Latest / Drive with John Perlman / National Intelligence Coordinating Committee, Dr Ntandazo Sifolo was Thursday's witness at the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry

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National Intelligence Coordinating Committee, Dr Ntandazo Sifolo was Thursday's witness at the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry · Drive with John Perlman

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Let's walk the.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Talk.
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  Speaker 3: 7.02.
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  Speaker 2: 21 minutes after 3 o'clock, you'd remember that acting coordinator
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: of the National Intelligence Coordinating Committee, Dr. Ndandazo Sifolo, was
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  Speaker 2: at the Matlanga Commission, appeared at the Matlanga Commission, I
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  Speaker 2: should say, and had warned that media freedom must not
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  Speaker 2: come at the expense of national security. Sifolo has highlighted
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: the delicate balance between media freedom and the need to
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: protect National Security emphasised that media's responsibility to inform the
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  Speaker 2: public without compromising state security, which right is more important.
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  Speaker 2: Joining us to give us more insight on this appearance
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  Speaker 2: is Tolo Tsoku, EWN reporter. Tolo, thanks for joining us.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. Good afternoon.
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  Speaker 1: Good afternoon, Thabo. Thank you so much for having me.
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  Speaker 2: We remember that Sefoloh had initially sought to testify behind
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  Speaker 2: closed doors. He's raising this very delicate balance between national
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  Speaker 2: security and media freedom. What else did he say on
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  Speaker 2: the subject?
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  Speaker 1: That's correct. In actual fact, Dr. Sefora has made some very,
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  Speaker 1: very explosive revelations here at the commission. In fact, he
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  Speaker 1: has spoken about the problematic conduct of the IGI as
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  Speaker 1: well as IDAC. I mean, he has spoken about how
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  Speaker 1: the IGI was releasing reports, rather giving people, members of
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  Speaker 1: the public, members of the media, reports that were classified.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, he's also spoken about about how they picked
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  Speaker 1: up from one specific, one person that really posts a
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  Speaker 1: lot on social media. This is Patricia Machel. And they
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  Speaker 1: picked up that she actually had these reports because when
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  Speaker 1: she would post on social media, she would post information
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  Speaker 1: that nobody else would have but the IGI. Just take
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  Speaker 1: a listen to how Dr. Cifalo says they picked up
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  Speaker 1: on those wrongdoings from the IGI and Patricia Machel.
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  Speaker 3: It lists a number of people and then puts a
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  Speaker 3: wrong person there, Brigadier Fanfuren. There was never Brigadier Fanfuren
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  Speaker 3: in the list of the people that were arrested on
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  Speaker 3: that day. But where was Brigadier Fanfuren? Brigadier Fanfuren is
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  Speaker 3: in the IG's report, is the one who's recommended to
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  Speaker 3: be arrested as well for the matters that are found
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  Speaker 3: in the report. From the intelligence reading, then you then
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  Speaker 3: get to say, it looks like this person was given
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  Speaker 3: a brief, but when it was time for them to
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  Speaker 3: publish things, did not publish the right thing, because on
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  Speaker 3: that day, there was never Brigadier Fanfuren who was arrested
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  Speaker 3: on that day. It was the other ones that were arrested.
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  Speaker 3: And then, of course, there is the attribution there to
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  Speaker 3: a parliamentary person that Fidel Adams.
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  Speaker 2: We did it.
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  Speaker 3: So it shows that this is a coordinated effort to
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  Speaker 3: ensure that something is happening.
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  Speaker 2: So he was very hesitant, especially to appear before the
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  Speaker 2: commission in full view of the cameras. But that also
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  Speaker 2: didn't stop him from revealing some other sensitive material and
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  Speaker 2: mentioning that if there was no content monitoring, South Africa
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  Speaker 2: would be more in danger.
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  Speaker 1: No, that's correct. In actual fact, Dr. Asifolu, when he
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  Speaker 1: was just concluding his testimony now for public hearings, he
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  Speaker 1: actually said, had Nikok's brother not taken over these operations,
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  Speaker 1: the country will be gone. He actually speaks also about
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  Speaker 1: how they briefed President Ramaphosa just six days about the
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  Speaker 1: infiltration of... crime syndicates within the criminal justice system. And
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  Speaker 1: we do know that on the 6th of July, then
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  Speaker 1: that's when Ndantam Kwanazi had that famous briefing. But he
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  Speaker 1: also says, relating to that specific briefing, Thabo, is that
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  Speaker 1: this briefing was not an effort, the effort of just
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  Speaker 1: one individual. So it seems as possibly a lot of
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  Speaker 1: high-ranking officials actually knew what was coming on.
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  Speaker 3: The 6th of July.
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  Speaker 2: He draws, as we say goodbye, before we say goodbye, Thabo,
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  Speaker 2: he draws a very... unfortunate picture of the South African police,
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  Speaker 2: which we've now become accustomed to, that unfortunately they were
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  Speaker 2: not as briefed as intelligence. They were not as briefed
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  Speaker 2: as they ought to have been. And it appears as
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  Speaker 2: if some information was mishandled deliberately in order to misguide
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  Speaker 2: the work of the intelligence.
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  Speaker 1: No, that's correct. I mean, he speaks about how there
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  Speaker 1: seems to have been efforts to ensure that people who
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  Speaker 1: are actually fighting these criminal syndicates, that they become victimized.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, he was drawing reference to that IGI report
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  Speaker 1: that actually spoke about the likes of General Dumisani Kumalo,
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  Speaker 1: the likes of General Falima Semula, and actually recommending that
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  Speaker 1: those generals be arrested. And he says... He does not
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  Speaker 1: understand how that report even got to the public domain
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  Speaker 1: before ASNICOC, they even got it. But he also speaks
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  Speaker 1: about how that report itself was actually released before it
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  Speaker 1: had even been completed. So he is really, really concerned,
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  Speaker 1: but also he speaks about how it is important going
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  Speaker 1: forward that all structures of crime intelligence and such really
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  Speaker 1: work together. But also importantly, Thabo, he says that If
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  Speaker 1: it had gotten so bad, rather, the criminal syndicates had
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  Speaker 1: infiltrated so badly that they were prepared for everybody to
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  Speaker 1: be fired and the country to start from scratch. So
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  Speaker 1: that's how bad it had become.