they're the same thing, sometimes they're not. So
35:00
I've learned to I've learned to to classify them. Okay, this is this
35:06
is me with God. No matter what happens to church, me and God
35:07
is like that. Oh, sometimes me and God will be rocky, but
35:10
hey, you know me and my church by this is still a social club.
35:13
So I still go and do this thing. We still doings and everything.
35:15
But but throughout my journey with God, I have seen I have seen
35:19
God come through for me too many times for me to say there is no
35:28
God. I've seen God come through for me, whether it's family, or
35:34
finances, or or relationships, every aspect. God has come through for me
35:44
in so many different ways, at so many different times, multiple times.
35:49
It's it will be foolish of me to say not all these coincidence. So
35:54
my hens, my relationship with God remains. So that is that is me
36:00
with God. How you view how you view it as entire left to you.
36:04
Maybe you've got you and God, you and church, and you've got
36:06
something else that's up to you. But this is this is how I've compartmentalized.
36:10
Not a good word, but yes, that's how I've compartmentalized. So
36:14
that's so that's me. I'll give you an example for example. Uh,
36:19
this is a recent example. You guys are here and read about that head
36:22
and I remember telling you this January the eighth, our daily beloved Landlord Garden
36:28
Small, what's up? Guidence Garden Small comes tells me via email that they
36:35
will shut off the Eitan entrance rich to us is our main entrance. That's
36:42
our link bridge to a whole bunch of regulars that come from kl Eco City.
36:45
You know your my our shopping customers, shopping set quarters is there,
36:50
Robert Waters is there. You know, a whole bunch of them. They
36:53
were shutting it off on January the eighth. No, they told me on
36:57
January the eighth. They were shutting it off on January the eleventh. They
37:00
only gave me two days to do things. So actually I was fuming.
37:06
I was the high Nannis clans out on me, went bonkers my stuff,
37:09
you want to talk to me? And bosses and Ben would we go away?
37:12
If we go away? I was swimming because they were so disrespectful.
37:15
So I was like, at witch end, these guys were shutting off effectively
37:21
killing my business. So I did. I made a simple prayer, like
37:25
God, this is beyond me now I cannot. I cannot talk to these
37:30
people because these are all like CEO levels. I eventually had a meeting with
37:34
the CEO and she wouldn't budge so but that's another story. So to cut
37:37
a long story shot, this door shut January eighth. They told me January
37:43
eleven they shut it. I asked them how long they're going to shut it
37:45
for. They were going to shut it till March twenty twenty five. And
37:49
all this time, I've got payroll to pay, I've got course of cose,
37:52
I've got a business to run. What do I do so that that's
37:55
a very real concern. So I prayed. It was outside here at this
38:02
fountain guarden. I just sat down there. You will see as you go
38:05
out, there's this fountain guidend. There's this little public that I sat down.
38:07
I looked across there. Okay, God, I cannot do Leo,
38:10
you have to show up. This is this is my very basic prayers,
38:15
and it's multiple times. It is not a transaction. I'm not asking God
38:19
for favor and he gives. This is me asking God for help. Kind
38:22
of a thing to cut a long story shot. Despite that having happened,
38:29
we sure we went ahead and we did marketing. We had to January eleventh
38:35
day closed. January we hit our higher sales ever, Wow, no kidding,
38:43
And I thought January was oh crazy. I thought, okay, February
38:46
we can close two days for Chinese year. Okay, I've got some money.
38:49
Hey, y February close to days for Chinese year. February only as
38:52
twenty nine days. February twenty nine days minus two days for change year,
38:57
so we only operate for twenty seven days. February sales was one and a
39:00
half times January sales. This despite the door being shut. Where they come
39:07
from? How they come from? This? This is this is how you
39:09
toss the toss on it from the side of the boat, so much fish
39:13
that you start pulling. That's pretty much where it is. I is there
39:17
an explanation? No, Where do they come from? Don't know? But
39:22
did they come yes? So this is this is this is God coming through.
39:29
There's no explanation. I didn't go downstairs to mid value where I teachirt
39:31
Hey, I'm absts and levels is follow me up? None of that.
39:35
So I think I think this is this is scenarios where God came true for
39:39
me. This is the most recent example. There are plenty er buy my
39:44
book on Amazon, but but but generally, by and large, that that
39:49
strengthens my faith. That strengthens my belief that there is a God who loves
39:55
me, that there is a god who's looking on for me. Uh.
40:00
I'm not saying that and therefore I don't need a church. I'm just saying
40:04
that purely that there is a God who loves me and that there's a God
40:07
takes care of me. It's sahaja great. Yes, this story is very
40:14
encouraging. I believe God is with you. He heard your prayer, he
40:17
answer them in a very creative way, and so we give glory to Him
40:22
before I move on to the next question. Or not depends. I don't
40:29
know this. This may be the very first episode of people watching out there
40:31
when when it goes online. Of course, people sitting here alive. I
40:37
want to say that what I'm hearing a story. Yeah, I'm interviewing you.
40:44
I'm listening to you, and this is your story that you're telling you
40:47
that story. I believe in the church. I believe that the church is
40:54
necessary. It's got agent or transformation in our world. It's Jesus a strategy
41:00
all of those things. I believe that. I believe that there is a
41:02
universal body of Christ which we're all part of. You're definitely part of that.
41:06
That's why we can leave a place and still be part of the Body
41:08
of Christ. But I also believe that there's a local body of Christ,
41:14
and that's the local expression. That's your little church, small church in a
41:17
building, part of the community. All of that I believe in both.
41:21
I believe when Jesus mentions church, he actually mentions in both expressions. So
41:27
I believe in that. So I believe that if you're a believer, you
41:31
should be part of a body of Christ where you can actually express your faith.
41:37
Like when Jesus say, is forgef on another you actually need to have
41:39
another person that will actually annoy you, step on your toes. You know,
41:45
I'm kind to you for you to forgive in order to obey those in
41:47
every where. I believe that having said that, I'm with you on the
41:52
whole. It doesn't Church doesn't have to be like just one way, like
42:00
it has to be run this way, it has to be on a Sunday
42:02
morning, not afternoon, or or like you know, there are a lot
42:07
of things that we have made church into into that may not necessarily be what
42:14
Jesus mean when he said church. You know what I mean? Uh,
42:17
yeah, A lot of things are expressions, but man has made some expressions
42:22
into the thing. Like when when Jesus was asked by the woman as well,
42:25
Uh, hey Jesus an empiaphastar Jesus, way, where's the right way
42:30
to worship? Your people say Jerusalem, My people say up the mountain,
42:35
which want to brow? Okay, she didn't just brought up. And so
42:39
she's basically trying trying to do what we've we've been doing, Like you know
42:45
which which kind of person worship song is got lee, you know which style
42:51
from Australia is better or UK or us? Uh? Do we worship in
42:55
the building or not? I mean, that's basically the essence what she's trying
43:00
to ask. And then Jesus debunked the whole thing and said, it's not
43:04
about any of that's not mountain or in the valley. It's not jazz or
43:08
R and B or rock. It's not huge song or mountain song or river
43:15
song or valley song. It's none of those things. It's worship God in
43:17
spirit and in truth. So I get what you're saying. I do get.
43:23
As someone who believes in that you gotta be in church, you gotta
43:28
come and serve in all those things. I still I still believe those things,
43:30
but I also believe that it doesn't have to be expressed only one way
43:36
or somebody's way, that your faith can still be as real. But I
43:42
think, I think so there's value with that. So basically no too,
43:46
No two of us are the same, and likewise no two churches are the
43:50
same. So using that as as as the underlying factor, I think it's
43:55
there are those who who favor structure, and there are those who favor routine,
44:00
and there are those who favor being managed, so and that's something for
44:07
them. And then there are those who I would hesitate to use the word
44:10
maybe a bit, a bit more of a free bird, a bit more
44:15
uncaged, so to speak, And then that and then there are there are
44:17
things for them as well. So I think let's not make a mistake in
44:22
saying, like, okay, only those who go to a church are spiritually
44:25
fed. Those who do not go to church or those who do alternative churches
44:30
also need to be spiritually fed. So I think there are there are different
44:34
permutations for different for different people, uh to feed different needs, to feed
44:38
different degrees of need. So I think that that works well. So there's
44:45
there's answer you two questions here from from the people listening that relate to what
44:49
we just talked about. One is therefore and therefore my addition to the question,
44:54
But the question is why why bother with church at all? Don't they
45:00
all eventually become the same es they grow bigger, et cetera. I guess
45:04
trying to imply that, yeah, you may start alternative, but eventually,
45:07
when you grow bigger and you, when you whatever, do you know what
45:13
I mean, you become just like everybody else anyway. You know, the
45:15
structure comes in, the rules comes in, all this thing comes in.
45:19
So why water anyway? Correct? Okay, So my take on this is
45:22
this, you don't predict the future until it actually takes place. So if
45:29
you're telling people, oh, you know, you're starting small, now you're
45:31
cool, you're fun, and then eventually you will not become fun, but
45:36
you never quite know until it actually happens. So let's not let's not say,
45:39
Okay, this bunch will eventually become like this, because it may not.
45:45
Yeah, or or your this church is all you know, they're so
45:47
stuck in their ways they will never they will never change. But then I've
45:52
been to churches and they actually do, so I think it's it's harsh,
45:57
it's a bit shallow, it's uh disrespectfuler. You know, if if we
46:01
if we say eventually all of them will eventually take on this role, or
46:07
all of them will eventually be mega churches with genomal sets of rules and satellite
46:13
churches in three different planets, you know that kind of thing. So I
46:15
think I think staying the course of the journey wherever you are with any church,
46:22
I stayed, so it's not like, oh, I'm here for only
46:24
three months, so you know, I watched them grow. I saw you
46:28
know, I was there ten o years, was there like two decades?
46:35
Maybe more so? I So all things said and that I think it's it's
46:37
it's allowing yourself to be very much a part of the journey and not forcing
46:45
your own ideas or templates onto that journey, because then, you know,
46:50
you might startle the growth of the church. So don't don't pre empty it
46:53
before it actually happens. That. Yeah, that's good. I mean,
46:58
we don't presume to know what God is doing or will be doing. Well,
47:02
that's all for now. We hope you've been inspired and impacted by the
47:06
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