Latest / The Unconducted Curriculum / Episode 10: Off the Podium Strategies for Classroom Management

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Episode 10: Off the Podium Strategies for Classroom Management · The Unconducted Curriculum

• Chris McLellan: Great classroom management isn't simply about controlling students during rehearsal. It is about creating systems, relationships, expectations, routines, and accountability that make good behavior the natural result of a well-designed program. So the core question is: what are the things band directors do off the podium that make classroom management on the podium easier? tina: If you're constantly having to manage behavior from the podium, is the problem really the behavior or is it the system? Chris McLellan: sometimes it can be the behavior, it can be certain students, you know, things like that that you tina: Mm-hmm. Yes, it can. Chris McLellan: have to to address and deal with and we'll discuss that as we go through the podcast. tina: Okay. Chris McLellan: and then other times, we start off the year with great procedures and great intentions, and then as things get a little bit more hectic. We forget about those procedures. And so consistency is a big part of classroom management. tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: so what does classroom management really mean? classroom management versus classroom control, because those are two different things. tina: Right. Chris McLellan: management isn't simply stopping bad behavior, it's creating an environment where students know what to do, when to do it, why they're tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: doing it, which I think is important, and what happens when expectations. Aren't met. tina: Right. Chris McLellan: it's the difference between compliance, which I think is the lowest level of management, where kids are just compliant, engagement, which is the next level up where, they're compliant and they're engaged. tina: Right. Chris McLellan: But then above that, you have ownership, and students tina: Correct. Chris McLellan: feel like they have some ownership of what's going on and the results of that. So the tina: Right. Chris McLellan: key question is are we trying to make students behave or are we trying to build students who can manage themselves? So let's tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: talk, let's talk a little bit about management versus control. So Tina, what is your thoughts on that as far as how to create tina: You know Chris McLellan: a management for system versus just simply being able to control your classroom. tina: Well, it it's building those relationships It is. It's really about greeting them at the door and learning their names as quickly as you can. even just and and having name tags, if you have so many students to learn, having name tags so you can learn their name quickly, making them feel even more special. but it is, it's it's how they enter the room, who's greeting them, making them feel welcome. it's creating the environment that band is fun and band is something you want to be a part of and you want them to want to come back every day. And it's also about when they leave, you know, the procedure of them leaving, especially beginners. It was great to see you today. Can't wait to see you tomorrow, All of that. I think that's just the main differences is building the relationships and the environment. and so when you have that and you start getting your systems into place, you don't have quite as many things that have to be managed or discipline managed because they feel that they can talk to you or they can have a connection with you. Chris McLellan: Right, right. and I've been in some really successful programs, as an observer or as a clinician, different things where the kids are very compliant and they're very well behaved. tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: But it's very obvious that there's not really a relationship between the director and the students, and and I think that there's a disconnect there, tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: because that to me that's more classroom control in some ways, and there there were times in high school where we were very compliant. were we afraid to get in trouble? Probably, there was some of that tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: in there. did we have a really strong relationship with our band directors, not like I did with my students, but I think it was a different time also. tina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris McLellan: I think that's the biggest thing though, is managing your classroom is about having the procedures and all those things that that make your classroom run smoothly. And being consistent with those, but then having relationships with your students where they feel comfortable coming to you and you can talk to them and things like that, versus just standing on the podium and and tina: Yes. Well and also yeah, exactly. Chris McLellan: having this really compliant group, but tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: there's just no there's no relationship there. It's just about music. tina: Right. Well, po right. And also like making the room comfortable with all the positive feedback. You know, and if there is some negative behavior going on, you really sometimes don't even have to address it. Sometimes you could address the people around them on how how they are behaving or how that they're sitting or whatever with positive things, you know, and and comparing it that way, it builds relationships of trust. And, like you were saying in the past, we grew up a little bit where sometimes it wasn't as nice like trying to correct people or, it almost had this this feeling of, my goodness, are they gonna call on me? Or my goodness, am I in trouble? Or am I doing something Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: wrong? Or what are they gonna say? Instead of, call on me. I want to like show off and show what I what I can do and feel confident in that. that you encourage that behavior and also like the shuffling. I know I say that a lot, but shuffling for kids when they play really does help. And and and I I had, a couple of people say, well shuffle and they just shuffle too long or whatever. I said, well it has to be just, you teach that. You teach that positive reinforcement. You teach it that whatever I would even do, like a cutoff, and they would just stop shuffling, and but it gives kids confidence and if they make a mistake, it's okay for them to go on. But it it is building all that. I know that I was looking at some things like what changed whenever I had a a kiddo that wasn't responding well to me. What did I do to help Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: help with that? maybe they blurred out. I can remember one kid in particular that would blurt out a lot and it was funny. It was, I mean, I would have to like stop myself from laughing, like literally. And they knew and I'd go. One thing that really changed is I did talk to talk to him outside of class and try to get to know him a little bit better and whatever, but and he was like the youngest of like three other brothers, So he was constantly trying to get attention from everywhere in his home and all of that. But it was just funny. I would just say, so in class I'd go, you know what, you're really funny. And I love I love your personality. Not right now. You know what I mean? But not right now. And and when I started kind of doing that and like appreciating him for being, funny and everybody liked him. He was very likable and nothing was really rude. It was just He'd have a joke. also I'd Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: give him opportunities. You know, hey, this is a good time for so-and-so's joke. Do you have one? And he would do like a dumb dad joke or something. and it was, Chris McLellan: Right, right. tina: it was great, but I had to build that relationship that let him be him, but not to make it disruptive. I mean, if it have you had any kids like that that you had to really kind of figure out. Chris McLellan: yeah, I had, I mean, we all have students that we struggled to make an impression on or build a relationship with, or you know, maybe it's just a personality thing, a difference in personality. And I had to kind of figure this out pretty early in my career because I remember one student that I had that and he really became he became one of my best students in high school and still communicate with him to this day and we we have some reunions and stuff that he's he's always there and I mean he's just a great guy. but when he was starting off as a beginner and through middle school, he was pretty rambunctious and he, was hard to to manage. You know, that was the thing. It was tina: Yeah, I know what you mean, yes. Chris McLellan: was hard to manage. And and so I just had to kind of build a relationship with him. And one of the ways that I I created doing that was, you know, he really, as a percussionist, wanted to be a drum set player. And so I started a thing after school at the middle school where I think it was like Tuesday after school for about an hour or whatever. We were going to have drum set night, and I had five or six middle school kids that all had drum sets and they'd bring their drum sets up to school that day. And then we would We would sit there after school and just I'd teach them some some grooves and different things and we'd work on drum set skills. Well, that really kind of got him to buy in and really got him, kind of tina: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: kind of really loving what was going on. and when he got into high school, we had we had we had a night of percussion and things like that. And we always ended it with a a basically a drum set playoff type thing. And then like again again, it was me and like four or five kids. And we would just have, I would write this groove that we would start off with. And then we would just have solo times and stuff like that. And the audience would kind of vote on, which which person had the best solos, And by his senior year, he was winning that thing. He was beating me, because he came in with the double pedal and all the things and was just doing all this stuff, And I'm tina: Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Chris McLellan: like, okay, you get you got it. You know, but it's just like you kind of have to figure out sometimes what resonates with these kids, and building that relationship and getting them to buy in. And so, is that the reason why I started the drum set class? No, no, not really. But it helped. tina: Did it help? I mean it was a good idea, yeah. Chris McLellan: It helped, it helped a lot. And so you know, you just kind of have to figure out how to make that impression on some kids. tina: Well, and also you saying like creating that club. and I've heard of other people doing like a clarinet choir after school or whatever, And sometimes we do that because we need more strength in the clarinet section. So the more you can get them playing, as we say, instruments on their faces, Chris McLellan: Right. tina: and that's also why I think a jazz band is so, so important for high school and also middle school, because they're playing Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: more and they're sight reading more and it's just different styles that they learn. but getting them together with more instruments on their face and also that's that's that buy-in of being in your program and being on the same team all the same thing but I but I love that you did like a drum set thing because you know it's percussionists love to play and a lot of times they do not get that opportunity of drum set in the band world. Yeah. Yes. Two players, yes. It's not all of them. Chris McLellan: Right. Yeah, unless they're in jazz band and you're only talking about one or two kids or th you know, depending depending on yeah, So, just kind of summing up this first thing about building relationships, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: I think the ways that we can do that right at the beginning of the year is learning students' names quickly, tina: Yes. Chris McLellan: getting to know something about students beyond their instrument. tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: greeting students before class. I have my student tina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris McLellan: teachers, and we talk about this a lot when building relationships, because as a student teacher, you're coming in and you're brand new. It's like you're a first tina: Right. Chris McLellan: year teacher if you come in in the fall. Well, what about if you come in in the spring semester? That's even harder, And so the only way you can really start having an impact on kids and feeling comfortable tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: a as a student teacher is to greet them at the door and start talking to them every day. Build that relationship. Ask them their name, you know. tina: Yeah. And ask them. Yes. That's what I'm gonna say. Ask them, tell me your name again, or what instrument do you play again? anything, And Chris McLellan: Right. Yeah. tina: if they're coming in kind of late or whatever, where are you coming from? And they say, Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: I had athletics and so I had volleyball or whatever, and you're like, you play Chris McLellan: Right. tina: volleyball? Like, get that going in the conversation. Chris McLellan: Right, get that going, and having conversations when there isn't a problem, just tina: yes, exactly. Chris McLellan: just instigate the conversations, And then of course, like we've talked about many times, recognizing positive behavior, and then following through on conversations. So, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: sometimes we we talk to a kid about something and we forget to follow through on it. A day later or two days later or whatever. So it kind of goes back to that consistency thing too. tina: Right. Chris McLellan: And then avoiding relationships that are only correction based. You know, I th tina: very true. Chris McLellan: and I and I think sometimes we have those students where we feel tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: like the only time I really ever address them is when I'm having to correct a behavior, And so tina: Right. Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: we have to we have to to avoid that as much as possible. And so building that relationship, that's the first thing. But tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: using procedures as a management tool, routines, because every routine, yeah. Everything. tina: Routines, procedures, for beginners, for advanced band classes, for marching band, all of that. It needs to be the same every time. And you have to start on time every day. Yes, Chris McLellan: Every time. Always start on time. because every routine you don't establish becomes a decision students have to make. And tina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: everything runs smoother if there's a procedure for entering the band room. How you're going to get your instruments out. tina: Mm. Right. Chris McLellan: Are you going to allow them to play when they first sit down? Or there, tina: Right. Chris McLellan: are they going to sit quietly? tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: even procedures for how they they receive music. are you going to pass that out during class? Is it going to be something where they have a some some band halls had it and we had it where there's like folder slots and you can just, put the music in their folders, yeah, or whatever, tina: yeah, slots, yeah. into their locker or whatever, yeah. Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: so that it's not taking up class time. setting up chairs and stands, procedures tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: for that, because sometimes, especially with beginners, they may come into a class and they have to kind of adjust the setup a little bit and then put it back when they're done, tina: Right. Right. Chris McLellan: or or however you you need that to happen. warm-up procedures and tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: and it being something that they can anticipate and it not be something totally tina: No. Chris McLellan: wacky and change every day, procedures for tuning, percussion setup, equipment transitions. packing up, exiting the room. I mean, everything needs to have a procedure. And if those tina: Right. Chris McLellan: procedures aren't taught from day one and reinforced, for that first week, two weeks, whatever it takes, that I mean, that just causes more problems. It tina: Right. Chris McLellan: everything starts slower, you're having to give instructions, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: all the types of things. and so an important question to think about is have you actually taught your procedures? Or have you just discussed them? tina: Right. Right. Chris McLellan: because I have that conversation a lot. okay, well, procedures are really lacking. Have you taught your procedures? yeah, we did that on the first day. We discussed it. It's in our band handbook. Okay, you discussed it. Have you taught it? Have you reinforced it? has it become consistent? And the answer to that is no. and so and and we all get in this this hurry, to start teaching musical content as quickly as we can, no matter if it's beginners or middle school or high school, whatever it is. And I'll have that discussion a lot with young young directors take the time at the beginning of the year to make sure they understand procedures and practice them and be consistent with them. Cause you will make up that time and more as you go through the year. with that kind of efficiency and that kind of understanding of what's going on. tina: you you really you really will. And so a lot of teachers, and even like classrooms I'm going in right now, like they'll go they'll ask me, like, what am I doing? What can I do differently? and so like if if I take it and I'm like, okay, the first thing you have to do is I really like a timer of how long it takes them, if it's a two minute after the bell. them to sit down. But as they enter the room, if you're going through their procedure, is like greeting, like we've talked about. And if you have more than one director, one one is like right near the podium, one is at the door, and trying to get them in the classroom and on the there's a something's on the board of a timer and what they're gonna need and like the order of what's going on. Chris McLellan: Right. Mm-hmm. tina: and also that, that it's quiet when they come in and it's calm. And there's no music being played. There's nothing like that being played. So we keep it nice and calm. and if they are gonna talk a little bit, it's up to you how much you're gonna allow, but just the bare minimum, because some will come in and start high-fiving everybody and jumping around and and it's Chris McLellan: Yeah. tina: also like, where do they put their cases? larger cases need to be put, empty cases need to be put back into their lockers and shut the locked lockers with the instrument cases shut. And you have to check that. You have to make sure they're doing that so the room stays neat and and it just feels calm. And then the ones that are sitting down that have instrument cases, that they all go to one side. Like I always like the right side that they all went to the cases, did and you have the the binders get taught to be put on the stand immediately and opened up to the first warm-up. There's a lot of band holes I go into that they're not reading the warm-up. And I get that they have it memorized, but Even when I'm there Chris McLellan: You're right. tina: and I want to be specific, I want them to be able to do, can you do measures three and four? You know, and if and even if it's 1A or Remington or whatever you're calling it, it needs to be open. They need to be checking it. And if you Chris McLellan: Yes. tina: have tuners that they immediately clip on their tuner to their instrument, turn it on, check for 440, but all of that, you know, also it keeps them busy. And that two minutes or whatever you have on that timer, it keeps them busy to hurry up and get ready. But it's a relaxed environment where we're all kind of quiet and doing that. And also that they save questions. Don't come ask the director up front that's about to do class. because if you allow all those questions or a broken instrument or whatever, have things in place up front in their front of your classroom. if they need something, they need battery for the tuner, it's right there. If they need tape for some I'm just I'm just making this up and have everything clearly Chris McLellan: Right. tina: labeled, So they really don't need to go to you. And then if they have like an instrument that needs repaired, it's an emergency and they can't do it or you don't have an assistant in the room that can do it, have a procedure in place that, as soon as you start, maybe their hand goes up for certain things, you know, and they can ask you. But don't allow them to come up to you. You can still say hi and you can be getting ready also, but you have to be ready, that timer, and you're off the podium. That timer goes off. Everybody knows what it is. Make sure it's loud enough and it lasts at least 10 to 20 seconds. And I know that seems long, but that it lasts so they know their eyes are on you. Most go about 10 seconds, maybe a little less than that, but they're looking at you. Then when you get on the podium, they go to ready. You know, and make sure you have those positions. if it's either rest or relaxed when they're sitting back, but it's a professional Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: rest. It's like it's a silent looking like a professional musician sitting back with both feet be flat on the floors. And I love some of the beginners. There's several little sayings that they sing or they do or Chris McLellan: yeah. tina: whatever. I love those, but it still stays in advanced bands, you know, and so then you make them when they go, they all go to ready. They all look alike. And you tell them the why. It it's not just to look like professional musicians, but it's also to get their brains engaged. They're engaged, they're silent, they're waiting on you. What are we gonna play first? What are we gonna do? and that everyone is like facing you and ready to go. And so that's also why I like it called ready position. It's ready because they are ready. And if you look down the line, they all look alike. All the trumpets look alike, all the trombones look alike, and e percussion even has a ready position. You know, and then when your hands go up, it's it's go time and then their instruments up, and I like to call that set because when they're set, Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: they're setting all their muscles. it's all of that. But also the room has to look great. I love the dots on the floor now. I love that maybe one leg or two legs are on the dots. I have seen that some of them are using the chair in the middle of the dot on the floor, and it's not quite as neat and easy to do for some of the younger kids, but the dots are fabulous. And also like Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: you were saying earlier, Chris, about, if you're going from a beginner class to an advanced band class and it's a different setup or to jazz band or whatever, that there's different colors. I've seen where like the first row, which is made into a long line, because it's beginners, like it's all yellow. And those kids transitioning know to end up that class on the yellow for the beginners. Or, you know, whatever Chris McLellan: Right, right. tina: it is, or percussion back there. I love the different dots for percussion, like where does the sneer go? Where does the bass drum go? It just Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. tina: helps like really quickly to get back and all that. But that feeling of look, look how neat the room is and look how it all is. And you know, that's all procedures to make them realize that, hey, this is this is a really cool place to be, and I know exactly what to expect every time I come into this room. And everyone's gonna do the same thing. And I I I think that makes it start better and it can actually allow for you to just be able to play play quicker. I don't mean like faster tempo. I mean like you're gonna play immediately two minutes after that bell. Chris McLellan: Yeah. tina: be able Chris McLellan: Right. And for me, in my situation at the high school, it was one minute after the tardy bell rang. Yeah, they that tina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: was the downbeat, and so we had that clock running and they knew, you know, they heard the they heard the the the tardy bell tina: Right. Chris McLellan: and then they would know that there's one minute left and they would see that up on the screen, and then as soon as that one minute went off, then I would step up on the podium, I'm not I wasn't one that would just without saying a word start, concert F or whatever. I would always say, good morning band, tina: Right. Yes. Chris McLellan: just to kind of be personable, greet tina: I like that. Yep. Chris McLellan: them, that type of thing. And they would say, Good morning, Mr. McClellan. And then I would say, okay, here we go, concert F. And we would just start and just start, doing our thing. And it just they knew the they knew the procedures, and and you're like you're talking about with cases and things like that. We had the same same deal. If you're a flute, a clarinet, trumpet, your your instrument case can go under your chair. Everybody else had stayed in the locker room in their locker, tina: Mm-hmm. Right. Chris McLellan: and I've been in band halls, and we had I had the luxury of having a a pretty large band hall, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: so it wasn't a matter of space, but I've been in band halls. that are very compact and I'm trying to walk around the van and help and I'm tripping over tuba cases and all the things, It's a safety tina: Right. Mm-hmm. Yes. And it's it's safety thing. And you know Chris McLellan: thing. tina: Also, you know, you were saying instruments under chairs where there's some schools that their backpacks have to go to their chairs. So the backpacks had Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: to go completely under. That's when I went to the smaller cases on the right side, everybody's right side, because backpacks had to go under because they couldn't hang off the back of the chair because literally they were too heavy or they got in the way when you walked around. so whatever your school needs it to be, you just adjust and make it all alike. Chris McLellan: Yeah, it's gonna be as different depending on your school and how much space you have and and all tina: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Chris McLellan: the things. I mean, I come into some band halls, I was in one last week where all the kids have to put their backpacks on the other side. Like they come tina: Yeah, well. Chris McLellan: in from one side of the band hall and there's a door that goes to the outside of the building, tina: Well. Chris McLellan: on the other end of the band hall. Well, all their backpacks are kind of over there because there's a tina: Mm. Chris McLellan: lot of space in this band hall and they're out of the way, you tina: Right. Chris McLellan: And so whatever your your situation tina: Right. Chris McLellan: is, you can you can have different things, but it needs to be where you and others can walk around and not trip over things, and it heaven forbid there's a real emergency, tina: Yep. I saw dot. I know. saw dots on the floor kind of a little bit away from lockers that each kid had like a dot they had to put their backpack on there because so that way they were in a line and you still Chris McLellan: Yeah. Yeah. tina: could walk. and no cases were there to trip over or anything. But you do have to check that because some kids will forget. Some kids just don't, you know, they don't want to do it. So you just have to walk around and say, Hey, we used to walk around and those kids that did leave them out, we would shut them and put it in our office. So then when we dismiss them. They had to come get the empty case from us and we're like, Well, I'm gonna be tardy now. No, you gotta follow procedures just like everyone else, you know. You know, do your part. It's a safety issue. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, and s yeah. Chris McLellan: Right, right. Yeah, I used to do the same thing. You know, we just pick it up and take it to the office. I can't find my case. Well tina: And some people think, you know, why are we being so picky? But it's gotta be everyone the kids see that. If you let one kid do that or two kids, you know, it Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: it kind of snowballs and you want it to be fair for everyone and and they will tell you that, you know. So yeah, just make sure you're just trying to do that and walk around and all of that and what you're saying, yeah. Chris McLellan: Well, and you know, just to kind of sum up this, why the beginning of class often determines the quality of the entire rehearsal, you tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: know, is because if it's not structured, if it's the tina: Yep. Chris McLellan: kids don't know what to anticipate, if they don't know where they can put things, where they can't put things, tina: Yeah. Yes. Chris McLellan: you know, all of that that disorganization leads to disorganization in the r in the rehearsal, you know. tina: Yeah, and if you're not up front, you're not ready to go, you're running back Chris McLellan: Right. tina: in to go get something. I do know stuff s say things happen sometimes. You do have to run back. Chris McLellan: Sometimes things happen, sure, sure. tina: 'cause we we we all have things like that, but but That they know it's constantly you're not gonna be ready. And the, the bell goes off, the alarm, sorry, goes off to start class and you never start on time. And I've also seen like marching rehearsals. You're still if if marching rehearsal Chris McLellan: Never start on time. tina: starts at 5 30 or 6 or whatever it is, and it's 6 15, those kids are gonna be goofing off and you have to make sure or have somebody up there starting. I love that the drum majors will have a whistle. you have one drum major in charge of having a one-minute whistle And everybody has to make sure they're ready before that whistle. And most times they're already out there, but it gets some of those kids making sure they're ready and at whatever the starting spot is. and then a director is starting that marching rehearsal, no matter what. it just helps. It makes like you said, it makes the kids know, okay, I know what's coming next. I know what we're gonna do. Chris McLellan: So just to kind of bullet point some of these things, to help with starting class off on time, The beginning of class often determines the quality of the rehearsal, what they see when they walk into the room. Do they see an organized space? Do they see tina: Mm-hmm. Yes. Chris McLellan: what they're going to be doing on the screen? Do they see a timer? tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: music materials are already prepped. tina: Mm. Chris McLellan: You're not still messing with that. a predictable opening routine. make sure that you're tina: Yes. Chris McLellan: kind of starting the class the same way every time. And like you said, on time. Bell to bell expectations, have you reinforced those? What do we expect from bell to bell? avoiding dead time. And and tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: that can be a a rehearsal killer, and and I I see it from time to time where we're switching from one piece to another and the director just gives them too much time to do it. tina: Right. Chris McLellan: and the director starts to get occupied with something else, or a kid comes up during that time and that starts to ask a question, tina: and i've i've seen the whole five four three two one to switch pieces Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: and that works for the most part sometimes but sometimes with the much younger bands or like the third group or second group sometimes they can't do that that's still too much time you know to do that Chris McLellan: It is, yeah. tina: and that they're not ready for that but some groups it works really well just start counting down five four three two one and then you're ready to go here we go Chris McLellan: Yeah, yeah. No, I know. Yeah. And and having an organized binder. not just having the tina: Yes. Huge. Chris McLellan: old fashioned paper folders where kids are flipping through things and well it must have fallen out, have a binder, tina: Mm-hmm. Mm mm. Binder. a binder. Yeah. Chris McLellan: have it sectioned off, know, here's tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: your warm-ups, here's your your scales, here's your region music, here's your you know, concert music that we're working on. tina: Right. Chris McLellan: Whatever it is, have those things sectioned off and so that they can just flip to things quickly. the only the only time with me, your percussion section generally needs more than five, four, three, two, one. If they're switching around and moving, it depends on what it what it is, you tina: Yes, well it depends on what it is, yes. Yes, it does. Chris McLellan: but if if it's just a simple page turn, five, four, three, two, one, that's all you tina: Yes, it's which yeah. And all the pages of music, you're trying to get ready for a concert for should all be, like you said, organized, one right after the other. So and also Chris McLellan: Yes. Yes. tina: percussion also too, and that they're taking their whole binder. Percussion is not a piece of music, their whole binder going to if they're now gonna play bells, or they're going to timpani, that they just turn the page and they're going right there. So that will help them move faster. I have had some Chris McLellan: Right, exactly. tina: people say, Well, dividers. They're kind of expensive. Chris McLellan: Yes. tina: And I've but I've seen some people just do color pages in between. like they'll Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: just get order paper or before the school starts. Try to get some color paper in there or some color cardstock. but that they would do that because it wasn't as expensive. But something to make it very organized. Also, I love this when you pass out music or you're you're doing that. I would always say, is your name raise your hand when your paper or whatever task you're having them to do that makes them put it in their binder or get something out. Raise your hand when you're done. The person on your right has done it exactly the same way and the person on your left. So everybody was being accountable for each other and also helping. Like I'll see somebody help somebody with their binder. And then like they raised their hand. Everybody's ready. So everyone's ready. And that way it saves so much time in the long run of people leaving stuff out or whatever. But we help each other be a team and be accountable and help each other. Chris McLellan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, those are all great ideas. and so talking about, procedures, but now let's talk tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: about rehearsal structure. And we've tina: Okay. Chris McLellan: talked about this on a on a separate episode, so we're not gonna spend a lot of time on it. tina: Right. Chris McLellan: but I'm just gonna kind of tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: put it in some bullet points, better rehearsal structure. produces better classroom management. tina: Yes. Chris McLellan: So clear rehearsal goals. what are what are what are the expectations for the rehearsal that day as far as what do we want our out tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: our outcome to be? And discussing that briefly with the students at the beginning of class. Short instructional segments, meaning that, and this can be different depending on the age group that you're teaching, but don't spend 30 minutes on, 12 measures of music. And expect students tina: Right. Chris McLellan: to really, you know, you you've got to kind of break your rehearsal up into shorter segments and tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: have a variety of things that they're doing. student engagement. How do we keep students engaged? Keeping students mentally involved, even when they aren't playing, tina: Yes. Chris McLellan: and for me, it's questioning and peer feedback. So tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: maybe I'm working on something with the clarinet section right now, but My trombone players know that I'm probably going to ask somebody that's not playing right now to give some feedback on what was just played. tina: Yes. Chris McLellan: and and so, and people will say, Well, you can have them number their measures or you can have them finger along and all that stuff. Yes, you can, but it's even more effective for them to get in the idea in the routine and for you to to do this consistently. Where you're asking for peer feedback and you're teaching them how to give peer feedback tina: Right. Chris McLellan: based on what they're hearing, And so I love to do that all the time. And I do it in in when I do clinics and it surprises people, you tina: Mm-hmm. Right. Chris McLellan: and I'm like, I could be saying tina: Well in most of Chris McLellan: something right now to the clarinets that applies to you later in the piece. Yeah. tina: That's exactly what I was gonna say. Because a lot of times it they had the clarinets and flutes may have it here, and then here comes the low brass that have the same thing down the line. And that's also Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: another good rehearsal technique is if that is like that, lining those two up and letting them play at the same time too. Yes. But but yeah, but having them answer Chris McLellan: play at the same same time. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But that tina: questions about what you just heard and what they did and what you asked them to do all throughout the band, and Chris McLellan: Yes. tina: They'll start to volunteer. They'll also start to volunteer because also it's kind of making them be a teacher, So it's it's great. They Chris McLellan: Yeah. And that's tina: love that. Chris McLellan: and that's getting you towards that ownership side of classroom tina: yeah. Chris McLellan: management. That's where we're trying to go, And so getting them to to want to give feedback and give, and tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: like I said, you got to teach them how to give that feedback, let's start off with something that you heard that was really good and then something that you think needs to be improved, but don't just dog on them. that type of thing. Cause you know, you got to teach kids how to do that. but that works so well. And if you're consistent tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: with it and the kids will start to figure out that this is part of class, they'll start being more engaged when they're maybe not playing at that moment. You tina: Right. Chris McLellan: and I as a percussionist, I tina: yeah. Chris McLellan: love to ask my percussion kids about it. You like, cause, know, tina: I yes. huh. They're like, what, you're gonna include me on the c on a clarinet sectional? It's true. Chris McLellan: Well, and it's that old adage of the further away they are from you, the more trouble they're gonna get into, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: And as a percussionist myself, I remember some of the stupid stuff we did in in rehearsal, tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: know, in high school. I mean, we had a kid who was he was a very small kid, and he spent one rehearsal. He crawled into the bottom of the the accessory cabinet and he took a nap. And we never switched pieces. tina: no. I believe that. It could happen anybody. It could have never happened. Chris McLellan: Yeah, we never switched pieces and he wasn't playing on that specific piece. So he was like, dude, I'm just gonna take a nap, you know. tina: So mine, yes. Chris McLellan: And I kept thinking, Man, I hope I hope the director will switch pieces. So in the tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: and then he won't be there, and then they'll have to come back here and wake him up, But it didn't happen, So it's like tina: yeah. Chris McLellan: you gotta you gotta mix it up, you gotta keep him involved tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: and ask your percussionist questions about what the winds are doing, tina: Yes. Chris McLellan: Like how could they play that more musically? what what dynamic level were they playing? Was it loud enough? You tina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris McLellan: and even during full band rehearsal, hey, percussion, can you hear the flutes? just whatever, but just just that kind of thing. tina: Yes. Always try to engage them. And and even like when I go into clinic or anything like that, I always try to mention or compliment percussion for keeping good time or just anything Chris McLellan: Yes, yes. tina: to make them feel a part of what you're doing because they they are and the importance of I feel important. I am doing that, I am doing my part with that. but And it's also like, you're saying like having them listen for flute or whatever. It reminds me that, when you get your jazz bands even more prepared and all that, or more competent is you give the drums that player like the the lead trumpet part with their other part to kind of look, look, these are the hits, these are the big punches Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: usually that are in that first trumpet part. and for them to start listening, like you've got to listen across the band. Who are you going to be playing along with? Who are you going to help? where's your your time coming from? Or, like the clarinet, are you playing there? are you the metronome for them? Are you the time for them? Getting those percussionists to think that really goes a long way because also it makes them problem solvers, even when like you're performing and the time's getting away from you, or whatever. It makes them go, it's there. Chris McLellan: Well, I mean, I can I can attest to the fact that when I got into jazz band in high school, I mean, and as a drummer, you get this chart and it just has a lot of repeat signs or slashes on it. And then every once in tina: Mm-hmm. Yes. Chris McLellan: a while it'll have an eighth note on an upbeat or this or that. I mean, it's very basic. What is this? You know? So tina: Yes, and you're like, What? Yeah, yeah. You just want me to do a fill here. Chris McLellan: that's when I started learning how to listen, to the band. tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: to what was going on. And that's when I learned how to as a percussionist, really learned how to what's the phrase here? And and where am I going to fill? And all the things, tina: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Chris McLellan: you know, because and it's so helpful to create musicians out of your your percussionist, but that's when tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: I learned all those things. And and became kind of more innate when even counting rests and concert band. I'm not counting rest as much as I'm listening to what's going on and listening to the phrases of the music. And where's this leading me to? so all of that stuff is super important. And questioning is something that I don't see a lot of in in rehearsal. I see a lot of directors on the podium dictating everything to the students, the students being responsive But they're not as engaged as they need to be. They're not thinking about the music. tina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris McLellan: They're not listening to other sections. And so questioning is to me your best friend. And it's gonna help keep k kids engaged and it's gonna help them to start sounding better and understanding the music faster, you know. tina: And it and it starts and beginners. I mean, even like when you have your first Chris McLellan: Yeah. tina: first rehearsal or whatever, when everyone's in the room, and you could say, Hey trumpets, can you hear the flutes up there? Doesn't that sound cool? Hey everyone, Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. tina: don't the flutes sound really cool? or wow, we have percussion now. Isn't that great? See what they add. Yay, we'll all shelter percussion because of all the different things they've added to our pieces so getting them where they're they are listening across. Okay. Chris McLellan: Yes, tina: This time we're gonna do Chris McLellan: yes. tina: from here to here. I want everyone to listen to a different instrument. Any instrument. Just listen You just start it from when they're very, very young and keep doing it. And they'll get way more mature on their answers and they'll start asking questions. The students will. So very, very good advice on all that. And it keeps everyone engaged the whole entire time. Chris McLellan: Yes, it does. It does. So let's move into what I like to call the power of proximity. and and you and I've you and I have talked about this a ton, and tina: Okay. Like where are you? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: we're both even twenty seven years ago when we taught together, we tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: did not stand on the podium the entire time. we tina: No. We Chris McLellan: got off of podium and walked around and sometimes it's for listening purposes. Sometimes tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: it's like it is the power of proximity. You've got a kid in the back who's not really engaged and maybe they're goofing off or maybe they're causing a distraction or maybe they're just not engaged themselves. Whatever it is, go back there and stand behind that student. You know, we are it does like they tina: Yeah. But it also makes them sit taller. It does. It makes them be more aware. Chris McLellan: Yeah. Because we use the metronome a lot in rehearsals and things like that. And and with technology these days, I mean you can run the rehearsal from your phone you've got it Bluetooth to your speakers and whatever the situation is, tina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris McLellan: or you're you're using your app for your harmony director, whatever it is, tina: Harmony Director? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chris McLellan: but walk to the back. or walk to the middle of the band wherever that that issue's happening tina: Yes. Chris McLellan: and just stand there, and and nine times out of ten, that that problem will go away, you know, and you just stand there for a second and you can rehearse class from there, you know, and you're taking tina: Right. Yeah. And you don't eat Chris McLellan: the opportunity to look at everybody's music stands. Does everybody have their music out? Does everybody have a tina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris McLellan: pencil? Are they using their tuners? Are their tuners tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: on? whatever's going on that way, it gives you that opportunity to do those things. But the power of proximity is tina: Huge. Chris McLellan: is so strong, and I know you like this too. And I I talk to a lot of my middle school band directors who struggle with maybe classroom management. create an aisle down the middle, you know, going toward the tina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris McLellan: back of the of the ensemble so that they can walk through. tina: Right. Chris McLellan: Give enough space in the aisles so that they can walk through, tina: Yes, Chris McLellan: because it's it It makes a big difference. And and I started tina: It really does. Chris McLellan: off class in warm-up doing that every day, even with my honors ban at the high school. we're we're doing some things and I could control the metronome from my phone. And it wasn't that we were just running through warm-ups because if something wasn't right, I would stop, address it, start again, all the things. But just walking around and checking, posture, checking stand heights, checking. tina: Mm. Chris McLellan: materials, making sure that they have everything out. Back then it was before we couldn't have phones in class, making sure there's no phones out on their music tina: Mm-hmm. Right. Chris McLellan: stands, you know, all the things. And you do that daily. And then it becomes pretty quick that you don't really have to do that, but you still do it. You tina: Mm. Right. Chris McLellan: I mean it it was very rare that I ever had to correct anything unless it was, a reminder about posture. And then all I would say would be posture check. You tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: And anybody who wasn't would sit up, or put their feet flat or whatever it was, and so just kind of that po power of proximity, walking through the ensemble, moving toward a problem rather than yelling across the room, teaching from tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: different locations, standing beside sections, using tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: proximity before verbal correction, you know. tina: For sure. Chris McLellan: Because that can be something that is very effective is you just go and stand by that student. You don't even have to say anything to them, And so all of those things are are great. And so a question you can ask yourself as a director is can you correct a behavior without stopping the entire rehearsal? And that's tina: I love non herbs like you're talking about. Even on the podium, if they're playing and they're looking at your whatever, I I know you say the posture check, but if they're playing, you can touch your shoulders and bring the shoulders back. You can do the L Chris McLellan: Sure, sure. tina: from this your your fingers from the sternum to your chin to make sure they're they're tall that way. There's so many things I can make point to my chin and make a you know, make an ombur of whatever they're doing. so many things that are non-verbal that you don't stop for. You just do it. And like you're saying, both feet file the floor. All of that. reminding another thing is, especially with the younger kids, is reminding them to tap their foot. Even when they're playing, I kind of put my hands together and almost do like kind of like the alligator thing. And Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. Yep. tina: it works, but it it's mine. They they've learned it from beginners that that's what I'm gonna do. if I see their feet not in time. because it makes them not look at the floor, makes them look at me and they're like, yeah, I don't have my toe going or whatever. Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. tina: But make up your own, your own things that are nonverbal, And even my thumbs up is like, that is awesome. great. You Chris McLellan: Right. tina: you look amazing. I don't even have to say that. I can just, mm-hmm. Yep. And and sometimes you use them literally during a performance. You're in that performance Chris McLellan: yeah. tina: and they're playing and I'll do like the two fingers to your eyes. So like, watch watch, watch, watch me more, I Chris McLellan: Watch me, yeah. Mm-hmm. tina: don't have to say that. I can just, hear or. Chris McLellan: Yeah. tina: Or whatever, I could do this to make sure, you know, some of them that are like kind of like waiting, because maybe we had announcements in between, and they're not quite being professionals. I do that a Chris McLellan: Yeah. tina: lot, touching my shoulder before I step on the podium for a concert. I'm like, okay, Chris McLellan: Right. tina: you're still at you're still at rest or relax, but you gotta look like pros, And then I stand Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: up and I I do this whole thing and that's my baton. Audience cannot see it, but it and also it Chris McLellan: Right. tina: for the younger kids, it reminds them. They have to look professional in whatever ready position they have for their instruments. But anything like that, like you said, also it makes the rehearsal or the concert run smoother and they have confidence in you on all of them. Huge difference. Chris McLellan: Yeah. And and and just like you said earlier, most of us have those procedures that we do when we tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: get on stage. question. And I'll ask this, why tina: Do it every day. Yep. Chris McLellan: why are you just not teaching this the week of the concert? This should be daily procedures, you know. So here's tina: Right. Yes. Daily. And if you don't have already, you don't have a whatever, just start one and just start Chris McLellan: Start one. tina: it. And you just gotta keep reminding them and reminding you where it is for them to do that, Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: to get them engaged, get them looking at you, and add it. I've had I've seen people do silent rehearsals and they're kind of fun to watch, you know. You know, yes, I have too. Chris McLellan: Yeah. I've done it before myself. Yeah. tina: You know, I'm just sitting there and they're they're trying to like raise their hand to ask, nope. Nobody's talking. We're not gonna ask questions, we're not gonna anything. and I I would point to the board, you know, like if we're on the march or whatever it is. It's fun close to UIL time. It really, really is. Chris McLellan: Yeah. yeah, it is. Well Also, and this is something I I really have to stress with my student teachers, is you have to be observant. You know, there tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: and I think as young directors, we get into this and we're focused on just the music, and we've got our head in the score and we're just kind tina: Mm. Chris McLellan: of, our eyes are like a deer caught in the headlights, and we're just trying to tina: Right. Chris McLellan: figure things out. And then I'll ask them, well, what did you notice about the classroom? At the end of rehearsal. what do you mean? Did you not notice that everybody's stands were way too low? Did you not notice posture? Did you not know you know, all that kind of stuff, tina: Right. Yeah, we didn't talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. Chris McLellan: you know? And it's like you've got to be observant. so here's kind of a a correcting behavior without creating a bigger problem, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: kind of a hierarchy of responses. And and this is kind of how I approach things, and I think you do too, Tina. tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: But I think it works really well. And this is what I teach to everybody that I work with. First is eye contact, and you have to have eye contact. And and that's why also stand heights are so important. Because if stands are too low or stands are too high and they're you can't see their face, you can't have that eye contact. And you can do so much with just a look, right? We've talked about that a lot. tina: yeah. Yes. Yes we have. Chris McLellan: Number two is proximity, When something is going that you need to address, go get closer to the problem, Number three is the nonverbal cue. Okay. tina: Mm. Chris McLellan: Number four is a quick reminder. if those three things aren't aren't fixing the problem, then you you go to a quick reminder. tina: Like your posture check by just saying it. Posture check. Yeah. Chris McLellan: Yeah, posture check. Yep. number five is a private conversation. So after class, hey Joe, come see me real quick. tina: Right. Chris McLellan: Or don't even call Joe to come see you. Walk over to Joe and tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: and say, Hey, come talk to me when you put your instrument up. You know, that type of thing. and then after that private conversation's happened, if it's still an issue. There's got to be consequence. And you have to be able to enforce that consequence. You know, don't, don't tina: Really good. Chris McLellan: have, you know, and and the kids need to know what the consequences are. And that's one of the biggest things that I see where directors fail in classroom management is they're afraid to deal out the consequences. they'll. Remind the student 40 times. They'll talk to the parent. They'll do this and that, but they won't instill a consequence. and that's a that's a real downfall. after that consequence, there's the parent contact and then the administrative involvement. But for me, those first three things solve 95% of problems that I ever had eye contact, proximity, nonverbal cue, and then occasionally the quick reminder. tina: Yeah, very much so. And you Chris McLellan: You know, and if you you get in the habit of doing that, then tina: know And and you're exactly right with all of this, but I'll sometimes get, well, that kid doesn't want to be in band. Their parents are forcing them to be in band, and that could be the case, but you have to talk to that kiddo. You have to like Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: say, okay, so if you don't want to be here, I understand if you'd like to do something else, but what ask them, what can we do, to do what we're having to do right now? What would make it better for you ask them to tell you their feelings, And, some of it you can do and some of it you're not going to be able to, but make kind of like a a a verbal contract with them. Or you could even have them write it down. Now that I'm thinking about it, yeah. Like I'll do this. Chris McLellan: And that goes back tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: and that goes back to the ownership part of things, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: where you're giving them some ownership in tina: Yes. Chris McLellan: in kind of this is this will work for me or whatever. like you said, sometimes that no, that's not gonna happen. Well, I just tina: No, it's not. But you can have them say it But like you come to an agreement, okay, let's agree on this. Let's agree that you're gonna sit this way and you're gonna Chris McLellan: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. tina: whatever, and we're gonna make sure, whatever. find out. It also could be, well, this music's not fun, well, what would you like to play? and have them engage in some of that, they'd like something to be more of a rock tune or whatever. And I say, and and like really seriously say, I'll look for something. I really will for our next one. And you can try, and if they say, Did you find anything? And I had one with one kiddo that I would he would start sharing like music stuff, then it's band music, but then it'd be like grade five stuff. wait, but I want to play this, and we're middle school. And I'm like, I'm Chris McLellan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. tina: like, I love that, I love that. But look, look, Chris McLellan: But yeah. tina: look on these lists, you know, and start explaining the UIL list or the whatever. Chris McLellan: Right. tina: But get them like motivated that way. and see Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: what you can do. But it is, it's baby steps with kids that are, you feeling Chris McLellan: It is baby steps. tina: that way. Cause it is a feeling that they're having, you know, and it could be their parents are forcing them to do something they do not want to do, but find out. Build that relationship. Talk to them. Find a plan. Chris McLellan: Yep. Absolutely. And that's there's some a few important principles I think we need to to remember when we're we're dealing with behavior issues. Number one is correct the behavior, not the student's character. And what I mean by tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: that is you're not going to change their character in one interaction or one correction, right? so correct the behavior. Don't embarrass students unnecessarily. Avoid public power struggles. And I've seen this tina: yeah. Chris McLellan: so many times where it becomes this yelling back and forth between a student and a director on the podium. don't do that. Do not do that. You know. tina: Well, no, if if the student says one thing back and then you you say, This is not the time. Come see me right after class or come in at so Chris McLellan: Right. This is not the time. Yeah. tina: and so time. If they still still you say stop, you're gonna have your opportunity to speak to me, but it's this is not the time. that's that's the main thing. And you have to get kind of like tough with that and say, No, you're not going to just stop it. even if you feel Chris McLellan: Yeah. Right. stop. That's it. tina: like you have to whatever, you just have to say stop. But it, you know. Chris McLellan: Well, and I have a funny I tina: And it it works a lot of times, yeah. Chris McLellan: have a funny story about that. and it it it was funny and it worked because I never did engage in those types of struggles with students in the classroom. tina: Yeah, yeah. Chris McLellan: But one year I had well, not one year, but when I was at Glenrose, I had a student whose name was Reed McClellan. No relation, no relation. tina: I know, I remember, yeah. Yes, I remember eight. Chris McLellan: You remember Reed? But and he was a percussionist and he was a very good, he was an all-state percussionist. well it it tina: And that's why it was funny because it was no relation to you two. So I did yeah. Chris McLellan: it was funny because he's an all-state kid, everybody loved Reed. I mean, and and we had a great relationship and tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: and all the things. And but that wasn't something that happened in rehearsal. I didn't engage in an argument with a student. And so It was April Fool's, April Fool's Day. tina: no. Chris McLellan: And he and I decided we're gonna play a joke on the band. And so, during the rehearsing of this piece, I want you to just uncharacteristically play something just extremely loud and just like belligerent, you know. tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: And then I'm gonna call you on it, and then we're gonna get into an argument. And then eventually I'm just gonna kick you out. Like, get out of here. I tina: Ha ha ha Chris McLellan: don't want you to come back, you know, all this stuff. And so we get into this piece, and I didn't know exactly when he was gonna do it, but we get into this slow, slow, softer section of the piece. And all of a sudden he just just on the timpani, just going crazy. And I stopped and I I just tried not to laugh, because it was tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: really funny. And I stopped and I just stared at him and I gave him the eye contact. And then he kind of responded with, What are you looking at, old man? and that kind of started this back and forth, banter. And it escalated and it escalated and to the point where I was like, All right, get out, go to the principal's office. I don't want you in my band anymore. And then I finally looked at the the rest of the band in front of him, and they're all just like. tina: All Bayon were they like my gosh Chris McLellan: my God, what just happened? And so he leaves, he goes out the door, he slams the door, and all that kind of stuff. And then I'm standing up there and I kind of storm off the podium and I go in the office and slam the door, and the kids are there's not a peep. Like they're just sitting there, holy cow, what's And then he comes back in to the band hall and I come out of the office and we walk into the rehearsal area together and we're just like, April Fools. And I mean, tina: Ha ha Chris McLellan: the band was just like, my God, how how could you do that to us? but it worked because tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: that never happened in rehearsal. we that that kind of stuff, they didn't they didn't see that kind of stuff happen. but I've seen those types of things truly happen in rehearsals tina: yes. Chris McLellan: before. and I'm just like, no, no, uh-uh, no, you tina: Yeah, yeah. Chris McLellan: cannot do this, so avoid the public power struggles, be consistent, and I think that's the most important thing that we can say. tina: Yes. Chris McLellan: Follow through. And another really important one is don't make threats you won't or can't enforce. well, if you don't do this, then you're gonna have a week of ISS. Well, number one, you can't give out tina: Yeah. You can't do that, yeah. Chris McLellan: you can't give that punishment out. And number two, tina: No. Chris McLellan: you can't make it a week because you can't even give that punishment out. So what are you doing? tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: so just kind of thinking through those things. And I and I think we we just need to to practice doing those things, eye contact, proximity, nonverbal cue, quick reminder, private conversation, consequence, parent contact, administrative involvement. But that's that that's like down the row. And if you're doing the first four. tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: Most of the time you're never going to get to number five. that just shouldn't happen. and and sometimes five will solve the problem, but if it doesn't, then give them the consequence and and don't be tina: Right. Chris McLellan: afraid to do that, and be consistent tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: with that. So we're talked a lot about, how procedures affect our rehearsal and making sure that everybody understands how to do this and that and get ready for class and All the all the different things we've talked about proximity and how to use that. We've talked about correcting behavior without creating a bigger problem and the kind of the hierarchy of responses. and then there's one more thing I really wanted to talk about on this episode, and it's the difference between fair and equal responses. So so students don't always require identical responses. And we learn a lot about this. I know this was a big thing. 20 years ago or something, where it was like equality versus equity. and it's like if we do everything for every kid the exact same way, we're not gonna get the same result, you know. tina: No. Chris McLellan: And so we have to that and this is going back to building relationships and understanding your students, And so, like I said, students don't always require identical responses. So Consistency versus sameness. Individual circumstances may be different. Student maturity levels may be different. age level differences, of course, repeated behaviors, giving students opportunities to correct mistakes. But fair doesn't always mean identical, tina: Well, and in that also is there are different learning styles for kids too. You know, some are verbal, where they have to hear it, some literally have to do it, some need to touch the page during rhythms. But I think that's a huge part of this too, is learning the different styles of learning and and saying things more than one way. or doing things. You know, I'm always like when when I go and observe and go help, it's like when they're asking about like counting, sh how should we do this? You know, some will clap and some will I said do multiple ways, because it's going to get to every learner. the clapping does great. I love the like the two finger clapping because it's just it works and it's easier to control with motor skills. and like I said, touching the page, love that as they're going and making them just kind of follow through, also like air air in position where you can hear that going on some people do that Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: or an echo where one group models and the next group plays the rhythm and vice versa but anything that can help with differentiating between the learning styles is gonna help and also it goes by like their maturity or their age level or what you're doing but that is extremely important that you try everything you can. Chris McLellan: Yeah, and find out what works for your student because tina: Yes. Chris McLellan: some things are gonna work and some things aren't. my youngest son, we we started off trying some of the same, behavior correcting systems that we did with our older son. Well, they just didn't work with Jackson. It just didn't work, you know, and tina: Yeah. Every kid is different. No, I know. I understand that. Yeah. Chris McLellan: so that's kind of the theme here is yes, you want to be consistent, yes, you want to be fair, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: but sometimes you may have to adjust the consequence or you may have to adjust the approach depending on that kid. tina: Yes. Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: So keep that in mind. another thing I I I'd like to really talk about is staff consistency. And I'm working with a young director that I mentor right now. And we're talking about all these things, and he's doing a really good job of learning these tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: things and implementing them, but then it may not be applied through all the staff, because I'm working with him, and I'm so now tina: yeah. Right. Chris McLellan: we're talking about this has to be communicated and this has to be. the expectation from everybody because if you're not on the podium one day and somebody else is on the podium because you're not there or whatever and they're much more lax or they're much you know then we have a problem and so things have to match. Yeah so tina: Things have to match. Certain things really have to match. You know. Chris McLellan: creating a staff management philosophy, what are our non-negotiables? You know, tina: Mm-hmm. Right. Chris McLellan: respect, preparedness, punctuality, equipment, how we handle it. All that stuff, language, transitions, rehearsal behavior, all those things have to be consistent because tina: Yeah. All of that. Yeah. I think one of Chris McLellan: you don't want a kid to to not want to be in a in your band because so and so's band is a lot less, tina: Mm-hmm. Right. Chris McLellan: you know, strict, structured, whatever. Yeah. tina: structured or yes, yes. Or like that they don't have to sit a certain way. But you know, one of Chris McLellan: Right. tina: the biggest thing as young like middle school groups is are you all counting off the same? And beginners and all that all the way through, are you? And I really love the two count breath. that you're Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: all doing that nice, relaxed two count breath that we're all, just and that's non-negotiable. And beginners, I love the whole down up, get the metronome on for two counts and go down up, down, breathe, out to breathe. in in play, and beginners, if you all do that count off exactly the same way, then they're not going to come in early on a concert, or a performance or whatever. But this everyone is counting off the same way. Everyone's using the metronome. Everybody's patting patting the same foot. Everyone's you have those non-negotiables, and like plan them out, write them out literally. So everybody knows that's how it's going to start. Class is going to start the same. You know, you move up into the advanced band, it's gonna start the same. They're gonna have the same count-offs also, you know, Chris McLellan: Yeah. tina: but that it's just the same, you know, and Chris McLellan: Well, and that's the thing is describe your non-negotiables, agree on those as a staff, tina: Yes. Mm-hmm. As a teen, yep. Chris McLellan: and just be consistent with them because it can be a real problem when the consequences aren't consistent, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: Like you said, just procedures aren't consistent, all those tina: Right. Chris McLellan: types of things. kids need to know what to expect. And when they get into a routine, you have so many fewer problems than tina: And also, we're not trying to say that every teacher has to be exactly alike. We all have different personalities, but it Chris McLellan: No. Yeah. tina: needs to run the same and look the same. If I'm there for three band classes, do they all look the same? they're, Chris McLellan: Right. And that's something I always hear is well, you're just trying to make us all a clone of each other. No, I'm not. tina: Mm mm. No. Chris McLellan: That's why you have non-negotiables. You know, tina: Right. Chris McLellan: I'm not saying everything you do has to be exactly the same. That's not possible. You know, tina: Mm-hmm. No. Chris McLellan: you got different personalities, you've got different ways. But tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: what are your non negotiables? And those things, especially when it comes to classroom management. Have to be agreed on and have to be consistent. tina: Yep. Chris McLellan: And then I think finally, parent communication is classroom management. tina: Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: Because the conversations that happen outside the classroom can directly affect what happens inside it. And then ask yourself, what would change if your first communication with a parent about a student wasn't a negative one? tina: Right. Chris McLellan: And we've talked about this before as well, but I did a glow note thing where every week I would choose three to five students out of my classes that I noticed them doing something above and beyond, and it could be a playing thing, it can be a behavior thing, it can be a leadership thing, it can be whatever. And I would just send home this little short little glow note, to the parent. That says, hey, your child was doing something today that was really exceptional. And I just wanted you to know about it, you know? And that helped me so many times because 99% of the time when parents hear from the school, it's not good. tina: Right. Chris McLellan: and so if you get consistent in sending home things that are good about students, when you do have to call them for something that's not going well, they're much more. willing to listen to you and work with tina: Yeah. Chris McLellan: you because they've also recognized that you've seen the good in their student previously, And so go ahead. Yeah. tina: Well, and even in emails, if you send an email or if you leave a voicemail, and with voicemails now most of them will like have it written out almost like a text message that you can Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: see now. I love that. Cause you'll I'll read it more than I like gonna listen to a voicemail, but always end on a positive note. But I mean also ask Chris McLellan: Yeah. tina: them, hey, we're we're seeing this going on, what do you do at home when you see yeah, Chris McLellan: What can you right. tina: what do you what do you do? What works for you? You know, and they Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. tina: love that because it gets them involved in they're trying to find a s a solution to this that works. And it's also being very personalized. But then also end with something positive. I love Johnny's personality. He's really funny. I'm going back to the other story. He's really funny, but it's just not the time and place, you know, and Chris McLellan: Right. tina: I've given him opportunities to come tell me jokes after or or before school or whatever. and that just giving that positive. You know, I love how he smiles as he comes into the room. It just brightens my day. Anything, with that gives a positive. And you're also asking them for help So that helps too, when you're having to do, a communication about needing help with their behavior or something that's going on. I you have glow notes. I did have these postcards that I bought that had all like musical instruments on the front that I would write on the back. Chris McLellan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. tina: and and have them send it home and everything. And that was I think that's really fun. I've seen people just do post-it notes. just little post-it notes of Chris McLellan: Yeah. tina: just whatever, just all that. That anything like that, that they can go home and say, look, look what this par gave me. You know, whatever. It's just, it's positive all the way around. Mm-hmm. Chris McLellan: Yeah, yeah, all the way around. Well, I'm gonna put a copy of the the glow note and I'm also gonna put a copy of because this this podcast episode today is really kind of by popular demand. Tina and I did a clinic back in February at TMEA over, all of this and got a lot of really good feedback from it. And then we've kind of been talking about these things in little bits. on the first few episodes of the podcast. And so I was getting questions like, can you guys do just one episode over classroom management? and so I'll put the glow note and I'm also going to put our TMEA handout that we had and I'll put them in the resource folder for this week's episode. And if you go to McClellan Bandconsulting dot com and you click on the unconducted curriculum You're going to see another little tab that'll pop up that says podcast. And you go to that page, and down at the bottom, there'll be a resource folder where you can download any of these resources for free. so I'm put the glow note in there. I'll put the the outline from our TMEA presentation in there, and that way you kind of have all of this that we've been talking about. All right, so we're gonna kind of wrap things up for this week. So just in closing, classroom management isn't something you turn on when rehearsal gets out of control. It's something you build every day. It's in the relationships you create, the procedures you teach, the rehearsal structure you design, the expectations you communicate, and the consistency you demonstrate. The podium is only one small part of classroom management. Sometimes the best management strategy is what happens before you ever step onto the podium. tina: The goal isn't to create a room where students behave because they're afraid of what will happen if they don't. The goal is to create a culture where students understand what is expected, know why it matters, and eventually take ownership of it. Chris McLellan: Right. So final question for listeners. What is one classroom management problem you're currently dealing with? and what could you change off the podium that might make it better on the podium? So thank you for for listening this week. Thanks, Tina, for co-hosting. And if you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to us. our contact information is on the handout that will be in the resource folder. And so if you have any questions about anything, we're glad to talk to you and hear your feedback on any of this. And if it's working for you, let us know. But we'd love to hear your feedback. So tina: Yeah, please. email us. Any questions or just any comments or, even if you want to, just talk, please do that. Chris McLellan: All right. Thanks guys. tina: Bye bye.