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We Need to Talk About Christian-Curious Celebrities || SLP514 · The Speak Life Podcast

0:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, hello and welcome back to the Speak Life Podcast.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: My name is Thomas Tharagood, media producer at Speak Life.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: And in this episode of the Speak Life Podcast, Glenn Scrivener will be talking about bandwagoning.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's right.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: When celebrities seem to be showing an interest in Christianity, how do we respond to that?
0:27
SPEAKER_00: There are often good reasons for being cautious, as we shall see, but actually maybe there is some kind of cultural moment that is happening.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: But first, I'd just like to briefly draw your attention, dear listener, to the upcoming Speak Life Intensive.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's happening in our studio on the south coast of England in Eastbourne from the 10th to the 14th of June 2024.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: So that's coming up pretty quickly.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: What is a Speak Life Intensive?
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Great question.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: They happen once a time, and they are the ultimate opportunity to come and spend a week with us.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Meet the team, learn the craft, catch the vision, and it's an opportunity to spend time together reflecting on theology and creativity and how those intersect.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: And the theme of this upcoming one in June is Ancient and Modern.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: How can we uphold the distinctive and surprising nature of the gospel without being inaccessible?
1:30
SPEAKER_00: It would be easy to view ancient and modern as a trade-off, but we think they go hand in hand when it comes to proclaiming the gospel.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: So if that is of interest to you, why not join us for the whole week?
1:44
SPEAKER_00: It's a great time of fellowship, a great opportunity to meet lots of other Christians who are interested in these sorts of things.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: But if you can't make the whole week, don't worry, because it's possible to come for a day or two, depending on how much availability you have.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: So just go to speaklife.org.uk forward slash intensives to find out more and to sign up.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Speaklife.org.uk forward slash intensives.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Couple of frequently asked questions I often get.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: People say to me, Oh, I'd love to come to the Speak Life Intensive, but I'm just not creative at all.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: Can I still come?
2:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, you can.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: For one thing, you might be more creative than you think, but even if you're not, um, we have all sorts of people who come.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh, some people who are uh full-time artists, but others who don't really have a creative outlet of themselves that they're actively pursuing, but they're interested in storytelling to some degree or creativity to some degree, and how they can uh bring that more perhaps into their ministry or their writing or whatever it may be.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: And I would say if you're interested in the theme of ancient and modern, it's gonna be a great week for you.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: Now, the other thing I get asked, which is very understandable, is well, what actually happens on each day?
3:03
SPEAKER_00: And that's a good question if you're thinking about signing up.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: You just want to have a sense of what you're in for.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: So I just thought I'd very quickly run through the intensive schedule as it stands, and that might give you an idea of maybe if you can only make a day or two, which days might be especially interesting for you.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: So, Monday, the 10th of June, it will kick off as always with prayer and worship, and then Glenn Scrivener will take us through the theme, Ancient and Modern Part 1.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: Nate Morganlock, who runs the Reformed Mythologist YouTube channel from Speak Life, he will be doing a session on Promethean myths and the god who gives generously.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: Hmm, that's intriguing, isn't it?
3:50
SPEAKER_00: And then there'll be lunch, and then Nate will do another session on the creative journey.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: We then have afternoon tea, and after that, we will introduce this project that will be happening throughout the week called the Ancient and Modern Christmas Outreach Video Project.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: So the intensive attendees will be in groups and we'll have the opportunity to plan a little video about Christmas in some way, because you know, I know Christmas is a bit of a way away, but as Speak Life, we're beginning to think about what we're doing for our Christmas video.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: So you'll get a little introduction to what that practical will entail throughout the week.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Tuesday, it will begin again with prayer and worship, then ancient and modern part two with Glenn.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: And then Harry Weller, one of our Speak Life students, will be doing a session on ancient and modern art.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Then Max Patterson, who had my job before I did, and he'll be there.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh, me and him will do a session on filming principles, and then in the afternoon we will continue with the practical, and that will be uh a location scout.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: So you can check out some locations in Eastbourne where you might want to make this Christmas video, and you can begin filming it as well.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, if you're not a filmmaker, don't worry, because each group will have someone in it who's had some experience using a camera and doing editing.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: So if all you can do is just contribute to the ideas of what could go into these little short films, that's great.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: And then on the Tuesday evening we often go to the pub together, so that'll be good fun, won't it?
5:28
SPEAKER_00: Wednesday we'll begin with prayer and worship.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: Then Nate will do a session on metamodernism.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: Then Joe Levy, another one of our students, will do a session on ancient and modern music, and then we'll have tech time thinking about editing principles that you might want to use in these short film projects that you're developing throughout the week.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: And then we'll continue with those, uh, continue with shooting and editing.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: Thursday we'll begin with prayer and worship, then ancient and modern part three with Glenn, and then Eleanor, who is also one of our students, will do a session on ancient and modern fairy tales.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: Then we'll have tech time looking at editing principles in more detail, and then we'll continue with the practical by Thursday afternoon.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: Everyone will be editing their short Christmas video.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: And then Friday is just the morning because we realise people need to uh get home, some people have to make long journeys, so we begin with prayer and worship.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: Glenn will do Ancient and Modern Part 4, and then we will have Show and Tell, we'll be watching our Christmas outreach video project videos and see what people were able to make over the course of the week.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: And there's no pressure on these at all, we're not expecting them to be the most polished things, but it's just a fun opportunity to gather with some other Christians in a group and just have a go at making a short, engaging Christmas video.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: See what you come up with.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: And Max and myself will be there to assist with whatever technical support you might need.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: So I hope that gives you some idea of what's coming up.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited, and I hope to see as many of you there as possible.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: Go to speaklife.org.uk forward slash intensives to find out more and to sign up.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's all from me.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: Over to Glen and the issue of bandwagoning.
7:30
SPEAKER_05: What is it that links Jordan Peterson?
7:32
SPEAKER_05: The death and resurrection, Louise Perry, Christian ideas are sociologically true.
7:36
SPEAKER_05: Constantine Kisson.
7:37
SPEAKER_05: It would be fair to say that I'm a lapsed atheist.
7:40
SPEAKER_05: Francis Foster.
7:41
SPEAKER_03: The vast majority of people need religion.
7:44
SPEAKER_03: They just need it.
7:45
SPEAKER_05: Joe Rogan.
7:45
SPEAKER_05: We need Jesus.
7:47
SPEAKER_05: I think for real.
7:48
SPEAKER_05: Nick Cave.
7:49
SPEAKER_03: You know, I pray, I read the Bible.
7:51
SPEAKER_05: Ayan Hersy Ali.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: That's actually a description of Jesus Christ.
7:56
SPEAKER_05: Neil Ferguson.
7:57
SPEAKER_05: I am a lapsed atheist.
7:58
SPEAKER_05: Kat von Deep.
7:59
SPEAKER_02: I'm on fire for Jesus.
8:00
SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't plan on this dimming out now the rain.
8:04
SPEAKER_02: I was looking at my fireplace.
8:05
SPEAKER_02: I grabbed the Bible.
8:06
SPEAKER_02: I was like, God, I need an answer now.
8:09
SPEAKER_02: I truly need an answer now.
8:10
SPEAKER_02: And he gave me an answer.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: Russell Brand.
8:13
SPEAKER_02: I found it in that humble place in Christianity and in particular in the figure of Christ.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: Andrew Huberman.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: I believe in God.
8:20
SPEAKER_05: I do.
8:20
SPEAKER_05: These are all very public figures who in the last year have expressed some kind of Christian curiosity, if not Christian faith, if not Christian baptism.
8:29
SPEAKER_05: And we'll think about the differences between all these different people and will question whether Christians are bandwagoning off the back of the popularity of these figures.
8:39
SPEAKER_05: What is bandwagoning?
8:41
SPEAKER_05: What is the danger involved?
8:42
SPEAKER_05: And is it true that you can't celebrate these stories without being accused of bandwagoning?
8:48
SPEAKER_05: Now I'm making no claims for the personal faith of any of these public figures that I've just mentioned.
8:55
SPEAKER_05: I've done extensive videos on Jordan Peterson every single time I've mentioned him.
8:59
SPEAKER_05: I've mentioned various caveats and cautions.
9:02
SPEAKER_05: I'm not saying that when Joe Rogan says we need Jesus, that means he is just on the brink of uh baptism.
9:08
SPEAKER_05: And I'm not saying that I vouch for the personal integrity and uh enduring faithfulness of Russell Brand or Andrew Huberman.
9:16
SPEAKER_05: It's interesting with those two figures that their interest in Christianity has gone hand in hand with public scandals about their personal lives.
9:24
SPEAKER_05: Uh certainly Russell's more serious than Andrew's.
9:28
SPEAKER_05: I've done videos on Russell Brand in the past and uh taken very seriously those allegations that are against him, and I hope he takes those seriously, and I hope whoever is discipling him takes those very seriously.
9:40
SPEAKER_05: But this is not about owning these guys for Team Jesus as though, hey, we're the cool kids again.
9:47
SPEAKER_05: Um I have no interest in that whatsoever.
9:50
SPEAKER_05: Um whenever you talk about famous Christians, certainly in the last five years, people will bring up the name Kanye West.
9:57
SPEAKER_05: And uh I want to reassure you that the only video we did at the time when Kanye West came out with his Jesus is King album uh was this one.
10:06
SPEAKER_05: Don't worry, it's meant to be cringe, by the way.
10:08
SPEAKER_04: And it is.
10:11
SPEAKER_04: Excuse me?
10:12
SPEAKER_04: Oh, Kanye's new album?
10:14
SPEAKER_04: Jesus is King.
10:16
SPEAKER_04: Oh, right.
10:17
SPEAKER_04: It's uh it's it's it's flipping ace.
10:21
SPEAKER_04: Ace?
10:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's you know it's it's legit.
10:26
SPEAKER_04: It's it's it's legit lit, you know.
10:30
SPEAKER_04: I mean obviously I can't hear Kanye the way you can hear Kanye, but you know, I'm listening.
10:39
SPEAKER_04: You know?
10:42
SPEAKER_05: Teach me.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: Hey Christian, wanna jump on the Kanye bandwagon but don't know how?
10:51
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10:57
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11:03
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11:08
SPEAKER_01: Download the app today.
11:27
SPEAKER_05: Mary to Jordan, I'm gonna locate them, but now I'm gonna straight up you stay.
11:39
SPEAKER_05: Um and then it's Paul Feasy and uh props to Benjamin Holmes.
11:45
SPEAKER_05: Is that what the kids say?
11:46
SPEAKER_05: Props to Benjamin Holmes and the rich dulcet Tennessee tones of Nick Haas.
11:54
SPEAKER_05: Uh so uh that's kind of what we thought uh uh about Kanye and all the noise that was around Kanye, as though it's just now cool uh to be a Christian because a rapper is a Christian.
12:11
SPEAKER_05: And we were poking fun at bandwagoning at that point, and there is such a thing as Christian bandwagoning.
12:16
SPEAKER_05: Oh look, Justin Bieber went to Hillsong.
12:18
SPEAKER_05: Maybe that makes him cool.
12:20
SPEAKER_05: Um maybe that makes me cool.
12:22
SPEAKER_05: Maybe he rubs his coolness off on me because I'm somehow associated with the cachet that is attached to Justin Bieber.
12:29
SPEAKER_05: You know, it's such a tenuous argument, isn't it?
12:31
SPEAKER_05: Um The problem is though, whenever any Christian sort of tries to point to perhaps a cultural moment happening, they're in danger of being accused of bandwagoning.
12:42
SPEAKER_05: Oh, you're just mentioning Ayan Hersy Ali and Neil Ferguson and Louise Perry and Nick Cave.
12:47
SPEAKER_05: You're just doing that because you want to be one of the cool kids, and you're bandwagoning, and it's just uh you're you're in hock to popularity, and therefore you're not forwarding the truthfulness of Christianity, you're just forwarding the the the popularity of Christianity and hoping that people uh are seduced by chasing popularity and discovering Jesus along the way.
13:11
SPEAKER_05: And isn't that a shaky foundation for the faith?
13:13
SPEAKER_05: Well, yes, that would be a very shaky foundation for the faith, but I don't think that's what's going on when we talk about this movement.
13:20
SPEAKER_05: And I do think that there is something of a movement in which people like Ayan Hersie Ali and Neil Ferguson are sliding into a pew on a Sunday morning and learning a little more from Jesus Sunday by Sunday, and talking about that publicly, I don't think that's just bandwagoning to point that out, because there are such things as plausibility structures.
13:41
SPEAKER_05: Have you heard about plausibility structures?
13:42
SPEAKER_05: Peter Berger, the sociologist, um, speaks, especially in the religious realm, but in all kinds of realms of ideology, um, we are not atomized individuals coming to separate conclusions about how the world runs.
13:58
SPEAKER_05: That's that's not how you tick, that's not how I tick.
14:00
SPEAKER_05: We are members of a community, and as we lean into the community, it becomes more plausible to believe what the community believes.
14:08
SPEAKER_05: That's why Paul Vanderclay, uh, a great YouTuber in this space, is always saying, if you want to believe certain truths, find a community of people who believe those things and join it.
14:20
SPEAKER_05: That's brilliant advice.
14:21
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely brilliant advice.
14:23
SPEAKER_05: He's also uh the person who said, Why do you believe in the resurrection?
14:27
SPEAKER_05: He says, Because my mum and dad have believed in the resurrection.
14:31
SPEAKER_05: And I have seen in their lives the ways in which the risen Christ has shaped them.
14:36
SPEAKER_05: And so I believe in the resurrection because my parents do.
14:39
SPEAKER_05: Right?
14:40
SPEAKER_05: And there's a huge degree to which you believe what you believe because of the people who surround you, and not because you're an atomized individual who is coming to your own conclusions about life.
14:52
SPEAKER_05: You're not like that.
14:54
SPEAKER_05: Life is not like that, people are not like that.
14:58
SPEAKER_05: We need plausibility structures that wrap around us.
15:02
SPEAKER_05: And what one of the things I I sometimes do with people is I I ask them, which of these two statements do you think is more true?
15:09
SPEAKER_05: I don't think we should lean fully into either one of them, but which of these things do you think is more true?
15:14
SPEAKER_05: Do we think our way into a new way of life, or do we live our way into a new way of thinking?
15:22
SPEAKER_05: Which is it?
15:23
SPEAKER_05: Do we think our way into a new way of life, or do we live our way into a new way of thinking?
15:30
SPEAKER_05: And I think everything about the Bible, everything about the history of Christianity, everything about our theological anthropology would teach you that we actually it's more true to say that we live our way into a new way of thinking.
15:42
SPEAKER_05: Now that doesn't mean that a truth cannot strike us like a bolt from the blue and arrest us and turn us around entirely and uh become this Damascus Road experience.
15:54
SPEAKER_05: Paul had a Damascus Road experience in which Jesus, the truth, arrested him.
15:59
SPEAKER_05: He was involved in a certain community and he defined himself against a certain community called Christianity.
16:06
SPEAKER_05: So what whatever was going to convert the Apostle Paul was going to have to be an immense turnaround.
16:12
SPEAKER_05: But he was confronted by the risen Christ and he turned around and suddenly the people who were his friends became his enemies, and the people who who were his enemies became his friends.
16:21
SPEAKER_05: And there was that Damascus Road experience, but that is very rare.
16:26
SPEAKER_05: And nobody should really chase Damascus Road experiences.
16:29
SPEAKER_05: It was a one-off to create an apostle.
16:32
SPEAKER_05: It's not the paradigm for how we come to believe.
16:35
SPEAKER_05: You know how we come to believe?
16:37
SPEAKER_05: It's far more like the road to Emmaus.
16:39
SPEAKER_05: You know the road to Emmaus.
16:40
SPEAKER_05: You've got a couple who are walking along together and they're sad because they've just seen Jesus crucified, but it's Easter Sunday.
16:48
SPEAKER_05: News has started to trickle through that some people are saying Jesus is alive, but these these two don't believe yet.
16:54
SPEAKER_05: And in a community of two, they are in one sense reinforcing one another in their despair.
17:02
SPEAKER_05: You know, we had hoped, they keep on saying.
17:04
SPEAKER_05: We had hoped, we had hoped, but no longer.
17:06
SPEAKER_05: And so they're in one sort of community, and Jesus appears to them on a road.
17:11
SPEAKER_05: But it's not like the road to Damascus.
17:13
SPEAKER_05: The road to Damascus is a one-off that created an apostle.
17:16
SPEAKER_05: The road to Emmaus, I think, is far more a paradigm for how everybody comes to faith.
17:21
SPEAKER_05: And Jesus gets into conversation with them and starts asking, Well, what things have happened?
17:26
SPEAKER_05: Tell tell me more about this Jesus figure, says Jesus, while he's incognito.
17:31
SPEAKER_05: And faith is a journey that begins when you start to recognize incognito Jesus in things.
18:00
SPEAKER_05: But he similarly is noticing things and starting to say, we need Jesus.
18:05
SPEAKER_05: He's he's noticing a Jesus-shaped hole in things, and incognito Jesus is surrounding him, and he's becoming aware of that.
18:13
SPEAKER_05: And then you'll know in the story of the road to Emmaus, it's found in Luke chapter 24, if you want to look it up.
18:19
SPEAKER_05: Jesus starts a Bible study with them.
18:22
SPEAKER_05: And and he kind of confronts them on the road that they're on, and he says how foolish and slow and slow of heart you are to believe all that the prophets have said.
18:31
SPEAKER_05: And then he starts talking about Moses and the prophets and how you know these things must happen, that Christ must suffer and rise again.
18:39
SPEAKER_05: At that point, Jesus brings them a pair of spectacles called Scripture, and he's like, Well, stop looking at life that way because if we just look through naturalized, Jesus will continue to be invisible to us.
18:51
SPEAKER_05: Put on the spectacles of scripture and look again.
18:53
SPEAKER_05: And so you have to repent of your slow of heartness and your hard-heartedness.
18:58
SPEAKER_05: And you need to look again through the lens of scripture, and through the lens of scripture, you'll start to see things alright.
19:04
SPEAKER_05: And this is what people like Ion Jose Ali are doing.
19:07
SPEAKER_05: This is what people like Neil Ferguson are doing.
19:09
SPEAKER_05: Jordan Peterson is walking people through Bible stories kind of step by step, by step by step.
19:15
SPEAKER_05: And there is that part of the process.
19:18
SPEAKER_05: But what's interesting to me is that that is not the moment of their eyes opening and them believing in the resurrection.
19:27
SPEAKER_05: Now, speaking as an evangelical Protestant, I would like the story to be there was one person walking along along the road to Emmaus, all by themselves.
19:40
SPEAKER_05: They get confronted by the truth, and they see like a scripture that completely, you know, reorients them, and they say, I now believe in the resurrection, and they become an individual believer.
19:54
SPEAKER_05: That would be the the the hyper Protestant version of the road to Emmaus.
19:58
SPEAKER_05: But what happens is in community scriptures are brought to bear and they they do have to repent and look through a different pair of spectacles.
20:06
SPEAKER_05: But they they start to see things in a new way, but the journey is not yet complete.
20:12
SPEAKER_05: Jesus makes like he's gonna go further, and then good Middle Eastern people will of course show hospitality and uh say, No, we we insist, come home with us and share a meal with us.
20:24
SPEAKER_05: And so he comes home with this couple, and it's in this mini church setting, right?
20:31
SPEAKER_05: Where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus, in this mini church setting, in the breaking of bread, this very sacramental act, you know, Jesus gives thanks and breaks bread and shares it with them.
20:43
SPEAKER_05: And in the breaking of bread, their eyes are open in community, in church, through the sacraments, the penny drops.
20:54
SPEAKER_05: And interestingly, they then say, Ah, were not our hearts burning when we were walking along the road?
21:01
SPEAKER_05: And isn't that interesting?
21:02
SPEAKER_05: Like, in a sense, their heart their hearts were burning while they were walking along the road, but they weren't cognizant of the fact that their hearts were burning, but they weren't really aware of the impact that the Word of God was have having on them while they were just outside of the church, right?
21:20
SPEAKER_05: While it was just a Bible study, they weren't yet converted.
21:26
SPEAKER_05: They were converted in the context of a church community, in the context of the breaking of bread, this very sacramental act.
21:33
SPEAKER_05: And then their eyes are open, they see who Jesus is, and they recognize the truths of scripture in a new and fresh way.
21:42
SPEAKER_05: And Jesus sort of leaves, and and then they become witnesses to the resurrection and off they go out into the world.
21:48
SPEAKER_05: I think the road to Emmaus is the paradigm for conversion.
21:52
SPEAKER_05: The road to Damascus is not the paradigm for conversion.
21:55
SPEAKER_05: And if we think that the road to Damascus is the paradigm for conversion, we will Be tempted to do away with all plausibility structures, and we will think of ourselves as atomized individuals.
22:06
SPEAKER_05: We are all just the Apostle Paul who just need to have an individual encounter with the truth.
22:12
SPEAKER_05: That is not how anyone operates.
22:15
SPEAKER_05: Like the road to Damascus was absolutely a one-off.
22:19
SPEAKER_05: The road to Emmaus is actually how people come to faith, and they come to faith in community.
22:24
SPEAKER_05: Yes, with scripture.
22:26
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
22:27
SPEAKER_05: But with scripture in community and the breaking of bread.
22:31
SPEAKER_05: That's why Paul Vanderclay says if you want to believe something, join a community of people who are believing these things.
22:39
SPEAKER_05: So how am I tying this together with the bandwagoning conversation?
22:42
SPEAKER_05: There is a way of bandwagoning.
22:44
SPEAKER_05: We didn't jump on the Kanye bandwagon.
22:46
SPEAKER_05: We made fun of the people who who were just glad to be one of the cool kids now.
22:53
SPEAKER_05: Um, because Kanye uh was a Christian.
22:58
SPEAKER_05: We only made fun of that, and five years later, Kanye is starting his own porn site.
23:04
SPEAKER_05: He's gone from Sunday services to starting a porn site, how the mighty have fallen.
23:12
SPEAKER_05: Um and that shows the danger.
23:13
SPEAKER_05: There is a danger to bandwagoning, and there is a danger to exalting famous Christians as the these figures that we sort of hitch ourselves to and try and get cachet from.
23:28
SPEAKER_05: That is obviously problematic.
23:31
SPEAKER_05: It's problematic for us, it's problematic for the witness of Christ, and it's very problematic for those figures themselves.
23:39
SPEAKER_05: Kanye is exhibit A in that.
23:42
SPEAKER_05: But there's also a danger for other figures.
23:44
SPEAKER_05: Ayan Hersey Ali, I've I've been um really moved by her conversion to Christianity and concerned that about a week ago she was in conversation with Richard Dawkins, which I mean, there is a baptism of fire, right?
23:59
SPEAKER_05: Um, somebody who is a very new Christian um is figuring out her Christianity in public, and then she says yes to like a debate with the foremost atheist of our day um publicly in New York.
24:17
SPEAKER_05: And and I thought to myself, oh, that's probably unwise, Ayan.
24:21
SPEAKER_05: But from all accounts, and I I'd love to watch the tapes of this, and and I I I beg you, dissident dialogues, release the tapes.
24:28
SPEAKER_05: We we must see this this um dialogue.
24:31
SPEAKER_05: But the the little snippets I've seen of it, she seems to do brilliantly well.
24:36
SPEAKER_05: And and actually her humility and her faltering vulnerability comes across better than any kind of assured dogmatism ever could.
24:46
SPEAKER_05: So um I I I think she did as well as she could in that situation.
24:51
SPEAKER_05: But it's it's very dangerous to put forward Ayan Hersiali as, you know, your champion.
24:56
SPEAKER_05: But I don't think I'm doing that.
24:59
SPEAKER_05: And I I don't think that any Christian who is noticing that these people are claiming Christian faith, they're not necessarily bandwagoning.
25:08
SPEAKER_05: What they are doing is operating according to a true theological anthropology.
25:12
SPEAKER_05: They're operating according to how we actually tick.
25:16
SPEAKER_05: And how we actually tick is not that we think ourselves into a new way of living, that so often we live ourselves into a new way of thinking.
25:25
SPEAKER_05: And with Russell Brand, for instance, he has 6.5 million awakening wonders.
25:32
SPEAKER_05: What does he say on his YouTube channel?
25:34
SPEAKER_05: Um, and and he's got millions of followers, many of whom come behind the paywall and join his community.
25:41
SPEAKER_05: And you know what he's doing with his community?
25:43
SPEAKER_05: He's doing mere Christianity with them.
25:45
SPEAKER_05: And before that, I think he did Problem of Pain with them, and before before that he did um uh the purpose-driven life with them.
25:52
SPEAKER_05: Now, I I make no claims for Russell Brand's own personal faith.
25:57
SPEAKER_05: And I think it can be dangerous if a whole bunch of people believe more in Russell than they do in Jesus.
26:03
SPEAKER_05: But that's a that's a massive problem.
26:05
SPEAKER_05: But if there is a community of people um reading such books together, I think God is up to something, and I think God is doing something in this moment.
26:16
SPEAKER_05: That does put added importance on the integrity of the walks of these Christian figures.
26:21
SPEAKER_05: And and we we mustn't put that pressure on them.
26:24
SPEAKER_05: But I don't think I'm putting pressure on Ayan Hersy Ali to to every now and again say, gosh, she is naming a reality in the culture and a naming a reality in her own heart that I think is blessing a lot of different people.
26:37
SPEAKER_05: It's tricky though, isn't it?
26:38
SPEAKER_05: It's tricky.
26:39
SPEAKER_05: You might be putting more pressure on them than they are able to bear.
26:42
SPEAKER_05: That's absolutely true.
26:43
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I do think it's possible to look at these movements and say, in the broader culture, it is now more plausible to say I'm reading the Bible.
26:55
SPEAKER_05: And it is.
26:56
SPEAKER_05: Okay, I'm an evangelist, I go around the country, I go sometimes overseas, and I'm encountering a lot of people who are on journeys to faith, and a lot of them are saying, Well, Jordan, Jordan Peterson told me to tidy my room.
27:08
SPEAKER_05: I tidied my room and life got better.
27:10
SPEAKER_05: Jordan Peterson told me to read the Bible, I've read the Bible and I'm encountering something huge and life-changing.
27:16
SPEAKER_05: Can you help me with it?
27:17
SPEAKER_05: People are saying that, okay?
27:19
SPEAKER_05: People are starting to say to me things like, Well, the Bible built the modern world, and I don't really understand the Bible, so I thought I would take myself off to church.
27:28
SPEAKER_05: I've got a neighbor who's just like like said that in the last 18 months, and he's taken himself and his family off to church because of that.
27:35
SPEAKER_05: Another friend has started reading the Bible for exactly the same reason.
27:38
SPEAKER_05: In the water, there is the idea that we're in some kind of meaning crisis, even if people aren't naming it as the meaning crisis.
27:44
SPEAKER_05: Our little corner of the internet names it as the meaning crisis.
27:47
SPEAKER_05: Everyone else feels it as a meaning crisis, and a lot of people are recognizing whether they've read Tom Holland's Dominion or not, whether they have it sitting on their shelf or not, whether they've ever listened to the rest of his history podcast or not, people are recognizing that Christianity has built the modern world.
28:02
SPEAKER_05: And that's how you know that these ripple effects are much broader than the single individuals.
28:09
SPEAKER_05: People who have never heard of Tom Holland are on the Tom Holland train, right?
28:14
SPEAKER_05: People who haven't heard of the Jordan Peterson phenomenon are nonetheless on some kind of Jordan Peterson-y train.
28:20
SPEAKER_05: And look, like I hope that they kind of change stations and get onto the Tom Holland train, and then I hope they change stations and get onto the Ion Hershey Alley train, and I and I hope that really they get onto the Jesus train.
28:31
SPEAKER_05: But these things are so much more plausible because of the cultural moment that we're in.
28:37
SPEAKER_05: And I don't know if you're noticing this.
28:38
SPEAKER_05: Let me know in the comments if you're noticing more of an interest in Christianity that as the meaning crisis hits, as we are very much at a low ebb in terms of Christian influence on society, people are wanting a return of something meaningful, a return of something true and good and beautiful, and people are starting to seek Christ in a new way.
29:05
SPEAKER_05: To the point where Brian Cox last week um did an interview and he he had this go at the Bible.
29:12
SPEAKER_05: Let's have a look.
29:13
SPEAKER_03: The propaganda goes right the way back.
29:15
SPEAKER_03: The Bible is one of the worst books ever, for me, from my point of view, because it starts with the idea that Adam's rib, you know, that out of Adam's rib, this woman was created.
29:23
SPEAKER_03: I don't believe it.
29:25
SPEAKER_03: Because they're stupid enough.
29:27
SPEAKER_05: And when Brian Cox does that, it just strikes me as such an okay boomer moment.
29:31
SPEAKER_05: Like it's it's like Gramps, read the room.
29:34
SPEAKER_05: Everyone loves the Bible now.
29:35
SPEAKER_05: Like you're out of touch, right?
29:38
SPEAKER_05: People have wanted me to respond to Brian Cox's like video, but it's it seems to me like his video is stuck from 10 years ago.
29:44
SPEAKER_05: Like that that's the conversation we were having 10 years ago.
29:47
SPEAKER_05: And 10 years ago, his voice was part of a chorus that was incredibly loud, and you felt like you had to respond to Brian Cox and oh, is is the Bible really tenable?
29:55
SPEAKER_05: And can we really like like, but honestly, in 2024, that video comes out and everyone's like, okay, boomer.
30:02
SPEAKER_05: That's that's nowhere, that's nowhere so many people are.
30:06
SPEAKER_05: And you can shrug that off a lot more.
30:09
SPEAKER_05: And you think, well, but that's not rational.
30:11
SPEAKER_05: You haven't rationally engaged with his argument.
30:13
SPEAKER_05: Well, he hasn't made a rational argument.
30:15
SPEAKER_05: And actually, so much of the new atheism didn't make any rational arguments either.
30:20
SPEAKER_05: People don't change their minds because of rational arguments.
30:23
SPEAKER_05: Right?
30:24
SPEAKER_05: You know the saying when people say you cannot argue someone out of a position they were not argued into.
30:29
SPEAKER_05: Have you ever heard that?
30:29
SPEAKER_05: You can't argue someone out of a position they weren't argued into.
30:32
SPEAKER_05: And it's meant to be this kind of rare exceptional case where someone wasn't argued into a position, so you can't argue them out of it.
30:40
SPEAKER_05: But you can argue most people out of most positions most of the time, because we have this nuts idea that people were argued into the positions that they take.
30:48
SPEAKER_05: Nobody is argued into the positions that they take.
30:51
SPEAKER_05: 98% of the things that I believe are because of the community that's around me.
30:55
SPEAKER_05: Like very little of what I believe is because I sat down and I wrapped a wet towel around my head and I thought really hard independently about what to believe about something.
31:05
SPEAKER_05: Nobody acts like that.
31:06
SPEAKER_05: You just believe what your mates think.
31:08
SPEAKER_05: You just believe what your community thinks, you just believe what your family thinks, right?
31:12
SPEAKER_05: And even if you rebel against your family, it's because you've got these friends over here.
31:16
SPEAKER_05: It's it's about community, right?
31:19
SPEAKER_05: And so the whole saying you can't argue somebody out of a position they weren't argued into, that's true.
31:24
SPEAKER_05: It's just that people aren't really argued into positions either.
31:28
SPEAKER_05: They're not argued out of positions, they're not argued into positions.
31:31
SPEAKER_05: Find a community of people who believe that thing and join it, and you'll find yourself believing those things.
31:37
SPEAKER_05: And right now, Brian Cox is far more of a voice in the wilderness saying, Hey guys, have you ever read the Bible?
31:44
SPEAKER_05: It's terrible.
31:44
SPEAKER_05: Like, because a much bigger chorus of people right now is saying, actually, uh, I'm not sure I go with the whole Bible thing, and I'm not sure how I should take it.
31:54
SPEAKER_05: And is it just figuratively true?
31:56
SPEAKER_05: Is it just sociologically true?
31:57
SPEAKER_05: I'm not sure whether it's supernaturally true, but my goodness, it is significant, and I'm going to give it a hearing.
32:03
SPEAKER_05: And that is certainly uh that's certainly the chorus that I'm hearing.
32:07
SPEAKER_05: You might be in a different media space, and therefore your media diet is saying something different.
32:12
SPEAKER_05: But certainly in in the algorithm sends me a whole bunch of people who are not Christians, but who are giving the Bible a hearing.
32:20
SPEAKER_05: And so Brian Cox makes his video, and I don't feel any need to kind of respond to it.
32:25
SPEAKER_05: And and I'm not going to argue him out of it because he wasn't argued into that antipathy.
32:30
SPEAKER_05: It's it's antipathy, right?
32:33
SPEAKER_05: And and so actually it's these cultural winds that are blowing back and forwards.
32:38
SPEAKER_05: And so, what do we need to do as the cultural winds are more favorable?
32:42
SPEAKER_05: Church, get ready.
32:44
SPEAKER_05: Get ready for people to come like Ayan Hersyelli and her husband Neil Ferguson, to slide themselves into your pew and to learn a little more about Jesus Sunday by Sunday.
32:54
SPEAKER_05: Get ready for some messy discipleship issues.
32:56
SPEAKER_05: If Russell Brand knocks on your door with his history and he wants Christian baptism, what will you do?
33:03
SPEAKER_05: It's not just an issue for Russell Brand, it will be an issue for so many people as they start to take Christianity more seriously.
33:11
SPEAKER_05: Church, be ready.
33:14
SPEAKER_05: Be ready for a lot of messy lives with a lot of messy discipleship issues and all sorts of repentance that they'll have to do.
33:23
SPEAKER_05: But I think this is a cultural moment.
33:26
SPEAKER_05: I wasn't completely convinced by Justin Briley's argument in the surprising rebirth of belief in God.
33:33
SPEAKER_05: I had him on our channel as he talked about, you know, are we seeing the signs of the tide of faith coming back in?
33:39
SPEAKER_05: I wasn't convinced right up until a couple of weeks ago, really.
33:43
SPEAKER_05: Um even when he wrote in The Spectator and and said, you know, are we seeing the signs of Christian revival?
33:49
SPEAKER_05: I was like, I don't know, I don't know.
33:52
SPEAKER_05: But I'm starting to see more and more evidence that that might back up Justin Briley's uh hypothesis.
33:59
SPEAKER_05: And therefore, church be ready.
34:01
SPEAKER_05: And be ready with what?
34:03
SPEAKER_05: Well, it's the road to Emmaus, isn't it?
34:05
SPEAKER_05: Be ready to point out incognito Jesus.
34:09
SPEAKER_05: Be ready to point out that Jesus is pressing into the lives of your friends and neighbors and co-workers.
34:16
SPEAKER_05: He is pressing into everybody's life constantly all the time.
34:19
SPEAKER_05: You might not know him as the person of Jesus, but Jesus has built your world culturally and ethically and morally and into at the level of intuition.
34:27
SPEAKER_05: Jesus has built the world that you live in.
34:30
SPEAKER_05: It's the air we breathe, right?
34:31
SPEAKER_05: The air we breathe.
34:32
SPEAKER_05: Be ready to talk about the impact of Jesus.
34:36
SPEAKER_05: And then secondly, be ready with scripture.
34:38
SPEAKER_05: People are hungry for scripture, okay?
34:41
SPEAKER_05: And offer scripture as these lenses that you can see the world through, and it will require repentance.
34:48
SPEAKER_05: You know, Jesus, when he brought out the the scriptures for the couple on the road to Omaeus, it wasn't like, here's some deep thoughts that will comfort you on your journey.
34:58
SPEAKER_05: No, it was it was like how foolish and slow of heart you are.
35:01
SPEAKER_05: You're thinking about things wrong.
35:02
SPEAKER_05: It it will be a wrench to see things differently.
35:06
SPEAKER_05: But people are ready to hear something different.
35:08
SPEAKER_05: So give them something different from the scriptures, and then do community.
35:13
SPEAKER_05: Because community is the plausibility structure in which faith happens.
35:19
SPEAKER_05: Get people to join you in meals, break bread with people, journey with people, and you will find that you don't so much think yourself into a new way of living, you live your way into a new way of thinking.
35:35
SPEAKER_05: Well, that's what I think about this current movement.
35:37
SPEAKER_05: What do you think?
35:38
SPEAKER_05: Let me know in the comments.
35:39
SPEAKER_05: And if you guys want to take a journey with Jesus and discover life according to Jesus, if you want to put those scriptural spectacles on, why don't you do 321?
35:47
SPEAKER_05: Go to 321course.com.
35:48
SPEAKER_05: It's completely free.
35:50
SPEAKER_05: You can be in there in a matter of seconds.
35:52
SPEAKER_05: Just start an account and get going.
35:54
SPEAKER_05: There are eight sessions, beautiful animations, lots of deep things to think about.
35:58
SPEAKER_05: And uh we'd love you to take that journey with 321.
36:01
SPEAKER_05: That'll do me for now.
36:02
SPEAKER_05: We'll see you on the next one.