Latest / The Well / Building Relationships - A Love To Live By | Dr. Winfred Neely

Transcript

Building Relationships - A Love To Live By | Dr. Winfred Neely · The Well

0:01
S1: Agape love is just that, this mere sentimental fluff. It
0:06
S1: has steel in it and is willing to make the
0:09
S1: hard decisions that are necessary for the highest good and
0:13
S1: flourishing or the other.
0:19
S2: Welcome to Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
0:22
S2: the New York Times best seller, The Five Love Languages. Today,
0:25
S2: three little words. Easy to say, but oh so hard
0:30
S2: to do. Three little words that are the basis of
0:33
S2: just about all our relationships. Love one another. Author and
0:39
S2: former professor of hermeneutics, homiletics and pastoral studies at Moody
0:42
S2: Bible Institute, Doctor Winfred Nealy is going to help us
0:45
S2: unpack the meaning in those three little words today. Our
0:49
S2: featured resource at Building relationships.us is Doctor Neely's latest book,
0:54
S2: A Love to Live By Rediscovering Agape Love in Scripture.
1:00
S2: We have that link right there at building relationships.us. And Gary,
1:03
S2: I think with all that you've written about the topic
1:05
S2: of the love languages, you are really going to resonate
1:08
S2: with what Doctor Neely's wake up call is to us today.
1:13
S3: I am excited about our program today, Chris, because I
1:16
S3: believe that love is one of the most important words
1:19
S3: in the English language, and certainly for Christians. So yeah,
1:24
S3: I'm excited about our conversation today.
1:26
S2: Well, let's meet Doctor Winfred Neely, a graduate of Wheaton
1:29
S2: Graduate School, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. His PhD is from
1:34
S2: the University of Aberdeen in Scotland. He's an ordained minister,
1:38
S2: was professor of hermeneutics, homiletics and pastoral studies at Moody
1:42
S2: Bible Institute for more than 20 years. He is the
1:45
S2: retired vice president and academic dean of Moody Theological Seminary
1:50
S2: and professor emeritus of Old Testament biblical interpretation and biblical preaching.
1:56
S2: That's all the time we have for you today. But no,
1:59
S2: that's not true. He and his wife, Stephanie, have been
2:02
S2: married for 50 years. We got to tell you about that.
2:04
S2: And our featured resource today at Building relationships.us is a
2:09
S2: love to live by. Again, go to building relationships.us.
2:14
S3: Well Doctor Neely welcome back to Building Relationships.
2:17
S1: Well thank you Doctor Chapman. I'm honored to be on
2:20
S1: the air with you and Chris today.
2:22
S3: Now before we dive into these three little words, can
2:26
S3: you give us an overview of your life where God
2:29
S3: has led you and your wife to serve through the years? Obviously,
2:33
S3: Chris gave part of that, the educational part of that.
2:37
S1: Yeah. Well, um, my Stephanie, my, my dear wife of
2:42
S1: 50 years. Now we have gone through a, a, a
2:48
S1: wonderful journey together. Uh, we did serve as missionaries In Senegal,
2:55
S1: West Africa for ten years and have served local churches
3:02
S1: here in the city of Chicago. And Stephanie has walked
3:08
S1: with me beside me, serving the Lord also in her
3:13
S1: own areas of giftedness. An incredible mother to our to
3:19
S1: our children. And so we're in a different season of
3:24
S1: life now where I am retired but still involved in ministry.
3:30
S1: And she is is joining me in those in in Devers.
3:36
S1: And that's kind of the the broad, very broad strokes, Gary, about, uh,
3:42
S1: Stephanie and myself.
3:45
S3: Well, that's a life that's, uh, well lived, I would say.
3:48
S3: So God bless you.
3:50
S1: Well, thank you.
3:50
S3: Thank you all that both of you have done together
3:53
S3: and as you say it, you retire. But it doesn't
3:56
S3: mean that we aren't going to do ministry because we're
3:58
S3: all of us are servants of God. Right?
4:01
S1: Well, no, that's that, that's right. But I was reminding
4:04
S1: one of my dear friends that this idea of retirement,
4:07
S1: you know, I can understand why we do that in
4:10
S1: terms of our institutions. But of course, biblically and theologically,
4:14
S1: we walk with God and serve God. And to the
4:16
S1: day we breathe our last like, like Moses did. And
4:21
S1: the book of Deuteronomy gives several sermons, uh, teaches Israel
4:25
S1: a song, then gives them a benediction, goes up to
4:29
S1: Mount Pisgah, and looks over and sees the promised land
4:33
S1: and dies. Yeah. And that's, that's in the book of
4:36
S1: Deuteronomy lets us know that leaders are all things being equal.
4:40
S1: Serve God until the day that they breathe their last.
4:44
S3: Yeah. Well, that's certainly my desire. And I know that's
4:47
S3: your desire.
4:48
S1: It is.
4:49
S3: Yeah, absolutely.
4:50
S1: It is.
4:51
S3: What burden or what moment in your pastoral journey convinced
4:56
S3: you that the church needs a fresh call to Christ
5:00
S3: like love?
5:03
S1: That's that's a good question. I have been thinking about
5:08
S1: this topic and this and writing a book on this
5:13
S1: topic for many, many years. It started, of course, when
5:17
S1: I was serving as a pastor in Dakar, Senegal, and
5:22
S1: I was leading the congregation through a series of studies.
5:25
S1: And on first, John and I came across in my
5:30
S1: systematic exposition of First John, I came across John chapter four,
5:36
S1: verses seven through 12, beginning with beloved, let us love
5:42
S1: one another. And it was my message. Preparation for the church.
5:50
S1: That's going to start a wonderful revolution. If I can
5:57
S1: use that term in my own heart and mind and
6:00
S1: life about the purpose of Christian love in the life
6:05
S1: of the church. It's going to it's going to change
6:07
S1: my life. It's just going to change my marriage, actually.
6:12
S1: And it had a big impact on the believers at
6:17
S1: that time. And, and in their lives. So that was
6:21
S1: essentially the beginning of my now, I had seen it
6:25
S1: modeled before in, in my mother's life. Um, a dear
6:30
S1: colleague of mine, the late Eric Church, who was my
6:33
S1: mentor and senior colleague when I was a missionary, the
6:37
S1: late Eric Church from England. Uh, him and his wife embodied, uh,
6:43
S1: biblical love in a way that was just so obvious
6:46
S1: to me.
6:48
S3: Mhm. Yeah.
6:49
S1: But I sensed in my heart and mind several years
6:54
S1: ago that it was time for me to write the book,
6:58
S1: given the the visions that were marking the body of Christ,
7:04
S1: the vitriol, the emergence of cancel culture and just weariness
7:11
S1: and and fatigue and giving up on one another as Christians.
7:18
S1: It seemed to me that now was the time to, uh,
7:22
S1: go ahead and get the book written for the benefit
7:29
S1: of the body of Christ. And again, I'm looking for
7:32
S1: revival and renewal and reformation in the life of the church.
7:39
S3: Well, I think there's no question that it's definitely needed
7:43
S3: at this juncture in our culture. Boy, it's almost like
7:48
S3: we're in a civil war. War battle. You know, with
7:51
S3: words against each other, whatever the topic, almost. And certainly
7:57
S3: if anyone should be leading a parade here for love,
8:02
S3: it is Christians. No question about it. So I am
8:05
S3: really glad you took the time to invest in putting
8:09
S3: this on paper. So folks, and so that all of
8:13
S3: us can be challenged again to this fundamental truth. So
8:17
S3: give us a working definition of the love you're talking about.
8:20
S3: What is agape love?
8:22
S1: Oh, well, first of all, it's God Himself who defines, clarifies,
8:33
S1: and exemplifies what love is. And the term agape Itself
8:44
S1: from a linguistic point of view, doesn't have a lot
8:49
S1: of significance in itself as a term. It's when the
8:54
S1: Spirit of God takes up this term, among others, which
8:58
S1: he could have chosen, but he takes up this particular term,
9:03
S1: especially in the New Testament. He takes up this term
9:11
S1: as a noun and as a verb to clarify to
9:15
S1: us the love of God. So it's when it's used
9:19
S1: of the love of God that the Spirit of God
9:22
S1: takes this term and fills it with really infinite significance. So,
9:33
S1: so much significance that the term agape, if I and
9:38
S1: if I can use A.W. Tozer's words are being crushed
9:43
S1: with the weight of the significance of what is implied
9:47
S1: when this term is applied to God and one working,
9:52
S1: not so much. So much, not so much a definition.
9:54
S1: Because I don't think we can ever, ever, ever define love.
9:58
S1: We will have been in heaven for billions upon billions
10:01
S1: of eternities, and still will be understanding different facets and
10:06
S1: aspects of who God is and who his love is.
10:08
S1: So the term is inexhaustible, is boundless. It's it's it's,
10:12
S1: it cannot be measured, but we know it when we
10:15
S1: see it. Now, for example, agape love always works for
10:21
S1: the highest good and kingdom flourishing of the other without
10:28
S1: any hidden agendas. And you say, well, how do we
10:31
S1: know that? Well, we know that from God Himself. God
10:34
S1: himself is complete. He's perfect. There isn't anything that we
10:38
S1: can add to God. There isn't anything that we can
10:41
S1: do to enrich God in terms of who he is.
10:44
S1: He acts out of complete. He acts out of fullness.
10:46
S1: He's already complete. So when he loves us, he is
10:51
S1: doing it for our benefit and for our good. And
10:57
S1: so agape love when used of God as a definition
11:01
S1: of of Christian love, moves out without self-protection for the
11:07
S1: highest good and kingdom flourishing of the other.
11:11
S3: Well, Doctor Neeley, you talked about something of what? The
11:14
S3: depth of the word agape love. Uh, why is this
11:19
S3: kind of love, the ingredient that gives the Christian life
11:22
S3: its real flavor?
11:24
S4: Oh, wow.
11:26
S1: Uh, because, you know, the scripture says, um, do everything
11:32
S1: that you do. Do it in love. Uh, Ephesians says,
11:39
S1: speaking the truth in love. And when we talk about
11:45
S1: in love, we are talking about in the sphere of love,
11:53
S1: in the atmosphere of agape love. Meaning then that everything
11:59
S1: that we say, everything that we do in every attitude
12:05
S1: that we have, every posture that we should take, should
12:09
S1: be done in the sphere of agape love. If we
12:14
S1: do not do it in love, Gary, we are not
12:18
S1: acting christianly. If I can say it the way Paul
12:22
S1: says it in first Corinthians 13, uh, the greatest gifts
12:27
S1: in the world, the greatest sacrifices that we can make
12:32
S1: minus love equals Zero. And that is that. That's quite
12:38
S1: stunning when we think about this, that love is central
12:44
S1: to everything that we do as followers of Christ. And
12:48
S1: I it seems to me that we need to recover
12:53
S1: this truth, because my sense is that the church has
12:58
S1: lost sight of this, of the central and non-negotiable place
13:04
S1: of agape love in the life of the church and
13:06
S1: the life of the Christian.
13:08
S3: Mhm. Is it possible to do good things, but not
13:15
S3: in an attitude of love?
13:17
S1: Sure.
13:19
S3: Sure. Can you give us examples of that?
13:21
S1: Well, you know, I think I, I think we have scripturally,
13:26
S1: I think Paul says if I give away all my
13:29
S1: possessions and if I surrender my body so that I
13:37
S1: may glory, but do not have love. It does me
13:43
S1: no good.
13:44
S3: Yeah.
13:45
S1: If I have the gift of prophecy and know all
13:48
S1: mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith
13:53
S1: so as to remove mountains, but do not have love,
13:57
S1: I am nothing. And sometimes we can even meet the
14:03
S1: needs of people. But our attitude is cold, our heart
14:10
S1: is callous. There's a kind of haughtiness in the eyes and, and,
14:18
S1: and this is communicating, um, to people or they helping me.
14:23
S1: But it's ice cold in here.
14:26
S4: Yeah.
14:26
S1: Right. Yeah. And, um, so yes, we can, we can
14:30
S1: do a lot of things, we can do it. We
14:33
S1: can do a lot of things. But just because we are,
14:37
S1: are active and involved in doing a lot of things,
14:39
S1: and we're not doing it in love is a problem.
14:43
S3: You know, I've always appreciated this about Samaritan's Purse ministry.
14:48
S3: You know, they do a lot of good things all
14:50
S3: over the world. Yeah, I sure do. But they always
14:52
S3: say we do this in the name of Jesus. Yeah.
14:56
S3: You know, because really, that's that's what love is all about, right?
15:00
S1: That's right. Well, you know, yeah, I was even reading.
15:04
S1: I was reading today, which is another another example. He
15:09
S1: doesn't use the term love, but this is what this
15:12
S1: is what it is. When Paul says to Titus in
15:17
S1: Titus chapter three, verse one, remind them to be subject
15:20
S1: to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready
15:23
S1: for every good work. Listen to this. To slander no one.
15:28
S1: Not to be contentious, but gentle. Listen to this, showing
15:35
S1: every consideration for all people. And then he tells us why.
15:43
S1: Because we were once foolish, you know. And we we're
15:48
S1: only different because God changed us. But when the kindness
15:51
S1: of God, our Savior and his love for mankind appeared,
15:54
S1: he saved us. And so, as regenerate men and women,
16:01
S1: we are called upon to love one another and to
16:05
S1: love all people, including our enemies.
16:09
S3: Yeah. So if we're going to love our enemies. How
16:16
S3: is that? How is that expressed? Because in today's world,
16:22
S3: it's we have enemies. We're fighting each other.
16:25
S1: We are.
16:26
S3: So how do you. What is the attitude and how
16:32
S3: is it expressed? This love to our enemies.
16:35
S1: Well, it, uh, first of all, that we we pray,
16:41
S1: you know, the Lord Jesus says, love your enemies and
16:44
S1: pray for those who persecute you, so forth and so on.
16:47
S1: So we pray. We ask God to soften our hearts
16:52
S1: toward them. Now, it doesn't mean that we act unwisely. Uh,
16:58
S1: it doesn't mean that we are accepting verbal and physical abuse.
17:04
S1: What it does mean is that we do not allow
17:08
S1: our hearts to descend into the pit of hatred, because
17:14
S1: hatred then will result in reactions from us that are
17:20
S1: not healthy for us or for the other person. Now,
17:24
S1: it's not easy. It's not an easy thing to do. And,
17:28
S1: you know, there was someone, uh, Gary, that did something
17:33
S1: that hurt my family deeply, deeply. I didn't, I just
17:42
S1: was not in the place where I could pray for
17:44
S1: that person, let alone mention that person by name, for
17:49
S1: almost two years.
17:51
S3: Mhm.
17:52
S1: And I'm writing the book and I'm writing the chapter.
18:00
S1: Your enemies love, your love your enemies. Um, I've got
18:05
S1: in the middle of the chapter that I was, I
18:08
S1: was revising the chapter and I wrote as I reread
18:12
S1: this paragraph, I am reduced to tears. Lord, this is
18:17
S1: a hard word, but may your love be done in
18:21
S1: my life, no matter how hurt and angry we are,
18:26
S1: hatred for the enemy, hatred of another human being is
18:31
S1: off limits for the child of God. Now, of course,
18:35
S1: it doesn't mean that we approve or sanction everything, so
18:37
S1: I don't want to you know, this is why I
18:39
S1: got a chapter in there on Love Wisely Directed as well.
18:42
S1: This is not a call to be foolish. This is
18:44
S1: fundamentally the posture of our heart toward toward people that
18:48
S1: are hostile toward us. We so we, we have to
18:51
S1: create boundaries. We have to take steps, of course, but
18:55
S1: we don't hate because hate is going to lead to
18:58
S1: violence and other kinds of dysfunctional behavior on our part.
19:03
S1: And that way, the cycle of evil continues. But we
19:08
S1: can break that cycle, at least by having a posture
19:13
S1: of of love and taking steps that are wise and
19:16
S1: well considered. Uh, in order to, in order to at
19:20
S1: least let the people know that we love them, even
19:22
S1: though we may disagree, even though we may not be
19:24
S1: in relationship, even though we may have to take some
19:27
S1: hard decisions. But I'm taking those hard decisions out of
19:31
S1: love and not hate.
19:32
S3: Yeah.
19:33
S2: So, Doctor Neeley, that means that we don't forget that
19:38
S2: we can love our enemies, but still not forget what
19:42
S2: has happened to us, right?
19:44
S1: No no no. That's right. We are not machines. We
19:51
S1: are not computers. We just don't hit the delete button.
19:57
S1: And painful memories disappear from the memory banks of our minds.
20:03
S1: That's not who we are. We're people. We're human beings.
20:05
S1: We're breathing. We're living. But we try to remember redemptively, right?
20:14
S1: We try to remember us in love And we try
20:20
S1: to remember in such a way that it doesn't paralyze
20:24
S1: us in the present. And what I'm what I'm saying
20:28
S1: is someone may have hurt us deeply. And if we
20:32
S1: do not remember that redemptively that spills over into other relationships.
20:37
S1: It gets in the way. We have a defensive posture.
20:41
S1: We refuse to reach out to other people because we've
20:45
S1: been hurt. So. And so how we. And that's a
20:50
S1: whole nother topic, Chris, about the memory. You know, why
20:55
S1: do I keep going over this? Why is this coming
20:58
S1: back to me? Why am on my knees in prayer
21:01
S1: and all of a sudden my memory, my mind is
21:05
S1: flooded with all of these painful memories. Where are we? Okay.
21:10
S1: But we have to remember Redemptively in faith. Take God
21:15
S1: at His word and move on. And when it comes again,
21:19
S1: we just go through that process again. But it is
21:22
S1: foolish to put ourselves in harm's way in the name
21:27
S1: of loving an enemy. That's a foolish thing to do.
21:31
S1: But it does mean that we can't. God is calling
21:34
S1: us to love people instead of hating them.
21:37
S3: Almost like saying, Lord, you know what I'm remembering today?
21:40
S3: And you know what I'm feeling today. But I thank
21:43
S3: you that I don't have to follow those feelings. And
21:48
S3: I want to pray that you would give me wisdom.
21:50
S3: If there's something I can do that would be meaningful
21:53
S3: to them. But I want to pray for your hand,
21:56
S3: to minister to them and bring them to yourself. That's
21:59
S3: what I hear you saying. At least part of what
22:02
S3: I hear you saying.
22:03
S1: No, no, no. I think I think that's accurate. We
22:06
S1: don't want to be chained to the past.
22:09
S3: Yeah.
22:09
S1: We don't we don't want to be changed. And I
22:11
S1: think this is what Paul is talking about. I preached
22:15
S1: a sermon and I got that in the hopper in
22:18
S1: terms of a of a book that's developing. I'm developing
22:21
S1: a devotional on it now. Forget reach and press on. Mhm. Um,
22:26
S1: when Paul says, forgetting the things that are behind and
22:29
S1: that's dealing with memory, the victories and the trauma of
22:32
S1: the past in such a way that it doesn't impact
22:35
S1: us in the present. And sometimes we live in the past.
22:38
S1: We can't move beyond it. I've met people like that.
22:42
S1: I've met people like that. Their entire conversation was the
22:47
S1: trauma and pain of the past, resulting in bitterness in
22:52
S1: the present. By the grace of God, however, we can
22:56
S1: move on. By the grace of God, we can.
22:59
S3: Yeah. I had lunch with a man not more than
23:03
S3: three weeks ago who was demonstrating exactly what you said.
23:08
S3: The whole conversation was over the pain and hurt that
23:12
S3: happened 30 years ago.
23:13
S4: Yeah.
23:15
S3: Yeah. You know, and I just kind of walked away
23:17
S3: with tears in my eyes to think that he would
23:20
S3: allow what happened, even though what happened was wrong, but
23:23
S3: he would allow that to continue to impact his life
23:28
S3: in a negative way.
23:29
S4: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
23:31
S1: Well, you know what's interesting? Um, Joseph named, um, after
23:39
S1: he rises to God exalt him. He's in power now
23:42
S1: in Egypt. It said, um, Joseph named his firstborn Manasseh,
23:48
S1: for he said, now listen to this. God has made
23:52
S1: me forget all my trouble and all of my father's household.
23:59
S1: I don't think he's saying that he's had a lapse
24:02
S1: of memory.
24:03
S4: Yeah.
24:04
S1: It seems to me that this means that God has
24:06
S1: enabled him to move on in the trauma of being
24:10
S1: trafficked out by his own family.
24:13
S3: Yeah.
24:13
S1: It's not going to impact him in the present. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:19
S2: Thank you for joining us for the Building Relationships with
24:22
S2: Doctor Gary Chapman podcast. He's the author of the New
24:25
S2: York Times best seller, The Five Love Languages. Our guest
24:28
S2: today is Doctor Winfred Neeley, author of A Love to
24:31
S2: Live By Rediscovering Agape Love in Scripture. That's our featured
24:35
S2: resource at Building relationships.us. Or find out more at five
24:41
S2: Love languages.com. And remember, you can ask a question of
24:45
S2: Doctor Chapman when you call our listener line. If you
24:48
S2: have a relationship struggle or a love language question, call
24:51
S2: 1-866-424-4279 and leave your question. You might hear an answer
24:58
S2: on an upcoming broadcast. 1866424. Gary.
25:05
S3: Doctor Neeley we often hear the word tough. Love is
25:09
S3: agape love at times. Tough love. If so, what does
25:14
S3: that look like?
25:15
S1: Yes, at times agape love has to be tough because
25:25
S1: we can enable people. I have a chapter in the
25:30
S1: book devoted to that, to that topic, I entitled that
25:36
S1: chapter prayerfully and wisely directed love. You know, for example,
25:45
S1: what if one of your. Friends has fallen upon drug addiction?
25:58
S1: That happens unfortunately.
26:01
S4: Mhm.
26:02
S1: And they want to bring you into it. They want
26:07
S1: to you to you know, you know, and I tell
26:11
S1: the story of, of, of a friend of mine. I
26:14
S1: know him very well. I mean, this is public knowledge.
26:17
S1: How he um he was, he would go to his
26:21
S1: sister's house in the middle of the winter. He was,
26:25
S1: he was homeless, a heroin addict. And she would let
26:29
S1: him in to the house and he would bring in
26:31
S1: all of the filth and the stench. And, uh, he
26:38
S1: would go upstairs and take a bath, and she would
26:41
S1: feed him. And the house was something of a disaster
26:45
S1: when he left. And so one time he went, she
26:49
S1: didn't let him in. He knocked on the door. He
26:51
S1: knocked on the door. He she didn't let him in. And, uh,
26:58
S1: he told me he had an epiphany. He said I
27:01
S1: was there aren't going to let me in. And he
27:04
S1: sat on those stairs in front of her house and
27:09
S1: cried like a little baby in the middle of the
27:12
S1: winter in Chicago with a pair of gym shoes on
27:16
S1: and no socks. He sat there and sobbed. But you
27:22
S1: know what he did. He went and checked himself into
27:26
S1: a drug rehabilitation center. Stayed there for an entire year.
27:33
S1: By the grace of God, the addiction was broken. And
27:38
S1: when he was leaving, when they were discharging him, the
27:43
S1: person who met him was his sister, who a year
27:47
S1: earlier did not let her into her home. Not because
27:54
S1: she didn't care, but precisely because she did not, because
27:58
S1: she did not love. Because she had the courage to
28:03
S1: love in the biblical sense.
28:06
S4: Yeah.
28:06
S1: So yeah, the agape love is just that, this mere
28:10
S1: sentimental fluff. It has steel in it and is willing
28:17
S1: to make the hard decisions that are necessary for the
28:21
S1: highest good and flourishing of the other.
28:24
S4: Yeah. Yeah.
28:26
S3: You know, I've sometimes said in my counseling office, when
28:29
S3: a wife is there and her husband has been physically
28:32
S3: abusive to her numerous times, I believe love says, honey,
28:39
S3: I love you too much to stay here and let
28:43
S3: you do something that you know in your heart is wrong.
28:47
S3: I'm going to move in with mother. I'm not divorcing you.
28:50
S3: I'm willing to go for counseling with you. I'm willing
28:53
S3: to do anything for you to get treatment. But I
28:55
S3: love you too much to just sit here and let
28:58
S3: you continue doing something that's not only hurting me, but
29:01
S3: hurting you. That's tough love.
29:04
S4: Yeah.
29:06
S1: May there be more of her kind.
29:08
S3: Absolutely. Yeah. So your book explores several New Testament passages.
29:14
S3: Which text became the anchor for this project, and why
29:17
S3: did it speak so powerfully to you?
29:20
S1: I the text and First John were the were the
29:27
S1: anchor text for me, mainly because these were the texts
29:33
S1: that God used to change my life. So in First John,
29:38
S1: you know, it's been said that the apostle Paul was
29:42
S1: the apostle of faith. Peter was the apostle of hope,
29:47
S1: and John was the apostle of. Or is the apostle
29:51
S1: of love. And it was something about this idea of, of,
29:58
S1: of love Being of God and that God is love
30:07
S1: was such a powerful statement to me, and I'm still
30:14
S1: reveling in it. You know, it's a funny thing when
30:17
S1: you're an author. The book is written. I'm thinking to myself, boy,
30:20
S1: I wish I would have said this. I wish I
30:21
S1: would have said that, you know? You know what I'm
30:23
S1: talking about. I wish I could, I wish I could
30:26
S1: have added that, and I wish I could have devoted
30:32
S1: an entire chapter to God is Love, right? That's that's
30:40
S1: an anchor for me. God is I mean, think about God,
30:45
S1: omnipotent all wise. Diving with oceans of. And ever wonder
31:02
S1: beyond words. God is love. It's just absolutely such a
31:12
S1: breathtaking statement. You know, I wish I could have lingered
31:16
S1: with that, with the notion that love has always been
31:22
S1: operative in God because he's Triune Father, son, and Holy Spirit.
31:30
S1: The fact that God is love implies the Trinity. Um,
31:34
S1: but he's the father. The son and the Holy Spirit
31:38
S1: were reveling in one another's infinite, ineffable, holy love from
31:45
S1: all eternity. And there never was. And I don't at
31:50
S1: that moment, if I can say it that way, when
31:52
S1: when the love of God was not in operation. I mean,
31:56
S1: that is a that's a stunning, breathtaking statement to me. Moreover,
32:04
S1: he wants the Godhead dynamics of love to be reproduced
32:12
S1: in our relationships with one another so that a local
32:17
S1: congregation represents Godhead dynamics in its relationships with one another.
32:24
S1: Absolutely stunning to me.
32:26
S3: Yeah. Well, you know, when you think in terms of
32:28
S3: the church, often we find people who disagree on particular
32:34
S3: issues in the church. But disagreement doesn't have to stifle love, right?
32:42
S1: No, it doesn't. And it and in fact, we should, uh,
32:46
S1: we should discuss our disagreements in love. Now, I have
32:53
S1: been married for 50 years. Uh, Mrs. Neely did not
32:58
S1: always agree with me. I did not always agree with Mrs. Neely.
33:05
S1: But people don't stay married for 50 years because they
33:10
S1: always agreed.
33:12
S3: HMM.
33:13
S1: But they determined that we would be committed to one
33:16
S1: another in love. Now, I must say, I have learned
33:20
S1: through the years that I don't make any major decisions
33:23
S1: in my life as Stephanie is in disagreement with it.
33:25
S1: I did when I was a young man, but I
33:27
S1: stopped doing that because I found out I was looking
33:30
S1: up and she never said, I told you so, but I,
33:34
S1: but I, I, I, I learned to stay out of Mrs.
33:40
S1: Neely's way and give and give due consideration, but I
33:45
S1: mean that I don't, I will not make any ministry
33:47
S1: decisions if Stephanie is not. Is is she? If she's not,
33:51
S1: is she if she's in disagreement with it. I'll wait
33:54
S1: until we have one as a mind about it, or
33:56
S1: I may have to take something else into consideration. Yeah, yeah.
33:59
S1: You know.
34:01
S3: Because we're a team, right? That's right. Yeah. I've often
34:04
S3: said to men it's foolish to make a decision limited
34:08
S3: to your own wisdom when God gave you a partner.
34:11
S1: Yeah.
34:12
S3: Hello.
34:15
S2: Look at you. Two. 115 years. Aggregate of of marriage
34:20
S2: experience here. Doctor Neely married 50 years Doctor Chapman, 65 years.
34:26
S2: And if you go to building relationships.us, you'll see Doctor
34:30
S2: Neely's book, A Love to Live by Rediscovering Agape Love
34:34
S2: in Scripture again. You can find out more at Building relationships.us.
34:39
S3: Doctor Neely, you argue that Christian love extends not only
34:43
S3: to fellow believers, but to all people. Yes. And as
34:47
S3: we mentioned earlier, even to our enemies. Now, that's a
34:51
S3: pretty radical vision of love, isn't it? I mean, you
34:55
S3: don't you don't hear that in non-Christian circles.
34:58
S1: You don't. And it is it is God's vision. It's
35:02
S1: God's vision of, of of of of love. You know,
35:07
S1: when I was, um, on staff, I was a teaching
35:10
S1: pastor of Lawndale Community Church on the west side of
35:14
S1: Chicago many, many years ago. And their mission statement is
35:19
S1: loving God and loving people. And so one of the
35:24
S1: things that we were asking ourselves, how can we love
35:29
S1: this community? Now, keep in mind, Lawndale at the time
35:32
S1: was probably the 15th poorest community in the United States,
35:36
S1: not in the state of Illinois, but in the United States.
35:38
S1: They had an infant mortality rate at one time that
35:40
S1: was hired in some third world countries right here on
35:42
S1: the west side of Chicago. Wow. Well, they loved the people.
35:46
S1: So what did they do? They started Lawndale Christian Health
35:49
S1: Center out of Love. They started Lawndale Christian Development Corporation
35:56
S1: because they loved the people and helped them with housing
36:01
S1: and home ownership. Uh, started the Hope House ministry because
36:07
S1: they were concerned about men who had been incarcerated, didn't
36:11
S1: have anywhere to go. So they we had a program
36:14
S1: for them so they could be reintegrated back into society
36:17
S1: and culture with a Christian base. Drug addicts were a
36:21
S1: part of the Hope House ministry. Uh, we we've got
36:26
S1: started the Justice Center, the express love to people, you know,
36:32
S1: so we were talking to people about Christ. Of course,
36:35
S1: you know, the gospel is the center of everything we do.
36:38
S1: But but it's coming out of our love for Christ
36:41
S1: and coming out of the gospel where we are showing
36:45
S1: love to The community started a justice clinic. That's really,
36:48
S1: really important. Just read about one of my dear friends
36:51
S1: who was a former student at Moody Bible Institute, is
36:54
S1: a wonderful pastor now. Came to know the Lord Jesus
36:57
S1: while he was in prison, and one of his friends
36:59
S1: was in prison. Just got out here recently for 52 years.
37:03
S1: He was in jail for 52 years and it was
37:05
S1: a crime he didn't commit. He did a crime he
37:08
S1: didn't commit. And that was one thing. He had to
37:09
S1: commit his crime, but he didn't do it. And we
37:10
S1: have that problem. So in love and love and concern
37:16
S1: in the name of Jesus, we try to make our
37:19
S1: criminal justice system more equitable and fair so that we're
37:23
S1: not incarcerating or even executing innocent people. Yeah. And this
37:28
S1: is what this is what it looks like to love
37:30
S1: all people, right? These, these are what I would call
37:34
S1: the implications of, of a full blown, robust biblical theology
37:42
S1: of agape love that encompasses everything that God says to us,
37:45
S1: from Genesis to Revelation. And it's because we have not
37:49
S1: understood this that we have gotten into trouble. And people
37:54
S1: consider the church to be apathetic and indifferent and unconcerned.
37:58
S1: And this is why we have to start loving one
38:01
S1: another and loving all people, including our enemies. If we
38:07
S1: did that, we would have a spiritual revolution on our hands.
38:11
S1: Why do you think Wilberforce fought against the slave trade? Well,
38:15
S1: he's encouraged by John Wesley. You know, revival is breaking
38:19
S1: out in England. Interestingly, you know, so we had child
38:25
S1: labor laws, you know, getting the kids out of their minds.
38:30
S1: When I came out of revival in the church and
38:33
S1: reaching out and love in every sphere of life where
38:37
S1: God has placed us. If we did that, we would
38:41
S1: represent more of God's kingdom agenda in our fallen world.
38:45
S3: Well, boy, that's a powerful reality that if every church
38:52
S3: in the country could adapt. You know? Yeah. The influence.
38:56
S1: Yeah. Can you imagine what would happen if the entire
39:01
S1: body of Christ decided we are going to a a
39:06
S1: practice agape love in everything, beginning now.
39:11
S3: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's take this whole thing to marriage.
39:17
S3: And let's say there's a listener whose spouse is very,
39:21
S3: very difficult. Are there practical steps to cultivate a heart
39:26
S3: that reflects this kind of love in a very, very
39:30
S3: difficult marriage?
39:32
S1: Well, that's a good question. It's a complex question. And
39:40
S1: also depends upon what kind of difficulty you talked about
39:46
S1: earlier about, you know, wife saying to her husband, I
39:50
S1: love you too much. Uh, for for this to be
39:56
S1: to accept this or I'm going to go do such
39:58
S1: and such, I'm going to leave so forth and so
39:59
S1: on for you to get help. It, it could be
40:04
S1: that more is required from the husband. It's one of
40:09
S1: the reasons why marriage is so difficult. Right. Mhm. So,
40:14
S1: you know, when we talk about we talk about Gary,
40:17
S1: I mean, you're an expert in this, the love language
40:19
S1: and so forth and so on. I think if I'm
40:22
S1: loving in an agape sense, I will find out what
40:25
S1: your love language is.
40:26
S3: Right.
40:27
S1: You see what I'm saying? I will find out. I
40:29
S1: will find out what that is. And I will take
40:31
S1: steps to try to, uh, to move, move in, in
40:36
S1: that direction. See Stephanie's love language is quality time. That's
40:43
S1: her love language. She wants to spend time with me,
40:50
S1: which is okay. This is what she wants. Touch is
40:53
S1: my lovely physical touch. I just need to be touch.
40:55
S1: And I'm good, okay? Just touch me, baby, and I'm okay.
40:58
S1: And I'm okay.
41:00
S3: I'm okay.
41:01
S1: Stephanie wants to spend. She wants to spend time with me.
41:05
S1: And I understand that. So out of agape love, I
41:09
S1: spend time with her. And then she's better. When I
41:13
S1: don't spend time with Stephanie, she's upset. Right? And she
41:17
S1: lets me know, even to this very day. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Winfred,
41:21
S1: you've got to come down out of the office now
41:23
S1: because I'm a student, I love study, I love reading,
41:26
S1: I love preaching, I, you know, I, you know, but
41:30
S1: I have I have a wife and I have to
41:32
S1: take care of her. And I think those are some
41:35
S1: of the things that, we can do and I am
41:39
S1: encouraged younger husbands to. You might want to help your
41:42
S1: wife with the baby. Now, I know Gen Zs and
41:45
S1: some of the younger millennials are a little bit more
41:47
S1: keen to that. But me as a baby boomer, I
41:50
S1: wasn't even helping my wife change diapers. I wasn't getting
41:53
S1: up at night. And it was when I was preparing
41:56
S1: this sermon, uh, back in Senegal some years ago. Think
42:00
S1: about this now. I'm a missionary. I'm a pastor. I've
42:03
S1: already go to language school and I'm working in this country.
42:07
S1: And the Spirit of God says to me, whenever I
42:08
S1: need you to love your wife as Christ loved the church. Well,
42:10
S1: what do you want me to do? Want me to
42:11
S1: take her out to dinner? And so forth and so on? No,
42:14
S1: I want you to go in there and change your
42:15
S1: son's diaper and give him a bottle.
42:21
S3: Yes, yes, yes.
42:22
S1: Yeah. You know what happened? I struggled for what seemed
42:28
S1: like an eternity because I realized for the first time,
42:34
S1: I think how deeply selfish I was.
42:39
S3: Mhm. Mhm.
42:40
S1: And I said yes to the Holy Spirit. And the
42:42
S1: Spirit of God filled me and with his presence, as
42:46
S1: I was changing my son's diaper and giving him a bottle,
42:49
S1: you know, I'm thinking, okay, Lord. And I think one
42:52
S1: of the things that will that we have to come
42:56
S1: to terms with and difficult marriages is for both people
43:00
S1: involved in it, that all of us are profoundly selfish,
43:05
S1: and we need the Spirit of God to help us
43:07
S1: move beyond our our self-centeredness in order to reach out
43:13
S1: and love to our husband or wife.
43:15
S3: Yeah. No question about it. I've sometimes challenged Christian leaders,
43:21
S3: whether it's a husband or a wife and their spouse
43:23
S3: is not, uh, you know, loving them in a way
43:28
S3: that's meaningful. What would what about a six month experiment
43:32
S3: in which you say to God, I want to speak
43:34
S3: their love language at least once a week for six
43:37
S3: months and just see what happens. And over and over again,
43:42
S3: I've seen that other person begin to melt. Yeah. Because
43:45
S3: we all need to feel loved, especially in a marriage.
43:49
S3: And when you take the initiative, whether it's a husband
43:51
S3: or a wife, you take the initiative to love them
43:54
S3: in a way that's meaningful to them. You're touching. You're
43:57
S3: influencing them in the most positive way you can influence them,
44:00
S3: you know? So and love and love stimulates love. The
44:03
S3: Bible says it does.
44:05
S1: Amen. Amen. And that's and that's what agape love will do.
44:09
S3: How does understanding God's love for us change the way
44:15
S3: we love others?
44:17
S1: Well, when we have experienced God's love in the power
44:25
S1: of the Holy Spirit, it softens our heart. And as
44:30
S1: we remember that, you know, God loved us first. We
44:35
S1: do not merit his love. We do not deserve that love.
44:40
S1: He loved us unconditionally. And we the Scripture tells us
44:46
S1: to be imitators of God. And you know, and walk
44:51
S1: in love as Christ has loved us and gave himself
44:54
S1: for us an offering and a sacrifice to God. We
44:59
S1: understand that I have to love unconditionally, that I have
45:04
S1: to sacrifice and do what's best for the highest good
45:10
S1: of the other, without any kind of hidden agendas. And yet,
45:17
S1: I recognize that I cannot do it in my own strength.
45:21
S1: So I have to pray and ask God for strength. God,
45:26
S1: would you help me today? Would you enable me today?
45:30
S1: There is something in me. Deep, deep in my flesh
45:35
S1: that's resistant. I need you to help me break the power. Well,
45:40
S1: you've already broken the power of sin at the cross.
45:44
S1: But may I yield to you today? And we tell
45:49
S1: other people about our commitment. Because accountability is important to
45:55
S1: let people know what we're doing. Have people in our
45:59
S1: inner circle to ask us how we're doing. And I
46:03
S1: think it was, I think it was H.B. London some
46:06
S1: years ago who said that, uh, each one of us
46:09
S1: is one step away from failure. Therefore, none of us
46:13
S1: dare live without accountability. And so we need to have
46:17
S1: these kind of accountability relationships in our lives where people
46:21
S1: are asking us, you know, how are you doing? You know,
46:23
S1: those little questions spur us on and and stir us
46:27
S1: to keep our commitments to love other people.
46:30
S3: Yeah. Yeah. And as Christians, we certainly have outside help, right? Oh, yeah.
46:36
S3: Romans chapter five and verse five. The love of God
46:39
S3: is poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
46:42
S3: That's right. I had a lady asked me one time,
46:44
S3: can you love your husband if you hate him? And
46:48
S3: my answer eventually was, yes, you can. And I said,
46:53
S3: you have God's help.
46:57
S1: Amen.
46:57
S3: Well, doctor, let me thank you for being with us
47:00
S3: today and also for the time you invested in energy
47:03
S3: in writing this book. I think it's going to help
47:06
S3: anyone who is willing to read it, because I think
47:10
S3: God's going to use it. So again, thank you for
47:12
S3: what you've done in writing the book, and thank you
47:14
S3: for being with us today.
47:16
S1: Well, thank you, Doctor Chapman. It was a privilege and
47:18
S1: honor to be with you.
47:20
S2: What an encouraging conversation with Doctor Winfred Neeley today. And
47:23
S2: if you want to find out more about our featured resource,
47:26
S2: just go to the website Building relationships.us. You'll see the
47:30
S2: book right there. I love to live by rediscovering agape
47:34
S2: love and scripture. Again, go to Building relationships.us.
47:39
S3: And next week, your questions about the love languages and
47:43
S3: your relationships.
47:45
S2: Call and leave your message for our Dear Gary broadcast
47:48
S2: right now at 1866424. Gary, maybe you have a question
47:53
S2: about how to love that difficult person in your life. (866) 424-4279.
48:00
S2: Big thank you to Steve Wick and Janice backing for
48:03
S2: their production work. Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is
48:06
S2: a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers,
48:10
S2: a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.