Latest / The One Oʻahu Podcast with Mayor Rick Blangiardi / Joe Wilson and Dean Hamer on Lei Pua ‘Ala: Queer Histories of Hawai‘i

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Joe Wilson and Dean Hamer on Lei Pua ‘Ala: Queer Histories of Hawai‘i · The One Oʻahu Podcast with Mayor Rick Blangiardi

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Welcome to the One Oahu podcast.
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I'm your host, Brandi Higa, and today is Thursday, June 5th, 2025.
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And we're joined this week by Joe Wilson and Dean hammer, Award winning filmmakers,
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human rights advocates, and the brains and hearts behind Lei Pua Ala
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queer histories of Hawaii, and really so much more.
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So thank you both for joining me. It's wonderful to be here.
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Thank you.
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Aloha, Brandi.
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Joe, if we could start with you
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before we get into this, really tell me a little bit about yourself.
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Where did you grow up? How did you get into storytelling?
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Anything that you want our listeners to know?
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Oh, sure.
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So I was born and raised in a little town in Pennsylvania called Oil City.
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It's in the hills of Western Pennsylvania, industrial town, etc..
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And I grew up there.
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I went to school in Pittsburgh, joined the Peace Corps, lived in West Africa
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for a couple of years, came back to DC where I worked in grassroots
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community, economic, social justice, work and philanthropy.
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And that's where I met this guy, Dean Hamer.
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And our story kind of starts together back in 1996, in DC.
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Yeah.
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And I'm Dean and,
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I was born and raised in new Jersey in a suburb of New York City.
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My dad worked in the city, and,
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I actually had a very different career.
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I was interested in science.
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I got interested in that when I was in high school.
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I love biology, and I ended up going to Harvard Medical School
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and then spending 35 years at the National Institutes of Health,
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and that is where I began our work on LGBTQ,
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because I was one of the first people to start researching
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the role of genetics in biology and sexual orientation.
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And, that was a very interesting period of research.
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We discovered a lot.
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It was also
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how I discovered that there's a lot of disquiet
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and misinformation about,
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gay people and gay life and what it means.
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And that's what really got me interested in being able
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to communicate ideas about that to the general public.
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And at first it was scientific, but then that, in fact, led me to meet,
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Joe Wilson here.
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And that's where our story started.
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Which I'd be happy to tell if that's. Yeah.
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So of course.
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So the way we kind of ended up doing what we're doing now, which is directing
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something called The Leap for other queer histories of Y project, has roots
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in the reaction to our marriage, the simple act of getting married.
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So in 2004, before it was legal
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anywhere in the United States, we went to Canada and got married.
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We did what most people do after they get married, which is share
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their news with their loved ones and their family in their respective hometowns.
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For Dean, our marriage announcement was published in the New York Times.
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We got nice notes of congratulations, etc.
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from friends and colleagues and things like that.
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Mostly people asking,
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how do you get your marriage announcement in the New York Times? Yeah.
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It's another.
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Yeah.
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That was when they were just beginning to do that kind of thing.
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Yeah.
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But for me, you know, I grew up in a small town and I felt like,
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you know, many people might relate to this in kind of small communities,
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you don't always feel like you can be your full self easily.
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So I wasn't my fault self back in my hometown.
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But at this age, you know, I'm getting married at 40.
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I thought, well, maybe it would be a nice thing for me
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to share that kind of news back in my own hometown,
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because there's probably kids just like me.
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They're looking for signs of hope and, you know, inspiration and people like that.
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So we put the news,
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the announcement in my little newspaper, in my hometown newspaper.
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And there was quite a reaction.
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This is post, pre-social media or anything like that.
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So for a year, in the letters to the editor in that newspaper,
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there were daily 10 or 15
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letters, the majority of which were pretty
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shocking and terrible, you know, how dare you publish something like this?
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All of
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the, you know, the terrible expressions of homophobia
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you can imagine you should never should have been born, etc.
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but out of that visibility in that hometown,
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one day at our home in Washington, DC, about 300 miles away, we got a letter
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and it was from the mother of a gay teenager
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in that home town, and she wrote,
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my son is in 10th grade.
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He was out at school.
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He is being bullied terribly by not just kids, but administrators at the school.
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I don't know any gay people, but I saw your picture in the paper.
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Can you help?
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So that started Dean and I, on a journey
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of going back to that town, meeting with folks
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like that who were living in that environment, struggling
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to figure out how to not just have lives, have dignity and respect for themselves,
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but how to create a community that was more open in,
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inclusive and welcoming.
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So we ended up making a film
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about that experience that became our first documentary film,
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which launched us on a journey of storytelling,
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bringing marginalized voices, largely LGBTQ,
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voices, into the center
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of conversation, and then using those films as ways
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to raise visibility in communities across the country and create opportunities to,
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bring people together to have dialog about, well,
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how do we move this forward a little bit?
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And that journey brought us to Hawaii.
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Yeah, it was a funny story because, as part of that work,
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we set up a little competition for high school students, which was,
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do a screening out in the silence and then do some event
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that will help bring together people and educate people.
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And, it was a competition.
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And the winner of the first year was Farrington High School
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in Lehigh Valley in Honolulu.
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And we were like, oh, we should go give them the check in person,
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because then we can go to Hawaii and it'll be really interesting.
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We expected that the,
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the, the gay straight alliance here would be like
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most of the ones we had visited, which were kind of out of sight.
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And in the back of the school, small number of people,
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maybe one bowled teacher.
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So we were quite shocked when we walked into Farrington High
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and were ushered into the gymnasium
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for the football rally with the entire school there.
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And that was where we were going to present the check to the Gay
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Straight Alliance.
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And at the beginning of the ceremony, in walks the football team.
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And at the head, the lead is a kid who's twirling a baton
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and wearing high boots, who's just as mahu as you can be.
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And everybody was cheering them, and there was having a wonderful time.
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And we were like, we are not in Pennsylvania anymore.
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We are not in the continent anymore.
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Things are really different in Hawaii.
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And that's how we met.
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Kumu Heena, who were some Ahu teacher doing wonderful work,
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for Hawaiian restoration as well as what we would call the LGBTQ.
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And that started us really on the path of trying to listen to and give voice
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to Hawaiian voices that are very rarely heard outside of Hawaii.
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Because Hawaiian has Hawaii just has a different history,
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different traditions, and ones that are much more open and inclusive.
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And we thought that was really important for everybody to hear.
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Yeah.
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You know, when you talk about that reaction
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from Farrington versus, you know, Joe, when you went to your hometown,
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what was the reaction?
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Because it's different when you see a picture in the paper.
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But when someone is sitting, standing right in front of you with,
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you know, a successful career with a respectable,
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you know, history of the Peace Corps, you guys did all this tremendous stuff.
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And then now you're right in front of them and they kind of have to listen to you.
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And you're like, you know, this is what we're going to.
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We brought this here because, you know,
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the letter that spurred this, what was the reaction from that school?
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Well, so I think what we saw then is similar to unfortunately,
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what we're going through again now is a new period of backlash when it comes to,
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inclusion and acceptance of many people who,
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you know, are affected by racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia.
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What we learned
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in terms of the negative reaction that was appearing in the paper, letters
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that were being written, they were being spurred on
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by a local chapter of something called the American Family
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Association of Pennsylvania.
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They claim to be a kind of Christian
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right organization that is aimed at protecting the family.
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But really, what they were doing was provoking people in the community
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to see gay and trans people as the other,
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that there was an intrusion
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on the so-called normalcy of life in a small community like that.
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And there had to be a reaction, backlash against us.
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So that's really what that was about.
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And I think the work that we then started doing,
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meeting people in the community, you know, across all faiths,
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local families and
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everything, what we found was there are a lot of people
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who are quite accepting and actually also like us.
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There were a lot of LGBT folks
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living in that community, but living kind of under the radar and quiet
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and what we figured out was that we just needed to find ways
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to create safer spaces for people to feel like there are others like them
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in their neighborhood
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and in their churches, in their schools and communities,
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and to support one another as we start to raise visibility,
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knowing that visibility matters,
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because there are many people who might not yet
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be in that comfortable place of saying, this is who I am
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and who I love, or how I feel and how I want to express myself.
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But they're looking for signs of visible,
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visible signs that say, oh, there,
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there are people like me, or there are people in my community
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who will see and understand and accept me too.
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So that's ultimately what our work, I think became and is really still
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about in the life of other queer histories of Hawai'i, project through.
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Yeah, well, we thought it'd be fitting to get you focus on.
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Not only is this the first week of Pride Month, the Progress Pride
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flag is flying above the Falls Municipal Building, but also this week
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we unveil a new plaque at Queen Surf Beach.
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Can you talk about that? What's special about that?
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Queen Surf Beach is a really special,
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almost magical place.
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It's a place that,
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it really began in the 1970s, after the then mayor,
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decided there should be a
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public beach at Queen surf, and had the old restaurant and mansion
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that had been there, was demolished, became a public beach,
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and it became a gathering place for everybody in our community.
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So it was a place for local folks,
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but also a place for all the visitors from California and elsewhere.
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It was a place for mahu and what we would call gender fluid
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people today, but also just for gay folks and for lesbians.
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It became a place where people went to do Hawaiian things like making lei
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and dancing hula.
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It became a place to play volleyball, and there were fierce games,
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and we were just hearing stories this morning about how
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well there was the Mahu volleyball players, that then
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there was the straight ones that were just down the way,
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and they would come over and have a match in the model.
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Always been done. Just
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the straights were afraid to win.
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And it was a place where young people could go because it wasn't a bar.
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You didn't have to be 21 or whatever, and it was a place where kupuna could go.
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So it's really fascinating to hear the stories of this place.
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For me, what was fascinating is that, in the 1970s,
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I was, in Boston, I was going to med school.
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There was a gay beach on the North Shore.
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You had to drive there, and then you had to walk through the dunes
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in the forest for like 45 minutes, because it had to be hidden.
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It had to be secret, had to be way quaint beaches in the middle of Waikiki.
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It is in the middle of the tourist zone.
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Everybody's there and it's just like you're walking by
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and all of a sudden like, oh, there's a lot of guys together
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and a lot of girls together all of a sudden.
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So that is really it's just so Hawaiian.
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And it sounds like such an absolutely wonderful place. So
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we thought that was a, an important part of queer history here to be celebrated.
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What I love about it is, as Dean said, it's incredibly public.
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But if you remember too, what's the context?
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So this is early 1970s,
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the lives of
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gender and sexual minorities are still criminalized.
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At that period. It was risky.
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It's post World War two, and the conservatism of the 1950s
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and the 1960s, there was something called the Lavender Scare,
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which was a period like the Red scare, when, the federal government,
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people in the federal government was trying to root out communists.
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The lavender scare was when there were specific efforts to root out,
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gay, lesbian, you know, and trans people from federal employment.
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It was a very scary and threatening period for people.
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So the fact that something like a place like Queen Surf Beach has the incidence,
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it felt free and open and it wasn't regulated like a private establishment,
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like a bar or anything like that, where people could just be in public.
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I mean, it's it's really extraordinary.
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And I just think it's it's just such a beautiful symbol.
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It really symbolizes Hawaii in a way.
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Yeah.
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Queens was also the first site of organized
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LGBTQ activity in Hawaii.
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So in the 1970s,
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the Stonewall Revolution was going on, and it came to Hawaii,
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and the very first pride parade was held in 1974.
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It was about 25 people.
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They walked down the street in Waikiki, and afterwards they all went to Queens
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Beach and had a picnic.
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And that was the celebration.
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So it played an important role also in the beginnings
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of sort of political and social organizing that eventually led
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to such great changes in Hawaii all the way up to same sex marriage.
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So it's important for that purpose. And it's incredible.
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But this marker isn't the first that you two have collaborated on with the city.
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I want to go back to October of last year.
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Another plaque was unveiled
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right here on the Fossey grounds, actually, at the Rainbow shower Tree.
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Can you tell us about that and why that one was significant?
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This is a,
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really sort of, interesting story.
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The rainbow shower tree
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was important to us because of its name.
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It's actually the Wilhemina tenny rainbow shower tree.
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Cassie. Nicholas.
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And the Wikimedia attendee part is named
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after the daughter of that famous person here.
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One of the, you know, big industrialist.
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But she was a rather outward lesbian.
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She was called Pretty Boy by her friends.
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And even in the newspaper, she was like,
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in, in the army, and she wore men's army clothes.
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She had a girlfriend, a long one.
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And, one of the first trees of that particular hybrid was planted in her yard.
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So she got the name.
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It later got the name, Nicholas from a very well
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known botanist at the, Bishop museum, who gave it the name?
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Her name is Marie Neal, and she also was a lesbian.
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She had a long term partner that was known, not advertised
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by any means, but, it was well known that they were together.
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And so, when we heard this story
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from DeSoto Brown at the Bishop museum,
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who had personal connections to their families.
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In fact, I think de Soto says he exists thanks to well-meaning attending
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because his parents met at one of her and her partner's party parties.
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And so actually,
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we were like, oh, that should mean something.
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Yeah, maybe it could be called the Pride Tree.
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So we proposed to the mayor that he name or proclaim
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the well, I mean, a tiny shower tree is the pride tree.
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And he did.
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And we wanted to mark that with a plaque.
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So there's actually two of them.
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One is here, one is just in front of the FRC building.
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There's a beautiful shower tree there.
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And then the other one is planted in front of an important
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rainbow shower tree, one of the earliest that's in Foster Botanical Garden.
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So, it's really amazing to be in a city
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where, we have our own pride tree, I don't think.
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I don't think I can say that. And any other city in the United States.
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I think it's true. And what?
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You know, I think it's important to note that this is,
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you know, the first and I think still the only official pride tree in the world.
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And so thanks to the mayor's office, that's,
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you know, something we're really proud of. Yeah.
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And a few months prior to that, we were also in Chinatown in downtown.
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It was pretty much like a party atmosphere
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for that unveiling, but I, you know, I wasn't aware of the history as well.
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For the Glade.
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What was the glade for those who aren't familiar.
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So the glade was one of many nightclubs that the Glade
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was really a legendary nightclub in Chinatown.
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In the middle of Honolulu.
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That in the 1950s, 1960s
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became the place where what was then called female impersonators, people
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in our mahu and transgender community,
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performed fabulous shows.
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And they were so elaborate that they became
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a main staple of many, tourist,
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excursions, visiting celebrities.
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But more importantly, it became a real home
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for people whose lives were,
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sequestered in many other parts of the city.
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They were welcome there.
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They created family there,
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but they also went through some very difficult times there.
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So in 1963, the state of Hawaii passed a law,
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called the Intent to Deceive law.
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This grew out of what I spoke about regarding the Lavender scare,
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where there were efforts to criminalize people who lived outside of,
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the the norms of gender and sexuality.
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And this made the lives of many people that we would now
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call transgender mahu,
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risky.
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They feared being arrested or being targeted in many ways.
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So the Glade was kind of a home for them.
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And there are still many surviving performers from that era.
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Brenda Lee is one and many others.
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So we thought it was really important, important
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to, to note and mark that place
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on the landscape, even though that the original building doesn't exist.
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It's now the Mount Cam Marketplace in Chinatown.
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It's a place that deserves to be honored and remembered for what it represented.
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Yeah.
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What are the great things about unveiling the plaque
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there was that it was this sort of party atmosphere.
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And what we were especially surprised to learn
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is that Mayor Blangiardi said, oh, he used to visit the like.
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So I think that's just it's such a Hawaiian story,
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because where else would a city owned building be bragging about its,
19:38
its history?
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As you know, one of the first drag clubs around.
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And by the way, the mayor checked it out when, you know, back in it
19:44
back in the day, I think it's, that's why it was such a celebratory atmosphere.
19:49
Yeah.
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And, you know, my favorite part of that, it's still unfolding.
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So the property manager of that site, you know, that's the local produce
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and fish market and everything, just a wonderful place in Chinatown.
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He was so thrilled with the community aspect of just unveiling that plaque
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that he asked us with, the surviving members of the clan
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to put together a whole history wall inside the marketplace.
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So we've created a replica of the neon glazed sign is going to hang on the wall.
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There'll be a video running
20:18
that show, some of the live performances and a photographic wall
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and, you know, kind of deeper histories about, you know, kind of why
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these kind of community spaces are so important.
20:27
Yeah. That's awesome.
20:29
And I think the very first time that I met both of you
20:32
was when we were over at the Stones of Corporate Marvel.
20:36
For those that don't know what changed.
20:39
And then what was the genesis of that?
20:41
The stones occupied my who are really a very special place
20:45
and really the beginning of our work in this whole area,
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because these are four stones that represent the living spirit
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of four remarkable healers who long ago brought healing arts to Hawaii.
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And part of the reason they were such good healers is they were all for mahou kubi.
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Mahou means the role of Mahou, and it was that duality of spirit
21:07
that made them able to treat both males and females,
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that made them so powerful that extra little mana.
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Those stones have been here for five, hundreds and hundreds of years.
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The story about them is what got suppressed, and over time,
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the part about them being Mahou, it was what was left out.
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So we were lucky to be working with Kumo Kita.
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You know, they want to want. Hello.
21:30
Who knows? This story very well?
21:32
Who is Mahou herself?
21:34
Who is really our guide?
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And wanted to to bring that story back to life.
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So we did that through a film in a museum exhibition.
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And then, we started talking with the city about the need
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to mark that story at the stones themselves.
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Because place is so important,
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and the story is an important one, and it needs to be told at the stones.
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And so we are really happy to be able to work together with the city
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and with many other groups to add just a small amount of,
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of information at the site, that lets people know more.
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And that was in the form of a new marker
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on a small new stone just outside the main enclosure.
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That just tells people that these healers were remarkable
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for their abilities and for their duality of male and female spirit.
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And then since, you know, it's modern day a QR code, and now people can go
22:27
and see the animated film and read the whole story and learn a lot more.
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There's a little more to that story, though, that I want.
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I just want to make sure we convey, which is it's
22:35
why sites, physical sites that represent that people
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Mahou and and and people across the spectrum of,
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of gender and sexuality kind of have always, you know, been here.
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But people don't always know that.
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And so what's interesting
22:54
about this story, as Dean said when he was telling us about it,
22:58
we thought, wow, that's amazing.
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There's like a monument, you know, to these great healers
23:03
who are recognized because of their duality.
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So then, of course, we go to see them and read the plaque.
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But the plaque did not say any of that.
23:13
That aspect of that beautiful Lalo and that history
23:17
had been erased in the telling.
23:21
Over time, all the changes that came to Hawaii, those kinds of things
23:24
were marginalized and suppressed and erased out of the telling of stories.
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Well, early on, Mundine did his introduction.
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He said, you know, he was a research scientist.
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That gave him, I think, the impetus
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to say, well, what's the story behind this story?
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And in the University of Hawaii Library
23:41
Archives, you know, thanks to Dean's research,
23:44
we found really the only written document that shares the fullness of that story.
23:50
And it had been published in the
23:53
Thrums Almanac back in 1906, I think.
23:57
And it told that whole story, and indeed
24:01
it connected it to the royal family
24:05
of Hawaii, in that the person that had that committed to paper
24:09
was involved with Queen, the little colony,
24:14
Princess Leakey, like a and Archibald Cleghorn, who were very important
24:18
figures at that time, with kind of
24:22
Hawaiian history and knowledge.
24:25
They were the ones that saved that story.
24:26
But it was buried in an archive, and Dean found it.
24:29
And that's what helped us think about how we can bring that story
24:34
forward with actual documentation and start to bring it to life
24:37
in different ways in the book, and a new plaque at the stones
24:41
or the Bishop museum exhibition and now, you know, partnership with the city,
24:45
the return of Claremont, who's in the form of a live hula
24:48
telling that story on the Cahuilla beach all around.
24:50
And it matters because when people see this story
24:54
being brought to life in this, you know, pretty beautiful way,
25:00
it's reflective
25:01
of Hawai'i as a place where people can see themselves
25:04
and see themselves reflected in the life, the public life of our community.
25:09
Yeah, this is excellent that these stories are now being brought to light.
25:13
And, you know, you said, you know,
25:15
prior Tree, you know, no one else has something like that.
25:18
The way that we're able to make strides now is excellent,
25:21
but I know that there's so much more that still needs to be done.
25:25
What is that? That needs to be done?
25:27
One of the things that we've been hearing a lot
25:30
now is the need for a, a permanent
25:35
and a substantial place of memory for our community in Hawaii,
25:41
a place where people can gather,
25:43
a place where people can, talk
25:46
and remember the past and look forward to the future.
25:49
And we're now working together with,
25:52
Hawaii Health and Harm Reduction Center to start thinking
25:55
about such a place with a focus as an HIV Aids memorial.
26:00
It's hit
26:01
Hawaii very hard, like it did every place.
26:05
That's largely been forgotten.
26:06
We were reminded by the return of the of the Aids quilt to Hawaii this year.
26:11
But it needs to be remembered, in part because of all of the loss
26:15
and the sadness, but also in part
26:18
because Hawaii was different than any other place in the United States.
26:22
It dealt with HIV Aids
26:24
through public health and through science and through education.
26:28
Hawaii's the only place in the country that had needle exchange, and as a result,
26:32
was one of the safest place to get HIV Aids in the country.
26:36
I was terrible, but it was much better than other places.
26:39
And that's a history that really needs to be remembered.
26:42
So we're hoping to work together with people to create a permanent memory site
26:48
that will be a place to mourn, as well as a place to look toward the future.
26:53
Yeah, yeah.
26:54
We're lucky.
26:54
The city, typically living in Honolulu.
26:58
It's a place of great beauty.
27:00
There's, a site at Kakaako.
27:02
It's a waterfront park.
27:04
It's particularly of interest, and,
27:07
although it's still at the very early stages,
27:09
we're really looking forward to working with the city to, to develop
27:14
and to create a new space there,
27:15
that it will be something important for our community and for all of Hawaii.
27:20
And for folks that are interested.
27:21
Where can they go to find out
27:22
more about Lake Paula, or maybe if they want to get involved,
27:26
if there's anyone they can help, where can they find more?
27:28
Oh, yeah. Thanks for mentioning that.
27:29
I mean, like
27:30
for all the queer histories of Hawaii is really a community rooted project.
27:34
So stories can only be told when stories are shared by members of the community.
27:38
And people are coming forward.
27:39
And we have a lot of things on the website,
27:41
and we invite people to be in touch and get involved.
27:45
The website address is Queer Histories of Hawaii, Dawg.
27:49
We're also on Instagram and Facebook, and there's numerous ways to to be in touch.
27:54
And when it comes to La Paula, what does success look like for the two of you?
27:59
Success looks like
28:02
the rest of the world.
28:03
Looking at Hawaii as a model
28:05
for a progressive treatment, for a right attitude, for aloha,
28:10
instead of Hawaii having to look out at the rest of the world and
28:13
complain about it, they should be.
28:16
They should be looking here.
28:16
And I think, you know, understanding
28:21
history and,
28:23
you know, the struggles, but also the beautiful ways
28:28
in which people live their lives bravely contributes
28:33
to the ability of people now to do the same,
28:37
knowing that people have done it before, we can do it together.
28:40
What success looks like to me is that we don't need a project
28:44
like the Queer Histories of Hawaii Project, because we don't need
28:48
to mark such things, right?
28:51
We live in a world where there isn't such serious levels of,
28:58
homophobia, transphobia,
29:00
you know, sexism, racism, discrimination, the ways those things play out.
29:05
So through telling stories, we hope we can help create a place
29:09
that it's just, you know, what Hawaii represents to the world,
29:13
a place of aloha, more respect and dignity for everybody.
29:16
As more and more of these stories do come out, though, and you do,
29:18
you know, kind of,
29:20
bring these landmarks to people's attention.
29:22
You know, I lived here all my life,
29:23
and there's some stories that I didn't know about either.
29:26
But what's been the most difficult part about bringing these stories,
29:29
bringing this project to fruition, and how have you both
29:32
navigated that?
29:35
There really isn't I mean,
29:37
shockingly, there hasn't been we haven't run into community opposition.
29:41
The difficulty is just, you know, maintaining,
29:44
you know, the capacity to do as much as needs to be done.
29:47
And, you know, we're getting up there in our years. So
29:51
every day is a struggle to just, you know, do as much work as possible.
29:54
But it's fun and exciting and we think it really matters.
29:58
Yeah.
29:59
I've been doing this work.
30:02
For Keith 50 years now.
30:06
And when I started the first pride parade I went to in Boston,
30:09
people were throwing beer cans and stuff like that at us.
30:12
There's been tremendous change, but in all that time, I haven't worked
30:19
in a government, you know, a controlling government situation
30:23
where there's so much support at all levels. And,
30:28
so whatever difficulties there are,
30:31
there are a lot worse every place else.
30:35
So we feel really lucky to live here, I guess.
30:37
For sure.
30:38
Yeah. Well, thank you both for your time.
30:39
Is there anything that we missed?
30:41
Well, Randy, you said there were some stories that you might have to share.
30:44
Is there anything you would like to share with us?
30:46
No, I mean, I just I wasn't aware of the history
30:47
of a couple who I wasn't aware of the Glade I was in,
30:51
And then even the back story behind the rainbow shower tree.
30:55
Yeah.
30:55
When I went to the Bishop museum,
30:58
and I saw that was actually the first time I saw the film for a couple
31:01
who as well, you know, I and I passed by Waikiki all the time.
31:03
So I did see those stones, but that was.
31:06
Yeah, I'm just there.
31:07
Yeah. Just like all the other stones.
31:09
Oh, okay.
31:10
Good. Yeah.
31:11
So thank you. Okay. So you're right.
31:14
Thank you both for your time.
31:16
Thank you.
31:17
Appreciate it.
31:18
And Mayor Blangiardi
31:19
next town hall meeting is tonight, June 5th, at Kalani High School.
31:22
Start time is set for 6:30 p.m..
31:24
This will be the last one of 2025, so we hope to see you there.
31:27
Mahalo for listening. Mahalo to Joe and Dean.
31:29
And until next time, Aloha.