Latest / The Director's Chair Network / Scarface (Chainsaw Scene) & Carlito’s Way (Pool Room Scene)
Transcript
- 0:20 hello and welcome And this is a show that I am really really excited about because we're switching things up a 0:27 little bit First of all let me welcome to the show Brian Sword fellow podcaster 0:32 Welcome Brian Hey Craig Thanks for having me on It's a thrill to be here Oh you got it So this is a first for the 0:38 show in the sense that I'm sitting down and podcasting with somebody I've never podcasted with before So that's kind of 0:44 uh cool And we're going to switch things up a little bit We're going to be talking about two different movies today 0:50 centered around a single performer So we're going to be talking about 1983 Scarface and 0:57 1993's Caro's Way both featuring Al Pacino So Brian before we get too into 1:03 things kind of set the table for us in terms of your Deal experience Is it centered 1:10 around these two Pacino movies or is it a greater appreciation of Dama as a filmmaker 1:16 it started with these two movies especially Caro's Way was my 1:23 initial start That was I had just gotten into Alpuccino movies and this was the 1:28 first one I saw in the theater Okay You know and then you know I got the poster and had it up and I was you know pretty 1:35 I'm pretty obsessive guy So that began my my my Pacino obsession and then I 1:41 went back and watched everything and became a much bigger film nerd and then 1:48 got into DeAlma ended up going to film school and and you know produced a film 1:53 and was worked corporate video forever But DeAlma to me is one of my all-time 1:58 favorite directors Pacino is one of my favorite actors So these two films mean a lot to me Oh that's excellent Yeah 2:04 it's amazing Brian I've been sort of really really focused uh on the diploma 2:10 end of things for the last couple months as I've started to think about this podcast and I mean this is a a diploma 2:17 podcast so there's no shock here but I mean it continually amazes me the career 2:22 that the Palama was able to have um and he wasn't always successful but I mean 2:28 gosh darn it if I can't make a claim on this podcast that he really is America's greatest director I mean there's other 2:35 directors that have been more successful but man nobody else has jumped in genres and mastered genres the way that Deama 2:42 did That's the key is that he never made the same film twice In fact you know I 2:47 think he was hesitant to even do Carto because he was afraid it was too close to Scarface Obviously it was very 2:53 different even though you could certainly tell it's the same director when you go scene by scene and you see the way he constructs scenes you know 2:59 he's got his own style but he could do anything and pull it off in terms of 3:05 style You know he's not pigeonholed into one particular thing Yeah It It's amazing to me and it it's so funny if 3:12 you just skim his filmography and you look at like okay Phantom of the Paradise which is like a midnight movie 3:19 before Rocky Horror Picture Show you know a rock and roll musical And then that you know a couple years later he 3:26 makes Carrie which is one of the greatest horror films of all time And then he makes you know this thriller 3:31 like Blowout And then he just you know later in his career makes a straightup action film like Mission Impossible 3:38 which a film like Mission Impossible might seem weird but it it kind of makes 3:43 sense to me that like Tom Cruz and Paula Wagner would be like "Yeah this guy has made some of the best action sequences 3:49 within non-action movies Why don't we let him just make an action movie exactly And when you really look at his 3:56 scenes like he has pre-planned everything He knows every shot before 4:01 he's done it He's not making it up on the fly which is why his action scenes are always so incredible Or his you know 4:07 one take wonders like super long shots that are just like how did you you know 4:12 plan that out just it's like ballet almost It's like a dance Yeah And we talked about that in the Snake Eyes 4:18 episode that you know just the technical part of putting that whole sequence together without all the actors having 4:25 to do what they have to do But one thing I think that these two scenes we're going to talk about illustrate is the 4:31 Palama's ability as a filmmaker to lay out the geography of a location Mhm There's so 4:39 many action movies and and I think a lot of times action movies are are built in the editing room and things like that 4:45 where you don't know what the f is going on where people are in relation to each other and a lot of other you know quick 4:51 cuts and things like that where you fake the action But the the impressive thing about these two sequences and dep in 4:58 general is the geography is always there There's no guessing as to where somebody 5:04 is in relation to somebody else Absolutely And a lot of times you get a standard wide establishing shot for most 5:11 directors give you the lay of the land and so you get a sense of the geography But with with Deal Palma he'll do like a 5:17 crane shot that swoops around and gives you everything so you know when the action starts who's who and what's what 5:24 It's never just a simple locked off shot to to establish the geography of the scene You know he builds it into the 5:31 perform what the actors are doing and gives the viewer a sense of what the scene is and where it is Yeah Yeah And 5:36 and the one thing I really really enjoy about Deal Palma is how cinematic he is 5:42 And I think there's a lot of approaches to film making where you try not to have 5:48 it feel or look like a movie But the the thing I love about Depal is he's like "Yeah you're watching a movie and you're 5:54 watching my movie." Yep And there's no wasted opportunity You'll watch a scene 6:00 and you'll be like some little thing happens and oh look there's a huge camera little swirl to pick it up where 6:06 it didn't have to be but it just makes it feel so cinematic He he never wastes an opportunity to be cinematic ever He 6:12 just doesn't do it Yeah And these two scenes are going to showcase that But before we get into that I want to talk a 6:19 little bit about DAMA and Pacino and Deama and actors in general because I 6:24 think a lot of times when people focus on a director's visual style their relationship to their actors 6:31 get a little lost And one thing is how many times Deama worked with the same 6:37 actors um you know as you know he famously Nancy Allen was in several of 6:42 his movies and we know they were married Pacino was in two of his movies He did several movies with Dairo early in his 6:48 career Uh Dennis Fron who just anytime he pops up uh John Lithggo So what do 6:55 you think it is about Dealma and his repeated use of actors do you think 7:01 that's sort of another sort of underappreciated tool in his tool belt i 7:06 think so I think there's a few things going on here I think a lot of times an extremely visual 7:13 director will do it at the sacrifice of the performance because it's about getting this super complicated shot and 7:20 the Palma could easily fall into that because of the complexity of what he does But I don't think he does I think 7:26 he manages to balance the complicated shot setup with working with the actor 7:31 to get the best performances because it's very rare to be a bad performance in a diploma film He he casts well which 7:37 is a good chunk of it is just choosing who to work with but he he pulls out incredible performances I suspect that 7:45 the recurring use of actors I because he's so complicated it may not be for 7:50 every actor so he probably finds the ones that enjoy the more complex stuff that can also perform under those 7:56 conditions and then uses them over and over again when he can Yeah And and 8:02 that's sort of how I want to dovetail with into Pacino because it's so funny Brian I don't know in in your world uh 8:09 if this debate was ever raging or not but there was you know probably when I 8:14 was really first getting passionate about films in the you know the mid '9s there would be the debate about who the 8:21 greatest American living actor was you know Pacino or Dairo And for the longest time I was like oh it's clearly Dairo 8:28 But then you go back and you start peeling the onion of Alpuccino's career and you see amazing performance after 8:35 amazing performance I mean just the two the first two Godfathers alone Uh and then you watch something like Dog Day 8:42 Afternoon which is just like a performance that I can't imagine many 8:47 other actors pulling off And the the intensity that Pacino has 8:52 without getting too intense um is is just 8:58 remarkable And I mean we could argue that later in his career he kind of leaned into that intensity Mhm But if 9:04 you look at those early performances it's really remarkable to see the work that he did and how committed he was to 9:10 things though I can't imagine that Dairo or that Pacino wasn't just thrilled to 9:16 team up with Dealma for Scarface which is just such a an audacious movie And I 9:21 mean you know he's playing a a Cuban immigrant Do you do you want to talk a little bit about Pacino a little bit 9:28 more before we get into the particular scenes sure Like yeah Pacino is my 9:34 favorite actor of all time and he had those two kind of major eras had the 70s 9:40 eras and the '90s era those were his two kind of massive peaks And I find with him using the Godfather 9:48 as a great example of the range of where that character started with which was 9:54 completely believable as the kind of good guy of the family who doesn't want to be involved and the end of Godfather 10:01 2 where is so extremely different yet completely believable like you saw the 10:07 darkness in him and you believed it That range of that one character in two films 10:13 is massive and very few people could pull that off in my opinion 10:18 And we talk about Dairo and he was another one of my favorite actors But oh 10:24 boy I could not believe Dairo in the beginning of Godfather one as Michael There's no way I don't think he could 10:30 pull off that believably You know he could pull off the second half no problem you know of of Godfather 2 So 10:38 I've always leaned into Pacino as my favorite It's hard to say better but my 10:44 favorite over Dairo and the range of work that he did in the 70s and the '9s 10:49 you know and yeah definitely by the end of the 90s well Son of a Woman and the end of the ' 90s he really leaned into 10:57 overthe-top but man it's I can't help but have a big grin on my face when I watch him do it You know what I mean so 11:04 like I'm not going to give him an Oscar for it even though they did Yeah But man when he starts chewing scenery you know 11:10 I'm like I don't care And that's part of the problem They gave him the Oscar But then you also think of uh movies like 11:16 The Devil's Advocate which is just such a fun movie to watch because of Pacino and how he's just chewing it up Mhm But 11:24 then also of heat too Oh I was going to say Heat is just like um probably like 11:29 peak you know hammy Pacino but also um just you know it's wrapped up in just 11:35 another you know a masterpiece And it's it's amazing to see how many masterpieces Oh yeah Pacino's been 11:42 involved with So let's jump into things and we're going to look at a sequence from 1983 11:48 Scarface It was a DealMama's 14th film and he was coming off of Blowout which 11:53 is just you know considered one of DAPA's greatest and you know rightfully 11:59 so But Scarface has a long and storied history Um it didn't start out as a DAMA 12:06 project It's got a script that's co-written by Oliver Stone And 12:12 it's it's amazing because it's one of those films I mean now every movie 12:18 nowadays seems to be over 2 and 1/2 hours long It's just accepted But Scarface is over 2 and 1/2 hours long at 12:25 a time when films really had to earn that run time Mhm And I think everybody 12:31 knows Scarface It's probably one of his most infamous movies one of Pacino and 12:36 and Deal's most infamous movies It's a loose remake of the 1930s film Scarface and it follows sort 12:44 of the rise and fall of a a Cuban immigrant who becomes a drug kingpin Before we get into the scene do 12:52 you want to talk about Scarface a little bit sure Scarface is boy that's a lot of movie 12:59 Um you know it's interesting You know the myth is that it was Aluccino's idea 13:04 to do it which is similar to Kudo's way but it was Aluccino's idea to remake it 13:10 He went to his producer and and they're the ones that started putting it together and got Oliver Stone on board 13:15 to start writing it And that off the bat is interesting you know to have the lead actor be the one to be like "No I think 13:21 there's a movie here a modern version of this story." I know De Palma wasn't the 13:26 original director in mind but I think it was Cindy Lumett right it was Cindy 13:32 that's right which makes a lot of sense because Picino's worked with him before obviously Dog Day Afternoon so that 13:38 makes a ton of sense Hawaii would go to him and in theory you think Sydney Lame 13:43 sure you know Scarface but it's certainly an interesting 13:48 it's an interesting movie and also I like the fact that it's interesting the fact that it was not a hit when it came out we we look at it now Like you you 13:56 can't walk down the street without seeing somebody in a t-shirt for Scarface You know it's such a classic 14:01 cult massive film but it wasn't in 1983 It barely made its money back Yeah You 14:07 know you know so it took a while for that one to build and I don't know it took maybe 10 years for it to start 14:13 becoming a bit of a classic So it's not your normal classic hit to look back 14:19 upon I think Yeah It's funny I I read a quote recently from Steven Bower who 14:25 said uh when they were making the film they knew they were doing something special and as they led up to the release 14:31 Pacino sort of said to him he's like "Listen don't read the reviews and don't 14:36 worry about the box office Just know that we made a great film." And I I 14:42 think that's probably how Pacino has functioned and maintained his career is not getting caught up in worrying about 14:49 what the critics say or or what your box office says I mean ultimately box office is going to dictate the the projects 14:56 you're able to make but you shouldn't let that drive sort of how you're doing the work But I I thought that was 15:02 interesting And then eventually like a lot of movies people caught up to it And 15:07 Pacino hadn't had a hit in a while You know when this came out he wasn't at peak pacino here Yeah You know like you 15:14 look back at what author author which is not a bad little movie Yeah Yeah Cruising was before which which bombed 15:21 and Justice for All I think that may be another one that people look back on more fondly I don't think it was much of 15:28 a hit at the time Bobby Deerfield wasn't Then you go back to Dog Day Afternoon you know So it's a few films 15:35 you know since he'd had a huge hit So he wasn't the draw I don't think at the 15:41 time when this movie came out Right Right So we're going to jump about 20 minutes into the film in a sequence 15:47 where Tony Montana Scarface is making a a drug buy Uh what do they call it yayo 15:55 Right And this sequence is pretty amazing It's 16:01 Oh yeah It's filmed in a in a little tiny apartment and there's tension as soon as Tony gets there And I think the 16:09 one thing about this sequence that I I really really like is the ratcheting of 16:15 of the tension especially when they introduce the chainsaw but then also the 16:20 acting that Pacino does here especially with his eyes and especially when the 16:26 chainsaw is being used The defiance Yes Yeah I mean there's never a point in the 16:32 sequence even after they've chainsawed his buddy or his brother there's no 16:38 sense from Tony that he's going to give Yeah that's right And that's I think 16:44 that's really hard for an actor to convey without saying anything It's all in the eyes Mhm And the other thing I 16:51 think about this sequence that's great is a lot of people talk about how violent it is but then also people are 16:58 always asking for the the uh the unrated cut of this scene And Deama never 17:04 filmed anything that showed the chainsaw That's right hitting the human body And 17:09 people you know I mean it's funny I I got in a sort of a I corrected somebody on Reddit recently where I was like they 17:16 were looking for the footage and I was like "The footage doesn't exist." And I found interviews with the Palama where he talks about it and he said "We never 17:22 shot it and we never intended to show it." And for a filmmaker that didn't shy away from getting gruesome got gruesome 17:30 in a different way with this sequence And it's it's one of those things where what you don't show your mind is going 17:38 to make it so much worse than it was But you absolutely you do not see the chainsaw hitting the skin but you sure 17:44 feel like you just did Yeah you know by all the different reaction shots and what or blood splashing up your face or 17:50 you know you feel like you watch something horrific and you didn't see much at all Yeah And and the tail end of 17:56 the sequence is really one of my favorite aspects of the sequence It's so when uh the you know help arrives and uh 18:04 you know sort of save Tony And again this gets to the geography of the location and where everybody's existing 18:11 with this within the scene There's a lot of people shooting guns and at no point do you lose track of who's who and where 18:18 they are Mhm And then we even get this sort of Hitchcockian overhead shot where 18:24 the guy with the chainsaw leaves the bathroom uh to escape And I instantly thought of 18:29 psycho the overhead shot of Norman Bates and Psycho at the top of the stairs But 18:36 yeah I think this sequence and then the next sequence we're going to talk about in Carito's way perfectly illustrate how 18:43 you choreograph an action scene without confusing the viewer Yeah And and it's 18:49 funny that overhead shot cuz there's the same shot in Kuda's way in the next you know he did it again But this scene for 18:56 me is a masterpiece and it's a masterpiece of the movie And if you want to really nerd out and dig into it if 19:03 you really look at it it's extra complicated because there's all the stuff outside on location and the stuff 19:09 in the hotel is clearly in a studio Yeah Absolutely not on location and it fits 19:15 perfectly So not only do you have all the complexities of the the crane shots 19:20 outside of which he he got his money worth on that crane that day cuz there's tons of them Yeah But he's cutting 19:26 towards another date another location you know pure studio you can tell And 19:33 also found all these different ways It's the most boring set possible but he 19:39 found so many vis like ways to make it visual from like when Bower's character 19:45 comes in and and starts shooting just the way he shoots up and down the door and then pushes through and he shoots 19:50 against you see him shooting the mirror you know which again helps with the geography but all these different visual 19:56 flares of the most boring set possible just to he ratcheted up everything and 20:01 it's such it's like one big long playable moment and he just cranks attention tension and every single 20:07 second there's as much tension as there possibly could be You know it's exhausting when you're done watching the 20:13 sequence because he just dialed it to 11 the whole time Yeah absolutely Let's jump ahead 10 years now 20:20 to Carito's Way 1993 his 21st film and he was coming off Raising Kane And I'm 20:28 just gonna get right out in front of this Brian and say that I think this sequence which is the sort of the pool 20:34 room sequence is arguably the greatest sequence that the PAMA ever directed and 20:41 it's from one of the greatest movies of the 1990s Absolutely It's interesting because the 20:48 parallels between those scenes are Well look we'll get this They both take place 20:53 about 20 minutes into the film Exactly But it's also him showing up for a drug buy Yeah That's a trap That's a trap You 21:02 know it's And you know all the goes down It's the same scene Same you know 21:07 ultimately but completely different shot Completely different Equally effective 21:13 if not more effective the second time Yeah You know like he took everything you learned the first time and perfected 21:19 it the second time Yeah But it's it's amazing cuz it's the same scene Like Yeah Watching them back to back really 21:25 really illustrated that But again we get into the geography of the scene And the thing I really like about this sequence 21:31 is again all the work that Pacino is doing cuz there's very little voice over 21:36 He has a couple of of voiceover lines where he sort of sets the stage for things but then he's doing all this 21:41 acting with his eyes where he notices immediately there's something going on in the bathroom and he he knows 21:47 something's going on there and he pretty early on realizes that they're being set 21:53 up and then he goes through the sequence of trying to figure out how to get out 21:58 of it Yeah And you know he presents this magic pool shot he's going to do 22:05 And goodness I mean this sequence we we could probably spend the next hour uh 22:13 talking about it but I mean you have a great performance from John Ortiz And again uh the moments leading up to 22:20 when goes down is another lesson in sort of uh you know sort of ramping up 22:25 tension Like the difference between this scene and the last one is he walks in hesitantly He walks in 22:32 unarmed you know he's just kind of along like a bystander almost on somebody else's deal As opposed to Scarface where 22:39 he walked in you know as the the aggressor in it Yeah Uhhuh So he walks 22:45 in he sees instantly something's wrong The kid he's with is completely oblivious that there's a problem Has no 22:52 clue He's blinded But Carito picks it out within seconds He knows there's a 22:58 problem but he doesn't have a gun They're completely outmanned and he has to try to figure out a way to get out of 23:04 this and take some of them down which is hence the the uh the pool shot where he knew he lines it up perfectly He could 23:10 take out two like that you know without a gun And uh yeah when you talk about 23:16 again the Palma's brilliance in this scene like again the geography instantly 23:22 you know where everybody is what's going on every shot every opportunity to dial 23:27 in attention cuz you know as a viewer you're with Pacino you know instantly you see what he's done It's all entirely 23:35 from Pacino's point of view But Depalman never cheapens it by doing a POV shot 23:41 Yes Not once You know it's all his eyes He's looking around You see what he's looking at you can kind of read his mind 23:47 but it's all done elegantly Yeah You know what I mean 23:53 like it's a master class Like this is a scene that should be taught to every film school student in terms of how to 23:59 because it's really complicated but seamless when you watch it Yeah You know 24:04 what I mean you you follow it Yeah And the the cool thing I I like about this shot too and one thing I appreciate 24:10 about about Deama is he's able to telegraph things in a way that makes the 24:17 viewer feel smart but without being overt And I think a great example of 24:22 this is when Caro asks the guy for a light for his cigarette And it's clearly 24:27 to see if the guy has a gun Yep And he sees he has a gun And then he puts the next part of his plan together But I've 24:34 said it before on this show I think the one thing I really like about Deama that I think a lot of other quote unquote 24:40 arty filmmakers fall into is Deama isn't afraid to stay true to his sort of 24:47 popcorn uh you know way of making films or that grindhouse aesthetic where it's okay to 24:54 get down in the gutter and the problem has done that a lot But I I think that's a lot of artouse filmmakers for lack of 25:00 a better word just aren't willing to go there or think it cheapens their product if they 25:06 do go there Interesting Yeah Oh yeah He's not He doesn't hide his history but 25:12 he takes these movies that under a lesser 25:18 hand could be a movie of the week and he elevates them You know what I mean like 25:24 a lot of his films they're not he's he makes art out of films 25:30 that aren't necessarily that on the page Yeah put it that way you know Yeah 25:37 absolutely So Brian this was a great discussion and I hope we can come on at some other point together and maybe do 25:42 even a deeper dive on these sequences and these movies but I do want to uh give you a chance to talk about your 25:49 podcast So let people know about your podcast and where we can find it Sure 25:54 Although I'm a big movie nerd uh this is actually a music podcast It's called The Double Stop I started it 10 years ago 26:01 and I did a 100 episodes They're all kind of extended long interviews 26:08 with musicians and producers mainly 80s bass 80s and 90s Um it's all kind of 26:15 guitar rock You know there's a lot of kind of hair metal stuff but a lot of Prague and Shred and all kinds of stuff 26:21 So it's all kind of based around guitar rock And we'll go through the entire career of the person I talked to from 26:27 how they got into music all their albums you know and it's almost like the 26:33 attempt is kind of do like a an audio documentary of their life You get a real 26:38 good sense when you in detail for an hour when they're talking about their whole career You get a good good sense of them So I did a bit over 100 episodes 26:45 and then I had another child and we kind of had to shut it down We moved from Vancouver over to Ontario and life got 26:52 crazy But now he's a little older and it's calmed down So I brought it back and I think I'm seven episodes in you 26:58 know kind of once every week or two there'll be a new one that comes out So it's called The Double Stop It's um on 27:04 all the usual audio podcast platforms and I also put it up on YouTube as well but it is strictly an audio podcast Yeah 27:11 Excellent and and I'll include a link to that And um yeah before we go are there any kind of final thoughts you want to 27:17 give about Deama his relationship with Pacino or these two movies 27:24 i think these two movies really hold up well Scarface is crazy but you know 27:31 there's a reason why it's a classic And Caruda's Way to me is just a masterpiece Like I think that's one of Bryant De 27:37 Palma's greatest achievements is that film you know Um it was an old book In 27:44 fact I I have it here The old original book you know and then you know which 27:49 which that was the original And then this is actually what the movie is is after hours What the movie was which is funny They they they couldn't use the 27:55 name after hours because of the TV Yeah Exactly Like these were books they they'd come out a long time earlier 28:03 They they did not sell well They were not hit books Um I think as I understand 28:08 Pino came across it like he met the author Edwin Torres at a gym or something He was a judge He was a judge 28:14 Yeah Yeah And he also wrote Q&A which also was made into another film with Nick Noli But um this is not these 28:22 weren't books that were bestsellers and again Pacino read them and was like I want to do it and and got the team back 28:29 together again But you know for a diverse filmmaker like DeAlma this has 28:34 got to at least be in the top three because he's done so many amazing movies It's not a film that it has become the 28:40 same modern classic as Scarface but my goodness people if you haven't seen it you got to check it out Yeah No it it I 28:46 it's a hill I'll die on It Caro's Way is a better film than Scarface It not even debatable in my opinion And again it is 28:54 I mean depending on where you fall and what you dig there's probably two 28:59 straight masterpieces that you can arguably say Dealma made Blowout being one of them Caro the other I think 29:06 there's other masterpieces in his filmography Uh but those two are inarguable and I don't think you're 29:12 wrong choosing one over the other But yeah I if if if I achieve anything with this show Brian it's to give people a 29:19 greater appreciation of uh Dama as a filmmaker in general but also to how 29:24 incredible the film Caro's Way is And uh Arrow Video recently put out a really 29:31 really great 4K release of this film Universal had done a 4K release um a 29:37 couple years ago but this 4K release tightened things up a little bit gave a 29:43 little bit of a better um presentation of the picture Uh and also it's just have has a a ton of great great extras 29:51 So if you're on the 4K train definitely check out the Arrow video uh release of 29:56 Carito's Way Brian this was great Hopefully we can sit down and chat again 30:02 Oh I'd love to And until then thank you Thanks for having me on And uh yeah as 30:07 as I mentioned before we came on uh I'm a massive fan of the Slycast I thought 30:12 you did a brilliant job on that show so I'm really happy to get a chance to talk to you Oh that's great I I love hearing that The the Slycast is one of my uh 30:20 proudest podcasting achievements Uh I'm really proud of the work we did on that show and the presentation we had doing 30:28 really really sort of long form discussions of Slice movies I'm kind of disappointed we 30:35 didn't get to some of them later in his career I would have loved to have talked about the the fourth Rambo movie Mhm But 30:42 man the the late 90s and early 2000s really really killed our momentum 30:47 That's Yeah they were a bit of a grind All right So we'll talk again soon Okay 30:53 Thanks a lot man 31:03 [Music]