Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Hard Fun is More Fun

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Hard Fun is More Fun · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Today it's
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: a doctor's Desk episode where we have a look at
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: some brand new, just published developmental psychology research from Harvard
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: University where we consider what's more fun, hard fun or
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: easy fun? Will kids enjoy playing for fun more or
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: less than playing to win? Just competition inspire kids or
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: turn them off? We find out that based on the
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: latest research. Next on the Happy Families Podcast, stay with us.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Happy Families podcast, where you get
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: real parenting solutions every single day. This is Australia's most
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Coulson. Kylie,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: I have a question for you if I was to
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: say to you, what would you rather? Would you rather
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  Speaker 1: have fun that's easy, you rather have fun that's hard?
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  Speaker 1: That is, what is more fun for you doing something
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: that is relaxing and cruisy and doesn't require much of you?
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  Speaker 1: Or is it more fun to do something that really
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  Speaker 1: stretches you, pushes you and challenges you?
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  Speaker 2: So I would I don't think there's a single answer
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  Speaker 2: for this one. I think it really depends on Oh.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: My goodness, you're speaking like a scientist, say, I.
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  Speaker 2: Think It depends on where you're at in your life
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: and what your mood is.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: It depends on what time of day it is.
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  Speaker 2: Sometimes doing something really nice and relaxing feels fun, but
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  Speaker 2: when you're feeling vital and invigorated and feel like you've
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: got lots of life. The most fun comes when you're
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: actually challenging yourself.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, let's get a little bit more concrete. I want
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  Speaker 1: to talk about a study that's just been conducted and published.
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  Speaker 1: One of my favorite researchers in the whole wide world
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  Speaker 1: is a research called Alison Gopnik. She is one of
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  Speaker 1: about six or seven researchers who have all been involved
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: in this brand news study that has just been published.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: The article's been published in Developmental Psychology. It's one of
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: the world's leading developmental psychology journals. And this this, this
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  Speaker 1: is a place where people publish very serious, high quality studies.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: So we're looking here at a specific game. Let me
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  Speaker 1: give you the context of the game. Okay, Basically, you've
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  Speaker 1: got a whole bunch of kids, their age between five
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  Speaker 1: and ten, and the game is as follows. Here is
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  Speaker 1: your mission. Knock down six blocks on this rectangular space
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  Speaker 1: by tossing either bean bags or batons. I'm saying baton
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  Speaker 1: like I'm French, I'm not bat batons, you know what
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  Speaker 1: I like? Do you know what a baton is? A baton?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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  Speaker 1: Okay? Do I say baton or baton? And now I
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: don't even know how to say the word. Help me here,
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  Speaker 1: it's an it's a baton. But okay. So they're throwing
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  Speaker 1: either a baton or bean bags at the six blocks, which,
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  Speaker 1: if you're five to ten years old, could be potentially
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  Speaker 1: it could be a lot of fun. So again, if
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  Speaker 1: we go back to that question, do we want to
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  Speaker 1: make this hard and challenging or do we want to
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: make sure that we win? Which one is going to
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  Speaker 1: be more appealing to a five or ten year old
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  Speaker 1: winning or being challenged?
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to say being challenged every time.
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  Speaker 1: All right, let's have a look at what the research
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  Speaker 1: is found. So essentially, they talked to these kids and said,
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  Speaker 1: there are two different ways that you can play the game.
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  Speaker 1: You can either try to knock down all the blocks
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  Speaker 1: in order to win stickers. Okay, so you can win,
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  Speaker 1: or you can just play it for fun. And by
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  Speaker 1: playing it for fun, that might mean that you might
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  Speaker 1: decide to modify the game. In fact, you can modify
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  Speaker 1: the game whether you're trying to win or if you're
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  Speaker 1: playing for fun. You can do whatever you like. Here
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  Speaker 1: there aren't really any rules. So you might change the
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  Speaker 1: throwing distance and that's going to affect your ability to win.
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  Speaker 1: Or you could just change the color of the bean
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  Speaker 1: bags and the batons. The batons, I can't say it.
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  Speaker 1: I'm still stuck on it. The batons. That's obviously not
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  Speaker 1: going to affect the chance of winning, but it might
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  Speaker 1: be more fun because you get to throw the red
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  Speaker 1: one and the blue one and the green one, and
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  Speaker 1: or you can throw all three at once. Okay, so
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  Speaker 1: you've got different ways that you can modify the game.
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  Speaker 1: And essentially the research has just said to each child,
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  Speaker 1: how would you like to set up the game for
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  Speaker 1: both the win and the fun conditions? Ok we're going
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  Speaker 1: to do both. You're going to get to play for
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  Speaker 1: fun and you're going to get to play to win.
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  Speaker 1: How would you like to set up the game?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to take a stab in the dark.
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  Speaker 1: Go.
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  Speaker 2: If they were playing for fun, then I actually think
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  Speaker 2: that they would step away from the target, right, they
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  Speaker 2: would create more distance.
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  Speaker 1: So they challenge themselves. Yeah, okay, because this is meant
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  Speaker 1: to be about fund yep ye.
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  Speaker 2: And if they were playing to compete, then I would
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  Speaker 2: say that they would come in closer.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. If I'm going for the stick is, if I'm
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  Speaker 1: going for the prize, If I'm trying to defeat others,
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  Speaker 1: I want to increase my chances as much as possible.
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  Speaker 1: You're speaking like a scientist. We always joke about how
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: you don't like the Doctor's desk episodes, but I think
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  Speaker 1: that this is starting to infiltrate your psyche because they
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: were the hypotheses that the research has made. And I
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  Speaker 1: know some people might say, well, this comes from the
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  Speaker 1: University of to Do, of course, but we have to
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  Speaker 1: keep doing these research projects because in classrooms and in homes, kitchens,
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  Speaker 1: dining rooms, bedrooms, we're consistently setting things up like a game.
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  Speaker 1: We're setting things up as a competition, or we're trying
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  Speaker 1: to get kids to be quote unquote motivated by sticking
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  Speaker 1: these external things in their face. You can get the sticky,
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  Speaker 1: you can get the price, you can get the goodie.
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  Speaker 2: We're actually going the opposite way though, in a lot
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  Speaker 2: of cases, and when not providing our kids with the
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  Speaker 2: challenge they actually.
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  Speaker 1: Need potentially, which makes things boring. Boring, So let's talk
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  Speaker 1: about what the research has found, whether you're right or not,
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: and then I'm always right. Okay, well you are you are.
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  Speaker 1: The team's analysis showed, and I'm quoting here from an
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  Speaker 1: article from the British Psychological Society, that even the youngest
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  Speaker 1: children preferred easier win relevant settings when they were playing
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  Speaker 1: to win than when they were playing for fun. In
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  Speaker 1: other words, if there's something on the line, let's make
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  Speaker 1: this as easy as possible, I just need to get
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  Speaker 1: the goodie. In the fun condition, they didn't feel that
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  Speaker 1: the way that the game was set up matter at all.
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  Speaker 1: They just wanted to experiment, They wanted to challenge themselves,
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  Speaker 1: they wanted to have fun.
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  Speaker 2: And it did. I would assume if they hit it
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: or not, they just they're stretching themselves.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it does matter that they hit it simply because
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  Speaker 1: they want to hit it, because that's the challenge, right,
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  Speaker 1: that's inherent in it. But if they've moved twenty meters
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  Speaker 1: and they don't even know that they can throw the
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  Speaker 1: bean bag or the baton that far, then it's about
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  Speaker 1: experimenting and finding out After the break, let's talk about
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: what this means in our homes with our kids when
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: we're talking about their motivation for play, work and other challenges.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: We're back. This is the Happy Families podcast. Kylie. Let's
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: hit it. Take our messages from the research because we
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: are about giving you genuine repairing solutions. The first thing
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  Speaker 1: is this, when you remove competition, when you take away prizes,
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  Speaker 1: goodies and the chance of getting something, kids intrinsic orientation
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  Speaker 1: toward growth means that, as a general rule, they will
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  Speaker 1: pursue more challenge. That's the big take home message from
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  Speaker 1: this experiment.
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  Speaker 2: I know you're talking about five to ten year olds,
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  Speaker 2: but if we go back a couple of years to toddlers,
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  Speaker 2: there's no competition in.
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  Speaker 1: There, right, you're not seeing its three year old.
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  Speaker 2: Why at all to think about what anyone else is doing.
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  Speaker 2: But you watch the way they play, and they put
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  Speaker 2: their body on the line at every chance they get.
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  Speaker 1: They challenge themselves.
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  Speaker 2: They're constantly challenging themselves.
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  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what they do at the park, how
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  Speaker 1: they want to climb things that are way too big.
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  Speaker 1: They want to slide down the slide there's way too big,
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  Speaker 1: or climb up the slide the wrong way even though,
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  Speaker 1: or they push a.
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  Speaker 2: Dining chair over to the kitchen bench so they can
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  Speaker 2: get up on the kitchen bench because there's something there
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  Speaker 2: that they want.
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  Speaker 1: It's all about challenge.
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  Speaker 2: They're constantly challenging themselves.
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  Speaker 1: Now it's worth highlighting here though, And the researchers didn't
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  Speaker 1: point this out. If the activity is too hard, well,
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  Speaker 1: I was going to say just not interesting, so you
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  Speaker 1: might say too easy, or yes, potentially, if it is
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  Speaker 1: vastly too hard, you'll actually see that there is no motivation.
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  Speaker 1: Kids just looking to go I'm not confident, I'm not capable.
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  Speaker 1: I can't do it. So it is important that the
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  Speaker 1: settings are about right. And these Harvard researchers have stepped
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  Speaker 1: in to this situation and said, here's a game that
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  Speaker 1: we think you'll like. Okay, that is different to a
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  Speaker 1: lot of circumstances where we find kids, and that's why
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  Speaker 1: people use external motivators so very much. There's another thing
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  Speaker 1: that's worth highlighting, and that's as follows. If I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to play a game of ping pong, speaking from experience here,
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  Speaker 1: if I'm going to play a game of ping pong
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  Speaker 1: with a friend and we don't score, I'm bored within
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  Speaker 1: about ninety seconds.
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  Speaker 2: So I was going to say I play card games
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  Speaker 2: with the kids and a few times just can't be
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  Speaker 2: bothered scoring and there's just kind of almost no point
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  Speaker 2: right right to playing the game.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and usually that will be because we're not setting
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  Speaker 1: it up structurally, so we're orienting ourselves towards challenge. Now,
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  Speaker 1: let's say you and I were going to play some
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: ping pong and we decided that the whole object of this,
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: we're not just going to hit the ball across to
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  Speaker 1: one another. The object of this is to see if
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  Speaker 1: we can let the ball bounce once on our side,
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  Speaker 1: and then we've got to hit it as low to
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  Speaker 1: the ground as possible. So you know how in ping pong,
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  Speaker 1: I hit it over the net, it bounces on your
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  Speaker 1: side and then it's going to bounce onto the ground,
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  Speaker 1: and so my objective now is to get it as
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  Speaker 1: close to the ground as possible before I hit it
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  Speaker 1: back over the net, and it's still got to get in.
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  Speaker 1: Now I've created a level of challenge in our interaction.
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  Speaker 1: It's not about competition, it's just about having fun and exploring.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Or we're going to work on our behind the back shots,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: or we're going to work on our trying to get
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: the shot into the corner as close to the corner,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: as close to the edge as we can. So when
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: we do that, we can take scoring out of it.
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  Speaker 1: But we've introduced some other element of challenge. There's some
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: other purpose and that's the critical thing about the challenge
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  Speaker 1: that Alison Gopnik and her colleagues in this research study
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  Speaker 1: have done. They've said to the kids, there is a
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  Speaker 1: challenge here with this task. There is an objective. What
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  Speaker 1: we're trying to do is X, Y or z. If
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: you and I just stand on opposite sides of the
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: table and hit the ball to one another, played by
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  Speaker 1: the rules. Well we can play by the rules, but
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  Speaker 1: if there's no scoring, then there's no challenge. And my
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: point is you need to have an objective otherwise things
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  Speaker 1: are just not that exciting and that interesting.
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  Speaker 2: We're talking about kids challenging themselves, but essentially it really
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  Speaker 2: is about them being willing to take risks.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they want hard fun.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it has to be autonomous.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. They've got as soon as.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: You put a cave it on it, or you tell
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: them what they have to do it either is too hard,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: too easy, or it loses.
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  Speaker 1: Its Let me tweak that just a bit. I know
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  Speaker 1: you're searching for a word, but I need just a
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: gentle tweak here. You're saying, as soon as you tell
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: them what to do, it's going to lose interest or
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: motivation for them. But that's not quite right. You can
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: tell them what to do and so long as they
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: see the value in it. So long as they identify
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: the value, they endorse the activity, and therefore they will
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: be involved. It's when we're asking them to do something
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: that just can't see the purpose or value in that's
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: when we start to see the decrease in motivation. Just
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: one more quick thought that I think really rams this home,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: and it's a great way to end the pod. One
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: of the most influential books in my life is a
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: book called Punished by Rewards biolthic hone Punished by Rewards,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: the Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive plans, A's Praise and
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: other bribes. And in the book, which was written in
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: the early nineties, I might add, he reflects on the
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: very principles that had already been discovered that underpin what
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: we're reading about and talking about in today's doctor's desk.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: And this is what he says. He says, it's not
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: entirely accurate to say that when we are working for rewards,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: we just want fast and frequent success, Which is what
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  Speaker 1: you could argue with these kids, right They want fast success,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: they want frequent success, which is why they've increased the
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: odds of their winning by moving as close as they
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: can and making the variables work in their favor. He says,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: the truth is even worse than that. Our objective is
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: not really to succeed at the task at all, in
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: the sense of doing it well. It is to succeed
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: at obtaining the reward. If it was somehow possible to
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: obtain it without finishing the assignment, we would abandon the
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: task in a minute. Kurt Lewin said as much in
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties. Two researchers confirmed this effect empirically in
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: the eighties, and obviously we're still confirming it now. And
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: then he goes on to say a couple more things.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Just this is the last thing that I'll say. He says,
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  Speaker 1: if we do usually complete the task, it's only because
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: doing so is a prerequisite for getting the goodie but
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: even when this is true, we will given a choice,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: select the easiest possible task or the easiest way of
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: doing the task. At least ten studies have found just that,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: with preschoolers working for toys, older children working for grades,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: and adults working for money, all trying to avoid anything challenging. Furthermore,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: research indicates that one the bigger the reward, the easier
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: the task that people choose. Two, when the rewards stop,
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: those who received them earlier continue to prefer to do
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: as little as possible. And three, easier tasks are selected
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: not only in situations where rewards are offered, but by
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: people who are, as a general rule, more reward oriented.
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  Speaker 1: The practical implications here are enormous because in our workplaces,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: in our classrooms, and in our homes, because we're completely
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: saturated in these behavioral ideas like you need to reward
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: and punish people, what we're really doing is discouraging kids
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: from taking risks, from thinking creatively, from challenging themselves. And
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: that's what these researchers at Harvard have found. One more time,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: the more you put rewards in front of people, the
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: less likely it is that people will challenge themselves. The
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: more you remove rewards and say let's just do this
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: because it's fun. The more they seek the challenge.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: So you and I have been working in the gym together,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: and it's a little bit unfair because where at completely
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: different abilities. Yes, and when I started trying to compete
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: with you, which I cannot do, right, but you want
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: to beat deel wanted to kind of at least be
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: at your level.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Right. I hated it, yes, like.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: I absolutely hated it was hard, and I came home
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: dejected every day. Yes, But once I changed my mindset
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: and I just this was about me challenging my own
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: body and what my body's capable of doing. The other day,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: I came home and showed you that I could do
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: a handstand unassisted by myself.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: I haven't been able to do that, yeah, and forever.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: And it feels amazing, And it spurs me on to
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: want to do more as a result, and challenge myself
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: take more risks because it's all about me. It's not
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: actually about whether I can do what you're doing. It's
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: about what I can do.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: And if I was to say I'll give you a
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: hundred bucks if you can do it, your focus move
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: from doing it and challenging yourself to what am I
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: going to do to get the reward, and just doing
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: that bare minimum. Once you've got the reward, that's when
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: you're back off. This is why when people set the
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: challenge of I'm going to train for the marathon, on
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: the triathlon or this or that, once they've done it,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: they stopped training right because they got the reward. They
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: did the thing well.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: I had that exact experience as a teenager. A friend
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: of mine said, if I got a full strike at that,
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: they give me twenty dollars. And I was actually playing
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: pretty well. I hadn't I hadn't obviously got a strike,
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: but I was doing really well. I bowld worse than
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: I had ever bowled. After the incentive was placed before me,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: then I had previous to it because all I was
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: focused on was the money, not the actual experience.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Motivation is so complex, it's so interesting. I just I
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: love this whole conversation. We will link to that study
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: in the show notes if you're interested in understanding more
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: about it. And I don Reckon and Alfie Khon's book
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Punish by Rewards. I don't get any kickbacks for mentioning.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: It's just an absolute cracker of a book and it
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: changed my life. That's why it's one of the main
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: reasons that I do what I do. We hope that
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: you've enjoyed today's pod. The Happy Families podcast is produced
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Memb having provides our research,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: hadmen and other support and if you would like to
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: know more about making your family happier, visitors at happy
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: families dot com dot au