Latest / Fire Engineering Podcast / Assessment Centers and the Proper Promotional Test Mindset
Transcript
- Nat Kapustin: The command show is supported by Tablet Command, built by firefighters to deliver accountability, situational awareness, and clarity on every call. Take command with tablet command at tabletcommand.com. Welcome everybody to the command show. I am Anthony Castros. My normal co host, Brian Brush could not be here. He's out on an assignment. Halfway around the world doing things. He's actually down in Florida, helping Chief Ike with recovery from the weather they just had there recently so he's being a good man, a good Samaritan. However, I do have somebody phenomenal here to talk with us today. None other than Jose Arriza, district chief, Tulsa Oklahoma Fire Department. Chief, we've been friends now quite a while. before we dive into our show, I want to just do what we normally do, a couple things. Housekeeping, just a shout out to fire engineering, David Rhodes Diane Rothschild and the team there, Kyle, Nat, everybody who helps us make this happen, and all the all the podcasts from Fire Engineering happen. Also, our main sponsor, Tablet Command. The command show is supported by Tablet Command. We wouldn't be here without them. Built by firefighters to deliver accountability, situation, awareness, and clarity on every call. Take command with it. Tablet Command at tablet demand tabletcommand.com. A little more on them. tablet command. was started by Will Pigeon and Andy Boto about the same time we started doing our Calm the Chaos curriculum and getting it out to the world. both of us were both of these enterprises were born out of out of the ashes of of really bad calls. they had a double fatal fire where two of their colleagues were killed in a fire in a house fire, a small house fire. About the same time I had the triple fatal fire over the two kids and their dad These both happened around two thousand six and that's what kind of got us all on the path. So I've been on a on a the same road, parallel path with Tabit Command that whole time and really happy to see what they're doing. They're doing good things, they support us, we support them. So without further ado, I cannot wait to talk to you about our guest. He's not really a guest, he's family. Jose Arisa, district chief with Tulsa, Oklahoma Fire Department. We what year did we meet, Chief? We met on an assessment center class. So I believe twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, sir. Yep. So pre COVID. Yes, sir. And you came all the way out from Oklahoma to California with one of your colleagues or two? Just one. And you guys came out for an assessment center course. It's our our class mastering the Fire Service Assessment Center. booked by a fire engineering online class at Trained Firefighters dot com. And I was struck by your professionalism. Obviously I'd been drinking or smoking a big fat one 'cause you've you snowed me, buddy. Now that I've gotten to know you, I know you're just you're just a bum. Just a bum. No. Chief Areza really that time Captain Areza really impressed me with his professionalism. it wasn't an act. He wasn't trying to impress anybody, it's just who he is. And I I offered him a job. I said sh I said, you're gonna be a fire chief or a chief officer soon. when you make district chief, which for those of you at home, that's the d equivalent of a battalion chief. Tulsa, please come and work with us. You would be an amazing addition to our team. And sure enough he did, and here we are. And you just got off the bus from going down to Tuscaloosa and teaching a one of our command classes for those folks. Yes, sir. How'd that go? So it was really good. funny story and speaking with their chief of training, Chief Sonnet, he said that they told me Which I'd never heard before, that Alabama and Oklahoma are very, very similar. and being an Oklahoma kid, I kind of doubted that. But after walking around their neighborhood Walmart for about ten minutes, it is very true that Oklahoma and Alabama are very closely aligned. So they made me feel at home. they did have to rub in my face a little bit how good the tide is doing, how poor the Sooners are doing. But it was a great experience. had some great buy-in from some seasoned officers down there. They were able to contribute. So we were very, very fortunate to have a great group on this in Tuscarusa. I heard that. I heard nothing but great things. I spoke to the fire chief afterwards. he was thrilled. the training chief, Chief Sadith was thrilled. Godwin will be going back there doing some more training with them in the years to come. you know, I think w speaking of training in assessment centers, you Tulsa have got a lieutenant's exam coming up in the how when's that gonna be, Chief? So we're looking at spring to summer. The unique thing about this for us is traditionally we've had a strictly written test for the position of lieutenant. and through the research and the trends around the country we've identified the need for an assessment center on our lieutenant's exam, which is is far behind. We we've needed it for a while because as you know, Chief, when we put these young men and women up in that press seat, they're acting officers, so they're gonna be charged with any of the complications that a regular captain would have riding out. So We needed a way to identify their strengths and weaknesses and better prepare them for that position of leadership. So we have added the component of an assessment center to our upcoming lieutenants exam. I'm glad to hear that because assessment centers are far more sophisticated than a simple interview, certainly a simple written test. While those are important, the assessment center really puts you in the day in the day in the life of in this case, Lieutenant for Tulsa. So what I'd like to do maybe on this show today, Chief, is kind of talk about officer development more than we usually do on this show. We talk about command obviously all the time. But let's talk about command when it comes to officer development. What does it take to make good officers? Tulsa is using the assessment center process for the first time. This is a process that's been around for for decades and different departments have have have used it for maybe one or two Tests, others for like I said, twenty, thirty years. my first assessment center process was back in nineteen ninety three, so twenty three or thirty three years ago. they've been around a while. Absolutely. When you when you came out to California, you took that class with us, what were your takeaways? What kinda got you ready? 'Cause you obviously we're successful. but what were your takeaways from that week that made you say, you know what, I'm this is what I need to do to be an officer? Well I'm gonna steal a phrase that's often used but Made famous Trey Nelms, one of our friends, and his phrase is I drank the Kool-Aid. And one of the things that that you said starting the class that really resonated with me is we're not preparing for the assessment center, we're preparing for the position. And to this day, you know, half a decade later, I sat down with a young man last night who's never opened a book on assessments. And I said, Look, we're not preparing for just an assessment center, you're preparing for the position. So as we go through things and we learn different ways to process things, I I would like you to look at through the lens of preparing for the position. So that's the biggest takeaway is yes, it's a crash course, there's a lot of information, but at the end of the day we want you to be successful officer that makes good choices for your people. Exactly. And that's I think that's one of the two pillars that we teach at least and what I think are vital to success is be the officer, be the officer that that you're that you want to be and that you're going for. if you if you're a a l lieutenant and you're going for captain, don't walk in as a lieutenant, walk in as a captain. If you're a firefighter currently and you're going for lieutenant, do not walk in as a firefighter. Walk in as that lieutenant. You're already there. Right. And that's not because you heard that once on a podcast or read it once in a book. It's because you are practicing it, you're living it, you're doing the sets and reps, you're doing the acting work, if you have a mentor or mentors and you're putting yourself in that position and leading into the position itself, not just the test. And too all too often our firefighters are obsessed with the test because it's comp competition. I don't want to look bad. I want to look bad in front of my friends. I've got this reputation I need to uphold. And they obsess about the test instead of the job. That's probably the f that's probably hand in hand with the second thing, which is check your bags at the door. And I know we've talked about that a lot. Checking your baggage at the door. Wha how how did that help you and and and what are you telling the folks that are getting ready now? What does that mean for you and for them? Well, Chief, I know you and a lot of the the folks listening have heard the phrase, I just don't feel like I'm ready yet. And they'll postpone taking a promotional exam, because unfortunately I think some people think there's gonna be this magic switch that hits and you're just now I'm ready to be an officer. Right. we've all made mistakes. all of us have had calls and made decisions where you think, well, I can learn from that. But that's the point. You learn from it, you drop that baggage, you drop some of the poor things you learned earlier in your career because I tell my folks, every time out of the door you're learning. I hope you learn that's a great thing. I'm gonna use it from now on. Yeah. And at times there may be a time where you say, Well, that sucked. I would never use that. but dropping that that baggage and and that some of that emotional weight that's on you, going in, learning to be professional, embracing the role, I think that's invaluable for our young men and women that are still aspiring to leadership positions. Absolutely. And and here's the thing, right? We all have baggage, right? Chief, we all have baggage. Absolutely. It's not it's not just test takers. It's not just B shift. It's not just it's not just new folks. Every person on the planet Earth has baggage. You have it, I have it. Everyone we know has baggage. Baggage is nothing more than the weight of life. It's it's just the stuff that we carry around with us that weighs us down. It could be being nervous. Could be maybe I took the test once, twice, three times. And I didn't get on the list or I didn't get high enough to get promoted. That's baggage. Maybe I'm going through a tough spot with my in my marriage. Maybe my kids are acting up. Maybe heaven forbid we've got a health issue in the family right now with somebody. Maybe it was a call I went on last week. Maybe I'm pissed off with the fire department 'cause I'm in the middle of a grievance while I'm trying to take this promotional test. There's a million sources for baggage. And in our classes we always talk about the the quadrant of baggage, right? There's the personal and professional and then there's the acute and chronic. And the personal is everything we talked about that that goes on at home. And that could be spouse, kids. It could even be childhood. You know, you maybe you were bullied as a kid. Maybe you had parents that were alcoholics, heaven forbid. So that's personal. And but those break into two categories, acute or chronic. Acute's the last year of your life. What's this last year been like? Did you go on a bad call six months ago? Did the promotional test come out nine months ago and you weren't on it? And then there's chronic. That's the stuff from childhood or even more than two years ago. Maybe you've taken three tests, like I mentioned, and this is your fourth one. That's chronic, professional. personal would be chronic, personal would be the child abuse thing. And so those four quadrants kind of help us decide is it worker related or is it home? And is it recent or is it long term? whatever it is, you gotta learn how to check it. And we don't say eliminate it or remove it, because some baggage you're gonna carry your whole life, unfortunately. But can you manage it? what do you think is the most common baggage for today's firefighters that are going for a test? Is it like you said, that they don't feel they're ready? Is it they don't feel worthy? Is it they're afraid that they'll be judged? What do you think is the biggest thing in today's folks that are aspiring to officer positions? Well, as as you know, from your decades in the fire service, we have our service attracts a certain type of individual and and generally speaking that's a hard charger and an alpha, things like that. And many times that that goes hand in hand with being afraid to fail. they're they are a absolute door kicker beast on the back of the truck. And so there's a little hesitancy to am I ready to take on that next position? What if I don't do well? Right. you know, I haven't seen all the different scenarios. I've never made the big one. never sat in a command seat. So There are a lot of things I think can be intimidating for a young officer and that's why we try to instill in them that, get the training, embrace the role, and go ahead and make the leap because if you wait for the perfect time, you're gonna be waiting forever. Wait forever. You'll never feel a hundred percent ready. I felt as a BC, even in my last shift, I felt like I could always learn more. There's always more to learn. I I got I was blessed to be a battalion chief for my last thirteen years of my career on the floor, same shift. same same battalion and I always was looking to to learn more. We I think we drilled my last week we had a multi company drill. and that's that's the that's the the nectar of life for us is training. And so if you think you're there, you're not. And if you think you're there you're probably a little arrogant, a little ignorant, deadly combination. So don't ever think you've figured it all out. And the process itself can be an obstacle. How many how many folks have you known, Chief, over the years who would be a great officer, but they just can't take a test, right? count. The assessment center, let's dive into that because it's not just a written exam. It's not just an interview. It is a day in the life. And a lot of people don't know even how to prepare for that. So let's talk about what is an assessment center for people so they know what what the heck they're even getting into. Right. So with the vendors that we use with Tulsifier, we're gonna have several different scenarios. that will be will be assessed on. We can have an in basket, which is simulating you've been away from work for two weeks or so. You come in and you have a laundry list of things that you need to address. How do you address them? What is your plan? how do you coordinate those things? We also will run a tactical evolution so we can see how well you're gonna manage fire companies on an actual fire scene. So that's always a big stressful one for folks to sit in that command seat deploying resources. We generally will have a one on one scenario where one of your crewmates is having some type of issue, there's something in the house that you need to deal with. We want to see that you have the emotional maturity to deal with some of those issues that may arise in the leadership position. and then we can do a presentation, which is gonna address your public speaking skills and your knowledge of different subjects. So those metrics we use to see how well you've prepared for the position. Right. And again, it's about the position, not the test. Exactly. And I think The test is what makes people nervous. The job does not make people nervous. I always say, you know, if if if a lot of folks are doing acting officer work, they're sitting in the seat from time to time. And I say, Are you nervous? Well, no, not really. I'm pretty comfortable though. Yeah, exactly. Because th that's your natural habitat and you've been preparing for that. And the test with the scores and the evaluations and the time and all this stuff makes people nervous. And we only take that test mindset out of it and say, No, no, no. You are the lieutenant that day. You are the captain, you the battalion chief that day. Whatever rank you walk in as mentally is what you'll walk out as. And so walk in as that lieutenant. Introduce yourself. I always teach introduce yourself as Lieutenant so and so. unless they tell you not to. I was taking my battalion chief exam in 2004, and they said, Well, you can't you can't use your name. You can't you can't say I'm I'm Anthony Castros I'm Chief Castro's. So they covered our we were all in our class A's and they covered our name tags with Avery labels and my number was seven. I was candidate number seven and I walked in and I said, Hi, I'm Battalion Chief Number Seven. Nice to meet ya. Right. And ironically that became my battalion for thirteen years was battalion seven. And they mu they smiled because they knew I was playing by the rules, but I was still doing it my way. And I was saying look, I'm I'm a chief right now. I'm not a candidate, I'm not a captain, I'm a chief, I'm gonna run this scenario and I think If you check your baggage and you walk with that right mindset, you will you'll get that job because you are the officer that day. That's the difference between an assessment center and an interview or even a written is you you're not describing it or answering questions. You are the officer. So you mentioned the in basket. Right. We're evaluating your decision making ability, your knowledge of policy, your knowledge of protocol and and core values and procedures and forms and all that kind of stuff. And we're not asking you if you know this stuff, we're seeing if you know this stuff. You I I I was asked by John Mittendorf many years ago, Hey, what's the difference between an assessment center and an interview? 'Cause he was the guru of interviews. John Mittendorf was a legendary battalion chief from LA City, legendary truck guru, wrote the book, but he was also an interview guy for promotion and he said he goes, What's the difference? 'Cause he he had left LA City before they did their first assessment center. I said, Well chief, I said, you know, in an interview can say I can bench three hundred pounds five times. That's an interview. An assessment center has a bench with three hundred pounds and says show us. Sure. And that's the difference. So you you can't hide in an assessment center. And I think one of the things that I would like to bring up and and talk with you about, Chief, is you've been an assessor, you've been on the other side of the table and seen so many students. A as a person who's been an assessor, you can smell fake. yeah. so when they sit down and they want to use ten dollar words on a three dollar budget. and they wanna say things that they've heard on a podcast and they wanna implement it into their system. And it's great. I'm all for, you know, learning everywhere and taking advantage of of all the information you can. Yeah. And it needs to fit in your system and you need to be true to yourself. Yeah. And so when we start working with these young men and young women, we tell them don't do it like I do it. You know, learn what's the correct way to do it. You know, take care of your people, take care of the situation. But you need to be yourself. Absolutely. Because as a assessor sitting across the table Seeing someone struggles through through something that is obviously uncomfortable that is not them, they're wearing somebody else's shoes, if you will, is frustrating for me because I'm I just think oftentimes, you know, if you'd be yourself and handle the issue, you'd probably score so much better. Exactly. And be a much better officer, obviously. No, it that's I'm so glad you brought that up. It's be yourself. Be yourself. Just be the best version of yourself you can. Be be v equipped with knowledge, skills and abilities. for the job. Don't just walk in, give it a shot, see what happens. That's that's not your best self. but to your point, don't come in with BS slogans and tricks and all this garbage that you might learn somewhere. and like I love using ten dollar words on a three dollar budget. You know, your three dollar budget is you in your intellect. The ten dollar words are words you're using, you don't even know they mean 'cause they sounded cool. Or you learned it in some class or something. Absolutely. Speaking of KSAs, that stands for knowledge, skills and abilities. The KSAs are the engine that drive the assessment center. It's it's what says, okay, what knowledge, skills, and abilities does a lieutenant for Tulsa, Oklahoma Fire Department have to have to be successful? Okay, decision making, knowledge of policy, knowledge of the incident command system. Let's just talk about the the leadership dimension. Because within within the KSAs, there's three dimensions or groupings. There's leadership, there's management, and there's emergency operations. So if if we're looking at a a scenario like the in basket you mentioned, the KSAs are going be both management and and leadership. So management might be time management, knowledge of policy, knowledge of protocol, knowledge of the forms, and leadership might be ability to delegate, ability to make decisions in a rapid fashion, ability to empower other people. And so we're not asking if you have these things, we're seeing if you have these things. It's again we're bent seeing if you can make the bench. Right. And it sounds like that Tulsa's got a really good array of exercises coming up. 'cause you are handling management and leadership with the in basket. You're handling leadership with the presentation and the and the coaching counseling. and you're handling emergency operations with it with the simulation. That's great to hear. That's what I would call more of a traditional conventional assessment center. 'Cause you're you're covering an array of of options. Do you know if your if your folks are gonna be recorded on camera alone or they gonna have assessors interacting and people evaluating them live? Traditionally we bring in live assessors. we'll have a panel of three generally. and we have depending on which which promotional exam we're going for, we'll have three to four rooms of assessors going at the same time. Obviously for lieutenants we'll have somewhere between seventy and a hundred candidates buying for twenty five spots on a list. so obviously that'll mean we'll have more assessors there handling that many people. Yeah. so yeah, yeah, we do it we do it live, you get to look the actor in the eye on your one on ones and that can be fun, it adds to some other people's stress level, but it's a it's a pretty good pretty good barometer how well you're doing actually. It is. You get you get feedback that they don't tell you how you're doing 'cause they can't, but you can see them shifting their seat, a little smile here, a little nod there, and it's like, okay, I'm I'm on track here. I think the hard part for a lot of firefighters is that's the make believe. It's like look This is not make believe. If I'm sitting across from you and I'm being assessed and this is our coaching counseling exercise and you're my engineer, you're not Chief Ariza. You're not a a a role player. You're not a evaluator. You are my engineer. Engineer engineer Jose Areza. And I'm gonna treat you as such and I'm your captain. I'm gonna act as such. And that's that is the secret sauce. That's right there is the difference. Now whether you can back it up or not is is That's the KSA's. But going in with that mindset and going, okay, and and and here's where the baggage comes in. What if the what if the role player is somebody that you know doesn't like you? Right? Maybe, you know, you had a run in five years ago, two two days ago, whatever, that's baggage. You cannot you have to check that right now. Because that person is there, they're being a professional. You can't say, he doesn't like me, so I'm gonna freak out. Well, I think that's where it's invaluable to practice the way you play. So as a as a district chief, when We go out and do company led drills. Make it your own. Be that person. Take on that role. Do exactly what it's gonna be. I don't wanna make it too make believe, too pie in the sky. Let's just see where the rubber meets the road and how you handle business. And I encourage that. And for those of you that are listening and and do company led training, empower your folks. Let them take charge. Let them make mistakes and they're gonna learn from them. That's fine. You know, obviously we don't wanna get anybody hurt, but we also wanna give them the latitude to grow. Exactly. So I think that that type of training fosters that sincere growth that will shine through at promotion time. Exactly. And it's better to struggle in practicing at the fire station with your crew, saying during role plays or doing ambassadors or doing simulations, than it is to do it for the first time when you're when you're under the gun. get comfortable with it. And like I tell people, there there's a defensive posture or an offensive posture. When you go into the assessment center, A defensive potra is, man, I hope I do well. I hope I tell what they want to hear. I hope I score right. I hope I hope they like what I'm saying. That's totally defensive and you will drive yourself crazy and you will not be a leader. You will not lean into it and have command presence. That's not an officer. An offensive potras, here's what I'm doing, here's my message, this is how I'm doing this. If you don't like it, fine, don't promote me. Not arrogant, but just confident in your decision making. And Because like you said, Chief, it's them doing the sets and the reps with their crew or mentors or in classes or what have you to get comfortable doing it. You cannot get comfortable doing something by just talking about it, reading about it, watching somebody else do it. Those are important parts. But until you do it yourself, whether it's a sport or a simulation or a role play, you're not gonna get good at it and therefore you won't be comfortable. comfortable enough to say hi I'm I'm captain or lieutenant in this case Anthony Castros, Tulsa Fire Department. Nice to meet you. okay, here's your here's your senior firefighter. He's been late for the third time. You need to have a talk with him. Okay, let's go. And just have that bring it on. I've got I've got problems to solve. I'm solving problems today. Instead of, I gotta take this test. I hope I'm doing well. I hope I score well. How many openings are on the test? How many openings in this list? How many how many guys are gonna make the list? How many guys are taking the test? That's just the wrong mindset. Yeah. So good. I'm glad that I know this is a passion of yours is developing officers. You've been phenomenal at it. I saw that in you, you know, six years ago plus when we first met. You you took your time and and money to come all the way out to California from Oklahoma, to invest in your fru in your future and in essentially in the organization. Because you're like I'm gonna give back as a district chief and you have done that and then some. You have you've been a mentor, you've brought on a lot of programs and training to your people, to the organization. And now facing an assessment center, I'm sure you have your phone is bl ringing off the hook. Chief, can you help me, Chief? my God, what's an assessment center? Can you help me? I'm so scared. What do I do? And that's they're fortunate and blessed to have you. So when you get those phone calls, how do you approach it? I mean do you just say, Yeah, well, get get in line or do you just say, you what, I can't help you 'cause I'm part of the process or do you what what do you I think I know what you do, but what for the s the people listening, what do you what do you do? Chief, I've been so blessed with so many people that have poured into me and and taken their time to put their arm around me and and tell me something. And so generally when I get that call, you know, because we work at twenty four forty eight, so I just try to coordinate with them. if they want to come to my house, you know, I have a s area we can set up. They want to come to the station wherever they're comfortable at. But I try to never say no. as long as we can make a a time to work for both of us, even if that has to be a phone call to answer questions. because just a really quick interlude. I was that young captain that was pretty cocky and thought I knew everything and as the as the discussion progressed, I was like, Well that guy's a idiot, that guy's not smart. And about the third time I did that, one of my favorite people in the world put his arm around me and he said, Who'd you grow up around? And I gave him a couple of names of people that I was able to work around. He goes, most people who do a whole career never get that one of those guys. You got all of them. So instead of calling everybody else stupid, why don't you put your armor on them and teach something? Wow. So that was the charge for me, and that was a a pivotal moment of my career where it's like, you know, maybe they haven't had somebody to tell them we're gonna make a three sixty or we're gonna identify the rescue profile out of the gate. Maybe that's four language to them. So rather than judging them, let's try to share. So I I generally try to accommodate everyone that calls for some assistance with that. That's wonderful. You know, that that kind of leads me into my next My next topic, we talked about right over your head there, it says Tulsa Fire, faith of family. And you know, you and I are both men of faith. we consider our co workers our family. and it's really important and I think people need to understand that when you when you decide to become a lieutenant or a captain, you are the parent of that crew. And that doesn't mean that they're children or that they are beneath you in stature or you're smarter than them. It means you you now have been given an incredible responsibility. The welfare of those that crew is in your hands. The buck stops with you. Whether they come home or not, or they come home safely and mentally, physically, emotionally safe and whole and well trained. That's a huge responsibility. And I think we're blessed to you and I to have a passion for that and to be given this tremendous opportunity. To do that, whether it's in your department like you're doing or you're doing nationally when you teach with us. when did you know you wanted to teach? When did you feel that call that God said, Hey, I want you to help other people? I want you it's not just about you. And I mean it might have been this conversation you just mentioned, or it may have been something else after that. When did you realize, hey, I need to I need to give back and and and grow other people? Well, I identified early I would I wanted to be a Tulsa firefighter and I stopped by my neighborhood fire station And they offered me a glass of tea or water and sat me down and told me how great it was. And I was ready to sign up that day. And at that time, Tulsa wouldn't hire you until you turned twenty-one. And I was the ripe old age of eighteen. So I had to do something to better myself in the interim. So I joined the United States Navy. that's right. Yep. And during my first deployment, I was a damage controlman who was ultimately responsible for teaching the crew shipboard firefighting. And my work center supervisor identified in me the passion to teach and he put me up in front of the whole ship at various times and it just ignited a passion to see those light bulbs coming on when you share something of value to others. Yeah. So I've been doing it since the early nineties on board the USS Peleloop. that's freaking beautiful. And that's I I'm glad you mentioned your service 'cause I wanted to thank you publicly for your Navy service. it's clearly and you told me in privately how much that kind of forged the direction of of your life. Absolutely. that servant's heart that you still have. And how great is it to be able to to lead now, lead leaders, you know. Back then you were an eighteen year old kid teaching some stuff and now you're leading leaders. And I think for those of us who are chiefs, who are battalion chiefs or district chiefs, you're looking at down the barrel of that, you want to take that step. It's really important to realize leading leaders is different than leading doers. Right. Leading a crew is much different than leading a battalion or a district. Very much. where you're leading other leaders, right? So Chief, what are some insights you've had in your time in that spot? I think one of the things that I identified early in my role as a chief officer is your door kickers, your meat eaters, your all of the acronyms or pet names that you want to give but the the truly good fire captains. we have to separate Doing and empowering others to do. we have a lot of captains that are awesome firefighters. So so at times as a chief officer, I have to remind them, Hey, you know how to do that. Somebody taught you. Let's empower the crew. Let the lieutenant do this today. Empower the firefighter to hold some training. because doers do. And it's very frustrating for somebody with that personality type to sit back and watch somebody else work. Right. And it's not laziness, it's empowering the next generation. Right. And so it's a fine line we walk for sure, because we don't want to say do my job for me. but at the same time we also want to expose them to some higher roles and responsibilities to say, here's an opportunity for you to do something above your pay grade. let's prepare you for the next step. And when you identify those folks on your truck, I tell my captains, if you have a hard charger on your truck that you think this is a a natural born leader, empower them. Let them ride up in the front seat, let them make some radio calls. give them that opportunity and feed that passion. And you probably learn that a lot of the Navy, right? Teach learn the job of the person above you, teachers of the person below you, right? Absolutely, yes sir. Yeah. And so that's that for those of you who are looking to be chief officers, that's so critical that you're cultivating other leaders all the time around you and and it's important to realize that it's not just about tasks anymore. It's about developing leaders, developing relationships and trust. Because those pay off in the battlefield, in the fire ground. When you start to to delegate and and and create and assign perhaps division or group supervisors. You have to trust that they're gonna run the back of the building for you. They're gonna run Charlie or Roof or Bravo or or Division Three or Four. That doesn't happen overnight. It happens over time and training which builds the trust. And and but it always stems from what you said, Chief, of of having that heart for not just a service but for develop and not just leading, but developing other leaders. That's that's like the highest level is developing other leaders. And I know you're passionate about that. I know the folks that work with that they're blessed to have you as a resource in Tulsa. I know the fire service at at large, when you go and teach our classes around the nation, they're they are thankful for you. Tulsa or I'm sorry, Tuscaloosa couldn't say enough about you. you did a phenomenal job with your team out there. The five day com the cast train the trainer. hands on, the whole Mary Ann, you did a phenomenal job there. Let's talk about incident command just a little bit. Specifically, I know you showed a video of a significant incident you guys had in Tulsa. I know you guys, while a a large agency, you're very close knit. You're a tight bunch. Yes, sir. again, faith faith and family, right? Absolutely. Tell us a little bit about that incident, lessons learned, and then, you know, how you kind of chose to pr try to open with that in your class in Tuscaloosa. So for those of you who have never been to one of our classes, you know, we we'll start off with the standard fair of introductions. Here's who I am. This is I came to the company, things like that. but recently in the last within the last month, we had a Mayday situation in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And as it happened, there were several videographers there. They were able to obtain the audio and splice that into their videos. So we had a very dynamic representation of what happened. We were able to see the fire progressing, we heard the distress radio calls. from a young lieutenant inside of a structure screaming it's getting hot. so to say the least, it's an attention given. And so what I decided to do is this last class in Tuscaloosa is use that footage and open with that and just let it play its entirety. let it sit in and then once the video concluded, I turn to the class who's all either aspiring or current leaders and say, Is this the time you want to try figuring out how to run this incident? Or what to do in the case if something goes bad. Of course not. You want to be prepared. You want to have your folks ready and be as as prepared as you can be. So it drives home the fact that although we do this every day, it it is a very dangerous job and things can happen. So let's prepare ourselves to the to the best of our ability. So we we had a lot of comments. It sparked a lot of good conversation and consequently, that battalion chief or district chief. My counterpart on SQL Tune. They had their post incident analysis. They identified some things and I was very proud to be a member of the organization because we identified some things we could do better. It wasn't as some of our slides say, well, the fire eventually went out. That's not good enough. Exactly. We identified some room for growth, and some things that went out job wide. They shared it job wide, which is new for us. Generally we're we have fifteen different fire departments because we have three ships and five different districts. Yep. That's like ours. Yep. But we made the decision at command to their credit. the administration made the decision that we were gonna have a post inc incident analysis and we were gonna share the lessons learned with the rest of the job. And I think that was a huge step in the right direction. Huge step. Huge step. What would you say was the biggest lesson learned if just it jumps out from that whole AAR? I think two things. the the counterpart that ran the the incident. again, he's Charlie Charlie Platoon, district one chief. And I called him after listening to it and I said, Hey man, great job. And his comment to me was, Man, I felt like I messed up, you know, and he he was kinda beating himself up, as anyone would in that situation. But I just wanted to remind him, man, you kept your calm, you kept the incident moving and ultimately you deployed the resources, rapid intervention to go in and get those individuals out. So that's a win in anybody's book. Yeah. So the ability to maintain your calm, to rely on your training, and have a plan in place when things do go wrong, isn't viable. because we have the ability to fight some fire at times and majority of those fires we pull a inch and three quarter pre connect, we want muscle memory. We had a large warehouse with a lot of fire showing and we pulled a pre connect. And one of the things we discussed later was, you know, big fire, big building, let's pull big water. so just reevaluating our tactics and how we're going to handle those things. And because it's my district just a different shift, yeah, that's something I spoke with my company officers about. Yeah. we held training in the next week, simulating a diesel mechanic shop on fire. So just we could get into that habit of what do we do with a larger building with a lot of fire. And I and I think that's critical and I commend your department for doing that. you know This circle back to where we started about the process for promotion. You know, you showed that video in an incident command workshop to get everyone's attention, but that could easily be showed at a we kinda open our class with a Mayday video in the assessment center class as well, right? Mm-hmm. And we tell them, look, this isn't just about the job or it's certainly it's not just about the tests, it's not about you. It's about your crew. It's about the public you're sworn to protect, it's about the mission. And that's same kind of opening of hey, Mayday what's happening here. This is why you're here. Not to pass a test, not to come out high on the list, not to get a promotion. It's it's to save others, to serve others, to lead others into battle most of the time and make sure they go home. Absolutely. Those things are intertwined and I I'm I'm I'm proud of us as a team 'cause I think we've done a really good job of of making those things intertwined. We don't teach one way for the test and another way for the real world. We say, look, they're they're simpatico, right? when I was coming up in the in the eighties And you wanted to promote, they told you, okay, here's what you need to know for the job, but you won't don't worry about that right now. Just here's what you need for the test. Right. Once you take the test and promote, forget all that crap, here's what you need to know for the job. It's like, my God, like we've said before, what if airline pilots use that philosophy? What if cardiac surgeons use that philosophy? it doesn't work that way. Well you brought up to me, Chief, you had mentioned earlier about, my very thankful for the progression of my career and I've heard those things of well do it this way for the test but real world you'll do it this way. And now having come toward the latter side of my career and being able to sit across the table, you can tell when somebody's doing that. Yeah. and that goes back to the authenticity and the preparation that we talked about for these assessment centers is be yourself. Truly prepare yourself for the position. And when you do, that will shine through on an assessment center. But more importantly if if and when you do promote, you have those knowledge, skills and ability to be able to make those decisions for the welfare of your crew. Right. And the citizens, obviously. Exactly. As long as so we'll kind of start to close up with this, as long as you stay mission focused and servant with a servant's heart and mission focused, always about the mission, whether it's a text or whether it's your crew or whether it's your district chief or battalion chief. Y that foundation should never change. Absolutely whether you're a probie or whether you're the fire chief, right? It's about the mission. That's why we're here. That's who we're here for, not ourselves. It gets weird at promotion time. Folks start competing and start, getting into little groups and little subgroups and enclaves start maybe develop or someone feels left out or you know, someone gets some inside information or folks start obsessing about, you know, how many openings are there gonna be and and who's taking the test and how long's the list good for and And all this garbage. That's background noise, folks. That's just adds to your baggage. Do not get sucked into that. Right. Do not get sucked into that. So Chief, I want to thank you for a great show today. Thank you for being on our team as one of our lead instructors. for those of you out there, Chief Areza is a district chief with Tulsa, Oklahoma Fire, but he's also a phenomenal lead instructor for us at Trained Firefighters.com. We have a ton of classes coming up around the country. Please visit our website at Trainfirefighters.com. You'll learn more about that. You'll get a chance to meet and work with Chief Reese, learn from him directly. In the meantime, God bless you. God bless the American Fire Service and those you serve, those you lead, and your family. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Chief. Thank you, Chief. Thank you for the opportunity.