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Yoreh De’ah 177:14-16. Interest: Late Fees and Penalties · SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day!

• 0:02
  OK, good morning. We are continuing with Ribis kuf
• 0:06
  Einzhein. OK, today's topic is penalties,
• 0:11
  late, late fee penalties. Is that mutter?
• 0:14
  Is that ribis? OK, so let's read it inside and
• 0:18
  then we'll go through it. You're Dalit Helma la Caveira
• 0:24
  person tells his friend Imlo Efraq al Isman paloni hareni
• 0:29
  khaya blaha in action ulismani eku kak dinarin.
• 0:36
  So a person wants to give a loan, a regular loan, there's no
• 0:40
  ribis, but just a free loan, 100%.
• 0:44
  But then he wants to put in a clause that if you pay me late,
• 0:49
  there's going to be a one time late fee, cash for cash.
• 0:53
  We'll see why I say that. In other words, for example, you
• 0:58
  lend $100 and you want to get back and you want to get back
• 1:04
  the $100. That's what the agreement is.
• 1:06
  There's nothing wrong with that. But then you put in the clause,
• 1:09
  well, I need the money back in 30 days.
• 1:12
  If you don't pay me on time once 30 days lapses, you pay me
• 1:16
  afterwards and now you have to pay me $110.
• 1:19
  Is that permitted? So that's the case.
• 1:22
  So you so it's Hagar, right? You're going to be from now
• 1:29
  you're going to be higher. OK, Meyakshavv for cash.
• 1:38
  For cash. It doesn't matter.
• 1:39
  And believe it matters. It's the same thing.
• 1:40
  But the clause meyakshavv is important when you keep on
• 1:45
  reading. But you so the guy just points
• 1:48
  out you tear me Marshall about any amount more doesn't matter.
• 1:52
  You know, a dollar amount, percent amount, anything extra
• 1:56
  aser MI pine Haramas ribis. So this is it's an aser
• 2:01
  derabanam and it's it's not regular ribis derabanam.
• 2:06
  It's not a vac ribis. It's the third category, the
• 2:10
  least severe category, but it's also aser derabanam.
• 2:15
  It's called Haramas ribis. It looks like ribis.
• 2:17
  It smells like ribis. It's not Ribis because Ribis is
• 2:22
  when you make an agreement that's for the delay of time
• 2:26
  you're going to pay, you're going to pay something for that
• 2:30
  delay of time here. Just pay on time.
• 2:33
  And there's no, it's just there's nothing extra to pay.
• 2:36
  You're not paying for the usage of the money for the 30 days.
• 2:41
  You're paying for something else.
• 2:43
  It's a late fee. It's definitely not Ribis.
• 2:46
  It's on a so on a Derisa, it's technically certainly not Ribis
• 2:50
  Derisa. It's certainly not Ribis, but
• 2:53
  it's this haramas Ribis happens to be a Mahokis Rishonian.
• 2:56
  If it is, but the halacha is that it is.
• 2:59
  So let's let's keep reading. I don't see anything.
• 3:08
  Fine, let's go on Haga aviation Matiri.
• 3:14
  And some say it's a matter one second.
• 3:20
  Sorry, let me keep reading the Asia matirin innote Lomaot wait.
• 3:24
  OK, So what did we establish that anytime you're going to pay
• 3:29
  a late fee of cash for a loan of cash, it's a completely user of
• 3:36
  Harama service. That's that's the Halakhabsuka.
• 3:40
  However, there is one way to to make a late fee when it's a cash
• 3:47
  loan. Vyesh mateerin in no TE Loma OT
• 3:51
  uma Kabel pirot. That's if the loan is cash.
• 3:56
  But then the the kanas is going to be in Pirot.
• 4:04
  Not just the kanas, the whole thing Vyesh vyesh lahakil bazaar
• 4:08
  and one could be Meiko le chakila.
• 4:12
  Let me explain. So a loan with a late fee of
• 4:19
  cash, that's us, Sir Haramasrabis.
• 4:22
  But anytime we're going to see this a little bit more, but I'll
• 4:25
  just say it out. Anytime you have a late fee,
• 4:30
  it's Mutter. When it's Derrick Mecher, if
• 4:34
  it's for a purchase, you buy something and he doesn't pay on,
• 4:37
  he doesn't you, you get the object today and he doesn't pay.
• 4:41
  You agree he's going to pay in 10 days.
• 4:44
  So that's Mutter, but as you're allowed to make a late fee
• 4:51
  again, just remember making an A discount with two different
• 4:56
  prices. If you pay me today or you pay
• 4:58
  me tomorrow, that we learnt is user.
• 5:00
  That's not what's going on over here.
• 5:02
  There's no two, there's no two prices.
• 5:04
  That's what we learnt previously weeks ago.
• 5:07
  Now we're talking about a late fee.
• 5:10
  You're supposed to pay me X amount.
• 5:12
  I'm let's say I'm giving you the merchandise today and you're
• 5:15
  going to pay me in 30 days. And that's the agreement.
• 5:18
  That's 100% much there. There's one price and that's the
• 5:20
  agreement. And then if you're late on that
• 5:24
  30 days, since it's a Bahira, there's no cash going to him and
• 5:28
  then cash going back, cash to him and cash back.
• 5:31
  That looks like a, that looks like Ribis.
• 5:33
  So then that's what's Essa here. It's a it's a, it's a purchase.
• 5:38
  Anytime you make a purchase and there's a you're late on that
• 5:42
  purchase, It's smutter to have a one time late fee, a recurring
• 5:47
  late fee every 10 days, every 30 days you have to pay more and
• 5:50
  pay more and pay more. So that looks like ribis and
• 5:54
  that's what's us. Again, some things are, I don't
• 5:56
  want to use the word arbitrary, but there's obviously a little
• 5:59
  bit of a Gray area, what looks like ribis and what doesn't.
• 6:01
  But anyways, that's a lot. Anytime you pay more, there's a
• 6:04
  recurring, you know, for every 30 days yet then that looks like
• 6:09
  it certainly looks like Redis because that's what you know,
• 6:13
  that's what you're lending money for a period of time.
• 6:15
  And so anyways, you keep getting so that's and you can't change
• 6:20
  the and then it's due when it is when you yeah, anytime.
• 6:26
  So then once you and once you get this late fee, the first
• 6:33
  time is mutter that late fee can't make it mutter for you to
• 6:37
  pay it another month. It's not like when the late fee
• 6:39
  kicks in now we give you a grace period for longer.
• 6:43
  So that's also going to be a Ribis issue.
• 6:48
  So that's the that's basically the same, same thing for
• 6:51
  services, for wages rentals. That's always going to be a
• 6:56
  mutter because it's not doesn't look like it's on a loan of
• 7:00
  cash. So any of those cases are mutter
• 7:03
  for a one time late fee. So now that I explain that and
• 7:06
  we'll see it here what the Rama is saying, he's saying like
• 7:10
  this, there is a way to build in, in the contract a late fee
• 7:16
  even with a a loan of cash. You say like this, your our
• 7:21
  original example is $100 for 30 days.
• 7:24
  I'm lending you for free $100.30 days.
• 7:28
  I want the money back. Everyone agrees to it.
• 7:31
  So can you make a late fee of $10?
• 7:34
  We said no. But what you could do is you say
• 7:37
  like this, it's in the contract that a day 30 or day 31, if you
• 7:44
  didn't pay me. So now you owe me merchandise, I
• 7:49
  don't know, potatoes, whatever MP3 player, whatever you want it
• 7:54
  to be. You owe me a merchandise that
• 7:57
  have a value of $110. You know, pick something you can
• 8:01
  use, you can resell whatever. So now you are getting a real,
• 8:06
  you're getting a late fee. You're getting, you're getting
• 8:08
  something worth $110 instead of 100.
• 8:12
  Must be merchandise if it's money.
• 8:15
  That's, that's what we just said is Haramas Ribis.
• 8:17
  Because then it looks like, it looks like you give a guy $100
• 8:22
  for a month and now he pays you back $110.00.
• 8:24
  So that's what we call Haramas Ribis.
• 8:27
  But if it's a merchandise, we learned any time ribis doesn't,
• 8:31
  you know, normal Ribis generally ribis suits is cash for cash.
• 8:36
  So that's what smells most like Ribis here.
• 8:39
  Whenever it's a one time late fee for merchandise, we say it's
• 8:42
  Mutterla Khila and therefore the agreement is meh.
• 8:48
  Akshav from right now, it's like Lemah Freya.
• 8:52
  We say this wasn't a loan, this was a purchase and therefore it
• 8:56
  works with the merchandise. It also works the inverse
• 9:00
  converse, whatever is appropriate.
• 9:02
  The other way around that if you sell an item and then he comes
• 9:07
  and he's late, so then you can you pay back money or if you
• 9:12
  lend an item, you pay back money later.
• 9:15
  It just has to be where it's, it's Derek Mecher.
• 9:19
  We'll see the case. I think it's in Yerkut or it's
• 9:22
  like the opposite. So the Rama says yeh sahaka
• 9:25
  lazet bazet and then look and then he says we had something
• 9:31
  similar case of a different haramas ribis.
• 9:34
  In haramas ribis that category is rare but it did apply in
• 9:39
  kufsa Mushkilm and IM avar vasarama beribis aim with Singh
• 9:43
  Miyada. And the truth is, if a person
• 9:46
  agrees to it, haramas ribis, if that's in the contract, it's not
• 9:51
  ribis kutsa, it's not evak ribis.
• 9:53
  And he's hired to pay it. Unlike ribis.
• 9:56
  Even evak ribis #1 you're hired to pay it because you agreed to
• 10:00
  it. And it's not real ribis, it's
• 10:02
  just our ribis. And so you have to pay.
• 10:05
  And certainly once you pay, aim with Simiado Basin is not going
• 10:09
  to make you return it. Even evak ribis, you don't have
• 10:11
  to return. OK, so I think mostly covers,
• 10:16
  mostly covers late fees. We'll see a bit more as we keep
• 10:19
  reading. Now something interesting does
• 10:24
  this Rama, and it's when you just read the Sholkhanarak
• 10:28
  itself. There's no way to have a late
• 10:30
  fee penalty when you lend cash when you read the Rama, he adds.
• 10:36
  There is a way if you transform the loan into a Mahira, if it's
• 10:42
  mamish and Mahir or not, OK, it's separate discussion but it
• 10:45
  becomes like a Mahira for all tents and purposes to remove the
• 10:49
  haramas ribis. So then what's the din?
• 10:57
  I don't know. You'll see in the post game it's
• 11:00
  either like a Mahira ISM Mahira, whatever it is OK, but what was
• 11:07
  I going to say? What about the Shalkhanarak?
• 11:08
  Does he agree with this Kula of the Rama that you can make a
• 11:12
  late fee into into merchandise? So the Shah says Mufura she
• 11:16
  agrees this this Yeh materian is not to argue he's just to add,
• 11:21
  but it is a Mahloka Sakharonim. The Shah Hassa de la film say
• 11:27
  it's mutter for the according to the Shalkhanarak and Tiferous
• 11:34
  Lamocha. Others I think are and you be a
• 11:36
  Omar Abadiya. Just give you the source.
• 11:39
  What is it? Hey, look, all of your idea
• 11:41
  you'd you'd gimel sif dalid. So there he writes, I believe he
• 11:45
  writes it's Asser according to the shalkhanara.
• 11:48
  But there certainly is some room to be Mako, even for Spartan in
• 11:54
  his case, because it's unclear what the shalkhanara holds.
• 11:57
  And one you two ways to read the Chauhanarath, especially when
• 12:02
  you read the Besiosef. I mean, he brings in he brings
• 12:05
  in this Rama too. So it's anyways, let's go on.
• 12:14
  OK, let's go on. Tet vav Hamid hayev lifroa
• 12:21
  lohoteno le. You don't need lizman ploni.
• 12:27
  This, this is the same. A person obligates when he
• 12:29
  marries off his daughter, he's going to give a gift for his.
• 12:33
  You don't eat bito his Mon ploni.
• 12:35
  He's going to pay a gift to his son-in-law at a certain time.
• 12:40
  He's going to pay a certain amount, a dowry.
• 12:43
  Now, this is it's. Yeah.
• 12:45
  So this is the halacha for any gift.
• 12:47
  Anytime a person obligates to give a gift and he stipulates
• 12:53
  I'm promising to give you a gift.
• 12:55
  And if I don't give it to you within 30 days, I'm imposing on
• 12:59
  myself a qanas, I'm going to give you even more, right?
• 13:02
  OK, can you do that? And if you delay what you, you
• 13:12
  know what you, you obligated yourself and you want and then
• 13:15
  you're late. I'll for example, I'll call a
• 13:19
  Srim dinar Mahem Shisha. She teamed the whole Kodesh.
• 13:23
  I'm going to give you more every month.
• 13:26
  Mutter you're allowed to she said Dom Mel and noting Matano
• 13:30
  la Caveiro, because it's like anytime you give a gift to your
• 13:33
  friends. Oh Merlot, I'm going to give it
• 13:37
  to you at such and such a time being low at Taylor's Mon Ploni.
• 13:42
  Oh, then you must see if it's always mutter to add a late fee
• 13:48
  penalty on yourself on a gift because it doesn't even look or
• 13:52
  smell like ribis. Ribis is you give money and you
• 13:56
  get money back more money back here.
• 13:59
  It's a gift. You never got anything that
• 14:01
  you're returning. So it's it's not even similar to
• 14:04
  ribis. It's mutter.
• 14:06
  OK, Ted, sign back to loans. IM hayevats militate Lamal
• 14:12
  bakkoth bakkoth bakkol shabua. What Milva?
• 14:19
  What Milva? OK, thank you.
• 14:25
  He made himself high to give the Malvet a certain amount every
• 14:31
  week. The Ochima aquev mamono.
• 14:35
  In other words, for every week I'm late, I'm going to pay you
• 14:40
  another whatever $10.00. For every week I'm late, I'm
• 14:44
  going to keep on paying you an additional late fee.
• 14:47
  So Hareza ribis, Gomorrah, this is 100% ribis.
• 14:51
  OK, depending on the case, maybe Suitsa, maybe Derabanan, but
• 14:55
  it's 100% ribis, 100% user and it's not Haramas ribis,
• 15:04
  including peros. You can't be giving more peros
• 15:07
  as a late fee every single month.
• 15:10
  Aga or every? Yeah, for every time.
• 15:14
  No, I'm assuming we're going to read it inside.
• 15:17
  I'm not sure, but I'll just point it out.
• 15:19
  Let's say you have a monthly obligation to pay monthly rent.
• 15:26
  You have a rental you have to pay every single month.
• 15:29
  So for every single month there's a separate fee you have
• 15:32
  to pay every month. So for every single month you
• 15:35
  can have a late fee. For every single month.
• 15:37
  Doesn't mean you get one late late fee in your lifetime.
• 15:40
  It's one late fee. You're allowed to have a one
• 15:43
  time late fee when you have a rental or Makira for every
• 15:48
  purchase for every time you have to pay.
• 15:51
  That's not OK. Just recurring on one one
• 15:55
  default. That's what's because that's
• 15:58
  what's the problem. I got Alpha, got the cut of the
• 16:00
  car. Derek Kanas, even though you
• 16:03
  wrote it as a Derek Kanas in law, every week I'm going to pay
• 16:09
  you extra. You have a para lo bismano lo
• 16:16
  Javi Khan, ribis Klau. That's not Ribis.
• 16:22
  If you would have paid on time, you call Malcolm.
• 16:31
  So it's true it's he doesn't have to be late, but if he is
• 16:35
  going to be late and you're adding for every single month.
• 16:37
  So you see the time factor is related to every single payment.
• 16:42
  So and the fiev and the obligation was there.
• 16:47
  So now there's ribis on that Cove that you have to pay.
• 16:50
  So and it's recurring. So then it becomes ribis Gomer
• 16:53
  Vechenikar and it's 100% aser alpha Gabi schmachilian
• 16:58
  vetirolova beribis. There is such an opinion out
• 17:02
  there that allows you to do such a thing, but you may not rely on
• 17:05
  it. OK, so that even the Rama who
• 17:09
  sometimes a little more Mako is Mahamrani's case, you're allowed
• 17:19
  to. So let's discuss it afterwards.
• 17:21
  But the principle is from Mahira A1 time late fee as mutter
• 17:26
  recurring as usser. Cash for cash is always usser.
• 17:30
  Let's your specific scenario. Let's work it out after.
• 17:34
  OK, OK, let's see if they don't want to say anything else, say
• 17:42
  give me one second. Yeah, also like the utility
• 17:52
  bills, recurring penalties. So to the best of my knowledge a
• 17:55
  one time late fee is mutter. But if it's going to be
• 17:59
  recurring, it's us Sir. But the post can say you're not
• 18:04
  obligated to lose the electricity in your building.
• 18:09
  So if the company is forcing you to pay recurring late fees, it's
• 18:15
  much there for you to pay because you're not obligated to
• 18:18
  lose money out of this penalty that someone is taking from you.
• 18:23
  Whether you call it Geneva, it's legal, not legal, whatever,
• 18:26
  that's all separate issue. But that's that's the the law,
• 18:31
  whatever, that's the obligation. They're going to cut off your
• 18:33
  electricity. So it's not your problem.
• 18:36
  Of course, if it's a Jewish company, it's best if they do
• 18:41
  what's it called Hetteriska, it's going never an issue and
• 18:48
  perhaps forget right now which direction it works, but maybe
• 18:51
  there's a cooler for an entity if you follow emotion.
• 18:56
  OK, But that's pretty much I think discusses as much as we
• 19:01
  can. I did have an interesting
• 19:03
  question, not to confuse you. So we said you're allowed to
• 19:06
  change the late fee into merchandise.
• 19:09
  So you paid you, you lend out $100, he doesn't pay you on
• 19:12
  time. You want to collect 110.
• 19:15
  He has to give you whatever potatoes, MP3 players, whatever
• 19:19
  your example is. My question is this, the
• 19:22
  contract is written correctly. You have to pay back
• 19:25
  merchandise. Now, two months later, the guy
• 19:27
  wants to pay you back. Can you go to you and say you're
• 19:31
  right, I owe you merchandise and that's what the contract says,
• 19:33
  but it's easier for me just to pay you cash.
• 19:36
  Can you then pay cash? In other words, the contract was
• 19:39
  written Kadasu Kaden, but he's giving you at the end of the
• 19:44
  day, he's giving you cash for cash.
• 19:45
  I don't, I didn't. I didn't find anyone who
• 19:48
  discusses it and whoever I asked basically punted on the
• 19:52
  question. So might be much there, but I'm
• 19:57
  not sure. So the contract is done
• 20:01
  correctly. It's done at a separate time, I
• 20:05
  guess. So that's that's that's the
• 20:06
  subject. It may be simple, I don't know.
• 20:12
  I think we something to point out just Verizon is pretty
• 20:23
  complete. So we're just going to point out
• 20:26
  that when you make up a penalty clause, it it can't be.
• 20:30
  This is really for Khoshin Mishbak.
• 20:32
  There's a concept called asmakhta that means you rely on
• 20:36
  something but not fully. In other words, you don't really
• 20:40
  think it's going to happen, right?
• 20:43
  We're all sometimes we may have heard of this more by gambling.
• 20:48
  You don't everyone, no one really believes they're going to
• 20:51
  lose, right? We all know the house always
• 20:53
  wins, but no one believes they're going to lose.
• 20:55
  So gambling is an issue, might be an issue of a smachta.
• 21:00
  OK, we'll get there when we get there, but that's not for here.
• 21:03
  My the point is a smachta here. The guy might be saying I know
• 21:09
  I'm going to pay on time, I'm not going to be late.
• 21:12
  So the question is, is that is that is there can you charge a
• 21:18
  late fee? Does it work?
• 21:20
  So in order to make sure it works, either the guy has to for
• 21:27
  it to be binding. So then for the penalty to be
• 21:30
  binding, it must be where the guy there's no problems of the
• 21:33
  guy not taking it seriously. So what the way to the best way
• 21:38
  to do it is you do it with in front of a Bayesdin or you write
• 21:42
  in the contract that it was done in the presence of a Bayesdin or
• 21:45
  as if it wasn't done in the presence of the basin.
• 21:48
  Doesn't have to really be in front of the basin.
• 21:50
  Just has to be that it was either written in the contract
• 21:54
  that it was accepted that this contract is if it was in front
• 21:57
  of the basin and then there's there's no renugging on this
• 22:02
  one. And it's it's a contractual or
• 22:05
  you use a standard contract. If it's a standard contract,
• 22:08
  then that's what's standard and everyone like everyone, you
• 22:13
  follow the Menega Medina and since it's standard there's
• 22:16
  you're not going to have an issue.
• 22:20
  What else? A failure.
• 22:25
  One other thing is sometimes it's he just points out there is
• 22:29
  a question about onus. If you couldn't pay the penalty,
• 22:32
  can you still pay it later on at the time when you were supposed
• 22:35
  to pay the penalty? There's a question a lot if it
• 22:38
  was onus if you still have to pay this penalty.
• 22:40
  So the best thing to write in the to write in the contract is
• 22:44
  you're obligating yourself to pay the late fee.
• 22:48
  Even at a time of onus that you weren't able to pay, you're
• 22:52
  still going to have to pay later on when you're able to pay fine.
• 22:56
  One other interesting point I think hopefully this might
• 22:59
  anyway is if you caught, if the late fee causes a financial
• 23:04
  damage, then it may, it may be reimbursed.
• 23:10
  You do have that option. Well, here, sorry, step back.
• 23:15
  Sorry. Can you volunteer to make a late
• 23:18
  fee? There is no late fee.
• 23:20
  You don't have to pay a late fee.
• 23:22
  That's a it's a loan 100 for 100.
• 23:24
  You turn 100 and that's it. But you're late and you feel
• 23:27
  bad. There was he never asked you for
• 23:29
  a late fee. Can you offer to pay a late fee?
• 23:32
  So it's not a gift for the loan, it's money for because you were
• 23:37
  so late. So then can you do that?
• 23:40
  So that's called ribis Melcheris, a late delayed
• 23:46
  payment. Oh, sorry.
• 23:48
  At the time you can't give, you can't give a gift for paying
• 23:52
  late at the same time because that looks like ribis.
• 23:56
  But you can come back when it's later and it's looks
• 24:00
  disconnected. And it's a question a week, a
• 24:02
  month, whatever is disconnected. You give a guy a gift, but you
• 24:08
  can't, it can't be a huge gift because then it's obvious.
• 24:12
  It's for the I mean, it's people give gifts, small gifts.
• 24:17
  Again, it might be a little obvious, but it's not so
• 24:18
  obvious. If you give a huge gift, then
• 24:21
  it's obvious it's for the loan. So that's usser.
• 24:24
  But ribis milcheres, if it's a small gift and you don't say
• 24:28
  with your mouth, this is for the loan, you're allowed to do ribis
• 24:32
  milcheres in that case. So that's when you're allowed to
• 24:37
  volunteer to pay a late fee. Also, if you cause damage by not
• 24:41
  paying on time, you're allowed to reimburse the person for
• 24:44
  damage. And how do you define that?
• 24:47
  It's beyond right now. But if he just takes a loan
• 24:51
  because he didn't get his money from you and he paid interest to
• 24:54
  a bank, that's not called damage, that's really for the
• 24:58
  ribis. And that the postgame say that
• 25:00
  that is a problem. And I think, Oh yeah, we'll
• 25:04
  stop. Well, there's 11 caveat to this.
• 25:08
  We're going to see it inside by a Moshko, but we'll stop here
• 25:13
  and we'll see it tomorrow.