Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / How to Ruin a Child [with Richard Glover]

Transcript

How to Ruin a Child [with Richard Glover] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families podcast. So good of
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: you to join us for another week. Don't comfort a
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: crying baby. It's the last thing they need is to
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: pick them up and give them a hug when they're crying.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Certainly don't reward any bad behavior with any kind of
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: attention at all. Never praise your children. They will get
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: tickets on themselves. For most of the last couple of centuries,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: this is what experts have told Australian parents, both here
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: in this country and around the world. Richard Glover has
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: read all of them. He's literally sat in the State
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Library of New South Wales and gone through just about
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: every document ever written that contains parenting advice for the
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: last 100, 150 years. And his brand new book, which
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: has been out for a couple of weeks now, How
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: to Ruin a Child, is delightful. It's hilarious. It's also
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: horrifying in equal measure. But the backstory is the most
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: interesting part to me. Richard grew up with a mother
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: who invented her own past and a father who was absent,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: barely showed up. So today we're asking, how did he
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: turn out? What did he do differently with his own kids?
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: And is that why he needed to write a parenting
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: book about all of the world's worst parenting advice that
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Australian parents have been given for 100 plus years? Find
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: out more in this fascinating conversation next. So good of
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: you to join us on the Happy Families podcast, where
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: you get real parenting solutions every single day. My name's Dr.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Justin Coulson. This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. Today
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: I'm joined by somebody who I have listened to on
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: the radio for literally decades, Richard Glover. If you're not
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: from Sydney, you may not be completely familiar with him,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: but I think most of the country knows Richard because
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: of his writing and his radio. One of Australia's best-loved writers, broadcasters.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: For years, he hosted ABC Radio Sydney's Drive program. He
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: wrote a weekly humour column in the Sydney Morning Herald
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: for a couple of decades, I think, and has also
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: written for overseas publications. And he's got this bestseller that
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: came out a couple of years ago called The Land
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Before Avocado. Also, an incredible book called Flesh Wounds, which
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: was voted one of the year's top five books by
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: viewers of ABC TV's The Book Club and won Biography
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: of the Year in the Reader's Choice category at the
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: 2016 Australian Book Industry Awards. I could keep on going,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: but let's wrap it up with this. He lives in
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Sydney with the screenwriter and author Deborah Oswald. Richard, thanks
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: for being on the podcast. I'm feeling a little bit
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: nervous having you on here because of your incredible background
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: in history. Thanks for being here.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Don't be insane. I'm very pleased to be on the podcast.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: This seems like a chapter from history, I know, but
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I think it's a message for parents now because every
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: single mad bit of advice you come across on Instagram
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: or YouTube or anything like that, and you think, this
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: is insane, but it might be the thing I need
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: to help me right now. If you're see it through
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: the lens of history, you'll know that all these strange
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: ideas have been tried before, usually in about 1920, and
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: usually have proved total failures. And what parents need to
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: do is trust themselves and understand that nearly all good
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: parenting happens in this large forgiving zone between all these
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: weird and wacky ideas. And the result is usually a
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: perfectly decent human being. So I hope it's a reassuring
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: book for parents now. You mentioned flesh wounds. I also
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: think part of the reason I wrote the book is
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: to think about the parenting I received. And one of
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: the things about the lens of history is that you
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: become a bit more forgiving of your own parents because
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: you realize, for my generation, there were loving parents around,
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: I'm sure. But a lot of parents were a little
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: bit stitched up, a little bit not wanting to touch
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: or cuddle their children. They certainly, the generation of parents
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: I grew up with, they certainly didn't like praising their children.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: They thought it was really wrong to give a child
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: any praise at all. And you can feel embittered about
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: all this and, why did they do this to poor
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: little me? But again, if you read the history, you'll
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: realize they were just following orders, actually. And the orders
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: came not only from specialist books, but they came from
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: government departments and baby health centers. And it was absolutely
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: the universal language of parenting really up until about 1980
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: in this country was babies should cry. It's their form
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: of exercise. You shouldn't cuddle them. It'll turn them into
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: sport little tyrants for life. Don't feed them on demand.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Feed them by the clock and don't ever praise them.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: because that will, you know, they'll really go mad then
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: and they'll get tickets. The phrase you use, they'll get
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: tickets on themselves. And it's sort of, it's relieving in
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: a way to understand that this was a very common thing.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Parents exercised it to different degrees, but it was a
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: very common thing. And so understand it, feel more forgiving
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: towards your own parents, understand a bit more about how
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: you were brought up and how it fitted the cultural
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: norms of the time. And if you're a parent right
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: now or a grandparent right now, don't listen to the
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: mad voices suggesting weird theories.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Let's set the scene. What year were you born?
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: I was born in 1958. Okay.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: So your parents would have been born in the 1930s.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: So we're going back about 100 years or thereabouts. When
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: I think about all of the things that you've described there,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: and I think about parents today, There are a couple
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: of things that stand out to me. The first is this.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: 1958 is the year that Webster's Dictionary put the word
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: parenting in as a word. Until 1958, there was no
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: technical word parenting. That would be like me saying, hey,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: how's the wifing going? How's the husbanding going? It was
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: a noun, not a verb. But parenting as a word
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: didn't really come into common use until well into the 60s,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: even the 70s. The word playdate didn't even exist until 1984.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Do you think that parents were as caught up in
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: being good parents then as they are today.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I absolutely do. I mean, they didn't use it
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: as a verb, that's true, but they talked about scientific
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: mothering and scientific parenting and their view about scientific was
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: that you didn't touch the child and you didn't cuddle
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: the child. And they very much believe that you should
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: sort of try to discipline yourself against your natural urge
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: to cuddle the child. The good mother, said Truby King,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: refuses to give in to that desire to give a
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: child snuggling warmth. It's so weird that he uses such
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: a tender phrase when he's trying to say, don't do it.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think they did take it seriously. So
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: a lot of this advice is in the official government,
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: Queensland government, New South Wales government, Victoria, they're handing out
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: these official guidebooks free to every single parent. So millions
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: of people have been given these books and they're very strict.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: And the reason I've got the title of How to
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Ruin a Child is that they all say, do it
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: this way or you will ruin the child. Cuddle them
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: once and you'll ruin the child. Feed them on demand
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: and you'll ruin the child. And I think some people
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: follow the advice very strictly and Other people break the
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: advice and then feel terribly guilty about it. I mean,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: almost whatever, however people react, there's this sort of big
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: impact of the advice. And I do think they try
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: to take it seriously. I mean, there was a lot
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: of humor in this book, I hope. There's a lot
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: of pain in it too. The country, it seems to me,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: is full of babies screaming their hearts out on one
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: side of a closed door and a mother screaming on
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: the other side of the closed door, also crying because
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: she wants to feed that crying baby. She wants to
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: cuddle that crying baby. And yet she'd been told in
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: such a fierce way that it would be wrong. They
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: named Edith Lyons, no less, who was the first woman
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: elected to the House of Reps, wife of the Prime Minister,
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: Jo Lyons, first woman in Cabinet. She followed these rules.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: She had 12 children, which is a lot of crying
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: to ignore. Yeah. And she wrote later about how upset
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: she was in reflecting on it. She believed she'd caused
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: at least one of those children permanent harm by following
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: these dreadful rules. I think things happen in Australia a
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: little later than they happen elsewhere. I think it really
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: is in about late 70s from early 80s that things
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: radically change and then there's this great liberal period where
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: children got spocked when they should have got spanked, as
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: one person said. But then the conservatives came back. And
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: so there's this really interesting tussle between these groups. And
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: they've all got these very strong, fierce ideas with the
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: poor parents, in a way, stuck in the middle of it,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: trying to understand who to ignore and who to accept.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: And everyone bullying them about their own natural instincts, which
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: are usually pretty good.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Today I'm joined by somebody who I have listened to
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: on the radio for literally decades, Richard Glover. He's literally
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: sat in the State Library of New South Wales and
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: gone through just about every document ever written that contains
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: parenting advice for the last 100, 150 years. And his
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: brand new book, which has been out for a couple
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: of weeks now, How to Ruin a Child. It's hilarious.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: It's also horrifying in equal measure. I read the book
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: and I literally read the whole thing. And even though
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: I've written a book where I've gone into the history
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: of parenting, what was considered good parenting advice, but was
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: really either reckless or harmful. And I just was consistently
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: shaking my head and thinking about this. And yet some
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: of the organizations that were founded on the principles from
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: these parenting experts still exist and thrive in Australia today.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: They're still taking parents in who are feeling lost and
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: struggling and dispensing arguably much of the same advice that
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: was terrible 120 years ago and is even more terrible today.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Well, certainly the internet is full of, you know, it's
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: a vulgar acronym, so I won't use it. But, you know,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: there's one, you know, quite popular thing at the moment
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: on American Insta and YouTube where it's basically just this
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: really harsh platform If you cross the line, you'll find
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: out is the non-rude way of saying it. But, you know,
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: it's full of little videos people make of locking, you know,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: toddlers out the front door and getting a teenager's iPad
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: and throwing it out the second floor window and smashing
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: it and say, well, I told you. Running over video.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Games with a lawnmower, that kind of thing.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there are all these people commenting saying, oh,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: this is marvellous. So, again, the lens of history is
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: helpful because, This sort of harsh parenting has been tried
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: lots of times and nearly all the time, 20 or
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: 30 years later, people really regret that they did it.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: And there's something reassuring about the idea that's been tried
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: before and found to be wanting.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Something that you may not know about me, Richard, is
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: that I do this because I was a bad parent.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: So my wife and I had our first couple of kids.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Our three-nature wouldn't go to sleep one day. I absolutely
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: lost the plot, did all the wrong things. My grandmother
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: once chased me and told me that I was very
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: hard and I responded with pride and said, you need
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: to be, otherwise they'll wrap you around their little finger
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: and there's no getting away from them. So I really
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: believed that my children would be different because I was
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: going to be harsh and punitive. And one day that
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: harshness and punitive caught up or my conscience caught up
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: with the harshness and the punitive way that I was
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: dealing with the kids. And that led to me leaving
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: a radio career. going back to school and spending eight
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: and a half consecutive years of full-time studies before I
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: could get the qualifications that I gained. And after I
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: did some university work, I started doing public parenting work
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: because it had turned my family around. The regret, the pain,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: you described it so well at the start of the conversation,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: but that's literally why I do what I do. So
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: I want to hit you with a quick lightning round,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: just five very fast, you know how lightning round works.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: You've been on the radio for long enough. You know
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: exactly the deal. One sentence answers and no elaboration required.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: It's always unfair and it's always fun. I'm going to
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: start with one that's all about me. I read the
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: book and then I blurbed the book, talking about how
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: you knew what you were talking about in the book.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: And my final words were, trust me, I'm an expert.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: Based on the fact that this whole book is all
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: about how the experts were wrong, how much should my
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: podcast listeners trust me?
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Nearly all the early experts had no children of their own.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: You and Carly have six, which I think is overdoing
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: it when it comes to the coalface.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: All right. Some other lightning round questions that are not
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: about me. What's a phrase that your parents used that
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: you swore you never would say, but all of a
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: sudden there was your mother in your larynx? She popped
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: out and said it to your kids.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Eat your dinner. Eat your greens. And I still say
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: it to my grandchildren. Eat them. One more. And I
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: know parenting experts say don't do this, but one more
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: bit of broccoli and we can leave the table.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: What's one piece of terrible historical advice that you secretly
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: think probably had a point?
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: They talk about the dummy, you know, the use of
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: the dummy in the most fierce terms. And, you know, again,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: this is the government guidebook. They tell you if you
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: do it, you will kill the child. And they've got
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: little illustrations of the flies landing on the dummy. And
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: then it says in big print, again, this is in
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: the government guidebook handed out to every mother. It says
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: the fly, the child's enemy. the undertaker's friend. I think
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: the language is terrible. It is. But still, probably if
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: you're trying to establish breastfeeding, you know, you could give
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: the dummy a rest.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: What Richard is, and this is a personal question, but
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: hopefully we can have some fun with it. What's the
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: worst thing that you did as a parent that probably
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: would have made those 1950s experts proud?
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Look, I don't think we were overly harsh. We did
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: take our one-year-old to England for a year and lived
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: in the southeast of England with eight children. Right. It
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: was at that time. I was the correspondent for the
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Sydney Morning Herald there, and you'd go to these beautiful
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: English country pubs with the dogs sleeping in front of
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: the fireplace, and you'd go in there as a tiny
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: little family, and you'd be ushered through this warm, snug,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: fabulous room into literally a garden tin shed at the back.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Because you brought your child. You and another sort of poor,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: benighted English family would be served there, the bangers and mash.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: in some ill-ventilated, ill-lit and ill-heated shed.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, it kind of feels like some snotty cafes today, honestly. But, hey,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: last one. How would your mother have reviewed this book?
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, I think she'd say, I was right about the ears, darling. Right.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, fantastic. Fantastic. There are so many more questions that
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: I'd love to ask you, both about the book and
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: about your life and your radio career and the work
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: that you've done in so many of your other books
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: that have been so highly praised. But our time is
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: more than gone. So let me wrap up with just
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: one final question, Richard. You highlight that the conclusion that
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: you've come to is that parenting is tough no matter
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: how you're doing it, no matter when you're doing it,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: no matter where you're doing it. And the outcome, in
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: your words, is I think you said it is a
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: perfectly fine human most of the time. So as the
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: man who has read every bad manual ever printed, every
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: newspaper article, every government tracked on this and survived your
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: own what I would call precarious childhood, what's the one
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: piece of advice that that you would stand behind regardless
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: of the day, the date, the era, the family? What's
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: the one piece of parenting advice that matters more than any?
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Can I sort of make it two? It's one sentence
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: with a sub. Of course.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: I do that all the time myself.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Go for it. Look, I think, you know, children need stability,
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: a sense of order, a sense of rules, and they
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: need a lot of love. That's all. That's all. They
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: do need some rules, age appropriate. Of course, toddlers can
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: manipulate parents. Of course, they can when there's ice cream involved.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: But the idea of the manipulative child starts in all
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: this writing very early. The official guidebook says don't respond
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: to a child's crying by cuddling them or they'll grow
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: up thinking they can manipulate you. Well, four-day-old babies cannot
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: manipulate you. It doesn't work like that. And the idea
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: that parents were so consistently told this for so many
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: decades and then believed it and acted upon it is
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: kind of one of the great tragedies, I think, of
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: the last century or two. And it's worth recording this
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: history and realizing that we shouldn't repeat it.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: I wish we had more time. How to Ruin a Child,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Richard Glover. The book is available now. There's a lot
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: of work that goes into writing a book and it's
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: really hard to sell books, but good books should be bought.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: So if you've enjoyed this conversation, please go out and
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: grab a copy from a bookstore or from online, How
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: to Ruin a Child by Richard Glover. It's heartbreaking, it's poignant,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: but it's also so uplifting and so helpful. And ultimately,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: like you said, Richard, the parenting advice from the parenting
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: expert to wrap up is so similar to what you've said.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: I think kids need three things to thrive. They need love,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: They need limits and they need laughter. If we can
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: give them those three things, they'll live a rich childhood.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being so generous with your time. It's
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: been a real pleasure and a real privilege.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much. Thanks, Justin.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: We will link to How to Ruin a Child in
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the show notes. Grab a copy of it today, How
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: to Ruin a Child by Richard Glover. The podcast returns
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: tomorrow with more of your tricky questions, plus the latest
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: science on Thursday, talking about how we can raise our
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: families to flourish and thrive. according to the experts. I
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: promise you, it's good science. It's good scientific parenting. All
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: that and a whole lot more the rest of this
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: week on the Happy Families podcast, sound and audio engineering
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: by Justin Rawan from Bridge Media. Mim Hammonds provides our
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: additional admin support. And if you'd like more info to
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: raise your family happier, once again, reach the book or happyfamilies.com.au.