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What’s Next After Running a Business? How to Redefine Your Career Path After Entrepreneurship · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a working one with over 17 years of print experience, and I'm the founder of the investing in women showful and community.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: In this show, I'm honored to be chatting with remarkable women, redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Little share of the secrets on how they're successfully children.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So a cup of coffee or a glass of wine.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you clean the safe and get ready to get inspired and chase your oldest dreams on just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is the Work It Like a Month podcast.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Search their website at investinginwomen.co.uk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, back to the show.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Today I am chatting with Kate Rainford Folkes, who is a leadership and career coach for ambitious mums.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And Kate got in touch with me because she had a topic that I thought was really timely that she wanted to talk about.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that I don't think is talked about enough.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: The transition from entrepreneurship to employment.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I was saying to Kate for I hit record, I have a lot of people on my recruitment books that are self-employed at the moment, whether that's coaching, VA, maybe they, you know, do consulting of some form or other and they want to move back into employment.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I thought this was going to be a really timely, meaty episode about how to frame that experience in a positive light.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you can transition seamlessly from self-employment to employment.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks so much, Kate, for joining me and suggesting this topic.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Liz.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure to be here.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: So do you have a lot of clients yourself that do you mind just giving us a little bit, I guess, of an overview about what you do and then I guess your clients and maybe their reasons for moving from entrepreneur of from entrepreneurship into self-employment?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: So into employment, not self-employment.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it does go both ways.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, absolutely.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I um set up my my coaching practice uh a year and a half ago, uh, came over coaching, and I work with women at uh career transition stages.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that can be all sorts of things from um stepping into senior leadership roles to coming back to work following maternity leave or you know, having had your kids and thinking, God, is this it for the next 20 years?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um and a number of clients I've worked with also come um come to me having had their own businesses and for various reasons, they now want to step away from that and search for an employed role, move back into employment.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that can come with quite a lot of emotional weight and uh an identity transition, identity change, sometimes identity loss.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of grief that sometimes comes with that.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, um, aside from all the practical steps that we also need to take in order to help them find what's next for them and to really start securing the the steps that will lead to their next job.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know, because actually, I was thinking back when I was in recruitment in an agency, and we'd get sometimes like people that had been self-employed wanting to apply for our jobs, and there is a bit of a stigma what there was then about um you know why people are moving back into employment.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess it's that before we hit record.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: What are the reasons do you think that people move from self-employment to employment?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you process that?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's so many reasons why people want to move away from self-employment, and whether that's having led a significant size of company or being a sole trader, I think often moving into foundership or moving into self uh self-employment comes at the right, the right stage of life for that person.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So they might value flexibility and autonomy um in perhaps ways that they didn't before.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe after having children, self-employment seems like the right way to go, or starting a business seems like it might give that flexibility.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And often it does, and it's great, and people are away with it.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but often it's not quite necessarily what somebody expects.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think regardless of whether their endeavor has succeeded or not, there are very good reasons that someone might want to step back into employment.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And those could be uh stability of earnings, uh, it could be working in a team, yeah uh, it could be things like needing more of a reliable nine to five.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps they need a bit more stability in terms of what their um their day-to-day looks like.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it can be just because they're exhausted, they might just be exhausted by running their business, um, it might be time to something else, or they could have sold the business, it might have succeeded, and they're looking to take their skill set into a new direction.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that I'm I hope you because there's tons of different reasons why somebody might move away from either self-employment or running a business and wanting to step back into working within an organization in a in a different way.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so much of that can come with complications and um and yeah, emotional weight that needs that needs resolving.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it's interesting because I guess there's I guess it always does feel a little bit like the grass is greener on the other side.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you're in employment, you maybe look at your um friends, people online that are running their own business, and it looks like you know they've got they're working from the beach.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: They, you know, people always post about 10k months, um, and you know, they've living the dream.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then the reality for a lot of people is that it's insta in stability, you know, your earnings do fluctuate from month to month.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: The 10k earnings definitely month months don't happen for a long, long time, if ever, for most people.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um I find personally you end up working much more hours being self-employed than you would employed, and it is much harder to switch off because the book does fall with you.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess being employed, there is, I know there's this idea, I think, that you're more stable, you get a more stable income.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: But also being in the recruitment market, I have to say that I've seen so many people in the four and a bit years since I've run my business that have been made redundant from several jobs within that time period.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you can say that that is necessarily the most stable way to go either.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you get a reliable paycheck maybe for a few months, but you don't know how long also your job um is safe as well.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is that that is like risks and you know rewards from both um from both areas.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I do get 100% there is, you know, ups and downs to both.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really important to assess that as well.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think what you mentioned is really key that nothing is is given, nothing is confirmed forever.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why it's important to see each each period of your your career is a chapter.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: And how and really work on a process that helps you evolve it with intention and think you constantly evaluate is this getting me to where I want to go next?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't necessarily need to be my forever role, but is this right for me now?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, will it will it work for me now?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, there are so many challenges with moving from self-employment or you know, self-working for yourself into an employed role.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think firstly, it's a client's often come to me with significant challenges with identity and you know, loss of identity, yeah, loss of confidence, because it's often seen as a you know, the sexy option, isn't it, to start your own business.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: As you said, this working from the beach, this freedom.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, whether the reality is that or not, if it if you're having to step away from that, it it often feels it can feel like a failure.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the first thing we do before we even start about start thinking about what's next is to reframe that.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's about designing what's next with intention and using all that expertise you've had from whatever it is you've worked with in, whatever it is you've created, it doesn't matter if it's succeeded or failed, you've learned so many transferable skills.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And using that to design as rocket fuel really to design your next phase.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's before we even get into circumventing the challenges that come from actually applying for roles, because the confidence piece has to be the foundation to everything else, the identity piece, the confidence piece that has to be your building blocks.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: You can't start scattergunning applications unless you have that very clear awareness of what it is you want next.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, who are you?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Start rebuilding that confidence.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and what one of the things we often do is we work on finding that connection between all your very diverse experiences because lots of founders have done you know, warning.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they've probably done everything.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they might have had a you know completely different uh a company that's in a completely different uh area to where they want to move into employment, and that can be it can feel like a real challenge, but there's always a red thread that connects the dots between you know diverse experiences.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we look at really finding that first, and that is often in itself a brilliant way of starting to build that confidence in terms of who am I, you know, what am I basing my expertise on?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's before we move into the other challenges that you know you can really face when you're applying for roles, one of which is you know the ATS systems, the companies often use the applicant tracking systems that will automatically filter out founders because they have this, you know, what looks like a gap on their CD in terms of employment, or it comes up with keywords that aren't necessarily favoured, like founder.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what does that mean to a recruiter?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And equally, I think you know, recruiters themselves have a challenge in interpreting what what founders, what what entrepreneurship really means.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's often, I think, subconsciously seen um as a bit of a flight risk, or you know, will this person be difficult to manage?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Will they be too headstrong in my organization?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Will they stay for the duration?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is this just an easy option for them?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's actually a piece of research, some empirical research that's done um uh by Smith's School of Business uh in Queen's University that talks about um the fact that founders are less likely to receive a first stage interview when they have it doesn't matter really if their business has succeeded or failed, but they're less likely to receive a first stage interview if they have founder or ex-founder on their CV.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or anywhere on their CV.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Within their experience.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: No, but is that anywhere?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just me most recent experience?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: It'd be interesting to know where if or if you were a founder of something like 10 years ago and maybe you'd been employed to see it.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: It would be interesting to know where where on the CV that was.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if the research had shown that, but that would be quite interesting.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: It would, but it was it was quite a surprising stat.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: It was 43% less likely.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And there was bias, um unsurprisingly, there's bias for female founders, against female founders, for male founders.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: So male founders are more likely to go into um a role at a more senior level than a female founder.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this there's this automatic bias or subconscious bias that um recruiters may hold.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because I wonder if it has to do with the um business types of businesses they've been doing, because I'm just wondering, I mean, this is me thinking out loud, but like maybe you know, the female founders may have run like a VA business before, which is, you know, mutt really heavily female, and then are going into trying to get back into an admin role.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then I wonder if that has had something to do with that as well.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there are preconceptions about that type of industry, you mean?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or just in terms of the types of roles they've been doing.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, for example, a VA that has been work, you know, maybe was an administrator before or a PA before, set up their own VA business, which is really heavily a female industry, and then are moving back into those admini um type roles in employment.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I wonder if that has skewed that figure as well.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think there is, yeah, the survey obviously the the piece of research wasn't um, it's never conclusive.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: It just gives an indication.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what it didn't really account for was um uh applicant confidence and how they were able to tell the story of what the experience has given them.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean that's a big piece of the puzzle.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably the most important piece of the puzzle, is how the founder articulates their value to the employer.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can they make it easy for the employer to read the value that they're bringing, all the transferable skills, whether it's um you know, it's uh being a self-starter, it's having that um it's the sales skills that come with it because as a founder you wear so many different hats.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how do you bring those out to your to the person who's doing the recruitment in a way that makes it really easy for them to understand how you're going to fit into their organization and be an asset?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's that, isn't it?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's that relevance as well to the role that you are as a recruiter.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I'm like looking for as well.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm looking for people, particularly in this market, that have done that before and it's that relevant experience.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, how so if you are saying that founder is a bit of a no-no on a CV, how do you then reframe that experience?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: What sort of job title should people be putting into their CV and what should the how should they be tailoring their CVs to the roles that they want to apply for?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's really important to lead with the expertise you want to be known for.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, if you've if you've been a founder, you've done everything in your business, yeah, you know, from you know, the admin to the marketing to the all sorts, but if you're going into potentially a marketing role, you want to lead with that.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that needs to be your your headline.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, marketing expert or you know, head of marketing, and you lead with the expertise that you want to be known for.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And before you even go there, you have to know what a lot of founders come and think, um, when I work with clients, they often think I have all this experience, I actually don't know where I need to go next.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So starting from there is is absolutely crucial.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in in one of my programs called Um Where Do I Start?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: We we literally start from the beginning.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's about understanding, you know, what's your what are your strengths, what lights you up, what are your values, but also what kind of day, what kind of um how do you want your your day or your your work life to really support you in the next phase.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and from there we look through your their past experience, we understand what was that red thread that they really enjoyed in founding their business.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: There'll be things they loved and things they didn't love and things they were great at, things they weren't so great at.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And where does that take them next?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's often a bit of you know piecing the joining the dots together, piecing that puzzle together to point them in the right direction of where to look before we even start to think about looking at the CV.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: But there is actually a lot of people want to understand how to reframe their experience in that interim period.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're not yet, you're not running the business that you're running before in the same way necessarily, and you're not quite sure exactly where you're pointing towards, but you want to have this identity that will carry you through this interim space.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's where it can be really important to start to think about what does your LinkedIn profile say about you?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is it outdated now?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Are you still doing what you did before?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you want to start tailoring that to a new audience?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be quite broad.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Your LinkedIn headline can be quite broad, but it can start to open you up to new possibilities.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: So and there's lots of work that needs doing on someone's public profile so that they can start to move themselves away from what they were doing before and position themselves for the next chapter.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Would you recommend some retraining as well?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's certainly if you're moving into something where maybe you did it before you've you run your business.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Often I find people want to move back into what they were doing before.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: That could be 10, 15 years before.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, I think keeping your skills really up to date and showing that you've um you've made some progress in that area can be really crucial in terms of highlighting that on your LinkedIn, on any kind of CV that you're going to share.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and that's absolutely key.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: What about like salary negotiations?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because often people have been working for themselves, maybe their C their salary's been sporadic or you know, the business has maybe made so much that they pay.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite hard to, I guess, know how to pitch yourself.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if I guess it's a little bit easier in employment, although I agree with this, but you know, if you've been on a salary, you sort of know maybe where you are at in that particular field and maybe how to pitch yourself.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: How do you decide where to pitch yourself in terms of role level and salary when you've been working for yourself?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a really interesting perception that I have with some of the clients I work with that they're going to have to start from scratch or take a much less, a much more junior position than perhaps they were in before, if they want to, for instance, re-enter a career that they were in previously.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just not the case at all because they've run this business in the interim, even if it's not in the same industry, that's given them a huge amount of leadership development.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: So take, for example, somebody who's left a career and started their own business in something completely different for the last 10 years.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: They've left at a certain level, but they've then gone and basically taken a crash course in leadership development.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no reason why they should be re-entering at a lower level necessarily.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it depends on the industry.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, if it's tech, so much development in tech, you know, you may have to take a step down.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I think trying to position your leadership skills or working to position your leadership skills as you know, a build on what you were doing before, where you were before, is so key.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you've got to really do some research, look at the market rates, those roles, and then in you know, ensure that you're considering your all the leadership skills you've the business skills you've learned in the interim as a bonus and not looking at it as time out of the industry.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's the perspective to to to come from.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's the the stepping off point that I would always approach it from.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: What about your network?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, it's always always hard, I think, to make cold applications.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Cold applications, you know, and you know, it's it's really hard to get your, I guess, your experience seen by the right people.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to people about networking?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think you've you've got to be absolutely out there with your network.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it can be really daunting because again, it comes with this loss of identity sometimes.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I've stepped away from what I was doing before.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Often, you know, you've been known for this business that you've been running for the last half many years.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's who you are, that's your identity.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: It can feel like, oh, I've got to talk to people and tell them that I'm now going back into the industry or going into this new direction.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so once you're once we've worked through that, once you've worked through that confidence piece and you've worked out your narrative, then you've 100% got to work your network because, yeah, as you mentioned before, if you're applying directly to organizations and you're just cold applying, you're likely to be filtered out because you haven't got that steady history in that particular area.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's much more likely you're going to find your next role through your contacts.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be the ones to come to you with the roles, but they might connect you with somebody who will.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I see that all the time with people I work with.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: That once we get through the initial horror, having to really go out there and and talk about themselves and and share what it is they're looking for, that's where they get their next role from.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: That somebody connects them with the right recruiter or somebody connects them with the right person in the organization who can really talk to them about what it is they want and help shape that next experience for them.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And equally, once we've once someone has established exactly what it is they they're looking for next, finding people in your network who are working in that area and can talk to you about how they find their roles and not just how they found the role, but also how they experience the role day to day can be really key in such a great way.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you're gonna do birds with one stone.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: You get an understanding for what that area is really like.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it might not be, you know, it's a great way of you know trying on that hat and working out is that really right for me, but it's also a brilliant way of creating that um that next connection because people love talking about what they do.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really great in if you're contacting someone in your network, you say, I'm I'm you know, this is what I've been doing.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Here's how my career is going to be evolving next, here's where I'd like to take it.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: I noticed you're in that particular area already.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love you know, 20 minutes of your time in order to understand your experiences as a role, um just so I can get a greater understanding of what it is you do and the area that you work within.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: People love to talk about themselves.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's very rare that somebody would say no.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that can be a great way to approach what can feel like quite an icky conversation.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: So is that how you would say suggest someone uh built that?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's you know, I want to say you need to build a network, and I think actually it's that practicality, isn't it, on how you build a network.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I think it's it's all like that.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it can be twofold.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: So reactivating old contacts is really crucial, going through people you used to work with, even if you haven't spoken to them in years, people are generally very happy to hear from you.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, explaining what it is you're looking for next.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: But the way you frame it is really key.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd say before anybody launches into that part of it, really taking the time to think about how that what their narrative is, you know, writing it down, connecting um, here's what I've been doing, here's where I am now, and here's what I where I want to go next and what I'm bringing.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Having that written down and practicing saying it out loud is fundamental for giving you the confidence that that it sounds natural and that you know you can step into these shoes.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because it can be really, really daunting.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: So doing that groundwork first, I would say, really before reaching out is quite key because you need to know what it is you're asking.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that could be that could be sometimes you know, you you reconnect with an old contact and then you have a nice chat, but you haven't really made that connection in the way that perhaps you were intending.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: So being quite intentional with what it is you're looking for from that conversation, not in terms of you know, it has to be a give and take, but uh being intentional with what you want to walk away from, whether it's a a warm a warmer contact that can be valid in itself, or whether it is you're looking whether it's you're looking for that person to connect you with somebody else, it could be helpful in your your job search and then and the evolution of your career.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And would you suggest using LinkedIn for that?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, 100%, yeah.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Your your existing LinkedIn network is where I would start.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Your phone book, your LinkedIn contacts, definitely, you know, reach out on LinkedIn with some warm messaging um and see if somebody's up for a 15-minute coffee chat.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: And as I say, it's unusual people aren't willing to give a bit of time if you've especially if you've worked with them.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but having that having that narrative is really key first so that someone understands what it is you you're at.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: What because they might be seeing you in your old career and thinking, well, why does this person in this different industry want to speak to me?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: So giving that kind of context first is key, I think, when you're looking to certainly re-establish a cold network.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: That can be really important.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And equally, if you're if you've run a business and you're looking to take those transferable skills, perhaps into a different industry, start to think about where your contacts can be helpful in terms of who might they know, what industries might they be connected with, who might they know that they can point you in the right direction of, who might be happy to have a conversation with you to give you an introduction to that area.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is probably actually where founders have a bit of an advantage because we know business owners, um, myself in UK, you have to be on LinkedIn.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: You have to promote your business.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of people that are in employment feel quite icky about LinkedIn and don't like it.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas founders have had to, you know, whether they like it or not, they've had to be on it, basically.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they've had to bite the bullet.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: They've had to bite the bullet and be on it.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and get over the promotional ick.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think where that can be challenging still if is if they were they were used to um promoting their business.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's all about them.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be quite a mental shift.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're not hiding behind the veneer of their business before, the brand that they were promoting, the brand that they lived and breathed.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's it can be quite a vulnerable feeling to that, oh, this is me without that that kind of um the brand that I could sort of hide behind a little bit.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a bit of both, I think.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on the business that you've had.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess if you've had a personal brand as part of your business, you may just find it slightly easier because you can rewrite this um into your story.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, actually, in a way, you know, there's a podcast, isn't there?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Hugely popular podcast, how to fail where people actually talk about their failures and not necessarily that you know, um letting go of a business is a failure, but you can definitely spin it.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so helpful to confront that experience and talk about the the real reasons I'm moving away from this business and what am I moving towards.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what is it I really want in my next period, the next chapter of my my career, and and use it as use it as fuel.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's all kind of all these all these informations, all these bits of information, data points that you can use to shape your next step.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: So and equally you've got to understand that there are so many more options today than ever before in terms of flexibility.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: So employment isn't necessarily your uh your only option.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: You could be looking at you know fractional roles where you can take your your expertise, your senior level expertise into working more flexibly with a bit more, maybe a bit more um awareness or guarantee of your income.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you could be looking at portfolio careers where you do a bit of you know lots of different things, or hybrid employments that lets you re-carry on your business on the side in some way, because often I get I get clients who think I've got to leave my business entirely.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the work we have to do first is to evaluate that decision and think, do you need to leave it completely, or do you need a hybrid option that allows you to carry it on some capacity?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that can be quite an interesting thing to explore.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it gives you less pressure.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: So on business.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you could definitely try and get a part-time job so you can carry on with your business or a side, you know, gig or something like that.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: There is I love that there is lots of different options, and I think what you said about chapters, and I think that is true whether you're in employment or not, you know, we work, we're working whether it's for ourselves or for someone else, for such a long period of time, and I guess that job for life is no longer long gone, yeah, long gone.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was in my glass career for 15 years at the same company, and that felt like, oh my goodness, this could be a job for life.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that really wasn't what I wanted.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think people people have much more awareness now about different roles, different ways of working being right for them at different points in their lives, specifically when you're raising a family.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we all know we're raising it often without the village that was once was once there.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we need often that flexibility that a senior job in an organization doesn't necessarily afford you.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Some do, which is fantastic, and some don't.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it is all about understanding what it is you need from the next chapter of your career and moving towards that with intention.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: It might not be perfect, but I think you've got to know where you're headed.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you've got to have a bit of a compass through the fog and understand what you're headed towards.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: That can be that's absolutely crucial before taking a step forward, I think.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you just end up scattergunning your energy into the into the air.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I often when people come to work with me, they they've been through that experience already and they are emotionally exhausted.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's taken so much energy and time to send off hundreds and hundreds of applications, and they're getting nothing.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Back.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you kind of got to go right back to the beginning, start with the foundations.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: What who do you work with people?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of like if so, what's what's like the program, I guess, that people go through with you?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: It looks different for every client.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do have a program called um a new program called Where Do I Start, which is four parts.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, if somebody's coming for um a specific career change program, that normally takes six sessions.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my last client got her dream role after four sessions, which was amazing.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, having come from you know a standing start thinking this is never gonna happen, how are we gonna get there?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: But um we essentially we start from the very beginning.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: We look at where are they now?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what have they learned from their experiences as a founder?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they changing their their track?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: What's what's the appeal of changing tack?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what are they building upon?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: What are their energizers?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: What really lights them up?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we start to connect that that thread between all their experiences.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they have a narrative.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: The narrative for me, I think, is always generally always the turning point where you start to see the light come back into someone's eyes, and I really can see the future ahead of me because they've got this um it's like it's it literally a paragraph of confidence.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like confidence.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's their elevator pitch sort of thing.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I really get them to practice it, and it can sometimes it feels really daff at the beginning, but they practice, practice, practice, so it becomes more natural that they're stepping into these new shoes.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we start to look at the practicalities.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll do you know a CV review, a LinkedIn review, understand where it's not telling the right story, because it is it's about it's really about making it easy for recruiters to understand how you're going to work in their organization, how you're going to fit in, how will you be an asset?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we also start, we do often we do a bit of blue sky thinking because sometimes women come and think this is where I want to go next.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they you know often really value having the blinkers taken off and thinking, well, where are my skills?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you need somebody else to point those out to you.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you've been in this organization, you've done everything and worn all the hats in your business, but you've got a ton of skills, you know.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: What what is it in that in that um portfolio of skill set that you love to do?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: So having that that conversation is really, really important, whether it's with um, you know, a coach or a mentor or you know, a supportive third party, but talking that through is so valuable for someone to uncover the sort of layers of what's underneath.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and only then really do we talk about what organizations would suit them.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't necessarily mean what specific organizations it means, what size of organization um, you know, is it a startup?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is it something a little bit bigger?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because those organizations often really understand the value that an ex-founder will bring.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you want to go somewhere where your founder skills are seen and understood, and that isn't always a big corporate.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um you you want, you know, if in a smaller organization, they can see that you'll bring that drive, that understanding of what it takes to build a business, that uh the sales skills that you've built, the um, you know, the juggling, the the balancing of of any of many, many different roles at once, and the ability to project manage from start to finish is also super, super transferable.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got a ton of skills that you can really build upon um that are so valuable to smaller organizations specifically, because often in smaller organizations they need you to do a broader range of work.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you need to be really flexible, don't you?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you're in a small organ, I mean I'm just thinking about the people at work for me, like they have to be quite flexible because you know, people don't have small roles in small businesses.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: You've you've got to be able to wear lots of hats often, you've got to be agile.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: And these are things that you can really pull out of your founder story.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you're actually in an interview with somebody, making sure that you're not making it all about your founder story is really crucial because it's so easy to harp back to, well, I used to do this, and this is what I did, this is what I did, and this is how I how I developed my business.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: But thinking rather about how that's valuable to the new organization is so much more important.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: So making it key, like how can you transfer what you did into what they need and making it super easy for them to join those dots?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, Kate, how can people find you, connect with you, and potentially work with you moving forward?
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, lovely.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: So uh people can find me on my website at katerainford.com or on LinkedIn at Kate RainfordFolks.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm also on Instagram at Kate Rainford Coaching.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you can drop me an email as well at kate at katerainford.com.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've got a number of different programs that people can join.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a group program called uh Where Do I Start, which is exactly for this um this problem.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's for women who are at a transition point in their careers and and don't know where to start.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we work through right from the very beginning, all the way through to reviewing the CV, reviewing the LinkedIn profile, making sure that's ready to rock and roll.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a small group program.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's designed to be more accessible, you know, it's not a super high cost.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: All one-to-one coaching, um, I do regularly as well with clients in this position, where we work really deep, deep work, um, uncovering new identity, um, understanding exactly where you want to go next and why, and ensuring that all the layers are in place before you start that direction, that job hunt.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you'd be in the best possible position.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that also includes things like um interview coaching as well.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Lovely.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much, Kate, for joining me today.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think this was such a brilliant topic, and I hope that it's helped um some people listening.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so, so much.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Liz.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willet and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep on chasing your big streams.