Latest / History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present / Yes, Rebels Are Always On the Run (Ft. One Battle After Another, North By Northwest, and Running on Empty)

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Yes, Rebels Are Always On the Run (Ft. One Battle After Another, North By Northwest, and Running on Empty) · History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present

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They say we're loud, opinionated, afraid Telling
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us to hush, dim our historical light But darlings,
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we're the Harpies sharp and keen Unveiling the
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truth behind the silver screen! History Harpies
0:17
hear us roar Through the ages we explore Hi and
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welcome to History Harpies This is Lauren And
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I'm Christine This is our 17th episode, Lauren.
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I can't believe it. I can't either. And it's
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been a while since we were here. It has been.
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How was your winter break, Christine? It was
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good, I have to say. I went to Maine where it
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was freezing cold. Right. But that was great.
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And I got a lot of work done and did some relaxing
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with my children. Good. And so all of that was
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very nice. Mine was, I would say, both good and
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terrible. That's a bad combination. The reason
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why it was terrible was because the first two
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weeks of it were spent with this new strain of
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the flu, which is horrible. I did not get a flu
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shot this year. I will not make that mistake
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in the future. I could not pick my head up. I
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had no energy. and it was just awful. And I had
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to cancel all kinds of things I was looking forward
1:30
to and I was just not in a good place. So the
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flu was bad, but my boys came back from college
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and seeing them was awesome. But I will say that
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college breaks are too long. Four weeks is It
1:48
is a long time. For anyone to be home from college
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and it is too long for families to have to have
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additional people in your house, especially accommodating
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around our normal routines. When all the fun
2:04
dies down and you've seen all the friends and
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you've watched all the movies and you've done
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all the food, there is nothing to do. And both
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of my kids go to colleges where there is a lot
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to do, and there is much less to do here. So
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I'm happy that one of them is back, the other
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will be back tomorrow, and I am looking forward
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to them having great semesters and having eaten
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and done the things they like to do when they're
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home. But it is just too long. It is. I remember
2:36
that from my own college days, that it was...
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long long winter break and winter break is unlike
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spring break where you go home for a week and
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you can kind of sleep and refresh good amount
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of time but winter break no well of course Good
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thing, something really wonderful about this
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time of year is that we get into awards season
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and we love awards season. One of the reasons
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why Christine is one of my favorite people in
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the world is because she appreciates awards and
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award shows as much as I do and will watch All
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of them. It doesn't matter. The sag, the critic's
3:16
choice, the independent spirit, who the fuck
3:19
cares? All. All. So tonight is the Golden Globes.
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Tonight is the Golden Globes. And we will be
3:24
getting back together to watch the Golden Globes
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and see all the Botox and all the dresses and
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the speeches and whatever. And actually, I will
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say And we'll cover this, you know, when we start
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talking about our content. Right. That this year
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has much better films, in my opinion, than most
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years. I don't know. There aren't as many like
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what is that? I've never heard of that. I've
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never seen that films as there are this year.
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I do actually know what the films are. That is
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a good thing. That is true. And they're also
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I would say this year there aren't. films that
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I despise. Like Enora. Enora last year, as we
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discussed in our very first episode. That was
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a very difficult movie because we despised it
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so much. We despised it. And I had actually forgotten,
4:14
I'd blocked out of my head until yesterday, that
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it in fact won Best Picture. It won Best Picture.
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I do not think a film that I despise will win
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Best Picture. And I am very happy about that.
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And the TV shows, I mean TV is always good, so
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whatever ends up winning is going to be something
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I also like. It's not going to be something I
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despise. But do you remember the year, I mean
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not only in Nora, but we had the Legend of the
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Fall, Anatomy of the Fall. Oh my god, that movie
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was so awful. And those horrible, slow movies.
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And then Amelia Perez and these things that you're
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just like, oh. The substance. I mean, why? Awful.
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Why, why, why? At least this year there's content,
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there's creativity, there's historical references,
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there's some commentary being made. There's some
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thinking going on. Some thinking going on. And
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that of course takes us to our subject for today.
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Right. Which is we want to talk about a few films
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and maybe one television show that have to do
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with identity, have to do with people being chased,
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have to do with politics and political action.
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People on the run. People on the run. And so
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we wanted to start today by talking about something
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getting so much awards love. And that is one
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battle after another. Something, of course, that's
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getting tons of press nominated for Golden Globes.
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I'm sure it will be nominated for Oscars nominated.
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Oh, of course, the SAG Awards have now been renamed.
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They are now the Actor Awards. You know, same
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death. Right. And so getting a lot of SAG love
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one battle after another. And so this obviously
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is a film that is extremely contemporary in many
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ways, but also has A lot of throwback vibes.
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A lot of film for historians like us to be really
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interested in and to say a lot about. Yes. And
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just to make clear, neither one of us, I think,
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saw this in the theater. Correct. We both saw
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it on HBO and streaming. And so can't, again,
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remark on the big screen experience of it. But
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I don't think we really needed a big screen experience.
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I'm not sure about that. Given how much I enjoyed
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it, I now kind of wish I had seen it in the theater.
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But yeah, I can see why it's getting a lot of
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Oscar love, whether it deserves it. Is another
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question. Is another question. But it is a film
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that is both... Very, very relevant, but also
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a commentary on a lot of older films that are
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in the same genre and that share a lot of the
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tropes that we'll discuss. So what did you think,
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Christine, of One Battle? And I have no idea.
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Although I do have an idea. OK, what would your
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idea be? I'm going to ask before I say anything.
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Here's what I was thinking when I first saw the
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movie and then was thinking, what will Christine
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think? And I was thinking. Christine is going
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to have some concerns about this movie. Christine
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is going to like some of the performances, but
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find others lacking. And I don't think that Christine
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is going to like the overall story. That is my
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prediction. But I, of course, could be completely
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wrong. I think your prediction is almost exactly
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correct. Totally correct. Now, I will say, I
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mean, I generally am a fan of Paul Thomas Anderson.
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Yes. Right. And I saw Boogie Nights when it first
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came out. I still think it's just, yes. Amazing.
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So bold, so ambitious for a young filmmaker.
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I think it's probably the case that he did too
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much coke when he was hanging out with Quentin
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Tarantino. You know, Magnolia. Again, I admire
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the ambition. I have not seen a couple of his
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films. I really wish I still haven't seen Phantom
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Threat. There will be blood. I haven't seen Phantom
8:15
Threat either. So it was interesting to kind
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of revisit that. Of course, you and I saw Licorice
8:19
Pizza together at the movies. We both really,
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really liked it. And at least I remember us really
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liking it. So the basic thing for me about one
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battle after another. To me, it really obviously
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is. It's a PTA film that should have been done
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by Quentin Tarantino. Correct. And that you can
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really see all the DNA is just all through it.
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All through it. All through it. Right. I did
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think that Leo was fantastic. And what I really
8:55
do. admire about him is he of course is so willing
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to be hideous right i mean i think that's so
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great especially for someone who's committed
9:07
to only dating women who are twenty five and
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so i love the lack of vanity and. I think the
9:15
character is one note, right? We really don't
9:17
know very much about the character at all. The
9:19
characterization of the film is terrible. Right.
9:22
Absolutely terrible. And I would actually, as
9:24
someone who really liked the film, would agree
9:26
that one of the downsides of this film is I just
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wanted more of everyone, even for a film that
9:34
was quite long. So long. Yes. And I think, yes,
9:37
you're right. Leo as a burnout who doesn't understand
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pronouns is just terrific. Well, and of course,
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and what makes that so terrific, especially,
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is that he is playing opposite Sean Penn. Correct.
9:48
Right. And so he's this, in effect, Jeff Spicoli
9:50
character. Yes. And of course, we've already
9:51
talked about Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Right.
9:53
Right. So he's kind of the Jeff Spicoli. He is.
9:56
Having gotten older. He is. And so I think so.
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That performance, I think, was fantastic. I think
10:02
the Sean Penn performance was, again, one note.
10:06
Right. But fantastic. But fantastic. Especially
10:09
given, I think, if it weren't Sean Penn, you
10:12
might not think it was so great. But knowing
10:14
Sean Penn's politics, he's playing this guy who
10:20
just won't die. And he's this neo -Nazi. And
10:24
just all of it is really, I wouldn't say fun,
10:28
but it is It is an amazing performance by Sean
10:31
Penn. Yes. And what I will say, though, is that
10:35
I don't see the film as satire. And my biggest
10:38
complaint about it was it was, well, maybe not
10:41
my biggest, but a serious complaint I have about
10:43
it. I feel like tonally, he did not, Anderson
10:47
did not get whatever he was going for because
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it's not, again, it's not this Tarantino full
10:53
commitment. Tarantino, right? Over the top, right?
10:57
Totally ridiculous, you know, this kind of ultraviolence
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done in this very amusing way, right? Even something
11:02
like Inglourious Basterds is funny. And we had
11:05
just watched Once Upon a Time in Hollywood the
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night before, and it was a really interesting
11:09
contrast to see, or maybe after, but we watched
11:12
them close together. And it was, again, the end
11:16
of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is so over the
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top, is so Tarantino. And again, seeing them
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sort of side by side was very very interesting
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and exposed a lot of the holes in battle. And
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that's the thing is that I think he It seemed
11:36
to me to be extremely straightforward and obviously
11:39
you have the weird little moments like when he
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is trying to he can't remember. Write the sort
11:44
of taglines you can't remember the codes right
11:46
and you have these kind of weird tiny little
11:48
moments but again for a film that is you say
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is so long yes i was like okay it seems pretty
11:53
straightforward to me in that i. I feel like
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the one notes are there on. purpose in the sense
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that he can't do anything better. I feel like
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he was so committed to the political message
12:07
that he didn't allow himself. And so I want to
12:11
me the thing I utterly hated the most and then
12:15
I'll shut up for a little while about it. The
12:17
thing I hated the most. So Tiana Taylor's character
12:21
is an actual murderer and not just a murderer,
12:25
a murderer of a black working class man. right
12:30
and the film never resolves this and so you have
12:33
this kind of like well you know my dad told me
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she was a hero but now i realize she's a rat
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right and i was like well i think the problem
12:40
is that she's a murderer, again, of a black working
12:46
class man. And so any kind of commitment that
12:48
this the French 75, right, we don't really know
12:51
what they're about. We don't. I think it's really
12:52
fascinating that when the film begins, what in
12:55
2009, it's during the Obama administration, right,
12:58
something the film isn't particularly clear on.
13:00
And so I thought that that was, again, in terms
13:03
of saying, what tone are we going for here? Is
13:06
this a straightforward sort of political film?
13:09
Is it satire? Is it just this, again, kind of
13:12
over the top Tarantino -esque thing? I didn't
13:14
think it worked in any of those ways. Yeah. I
13:19
heard you're saying, I mean, the questions of
13:22
what is the French 75? What are they committed
13:25
to rather than just... Anarchy, yeah, yeah, stirring
13:29
shit up. I thought there was the editing in terms
13:33
of too many things blowing up. The idea that
13:36
they just want to raise hell could have been,
13:39
that one scene with Sean Penn was enough. for
13:42
me in terms of I didn't need to see any more
13:44
action on their part in terms of being rebellious
13:48
to understand what their purpose was. I didn't
13:50
need all those scenes in the beginning of her
13:53
family and the baby and all of that. There's
13:56
no reason for it. We understand she's a badass,
14:00
she's a revolutionary, but in the end she is
14:03
going to flip. I mean, that's, that's, and then,
14:07
and then she runs and then we never see her again.
14:09
And so the beginning of the movie, for me, could
14:12
have easily been 15 minutes. And then, I mean,
14:15
before he is on the lam with the daughter. And
14:20
because the whole point of 16 years later is
14:23
that Sean Penn now has to prove that he is not,
14:27
is or isn't, right, the father of this mixed
14:30
-race child. And It took a very long time to
14:34
get there and so my criticism was that the character
14:38
development was sacrificed for all of this other
14:41
exposition that really didn't go anywhere and
14:45
so like well I love Sean Penn I love Benicio
14:48
and I love Leo and I actually thought that the
14:51
daughter was fantastic with Leo and that their
14:54
relationship was really interesting. None of
14:56
them were fleshed out in a way that made a whole
14:59
lot of sense in terms of forwarding the storyline.
15:03
But I liked the ideas so much in some ways that
15:06
I still enjoyed the film and I still enjoyed
15:10
the filmmaking. And again, we'll talk about North
15:13
by Northwest later in those car chases. Car chase
15:16
at the end, which, you know, with all the hills
15:20
and you see that in the beginning of North by
15:22
Northwest. And so to kind of contrast those.
15:25
I think there was a lot of, I'm going to kind
15:27
of just go on my artistic journey rather than
15:31
let's forward the plot and let's, and even, you
15:34
know, the nuns, right? The nuns are interesting
15:36
to me. But I want to know more about them. I
15:40
mean, there's a lot of characters in this film
15:42
that I'm just kind of like. Who is this person?
15:44
I want to know more about them. The friends of
15:46
the daughter, the high school. That's interesting
15:49
too. For me, all of it were kernels of interesting
15:54
people, but without any real imagination in terms
16:00
of a fuller storyline. Which is so interesting
16:03
because, again, even thinking about the Julianne
16:05
Moore character in Bookie Nights, where we know
16:09
a lot about her. In part, it's because it's Julianne
16:11
Moore. We i feel like a character like that in
16:15
this giant ensemble film right right even a character
16:18
like that we understand pretty well john c riley
16:21
in magnolia and so that was that was interesting
16:25
and that obviously this is not a big ensemble
16:27
film no but even thinking about the ideas. I
16:31
don't know what the ideas. are in that film.
16:35
I don't know what he is trying to say. And in
16:38
part, that was why, okay, and we'll talk about
16:40
Running on Empty a little bit later. One of the
16:42
things I really liked about Running on Empty
16:44
is that you have, okay, this couple, this is
16:47
what their revolutionary group is after, stopping
16:49
the Vietnam War. And the mother will even say,
16:51
right, well, once the war was over, the cause
16:54
was done. We were done. Right. But what was so,
16:57
I think, strange here is that we do have this
17:01
kind of all over the map. Like, oh, OK, so you're
17:04
letting go immigrants, legal immigrants, but
17:08
then also you're robbing banks. You're talking
17:11
about the cause. And it's like, I'm not even
17:15
sure what the cause is. It's just all authority.
17:19
I mean, the bank scene really threw me. I mean,
17:22
the immigrant. The immigrant activism made sense,
17:26
but then once they got into like law firms and
17:29
banks and other places, I was just sort of like,
17:32
OK, is this just any form of authority? And also
17:36
them going into the bank, right? And again, shooting
17:40
a guard, right? And just ordinary civilians who
17:46
aren't, you know, who are just at a bank. I mean,
17:48
they're not being detained. They're not, you
17:50
know, there's... it's just kind of to show their
17:53
own power and flex. That was confusing. And then
18:00
the existence of this group 16 years later, it's
18:05
like, well, what are they? What have they been
18:07
doing? What's the cause? Right. I mean, what
18:09
are they still standing for? And again, that's
18:13
where I think like the running on empty, where
18:16
still you're like, OK, well, they're still around,
18:18
but clearly the main two characters have distanced
18:22
themselves from that. Yeah. And again, here you're
18:25
like, it's funny that he doesn't remember the
18:27
passwords and things like that. It's it's they're
18:30
a great seat. That's a great scene where he's
18:32
on the phone and he's like, I don't know what
18:34
any of this is. And I just want to see my kid,
18:35
basically. But you do wonder what they're fighting
18:39
for anymore. And and again, the beginning. Well,
18:43
again, I think the scene with Tana Taylor and
18:46
Sean. pen is a very good one and a very effective
18:49
one in terms of storytelling. If immigrant activism
18:55
is their main thread, then that would make sense.
18:59
Because that's what then links later to Benicio
19:02
de Toro and his underground railroad thing and
19:04
all that's interesting. And if that were the
19:06
only message, or that were the main thrust at
19:10
least, it would make more sense. And that's why
19:12
I'm saying the beginning just really needed to
19:14
be edited. The parts that I think are supposed
19:16
to be satire are the white nationalist parts.
19:20
Yeah. And by the way, I had no idea that Tony
19:22
Goldwyn was in this film until seeing him. And
19:24
Tony Goldwyn is fantastic. He is great. He is
19:26
great. He is great. And again, and they are really
19:30
funny. And I think that those, that's what, that's
19:35
the quote satire. But it's juxtaposed in a way
19:40
that is very odd with the rest of the film because
19:46
the Sean Penn character, in terms of being a
19:49
white nationalist, you don't know that about
19:52
him until much later. Because in the very beginning
19:55
you're like, oh, he's really into the Taylor.
19:59
Yeah. And I think by the way, I mean, that's,
20:01
you know, your mileage may vary, but in some
20:03
ways the whole sort of like him kind of lusting
20:06
after Teyana Taylor. I mean, I understand obviously
20:09
what Anderson is trying to say with that, but
20:11
I think we're also potentially in a very Enora
20:14
situation. Yes. And then, okay, but you, Paul
20:16
Thomas Anderson. you seem to be objectifying
20:20
her as well. And you're not really at a distance.
20:23
So, I mean, I actually thought the whole sort
20:25
of like erection scene with Sean Penn to be actually
20:27
pretty vile. I found that to be really unpleasant.
20:33
And again, it was just, I don't know, and sort
20:36
of the closeups on her ass, where obviously he's,
20:39
but I'm like, eh, I don't know. Her hyper sexualization
20:45
is part of her power and that's what he's arguing
20:51
right but then we get into the question of well
20:55
is he objectifying her is he is he basically
20:59
violating a whole bunch of tropes that you know
21:01
we kind of wanna undo now is. But the other thing
21:06
is that we never see her again. Because we're
21:09
left with her with this image of her being both
21:12
somebody who's using her sexuality to get power,
21:15
and also somebody who's just on the run, and
21:17
also somebody who is a rat. So it's an incredibly
21:22
unlikable character. And we are left with no
21:27
resolution on that front. OK, but this is where
21:31
I actually felt like, it really reminded me,
21:34
we talked about this in the episode where we
21:36
talked about sinners, where I told you my suspicion,
21:39
I feel like Ryan Coogler can never let a villain
21:42
go, right? There has to be the kind of, not even
21:46
redemption of the villain, you know, Darth Vader
21:48
or whatever, but there has to be this kind of
21:50
like, well, you know, the villain's kind of not
21:51
that bad after all, in sort of a different way.
21:54
And we talked about this, right, with sort of
21:56
the vampire showing up at the end of sinners.
21:58
And, you know, we see it at the end of Black
22:00
Panther or whatever. And so it was really, interesting
22:02
to me because it seemed to me that Paul Thomas
22:04
Anderson was kind of stealing a page from the
22:07
Coogler playbook and saying, well, you have that
22:09
letter at the end. It's like, oh, well, I'm like,
22:12
wait a minute. So she's a murderer of the working
22:16
class. She abandoned her child. She was a rat.
22:20
And now, but I feel like kind of all of a sudden
22:22
we're supposed to think she's great. Because
22:24
she wanted to be a mom, but she couldn't be.
22:27
And I'm like, you know, and to me that was just
22:29
so... It was just such a cowardly thing to do.
22:35
Where I felt like some executive or some friend
22:39
or whatever said to him, well, you know, we really
22:42
don't want to end, you know, with this like strong
22:44
woman, you know, who's been so powerful. We kind
22:47
of don't want to end with her sort of being a
22:49
villain. So let's have this kind of moment where
22:50
she writes this letter to her daughter. And again,
22:52
at one point, still then, when the daughter's
22:55
kind of like, oh, this is so great. I have this
22:56
letter for my mom. I was like, your mom's a murderer.
22:58
Again, the film absolutely will not resolve this.
23:03
Well, and also the Regina Hall character is like,
23:06
yeah, your mom's a rat. Yeah, I'm going to tell
23:08
you. And we all fucking hate her. And then again,
23:10
they're like a baby rat. I mean, she goes in
23:12
there and all those women are really distrustful
23:16
of... of Willa. Yeah, right. And that's interesting,
23:22
right? Like what do legacies do and brings out
23:24
questions about also this mother that she's never
23:27
met and has been told is a hero. Right. Right.
23:29
That's the other thing is that I was so curious
23:31
about where, yes, I wanted something else caught
23:33
and I wanted this in. I wanted to know, okay,
23:37
when Leo tells his daughter, Bob, when he tells
23:42
his daughter, she's a hero. Did he say oh and
23:46
by the way she murdered a man basically in cold
23:49
blood. Right does it really even know that right
23:53
and the film never tells us that and so the reason
23:55
why that that was so important to me is that
23:57
i do think satire or not. He is trying to frame
24:02
a particular. Moral binary in the film, right?
24:07
But to me, the moral binary becomes extremely
24:10
complicated. Again, when you have the murder
24:13
of a working class African -American man. And
24:16
so I thought that that was absolutely crippling
24:19
to the film. And I, yeah, I just, yeah. That's
24:24
all I have to say about it for now. Okay. Well,
24:26
it's interesting because as I said before about
24:29
maybe one of the other, I think it was J. Kelly.
24:31
Is that what the name of that one was? Yeah,
24:32
J. Kelly. Look, my bar is do I detest this thing,
24:37
right? And I didn't detest this and I enjoyed
24:40
watching it. I love the performers that are in
24:43
it. I think they did. a great job and because
24:49
of that I came away thinking this is a good movie
24:53
and it has a billion problems and it's not my
24:57
favorite movie of the year but it's interesting
25:00
and it's ambitious and I can watch Sean Penn,
25:05
Benicio Del Toro, Leo forever doing those kinds
25:09
of things. And again, when you see Tony Goldwood
25:13
show up and you're like, but also it's like,
25:16
are we supposed to think he's the president?
25:18
And then you kind of think he might be the president.
25:21
And then you realize he's like a total Nazi.
25:24
And you're like, okay, he's, yeah, he's, and
25:28
that's supposed to be funny, right? So, and those
25:32
scenes with the white nationalists, which again,
25:34
are very... Again, we're supposed to read them
25:37
as satire. And that I think, again, that's why
25:41
the movie is called satire, even though most
25:43
of the movie isn't satire. And that's why when
25:46
you were like, oh, watch Bob Roberts, right?
25:50
And I was like, okay, this doesn't go with this
25:52
other one. Which is, of course, straight up satire.
25:55
Straight up satire. About Republicans. Straight
25:58
up satire. And this wasn't straight up satire
26:00
about Republicans at all. This was a different
26:05
kind of story and it's hard to describe exactly
26:08
what the central story is. If you want to break
26:12
it down and just say, well, it's about a man
26:15
who wants to sort of save his daughter from the
26:17
crimes of the past. Okay. And make sure that
26:20
no one like kills her. That's okay. I can buy
26:24
it. And again, I thought that he especially was
26:26
fantastic. He was. And I will say, the one scene,
26:29
actually my favorite scene in the whole thing,
26:31
which I thought was so remarkable, and again,
26:33
very Tarantino -esque, is when, is it Elana Haim?
26:36
Is that the name? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When she
26:37
exits the door, and you have this fantastic,
26:40
I don't know, I mean, how many takes it took,
26:41
when the door is sort of swinging open exactly
26:45
as she's shot. And again, I was like, that's
26:47
such a cutie moment. But I thought it was like
26:49
so... Clever. And in general, again, he doesn't
26:52
go for super showy things like that. No. And
26:54
so I thought that, yeah, that worked. But actually,
26:57
this is the real last thing I'll say. OK. I honestly
26:59
didn't really understand why. So the guy who
27:02
first shot Sean Penn to sort of get rid of the
27:05
evidence, the Sean Penn evidence, I was like,
27:07
well, I don't really understand why he's chasing
27:08
the daughter. That actually didn't make really
27:11
any sense to me whatsoever. Well, I guess in
27:14
the theme of racial purity or something like
27:17
that, but it doesn't really matter. It's like
27:18
if Sean Penn's dead, why is it an issue? I don't
27:21
know. It's not like he's going to go out and
27:23
shoot all biracial young women or something.
27:25
I just thought that was so odd. Who knows? It
27:28
was. Again, I think there was a lot of liberty
27:32
taken in that movie, and I'm okay with that.
27:37
It was not... completely misguided. Yes. So would
27:42
you watch it again? I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
27:45
And again, Jim really, really didn't like it.
27:48
And I think Alex liked it a little more than
27:50
Jim did. But, you know, Jim's main critique,
27:55
and again, you know, not to represent him on
27:56
the pod or anything, but he was just like, I
27:58
couldn't couldn't latch onto any of the characters
28:00
because I didn't know enough about them. Yeah.
28:02
Which is, I think, a fair criticism. And that
28:03
was his criticism. Yeah. And I think that's fair.
28:06
So, and again, I was like, yeah, I get that.
28:09
I get that. And for me, I was willing to just
28:12
take the, take the whatever, the leeway they
28:16
gave us with those characters and just kind of
28:17
imagine. So - Well, I will say that I think since
28:21
I watched one battle after another first, it's
28:26
been - i watched running on empty okay another
28:29
film that we wanted to talk about this time around
28:31
right and to me running on empty in so many ways
28:34
is a far superior film and i'm kind of glad that
28:38
i saw it after because i think that my reaction
28:41
against one battle would have been even more
28:43
severe because we have fundamentally the same
28:45
kind of plot so we have uh in this case uh 1960s
28:50
19 early 1970s revolutionaries who are protesting
28:53
the Vietnam War, involved in a bombing at a lab.
28:58
They end up blinding and ultimately killing,
29:01
paralyzing a janitor who was not supposed to
29:04
be present in the building. And so we have really
29:05
a family story about the two revolutionaries
29:08
who go into hiding, much like Bob and Willa,
29:11
go into hiding, adopt other identities. But in
29:14
this case, we have two children who, again, know
29:18
and have had to move repeatedly. take on different
29:22
names, and it really is a family story. I thought
29:25
this was really fantastic, and I couldn't believe
29:27
I'd never seen it before. And what's funny is,
29:30
so I had seen it before, but forgot about it.
29:34
And when I was watching it again, I was like,
29:37
right, that's going to happen. It was starting
29:40
to come back to me. I definitely had seen it
29:42
before. but with completely fresh eyes. And I
29:46
also thought it was terrific. I think the storytelling
29:49
in Running On Empty is so tight. And given that
29:53
it is a little under two hours and that they
29:56
move in... Clearly, they've moved many, many
30:00
times in their life. But we see them move once.
30:05
And the very beginning of the film is them getting
30:07
a tip that the FBI is onto them. And then they
30:09
have to move to New Jersey from Florida. And
30:13
so we see them move. And we see the ramifications
30:16
of them forming ties and connecting with people,
30:20
but also having to lie about who they are and
30:23
having to constantly be on the watch. that while
30:30
the two children and one is 17 and one is 10
30:35
as they've aged it's become more and more of
30:38
a problem that you know they form connections
30:41
and have to leave and that think about the question
30:43
and that in the case of River Phoenix who's who's
30:46
our 17 year olds on right now he is in a situation
30:49
where he is considering college And I guess the
30:52
assumption had always been that he wasn't going
30:54
to go to college. He was just going to be with
30:57
the family forever and take care of the parents.
30:59
And that also they make the point that having
31:01
the kids makes the parents legitimate and is
31:04
what allows the family to travel as a unit and
31:07
for the parents to kind of keep their guard up
31:10
and to disguise themselves because they seem
31:12
like these just like normal family just doing
31:15
jobs and sending their kids to high school or
31:17
middle school or whatever. In the film, River
31:21
Phoenix then has to make all these... Choices
31:25
or at least think about choices of whether he's
31:27
going to tell his girlfriend who he really is
31:31
or whether he's going to stay or leave or whether
31:34
he's even able to stay or leave and it was since
31:37
since he's a very talented pianist and one of
31:40
his teachers is pushing him encouraging him to
31:44
apply to Juilliard and this will be his future
31:46
right and one of the we also have this sense
31:50
right the the father played by Judd Hirsch. his
31:53
position is absolutely, if these children go
31:56
off and do their independent lives, we will never
31:58
see them again, right? Once every six months,
32:00
secret meetup, because the FBI will immediately
32:02
be on them. And so there also is this sense that
32:05
this is... One way to avoid jail and this is
32:09
this constant threat and so one of the things
32:11
I thought was an interesting comparison with
32:13
one battle after another is that obviously we
32:16
see stasis in one battle after another right
32:19
they have their new identities they are in this
32:21
place right and as far as we know right yes sixteen
32:24
years have gone by and nothing has happened and
32:26
one thing I thought was really. Sad and very
32:29
rich about running on empty is that you do have
32:31
this like okay what is your name now. And this
32:34
constant sort of refreshing of these identities.
32:36
And I was like, Jesus, how does a 10 -year -old
32:38
kid remember all this stuff? Remember six names
32:41
and six different schools and hair colors. And
32:44
so we have all of this apparatus of exactly that.
32:49
They are always living in kind of these sort
32:52
of. I don't know how to say it. Marginal or marginal.
32:55
Marginal, like sort of impoverished situations,
32:58
right? Jobs where they can be paid cash. Right.
33:01
And, you know, always doing, you know, this constant
33:03
lying. And again, not something we see in One
33:05
Battle After Another. No. Right? It is completely
33:07
a life based on daily lies. Right. In all of
33:11
these different ways. Right. And so I thought
33:13
that that was really interesting. And among four
33:16
people. And among four people, yes. Whereas Leo
33:18
is gonna... But Willa is just a normal teenager.
33:25
I mean, she knows that her mother has died and
33:27
some things about her father. But her father
33:30
also is a pothead and he's not a drug addict
33:33
or however you want to call it. It's a burnout.
33:35
It's not like he's even going to a deli cook
33:38
job the way that the Judd Hirsch character does.
33:42
And so Leo is just kind of laying in his house,
33:44
smoking weed. And Willa is going out and about.
33:48
as just a regular teenager, whereas these two
33:52
kids in Running On Empty have to keep up the
33:55
facade and work very hard to do it. work very
33:59
hard to do it and it's very clear say in terms
34:01
of their social lives right yeah these are kids
34:03
who don't have people over right right it's a
34:06
big thing when the girlfriend comes over this
34:09
is kind of shocking to the father it is and again
34:11
having to negotiate these different names and
34:13
all of these things with a stranger and so i
34:16
think that what all was so again heartbreaking
34:19
and so many things are heartbreaking so many
34:20
things are heartbreaking but the idea that these
34:22
these kids again i mean it's like how do you
34:24
not have ptsd so you're terrified of the fbi
34:28
You can't trust anyone, constantly the different
34:31
names. And one thing, of course, that comes up
34:34
over and over again that we don't, again, really
34:36
get in one battle is the idea that these children
34:39
are being punished for the sins of their parents.
34:42
This is reiterated over and over. And to the
34:45
extent also, which is so interesting, they have
34:48
curiosity about their grandparents. River Phoenix,
34:51
when he goes to the Juilliard audition, he then
34:54
goes to see his his grandmother, his maternal
34:57
grandmother, and that they're curious about their
35:00
family, right? And that they're not able to have
35:02
any other familial relationships with people
35:06
who are alive. And of course, we don't see that
35:08
in battle either. he sees his grandmother, and
35:13
then he also knows that his grandmother has some
35:15
relationship with Julliard. So it's in the family,
35:18
and his mother is the one who taught him how
35:20
to play the piano, and she, in another life,
35:23
would have been a piano virtuoso. And so there's
35:27
all this talent, and there's all this promise.
35:29
And I think that's another thing about the film
35:31
that I really, really liked, is that even though
35:33
it's a film about a family on the run, or government
35:38
activities, however you want to think about it,
35:40
It's also about talent that can't be unleashed.
35:44
Yeah. And because River Phoenix, clearly, I mean,
35:48
you can go to Julliard. He has all this promise
35:50
and he has all this support. And it's also talent
35:53
that Christine Lahti has as well. But she can't
35:57
show anyone. She can't play the piano. She can't
36:00
even tell the piano teacher or the music teacher
36:04
that, hey, guess what? I also know how to play.
36:07
She's a receptionist getting paid in cash. Right, right.
36:10
And so that, I think, what, as you say, so we
36:13
have this exposure to the rest of the family.
36:16
It's a very clear idea, right? So we have references
36:19
to Judd Hirsch's parents, right? As he says,
36:21
he's like old Russian Bolsheviks or whatever.
36:23
Right, right. And then his mother has died. Right.
36:25
He hasn't known it. And obviously we have a scene
36:29
where she is with her father from - Mother? I
36:32
love seeing Stephen Hill. I thought that scene
36:34
was fantastic. I mean, absolutely just incredible.
36:37
It's so beautiful. But needless to say, what
36:39
I also really liked about the film is that their
36:43
political identities, again, are so clear, right?
36:45
As we talked about a little while ago. So it's
36:48
very clear, right? They are student activists
36:50
protesting the Vietnam War. This is it, right?
36:53
They are at a lab that is manufacturing napalm.
36:56
They've been honest with their kids about it,
36:58
right? This is what we're doing. It was killing
37:00
people. Former SDS members. But they're not continual
37:06
revolutionaries. They are done. They are done.
37:09
And again, and as we said, she says this explicitly.
37:12
But what I really, really liked then is that
37:14
even though we have the same kind of, you know,
37:17
sort of shadowy connections, right? Making the
37:19
phone calls and the networks that we do in One
37:22
Battle, she's very clear, right? This is not
37:25
what we're doing anymore. One of their friends,
37:30
whatever that former lovers, whatever he says,
37:32
you are living this bourgeois life, right? You
37:35
basically are the classic capitalist. This is
37:38
what you're doing. And but one of the details
37:41
that I thought was so Great. Again, in terms
37:43
of really clarifying kind of the political identities
37:46
of these people was when Judd Hirsch is like,
37:48
I don't want him to playing piano because that's
37:51
basically European bourgeois. you know, they
37:54
have to be listening to James Taylor or whatever.
37:56
But I thought that that was so fantastic because,
38:00
of course, that's exactly right. What a sort
38:02
of late 1960s, early 1970s, right? Communists
38:05
would say, like, oh, my gosh, you know, that's
38:07
not the music of the people. You know, Mozart,
38:10
that's for the elite. And I thought that that
38:12
was so fantastic. Just this little tiny, tiny
38:15
thing that illuminates this character, I think,
38:18
really well. But he also, in another scene that
38:22
I thought was great, says, to the kids, here
38:24
are guns, we don't use them. And that's the end
38:28
of it. So we're not gonna go rob a bank with
38:31
this other guy who's now doing that just to go
38:35
get the pigs or take down the man or whatever.
38:38
No, we're not doing that anymore. We don't do
38:40
guns. And again, a huge contrast with battle.
38:43
Absolutely. And we just kind of... live our lives
38:46
now and we did what we did in the past and we're
38:50
just gonna kind of continue on and be decent
38:52
members of society. And do unionization, and
38:57
food banks, and Greenpeace, and things like that.
39:01
But we're not going to, in any way, beat up a
39:04
bank. And then basically rationalize it to ourselves
39:07
as being some sort of political action. And as,
39:10
again, we see in One Battle, where it's like,
39:12
we're robbing a bank. Why are they robbing a
39:13
bank? Who knows? Who knows? Other than to, again,
39:16
fund the revolution. And so I thought that that
39:18
was so, it was just so, we talked about characterization
39:21
with One Battle. The characterization here is
39:23
so, So. fantastic. It really is. It's just brilliant.
39:27
And you do have this, the idea that the two of
39:31
them, the two parents are from very, very different
39:33
backgrounds. The sense that the sort of wealthy,
39:36
waspy parents of Christine Lottie, that they
39:38
blame Judd Hersh's character for driving her
39:41
into activism. And also that the two of them
39:44
maybe weren't meant to be, maybe she was in love
39:47
with the other guy who went to rob the bank.
39:50
But for whatever reason, they found each other,
39:52
they're together. They escape together, and now
39:55
they've built this life. And that they really
39:59
struggle. And then Christine Lutty's like, you're
40:01
right, he has to go to Juilliard. He should live
40:03
his own life. And Judd Hirsch is like, no, we
40:06
made this promise that we were going to stay
40:07
together as a family unit. all four of them have
40:11
and to some lesser degree the the youngest child
40:14
you know he's not as fleshed out as much he's
40:17
just like a little little kid yeah but i mean
40:19
and river phoenix who's so brilliant in the film
40:21
so brilliant and who on the one hand is so vulnerable
40:26
but also so mysterious because he can't tell
40:30
anyone who he is And at the same time, he has
40:33
to balance his own interests, piano, classical
40:36
music, girls, like normal high school stuff,
40:40
baseball, but also can't really fulfill any of
40:43
these things without major consequences. Yes.
40:47
And at the breaking point where he's like, I
40:50
have to tell you who I am. And you can just see
40:53
how painful that is and how difficult that is.
40:57
And it's just an amazing scene. It is. It is.
41:00
And also with this awareness that whatever life
41:02
he builds will just be sort of removed from him,
41:06
right? As soon as his dad says, it's time for
41:08
us to be on the run again. That all, whatever
41:11
he has built in any particular place, the baseball
41:13
team in Florida, or the Juilliard audition, all
41:16
of these things are just taken away. And the
41:18
dog! Oh my god, when they leave the dog. But
41:22
also, you get the sense they've left other dogs.
41:26
So when they leave the dog, they're like, well,
41:28
it's just another dog. It's terrible. It's terrible.
41:32
And when the younger son, you know, again, they
41:36
have so many names. Yeah, I know. It's hard to
41:37
remember. Whatever his name is. When he says
41:39
he got to take his piano, you know, it's just
41:41
like so sad that they're not able to take anything
41:45
with them. Well, and especially, I'm like, why
41:46
did you even bother putting the dog in the van?
41:50
Why did you even do that in the first place?
41:52
But something else that I thought was so good
41:54
about it, again, that one battle really has no
41:57
interest in, is that when you have, because River
42:00
Phoenix's character is 17, and the father is
42:04
such this kind of potter familiar, you know,
42:06
we're doing this, we're moving here. And when
42:08
River Phoenix says, you're the man now, right?
42:11
You told us to challenge authority, you're the
42:14
authority. And I was like, of course that's a
42:16
conversation that a family in this position would
42:18
have. We're saying, oh, wait a minute, why do
42:21
I have to live your way when you basically questioned
42:24
all of these things to the point of violent political
42:27
activism? So I thought that that was really a
42:29
wonderful thing to do. I was so, I don't want
42:31
to say surprised, because of course it was so
42:34
exciting and so sad to see River Phoenix. It
42:36
was. It was. it was so well done and as you say
42:42
for a short a fairly short film yes it was so
42:45
multi -layered a lot of ground yeah it really
42:47
does grounds of class it covers grounds of course
42:51
of these. these smaller family stories, but I
42:56
mean, the same dynamics, I don't want to get
42:58
too much off track, but something like a Stand
43:00
By Me, where you're getting, again, a smaller
43:02
story, four characters, all different, short
43:07
in length, but you really understand who these
43:09
people are. And I feel like... And River Phoenix,
43:13
of course, in both of them. Yeah, yeah, sure.
43:15
But he's so expressive, but at the same time
43:19
with such a kind of quiet presence. And again,
43:23
I went and read a whole lot about him afterwards,
43:26
just kind of remembering the relationships that
43:28
he had with his co -stars and with Keanu Reeves
43:31
and with Harrison Ford and all of these people
43:34
that had worked with him and just their memories
43:36
of how amazing and talented and this rising star
43:40
of his generation. know, defining defining star
43:43
of his generation at the time. And you can really
43:45
see it in this film. And I think that that's
43:48
one of the again, another contrast that we've
43:50
talked about is the undercharacterization of
43:54
Leo or whoever in battle here, you just, you
43:59
really know who these people are. And it didn't
44:02
take, I mean, if we compare it with the Americans,
44:04
and there certainly are a lot of comparisons
44:06
with the Americans, but it didn't take five seasons
44:09
for us to understand that. I mean, this is a
44:13
film where in a very short amount of time, you
44:16
really do understand all of these people and
44:19
what makes them tick and why they would, again,
44:23
And there's no right answer at the end either.
44:25
I mean, of course you want River Phoenix to live
44:28
his life and to go to Juilliard and to be with
44:30
his girlfriend. But on the other hand, you don't
44:31
want the family to break apart. And who knows
44:34
when they'll see each other. Right. And it's
44:36
heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking
44:38
when Christine Lahti says to Stephen Hill, I'm
44:40
soon going to be in your position where I never
44:42
see my child again. I never see my child again.
44:44
And that's just. I have to say, when she gets
44:46
up from that table and says, like, I love you,
44:49
dad, or whatever, and Stephen Hill sort of. tries
44:52
to almost get up and start to cry. It was unbelievable.
44:55
It's one of the best scenes I think I've ever
44:57
seen in film. It is unbelievable. It is unbelievable.
45:00
And I will say, and something else I like, before
45:02
we start talking about North by Northwest, which
45:04
of course is much more lighthearted in many ways,
45:07
I think that what also, the sort of right note
45:10
that it had was, again, in terms of sort of the
45:12
moral capacity and sort of the moral quality
45:14
of these characters, again, as opposed to one
45:16
battle, because I think it's made, it's not simplistic.
45:20
right in the sense of like okay napalm was killing
45:23
right children right so we have napalm was killing
45:26
children this is an evil act we took action against
45:30
this immoral thing the killing of this man or
45:33
the paralyzing and blinding of this man was an
45:35
accident right we did not feel that we feel terrible
45:39
about and i really like that i like the fact
45:41
that then in effect the way that they've set
45:43
it up especially with C ladi's character
45:45
is that this is her punishment. Yes. Right. She
45:49
does intend to turn herself in once her youngest
45:51
child is old enough to kind of fend for himself.
45:54
We don't really see that with Judd Hirsch. But
45:56
I liked that, in that it didn't just come out
45:58
and say like, wow, these people were terrible
46:00
for being involved in this political activism,
46:02
because it's made very clear why they did it.
46:05
But also, right, there's not this like, well,
46:07
you kind of murdered that guy, we're never gonna
46:08
talk about it again. And so I thought that that
46:10
was really, it just made it so much more complex.
46:13
Right, like the cause justified him dying. They
46:16
don't say that. They don't say that. In a way
46:18
that, again, Battle, again, it's like our cause
46:20
justifies us shooting whoever we want or doing
46:23
whatever we want. And they're saying no. In fact,
46:26
we are repenting for this unfortunate consequence
46:30
of revolution or activism or however you want
46:36
to think about it. Well, the last thing before
46:38
we move on is that, and you and I think have
46:40
already said this. But it really is so interesting
46:43
to think about River Phoenix, right? Playing
46:46
the Leonardo DiCaprio role in One Battle. I mean,
46:49
he'd be what, 55, 56 now? Yes. And I think that
46:52
would be so interesting. It would be. Don't do
46:56
drugs, kids. Don't do drugs. Especially don't
46:59
do speedballs. No. Don't do that. No. Don't.
47:02
No. Don't do the heroin, don't do the cocaine,
47:04
and definitely don't do them together. No. Unless
47:07
you want to, again... Like, die, sadly, as River
47:11
Phoenix did at age 23. On a sidewalk in LA. In
47:17
front of a club. It's just so depressing. Really
47:19
terrible and depressing. And again, watching
47:22
these movies, watching this movie, but then also
47:26
some of the other River Phoenix movies. They're
47:28
just thinking about them and how brilliant he
47:30
was in them. And to think, again, he would have
47:34
had all the DiCaprio roles. Yes, he would have.
47:36
He would have. And DiCaprio says, actually DiCaprio
47:38
saw him that night at the Viper Room. Oh, okay.
47:41
And he was like, I didn't really know him, but
47:43
I admired him and he was one of the greatest
47:46
actors of our generation. I wanted to get to
47:47
know him. I wanted to work with him. And I just,
47:50
I saw him like right before he died. I mean,
47:51
even just thinking of like when he is simply
47:53
in, right, the Raiders of the Lost Ark, whatever,
47:57
which one is that? Oh, Holy Grail. Right, right,
47:59
right. When you just see him at the beginning
48:01
for a few minutes as the young Indy. That's right.
48:04
He's so electric, so charismatic. And Harrison
48:07
Ford said, this kid not only reminds me of myself,
48:11
but looks like me when I was a little boy. It's
48:15
so sad. Heath Ledger is extremely sad, but at
48:19
least Heath Ledger had had the opportunity to
48:21
do these mature roles. He had been able to be
48:24
in Brokeback Mountain, among other things, and
48:26
it was just River Phoenix. He had a child. It's
48:31
so tragic. It's so tragic. It's so tragic. Well,
48:32
again, on a lighter note, but also in our theme
48:34
of being on the run, being chased, and having
48:37
issues with identity, we also wanted to talk
48:41
about one of the many super fantastic Alfred
48:44
Hitchcock films, North by Northwest. Classic.
48:48
Classic. Probably one of the greatest films ever
48:50
made. Ever, ever. Just such a fantastic film.
48:53
And I always think Steven Soderbergh is a huge
48:55
fan of North by Northwest, which to me makes
48:57
a lot of sense. And so one of Hitchcock's absolute
49:02
great film, I think 1959. 1959. So starring the
49:07
absolutely amazing. Cary Grant, so delicious.
49:11
Yes. So delicious, no matter what age, no matter
49:14
what. And so spicy. And so spicy. And Eva Marie
49:18
Saint, looking very beautiful and so different,
49:21
say, from On the Waterfront, where she's kind
49:23
of this innocent ingenue, but here just being
49:25
so, again, beautiful and fantastic. So a film
49:27
about mistaken identity, about the Cold War,
49:31
about spycraft, about treason. Right. And in
49:35
this case, Cary Grant is not a revolutionary.
49:40
Not a revolutionary. Not really particularly
49:42
political in any way. And advertising is back
49:46
again. I love to think about this in terms of
49:48
Mad Men. Yes. Right. So Mad Men starts at what
49:49
1960s. So basically you can imagine Roger Thornhill
49:52
in the world of Don Drake. Absolutely. Which
49:55
is a fun thing to think about. Yes. Exactly.
49:57
Having your Gibsons. Having your Gibsons at
49:59
lunch. Right. Right. And so Cary Grant's character
50:02
Roger Thornhill is mistaken for George Kaplan.
50:06
George Kaplan. Kaplan, an FBI agent by a group
50:10
of very, very bad men. Very bad men who are collaborating
50:14
with the Russians. It's never said explicitly,
50:17
but we know it's the Russians because we have
50:19
a reference to the Cold War. And as it turns
50:22
out, there is no such person as George Kaplan.
50:25
So it's an even worse case of mistaken identity
50:28
in that Cary Grant's character has been mistaken
50:30
for a person who doesn't actually exist, who's
50:32
been set up as a dummy. to hide the real age
50:36
who is passing information on to the US government
50:40
to catch. And James Mason is so, like, evil in
50:44
this really fantastic way as a person who is
50:47
selling secrets to the Soviets. Right. Right.
50:49
But we also learn, again, while he is on the
50:52
run, very much like running on empty, that Additional
50:56
character traits unfold that he is witty that
50:59
he is loving that he actually is more committed
51:03
to causes and he might think and he's much braver
51:09
again he is willing. by, certainly by the end
51:11
of the movie, to literally go out on a limb for
51:15
Eva Marie Saint and for his government and to
51:19
serve the causes of the Cold War, however you
51:22
want to think about it. So it's about somebody
51:24
who in the beginning is sort of spineless. Just
51:27
a lush, you know, bon vivant. And again, this
51:30
very slick advertising man. Right. Who eventually
51:33
becomes a dashing hero and saves the day. But
51:40
in the middle of all of it are the brilliant
51:44
twists and turns that each scene has in where
51:48
Cary Grant is mistaken, but then manages to somehow
51:53
escape, capture, and is then put into another
51:58
scenario where he either has to pretend or he
52:01
has to run and is able to do it in all kinds
52:05
of creative and interesting ways. ways. And we
52:08
do have what is, of course, so famous about the
52:11
film, is that his kind of character arc changing,
52:15
it is being paralleled by our geographic movement,
52:18
right? That we start, obviously in New York City,
52:20
we start at the Plaza Hotel in New York City,
52:22
and then we end up at Mount Rushmore. And so
52:26
we have this wonderful sort of the all of these
52:28
kind of vistas, right? Where we see, okay, now
52:31
he is in Chicago, now he is in the boondocks
52:34
of Indiana, getting chased by a crop duster,
52:37
one of the most famous things, of course. And
52:39
then again, ends up in Mount Rushmore running
52:41
around. And so I like this idea that there's
52:44
not just so much movement, but as you say, all
52:47
of these scenes where the fact that he is pretending
52:50
to be someone else, he's being mistaken for someone
52:53
else, that it means that he does have to get
52:55
out of these. And the fact that he's in a train,
52:57
we have all of these wonderful scenes in the
52:59
train. And what is also, I think, so remarkable
53:03
and fun about North by Northwest is that it is
53:06
pretty unapologetically sexy. It is a very sexual
53:09
film. For 1959, this is a film that has endless
53:15
sexual references, and they are not at all. I
53:20
mean, one of the first things he says to her
53:22
is, like, how can I keep myself from making love
53:25
to you or something like that? I'm like, this
53:27
woman you just met on a train, all of the comments
53:30
about taking off his clothes and, you know, him
53:33
in the shower, and then, of course, him hiding
53:36
in the... Yes, in the car, yeah. And then, you
53:39
know, she's like, well, you'll have to sleep
53:41
with me up here. And I mean, it is clear that
53:43
the two of them have had sex many times. And
53:47
she even tells us, she even says, the book that
53:50
I brought with me is too boring. So basically
53:52
we have to spend all night doing it. Pretty much.
53:56
And as far as he's concerned, right, this is
53:58
just to pick up. She just is absolutely just
54:01
down for the sex and that's it. It's just been
54:03
this remarkable coincidence. And even though
54:06
he knows that she believes him to be a murderer.
54:11
But for some reason he's so dashing that she's
54:16
going to hide him and elude the police and things
54:21
like that because he is just Cary Grant. And
54:24
what's of course then again fantastic about it
54:26
is that we do see that he experiences sort of
54:28
sexual jealousy, that he is genuinely hurt. His
54:31
feelings are hurt when he believes that she has
54:33
just used him as part of her relationship with
54:37
James Mason, part of basically sort of keeping
54:39
him busy. And so I love that we also have this
54:42
kind of wounded pride, which ends up putting
54:45
her in a position of danger. And so we we go
54:49
again from him being this kind of rake. He has
54:51
these two ex -wives to feeling very hurt because
54:54
he just basically had sex with this woman and
54:56
now she is. And he's really, really hard on her.
55:02
I mean, I mean, gosh, all the names he calls
55:04
her and the way that he talks to James Mason
55:07
about her. And and again, it's it it's really,
55:11
really interesting, but then it's so endearing
55:14
when he does try to save her, and when he's throwing
55:18
her the matchbook, and when he's fearing for
55:21
her, and they're colluding together. And that's
55:26
a wonderful part of the movie, when they start
55:29
to figure out a way to escape all of this, but
55:33
then, of course... the end gets a little wonky.
55:39
So we have been, I mean it is, you would never
55:42
call it certainly a political film. No. Right.
55:46
And the film, of course, it goes without saying.
55:49
that we know James Mason is a villain because
55:52
we don't know why he's selling secrets to the
55:55
Soviets. There's no sense that he's a true believer.
55:58
It's not really clear if he just wants money.
56:00
And then there's a whole sort of cadre of people
56:02
around him who are assisting him in his diabolical
56:05
plans. But in a sense, we do as we were talking
56:09
about a minute ago, we have someone who seems
56:11
to be completely apolitical, but then ends up
56:15
being, I don't want to say sacrificial, I think
56:17
that's going too far. No. But, but sort of discovering
56:20
his, I don't know. Bitter nature, moral father.
56:25
Also the other thing which of course the very
56:27
final scene when you see the two of them like
56:29
Married in this back in the train, but also that
56:31
they've both accepted traditional gender roles.
56:35
Which neither one of them had had in the movie.
56:38
Yes, and that's a good point. Of course Eva St.
56:40
Marie's who knows how many men she slept with
56:43
as an agent, right? And he has of course been
56:46
married twice already. He sees women as sort
56:49
of frivolous. the end, marriage is the answer
56:55
to the problems that both of them have faced.
56:57
So in that way, it is very much a Cold War film
57:01
and all the bad guys die and nobody who's good,
57:08
nothing bad happens to anybody who's good. But
57:11
there is, of course, that Hitchcockian suspense
57:14
and duplicity and questioning of identity and
57:19
things that we see in some of his other and that
57:23
makes it, you know, again, so terrific. But also
57:28
in terms, I think your point about them being
57:30
on the run, which is different than the other
57:33
two films, which are much more static in terms
57:36
of the actual momentum. We don't see a whole
57:39
lot of, although we do see a lot of running in
57:41
battle, we don't see Leo and Willa on the run
57:45
the whole time. Looking for Willow. Yes, and
57:49
I think also the geography is always very unclear.
57:52
We're kind of like, okay, what is the distance?
57:55
We're in LA in the beginning, and they're somewhere
57:58
in Colorado. And obviously, Taylor's character,
58:01
right, she goes to Mexico. We have no idea where
58:03
she is, right, but she's in Mexico. But yes,
58:05
I think there's this kind of almost intentional
58:07
vagueness. Whereas North by the Northwest, again,
58:11
as you said, we start out on the East Coast and
58:14
we wind up in And this is the title of the film,
58:19
right? The title, I mean, I think that obviously
58:21
to a lot of people, that title has always seemed
58:22
very strange. That we basically have a film that
58:25
is named after Northwest Airlines, right? And
58:27
that's the whole thing. It's like, it's not complicated.
58:29
They are going north via Northwest Airlines.
58:32
And I probably should have looked up, right?
58:34
Why did Ernest Lambert do that anyway? But it's
58:38
made so clear that yes, we are traveling that
58:41
very particular geographical path. as he becomes
58:44
a better man. But we also have that little exchange
58:48
with Ava Marie Saint, where she says, well, life
58:51
has been very hard because of men like you. So
58:54
as you say, we do have the sense of her sexual
58:56
past. has just been, right, for whatever reason.
59:01
But he then, Cary Grant's character Roger, he
59:04
is then both the, he's the symptom, he's the
59:07
cause, but then he's also the cure, as you say,
59:10
through their marriage. And another contrast,
59:12
which again, if we're just going to go back to
59:13
like what you liked about Leo, this is not a
59:16
dressing down of anybody in North by Northwest.
59:19
This is a glamorous run. Glamorous. Fabulous
59:23
outfits. Everyone's gorgeous. And Cary Grant
59:25
even gets his dirty suit. Re -pressed. Cleaned
59:30
and pressed. Okay, so no one is willing to...
59:33
have a hair out of place, no matter where they
59:36
are, no matter what the circumstances, they can
59:38
be hanging off a cliff and they look fabulous.
59:42
But I mean, to me, it's so interesting, again,
59:45
to think about on the waterfront, not that we
59:46
were supposed to be talking about on the waterfront.
59:48
But again, you have such the idea that you see
59:51
in North by Northwest, Ava Marie Saint has been
59:54
turned into Hitchcock's ideal woman. Right. And
59:57
it is so fast to me, that character is so fascinating
1:00:00
because I'm also I'm like, OK, is she supposed
1:00:02
to be really an industrial designer, right? This
1:00:04
is a quote unquote career woman. And then I think
1:00:07
it's made kind of unclear whether this is just
1:00:09
her. cover story um or whether you know again
1:00:13
who knows right she she tells us how she got
1:00:14
hooked up with with james mason but it's like
1:00:17
well is she a working woman again is so brash
1:00:20
so old sexually right and i think that that is
1:00:23
such a question mark but it is i love that that
1:00:26
we have again this kind of ponytailed you know
1:00:28
very simple sort of sweet demure girl in on the
1:00:32
waterfront and she has basically become grace
1:00:34
kelly by the time we get to north by northwest
1:00:37
and you know obviously none of that is accidental
1:00:39
right That was the point, that was the point.
1:00:42
But I told you, I've been watching Alfred Hitchcock
1:00:44
Presents, and those are from 1955, 1956, that's
1:00:48
when the first season was on, and they're so
1:00:50
tight in terms of the script, but you really,
1:00:53
and obviously Hitchcock at that point had been
1:00:54
a filmmaker for so many years anyway, but you
1:00:56
really sort of see all of this DNA that appears
1:01:00
in his sort of later films in the 1950s and 1960s.
1:01:03
I love him so much and we can talk about Hitchcock
1:01:05
for like six hours. But we won't. And it's interesting
1:01:09
again to see these three films that I'm not saying
1:01:13
there is Hitchcock in battle because I think
1:01:17
PTA is definitely more influenced by more contemporary
1:01:20
filmmakers. But it does go back to something
1:01:24
like North by Northwest to think about momentum,
1:01:28
to think about identity change and all the themes
1:01:30
we have in the blog today and the kind of lineage
1:01:33
between these three films. And also to think
1:01:35
about the two films, the later films, which have
1:01:40
so much interpersonal development, characterization,
1:01:46
questions. You really care about whether these
1:01:48
people are going to be together, both Eva Marie
1:01:50
Sainte, Craig Grant, and the family. Whereas
1:01:53
in battle, you're like, I mean, if they kill
1:01:57
Willa, that's going to be sad. I don't really
1:01:59
know whether she even likes Leonardo DiCaprio.
1:02:02
We don't know what we never, sorry to interrupt,
1:02:04
but we never see the ramifications of like, he's
1:02:08
not her biological father. Right, that's right.
1:02:10
Right, and obviously she's going to recognize
1:02:12
him as her father, but that is never unpacked.
1:02:16
As far as we know, Leo doesn't know that. I'm
1:02:20
trying to remember. Leo doesn't know that he
1:02:21
is not the biological father. OK. And so that's
1:02:24
a huge question mark. And that's something else,
1:02:26
I think, that would be interesting in that film.
1:02:29
Yes. To see the dip, because obviously he's so
1:02:31
committed to her as his family. Right. But that,
1:02:35
who knows? I think that that was a missed opportunity
1:02:38
in terms of complexity and layering. For sure.
1:02:41
Well, let's move on to thinking about whether
1:02:44
we have any books that would go with these films.
1:02:48
Well, even though it's very apolitical, I'm going
1:02:52
to suggest The Return of Martin Guerre by Natalie
1:02:56
Zeman Davis. And this is actually one of the
1:02:59
rare historians books that was turned into a
1:03:01
film, a French film starring Gérard Depardieu,
1:03:05
I think back in the 80s. And it is a really interesting
1:03:09
story, a true story about a man who kind of came
1:03:12
back from the war and with a different identity.
1:03:15
And his wife began to suspect that he was not
1:03:18
her husband. And so in terms of no one's chasing
1:03:21
him, but in terms of identity, sort of changes,
1:03:24
what it means to be part of a family with kind
1:03:26
of uncertain identity, I think that it's a neat
1:03:29
kind of supplement. What about you? My recommendation
1:03:32
is going to be Tom Englehart's The End of Victory
1:03:35
Culture, which goes more along with the Running
1:03:39
On Empty. Well, all of them in terms of Cold
1:03:43
War, Vietnam, American might, American politics,
1:03:50
why America? for since its beginnings has thought
1:03:53
it could just go out and kick ass and unapologetically,
1:03:57
whether from the right or the left, really. And
1:04:00
then the way in which that sort of came apart.
1:04:04
And so it's a it's a contextual book that puts
1:04:08
I would say all three of these texts in some
1:04:11
dialogue with. um with with angela hearts thesis
1:04:15
and it's a it's a it's an easy read and it's
1:04:18
an interesting read and i think it it will shed
1:04:21
some light on certainly some of the american
1:04:24
history that's represented in in all of these
1:04:26
films um to some to some degree well that sounds
1:04:30
great and we should also remember that there
1:04:32
is of course a law and order episode yeah with
1:04:35
mandy patinkin about the same fit the same kind
1:04:38
of thing that we see look there is a law and
1:04:40
order episode for everything and by the way this
1:04:45
has nothing to do with anything but except law
1:04:47
and order but there is a new show called him
1:04:51
and her or his and hers on on netflix which i
1:04:53
just started watching which has the guy who held
1:04:56
mariska hargitay hostage it stars i did not see
1:05:00
it stars him And Mikey from The Bear and Tessa
1:05:05
Thompson. Oh, yes. So I'm watching that now.
1:05:08
It's set in Atlanta. It's a murder mystery. I've
1:05:11
watched the first episode and kind of curious
1:05:15
to see where it goes. But it's interesting to
1:05:17
see Mikey as an actual like. Living person with
1:05:22
all who's starring in this series because you
1:05:24
didn't watch the Walking Dead I didn't okay because
1:05:26
he's great in the walk. Okay, okay Not that I'm
1:05:29
recommending but I mean the first season of Walking
1:05:30
Dead is terrific But yes, because he's one of
1:05:32
the main characters in that okay. Okay. Okay.
1:05:34
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so this is just there's a couple
1:05:36
things on TV right now that have just come out
1:05:39
for the new year. And I was just looking around
1:05:41
Netflix last night and put it on. But when it
1:05:45
said this guy was also William Lewis, who stalked
1:05:49
Mariska Hargitay for four episodes and held her
1:05:53
in a cabin and did all kinds of sadistic things
1:05:56
to her, I had to give it a go. Always comes back
1:06:00
to mind. Yeah, it always does. It always does.
1:06:02
So we'll be watching The Golden Globes tonight.
1:06:05
And maybe our next Ep will feature one of those
1:06:09
nominees or some of those actors, actresses,
1:06:13
who knows. If you have something you'd like for
1:06:16
us to talk about, you can always let us know.
1:06:19
Listeners, all 10 of you. All 10 of you. We love
1:06:22
you. And actually, maybe next time we should
1:06:23
talk about the housemate. Since Lauren and I
1:06:25
went to see the housemate over break. Oh, for
1:06:27
sure. For sure. We have to talk about the housemate.
1:06:30
And we also have to talk about Rob Reiner. Yes,
1:06:34
we do. You mentioned Stand By Me earlier. Yes.
1:06:38
Both River Phoenix and Rob Reiner. So tragic.
1:06:42
So on that very unhappy, on that very sad note,
1:06:45
happy Golden Globes everyone and we will see
1:06:48
you next time. Until then, Harpie out.