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S4E7 - How Do I Handle Aggressive Behavior Without Punishment? · Play Therapy Parenting: Real Parenting Questions Answered by a Child Therapist

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  You're listening to the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast
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  with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
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  Hi,
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  I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
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  The Kid Counselor.
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  This is the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast where
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  I answer real parenting questions
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  about behavior,
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  emotions,
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  and the parent-child relationship.
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  In today's episode,
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  I'm answering a question from Stacy.
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  Stacy,
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  thank you for the email.
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  And this is about her
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  child,
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  actually a twin,
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  but one of the two we're talking about.
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  And aggressive behaviors,
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  big emotions,
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  all kinds of things,
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  but not specifically just about the behaviors,
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  but actually about implementing child-centered play therapy,
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  parenting approaches
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  to help with those behaviors.
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  Actively working with a play therapist,
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  actually,
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  in fact,
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  one of the play therapists that I coached personally.
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  So,
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  shout out to,
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  you know who you are
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  and
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  really excited
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  for this opportunity because Stacy,
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  as you're working,
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  With a child-centered play therapist
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  and then you're also implementing strategies at home,
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  that is an ideal scenario
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  for your daughter's ability to
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  work through this in the most healthy and effective ways.
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  We know that when parents are involved and invested,
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  that we have more favorable outcomes.
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  So,
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  with the support of a play therapist as well as the work you're doing at home,
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  this is going to equip your daughter with
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  the ideal scenario to really heal through all of this stuff.
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  So,
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  thanks for the email.
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  I'll read part of what was shared and then we'll dive in together.
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  So this
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  child has been adopted
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  and is a twin.
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  There were issues in utero,
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  so,
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  you know,
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  obviously comes from
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  a different kind of background
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  and a background over which we have no control
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  and that.
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  Always plays a factor,
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  you know,
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  for foster families and adoptive families
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  that plays a role in
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  the process of healing for a child because
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  we didn't have any governance over what
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  happened before they were in our possession.
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  And,
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  you know,
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  obviously this is a contributing factor,
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  so that's important to note as well.
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  We've been seeing aggressive behaviors,
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  biting,
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  hitting,
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  scratching in response to big emotions.
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  She was not sleeping well.
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  Her OT was helping her with sensory issues.
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  And has been helping her with the zones of regulation.
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  She can articulate things after the fact,
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  but cannot control her behavior during the situation.
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  She seemed to be going from 0 to 100 in 0.005 seconds
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  with very little warning.
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  That is a very brief amount of time.
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  All right,
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  so let me pause on that note,
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  Stacy.
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  So,
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  She could articulate things after the fact but
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  not control her behavior during the situation.
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  We know this.
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  This is developmentally appropriate.
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  This is age-appropriate,
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  very known
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  process.
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  Emotions override the brain.
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  So,
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  as emotions escalate,
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  they get bigger and bigger and bigger.
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  It essentially trips a switch,
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  if you like to think about it that way,
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  and tells the brain,
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  go have a little nap.
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  So,
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  the brain disappears.
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  The child behaves exclusively out of emotions,
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  trying to show you
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  how she feels,
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  trying to help you understand how big this is for her,
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  and
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  there's no cognitive component there whatsoever.
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  Once the emotions start to de-escalate
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  and they come back down a little bit,
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  the switch gets tripped again.
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  Brain comes back into the picture
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  and says,
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  What in the world were you doing?
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  You didn't need to scream.
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  You didn't need to yell.
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  You didn't need to throw something.
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  You didn't need to do whatever.
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  But in the moment,
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  there was no ability
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  for the brain to weigh in.
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  There's a hierarchy,
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  and emotions are always going to trump the brain.
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  That's true of adults.
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  Please don't think that's isolated just to children.
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  There are plenty of adults in this world
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  that
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  just do something.
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  I mean,
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  you ever heard the phrase
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  they.
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  You need to think before you act.
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  There's a reason why we say that,
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  because there's plenty of adults
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  that just act
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  in reaction.
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  And if they were to think about it,
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  they would probably not do
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  said action
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  in their reaction,
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  but they don't.
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  They just dive straight into,
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  I feel this,
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  so I'm gonna do this,
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  and then after the,
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  after the fact,
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  there's a lot of regret.
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  So,
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  this is universal,
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  but even more pronounced with children.
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  So that in and of itself,
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  she could
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  share after the fact but not control the behavior during the situation.
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  She's not going to be able to do that for quite a while.
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  I mean,
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  13 is the earliest
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  development of abstract reasoning,
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  and she's a long way from there.
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  So,
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  that is a maturity
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  process
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  and that's something that's going to have to be
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  established a little bit over the course of childhood.
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  OK,
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  so let me continue.
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  We've done 4 weeks of play therapy.
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  I've been binge,
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  binge listening to your podcasts.
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  I'm thrilled to hear that you find them helpful,
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  Stacy.
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  Currently in the summer of 2022.
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  The therapist
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  has us trying choice giving.
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  We saw some results right away.
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  I'm not the best at it,
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  but I'm continuing to try.
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  I have a hard time giving choices before she doesn't do what we're asking her to do.
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  For example,
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  when we tell her it's time to come get inside for dinner,
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  and she runs off before I remember to give her choices.
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  I also sometimes have a hard time coming up with a choice that is not punishment.
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  Any suggestions on how to do those better?
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  All right,
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  so,
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  really helpful scenarios,
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  we can certainly talk through that.
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  One of the most important things that we do is recognize that
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  we're giving empowerment choices as often as possible.
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  We're giving enforcement choices to address a limit.
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  They function differently.
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  So,
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  Stacy,
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  in your scenario,
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  She
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  is outside playing
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  and you know that it's time for dinner.
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  That's a very easy empowerment choice.
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  So,
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  Daughter,
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  do you choose to come in in 2 minutes or do you choose to come in in 3 minutes,
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  which do you choose?
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  See how now I'm not even going outside and saying,
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  it's time for dinner,
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  come inside.
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  That takes away all of her power.
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  She feels at the mercy of the circumstance and your authority.
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  But if you lead with the choice of when she comes in,
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  it's not a matter of whether she wants to or not.
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  It's almost guarantee she's not gonna want to come in for dinner,
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  especially if she's having fun outside.
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  That's a pretty standard childhood
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  norm.
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  I don't wanna come in for dinner and stop what I'm doing.
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  OK.
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  So,
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  we're not gonna focus on,
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  do you wanna come in or not?
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  It's when do you choose to come in.
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  You don't really care whether she comes in in 2 minutes or 3 minutes,
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  so that's why we would give that empowerment choice.
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  So we're not even going to say it's time for dinner.
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  We're going to just say.
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  OK,
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  daughter,
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  you can choose to come in in 2 minutes for dinner or
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  you can choose to come in in 3 minutes for dinner.
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  Which do you choose?
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  And then a hard time coming up with a choice that's not a punishment.
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  I suspect you're talking about enforcement choices
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  which are tied to the limit.
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  And in that case,
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  you're giving choices
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  that are based on the child's currency.
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  So,
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  let's say she refuses to come in,
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  you give another choice,
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  set the limit,
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  she refuses to come in,
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  you give another choice,
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  you set the limit,
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  she refuses to come in.
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  OK,
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  by that point,
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  you're moving to ultimate limit setting at that
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  moment.
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  So then it's an if then
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  choice.
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  So,
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  daughter,
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  you really want to stay outside and play,
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  but it's time for dinner.
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  If you choose to come in right now,
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  you choose.
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  Favorable
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  outcome
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  based on her currency.
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  What does she really love?
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  What's really important to her?
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  What is motivating for her?
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  Is it dessert?
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  Is it?
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  Books
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  after dinner,
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  is it?
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  Getting to.
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  Snuggle on the couch and.
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  Play a game,
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  whatever it is that's important to her,
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  we're going to work that into the choice.
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  So,
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  if you choose to come in right now,
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  you choose to have
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  your book snuggle time on the couch after dinner.
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  If you choose not to come in right now,
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  you choose not to have your book snuggle time on the couch after dinner,
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  which do you choose?
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  There's no punishment in that choice.
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  There is
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  a more positive outcome,
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  and there's a less positive outcome.
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  But your only job is to enforce the choice that's made.
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  And so whatever she chooses,
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  she either chooses to come in right away,
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  you validate that out loud.
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  You chose to have your book and snuggle time on the
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  couch because you chose to come in for dinner right now,
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  or
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  you chose not to have your snuggle book time tonight
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  because you chose not to come in right away.
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  That will over time condition her
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  that she does not want to lose the things that are important to her.
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  That is actually
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  more painful
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  than the pain of coming inside for dinner.
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  Kids are always trying to avoid
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  the outcomes that they don't want
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  because they're emotional.
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  So,
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  which is the lesser of two evils?
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  Is it coming in for dinner but getting to keep my book snuggle time?
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  Yeah,
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  that's probably better
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  than staying out here for another two minutes,
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  still having to come inside for dinner anyway,
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  and then I lose my book and snuggle time on the couch.
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  That's far worse.
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  I'll just come inside.
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  It's conditioned.
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  OK,
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  I'm also struggling with limits,
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  especially when she's choosing to hit,
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  kick,
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  and attack us or her brother.
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  I keep telling her people aren't for hitting,
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  but struggle after that.
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  I'm trying to reflect feelings too,
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  but struggle,
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  especially when it's not in an aggressive moment.
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  OK.
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  So,
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  it needs to be established
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  long before the behavior is taking place.
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  We establish household rules
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  as a part of our CCPT parenting approach.
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  So it is set at a neutral,
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  calm,
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  emotionless time.
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  And it's very clear,
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  it's made very clear,
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  this is an expectation universally in our home.
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  It might be speaking kindly,
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  it might be not yelling,
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  it might be
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  not hurting anyone else.
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  It might be.
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  Obeying immediately,
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  it might be doing chores.
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  What the household rules are,
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  they're going to be different for everybody,
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  obviously.
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  But we establish those at a neutral,
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  calm time.
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  So,
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  we have a family meeting,
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  we do it before bed,
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  we do it in the morning when everybody's fresh and bright-eyed,
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  and we're essentially saying
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  this is an important established expectation in our home.
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  You know,
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  the phrase that we often teach in
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  the parent training that's related to child-centered play therapy
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  is we're about to institute a new and
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  significant policy within the confines of this household.
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  The premise is it gets your kids' attention.
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  You don't have to say those words exactly,
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  but
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  it's very clear,
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  oh,
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  OK,
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  I don't even know what was just said,
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  but it sounded important,
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  and every time
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  my life's about to change,
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  mom or dad or whoever says this,
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  so I think I should probably pay attention.
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  You're making it very clear this is important.
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  So once the expectation is established,
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  so Stacy,
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  you might say.
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  The
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  New and significant
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  policy
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  in our home.
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  Is that no one in the house is ever for hurting.
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  No matter what happens,
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  no matter how upset we are,
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  no matter how we feel.
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  No one is ever for hurting.
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  OK,
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  we reiterate it several times,
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  we move on.
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  That's what you fall back on in the moment.
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  So,
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  if she starts to hit or kick or whatever,
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  first of all,
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  we recognize that's age-appropriate behavior.
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  So we have to understand
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  what's age appropriate versus what is extreme.
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  But then we say,
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  you know,
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  your brother is never for hurting.
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  OK,
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  reiterate the expectation she may be able to calm down.
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  She may be able to stop the behavior.
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  If she can't,
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  you go through the limit.
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  You're really upset,
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  you're really angry,
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  you're really mad,
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  you're really frustrated,
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  you're really disappointed,
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  you're really whatever,
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  whatever she's feeling,
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  you're really fill in the blank,
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  but your brother is never for hurting.
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  You can choose to tell me.
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  How you feel,
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  you can choose to tell me what he's doing.
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  You can choose to tell me that you're angry.
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  You can choose to tell me that you don't want to be with him right now.
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  Or you can choose to,
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  is,
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  is the need a release
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  because sometimes just saying,
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  hey,
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  my brother's ticking me off isn't enough.
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  Maybe it's,
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  I need to hit or kick or punch something.
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  So you can choose to punch your stuffed animals in your room.
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  You can choose to punch your pillow,
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  you can choose to punch your bed.
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  You can choose to punch the cushions on the couch.
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  There are alternatives if the need is the release of the aggression.
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  You're gonna have to feel that out,
• 12:56
  Stacy.
• 12:57
  You're gonna need to find out
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  what is it exactly that she's trying to.
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  have met in the way of a need.
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  Is it just I need someone to understand how big these feelings are,
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  or I need to release some of this emotion?
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  Those are two very different things and therefore
• 13:13
  we would change the choices that we provide.
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  So that's the way that you can handle
• 13:18
  the ultimate limits.
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  And
• 13:22
  again,
• 13:22
  we go back to currency.
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  If you choose to.
• 13:27
  Behavior,
• 13:28
  hit,
• 13:28
  kick,
• 13:28
  punch,
• 13:29
  whatever the scenarios,
• 13:30
  your brother.
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  You're choosing to,
• 13:33
  what matters?
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  Is it
• 13:35
  be in your room for
• 13:37
  10 minutes
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  alone?
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  If
• 13:40
  that would really bother her,
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  that would be a helpful currency.
• 13:43
  Some kids would just play in their room for 10 minutes and they'd be happy as clams.
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  So
• 13:47
  it would be kid by kid situationally specific,
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  but
• 13:50
  you have to figure out what matters.
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  If you choose not to hurt your brother,
• 13:54
  you choose
• 13:56
  not to have that outcome.
• 13:59
  That's all very clear and established before
• 14:02
  it actually happens.
• 14:03
  And then
• 14:04
  final question,
• 14:05
  how to handle when one spouse is further along
• 14:07
  in implementing the pillars and focusing on the relationship?
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  Do you have suggestions on how to help the other along and help them to
• 14:13
  not do or say things that might
• 14:15
  damage the relationship without undermining their authority?
• 14:18
  All right,
• 14:18
  really helpful question because this is one of the
• 14:21
  most common scenarios that we see as CCPTs.
• 14:25
  One parent is
• 14:27
  more involved in the knowledge,
• 14:28
  the training,
• 14:29
  the acquisition of information,
• 14:31
  and so then they're trying to pass along the information to the other parent.
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  But the one doing the research and doing the learning is usually more
• 14:38
  able to implement it than the one that's being told about it.
• 14:41
  So,
• 14:41
  very common dynamic.
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  And
• 14:44
  the most helpful way to manage that is
• 14:47
  We don't address anything in the moment.
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  So no matter what happens,
• 14:51
  even if you go,
• 14:52
  oh my gosh,
• 14:53
  that's going to damage the relationship,
• 14:55
  or like,
• 14:55
  oh my gosh,
• 14:56
  like the child feels so
• 14:57
  unheard right now,
• 14:58
  or oh my gosh,
• 14:59
  like this would have been such a helpful moment to give a choice,
• 15:02
  whatever we think,
• 15:03
  because we understand the skills more intentionally,
• 15:07
  we're not going to say anything in the moment.
• 15:09
  But we make a mental note
• 15:11
  and then later when,
• 15:12
  you know,
• 15:12
  it's just the two of you,
• 15:14
  you're able to sit down and say,
• 15:16
  hey,
• 15:17
  I noticed earlier
• 15:18
  that
• 15:18
  you said or did X,
• 15:20
  Y,
• 15:20
  Z when such and such happened.
• 15:23
  One of the things that I've been learning,
• 15:24
  one of the things that's been really helpful.
• 15:27
  is
• 15:28
  you can
• 15:29
  give choices.
• 15:29
  Let me show you what that looks like.
• 15:31
  You can reflect feelings.
• 15:32
  Let me tell you why that's helpful and what that looks like.
• 15:35
  So,
• 15:35
  you say,
• 15:36
  uh,
• 15:36
  it's actually the same concept as what we do with kids.
• 15:39
  We wait until it's a calm,
• 15:40
  neutral moment
• 15:42
  to have the important dialogue.
• 15:44
  So,
• 15:44
  make a mental note of when it's happening in real time.
• 15:48
  And then save it where there's receptivity
• 15:51
  and there's a willingness to actually hear and and take the information in.
• 15:56
  When it's actively happening,
• 15:57
  that would be when it would undermine the authority.
• 16:00
  So we're we're just going to recognize that as I would have handled it differently,
• 16:05
  but
• 16:06
  we'll just let this play out for now and then we'll talk about it later,
• 16:09
  kind of scenario.
• 16:10
  And then there was kind of like a postscript that was added in there.
• 16:13
  I got thinking about using this with our
• 16:15
  son who is not developmentally his chronological age.
• 16:18
  I'm assuming it works the same for him,
• 16:20
  but it has to be done at his developmental age,
• 16:22
  any adjustments.
• 16:23
  So,
• 16:24
  for a child that is not developmentally on target per se,
• 16:28
  in other words,
• 16:29
  like other peers
• 16:30
  would be in a different level,
• 16:32
  and that can be
• 16:34
  in all kinds of contexts.
• 16:35
  So,
• 16:36
  physically,
• 16:36
  mentally,
• 16:37
  emotionally,
• 16:37
  psychologically,
• 16:38
  so on and so forth.
• 16:39
  So if there's any kind of delay
• 16:41
  or anything that would cause the child to not be at the same level as peers,
• 16:46
  that's actually one of the most ideally
• 16:47
  suited scenarios for a child-centered play therapy
• 16:50
  because even with the delay,
• 16:52
  even with those scenarios,
• 16:54
  CCPT is appropriate because it doesn't require the cognitive ability,
• 16:59
  it doesn't require the verbal ability.
• 17:00
  So we actually don't make any adjustments
• 17:03
  to working with children that are maybe behind level.
• 17:08
  Because
• 17:08
  it meets them where they are developmentally.
• 17:10
  I mean,
• 17:10
  CCPT is appropriate for kids as young as 3.
• 17:14
  Kind of an older two will sometimes also work.
• 17:18
  So,
• 17:19
  if your son is at a 2.5 year old level or up,
• 17:23
  it's still going to be fully effective.
• 17:25
  If he's a little bit below that,
• 17:27
  maybe he's at like a 1.5 or a 2 year old level,
• 17:30
  all the skills can still be implemented.
• 17:33
  They can still be practiced.
• 17:35
  But it's going to take a little bit more
• 17:37
  before some of those things start to register,
• 17:39
  but you can certainly still engage with the child-centered approach
• 17:43
  with your son,
• 17:45
  and then as he continues to mature and develop,
• 17:48
  things will start to be a little bit easier for him to comprehend.
• 17:51
  But many of the parents with whom we
• 17:53
  work will actually start practicing on their infants
• 17:55
  because it gives them time to get used to the language
• 17:59
  and the engagement and the dialogue and things like that for
• 18:02
  when the child is old enough to understand the information.
• 18:05
  So,
• 18:05
  Stacy,
• 18:06
  thank you so much for the questions.
• 18:07
  I hope that all of you found that helpful.
• 18:09
  It's really important to practice the skills that we learn.
• 18:13
  And I'm really encouraged,
• 18:15
  Stacy,
• 18:15
  that you're actually trying to integrate these into your parenting approach.
• 18:19
  That's what this podcast is all about.
• 18:21
  It's giving you practical,
• 18:23
  effective tools.
• 18:26
  Founded in
• 18:27
  a model that we know is proven effective.
• 18:30
  So this is taking the guesswork
• 18:32
  out of a parenting approach.
• 18:33
  And so thank you so much for the email.
• 18:35
  If y'all want to reach out,
• 18:36
  I'd love to hear from you,
• 18:37
  brenna@thekidcounselor.com
• 18:40
  We'll talk again soon.
• 18:41
  I love you.
• 18:41
  Keep loving on your kids.
• 18:43
  Bye.
• 18:43
  Thank you for listening to
• 18:45
  the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
• 18:49
  For more episodes and just subscribe to our newsletter,
• 18:52
  please go to www.playtherapyparenting.com.