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The Paraphilia Episode · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we Do what we Do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why We Do what We Do. I am your
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: curiously explorative host, Abraham.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: And I'm your kinky host Shane.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: that humans and non human animals do, and sometimes we
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: talk about the things that they do that are very
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: primary reinforcers. Yeah, and then maybe they have very specific
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: preferences around, which is to say, things that are biologically
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: relevant to the survival and continuity of our species.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: Yes, and so today we are going to talk about paraphilias,
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: which are going to be I think a fascinating discussion.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: I don't think it'll be a very long discussion, yeah,
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: but hopefully it's going to be a little bit of
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: a mythbusting discussion where you walk away with this with
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: a little bit more information, a little bit more understanding,
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: in a little bit less judgment towards folks who particular paraphilias.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that people are going to have a
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  Speaker 1: lot of pre fabricated ideas, thoughts, and values around what
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: is considered acceptable in this space. And I would definitely
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  Speaker 1: think as a goal for our discussion today, we would
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  Speaker 1: like people to leave feeling just more informed and I
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: think more or like maybe less judgmental about the sort
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: of moral direction that exists around this. If you will, yes,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: one hundred percent awesome. All right, Well, if you are
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: joining us for the first time, then welcome. I hope
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: that you enjoy what you hear in this discussion today.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: And if you are a returning listener, then welcome back.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: We're really happy that you have continued to seek us
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: out and find us as a thing that you would
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: like to listen to. And if you would like to
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: support what we do and have us continue to make
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: more and more of these episodes. One way that you
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: can do that is by joining us on Patreon. You
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: can leave us a rating and review, like subscribe, tell
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: a friend. Honestly, getting the word out there is like
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: one of the best things that can happen. So and
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: just you know, sharing us with someone else we very
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: much appreciate. But no matter how you got here, no
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: matter your level of interest in supporting us, I would
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: just say, however it shook out for you, a happy
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: father in law day, because that's what day it is
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: on this July thirtieth.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's also healthcare now Medicare's birthday.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Oh and death day.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: I was gonna say, I think we're gonna be celebrating
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: or you know, a celebration of life if you will
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: for Medicare soon.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, rip Medicare. Wow, so young, you know, I know,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: h tragic. Happy International Day of Friendship, Yes, lovely.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: It's also National Cheesecake Day, which is delicious.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: It is National chicken and Waffles today. I have never
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: been a big fan of sweet and savory, so this
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: is not so much my speed. But I have had
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: pretty decent plant based versions of this that are okay.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: The best version I've had was in Vegas, Okay, a
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: place called The Vegan, which was like, it was just
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: unbelievably good. They also had really good coconut shrimp. Okay,
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: nice vegan coca coconut trimp. So shrimp made of coconuts. Yeah,
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: shrimp made of coconuts is wild time. It's a reversal
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: of expectations.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: It is National Support Public Education Day again, re clebrating
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: that differently.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Rip public education. Yeah yeah, rip education more broadly, I
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: guess yep, yeah.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: It is National Whistleblowers Appreciation Day. We do appreciate whistle blowers.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah we do, I mean we do. Yeah. Maybe also
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: another rip sort of thing.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, also another rip thing. Uh, Happy
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: Paperback Book Day. Apparently like we're just in a dystopian
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: future here in the United States because paperback books are
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: probably gonna go the way of the buffalo soon if
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: this current administration has anything to do with it.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they burn easy, you know, so you know, yeah, Okay,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: it is a Share a Hug day. That's nice.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: That's something we desperately need right now. Apparently both of
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: the its are like so bummed out. It is World
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: Day against Trafficking in Persons.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is actually, interestingly a thing that we
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: might be seen a lot more of, is trafficking in persons. Yeah,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: now we are this is World Day against that, And
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: of course that is just a weirdly long way of
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: saying human trafficking for some reason. Yeah, and we are
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: anti human trafficking broadly as a podcast and as a people. Yeah,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: but that will be a thing that that is not rip. Unfortunately,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: that'd be a thing I would love to be able
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: to slap an rip on. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, exactly
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: too many people in power who who that's their bread
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: and butter for daily entertainment. Yeah, it is world Snorkeling Day.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Well that's also very lovely and wholesome. I like that.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: That's a lot of the wholesome levels here.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we gotta, we gotta, you know, sprinkle those in.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: We need some sprinkles on the mountain.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: It's a Hepatitis Awareness Week.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Oh well, yep, that's an the thing that under RFK
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Junior's leadership, we might be able to see a tremendous resurgence,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: or maybe of resurgence, but a tremendous epidemic level experience
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: of hepatizes.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I got a lot of disease.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: Put it in every home. Yeah, yeah, huge, every disease
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: in every home.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Gross.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It is International Listening Association Week. So if you
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: are listening to this podcast, then you are already halfway there.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: I think, good job. All right, Well, we don't just
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: make jokes about the holidays or list them. I'm not
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: sure how much of that was jokes. Most of it
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: was lamenting the state of things. But actually we talk
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: about things that are related to psychology, and one of
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: the things related to psychology is behavior, and one behavior
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: that most of us will do at some point in
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: some version has to do with reproductive activities. And so
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: before we dive into our topic at hand, we would
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  Speaker 1: like to issue a few disclaimers just understanding the nature
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: of the topic we're going to be discussing. Now, this
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: is not intended in any way to be like exploitative
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: or titillating, or I mean even really like we make
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of jokes and we try to bring levity
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: to the discussions that we have on this podcast, even
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: when they are hard discussions. But we're really not doing
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: this to be like shock value or anything like that.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: We are talking about sex things, So as a first disclaimer,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about sexual arousal and interest.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: So it's possible that this content is not suitable for
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: younger audiences or sensitive audiences, So just bear that in
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: mind as you go through it. As I said, we're
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: treating this as professionals. There's really no intention whatsoever for
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: this to be something where we're like, let's talk about
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: genitles TIHIHI.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: It is meant to be like a scientific discussion that's
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: also easily understood. But that being the case, you still
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: may not want to listen to that or have people
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: who are with you listening to that, so no know
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: that going into it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we're professionals here, folks, if you hadn't picked
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: it up, even if we giggle a lot, even if
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: we giggle so much. Disclaimer two is that we are
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  Speaker 3: also going to talk about sexual behavior across a wide spectrum,
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: so there may be some distressing topics that emerge, so
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: please listen at your own discretion. You do not have
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: to listen to the episode. If you don't want to,
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: you can turn it off as you need to, but
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: like it. We want to kind of approach this from
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: an objective, scientific manner, so we have to talk about
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: this wide spectrum. And I think the third thing that
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: I really want to point out to and I wrote
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: this before Abraham had a chance to read this, so
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  Speaker 3: you can certainly discredit me as I say this, but okay,
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  Speaker 3: I believe that our podcast takes a sex positive approach
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  Speaker 3: to understanding sexual behavior in general. Agree people like what
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: they like, they should be able to as long as
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: there's no harm that comes to others. And we want
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: to talk about this particular topic because we felt like
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: it would be good, a good opportunity to destigmatize.
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  Speaker 2: Something that people often misunderstand.
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  Speaker 3: So we are coming at this from a sex positive
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  Speaker 3: bias as a primary kind of like viewpoint.
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  Speaker 1: As we look at this, you implied something in there
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  Speaker 1: that we have said in other times that we have
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  Speaker 1: covered topics related to sex, but that is that consent
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  Speaker 1: is everything here. It is everything. We cannot advocate for
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  Speaker 1: or provide any kind of moral support for any kind
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  Speaker 1: of sexual behavior where you don't have consent among the
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: participants of that thing. And that being said, as long
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  Speaker 1: as you have that, then we can move forward with
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: a discussion understanding that we're all on the same page
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  Speaker 1: about that. And we also take that to mean that
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  Speaker 1: there are parties that cannot consent because they do not
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  Speaker 1: have the prerequisite sort of foundation necessary for being able
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  Speaker 1: to have informed consent, because consent is not consent if
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: it is not informed, and that means that children cannot consent.
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  Speaker 1: Children are off the table as far as a discussion
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  Speaker 1: about what entails appropriate sexual behavior because they cannot consent.
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  Speaker 1: It also means that like people who are otherwise coerced
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  Speaker 1: in any way cannot have consent. It also means that
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  Speaker 1: animals cannot provide consent. So just to make sure we're
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  Speaker 1: very clear. Consent is extremely important in all of this,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure we'll talk more about those sorts of
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: things in this discussion and others. But like people I
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: think always want to try and jump to, oh, you're
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  Speaker 1: advocating for all these gross things that people should be
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  Speaker 1: able to do, and what they mean is stuff like
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  Speaker 1: pedophilia and bestiality, and sure, no we are not, because
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  Speaker 1: it is consent, consent, consent, consent.
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: I do appreciate your new take on like detractor voice,
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: Like I do like that you're doing that the last
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: like this episode you've already done twice. You'll be like, well,
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: like it's like very like it feels like a Simpsons character.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: Well it's like, oh, appreciate that. Excuse me, Like so
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: I very appreciate I very much. I appreciate that.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: Thanks. You know, it just kind of came to me
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: on the fly. It was. It was not rehearsed at all.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe it will evolve, maybe it will stay
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: the same, but that's this current current detractor voice.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: I really do appreciate it.
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: So Okay, well, if we're if we're ready to go,
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  Speaker 3: let's go ahead and dive into a couple definitions. A
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: little bit background of this, because I think it's important
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: to kind of talk about the origin of the term
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: paraphilia now I'm ready comes from the Greek meaning beside
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: and aside and philos means loving, so paraphilos paraphilia I
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: kind of see how that might show up. But the
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: current term paraphilia was further developed from the German paraphili
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: or paraphilee periphilia coined by Frederick Solomon Krauss in nineteen
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: oh three.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: Just as a sort of a quick side note on Kraus,
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: he himself was a sexologist whose most famous publication was
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: a work called anthropofeychch Fitia. I'm gonna get Anthroprofytia. I'm
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: gonna say, yes, yeah, oh those tia, So maybe it's
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: in you know, we do that sometimes in English. This
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: was a collection of published works from nineteen oh four
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: to nineteen thirteen that focused on erotic and sexual folklore.
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  Speaker 1: Because of this work, he was arrested and charged as
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: a pornographer in Berlin.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: Yes, so you're gonna find that happens a lot with
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: sexologists over the last like century or so, is that
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: they're doing action research and then they get arrested for
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: being obscene when they're actually just doing research or collecting,
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: you know, documents and stuff like that. So that actually
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: happened with I just watched the documentary with on pee
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: Wee Herman, Paul Rubins pee Wee Herman, and he was
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: arrested for having like erotic art that was considered obscene,
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: that was like old erotic art. So that happened in
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: the nineties. So like this, this continues to happen.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as we go forward. Anyway, that's just quick aside.
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  Speaker 3: So a paraphilia, by definition, is a reoccurring or intense
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: sexual arousal and or gratification related to objects, places, situations, fantasies, behaviors,
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: or individuals. Now, that seems like a pretty broad definition.
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: We'll unpack that a little bit. But paraphilias may also
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: include examples of sexual interest in anything or anyone who
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: is not a legally consenting partner, which is where pedophilia
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: comes in. Right, So pedophilia is a subset of paraphilias,
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  Speaker 3: but not all paraphilias include what could possibly be a
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: legal or risky behavior.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So I think that that definition is really important.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Is essentially understanding that it is this sort of idiosyncratic
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  Speaker 1: sexual preference for these specific types of situations and things,
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  Speaker 1: and that because paraphilia is in a broad sort of
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: umbrella term, that that does include non consensual things. And
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: we're not sort of when you came into this talking
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: about like when we're trying to shed more information on
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: paraphilias and saying that like consent is everything, not all
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: paraphilas and tail consent, and therefore we would stand against
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: those as things that people do. We'll be talking about
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: that as we go.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: And I think you bring up a great point. It's
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: you're talking about things that people do, but paraphilias are
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: not necessarily actions. It's arousal related to these circumstances or
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: these variables. Right, So just because somebody has a particular
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: paraphilia does not mean they're engaging in the legal behavior.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: And I want that to be really clear as we
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: go forward.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: To Yes, good, and do you think there are people
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: who have paraphilias for ads?
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Oh for sure, John Watson had to.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Have Okay, we're back. We are starting to we have
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: unpacked the definition of periaphilia. We are starting expanding on
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: understanding what this category entails because the definition is one thing,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: but like what that means is something that can be
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: helpful to have also discussed. So we're sort of doing
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: that right now. And we said, I'm just going to
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: recap this definition really quick, because I do think it's
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: really important to hold on to and worth repeating as
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: that as recurring or intense sexual arousal and or gratification
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: related to objects, places, situations, fantasy's behaviors, or individuals. Okay,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: so that's where we're starting from.
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: Yes, And so in many cases, paraphilias are defined in
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: contrast to normophilic or quote unquote normal sexual interest or desires. Now,
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: I want to point this out. This is something that
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: came up in a lot of the research. This is
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: not something that we are specifically saying. It's important to
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: note that the contrast is here because what is considered
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: typical or normal may shift or vary depending on urging
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: social norms or cultural shift. So, like what you're going
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: to find is that something that we may find a
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: barrent today or like problematic today as part of perophilia
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: may actually emerge as something that is more socially accepted
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: later on. So a lot of times periphilias are just
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: contrasted with what is currently considered normal or quote unquote
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: typical as far as desires go, and that can vary
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: based on culture and stuff like that too, right, So,
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: like I think there's some complexities around that as well.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: I'm actually throwing a quick example right here of what
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: I think of an example a version of this might
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: look like that is a real from real world things,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: which is that I think historically it has been when
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: you have what you might call a heterosexual couple, it
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: has been very common for as a part of a
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: sexual act, the female partner to where like sexy clothing
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: or lingerie.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, and I.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Think if you went back maybe fifty years or less,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: maybe twenty years, the version of that was still basically
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: the case. But there has been a develop being industry
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: around male lingerie like a version of that as well.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: And so now it could be the case that, like
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: if we went back in time, men were in lingerie
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: may have been considered a paraphilia, whereas now that is
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: becoming essentially something that is just part of and it's
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: not I don't know how popular it is, but like
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: that that is part of what is available as an
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: option for people and would probably not be regarded as
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: a paraphilia as it's just sort of considered something that
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: you could do as part of that act.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely cool.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: I just made that. I mean I just pulled that
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: one out because I was like, I know that this
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: is like I was trying to specifically think of like
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: where trends like have gone, and I was like, I'm
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: aware that this is one that currently exists and shows
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: what I think would be pretty different from like a
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixties or seventies couples preferences versus today.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's critically important. I think we we have to
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: have those examples because I think, you know, for those
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: of you who are uninitiated to this world, you might
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: not have like, you know, salient examples that kind of
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: show what that might look like. I mean, another one too,
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: could be considered like you can talk about homosexuality is
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: like considered at some point in time considered abnormal or
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: not part of like the normal philic sexual desire process.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: And then so like homosexuality could have been at one
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: point considered a paraphilia. Yeah, by understanding how like those
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: cultural norms might.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Shift also a good example.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, So another important point here that we want
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: to make is para filures are considered part of a
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: larger group of sexual disorders. Sexual disorders include things like
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: changes in sexual functioning like erectile dysfunction and orgasmic disorders,
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: which just means that you can't have an organism where
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: you have difficulty having an organism and changes in sexual
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: desire or pain related to sexual behavior. So paraphilias are
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: kind of lumped into sexual disorders under psychological services.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: You know, this is really not the space for this,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: but that change in sexual desire is actually an interesting
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: topic that might be worth coming back to at some
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: point in the future, because I think that a lot
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: of people like the label of sexual preferences as a static,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: immutable characteristic right of people, but it is very much
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: a dynamic spectrum that can shift and does for a
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: lot of people, where they might early in life have
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: one particular preference, later in life have that preference shift completely,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: and then later in life still have it maybe be
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: a blend between the two or shift back to the
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: original preference. They're just not fixed patterns to continue on
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: that for sure. Yeah, So anyway, getting into as as
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: you were just talking about here, with the fact that
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: there are what we might call sexual quote unquote disorders
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: and it's actually not quote unquote they do have like
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: a diagnosable feature and so quote they like by per
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: the definition of the fact that they're labeled to diagnoses,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I think makes them a disorder to an extent, although
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: we could argue about that as well. But according to
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: the DSM five tr perophilias are sometimes classified under paraphilic disorders.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: So let's unpack with those criteria. Look like, here's an
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: example of voyeuristic disorder. So there's sort of three main
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: points here. The patient experiences recurrent and intent sexual arousal
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: manifested by fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving the act of
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: observing an unsuspecting person who is naked, in the process
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: of disrobing, or engaging in sexual activity. Symptoms must be
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: present for at least six months for them to qualify.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the patient must also experience significant distress or impairment
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning because
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: the fantasies of the or the urges or behaviors because
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: of those, I should say, because of the fantasies, the
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: urges or behaviors, or the patient has acted on the
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: sexual urges.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: And the individual experiencing arousal or acting on the urges
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: as aged at least eighteen years, so you have to
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: be like legally an.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: Adult, right, So I think it's critically important here that
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: like they're saying, like they may have acted on this,
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: but they're again a legal behavior hasn't happened just yet,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: but they do have the fantasy or the urge that
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: or like maybe they have like precursor behaviors that lead
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: to that.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: So ultimately we're just going to sort of summarize this again.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: The criteria for a periophilia is effect actively that a
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: the person experiences recurrent or sexual arousal related to objects
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: of circumstances. B they experience significant distrust as a result
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: of the urges, and see that they consider acting or
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: having acted on the paraphilia. And so the one we
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: give with the example of the voyeurism as a specific type,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: but when we're talking about a sexual disorder broadly, those
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: are sort of the three main criteria you'll see.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: Right, And this is kind of the challenge with this, right,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: Patients are apprehensive to report experiencing paraphilic ideations or actions
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: for lots of different reasons. For instance, the US is
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: notoriously anti sex, espousing hyperconservative views on sexuality and sexual behavior.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: Even basic sex ed is reduced to abstinence training because
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: of the religious right, and anything that deviates from missionary
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: position is going to come under greater scrutiny. So if
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: we're not talking about missionary then we are already getting
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: into a space where people are like, oh, I don't know,
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: and in anything that is considered even beyond that into
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: the paraphilic world is very, very taboo.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are other countries that have like a
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: sort of similar level of hyperconservativism around sexuality, but I'd say,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: more broadly speaking, the level of fear around sexuality is
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: very high in the United States relative to like your
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: average other country if you will, Yeah, yeah, Okay. Now,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: further research on paraphilic behaviors and sexuality in general is
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: pretty limited, often centered around self reports and surveys, and
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: that's unfortunate for a lot of reasons, because we can,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: i think, appreciate the fact that generally, understanding some topic
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: scientifically is going to have us have a much better
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: appreciation for what the scope of that topic might entail
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: from the problematic to the perfectly acceptable. But without those data,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: we have just our feelings to guide us and our
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: knee jerk reactions to things and things that might surprise us,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: even though if we think about it for two seconds
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: longer than we realize, oh okay, I can sort of
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: see why it's not that big a deal or that
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: is much worse than it seems like it should be.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: But if we ask the question, why is it the
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: case that we are struggling to get good research around
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: these topics? Imagine going to a board of reviewers. So
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: there are these specific boards. A lot of people who
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: listen to this podcast know this. They're called an IRB.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: They are a board of people who look at research
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: and they evaluate the sort of ethical implications and in
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: many cases, and I think pretty universally now, like how
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: effectively will this research be able to answer the question
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: that it's asking. And so imagine you go to this
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: IRB board of people and you say, I want to
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: teach someone how to masturbate safely, or we need to
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: observe a partnered couple having sex to measure x whatever
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: thing we want to measure. It's difficult to imagine that
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: the IRB will approve research on the grounds that sexuality
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: is a generally sensitive topic, at least in the United States,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: and that there I think there is rightfully in appreciation
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: from concern around exploitation, yes, and coercion, and that is
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: something that you want to be extremely careful about when
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: you're doing research. But it's also not impossible to find
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: consensual couples on whatever they are on the spectrum, or
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: maybe more than maybe threebles or something, but like, yeah,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: finding consensual sexual partners with whom you can do research.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: It's but there's going to be some resistance around this
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: with people who evaluate things ethically because they can. I
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: think there is concern that if they approve a study
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: that then the public interprets in a sort of lascivious manner,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: if you will, that then the IRB is now under
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: scrutiny for not really doing their job. And so I
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: think they sort of tend to fall in line with
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: this conservative view of like, canon, should we approve this thing.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: I have had the pleasure of being a reviewer, like
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: an invited reviewer, for dissertation that was about ethical nominogamy
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: and the amount of hoops that we had to go
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: through with the IRB to like make sure that this
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: study was able to be done was kind of I mean, again,
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: for the right reasons, you've got protections in place, but
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: a lot of times the concerns that the IRB would
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: bring up were kind of unfounded because everybody was so
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: nervous about the topic of sexuality. So it took a
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: long time to get the IRB to approve the even
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: just the interviews in like how to get the surveys
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: out for this particular population, because that's all it was
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: a survey and interview style. But it was one of
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: those things where because it involved the topic that was
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: inside of sexuality, specifically ethical nominogamy, it was a really
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: complex process just to get that done.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Sure, I think what you really need to help sort
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: of educate them in a way to have them understand
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: the value of the project is to put together a
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: nice comprehensive ad. We are back. Let's talk statistics, because
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: you know you want if you listen to a podcast,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: you know you want numbers in there somewhere.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: I was gonna say, nothing makes you hornier than a
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: couple p values, right, So thankfully, I think Wow. The
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: world of sexology and sexuality has dedicated journals and research
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: that allows us to get some insight into this world.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: So there is some research on this, and I think
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: it's important to kind of share a couple things about
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: specific paraphilias and paraphilic behavior. So allers and friends in
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: twenty eleven and friends, I love that.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: I do think we should start using that. Yeah, for
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: those of you who are unfamiliar, and a lot of
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: citations for scientific studies. It uses Latin at all, et
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: space al period it means essentially and others. So making
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: the joke and friends, which I really like. So anyway,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: sorry to interrupt. Yeah, that was really that caught me
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: off guard. That was very good, So let's continue.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. So so
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: Ollers and friends.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: In twenty eleven, they conducted a study where they surveyed
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: paraphilic arousal patterns and men and found that about sixty
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: two percent of men reported having at least one paraphilic interest.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: How interesting.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought that was really interesting.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: And when we talk about like some of the different
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: types of paraphilias that are out there, that will probably
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: feel like less of a huge number just because like
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: I think you'll you'll see what we mean. However, only
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: one point seven in those participants reported that their interest
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: caused distress. So you've got a pretty wide range of
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: people that express an interest and very few of them
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: that are saying like, hey, this is a concern, like
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: they're not really worried about it.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: A couple things to note really quick is always thinking
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: about who what's the profile of the person who was
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: willing to participate in the study? Yes, like, how was
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: this study delivered out to people? Like did it inadvertently
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: select a group of people that are going to report
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: one way or another just by inviting those people to
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: participate and not others? And those will always be really
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: really really import data that are almost never never gathered
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: because logistically it's almost impossible to gather those data. But
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: to understand how we then interpret the data that are collected. Nevertheless,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: I think we can take this and at least say,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: at least in the population survey, this is what they found.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: What that necessarily says about us broadly as a species
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: is unclear, But they did find this pattern where they
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: looked for it. Yeah, exactly, According to Joiel and Carpentia
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Carpenteer in twenty seventeen. Paraphilic sexual interests appear to be
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: more common than we might think. About fifty percent of
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: participants expressed interest and at least one paraphilic description or category,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: and thirty three percent had expressed interest with an identified paraphilia,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: So the majority of people if you put those all together.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: But yeah, otherwise you have like about half or to
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: a third of people with some kind of paraphilic interest.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: And again that's contextual, right, Like what we consider paraphilic
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: is basically just what is you know, the definition of
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: normal quote unquote normal in this space, So like they
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: may be identifying something that is a particular interest of
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: theirs and that is classified as paraphilic, and it might
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: not actually be in like even five years. So yeah,
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: the goalpost changes.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: I actually wonder if like something like someone who's like
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: I just really love it when my partner wears perfume,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: or I really love it when my partner wears a
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: specific type of cologne, and like, yeah, that that is
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: the thing that gets them like all ready to go, yeah,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: and that might then be considered a paraphilia, even though
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: like all it is is like a contextual feature of
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: that setting that they most prefer right and that they
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: find arousing. And it's like when you compare that to
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: some of the other things understanding that, like they're all
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: in the same category. It helps illustrate how diverse and
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: dynamic this can exist, I think among people. And again,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: as you said, like how we determine that culturally right
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: now versus in the past versus in the future.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: Now as far as this this this reason the joyl
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: article goes, they also found a couple other points that
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: we want to point out. First, fifteen point nine percent
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: of the sample were found to be statistically significant in
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: their preferences identifying a potential for a diagnosable paraphilic disorder.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: So even though they expressed an interest, we had a
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: small portion that could be diagnosable because there may be
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: reporting some distress, which is a little bitffer than the
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: one point seven that we saw on twenty eleven. So
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: that could also be a cultural shift around people having
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: more conversations about sexuality.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: There's lots of other factors that they they've attributed to this.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: One thing that I think is really interesting is that
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: they found that there were no differences between men and
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: women in the study specifically as it related to fetishism
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: and masochism in their sexual interests. And I think a
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: lot of people would think it goes one way or another,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: but it does seem like, at least in this study,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: they were split fairly evenly.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, something that comes as a shock to nobody is
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: that men reported a higher satisfaction of the with their
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: own sexual life.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I've heard this in other places as well.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: I've heard this plenty of times too, Like it's just
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: one of those things where it's like, sure, okay, But
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: I will also say too, I think really important to
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: note that a lot of the sexuality research has been
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: primarily focused on men for across lots of different spaces,
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: and that is like, you know, they talked about like
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: like arousal research specifically, it took ten years for somebody
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: to go, we should probably look at female arousal arousal
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: at this At some point in time after the first
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: like male arousal study came out, they were like, oh,
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: we should probably look at this other you know, this
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: other large group of people that may also experience arousal. So,
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: you know, research on women in sexuality is not really
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: caught up at all at this point.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that that is woefully behind in a lot of
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: ways from like a lot of as far as how
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: research allocation has been, it has been largely male dominated.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: So that's a really good point. Yeah, all right, dare
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: I try and pronounce this name?
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: I can do it?
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: Okay, all right, So Ken dearly O, Glue and friends.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Nice, all right.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: I was practicing it a whole bunch okay today, So
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: that's good, So and Friends in twenty twenty three, so
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: it's more recent than which I think is cool. They
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: conducted a study that looked at information related to men
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: convicted of sex offenses in Turkey. Now you'll find that
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: there is quite a lot of sexuality research in other
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: countries as well, which I think is important. Yeah, And
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: here's what they found among the one hundred men in
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: a sample. So these are one hundred men who are
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: convicted and incarcerated for sex offenses in Turkey. First, they
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: found that thirty nine percent were drug users, thirty six
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: percent were alcohol users, and forty two percent committed crimes
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: in their own house.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: WHOA.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Of these, pedophilia was the most common, with fifty nine
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: percent of the men convicted of a crime related to
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: like a sexual crime related to pedophilia specifically, and they
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: were unable to evaluate the effects that childhood trauma may
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: have had very effectively because the lack of research in
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: this area in Turkey, so they couldn't necessarily speak to
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: how did they get to be like this, But I
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: do think that it as one area we would consider
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: probably a very relevant variable in understanding how these preferences developed.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I want to be clear, it's something about
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: this too, Like, so like this study specifically focused on
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: people who were incarcerated and committed crimes. It's very likely
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: that you're gonna like and that's why you see such
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: a high level of pedophilia in that space, I would imagine,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: because it's very unlikely that you're going to get arrested
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: for liking somebody's shoes, right, Yeah, So just kind of
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: like for perspective, if that number was shocking for you, like,
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: keep in mind the population sample is more likely to
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: have a higher rate of pedophilia as a result of
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: the nature of what they're studying, which is criminal behavior.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Right, specifically prisoners that are in prison because they did
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: something illegal, and that's something they did illegal had to
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: do with sexual sexuality and.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: Some sort exactly now, at the time of this recording.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: In this episode, there are roughly five hundred and forty
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: seven unique identified paraphilic interests that have been categorized because
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: humans love categorizing things we do, which I think is fine.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: As a scientist, I love categories like That's one of
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: my favorite things to do is categorize everything. My books
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: are categorized, my albums and my CDs. Love.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: I love a good organization. Okay, I get that now.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: For context though, talking about the shifting continuum of sexuality
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: and paraphilias, we only had about forty identified paraphilic interests
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety three, the year the Jurassic Park ended
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: up in the movie theaters. We only had forty paraphilic
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: interests and none of them were related to dinosaurs.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: So just so you have that, So that's more than
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: twelve times more thirty years later.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, that's a lot. It's a lot. It's huge, right.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: So to help eliminate the wide scope of paraphilic disorders,
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: here are a few that are currently studied, and we
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: bring these up to point out that paraphilic disorders range
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: in their focus of interest. We're not talking about these
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: to judge or to make fun of, or to create
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: biases around these paraphilic disorders. We just want you to
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: know that there is a wide scope of what somebody
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: could be attracted to or experience arousal towards inside of
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: this space. So the first one is besiophilia, which is
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: an attraction to people who who have impaired mobility, and
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: a crodomophilia, which is people who have amputations attraction to
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: people with amputations.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: There's also belly fetishism, which, as you might imagine, focuses
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: on the mid drift or the belly. There's capnolognia lognia,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: and this is people who are aroused by and a
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: focus on smoking as related to their sexual preferences.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a cremasd stophelia. There's We're gonna have a
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: lot of these folks, So just bear with us while
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: we stumble over these words because it's just a lot
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: of a lot of a lot of consonants. And alias
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: cremas stofphilia is a sexual interest in being robbed or
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: being held up. So it's like a context in a
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: particular situation, right, and then coleophilia, not to be confused
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: with colorrophobia.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: One of our episodes that we did the opposite. Colorophilia
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: is an attraction to clowns.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: There's dendrophilia. This is having interest in arousal as it
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: relates to trees and tophelia, which is for those of
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: us who are around fields where we're used to the
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: word emesis, you might recognize the prefix there. This is
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: sexual interest as it relates to things like vomit.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: Yes, there's fraudism, which is the act of rubbing against
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: a non consenting person, So this might happen in public places,
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: tight quarters, stuff like that. There's hoplophilia, which is related
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: to firearms or guns.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, which you know if you can find that in
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: the United States.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I can't wait to get a letter from
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: the NRA about this episode. And then there's robophilia, which
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: is an interesting humanoid robots. Right, So you can see
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: how this ranges from you know, a person's ability, a
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: person's physical features, acts and behaviors, you know, things that
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: are not even human, right, trees and stuff. So you're
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: gonna see kind of like a wide spectrum of these
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: types of interest for folks with different paraphilias.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was that was an incomplete list. As we
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: said the forty seven, we listed a few from a
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: few of the letters of the alphabet, and there's just
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: there's just so many more. So I think probably people
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: are asking the question and wondering, like, okay, but how
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: why does this happen? Why does this develop in some people?
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Or maybe, as we've seen in some of these numbers,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of people. Here are some ads for some
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: affilias of sorts. Okay, we're back from those those ads
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: that maybe tickled your fancy, but let's talk about the
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: development of this as it occurs for for us as
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: a species.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: So I think it's really important to preface this by like,
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: I don't know, and maybe this is something we can
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: kind of like talk about a little bit, like I
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: personally grew up thinking that, you know, and this is
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: probably something that was like embedded in me, like people
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: kind of just the way that people talk about this
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: is that people will go, something must have happened right
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: for this person to like this, something must have happened somewhere,
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: And that's not entirely wrong, but I do think it's
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: more complex than that. So I think It's really important
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: to remember that we are talking about experience and biology
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: and neurology and all these things that come together to
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: create the unique human that you are and your unique preferences.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, the better way of saying it is something
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: could have happened.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: Something could have happened, but also other things, like you know, like,
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: for example, like I could have had a particular experience
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: with pickles growing up, right. I bring that up because
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: like my taste buds do not allow me to like pickles.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: I can't stand pickles, right, So like.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: There, I have a particular biology that predisposes me to
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: dislike this thing. But I could have had experience. So
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: it's one of those things to understand that, like your
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: biology plays a role, your experience plays a role. All
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: of these play a role. And we know that as
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: a podcast. This is the four hundred and thirtieth episode
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: at this point in time, so you know, we know,
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: we all know that it's biology and nature and all
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: the things that go along with it. But yeah, in
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three we had some ideas, so money in
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: Panzeroni in nineteen ninety three they argued that pair Aphelias
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: maybe agin as a dream an ideation or a fantasy, right,
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: So a thought, and it's not something that is caused
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: by a what's called social contagion like pornography, but instead
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: induced by noxious child rearing, non sexual and sexual so.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Interesting things.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: So it starts as an idea, it's not influenced by pornography,
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: as what they're arguing, But it's really paraphilias show up
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: as a problem of just bad parenting, it sounds like,
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: is what they're making the argument. As far as like
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Goes, I would speculate that if I were to unpack
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: what I understand about behavior and superimpose that on their
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: arguments here, I would say they're like Maybee a quarter
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: if that's correct. Yeah, I think that in the sense that, like,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: I actually don't think paraphilias necessarily start as a dream
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: ideation or fantasy. I think they start somewhere else and
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: they can then turn into and a dream ideation or
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: fantasy that can then turn into a paraphilia. Because that
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: would imply that, having no knowledge of anything in the
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: world whatsoever, you dreamed it up and then you turned
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: that into a sexual fantasy. Yeah, that would be the
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: implication of it. Starting in a place like a dream,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Like you had to have had some contact with some
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: features of this somewhere for it to then be have
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: the ability to be associated with it in a fantasy,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Like if I had describe something to you you've never
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: heard of and never seen, how could you that have
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: arisen as a fantasy for you when it doesn't exist?
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, you gotta have contact with it first.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: But I think they're about as right as like calling
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: a chicken a dinosaur. Like it's like close right, Like
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: it's like they're like there's seeds of like something that
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: could be there, but like we need more information and
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: like it's just it's just off the mark enough to
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: kind of like not quite be right.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's like I could see how you got
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: there kind of, but I think you're missing some important steps.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: And also the part here about it like being the
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: child ring process, I'm like that probably does have an effect, Like,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: but I don't think it is going to be like
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: bad child rearing or like noxious as they said. Sure
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: that could be a variable that could be a situation
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: when that arises, but you could also have it arise
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: as an outcome of parenting where there was nothing noxious
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: or coercive or weird about it. It was just like
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: this was the common context in which these things were
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: exposed or exactly where around It's like whenever parents were
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: getting busy, they always locked the door and put a
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: bunch of sental candles around the house. Hence to like
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: keep like people distracted with other things, or maybe they
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: put on TV or whatever. It's like then you start
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: to like have this association of like romantic time also
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: equals candles and TV. Sure, and like that just becomes
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: a thing that you're sort of exposed to. And they
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: didn't do anything wrong in that particular situation. It's just
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: like that association is created, and therefore it sort of
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: becomes the memory you have of that. So I think
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: they go too far by having it be problematic parenting
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: that results in a paraphilia.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: Well, and to that point too, like just what you
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: described is I think a common example that people might
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: go but that by itself does not necessarily make it
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: a paraphilia. Like that leads to an association that creates
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: a preference. It might not cause distress for somebody, It
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: may not actually fall into those pair of like paraphilic
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: categories so like, I think that's also important too, is
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: like when you're a child and you're a learner or like,
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: you're exposed to certain situations and you create those associations,
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: it doesn't necessarily mean that you have now suddenly gotten
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: a paraphilia, like all of a sudden, you're not like
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: romost Okay, well I guess I like that. So now
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: I'm this like, that's not really what happens, Like it's
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: not quite that black and white or that like linear.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Right. No, yeah, you're exactly right. So just to sort
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: of summarize real quick, is that I think it could
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: be the case that problematic parenting does influence the direction
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: of the development of paraphilias, But it also could be
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: the case that parenting that had that was not problematic
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: could also move it in that direction. So it doesn't
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: necessarily have to be noxious. And the last part I'll
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: comment on here is that it could not be caused
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: by pornography. I think it is unlikely to be caused
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: by pornography, but I wouldn't go so to say it
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: cannot be caused by pornography or is not. I think
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: that there are going to be situations where someone's exposed
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: to that in a particular circumstance, which it does begin
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: to develop as like a very specific preference they might
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: not have otherwise developed. Yeah, have they not had that exposure. Yeah,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: So I don't think that is a guarantee by any stretch.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: A matter of fact, I think there are people will
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: might learn what the preferences they do not have by
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: exposure to Yeah, some pornographies, but they I could be
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: the case that someone could from their sort of go
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: down the a particular path of direction that is something
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: they might not have otherwise found themselves on.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: And I think for context too, thinking about nineteen ninety three,
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: remember like this is the time where you have got
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: boards of people Tipper Gore showing up and like put
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: slapping like parental labels on everything. This is where like
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: video game rating systems are showing up, movie rating systems
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: are getting more strict, Like you're starting to see censorship
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: a little bit more, and you're starting to kind of
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: like at this time people are believing that video games
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: are causing more violence. This is like the time that
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: Mortal Kombats showing up and like stuff like this too.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: So like the idea of social contagion. I think was
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: around where it was like media influences everybody adversely, and
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: so I think what they were trying to argue was like, no,
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: not necessarily, and pornography is not going to be the
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: thing that makes somebody a pedophile, right, Like that's not
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: what they I think that's kind of what they were saying.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: But yeah, that's also you can't overgeneralize that too, because
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: people getting exposed to stuff are going to have different
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: experiences with that.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So and to that point, I think you're exactly right.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: Is that I do think that they're they're mostly right
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: in saying this is probably not caused by quote unquote
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: social contagion. But it's not that it wouldn't ever happen.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: It just seems like it's not very likely to happen. Yeah, Okay,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: so we've kind of talked now about how it doesn't develop.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: We also have Fisher and Marwij twenty twenty three have
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: more updated information on this, thankfully thirty years later. First,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: there is no actual, like confirmed cause of paraphilic disorders.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: So if you're waiting for us to viel the smoking gun,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: there isn't one. I'm serious, Yeah, there is not but
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: current models suggests there is a combination of neurobiological, interpersonal,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: and cognitive processes as you might imagine because humans are
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: complex and they have all of those things going on
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: that are involved in all aspects of our being and
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: in particular aspects of our sexual behaviors. We do have
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: a brain when we have sex, we do have an
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: interpersonal relationship with the when we have sex, and we
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: do have cognitive processes when we have sex. So like,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: those factors will be involved, which means those factors are
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: involved in the development of behaviors related to that broadly topic.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: So simply put, nature and nurture something something, behavioral models, something, something,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: learning theory, something something, learning histories.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: YadA YadA, Yeah, exactly, Like that's just like the thing
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: the things we say like that, Why do we do?
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: It?
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: Comes back to the essential question that we have asked
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: from the beginning of the show, why do we do
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: what we do?
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: All of it?
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: That's because of the things, Because of the things, obviously, folks,
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: that's been the answer for all of these episodes. Now
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: there is like some interesting stuff as far as genetics go, though,
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: and I think it's important to know this. So there
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: have been some studies that have argued that your kinks
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: and your fetishes and your paraphilias are passed down from
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: your parents, which means that if you have a certain
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: predilection for something, then maybe your parents have it too,
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: which you're welcome, by the way, for us giving you
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: that image of whatever paraphilia you've got thinking about your
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: parents doing the same thing. But here's what this is
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: really getting at right. Genetic factors and neurology actually play
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: an important role in this because neurotransmission and folks with
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: specifically child related paraphilias indicate a potential disturbance in how
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: dopamine is produced and received, as well as discrepancies with
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: now regulated regulation related.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: Cognitive functions and how they work.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: So basically this is saying is like dopamine and receptors
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: and all the neurotransmitters that are involved aren't quite doing
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: what they're supposed to do. What they're found in like,
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: specifically people with pedophilia is they have increased levels of
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: serotonin and no repinephrine as well as decreased levels of DOPAK,
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: which is the result of dopamine being broken down. So
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: basically they've got all these increased levels of stuff. They've
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: got dopamine being broken down instead of received, and it's
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: creating some neurological I don't want to say confusion, but
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: just some kind of unique discrepancies that exist among people
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: that have child related paraphilias versus people that don't. So
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: they did identify that there is some neurological differences across
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: these folks.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: I will go ahead and expand a little bit on
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: my YadA YadA neurobiology, YadA YadA, learn theory, et cetera. Yeah,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: by saying that, I think, as we understand behavior to
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: develop and be shaped by our learning histories and experiences,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: and that is true all of the time for all
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: of our behaviors, and of course there is a neurological
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: and biological component. Those are absolutely going to be there,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: and like you need things like opportunity and context for
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: those those behaviors and preferences to begin to take shape
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: and become what they will become. Which is to say
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: that a lot of these, all of these to some extent,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: had to do with some kind of exposure to a
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: context where there was also a sexual component, and the
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: context probably in addition to that, was not necessarily inherently sexual, right,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: and started to take on that function for the observer
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: or the participant in that way because of those association
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: that was created in the moment where that experience took place,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: and that could happen repeatedly. It could also be that
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: like that does not necessarily look overtly sexual to an observer,
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Like we might see something and not necessarily think this
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: has a sexual element to it, but someone else who
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, is having a sexual experience in the nature,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: And let's just say that hypothetically, we had someone who
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: just happens to be aroused. That there are a few
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: of us where at moments throughout the day, for reasons
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: that do not seem clear to us, our biology has
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: all of the signs and experiences of arousal. And then
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: we noticed the con text we're in and we start
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: to have a pairing of the things around us and
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: that arousal, and the arousal was kind of an involuntary
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: biological thing that happened that just shows up for people
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: sometimes in a way that we can't really predict when
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: that took place, but it was some kind of reflex
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: let's say, yeah, and then that just happened to be
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: the case that they were around let's just say, a
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: bunch of trees. We'll go to the dendrophilia one yea.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: And so they're sort of like, hm, I am particularly
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: aroused all of a sudden, and I find myself around
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: a bunch of trees. And then in the future they're like, hmm,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: I maybe go check out some trees. Let's see what happens.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: And like, again, for us, we don't observe anything. We
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: see someone who's around some trees, and then in the
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: future that are around trees a lot more, and yeah,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: it just happened to be the case that the biology
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: and the circumstance just aligned that way, just through sheer
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: dumb luck. And that's not going to be all paraphilias.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Some of those exposures are going to be more deliberate.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: Some of them may have been introduced by a particular
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: partner who had a sort of fetish, who then influenced
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: the sexual preferences for that other person who didn't previously
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: have that fetish but now is coming into a sexual
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: situation where they might become that fetish. And there are
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: a variety of ways that it can develop. But we
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: do know that it develops, and that it develops as
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: a part of learning, history, exposure, experiences, and the context
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: of those like sexual reals that happens a place where
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: it then becomes extremely aversive and you want to escape.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: It might then create that context as a condition where
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: you are not sexually aroused in the future and has
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: become a pretty powerful turn off for you in fact.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: I think I just wanted to expand on that more broadly,
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: thinking about the steps that gets you there when understanding
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: like a lot of these that are quirky, you know
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: what I mean.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and those same steps can get you away from
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: there too, because again, it is not static. It is
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: a continuum. It is flexible, it is nebulous. It will
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: continue to change over time, it will evolve, it will emerge.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: Like all sorts of things happen, You're gonna discover new
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: things about yourself. And the more where honest your communication
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: is about your own sexuality and your own preferences and
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: all these things, the more likely you're going to discover
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: new elements and new things that might influence your arouse
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: on and actually might improve your sex.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Life very much. So, So I guess you know, we
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: never really unpack a topic without not never, but we
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: obviously have some values around this, and we take a
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: very humanist perspective in here, and we try and take
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: one where we see that people should have freedoms and
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: they should have certain liberties and sort of inalienable rights
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: as the old people like to say, and all of
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: that's very important as we go into this next part.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: So I think we'll want to do our best to
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: impart this scientifically while also sharing where we think we'll
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: use the should language of like what we sort of
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: consider where there's a line to be drawn on what
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: that line is. After some ads play.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sounds good.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, so let's get back to this. And I think
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: we really are at the point now of just trying
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: to unpack sort of our big take home summary of
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: our thoughts and understanding around things like paraphilias.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: So, I think the general landing point for me is
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: that paraphilias are generally harmless to people on.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: A day to day basis.
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: People experience things, they have preferences for things I say
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: generally harmless, and I specifically mean to like people in
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: the community. Most people paraphilias don't always act on their
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: paraphilias it may cause them. For the person experience in
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: the paraphilia or the paraphilic idiations, there may be some
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: significant distress related to this. There may be some shame,
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: some worry, some concern, they feel like they're at a
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: greater risk they are. There's lots of complications and complicated
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: feelings and thoughts around this. So what I generally recommend
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: if you're having an experience around this where you're struggling with,
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: you know, some paraphilic thought, you know, and you haven't
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: acted on it, then I recommend talking to a sex
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: positive therapist. And I want to be really clear about this,
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: Like you're going to go to a therapist at some
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: point in time, and that person may not be supportive
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: of what you need. They may not be sex positive.
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: I had a friend who went to a super conservative
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: therapist and like walked into the office and they had a.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: Picture of George W. Bush on the wall.
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: If that tells you anything, So like it was a
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: kind of like a not a very welcoming space for
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: maybe something like this.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, even though it's not, it's supposed to be more welcoming.
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: So just a thought like when if you are somebody
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: who's experiencing this type of distress or this concern, talk
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: to a sex positive therapist who can help support you
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: through your distress and kind of find out how to
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: navigate that and also not shame you, because I think
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: it's really important to remember that, Like in the United
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: States at least, a lot of times, discussions around sexuality
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: and preferences come with a lot of shame and a
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: lot of guilt and a lot of complex feelings that
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: come from other places that are completely unrelated. So it's
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: important to be in a space where you can kind
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: of talk about those freely and talk about those safely
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: as long as you're not hurting anybody.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly the main summary I think is like,
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: as we talked about before, it all comes down to consent,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: and like if someone's getting hurt like that, obviously is
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: there's a line to be drawn there as people getting hurt.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: And of course, you know, without going into the fact
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: that there are some people who they have some sexual
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: preferences and arousal around like some implementation of pain, and again,
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: where you have consent, it is what it is. And
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: again we're not really advocating for anything here. Except I
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: think so insofar as to try and leave you with
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: the understanding that it's just a thing that happens for people,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: and there's like a lot of shame and judgment. And
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: I do think like for some people it's possible that
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: their arousal may have be in conflict with their values. Yeah,
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: and if that is a thing that is problematic for you,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: then as you said, like going to see a therapist
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: about this might be an important step in helping you
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: find some reconciliation around this. And it's not impossible either
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: for those preferences to shift and change. They had to
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: develop in the first place, which means other ones can
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: develop as well, and it's not always easy to do
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: it the second time, but sometimes it is. So it's like,
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't think that people should necessarily change
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: unless they're experiencing distress. And I don't think that we
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: there's just no point in trying to govern and regulate
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: people's sexual preferences as long as everyone's consenting and no
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: one's getting hurt. There's just no point, Like we just
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: don't need to do that, Like it's such a waste
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: of time and energy to worry about, Like what someone's
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: preferences are when everybody who's involved is consenting with informed
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: consent and nobody's getting hurt, right, that's just not our business,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: Like it's just not so like that's essentially where I
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: come from with this is like where I take what
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: I consider like the sort of liberty angle, if you will,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: is that like we just don't need to be regulating
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: this for other people as long as everybody is consenting
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: and informed and nobody's getting hurt.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: Nailed it, absolutely, nailed it.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: Great? All right, Well, then, I think that we have
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: said we have to say about paraphilias unless there's anything
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: that you'd like to add, and.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: I don't think any.
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, we'd love to hear your feedback, Like I mean,
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: if you are out there and you're a sexologist or
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: a sex therapist or like somebody who works in the space, like,
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: we love to hear your feedback because I think that
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: this is like a topic that's going to be an
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: ongoing discussion as a general rule, so like it's something
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: that we are continuing to explore. And so if you
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: have feedback, reach out to us.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: We'd love to hear you, yes, And you can email
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: us directly at info at WWDWWD podcast dot com, or
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: you can reach us on the social media platforms, and
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: we look forward to hearing from you whatever your feedback
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: may be. Yeah, before we transition to our other things,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: we should do some credits, and then we are going
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: to recommend some things. I'm gonna throw in a quick
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: bonus recommend. That's not my recommendation, but because it's on
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: topic with what we're discussing. Is the book Bonk by
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: Mary Roach, which I think you and I have both
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: recommended at some point.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: I am. I just started it this week.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, great, that is That is definitely a book
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: that is I've recommended. I read it. I don't know,
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: but that is a book that I think for people
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: who are interested at all in just sex research broadly.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: That book is not inherently about paraphilas, and I think
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: they're only sort of briefly mentioned. It's really mostly just
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: about sex research. Really really well written take on this,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: and Mary Roach is such a readable author. I mean,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: she's just so accessible, she's funny and communicates clearly, and
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: she's succinct, so great author Shong bonus recommend there, But
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: after we get through the credits. We're going to have
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: a fun listener mail, and then we have some recommendations
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: that are unrelated to our topic at hand. Yeah, but
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: first I would like to say that, as I mentioned
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: at the top, if you like to support us, one
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: way that you can do that is by joining our
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: cool club of people who do not have to listen
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: to ads and episodes, and in addition to that, they
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: get other bonus content, and that's over on Patreon. If
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: you go to patreon dot com slash WWDWWD podcast and
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: sign up for various membership tears, you might get access
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: to things like early episodes, all the episodes that we
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: post our ad free. There's also behind the scenes content
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: and other things like that. We also have a community
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: discord where people can chat with one another. And maybe
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: the favorite thing that all people are really here for
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: is that I will probably not but I will read
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: the names of all of the people who currently support
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: us at the end of each of our full length discussions.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: So major thanks to Mike, m Meghan, Mike t, Justin,
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara and Charlie. Y'all just
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: really appreciate you continue to be with us, support us
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: and community. Yes. Absolutely. In addition writing in fact checking
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: from Shane and myself, thank you for all your work
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: on this one, Shane, and for recording with me today.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: Hey, thank you. I appreciate it.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson, and our audio
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: engineered sound person is Justin who does all the good sounds.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, he's our engineer, Dajore Djure.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Sounds like he's going to go away, you know. Okay,
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: every got it? So awesome. Well, we do have some
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: really good listener male, so let's go ahead and transition
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: to that. Yeah, okay, So this comes from this is
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: actually a social media post, which is a perfectly acceptable
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: way to reach out to us. But we got some
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: feedback on our episode on makeup, and this comes from
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: someone whose name on here is an Amelia. I think
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: I'm saying that right, and so's She asked if she
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: could give some feedback and I said yes, please, and
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: she said the main thing is how much you emphasize
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: individual choice, which as a person who values freedom, I appreciated.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: But one thing you did not address is how individual
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: choices create and challenge societal norms and the interaction between
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: the individual and culture. For instance, I can say and
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: believe I wear makeup for myself for my own individual expression.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: But even if that's true, my use of makeup affects
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: other people. If eighty percent of women choose, for whatever reason,
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: to wear makeup, that has an effect on the twenty
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: percent that choose not to. Individual choices shape the choice
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: landscape for others. In fact, buying, applying, and wearing makeup
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: imposes significant costs on me and anyone who wears it,
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: but many of us pay those costs because the cost
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: of not wearing makeup. Those costs are perceived to outweigh
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: the costs of wearing it, for example, and getting a
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: job or being promoted. Therefore, by supporting the cultural norm
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: of wearing makeup, we make it harder for others who
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: would prefer not to. She also notes that we threw
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: off the odd side, like quote unquote, neao, polish color
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: has no meaning. She says this is true but also
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: not true, because the cosmetics we wear do send signals
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: to others, whether we are aware of it or not.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: Sometimes people deliberately and consciously send signals, for example, sports
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: team face paint or religious tattoos, but even if you
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: don't intend a meaning, what you display on your outside
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: likely will be interpreted by others as having some kind
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: of salience. It seems like your intention was to give
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: people permission to do whatever they like, which of course
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: they have. But just because you don't think about how
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: it will be seen by others doesn't mean that it
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: won't have an effect on anybody. Choices made within a
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: society have societal effects. And she goes on to add,
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: this is not a moral point, just an observation of
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: how human societies work. It's an interesting aspect of how
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: they work. And I would like to have heard you
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: address it. And I think all of those are great points.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: I think completely agree with all of that, and thinking
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: about like, yes, I think I don't remember what comment
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: I made about nail polish, but what I think what
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: I meant was colors inherently don't carry any meaning, but
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: societally they do. I mean, if you imagine someone who
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: shows up with black fingernail polish, some people might read
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: that and assigned meaning to it. They might say, oh,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: that must be a goth person or a person who's
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: trying to be edgy, or something like that. Versus if
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: you show up with some sort of muted blue color
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: fingernail polish, they might think nothing of it. There's like, oh,
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: this is a person who likes to look nice, or
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: maybe not even go that far. So I do think
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: you're absolutely right that there are going to be people
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: who have an interpretation of that, even if the colors
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: themselves don't carry any inherent meaning. That's not to say
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: they don't carry any societal cultural meaning, which is absolutely
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: the case. And it's all also absolutely correct to point
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: out that the effects of us choosing to present ourselves
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: in a particular way affect those who choose to present
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: themselves in a particular way, for example, in this discussion
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: with or without augmentations in the form of makeup. But
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: you could also expand that to things like what kind
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: of shirts you wear, what kind of glasses you choose
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: to wear, and what color or style your hair is,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: what other jewelry you wear, how much of your skin
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: you expose, like all of those are things that are
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: going to have an effect on those around you, and
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: vice versa, like the things that other people do will
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: have that effect as well. Like some people just want
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: to stand out, So if they were normally someone who
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: wears pajamas all the time, and then all of a
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: sudden everyone wears pajamas. That person might elect to go
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: the opposite direction if their main intention with their clothing
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: choices was to be stand was for their clothing to
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: stand out amongst the noise, if you will. So all
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: of that is to say that all these are great points.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: I appreciate the thoughtful feedback on this because I agree completely.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah one PC, all right, those kind of a long
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: listener mail, but it was really good, so I wanted
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: to get into it. Are we ready for Do you
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: have more to add to to any comments? For you wishing?
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: You know, like I wish I wish that we had
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: more time in the week to cover all the things
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: that we want to cover in the episodes too, like
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: and it's just like it's you know, by the nature
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: of the format doesn't allow us to cover as much as.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: We want, or sometimes we miss things.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: So like we appreciate this feedback because like maybe we
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: missed an angle that we didn't think about, or you know,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: maybe we missed out at points, or or we cut
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: it for time, right, So like, please continue to reach
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: out to us and give us that feedback because it's
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: incredibly helpful.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, all right, then let's recommend some things.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we recommendations.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: I am recommending a recent movie. I believe that the
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: time of this recording it will still be in theaters.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: This is the new Jurassic World movie called Jurassic World Rebirth.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: It is a starline Scarlett Johansson and Herschela Ali and
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: a bunch of other really fantastic The cast is really
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: good in this. I will say like, I don't think
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: this is the best dinosaur movie ever made, but given
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: the trend that, like the Jurassic movies had been on recently,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: I actually really appreciate the approach they took to this one.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: It felt like it was more grounded. They had Essentially,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: you kind of have a smaller group with a specific
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: objective that doesn't feel like it's always necessarily end of
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: the world or whatever. So there were a couple of
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: tropes in there that I didn't necessarily feel like I needed.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: But honestly, I thought the movie worked really well. They
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: had some homages to the very first Jurassic Park movie,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: which were good, and I think that they did a
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: good job of writing a just a cohesive, digestible narrative
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: that made sense all the way through, and I thought
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: was fine. And so it's not the best movie you'll
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: ever see, but if you want to go see dinosaurs
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: on the big screen again, like they did a good job.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: Like I do think this is one of the better
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: ones of all the sort of sequels and remakes and
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: whatnot that have been coming out.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: I backed this. I completely agree.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: It was it was just a fun It was a
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: fun jaunt into a deadly dinosaur island.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and like I actually really enjoy the absurdity of
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: all of the Godzilla and like King Kong movies, they're
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: absolutely absurd, And I think I mostly like this better
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: than some of those movies like those were those are
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: a lot of fun and they're like a good turn
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: off your brain and just sort of like enjoy the
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: spectacle type thing. This one, actually, I think even worked
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: a little bit better from like a movie storytelling perspective.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I recommend going out and checking it out.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: It's it's it was pretty good from my perspective at least.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: Plus, you can't go wrong with Carl Johansson and marschal
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: Ali like great cast in this one.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so good.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: All right, I'm gonna recommend an adventure tour. Speaking of
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: Jurassic Park. So I live in Florida, which is, you know,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: in and of itself kind of like its.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: Own Jurassic Park.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: But there is about an hour south of where I
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: live is a tour booking company called BK Adventure Tours.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: I probably recommended them before because a couple of years
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: ago I had done a thing with them. And so
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: over the summer they do these like guided tours, these
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: kayak tours or raft tours, and they take you out
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: into the inner coastal waters and they take you into
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: like some of the mangroves and stuff. And right now
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: is like a beautiful time for it because it is
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: the biolumin essence blooms.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: Oh so cool.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: Last night I got to go into a I got
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: to do a kayak tour and a clear kayak, a
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: glass bottom kayak. Got to go out into the inner
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: coastal and it was so bright blue, it's like it's
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: it was one of those things where it looked like
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: it was fake, like it looked like it couldn't be real.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: And because it takes place in a state park, there's
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: very little light pollution, except for you can see lights
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: from Kennedy Space Center, so like, you know, sometimes you
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: can do these tours and go out when there's like
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: rocket launches too, which is really cool. Yeah, but you know,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: you go out and it's like pitch black. You see
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: the you know, blinking lights from the tour guides and stuff.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: So you can also see you know, all the stars
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: in the universe right in front of you.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: Wow, all of them.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: That's every single one of them, right, which is like wild.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: Like that's that's why this tour is like pretty good, right,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: But like where we're at, there's enough, there's such limited
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: light pollution. You can actually see like some of the
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: bands in the Milky Way as well, Like you can
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: see some of the dust particles and the clouds that
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: exist in the Milky Way. You can see that across
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: the sky. So it's a very cool experience. Stars in
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: the water, stars in the air. It's really really cool.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: So strong recommend if you're ever in Florida during the
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: summer and you get to do this.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: That sounds super fun. I'm assuming you're not going through
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: the snake infested waters where they have nine hundred foot pythons. Uh, sure,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: Well that a harder the swallow yeaheah No.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: It's uh, it's brackish water, so like they don't like
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: to hang out in a lot of the brackish water
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: they tend to hang out and like and it's not
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: near the everglades, like the the giant pythons are down
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: in the everglades, so there are there's always the risk
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: of animals and nature and stuff like that. But where
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: is that is like more unlikely. It's not likely that
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: an alligator is going to be in that water because
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: it's brackish.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: So but there's sea life.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, there were crabs like swimming and they were
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: lighting it, which was cool because the crabs were swimming
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: through the water and they were lighting up because the
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: biolumin essence, so it was like a blue It looked
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: like Malana like you know, except for like Florida.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: So it's like crabs and like weird birds and stuff.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: So okay, that sounds really fun and it sounds like
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: something that I would like to do, but very very
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: good to know. Cool, all right, So that is Jurassic
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: World Rebirth the movie and BK Adventure tours for going
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: out and doing super dangerous stuff with animals down in Florida.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: But those that is what we have to say about
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: paraphilias and the things that we recommended. So as I said,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: please reach out to us, we'd love to hear from you.
• 1:06:42
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• 1:06:45
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• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: I got our merch store working again, I think that
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: is it, so I would get to sign off here.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: I feel good.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening. This is Abraham and this
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: is Shane. We're out.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: So yeah, you've been listening to Why we do what
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: we do. You can learn more about this and other
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: episodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: and we hope you have an awesome day