Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / David Baddiel: The Jew Problem

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David Baddiel: The Jew Problem · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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Get a humans welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas, he is a dangerous idea for you.
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What is, when we think about Jews, our brains kind of break a little.
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There are a few jigsaw pieces that don't fit together, there are enough cognitive
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dissonances that our intuitions lead us astray, like how do you feel when you hear the word
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of Jewish person? Does that have a different valence? Do you think a victimized person, a
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successful person, a manipulative person, a money hungry person, a virtuous person?
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David Bediel is one of Britain's most successful stand-up comics and comedy writers.
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And as recently embraced his position as a proud Jew, and wrote a book that has completely changed
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the way that I think about social justice, identity, and Jewishness. It's rare that I read a book
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where several times during the reading I think, wow, I'm, my eyes are literally opened, I just
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have not heard this perspective, this point of view, put this way in all of the opinions that I
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ingest from all of the rest of contemporary culture. It's a rare gift to be able to point out
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new ideas to people and David has that gift. I want to say as a preface to this conversation,
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this is not about Gaza, this is not about Israel, this is not about the current conflagration
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in the Middle East. This interview was scheduled before the tragedy of October 7th. David
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regards his ideas as being deeply independent from and discrete from the woes of that
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misbegotten part of the world. He's talking about Western culture, he's talking about
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British Jews primarily, but there's an analog in Australia and the United States, of course.
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So if you feel like, well, why aren't we talking more about
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gals and babies or about the massacre of October 7th, whilst this conversation takes place after
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those events, I wanted to remain true to what I was originally curious about with David,
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which is his analysis of the modern left and the modern rights attitude towards Jewishness.
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So take that as a sort of caveat umbrella over the conversation. David was sort of
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credited in the 90s as being one of the British comics who turned comedy into the new rock and roll,
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they would say. He created hit television shows, the Mary White House experience,
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Newland Badeel in pieces with his double act partner, and the two of them performed
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at Wembley Arena, which of them stadium shows, just the two of them was the UK's first ever
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arena comedy show. He subsequently made documentaries, he's written nine hugely successful
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children's books, he's written four adult novels, he's appeared on smash hit British shows like
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Little Britain, Skins, 8 out of 10 cats, QI, his latest book also has a television documentary
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accompanying it. It's called Jews Don't Count. The book is amazing, I have yet to see the documentary,
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but if you're an Australia, you can see it on SPS, on demand. Please enjoy this conversation with
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the one and only, David Badeel.
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I love the book, as I often read it, I get by deviled the book, it really gave me some
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new insight. It's a weird time to be talking about this since you didn't write the book in
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a climate like the one we now find ourselves in. Well, I wrote it, it's a Jews Don't Count.
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Yes, I wrote it, there's a coder in the book, which is the moment at which Jeremy Corbyn got
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suspended from the Labour Party on the day that the EEC HR, whatever it's called, there was a
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report by a big human rights commission on the Labour Party, which found that they had been
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their duty of care towards their Jewish members and not been up to scratch.
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He refused to accept the findings of the report and, as a result, was suspended from the Labour Party,
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so I was writing at a time where suddenly antisemitism was certainly in the political headlines,
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was certainly a live issue in the way that it hadn't been for a long time, but it's almost like
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since then, you know, it's more, it's like every, you know, you think that at some point this
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tiny minority is not going to be in the crossfires of history, it's not going to be central to some
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massive, you know, either global or domestic political issue, but it doesn't seem to be stopping
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any time soon, it just seems to be more of a thing. So I think I've already said the same thing,
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David, could Muslims say it just seems like no matter where we turn, there's always something,
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some terrorist events, somewhere in the world. Muslims certainly couldn't say they were a tiny
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minority, they're not a tiny minority, there are four million Muslims in Britain,
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there I think there are two billion in the world, I don't know, there are a lot, whereas there's
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like 15 million Jews in the world, 275,000 in Britain, we are a tiny minority, so there's less reason
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for Jews demographically to be so at the center of things than they are. But yeah, no, I wrote it,
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I wrote it, I've been feeling since very early in the century, you like in about 2002 or whatever
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this thing, which is very important for Jews don't count, which sometimes we would not understand,
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which is it is not a book about antisemitism, it is a book specifically about the neglect
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of antisemitism and of Jewish identity, Jewish representation, Jewish inclusion, all those words
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that are, you know, beloved or progressives that within a culture that at the same time was
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upping that for every other minority, so it felt to me like, okay, this thing that's happening
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now throughout culture whereby minorities in general are being given more space, more time,
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more witness in the world, which is kind of a good thing, but some are other Jews are really
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really low in that mix, and I'll be talking about that for a bit, and then when I was asked to write
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an essay book about anything, which is what happened, the times the two supplements asked me
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I thought I'd write about that, and it is weird, quite useful for book sales, but it is weird
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how it's not really, oh it's not really left the sort of relevant shelf ever since that.
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I mean useful to see this is why the antisemites are right that the Jews have orchestrated the
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war in Gaza in order to profit our own book sales, David, the sinister conspiracy never ends,
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I can't believe your shamelessness and just admitting on this very podcast that you were behind
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the other side of the text. Sometimes terrible people we offer it in plain style.
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That's true, exactly. So what's the don't count? Unpack the concept of not
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helping. Okay, so again, that's quite important that people understand that because it is misunderstood
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in various different ways, like one of the ways it's misunderstood is by people who just take it
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literally, so for example occasionally I get a message from someone in America where they
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struggle a bit with irony sometimes and say, oh I saw this work, I was really worried like,
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was it just basically a Nazi text and how could you have written it? But in Germany, in Germany,
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they had to change the name. In Germany, I had this brilliant thing whereby they said,
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we can't call it Yudinzeilinni, which is Jews don't count, we can't call it that. And I said,
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why not? And they said, well, you know, with that history, and I was tempted to troll them and say,
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sorry, what history? But I just said people will take it literally, which again seems amazing,
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like the sort of cliche that Germans can't get irony. But it turns out what it means, it's
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so Jews should count is basically the message, but what I'm really doing is I'm analyzing an
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attitude that I think exists mainly amongst progressives as I say, which is that within the concern
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that a progressive mindset would have for minorities. And by the way, this isn't just racial
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minorities, this would include gender minorities, sexual minorities, disabled people, whatever,
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just the minorities that people care about. And I'll often what I'm talking there is not the
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minorities themselves, it's kind of the white, you know, cis, whatever, straight progressive person,
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you can see this themselves concerned about all these other minorities. There's somewhere other
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Jews and Jewish issues and the notion of Jewish identity is not important in that. That's what I
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mean by not counting. And that a Jew holding up his hand or her hand and saying, I think this is
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anti-Semitic. It doesn't get the same respect and deference and listen to us. Another minority
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will get in calling out racism, for example. I mean, that was very clear during the Corbin years,
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is that, you know, Jews saying, hang on a minute, I think this is a bit anti-Semitic, whatever was
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going on, you would not get that thing, which was happening simultaneously during Black Lives Matter.
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Simultaneously, there was a thing whereby the progressive articles of faith were gained right when
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person from minority calls out discrimination against that minority. Primarily what you're supposed
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to do, if you're not a member of that minority, is listen, not challenge what they're saying,
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understand, consider that you might have unconscious bias against them, all that stuff, right?
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Whether you believe in it or not, that's what the progressive mindset was being adjusted towards,
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except with Jews. You were told, no, that's not anti-Semitic, you're being hysterical, you're a
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shill for Israel, whatever else it might be. So that's what I mean by not counting, is basically not
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being given the same space as other minorities when one talks about one's own identity or about racism
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against one's own minority. So part of the reaction that I suppose one gets to that is, if
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other minorities are really disadvantaged and they have, they make less money than the mean and
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they're subjected to all kinds of systemic prejudices, whereas the Jews are doing quite well,
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look at them, they have good jobs and they make money in our society, so you can't really call
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them the same thing as a historically disadvantaged minority in the 21st century, in the way.
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So there's a number of things wrong with that attitude. Number one, not all forms of racism are
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the same, not all, so racism is not the same and the effect of racism is not the same. So I'm not
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contending that the way that people are racist towards Jews is exactly the same as the way they are
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racist towards other minorities. In fact, it's very specific the way that people are racist towards
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Jews and that's one of the things that the books try to isolate, the specificity being almost
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exactly what you've just said, which is a notion that Jews are not disadvantaged, not marginalized,
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and so therefore that they are powerful and privileged, essentially white, and so that therefore
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they can't be held to suffer. And the problem with that is that whatever it becomes very much
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right economics, it's a very kind of Marxist mindset, but it completely ignores violence, that's
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what it ignores, and there is rising, I mean obviously at the moment, but astonishing, astonishing
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rising hate crime towards Jews, but even when I was writing it, Jews were regularly year on, year out,
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like the percentage of hate crime against Jews was going up and up and up, and with it, you know,
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this incredible growth of sort of antisemitism or line of the conviction of conspiracy theorists
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that Jews were in control of everything. And what is one of the key very important things is that
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people often don't see antisemitism as discrimination or racism because they see it as punching up,
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exactly for sort of the reason that you've just said, which is that, you know, when can you,
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for example, says, I'm going to go deaf con on all Jews and issues like essentially a death
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threat to all Jews, however absurd that is, what needs to be understood is that in his own mind,
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he would never see that as being racist because what he sees, what he thinks is they, they are the
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people to control, they're in control, they control the world, they control the music industry,
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so what I'm doing is a rebel yell, even though Kanye is sort of much more powerful,
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and he has more followers than all the Jews in the world, he has more followers than all the Jews
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in the world, and yet Kanye will say, can that be right? Can that be right? Can that be right?
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Yeah, he's got one of us, he'll be in Seinfeld, people like that, they must have followers.
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Oh, I'm sure Kanye has got more than them. Oh, but not combined. No, I don't think he's got more
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followers than all the Jews, man, he may be close to all the Jews combined. No, I'm sorry,
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I've got a Jewish again, I can't remember. I'm talking about the actual amount of Jews in the
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world. Right, right. I see. I see. Okay, yes, yes, yes. And yeah, I'm guessing now, but I reckon
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Kanye has got 80 million followers on to Instagram, whatever. So the point is that when Kanye says,
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you know, Jews control the world, and I'm just shouting out against the Jews control of this,
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that and the other, then that, however absurd it might be, you know, this is someone who's got a lot
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of, he's got a big platform, right? And it's not seen as racism, it's just,
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Jews not, I mean, just in terms of the recent stuff that we've seen, you know, you saw that thing
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presumably in Australia where people have gone TikTok to praise a song of bin Laden's letter
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to America. I didn't see it specific to Australia, but I'm aware of the letter, but tell people
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about it if they're not. Okay, so it turns out that the Guardian, a British newspaper, has on
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its website, I think I saw it at the time in 2002, they published a letter by a song of bin Laden
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justifying the 2001 twin tower attacks. And essentially, it seems on the surface, maybe just like
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like an attack on America for imperialism, whatever. But I actually read it. And if you read it,
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it's not really an attack on America, it's an attack on Jews. I mean, it's wholeheartedly an
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attack on Jews. America is just seen as the pawn of Jews. And the real evil control of the world
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is Jews and the West is totally in the sway of Jews and whatever. So then what happened was,
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I don't know if anyone saw this, but anyway, he was a big deal. A lot of Gen Z people were going
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on TikTok, having read the letter in the gadget, and basically saying, Hey, it's amazing. I've
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had my whole ideas turned upside down because like, I thought he was a bad guy, but it turns out
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he was just a kind of freedom fighter. And you know, he was liberation guy and blah, blah, and kind
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of, you know, with this element of, I've seen this in Palestine, so it must be true about this guy
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as well, because he's from the Middle East and whatever. And I didn't watch all of them, because
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that would have rotted my brain. But I got a real sense that they didn't even notice lots of them
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that the letter was primarily like something from nine mine camp. I mean, really, it's like something
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of mine, comfy is infested with the idea that Jews are in control of money in capital and banking
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and politics and and their and that their influences totally malign. And therefore, they need to be
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destroyed. And it's like these young people are just saying, Hey, he was punching back that I'd
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never understood this before, but what a summer was doing with the twid towers was punching back and
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blah, blah. And that feels to me like more and more and more, it's hard to counter that people
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are so obsessed with this binary of victimizers of victimized of oppressed and oppressors and Jews
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are somehow never allowed to be the victimized despite the years and years and years of persecution
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and genocide and, you know, the psychical dude, by the way, you said in the 21st century, I mean,
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the psychical loop of history would suggest that the persecution and violence against Jews is
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definitely not over. I mean, in the 21st century, you know, there's been the largest religious
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massacre in America was in Pittsburgh of Jews in 2018. In Argentina, 86 Jews were killed in,
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I don't know, a car around the 2016 I think. I mean, Jews are still being killed in large amounts,
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you know, all over the world. What's also interesting that I mean a lot of people don't realize is
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that as just as victims of hate crimes, I don't know what it is in the UK, but I check recently,
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again, to make sure I wasn't wrong about this, but in an administrator in the US, by far,
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the largest group of hate crime victims is Jews. We see a lot less of it for some reason in the
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in the prayers and it looms larger that, you know, some crazy right-winger punches a person wearing
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a seat to the Lord, you know, that Muslims are being denigrated, but I think it was about three or
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four times the number of Jews are victims of hate crimes in Australia, the US, and any other
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minority, including sexual minorities. So that's just a background reality that doesn't get
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a huge amount of publicity. Well, one of the reasons that Josh is that, of course, we get we,
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and I'm including you in this because you're Jewish or is we get hate from both ends of the
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political spectrum. And, you know, we get this far right people, the killer in Pittsburgh,
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he was a far right gunman who believed that this thing called the Great Replacement Theory,
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which in fact Elon Musk has just condoned on Twitter. So I don't know if you know that, do you know
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that? Okay, so I've been being an honor matter for, you know, 10 years, so I didn't realize that
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Elon was on on that bandwagon, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, to people who are absolutely with it.
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Okay, so the Great Replacement Theory, which once again, pitches Jews as ultimately in control,
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you must always, you know, all of these ideas, they always imagine Jews as having a malign,
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but extremely powerful influence. So right-wing people believe that multiculturalism and immigration
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have been designed by Jews to undermine the Aryan white races, literally to sort of dilute
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the DNA pool of the Aryan white races, and that what we're doing is like secretly busing in
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brown and black people to white countries in order to undermine the white people so that we can
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take over the world. And lots of people believe versions of this. And recently I believe that,
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and he was the reason, so it was the gunman who killed 11 Jews in Pittsburgh was on GAB,
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which is what like where extremists used to have to go before Twitter became what it is now,
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under Elon, and he believed that because of the tree of life synagogue in Pittsburgh was helping,
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can you believe this? He was helping, he was helping Syrian refugees to settle in America as a
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charitable thing. He believed that was evidence of the Great Replacement, and he actually said,
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I'm going in having been talking about this for like, you know, 100 GABs, and then killed them,
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but then the other day, some can't, can I say that? Well, we might even believe that one,
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but go for it, can't away. Some terrible person on social media said, oh, Jews hate white people.
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This is very interesting in terms of this notion of Jews of white. I've said this before,
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that Jews are shroding as whites in that they're seen as sort of non-white by right-wing people,
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or very white by left-wing people, but some right-wing bloke was saying Jews hate white people,
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and they hate white people, which is why they're promoting immigration. It was just the usual stuff,
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really. And Elon said, that's the truth, because Elon, I think as he's South African, has
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quite a lot of big thing in it, big chip on his shoulder about why he considers to be anti-white
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racism. Right. Whatever you think about the idea or not of anti-white racism,
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it's not an idea I'm very interested in, really, is part of the great replacement theory is Jews
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hate white people, and apparently, yes, trying to undermine them so that we can take over them,
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and it positions Jews as non-white, whatever. Anyway, I'm saying all this because to answer
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your point about hate crime is that Jews get hate from right-wing people and left-wing people
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and Islamist, and that's partly why we're so top of the league of hate. On the right-wing
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replacement theory, people might remember that when the loses with teaky tortures went marching
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through Charlottesville during the Trump administration, they were chanting Jews will not replace us,
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which seemed weird at the time. It seemed like, why don't they just say kill the Jews,
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or what do you mean replace who, they're not enough Jews to replace you, until it was explained
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to me that the theory is that the Jews are trying to replace good-upstanding members of Western
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civilization with dirty hordes from abroad as part of the Jewish conspiracy on the mind-western
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civilization. That's correctness. I didn't know that all. Yeah, that's absolutely
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one. I think that's in my book. I thought why are they saying that, and I think I make a joke about
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we can't replace you because we would never wear that shirt. It looks terrible. But it's not,
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it's not about us replacing them like for likes. Yeah, yeah, us,
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orchestrating that. Yeah, and but so I think whenever we talk like this about about part of the
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nefariousness of the slides against Jews being the claim that we control everything,
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it's important also to concede Jews have been wildly successful, so people can point to examples
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of disproportionate Jewish control over finances, media. Is that being made up? I mean,
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I feel some need for us to have some kind of cultural explanation for the success of Jews, do you?
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Well, no, I don't, I mean, well, disproportionate thing, I push back against it generally,
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not least because it's often not true. Like, for example, I looked into this,
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it's sort of the obvious example, but during the 1920s in Germany, it was a belief held not
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just by, you know, emerging Nazis, but by the population at large, the Jews controlled the
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banking system in Germany. That was just a given thing. Everyone thought it was true. And the
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actual truth was there were 2% of Jews, 2% of the banking system were Jewish, which was about
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in line, maybe slightly over because there weren't that many Jews, you know, who were of the right
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age to work in that sector. I think also, by the way, this disproportionality does not work
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again with other minorities, really, except possibly gaze and musicals and stuff. But
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there are a lot of black people who are very dominant in football now in Britain. Now, I don't
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think that's a thing that you would say that that's a problem or that's disproportionate whatever.
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There's just a lot of very talented black footballers, right? And Jews are, yeah, Jews are good
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at certain things, just like other minorities might be good at certain things and they're quite good
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at storytelling. So there's quite a lot of them have gone into theater and film and whatever.
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Even this notion that they control Hollywood is kind of a weird one. Jews built some of Hollywood
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because they arrived in Hollywood as immigrants are unable to go into lots,
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lots of businesses because they just weren't allowed to. And they were good at sort of
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bored of ill and things like that. And from that, the Hollywood appeared. But even then, you know,
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like one of the things I think is most interesting, there's a bit, as you know, in the book about
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sort of authenticity casting, right? And about how every minority in ways that are not,
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I think, that helpful for acting. But anyway, it just is the case. Every minority now has to be
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played in line with the minority of the character. You know, whether that be the obvious ones,
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which is black or brown people, but also deaf people, autistic people, whatever.
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But Jews can always be played by non-Jews or whatever. And then I occasionally meet people and
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they say to me, well, Jews are overrepresented anyway. They say Jews are overrepresented in film,
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TV show. And I want to say to them, well, they're not clearly because if they could cast Jewish
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actors, I think they would. What they do is they think can't find a Jewish actor who's a big
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enough star to play Leonard Bernstein or Goldamere. We just isn't one. There's not that many.
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So therefore, we're going to have to cast a non-Jew. And we're not that worried about that,
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because we know we won't get the same trouble as if we cast a non-trans person or a non-gay person,
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let alone a white person as a person of color. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Do you think so? I don't know if I'm really by it. I think, okay, so it's a complicated thing.
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And I was once asked to do this thing, where this program about Jewish success,
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you know, about like, should we not grasp Jewish success? Because we're not own Jewish success.
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Because Jews are, yeah, they are very small minority. And it is true that, and I am sort of proud
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of it, but I say sort, I'll explain why I said sort of, that 22% of Nobel Prize winners
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are Jews, despite 0.05% of the world's population being Jews. And I think, yeah, okay, perhaps we
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just should just own that. We should be proud of it, which we should. The trouble is because
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there are so many fucking anti-seemites in the world, is we can't be purely proud of it,
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because some will say, well, that's because Jews control science. That's because Jews control
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the institutions. I think the, I think the explanation, I mean, the the most plausible explanations
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that I've heard, which are likely as to placate the conspiracy, the anti-Jewish conspiracy theorists,
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that Jews have a cultural tradition of valuing education and a kind of Talmudical learning in
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the family and debate and argumentation. So there are cultural reasons why Jews would excel
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in cultural spheres, including entertainment and the media and academia. And then
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there is a history of exclusion from the legitimate professional classes that has led to Jews
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becoming traders in a lot of places, because it was the only way they could get by. And that
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explains some history of Jews being dominant in finance, because they couldn't have a job that
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required you to get some kind of slip of paper from a government to get your credibility
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to have. And so I think once you sort of concede the punching above one's weight in those spheres,
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then you can acknowledge that there's for one of the Bitwood overrepresentation of Jews in successful
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spheres in those. And then I'm about to accept it. Yeah, but I also think there's something else,
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which is that other minorities do East Asians do very well and whatever and don't tend to suffer
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from structural disadvantages or whatever, but it's only really Jews that get this kind of malign
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thing, like classifying Jews in a way that would not be allowable for other minorities is allowable.
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So there's a famous play called the Laman Trilogy, which you may be aware of. I don't know,
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it's played for it on the West End and Broadway. And that's not written by a Jew, but it absolutely
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portrays banking as sort of modern bankers sort of be invented by these three Jews. I mean,
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they're real people, the Laman brothers, so they were Jewish, right? But they portray that their
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Jewishness is absolutely integral to why they became successful bankers. And then that follows to
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them, sort of nearly destroying the world at the time of the global rash. So Jews, their banking
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Jew equals banker equals, you know, the world cooks noses and are they sniveling and do they
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scurry around on rough times or do they idle, idle, idle, money, money? Well, they do originally
27:55
in the play and of course they're not played by Jews. That's the other way. It's the on Broadway
28:00
and they're all not played by Jews. They're played by other minorities. Yeah, right,
28:04
mainly. Right. And my point is, even if it's true, right, even as maybe there's some truth that
28:11
Laman brothers were Jewish, right? Then I think you had to ask the question, but someone still
28:15
decided to write a play about that and put it off stage and critics loved it. And no one
28:19
question whether that was okay, whereas I promised you a negative portrayal of any other minority,
28:25
even if it were true, historically true, would not, they would be questions after that. People say,
28:30
why is this playwright or why is the national theatre decided to focus on this negative idea
28:37
of gays or black people or whatever? What else it might be? No one asked that question very,
28:41
very recently. Very recently, that question has been asked of that play. That's right. I mean,
28:45
you also make the point in the book that there are all kinds of other minorities that do well
28:49
along other metrics. I mean, you mentioned black brits and football, but I mean, Hindus in America
28:57
earn more than the average American as well. And we don't use that as a reason to claim that
29:03
anti-Indian or anti-Hindu sentiment is valid in some way. We don't say that racism against
29:13
South Asians isn't quite as bad as racism against other groups because they're doing all right
29:18
financially in the United States. That doesn't wash. Yeah. And also, I think there's one point
29:24
where I get slightly, I try and stop being angry in the book. There's an anger in the book,
29:28
but I think it's controlled. There's one ball where I slightly lose it. And that is, I'm talking
29:33
about this. I'm talking about this constant association of Jews with money. And the sort of
29:37
sense of that somehow does excuse all sorts of violence and negative imagery around Jews or whatever.
29:45
And then I just say fuck off about money. Because my point is, it's a very neo-Marxist idea that
29:51
all that matters is economic circumstance because I can promise you that, as I say in the book,
29:57
that many many Jews, including my grandparents, may have been rich at one point. And then what
30:03
happens is a violent sense that they should not have that money, even though they will have earned
30:08
it in a completely fair and okay way under a capitalist society. They shouldn't have it.
30:13
That somewhere other them having that money is illicit and involve some kind of control that
30:19
they shouldn't have. And then a rising up happens, a reprisal happens, a correction happens,
30:24
which in the case of my grandparents led to their whole family being murdered. And that's the
30:29
thing is that these constant sense of like all that matters is economic circumstance, the Jews
30:34
are doing okay. So therefore we shouldn't worry about the Jews. I think that's a hot skip and jump
30:40
from that to, oh and actually they're doing too okay. And they shouldn't have that big house and
30:45
they shouldn't have that car or whatever it might be. And let's take it away from them. And that
30:50
that is what's happened psychologically throughout history. Why do you think it is that so let's
30:55
just park the behavior of the rice and look at the behavior of the left over the past 10 or 20
31:00
years as the left has become has moved away from concerns about I guess economic inequality
31:07
and class and towards you know worldview of diversity and equity that's based on the identity
31:14
groups of people and the importance of lifting up historically marginalized racial and gender
31:19
and sexual communities. Why Jews aren't in that? I mean when they are in that the point that you
31:26
make in your book is that when they are in that it's always is usually couched on the left in terms
31:31
of like we denelves anti-semitism and all other forms of bigotry including blah blah blah blah blah.
31:37
You rarely get just like yeah, Jews shouldn't be shot on, they are being shot on.
31:43
Yeah, yeah, well you don't and I think in the book I suggest that the tendency of the left
31:50
never to just talk about anti-semitism in a supportive way. Obviously they sometimes talk about
31:55
it in a defensive way. They are often saying how dare you suggest that the left is anti-semitive
31:59
but if they talk about a supportive way like we have hall anti-semitism it's always with and
32:04
all other types of racism. It often is with and Islamophobia etc etc and I suggest that that's
32:11
the left's all lives matter. The suggestion which was correct I think that people who didn't lie
32:18
black lives matter tend to say well all lives matter that is a diminishment of the specific
32:24
issues that black people face in America but elsewhere in the world and people acknowledge that.
32:30
Normally someone who wanted to say all lives matter was dog piled on by the left because of a sense
32:36
that they were ignoring that specific issue but with anti-semitism without fail it's always
32:42
broadened out into a spectrum of all things. All minorities are of course equally important.
32:49
It turns out the movement away from just pure old you know concerns of the left to do with class
32:57
and to do with economics or whatever is just a lot to do I think I don't know that much. I don't
33:03
know really what the answer is I'd say in the book that it's happened it doesn't why it's happened
33:06
I think it's just the nature of late capitalism and also the internet so what the internet is in my
33:12
opinion is not a marketplace of ideas but a marketplace of identity so I think what we've done is
33:18
we've given a camera essentially to everybody and to project their own life onto the world and what
33:25
that means is that people are able to say this is me and how do you say this is me in a high volume
33:33
you do it by saying I belong to this tribe whatever it might be sometimes that involves the
33:38
creation of new tribes to be really exciting and new and different and you and it helps if you can
33:43
say I hate all other tribes because that makes you more you know I you're identity more focused
33:49
and clear and whatever that's why social media is so antagonistic and angry and all the rest of it
33:54
and because the left is about power is about the association of who's the powerful and who's the
33:58
power less I must be on the side of the power less the more you get these identities emerging the
34:03
more the left seeks out the ones who can claim are the power less often the new power less because
34:10
they're not interested in the old power less and Jews are always a problem within that there
34:15
was a problem because of this notion that Jews are powerful and because of the notion that Jews
34:19
are white which I've said earlier you know the heart of it is is is wealth this is social wealth
34:24
and whiteness is very important and as I try and say in the book as I said already that Jews are
34:30
both white and non-white which is the truth and that's nothing to do with skin color although I
34:35
have in my time been beaten up when I was a kid I was beaten up by people who thought I was a
34:39
Pakistani but that's not the point the fact that some Jews are not are actually non-white is
34:44
irrelevant the point is that Jews are classified as non-white by the far right and classified as
34:50
ultra-white by the left and the classification of Jews as white is one of the many things that
34:57
disqualifies them from being you know as concerned as as they are about other minorities it's
35:03
interesting isn't it because I mean gays are all you know white gays are all white
35:07
well you know they're all white gays as a group of white I think I said to you when we were having
35:15
you know I think I said to you and I'd like you to talk a bit about this but without getting
35:19
you into more trouble I think that the the minority that might be closest in terms of the not
35:26
counting phenomenon with progressives is gay men that I think gay white men there's the same
35:33
sense I think which is part of it which is like yeah they've had their moment they're cut they're
35:38
economically fine generally they've had their moment we fall for them now they're fine we must
35:43
move on and and that just ignores the possibility of homophobia and all the rest of it I mean
35:49
I mean yeah that may be true but I also think that gay white men have so successfully captured
35:54
the elite university educated conversation around what identity and diversity mean that that
36:04
that it's not analogous to like we really have one that like there isn't an organization in the
36:10
West that doesn't have at aggressively pro-LGBT QIA plus agenda and where one of the worst things
36:19
that you could possibly do as an employee would be to make a homophobic slur against a work colleague
36:24
I mean you get pulled up against HR instantly whereas you could probably say something about the
36:29
rankings are honest you might sort of mean so you could kind of mean them Jews you know so like
36:36
the conversation I think is still the elite conversation is still a lot more comfortable with
36:40
latent anti-celetism is that latent homophobia yeah now I agree with that I mean specifically
36:46
sort of gay white men I think I think I think that obviously within the LGBTQ umbrella yeah there's
36:53
many if you've got a couple I think but I'll let it pass yes well there's many tribes within within
37:02
that umbrella that progressives see it see almost at the top of the tree of people they need to fight
37:09
for and and I and obviously it's quite a white umbrella whatever but I mean I think I don't
37:16
want to get into it because I can already hear the whole shouting at me about it but I I think that
37:22
the notion of you know economic comfort and yeah and whiteness and all the rest of it
37:30
it doesn't allow part of anything for the complications of being Jewish like my niece is half
37:36
Jewish half black right she's a Jewish person of color it israel you know there's a very strong
37:42
sense I think at the moment that Israel represents a kind of outpost of whiteness
37:48
in the Middle East and that what people feel they're supporting are oppressed Arabs against Jews
37:55
but there's enormous amount of Arab Israelis there's no matter Mizrahi Israelis of Iraqi Israelis
38:00
about 50% of Israelis are what you buy because it's a to be brown people right and in a way what
38:07
I'm arguing for always in the book is just like the truth being complex because I'm arguing against
38:14
the binary is a good and evil I'm arguing against the idea that we always know who the good is and
38:18
the baddies are and Jews are Jews are so often a glitch in that you know it's like if you're someone
38:24
who believes I just want to fight for the people who've got nothing or whatever and against the
38:29
people who've got everything a minute later you're gonna be you're gonna be like perting down Jews
38:35
houses I think it is interesting that we're in the sort of oppression Olympics you know the hierarchy
38:44
of victimized identities if you take the you know let's say the gay person and then you add on
38:51
another disadvantaged minority status like they're a person of color and then you add on
38:55
another minority status like they're a trans person then they sort of rise higher and higher on
39:01
the priority lists of a good progressive right yeah such that a trans a woman of color who is
39:07
also an Arab Muslim is now even more worthy of our support and protection than than if you remove
39:14
one of those attributes but if you add Jew doesn't quite work the same it's always a minus I mean
39:24
as you said it then I thought well that's a minus I mean it's I know it's the case I know it's the
39:30
case that you know young Jews who might want to be in these spaces like you know fighting the good
39:37
fight against whoever you know they tend to not put forward their Jewishness you know some of the
39:44
hard breaking letters I've got although also sometimes at least a little bit inspiring because the
39:47
books help them have come from young people young Jews who are you know in rooms with people who
39:55
either are of other minorities or release people who want to fight for minorities and they end up not
40:02
telling them they're Jewish because they know that that won't be taken seriously or won't be a
40:07
thing and indeed might just lead to some kind of you know antisemitism in the room like I remember
40:15
one guy writes to me and saying I want to say I'm in these rooms he was like 18 and he's very much
40:21
like a kid who wants to be going on marches and whatever and he says I want to say I'm Jewish
40:26
because I want to be able to them to know who I am and I want them to know my own stuff whatever
40:30
but I know they won't consider it legitimate I remember him saying use the word legitimate
40:34
and that's true right in terms of what you've just said you know listing those things that
40:40
will be taken seriously it's true that you you can just hear it come on you can see that that sounds
40:45
like a bum no it's like adding straight white male to it yeah straight white male yeah you're not
40:52
helping yes yeah yeah yeah no it's that yeah and what what is amazing about that is you know
41:02
Jews are you know arguably the most persecuted minority of all time it sort of feels I feel
41:07
by the way having said that I want to make it clear I don't like the fucking persecutory
41:11
Olympics I hate and some people accuse me of joining in with it but really what I'm doing is saying
41:16
no I'm saying we are not at the table of this we're not in the conversation about it and we
41:22
should be in the conversation about it we should you know Jews should be the coming but I'm not
41:26
trying to push anyone out or say that Jews is more important or less important just saying we should
41:30
be part of the conversation about discrimination because look at the fucking history Jews have been
41:36
you know pogromed and massacred and and all over the world by the way I didn't even I read a book
41:42
brilliant book called people love their Jews by Dara Hall which is essentially about how people
41:46
will revere Jews as long as they're being killed right but they'd be liking they'd be like
41:52
when they're being sort of up the tea and then annoying and alive and all the things or whatever
41:58
and one of the things about the book is like people think I missed you here right they think I know
42:03
it I don't like she's like telling me in the book about massacres in China massacres in South
42:08
America massacres I would use them in like really it's amazing that they're even 50 million left
42:14
and you know I kind of think like so how can it end up that when you're in a room when a young
42:23
Jew is in a room of people talking about how they have to fight for minorities he is too embarrassed
42:28
to mention that he's Jewish how can that be well let's talk about the alphabet in the room then
42:33
which is the Jewish state and whether or not Israel's existence and behavior has contributed
42:39
to this perception that Jews are powerful and wielding that power in unethical ways over other
42:47
or disadvantaged people what's your relationship to Israel well my basic position on Israel which is
42:55
come under pressure since October the 7th and I haven't quite sorted it all out in my head yet
43:01
so we'll have to talk about that but my basic position on Israel for a very long time
43:05
was that the primary way in which a progressive person almost any but certainly a progressive person
43:13
but almost anyone will react to someone talking about antisemitism like me publicly whatever
43:19
the first thing they'll say is well what about Israel what about Palestine blah blah blah even when
43:24
what I'm talking about his antisemitism in Britain or whatever and my position has always been
43:29
that itself is kind of racist you wouldn't ask that you wouldn't go up to a British Muslim talking
43:37
about Islamophobia in the Tory party in Britain and say please explain how you feel about human rights
43:45
in Saudi Arabia or you know the killing of the Rahinga in Myanmar before you before you can say
43:51
anything about this subject you need to clear the air that wouldn't happen that would be to be
43:56
racist and it happens all the time to choose it's a reflex thing about Jews is happening
44:01
incredibly at the moment so I tweeted something about my cats today I'm often tweet about my cats
44:08
and I don't look at responses on Twitter now but I thought I can check this one because it's just
44:12
I guess get some nice pictures of cats and about five down it was stop fucking talking about your
44:17
cats you wank and why don't you talk about what's happening your beloved Zionist terrorist state
44:21
what it's doing in Gaza blah blah blah so there's a reflex thing and I would refuse it and I
44:27
continue to refuse it I continue to say it is not my responsibility as a British Jew to and also I
44:34
don't I don't I know a lot of Jews do I don't have a great feeling of sort of soulful or romantic
44:39
association with the state of Israel having said that I felt incredibly moved and disturbed and
44:47
upset by what happened on October the 7th in a way that sort of overrode my
44:54
normal kind of disengagement with the state of Israel and I think that's to do with like how
45:00
much it ran a bell in the sort of intergenerational trauma of me as someone whose mom was born in
45:06
Nazi Germany and whose relatives have all been murdered because I think it felt like oh it's
45:12
that kind of violence it's a pogrom and that kind of violence is impossible to pretend that you
45:17
don't feel connected to in a bad way so I still feel that and I also feel like at the moment
45:26
antisemitism going through so through the roof that I have to talk about the situation even though
45:33
I'm still going to say stop asking me to answer for a foreign country for the actions of a foreign
45:38
country because I don't have to do that the demand the demand that as a British Jew I still have to
45:45
answer for the actions of the Israeli government is itself racist I think it's fair enough to
45:51
question why people don't want to talk about antisemitism in the West without spinning the conversation
45:57
back to Israel and at the same time I feel as a Jewish as a as a gay guy let's take a different
46:07
analogy as a gay guy I feel some standing to criticize my fellow gays in the way that they prosecute
46:17
pride and not the standing but maybe duty to tease out where I think the movement has gone a rye
46:27
you mentioned yes I mean we started off talking about that I don't know if we I don't know by
46:32
the way we're including that conversation at the start because I was a bit worried about it but
46:35
anyway so I think that you know I would say that you wanting to do that is up to you right but I
46:47
don't think it's up to non gay people to demand of you that you have an opinion either way
46:55
right right right I mean pride obviously is is is horribly similar in terms of people all having
47:01
a febrile opinion about it right but if it was the case that everyone had a febrile opinion about
47:07
whether or not pride should happen I think that's the conversation for you to have and as a gay person
47:12
you have an opinion about it but I don't think you should be in a position whereby someone is
47:16
saying unless you talk about this I'm not going to take any of your opinions seriously I mean
47:20
no I think that's I think that's fine but like I also think that they would that I would understand
47:25
why there was a greater suspicion towards the gay community if we were all being sort of
47:32
evasive and hegemonic about the problems with in the community than if we were wrestling openly
47:39
with it I mean take the analogy of Muslims that you just gave like we don't ask Muslims to answer
47:45
for Saudi Arabia and yet after 9-11 I don't think it was entirely illegitimate or as to feel that
47:52
I mean if I was a Muslim and I had the Taliban speaking on behalf of all Muslims and been
47:58
allowed in claiming to be working on behalf of all Muslims I would sort of want to distance
48:05
myself from that claim and you know Israel is not just like Saudi Arabia is towards
48:11
but towards Muslims it's not like claims to be speaking on behalf of all Jewish it does
48:17
no I'll do with that although I don't think the 9-11 analogy quite works because they attacked
48:21
America right they attacked America so Americans you know may or may not I mean I don't know but
48:28
it might still be considered to be racist but it's sort of understandable maybe that Americans who
48:33
might have lost people in the twin towers might you know be a bit crossed with some American Muslims
48:37
there's still not maybe fair might still be rate or whatever but you know what I mean Israel is not
48:42
other countries it's bombing a country within the Middle East and whether or not that I don't
48:48
I still I just do not understand why that gives a British person who feels they're very righteous
48:54
and progressive the right to attack a British Jew for saying whatever no I don't think that's
48:59
I don't think that's the claim I mean isn't isn't the question whether or not all Jews in the world
49:05
are being dragged down by the misbegotten policies of a of a group of people in the Middle
49:12
East who claim to speak on behalf of all of them it's like if there was if there was some weird
49:16
cult in Detroit that said it's working on behalf of all people named David globally and it's
49:21
stealing Toyota Camry's you know it's it's carjacking Toyota Camry's on behalf of David's wouldn't
49:26
you be like well hang on actually just to be clear not this David yeah not this one yeah well I
49:33
should I don't completely agree I think that all not in my name thing is like it leads to a sort
49:39
of craven thing in my opinion whereby I think that I think the expectation should not be on the
49:45
innocent person to say this is nothing to do with me I think it should be you know like like he is
49:52
for most minorities like it would feel like an odd demand to insist that most minorities this
50:00
is ethnic more than anything else have to sort of clear the air about how they feel are the behavior
50:06
of foreign state before they're allowed to talk about their own identity in a different country
50:11
it seems to me like that's the responsibility not of them but of the people making the demand
50:16
but having said that I I just don't feel that connection you know it's weird because like I don't
50:23
know did do Israel say they speak for all Jews I mean I don't know if they do say that well that's
50:27
the homeland for the Jews it's the Jewish state actually went to a place today where two Jews
50:34
did describe it as the homeland they instantly thought what how yeah no I mean I agree that it's
50:40
not but it definitely says that it is so whether it claims to be speaking on behalf of all Jews
50:45
it's certainly it's only looks it smells like it's doing so because it claims to be the Jews
50:49
homeland yeah well I don't feel the need to constantly disengage it's sorted like I don't feel
50:58
the need to anymore I used to more to look on Twitter to find out what everyone's saying about me
51:06
right because I kind of think like people are going to be saying shit and doing shit or whatever
51:11
and some of it might feel like it's associated with me but it's not my responsibility to
51:16
disclaim myself from that is what I think I mean I know a lot of people do feel differently in my
51:20
documentary that I did on my book I don't if you saw that no it wasn't right yet okay it's gone
51:25
out you know Australia but I can send it to you there's I have a long argument with Miriam
51:29
Margulis who is massively left weighing a massively anti-zionist and her position is is in a way
51:36
much more connected to Israel than mine you know she's massively anti-zionist but she feels much
51:40
connected to Israel and because she feels connected to Israel she does feel like it is my duty
51:45
it is our duty to call out these people who are doing stuff in your name and I kind of think like
51:50
it's not I don't have to say it's not in my name yeah to even have to say publicly it's not in
51:55
my name feels to me like why am I having to do this it's not you know it just happens to be the one
52:00
country that has that on its flag right so there's a focus on it but there's you know I mean
52:06
Stephen Frye in the same documentary says how many Christians feel the need to disassociate
52:13
themselves from Vladimir Putin right he's Christian and often as said that the crusade in the Ukraine
52:20
is a god-given crusade right he said that he said that he believes he's doing the work of the
52:25
Christian God by defeating Ukraine I've never seen a single Christian so I have to disengage
52:31
myself from the work of Vladimir Putin as a Christian I mean he's not the sole Christian state I
52:37
mean you know Vatican city exists yeah but that's the problem is it the focus is because it's the only one
52:43
and it's the only one because it's a tiny minority and all the rest of it right it's not our fault
52:48
that it's the only one it happens to be the only one because lots of Jews have been killed right
52:54
so Miriam Margulis needs to set up a Jewish state in Tasmania which is
52:59
if they want to set up a Jewish state yeah yeah would be less of a fault that's true I don't know
53:03
I don't know if that bit would be that popular at the moment we say they should be staying with Jewish
53:07
state but you know I don't know it feels really weird at the moment because like I do think that
53:12
there are things about what's happening at the moment in Israel I still feel the need to comment on
53:18
even though I don't like to feel like oh I have to talk about Israel one of them is which is
53:23
happening a lot is that a lot of progressives and other people are sort of denying what happened
53:30
a lot over the seventh right like the brutality of it and the fact that people were raped and people
53:35
were extreme types of torture went on and that feels to be like Holocaust in Israel right because I
53:42
know that stuff happened I'm aware of the footage of it I've been invited to see footage of it I've
53:48
seen some of it it's really hard to watch all of it and you know in the same way that it's hard
53:54
to watch the liberation of Belson right and people deny that too and why are people denying it right
54:03
people denying it because it confuses their idea of good and bad in the same way why are people
54:08
tearing down hostage postages because hostage put you know that happens yeah it does yeah
54:14
yes the Israeli hostages who are being held by Hamas and there are some posters up saying you
54:20
know we lost someone so they're still in in Gaza somewhere and yeah I think the reason they
54:28
tear down hostage posters is because it comes back to one time I said earlier which is that
54:34
one thing that does happen is that Israel Palestine gets framed in a very very binary way and
54:40
one of the binary ways it gets framed is that like anything that happens bad to Israelis must
54:45
just be liberation fighting and whatever and not not a bad thing and anything that the Israelis
54:52
does do is entirely bad and the problem with that is I don't care about Israel Palestine what I
54:57
care about is the truth and the truth is more complicated than that and the truth is that
55:03
all October the 7th really terrible stuff was visited on instant people and so in that moment
55:09
those Jews those Israeli Jews were not the oppressors in those moments they were the vulnerable
55:14
in those moments and that is now being erased by people who just can't bear the idea in the same
55:19
way that the hostages posted a being told torn down because they represent an idea of vulnerable
55:25
Jews well I think the people doing the tearing down would say that it's a bit of distraction
55:32
from the core issue which is that millions of people have been forced to live in squalor in
55:37
you know outdoor refugee camps in perpetuity with no hope of a better life so yes
55:44
the hostages bad but there are millions of people who have effectively been
55:49
hostages for years and we never saw posters about them yeah that's not that isn't a reason to
55:54
tear them down I mean I don't agree I mean you know I that isn't like if you want to make that
55:59
point make that point you don't have to tear the hot tear them down unless you feel is I can't bear
56:06
complex well sometimes sometimes mobs out subtle daily that I find it is more thinking yeah it's
56:12
more thinking and and it I mean I mean I you know I think the whole thing becomes a stupid battle
56:20
in the west or an idea of like which who's right who's wrong in all the rest of it and after a while
56:29
nuance gets completely lost I mean I guess we can talk he sort of we talk about
56:35
the morality of expecting Jews or any community to answer for people who do missed who do misdeeds
56:43
in their name and we can talk about the strategy of own of trying to own one's own distance
56:50
from people who are doing things in your name from inside the community but just tactically wouldn't
56:57
there be less anti-semitism if there wasn't this easy narrative for people to look at and this
57:04
ongoing trauma being visited on a people well yeah to some extent the notion that that
57:14
or all anti-semitism springs from that is is itself anti-semitic because it diminishes a
57:20
centuries old racism to something that's just existed for the last sort of 70 years so
57:28
taric alley for example who is a activist in 2019 where there was also an incursion into
57:35
Gaza by Israel there was a march in London and taric alley stood up and said that if the
57:43
occupation stopped anti-semitism would end and I don't know if he knows but before the state of
57:50
Israel was formed there was quite a big global anti-semitic incident and it's incredibly at some
57:58
level sort of like disrespectful to to Jews the notion that you know oh yeah there's this one thing
58:05
that that has led to all this anti-semitism and everything else would be fine. It's not just
58:09
just just verbal to Jews it's just verbal anti-semit I mean let's give them the credibility of their
58:14
own convictions you know they've been they've been on this bandwagon for millennia they're not
58:18
Johnny come ladies to this particular fact you're absolutely right it's really unfair
58:24
to the inquisition exactly that's right they've been on to this they've been on this bandwagon for a
58:30
long time I mean I mean every day I have to say every day there is a new thing like I was just reading
58:37
a review of a book about the Bolsheviks that was in the Sunday Times and the British apparently
58:48
were helping whatever part of the Russians during the Russian Civil War after the Bolsheviks were
58:53
how they were they were trying to suppress the Bolsheviks right and it became that they decided
58:58
well the Bolsheviks are kind of similar to the Jews quite a lot of Jews of Bolsheviks and they just
59:02
killed thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of Jews right and Churchill and other people
59:08
were totally behind it right in fact in fact there's a quote in the book saying well the Jews were
59:12
kind of responsible for the Russian Revolution so you know so they can expect this and whatever
59:18
and so my point is that really I probably if you go and look at the history the idea that anti-semitism
59:25
is just about Israel is not true I don't disagree that a lot of modern anti-semitism is wrapped up
59:34
in Israel it certainly still burgeons out if you actually read like not that you should but some
59:41
of the really viral anti-semitism online it might start we're talking about Zionists the next thing
59:45
you know it'll be about how they control you know all the banks in America and whatever else it might
59:50
be someone said to me the other day and maybe this is true the anti-semitism in the Muslim community
59:58
is very very centered around Israel and if that problem was somehow sorted out that there would be
1:00:02
less of that I wonder if that is true that might be true then the idea that the sort of global
1:00:09
what essentially mainly white to Christian anti-semitism would would not go away but maybe we go more
1:00:15
I found just on my pubasing based on nothing but I own anger and that smells actually
1:00:20
counterintuitive to me I mean I think the Muslim anti-semitism has an extremely long history and Jews
1:00:28
being peace and sons of goats and things goes back to law before Israel's to me if anything it would
1:00:34
be the reverse that that in that you wouldn't see the same level of kind of Jew hate among white
1:00:41
progressives on university campuses in the west if it weren't for Israel because there it's not
1:00:48
in eight you are certainly unique to the culture I mean without that that's obviously the touch
1:00:53
paper for it I I mean I don't wish to be depressive but as I say that the loop of history would
1:01:01
suggest that people will find ways to be anti-semitic whatever the geosituation well because
1:01:09
they have done empirically is the truth throughout history we're from like what's the mechanism
1:01:15
by which that's emerging emerges from a conjunction of the far right the continual far right
1:01:26
myths the Jews are in control of money and the media and all the rest of it and a sort of far
1:01:33
left acquiescent or a left wing progressive acquiescence with that possibility and also with
1:01:39
the assumption that anti-semitism doesn't really matter exacerbated by Israel I mean enormously
1:01:45
exacerbated often by Israel I mean it turns out like seeing those two things together I'm in a film
1:01:52
at the moment like I'm doing a voice in a film an animated film called My Father's Secrets
1:01:58
which is a sweet film if ever comes to Australia you know go and see it it's a film it's by
1:02:03
from a graphic novel and it's about a guy in Belgium in the 1672 discoveries dad having not
1:02:08
realized it before was a holocaust survivor blah it's a very sweet little film anyway I went on
1:02:14
sky news to talk about it just before it came out a couple of weeks ago and they asked me about
1:02:21
the present situation and I didn't talk about Gaza I didn't even talk about the marches in London
1:02:26
I literally just said yeah well the the Jewish community are living in a quite heightened state of
1:02:31
dread and anxiety at the moment anti-semitism's kind of gone through the roof I mean it is like
1:02:35
ridiculous it's like 1200 percent more incidents of anti-semitism in Britain than normal
1:02:42
and you know people are trying to go into central London and whatever and I just really
1:02:47
talked about vulnerability you know about Jews feeling vulnerable and all of us living with a
1:02:52
kind of race deja vu about difficult bad times and whatever I'm placing that vulnerability
1:03:00
public me you might think well people might be sympathetic just it just led to incredible hate
1:03:05
I mean incredible hate online most of it being about Gaza most of it being how dare David
1:03:15
you know claim the Jewish community is suffering in any way at the moment when people are being
1:03:19
bombed in Gaza which I didn't compare at all but I think it's also this sense that no other
1:03:27
as far as I can make out no other calling or not even calling out here no other sort of just talking
1:03:33
about your sort of insecurity and the ways in which your ethnic identity might be under threat
1:03:40
or whatever gets the same fury it gets an incredible fury Jews talking about that
1:03:49
that notion of you know listening to a minority who are identifying their minority experience
1:03:56
it doesn't just not apply to Jews it leads to extreme anger with Jews it's so tricky for me because
1:04:04
I see I understand that that complaint rhymes with a hysterical persecution complex that you
1:04:13
sometimes see from the most reactionary forces in Israel like I saw it live some years ago of
1:04:20
these Jewish these aggressive right wing settlers who are going in and like burning down Palestinians
1:04:26
fields in the West Bank and make life intolerable for Palestinians and settling illegally on
1:04:33
beyond land that isn't Israel's and they're screaming at the camera how never again never again like
1:04:40
you know our grand like my grandparents and great-grandparents were persecuted but we're not going
1:04:44
to let it happen again we're not going to let them do it to us I'm like who's the aggressive
1:04:50
that's not well that's not putting their vulnerability really on show I don't think that's that's
1:04:56
just aggressive I mean I guess it's passive aggressive at some level but it's still you know it
1:05:02
seems to me well for again like it seems to be like I am not beholden if someone asks me a question
1:05:09
on TV about what is what does it like being Jewish in Britain at the moment to make it clear that
1:05:14
I have to disengage something I say about feeling vulnerable from what a settlement might say
1:05:19
to claim that they're incredibly violent and aggressive behavior is like inspired by a feeling
1:05:25
of not feeling saying right and certainly no other minority would be expected to do so I mean
1:05:30
you wouldn't if you were talking about is that you know there's a Jewish school a lot one of many
1:05:37
Jewish schools that was advising its kids not to wear the blazer at this time because it's got a
1:05:44
star of David on it I went to a Jewish primary school which had a star of David on it and I remember
1:05:49
people from the national front who were right wing you know shouting yidza us when we were kids
1:05:56
but that doesn't seem as bad as being told you should not wear it at all because you might get
1:06:00
attacked on the street and just putting that on the table as a like this is quite upsetting and
1:06:06
frightening or whatever should not get people saying how dare you how dare you talk about that
1:06:12
unless there's a weird space in which it feels like this is not quite a legitimate thing to talk
1:06:18
about that's true and if you again transposar to any other community I mean if people were
1:06:23
you know if if if Indians or Pakistanis were being subjected to racist hostility then
1:06:30
they're describing that wouldn't lead to someone saying but what about all the things that your
1:06:35
community back in South Asia is doing to oppress other people they're doing it now I'm sorry I mean
1:06:42
you know that you get accused of what aboutery for saying this but I'll say it Pakistan is just
1:06:48
mass deported 200,000 to 120,000 Afghan Muslims just sent them out of the country just mass
1:06:55
there's mass deportations of Muslims Afghan Muslims from Pakistan going on at the moment
1:07:02
you know what same thing in a way is happening you know in Israel obviously under different
1:07:06
circumstances but the mass dislocation of a Muslim community is happening literally no one really
1:07:13
knows about it very much and certainly there are no marches about it and whatever so you know one
1:07:19
of the things that sometimes seems to be the case I believe Sasha Baron Cohen once said to me
1:07:23
he's much more militant than I am about Israel but he once said to me that you know people but
1:07:30
which he kind of meant white people white progressives are only really worried when Jews are killing
1:07:36
brown people they never care about brown people killing brown people and or you know discriminating
1:07:42
against brown people and that there is some truth in that because again this binary of good and
1:07:47
bad I think the white progressive looks on say the Chinese imprisoning a million Uighurs in camps
1:07:55
for re-education and sterilizing women and disappearing large amounts of men and thinks well they're
1:08:02
both people of color so it's not really up to us to say anything about that which is weird when
1:08:09
as far as I'm concerned Israelis are people of color you know I look at them and they don't seem
1:08:13
anything like me to be honest they don't they just seem like you know people in this Middle East
1:08:22
and foreign land much more macho than me you know having their very angry stuff that they're doing
1:08:29
it's like you know and so but the imposition of whiteness is very strong David I want to talk
1:08:38
briefly about punching up and punching down but I want to do so for our premium subscribers
1:08:43
so too to listen to the free podcast thanks so much for listening you can get the free
1:08:49
word subscription and uncomfortable conversations so we need to line the free yes do you want to say
1:08:53
goodbye to them do you want to say goodbye to them bye bye poor people he's not about about this I
1:09:00
hope you've enjoyed it so far we'll learn enough money soon to pay for the premium
1:09:05
you all the Jews who are still listening because they're wealthy they've got enough money to pay
1:09:11
but they're also miserly so they're probably not paying uh that's true yeah so that's a good point
1:09:16
so wrestling with the is the concept of punching up and punching down useful
1:09:23
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