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Begin With We · Humanity Working

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: So there are really two chapters of my leadership journey.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: The first is the bang bang the fist on the desk guide.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the second chapter is I am the most uh unimportant person in the room, enabling others' success, which, by the way, only drove more success for me.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Today I'm joined by the author, speaker, and leadership coach Kyle McDowell.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Kyle's book, Begin with We, Ten Principles for Building and Sustaining a Culture of Excellence, is a Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestseller.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Humanity Working, Kyle.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, Paul, man, it's really great to be here.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know we've talked about having this uh this discussion for quite some time, so I'm really excited to get going on it.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Likewise.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I want to start with something that we've actually been discussing for a while now on this podcast, which is the fact that most of our leaders, whether it's inside a company or even more broadly in society, are getting kind of a failing grade from those that they lead.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in broad strokes, why do you think that is?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've had a lot of change, right?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Across uh essentially every industry, um, societal changes.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the workforce has the workforce has undergone um probably a more radical transformation over the course of the last handful of years, um exponentially more so than probably the previous several decades combined.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that's driven by the pandemic, a lot of that's driven by gig economy.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of things in there that are that are just different.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: But the outcome of all of that, in my mind, is the workforce has more choices than ever.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are more opportunities with their proliferation at work at home being what it is.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, no longer are employees or the workforce at large in a position where they have to essentially just accept whatever the boss or whatever the company throws at them.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: So while for decades, if not even a century or more, um the company was all the organization was always in a position to set, here's how things are.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: You can take it or leave it.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome to join us.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: If not, fine, somebody will be right behind you to replace you.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not quite the same case any longer.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then if you if you combine that with this generational or um kind of profile thing that we're seeing across every industry as well, as baby boomers age out of leadership positions, but they're still, you know, quite present in so many organizations and um younger generations age into the workforce.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's this intersection of styles that is, in some cases, uh like a train wreck, because the way I've led in the past and have had a lot of success with the way I've led in the past is not necessarily the way that's going to get it done in today's workforce with today's profile.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a combination of things that, you know, the the macro changes that we're seeing across the board, as well as the generational and profile um, I would say, differences um have put leadership in a spotlight that it's never been in before.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um couple of things I'd add to that.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: We what we see is a lot of ambiguity in the workplace and a lot of ambiguity as to what even work is.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if you were um, let's say you were in the workforce 50 years ago, for example, chances are your job was very, very clearly defined.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um it was doing X number of things in X period of time.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if you did X number of things in X period of time, you were successful.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So leading in that environment is also relatively straightforward.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Do your people do that?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do they not do that?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: You communicate with those swing models to what they're supposed to be doing in very clear ways, and people it's very clear for people to understand.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: But everything's so uh unstructured and ambiguous now that um it is sometimes difficult to communicate very clearly to people what is expected of them, and that can create a mismatch between the people that are in theory doing the leading and the people that are being led.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you couple that with this to your point, with those almost like societal less lower levels of trust in the people that are supposed to lead this to lead us, those things kind of like come together into something that is quite a quite a different world and uh and a world in which it's challenging, I suppose, to be a leader right now, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, Paul, you you touched on something there, man, that I I really want to react to.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I I could not agree more with one caveat in that most organizations, I think, do a really fine job teaching the employee how to do the nuts and bolts, the blocking and tackling, the X's and O's, whatever, whatever you, however you want to describe it, right?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: They are, I think we do, by and large, in most organizations, do a pretty good job with the standard operating procedures.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: But where we're lacking is a similar approach to setting expectations for behavior and how we expect our teams to operate or people within the team to operate and treat one another, treat those that we serve externally.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, so I think it's easy to manage, but more difficult to lead than ever.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So easy.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: You you call out in your book like the difference between a boss and a leader, right?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: For example.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it is calling understanding the difference between those two things is is really important.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love what you said there about behaviors, and we'll get into some of that in a bit more uh in a bit more detail.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: But before we do, I'd love to know when you started to think about leadership as a skill that could be honed.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and specifically, I'd love to know what you were like as a leader before you you started actively developing your own skills.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I um I think I've always been a student of leadership dating back to probably my adolescence.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I always always played sports and found myself in positions where um other kids, you know, at a very young age, six, seven, eight years old, were looking to me for guidance or direction uh out on the football field.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: So to me, that kind of it it was always something that I was curious about, you know, how to get somebody to do something that they may not want to do.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then if they do want to do it, how do I get them to do something even, you know, deliver excellence in the thing that it is that they that they do.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I've always been kind of a student of leadership.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the second part of your question is a little bit tougher of an answer.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: So um I spent nearly 30 years in corporate America leading really massive organizations.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, for some context, my last two roles combined, I led north of 30,000 employees.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: I had um, you know, I was responsible for profit and losses in the in the billions at organizations that are you know marquee names in the in the United States and in some cases abroad.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the first, I'll tell you this, man, the first 20 years or so of that journey, I was the um loud, blustery, bang my fist on a desk.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: You got to do it because I said so, type leader.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I always delivered great results.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, turns out that can be a pretty effective approach to leading um in stints.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not something that's sustainable over a long period of time.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was probably around year 21, maybe year 22, where um my health was not good.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my personal life was in disarray.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was um staring at a divorce.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um I just that's when I started to question what I was doing.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'd lost the desire to make an impact that I once had.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: I lost the passion for the work and the people that I was leading.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, all the cliches that you hear about burnout, and and um I was I was a victim to all of those.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I told myself, at one point I did have this conversation with myself that, okay, Kyle, if you want to have um, if you want to see different results, you're gonna have to do something different, right?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's the definition of insanity.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm gonna keep doing the same thing, of course I'm gonna get the same results.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um I stepped away from the corporate world really without a plan.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that I needed to do something different.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that I was, this was a recipe for um, as I said, burnout.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I had one of those be careful what you wish for moments, because when I stepped away, I was in a very fortunate position.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna take a little time off to kind of gather myself and see where I wanted to go next.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: I just left probably one of the most toxic environments of which I've ever been a part of, a massive health insurance company.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um and my my promise to myself was if I were to go back into the corporate world, it would be um under the under the guise that I would be able to lead in a way that I've never led.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to try something different and I wanted to invest my energy into those around me instead of myself.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because the first 20 years was all about me.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: How do I get the next title, the next raise, the cool corner office?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how do I get this followship?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's what left me so disenfranchised.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was totally apathetic.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um I was given this opportunity to join an organization that would ask me to lead about 15,000 people and some really purpose-driven work.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I accepted the role because I'd gotten the impression that while there was an opportunity for a cultural reset and even a transformation in some ways, my boss um was essentially pretty hands-off.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, man, this is this is your show.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can run it how you like.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a be careful what you wish for happened.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: The night before I was going to meet with the top 40 or 50 leaders of this new organization, and I had to prepare some words.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: I needed to give a little speech the next morning.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: And um, that's when, that's when um the principles that are outlined in my book, the 10 Wee's, that's when they came to life.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Was that evening in Lawrence, Kansas, before meeting with those 40 or 50 people?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea it would lead to the next couple of years of best-selling book and you know, meeting fellows like you.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: But that was that was um, so there are really two chapters of my leadership journey.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: The first is the bang, bang the fist on the desk guy.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the second chapter is I am the most uh unimportant person in the room, enabling others' success, which, by the way, only drove more success for me.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would actually encourage folks to listen to this episode, and you haven't listened to a couple of our uh previous episodes, I would actually go do it.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: So um we spoke uh to Alessandria uh Politzi in a couple of episodes.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in the most recent one, uh, which we called How Not to Suck as a Leader.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh she uh we we talk in some some depth around some of these concepts.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other one I'd encourage people to listen to as well is um is One Drop of Poison, uh the One Drop of Poison episode with Sean Lemson.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So both of those uh will kind of like act as companion pieces, as it were, to um to what we're talking about here.
• 11:03
  unknown: Okay.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um but let's get into the detail, uh Kyle, about um the 10 Wii's themselves.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned that you're in Lawrence, Kansas, and you've and uh and I'm sure that behind the scenes your brain had been worrying for some time uh around these, but the the Wii's themselves came pr came pretty quick once you'd landed on the concept, right?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, essentially man, I was um I was in a hotel room the night before, not very nice hotel room, I should add.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um some of my best work has happened in crappy hotel rooms.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it turns out, yeah.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: I wish that I wish the story were better.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's this muse on my shoulder, the beach is crashing.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like that.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was in a, I think I'd lit it might have even been a Motel 6.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was literally not a not a super great spot, but um, whatever.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I knew I had to come with something different, and um it took me about two hours.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I had my laptop in my lap and put this presentation together.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And after a couple of hours, I'm looking at 10 sentences, each beginning with the word we.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not incredibly creative, so and I have the 10 we's.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, if I were to tell you that I that there's a a 1% chance I would be talking about them seven years later, I I would have been lying.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you would have told me that, I would say you're crazy.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: But what happened after the introduction of these principles um was really nothing short of profound, Paul.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: The business results reached um um heights never before seen and almost every measurable.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: But what to me, what's more important and and what I take away from that experience is what I watched happen transforming bosses into leaders, watching people really connect on a human level and look at each other and each look at each other and have a newfound sense of concern and care for each other's journey as humans, like enabling others to be their best, which is something I'd not seen in the corporate world before.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's any commentary on the whole experience, I'll share this uh because I do think it does kind of set the standards at a table, anyways.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I haven't worked at that organization since 2019, and there are a handful of people from that, from that crew, that team, that I still have regularly scheduled one-on-ones with.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we haven't worked together in a number of years.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So the connections that we made, the results that we delivered all were so fulfilling and reignited us with a passion that so many of us had lost that it continues to serve us in ways that none of us expected.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's one of the things that strikes me about the book is that um you are really it's in a sense, it's serving two purposes, right?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's a template for leaders, but it's also a template for an organizational culture.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd love to know how you think those two things are connected, how leaders behave and what the culture is.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the co I think culture is an output is an output.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a product.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the culture is going to be as high functioning and and strive for excellence as is the team in those same aspects.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if we have a high-functioning team, one that looks out for one another, um, keeps it, keeps its commitments to one another, recognizes the importance of doing the right thing and looking out for us on the macro.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: See, when I joined this organization, what what struck me so early on was so many leaders were really proud of the individual results that their functions were delivering.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: But many times the macro view of our performance was not great.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: So while in pockets we had people that were high performing, the overall team was not winning.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And they didn't see it that way.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: They're my area is performing just fine, Kyle.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't I don't think I need to be a part of this, which is no team at all.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So so what I had found, at least kind of up until that point was if we can be high functioning behind the scenes, we'll clearly deliver a great product or service for those that we that we serve, our customers.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but when you take on an organization as large as this one, you it's you can have what I would call microcultures.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we have uh the way this functional unit inside the team operates, but it's very different than this group over here, and they have different standards, different expectations, um, just wildly different in terms of their the overall kind of energy inside of those, those, those functional areas.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that's Paul, it's a long-winded way of saying, you know, I don't think we set out to build a culture.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: We don't set out to create a culture, although some do and they view it as an initiative, and I think that's foolhardy.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: What we've got to do, and what I did in that case and subsequent to that, to the creation of the 10 Whees is work to create connections that establish trust in and among the team, which can only drive better results, which can only provide a level of fulfillment that is not there without that uh type of connection, and really investing our energy into one another, uh, more so than ourselves.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because the wild thing that so many of us miss, and I know I missed it for the first probably 20-ish years of my career, someone doesn't have to lose for someone else to win.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: In a team environment, many of us can win.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if I invest in your winning, it's logical and natural, you're gonna invest in mine.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: But it takes one person, sometimes more than one person, to start that transition.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I always say driving a cultural transformation, transformation is like sailing a giant battleship.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're incredibly accurate.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can do a lot of great things and some not so great things, but they take time.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: They take a lot of navigation and a lot of coordination among many people, not just one person, many people to make that thing go in the direction we need it to go and stay in that direction and land where we want it to land.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think driving a big transformation inside of a culture, uh inside of an organization is no different.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be honest, I find this this whole area fascinating because you mentioned sports at the start of uh at the start of the episode.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um, we draw a lot of our learnings as well from uh from sports and specifically from team sports.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you look at the number of people, let's just say in the United States, that actively follow team sports, that's a lot, that's that's tens of probably probably over a hundred million people actively follow team sports in in some way, shape, or form.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so obvious if you follow team sports that um there is a difference between individual success and team success.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, teams that are focused too much on individual success are typically lousy teams, and we all know that, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not uh we know that and we live that every day.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: If we you know watch any commentary about our team, it'll be about that that dynamic.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we seem to like understand that and understand the innate logic uh behind that, and then park it somewhere and then go to work and behave in a in an entirely different way.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any thought as to what as as as to why we do that?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because it should be so obvious that when the team wins, the people in the team win more effectively and more consistently than if they just behave as a bunch of individuals.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Why and but I know this.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I it it's I think it's even I think it's worse than that.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you're you're absolutely correct.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: We we we know it, we see it, it's so simple.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: But in addition to using kind of sports as the metaphor for the workplace, I think it's bigger than that.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think we we we wreck outside of the workplace, we have a level of humanity and apathy, not apathy, I would say a level of humanity and yeah, we'll go with empathy, actually, that uh we lose when we step into the workplace.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Not every organization falls prey to this.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I and I I wrestle with the why, but I'll I start with something very fundamental, and so it's so simple to me.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Paul, you realize we have different vocabularies.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: We we don't even speak the same once we step into the workplace.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: When's the last when's the last time you went home after a tough day?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And to your significant other, did you say, Hey, how'd you do on those deliverables we discussed last night?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't happen.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: You don't circle back to somebody, you don't, you don't put a question in the parking lot.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's a completely so so when we filter our words, clearly our thoughts and emotions are also going to be filtered.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that that to me is, and I think social, by the way, I think social media plays a role in this.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I just think the evolution of mankind is playing a role in this.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: But for whatever reason, it's gotten so much worse over the last handful of years.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: The level of uh, not the level of the change that happens in people's uh behavior from the moment they step into the workplace to the moment they step out, to me is is so wild.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's where um you and I were chatting before we got going.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: That the the way I wrote the book, man, I was intentional to make it an easy read.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was intentional to make it conversational and someone, something that is that can be related to, regardless of your level of an organization, your seniority, your tenure, those things.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because at the end of the day, you're a human, and I'm a human.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: But what what we we tend to lose that humanity inside the workplace, and it just drives me crazy.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: So back to your original question, we see it in sports, but we also see it in our friendships and how we how we view all of our relationships.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: We throw that out the window in many cases when we step in.
• 20:42
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• 20:44
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• 20:48
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• 20:51
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• 20:52
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• 21:00
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• 21:02
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• 21:06
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• 21:14
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• 21:19
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• 21:23
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• 21:32
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• 21:41
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• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: As a humanity working listener, you can get free access to our guide on how to build a culture of learning in your organization.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: It explains what works and what doesn't Doesn't work based on years of research and how people actually develop in organizations.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: You can download it today at billionminds.com slash humanity working.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: So not really an ad so much as a gift to you.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: All right, we're 20, 25 minutes in and we haven't even said what these ten wees are.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: So let's okay.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but um why don't you uh why don't you spend just a couple of minutes very briefly outlining what the what the 10 are.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'd be happy to.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I um I can't help myself.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: I give the same caveat every time I I do this quick run through.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: As I walk through them, I Paul, I can almost hear your audience.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: I can almost hear them saying, Well, of course.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's nothing new here.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: There is nothing new here.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: These principles are incredibly simple, but simple does not mean easy.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Two very different things.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so with without further ado, the 10 weeks, these are the principles that I've used to drive massive change inside of organizations, and it's what I continue to do in my business now.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the first was obvious to me, it had to be number one, and that's we do the right thing, always.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And sure, so fundamental.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: No one's gonna disagree with that, but I would challenge you to show me an organization who is overt and conspicuous about us doing the right thing every single day, always.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: We can argue about what the right thing is and we can disagree on it, but we will endeavor to always do the right thing.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And in the book, I walk the reader through a kind of a lens of or different lenses on how to get there if you're struggling with a decision.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: But if but as a leader and as a human, if if I'm gonna do the right thing, to me, the very best way to do that is we number two.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: We lead by example.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we're already setting an example every single day.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the question.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: The question is, are we leading by an example that we'd be proud to see replicated?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: If it were blast all over the company newsletter or the internet, or you know, my filter is if my mother were seeing me behave this way, my mother's been gone for over a dozen years, but in my mind, she's the filters.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Am I leading by an example that I'd be proud of?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when we when we endeavor to lead by example, and especially in the corporate world, the to me, the number one way to set the example that you would like to see replicated is make good on your promises.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we number three is we say what we're going to do and then we do it.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that simple.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: When we when we make that statement or commitment to deliver something, not just for our clients, but for our peers and for our boss and for those that we lead, we will do it.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's if there's a reason it's not going to happen, we get in front of it.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's no there's no excuses.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: So now, once I say I'm gonna do something, I got to do what?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: I got to take action.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we number four is we take action.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's a sub-component to there is taking action and making a mistake is okay, but being idle is not.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Every organization is riddled with issues that many people are aware of.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody stares at them every day, but they don't take the take a time, take the time to say, I've I'm gonna address this, because there's really very little reward or incentive for people to do that.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: They want to raise their hand to take on more work because it's rarely met with, hey, thank you.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And here's some compensation for that.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's usually met with, okay, now that you've brought that to light, go ahead and take care of that for us.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if you screw it up, you'll hear from me.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which is why I felt like the next we was really important.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's we number uh five, and that's we own our mistakes.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we we just can't have an organization or members of the team that are comfortable hiding things.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it is a cliche, but it's true.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Mistake really is a gift.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: When we realize something has not gone well, that's our opportunity to modify a process or do something differently to have a better outcome.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: But we wouldn't have known about that if we didn't try first, make the mistake first, head down the wrong path, whatever the right cliche is for you.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: But the point is we've got to recognize our mistakes, and we can't recognize them if people are hiding them.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got to be up front and own them.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when someone owns their mistake, we number six is right there behind them, and that's we pick each other up.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: So if I want people to take action, I got to be prepared for mistakes.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: And when those mistakes happen, in our culture, what I call a culture of excellence, we're gonna extend a hand.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna help somebody, we're gonna pick them up, we're gonna get them back on track.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a second obligation, I think, for all leaders, and that is we've got to propel members of our team to new heights.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about picking them up when they stumble.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: When someone is ready to take on a new role, even if it's off your team, if it's outside of your organization, I think it's the leader, the leader's obligation, or better yet, the obligation of a human is to help someone on their journey.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the goodwill that, by the way, the goodwill you create when you say to somebody, wait, you're interested in taking a role outside of our company, and you say, Let me help you with your resume, let me help you with the mock interviews, the goodwill you create and the loyalty that comes in return is is exponential than as if you had to just kind of turn your cheek to them, which I think happens more often than not.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we're through the first six of the Wii's, and the last four are a little tougher for some folks.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm clear to point this out because this is where I get a little disagreement at times, but it's also the most impactful, I think, of the next, are the next two or three.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: And number seven is uh we measure ourselves by outcomes, not activity.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, used to drive me crazy, and I've come to terms with it, so maybe not as much as it used to, and that is just this obsession with a packed calendar and how it equates value.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we I I see it, I see all the time on stage.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'll ask a question who here was double booked at least once yesterday?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, the whole room, everybody raises their hand the whole, and then I ask a question about okay, who in here was triple booked and still hands stay up?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And people wear their calendar like a badge of honor.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Our clients, our customers, they don't pay for that.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: They pay for outcomes.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: So while you may feel like you're adding value, but it if you can't draw a straight line from any one of the activities in which you are engaged every single day to an outcome that you have been assigned or something that you've you're working on and it's it's kind of conspicuously something that's sitting out there.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you can't draw that straight line, you should scrutinize.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we doing this?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why is this activity something that I must engage in every day?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: More often than not, it's not a requirement and it's not necessary.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: You stop going to that meeting and the world doesn't implode.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: You stop attending this session or whatever the the outcome that you're expecting to see doesn't happen.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to measure ourselves by outcomes because that's how the world judges us, not by how busy we are.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: My favorite of all the 10 Wii's is also probably the toughest for people to really get behind, and that's we number eight, is we challenge each other.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in at least in my first 20-ish years of my career, and I think it's pretty safe to say in most organizations, challenges are reserved for the boss.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Challenges go one direction from leader to team or boss to team.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: But rarely is there a commitment and even an obligation that members of the team are going to challenge the boss.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Peers are going to challenge peers.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Every single direction you can imagine, peer uh challenges must exist.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because without those challenges, mediocrity will ensue.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: We'll go back to a sports metaphor.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's my favorite of uh for this one is you know, an NFL football team has 53 men on the active roster and only one head coach.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's a reason there is an offensive coordinator, there's an offensive line coach, there's a specialty coach.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many coaches underneath that head coach because no way possible can one person bring the best out of 53 other people.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: We need help.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And those help come in the form of challenges from different directions, different people.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's really important.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: But we number eight without we number nine is a recipe for chaos.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we number nine is we embrace challenge.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's a market force or a challenge from the ivory tower of the organization, you know, leadership or management has put something in in front of us that we've got to tackle.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, challenges come on the home front.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Wherever they they originate is kind of irrelevant.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: The point is we want our team to be ready to embrace these challenges.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to be comfortable with them.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna look them in the eye and be galvanized by them.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're not gonna be fearful of them.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And what's most important for this one, I think, is the leader to acknowledge, hey, yeah, I'm concerned, man.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is a problem.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've got this competitive threat that we're not used to and it's affecting our bottom line.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know the answer of the way out of this, but we're gonna embrace this and we're gonna be better for it.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Everything in life, as you know, Paul, is is the anything worth having, I should say, is almost always the result of overcoming one or more challenges.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: When we make it to weed number 10, it's kind of the icing on the cake or the bow on the present.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's I was purposeful to leave it as number 10 because any earlier in the in the in the in the 10 weeds, I think is a recipe for disappointment.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's we obsess over details.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And today, especially in today's world, in nearly every industry, the details are what separates us from those, from our competitors.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's what separates our brand from the competition.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's what separates me from you, my level of obsession with the details, you know, your level of obsession with other details.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's what why we're complimentary, I think, in many ways in a team environment.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: But we cannot be comfortable with sloppy work.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: I used, I picked up a nickname of the Shredder at one point in my career because my team would bring presentations or PowerPoints that needed to be uh either taken to the CEO or maybe the board or whatever.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I would chew them up because I'd see different fonts.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I would see different alignment and margins from one page to the next.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: It drove them crazy.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: But the better we are behind the scenes in the work product that we deliver to one another, it stands to reason the work product we deliver externally can only benefit.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to be tight with the details if we want to be excellent.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's hopefully what we're in business to be is excellent.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's the 10 we's.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's intriguing that it is 10, right?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: We live in a world of threes, right?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is these three things and you know, et cetera, and of course top 10 lists as well.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: But but the what this strikes me as, and I think it gets to this point about it not just being a blueprint for leadership, but almost like a blueprint for how a company can operate, is that the existence of these 10 allows you to be able to, if you like, define the how of work in a more uh in a more meaningful way, right?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: How we approach how we approach our work in a more meaningful way.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I'd be curious, just before we we're gonna go into one of these in a little bit more detail, but just before we do, in situations where companies have been living with this and breathing with it for some time, how do you see companies adopt them, measure themselves against them, and what kind of changes do you see as a result?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I in my business today, I we take a few approaches to helping uh organizations kind of embed these these principles.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it starts with it can be as simple as just a keynote and then they run with it.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um we also sell as a workbook that allows leaders to walk um themselves through the book at their own pace, uh, also with members of their team.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, though, I can't force somebody to live this, right?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's the old adage, you can take the horse to water, but you can't make them drink.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's this is no different.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that frankly I struggle with um because I get approached from prospects or uh sometimes potential clients, that it's obvious to me they want to check a box.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: They want to start this cultural transformation because maybe they're a fan of the book or they know it's in vogue or they just think that they need something different, but it's not genuine, it's not authentic.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: And this is not a light switch.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I would be lying if I told you every organization I work with uh has hit a home run and they are a different place to be.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's not true.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, those that make the commitment to live the principles every single day, almost every single interaction, evangelize them as wide and as loud as they can across the entire organization.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: But most importantly, they talk the talk, but also walk the walk.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: They live this stuff every single day.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the ones that have a lot higher adoption.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they see that in the form of uh reduced employee attrition.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: They see that in improved employee engagement scores.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and something really tough to quantify is just the energy inside the organization, inside the team.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can feel it, man.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can feel it when it starts to shift from a little bit dysfunctional.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it starts at toxic, goes to a little bit dysfunctional, and then all the way to high functioning.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: People start to end each other's sentences.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Things that were kind of monotonous tasks like boring staff meetings become more like interactions.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: They move from readouts to actual conversations.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: People lose this need to speak like the most intelligent person in the room because they're less, they they care less about sounding smart and care more about getting to the bottom line of a better outcome and different results.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been a blast to watch.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at the end of the day, I'm the facilitator kind of helping, but I can't make them drive the change without without some serious um commitment from from leaders alike inside the organization.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you made a um the point earlier on about how to a certain extent these are well duh, or at least a uh at least a bunch of them are, but that that is kind of the point.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: That was what I was very much uh struck by as well.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was also struck by the fact that each one of these 10 Wii's could in many ways could be a book in its own right.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you've started an 11 11 book book series.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was and I thought maybe we could illustrate that a little bit by delving into one of them um in a bit more detail.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the one I'd I'd love to to delve into is I think your third Wii.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: We say what we're gonna do and then do it.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'd love to I'd love to explain why I wanted to why I wanted to pick this one.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think I I think in today's world, it is something that almost all of us, almost everybody in society even, struggles to live up to.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was thinking before we came on here about uh an example of this in my own life.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we had a uh we had a guest on this podcast, I won't name her, um, but it was a terrific discussion.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: And afterwards she expressed a ton of interest in partnering more deeply with my organization on a bunch of stuff, and and I agreed and I was really excited as well.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: And well, bottom line is um we get a lot of guests on this podcast, and for some reason, this episode just kept slipping, right?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it would slip a week here and then a week there, and then before you knew where you were, it had slipped, I think, over six months.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And six months later, we finally released the podcast, and I'm really excited, and I send her a note um uh sort of explaining how happy I was with the with the pod, a little apology there for you know how long it had taken, and reminding her about the discussion um about partnership.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, pretty unsurprisingly, she kind of let me have it with both barrels.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh boy, so why would she even consider associating with somebody who was so terrible at follow-through?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and it was really a wake-up call for me.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I it's funny, you talk to anybody and they'll have examples of how other people have let them down or companies have let them down.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: You have a great example of a um in in the book of your your kitchen and how the company kind of let you let you down.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: We all have those examples.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think that we all kind we also kind of do it.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that's the that is the challenge.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: So before we get into any more detail in it, I wonder if you could just explain in a little bit more detail why why you think follow-through is just so important.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, listen, it is um quick caveat though.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, everyone, these principles, the ten wees, they were created to to be exactly what I said that morning in Lawrence, Kansas, when I when I kind of introduced them, they govern how we treat one another first.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then they govern how we approach and treat those we serve, our customers.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I think that first portion is missed a lot in a lot of organizations, right?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: We we work like hell to satisfy our customers.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, clearly, no one's gonna say, don't make your commitments to the customer, right?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: That that is just right, or prospect.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: But that same level of expectation must be established behind the curtain.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: We can't we can't expect to deliver excellence externally and then do things half-assed behind the scenes.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: If we're if we want to establish ourselves as a brand that can be relied upon, we hold our commitments, our follow-up and follow-through is second to none.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's got to be that way behind the scenes.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: And throughout my journey through corporate America, one of the most frustrating aspects that I struggle with time and time again was this kind of absenteeism ownership of things.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll give you an example.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, Paul, you and I are in a staff meeting and um and I need and I need some numbers, right?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just pretend I need a, I need, I need some, I need some finance numbers from the previous month.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're our finance guy in this scenario.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, hey, Paul, for our next meeting, can you bring me the quarterly quarterly results for whatever, insert something there?
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you got got it, Kyle, no problem.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Come to the next meeting, and I'm like, hey, Paul, what are those numbers?
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you say, I don't have them.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: I asked Lisa, a member of my team, to gather those.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: She's been out, so I haven't had a chance to get those back for you.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Stop right there.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: You made a commitment, Paul.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: You agreed to do this, and we challenge each other, right?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna be difficult with you at the moment.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I am challenging you to hold up to your end of the bargain.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: You committed to this.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now that you haven't delivered for me, wherever I was taking this data or what I needed it for whatever I needed it for, that that that is all, it's it's all shot now.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: So your inability to hold your commitment has this ripple effect through through the rest of our team, perhaps, perhaps the organization, and perhaps all the way that a client could feel it.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: So this, I scheduled a meeting, not an outcome.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: This uh I asked so and so for that, not an outcome.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: We it it is it is, for lack of a better way of saying it, our level of follow-up and follow-through is a direct indication of how much we obsess and care about those that we serve externally.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: And almost as important, perhaps more important actually, is it is a reflection of our brand, not the company brand, not the logo you see on the building.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about Paul's brand.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: How does Paul want to be seen as a leader in this organization or a contributor in this organization?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: It is your personal brand.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you appeal to someone on that level, like, okay, are you are you comfortable being the guy that never follows through in his commitments?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you are, I'm not gonna be critical of you.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna ask you to go work somewhere else.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because on this team, we make commitments and we keep those commitments.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the only time that we don't keep those commitments is if something has unforeseen has taken place and we're way ahead of the due date.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no surprises when we get into that meeting and I say, hey, Paul, where's the data?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: That that's the genesis of why this one was created.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: And there's another point that you make uh in the book, which I think is really interesting, which is that if you're on a team, uh the manager or the leader of the team, um they their uh accountability for uh for following through, it's I would say it's there, but it's there in a different way, right?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so what's interesting is that inside the team, clearly, if you ask a direct if you're asking an employee to do stuff and they repeatedly don't do stuff, then there's a consequence, an obvious consequence, right?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Minimum is gonna be a bad performance review, and ultimately it might be that they end up getting fired.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: But the flip of that isn't there on a day-to-day basis in the same way, but what it contributes is something that you refer to as the leadership gap.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: So talk about that a little bit.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: I f Paul, first of all, man, you you clearly have spent some time with the book, and I I genuinely I appreciate that.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: I really, I really do.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it means a lot to me.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you nailed it, you you you absolutely nailed it.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's this there's this phenomenon um that, hey, Paul, I asked you for this data, you don't have it.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, we're gonna have a tough conversation.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps you get fired or, you know, anywhere in between, right?
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, same scenario, uh, previous staff meeting, you came to me and said, you know, Kyle, I feel like I could really lay raise the the level of of excellence in in my Excel skills uh for these reports that you ask for all the time.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you could, if you wouldn't mind investing and you know, spending a few bucks to get me in this training.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: I found the training.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's gonna make me so much better.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I say, okay, Paul, send me the information, I'll look it over and we'll get that approved for you.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one week goes by, two weeks go by.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: And at this point, most people, and it's unfortunate it shouldn't be this way, but it is true, they're not gonna call their boss out.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna be like, Kyle, dude, you you told me to send you this stuff three weeks ago, and I need this, right?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: You you you made a commitment to look, nobody's gonna do that.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or rarely does anybody do that unless you announce your principles, and one of them is we challenge each other at all you, you know, all directions.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the leadership gap is just that.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's like what's good for me as the leader uh is very different than what is acceptable for you.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: When you make a commitment, you don't keep it, I can fire you.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: When you make when I make a commitment and you don't keep it, you just kind of got to sit on it.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think that's garbage leadership.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: It creates this disconnect that uh there's no way trust can be can be established if I've made commitments that I'm not keeping to you.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it just creates this double standard.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: And nobody wants to work for a for someone that uh that that that that lives in and perpetuates a double standard.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely right.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely right.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think one of the other one of the other reasons I I wanted to go into this one and one of the reasons why I think it's so important uh important as well is that I think it's also a lot harder than it used to be.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Follow through is harder than it used to be.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've done some research on this ourselves, and in part it's because of something we've already discussed, right?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Work is more ambiguous than it used to be.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's almost always more work to do than time to do it.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and also there are actually so many places to store follow-up.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's also a lot easier to say yes to people than say no to people.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, all of these things are are things that lead us to store up a whole bunch of commitments that we've made to other people.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: And in many cases, we make those commitments and potentially even forget that we've made those commitments moment moments later, right?
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so and yet, of course, the overall effect of that, the cumulative effect of that um can be very damaging, not just to our teams, but to to our own reputations, as you pointed out.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we've also seen something interesting in our work, which is that you might think that the people that would be the most likely to not follow up are, in quotes, the lazy people.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that the people um that would be I think I got the order of that right, I hope I did, the most the the most likely to not follow up.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that the people most likely to follow through, to follow up, um, would be the workaholics.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, what we found is that in many cases, workaholics struggle with this as much or more than anybody else.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious as to whether you've seen that as well.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: Fascinating.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I honestly I've never, I've never I've never tried to categorize uh those that miss obligations or commitments into you know lazy or or otherwise.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think there is, if I had to identify a theme, it is a lack of organization.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know that I would right.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm saying more though.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear more about what you found.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: So what so what we've seen, it's kind of interesting.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if you think about the like the classic workaholic, right?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: The classic workaholic is they see this always more stuff to do than can possibly uh than they can possibly get done.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: They know they know the reality, right?
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: That there's always more to do than uh than there is time to do it.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the way that they try to accommodate for that is just work as humanly hard as they can on everything that's there, right?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, make some kind of progress against their uh their to-do list.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they live in this constant state of stress trying trying to do that.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: And what that means is that if you think to use the analogy of the of the balls being juggled, right, they're the people that are juggling more of them.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: And as a result, though, they are then the people who will let them uh will let them fall.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the and the other interesting thing is that when you talk to those people in more detail about it and about that set of behaviors, particularly in coaching scenarios and stuff like that, they'll they're almost like giving themselves a permission slip to drop balls constantly because, like, well, I work so hard.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, obviously stuff is gonna happen uh like this at some point.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I won't name the guy, but for example, when I was working uh when I was working at Microsoft, I interviewed for a different position uh for a for a different role and um had a terrific interview with the hiring with the hiring manager.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the interview, he told me all of the things that you know that he was gonna do to follow up.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: He basically guaranteed me the role on the on the spot.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and said, you know, we'll work through these, you know, this set of processes.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: It'll take about two to three weeks, and then at the end of it, you'll shift over into your new role.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm all excited about this new role.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then two weeks go by, I hear nothing, I send him a note, no response.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Another two weeks goes by, I hear nothing, uh, no response eventually.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: Eventually, month and a half, two months later, um I uh finally get a response from him.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the response was, I'll never forget this.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Balls have been dropped.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: Not that he dropped balls, but balls have been dropped, right?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Somehow, somehow these balls have been these balls have been dropped.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality was that he did the interview, but didn't do the work with HR, lost the lost the job wreck internally.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: There was no job.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: The job disappeared because he was unable to complete the work that he was supposed to do in order to get the additional help that he needed.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: Why did he need that help?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: He needed it because he was overwhelmed, right?
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's very interesting how workaholism and uh being and feeling overwhelmed contribute to this idea of constantly juggling balls.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: And when they are dropped, you have your internal permission slip for dropping them because you just work so so hard, you work harder than anybody.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: So of course balls are going to get dropped every so often.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying your best.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it all it all kind of feeds into this sort of self-perpetuation and self-justification for the behavior.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I do find I think personally this stuff is something that we need to figure out how do we go about, we talk about digital detox all the time.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think like how do we get to a point where we can we can almost like have a commitment detox, right?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: Where we're we know we're not making a thousand commitments and fulfilling a hundred of them, we're making ten commitments and fulfilling all ten.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's the that's the challenge I think that so many of us have to go through.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, but I hey man, um try to be I and I know you would, but I gotta just probe on this.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: If he reached out a month and a half later and said, Paul, I blew it.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just like how different.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Without your remote balls have been dropped.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: How would you have received that message if you said, listen, man, I blew it.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's been six weeks, whatever it is, a lot of things.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: I could share all the details.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: Don't want to bore you with those, but I I I I blew it, man.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: What's your how how different would your reaction have been?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Totally, totally, totally different.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the and and and the reason that I tell the story is because, gosh, I don't know, Kyle, that was probably 15 years ago, maybe, certainly 10, and I still remember it.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that is the and that is the point behind uh behind this, I think, which is that every time we do this, we have our own story, right, that justifies why we're dropping the ball, et cetera, et cetera.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the people that we're interacting with, they have their story.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: And their story is I dealt with this person.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, am I having if if two years later, if he'd have offered me another job, would I have taken it?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not, right?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because he told me everything I needed to know about him.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the that's why, to your point, this is this is so important.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll I'll add this, man.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: I feel, and I didn't mention this earlier, but behind we own our mistakes, there's another sentence or two, and it is we're not judged by our mistakes.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: We're judged by how quickly we remedy them and if we repeat them.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I am just such a firm believer when someone drops the ball, or mini balls in this case, um, but you work like hell to redeem and get the get the train back on the tracks.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: I am more loyal than if the mistake never happened.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I just, man, what a missed opportunity uh by that fella to just own it and and and get it off the plate because everybody's gonna make mistakes.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's one thing to say balls have been dropped.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: This like faceless person, this uh, you know, basically uh shirking your responsibilities and deflecting to someone else instead of just saying, I blew it.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: Man, the connection you could have made or he could have had out of that, out of that mistake uh was completely a missed opportunity.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and and and all too common, by the way.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm working really hard.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not no, I don't care how hard you're working.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: I really don't.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, the opposite is true as well.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: I get I get pushback on this sometimes.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't care if my the members of my team or the people, I don't care how many hours they work.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: And people hear that and they're like, oh, because you're a slave driver, you want them to work.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care if you work 15 hours a week.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: We have a set of obligations and outcomes for which you have been assigned or that you're assigned to deliver.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if you deliver them, mission accomplished.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can do it from the beach.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: But but you can't not do them.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so anyway, I just think there's a whole, there's a we can you and I could probably have a whole hour conversation just on that one alone.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: We could.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: We could.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and on that topic, actually, we're we're way over time.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: We could we could be talking for for a day on that, I think, easily.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I've just got one uh question I want to I want to finish up on uh with you on, which is there's a concept that you introduce actually really early into the book, and you returned to it actually a few times.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's called the the mirror of truth.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um so tell me a little bit about that concept, and then specifically what I'd love to hear is when you're examining yourself in that mirror, what are you seeing most often today?
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I man, I love this question.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the mirror of truth is really a metaphor, it can be a physical mirror, but I I'm convinced um we all have that voice.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's a voice that says, you know, you probably didn't treat that person the way that they deserve to be treated.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, you committed to Paul that you would do X, Y, and Z and you didn't do it.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if it's not the voice, there's just this tugging.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um this tugging, it could be in our gut.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: And unless we are disciplined about some genuine and sometimes uncomfortable self-reflection, uh, we never address that voice.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: We never, we just don't acknowledge it.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: We can't because it's it's it's tough, right?
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to look in the mirror and ask the question, you know, did I make good on my commitments?
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: Am I a hypocrite for evangelizing these principles and not living them myself?
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Am I the leader that I want to be portrayed as?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: What would my leadership legacy be?
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um if we're if we if we're not purposeful about taking the time to do this self-reflection, ask ourselves the tough questions, and be prepared to hear the tough answers.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't have to be, I don't have to do this alone either, by the way.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um if you have a confidant or someone that will tell it to you like it is, um, which is tough to find, frankly, the higher you ascend inside of an organization, your jokes are funnier and people they won't tell you the truth.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: They're they'll just filter because they think it's the right thing to do and it advances their agenda.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: But it can be so if it's someone that's willing to tell you the good, the bad, the ugly, this practice that I started a handful of years ago, and I usually do it very early in the morning when my phone is kind of away from me and I can really go deep inside.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's not meditative, it's more like, okay, laundry list of things I said I was gonna do, laundry list of things I did, and that I do them in a way that I should be proud of.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if it were blast all over the company intranet or social media, whatever, would I would would would it stand the test of time?
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: So all of this to say, Paul, the more purposeful we are about our actions, behaviors, how we treat others, and the more we we reflect on those actions, behaviors, and how we treat each other, the better off we will be, the tighter connections will we will form, and the outcomes they will come so much more easily than uh, hey, do this because I said so.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Kyle, thanks so much for joining us today.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's my pleasure.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: You guys are doing really important work, man.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: Seriously.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_04: Humanity Working is produced and edited for Billion Minds by Matt Neal.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_04: Our interviewer is Paul Slater.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_04: Music is by Dolo Records.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_04: If you like this podcast, please subscribe, like, and recommend us to others.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_04: It helps us reach more people.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_04: If you want to learn more about how Billion Minds gets companies ready for the future of work by building adaptable, resilient employees, look for them on LinkedIn or visit their website at billionminds.com.