Latest / Yes And Land / Tangled - Manipulation vs Influence | with military interrogator Josh Emfield

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Tangled - Manipulation vs Influence | with military interrogator Josh Emfield · Yes And Land

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Welcome to Yes and Land, where we say yes to
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the reality of yesterday and today, and we say
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and to the possibility, growth, and imagination
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of tomorrow. All right, my friend. Well, welcome
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to our next episode of Yes and Land. Very excited
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today because we have, I think, a very interesting
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conversation in store. Uh, we've got somebody
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here, Josh, who is an interrogator for the military,
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which is pretty cool. Um, and then in addition
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to that, he also does real estate as a real estate
0:41
broker. And, uh, you know, what's really interesting
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about that, I think is just what, uh, what we
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can learn from him about negotiations, about
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interactions with people, about, um, one of the
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topics today, which is manipulation versus influence.
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And if somebody understands those things, it's
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certainly you with both of these roles that you
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play. So very excited to jump into conversation
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with you today. Awesome. I'm glad to be here.
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And so today what we're going to do as well is
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we're going to take a journey as we talk about
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Josh's backstory and some of these topics. We're
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also going to look at this through the lens of
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some pretty interesting Disney villains. Uh,
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mother Gothel and tangled. Uh, and then lady,
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is it lady Tremaine? Is that the way you say
1:22
her name and Cinderella? Uh, I think people know
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her more as the evil stepmother. Yeah. You know,
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people don't often know what her name was, uh,
1:30
but she certainly was an evil stepmother. So
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it'd be really good to inform us, um, on these
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things and things to look out for and to avoid
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if we see ourselves starting to dive into those,
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or we see other people doing those things to
1:40
us. So, as we jump into that today, the first
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thing I want to do is kind of talk about your
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background. Like, where did you come from? How
1:47
in the world did you become an interrogator for
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the military and then also real estate? Well,
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first I came from my mother's womb. Yes, that's
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very good, right? And you didn't get raised by
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Mother Gothel, so... No, I wasn't. Actually,
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not at all. Good there. No manipulation in that
2:01
case. To win so far. Yeah. So, my backstory is
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I actually joined the military right after my
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wife and I got married. How old were you? I think
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I was like 22. You're a young guy. Pretty young,
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yeah. And she was even younger. And she looked
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way younger. Okay, so I gotta tell you this one.
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When we went on our honeymoon, we went to California,
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where I was born, and I grew up there. We went
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down there, we checked into the hotel, and they
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asked to see ID for me and for her. I'm like,
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why do you need ID? and some guy in the back
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room, he's just like, are you guys from Utah?
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I'm like, yeah, they're good. So it was pretty
2:48
funny. But she still looks young, but she now
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looks like an adult. I had that with my ex -wife.
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She looked very young. In fact, after we had
2:57
gotten married, she got a job at a preschool
3:00
that was inside of a school, an elementary school.
3:04
And one time one of the teachers stopped her
3:06
walking down the hallway because she was wearing
3:07
a backpack and thought that she was a student
3:08
at elementary school, right? And she was like
3:11
23 at the time. You're like, wow, got mistaken
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for like an 11 year old. Okay. Yikes. That's
3:17
a little rough. No, that's great. Yeah. So I
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ended up joining the military right after we
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got married a couple months and actually she
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got pregnant. And then I left her for like, you
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dirty dog eight months you dirty dog so i left
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before she had any signs of being pregnant and
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um everyone in the military was just like you
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do that on purpose avoid all the emotions um
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but i got back just like it was like a week and
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a half or two weeks before my son was born wow
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just just crazy so i was able to be there for
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his birth um that's good but yeah so i joined
3:54
the military um and then i i transferred I was
3:58
an electrician at first, quickly transferred
4:01
over because I spoke Portuguese, and that's a
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valued asset there. And I really wanted to be
4:06
in interrogations, and so I went that direction.
4:09
What drew you to that? Why did you want to be
4:11
in interrogations? Well, first, I liked the languages
4:13
aspect. So all interrogators have to have a language
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to speak. And I just loved the thought of understanding
4:21
how the mind works and how relationships and
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personal interactions come into play. And so
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it was just super invigorating for me. So I went
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down that course, did it. And I'll tell you,
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the first thing I thought when I was doing this
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course, I thought, this in the wrong hands is
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a horrible thing. And I was thinking, so many
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people could use this and take advantage of so
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many people. And I was thinking mainly for women,
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too. I'm like, oh my gosh, these guys are going
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to go and ruin these these girls lives and I'm
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just thinking it just really brought me down
5:00
like oh there's a lot of evil in this world and
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it made me question a lot of things but um and
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so that's where I think this kind of comes into
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play is a lot of times when I talk to people
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and they find out I'm an interrogator they start
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thinking oh like they're questioning like oh
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are you gonna just like do stuff to me like what
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is it you know waterboard me it's nothing like
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that at all but I'm definitely more perceptive
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to body language, tonal pitches, word usage,
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and how that all encompasses into communication.
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And one of the things I actually teach some body
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language courses, and there's different scientific
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research that shows different levels, but pretty
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much it averages around 80 % of communication
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is actually body language. No kidding. That opens
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up the door to understand people quite a bit.
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If you break it down, it's hard for someone to
6:01
know exactly what things are called, but we just
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call it the gut feeling, right? And you have
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a gut feeling because you recognize certain things
6:10
that people are doing with their body, with their
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eyes, with their hands, and then you're like,
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something feels off. It feels off because it
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is off. It's not natural or it's not normal.
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And that really comes into play with people and
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they're like, I just don't feel good. Like, something
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just feels off, but like, they're just so charismatic.
6:28
Well, most of the people who are manipulators
6:30
are very charismatic. Yeah, and that's true.
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And so learning some of these items is very important.
6:38
Simple things of people hiding their hands or
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they start covering their mouth like this, it's
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because they don't trust what's coming out of
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their own mouth. So slight things you can start
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to recognize come in hand. So yeah, I've been
6:52
doing interrogations and crypto -linguistics.
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So what languages do you speak? You speak English
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and Portuguese, I heard. Yes, and then Spanish.
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Now, I don't practice my Spanish very much. I
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do mess around when I see some of my friends
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who are from Mexico or from Brazil and they're
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like, dude, your Spanish is... is wanky. That's
7:16
because I'm not focusing on focus more on the
7:18
Portuguese. In fact, my I put my kids in the
7:21
Portuguese immersion program. So it's been kind
7:23
of fun. That's awesome. Yeah. So are they are
7:27
they picking it up pretty well? Yeah, actually,
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my three boys are doing it. How old are they?
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So I've got a 15, 13, and then almost 11 year
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olds. Okay. And they like speak it pretty well.
7:39
Yeah, the older two are pretty good, the younger
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still learning it. But it was pretty fun. Last
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summer, I was able to go on a language immersion
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with them to Portugal. Oh, no kidding. And they
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hated it because I made them speak Portuguese.
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Sure. But I was making all the other friends
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speak it too. I'm like, well, you're out here
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for immersion. Yeah, that's what we're doing.
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But I was truly impressed that they could speak
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it. And I hailed food and money hostage the whole
8:08
time. I'm like. I don't understand which means
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I don't understand. They spoke it and then I
8:14
give them money when they talk to other people
8:16
and you know in the language it was pretty good.
8:18
I like the way that you but you kind of gamified
8:19
it right and I think that's fun because ultimately
8:21
they complained about a little bit but because
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you gamified it that way probably made it a little
8:25
bit better it's probably something that I need
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to do. My daughters are At a Spanish dual immersion.
8:33
Okay, so my youngest she's she's kindergarten
8:34
So she's not in it yet should be in next year,
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but my older daughter of the two She's 10 and
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she's in fourth grade, but I struggled to get
8:41
her to speak it to me She's just like too shy
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or too scared I think I need to gamify it with
8:46
her a little bit like make it fun make it like
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here's a incentive reward for doing this with
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me and um, maybe that's it. This is good. This
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is making my wheels turn here because like it's
8:55
fun to speak it with your kid It is it's so fun
8:58
like when you can actually have a conversation
8:59
and especially when your wife doesn't understand
9:01
it the whole way then you can just like say stuff
9:04
and be like ha ha and she's like what are you
9:05
saying? Um, but yeah learning another language
9:10
is, it's very difficult. It's easier for the
9:14
kids. I actually struggled with it, learning
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it. First off, I went on a religious mission
9:21
for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day
9:22
Saints, down to Brazil. And the funny thing about
9:27
that was, I barely graduated high school. So,
9:32
I really didn't learn to read until I was like
9:34
12. I struggled with dyslexia, ADD, And they
9:39
even put me in a program called RSP. I think
9:42
it's called the resource here. Um, but RSP, um,
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it was, I don't know what it stood for, but all
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I remember is the kids, what they called it was
9:52
really stupid people. And so that's kind of,
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that's brutal as a kid. And for something that
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actually like, I think just really wasn't understood
10:00
back when, when you and I were growing up, but
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I just not understood at all that dyslexia, it
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doesn't mean that you're Dumb or stupid at all.
10:07
It just means you see things differently and
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you, so it doesn't look the same way to you.
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Right. And ADD or ADHD, like those things just
10:15
cognitively affect your ability to pay attention
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is to keep attention focused on things. Right.
10:20
Sitting down in the classroom. That was like,
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it was brutal killer for me. Right. It's real.
10:24
My, my, uh, 16 year old is in that right now.
10:26
He's got, he's got ADHD and it's tough, you know,
10:30
trying to have him sit down and like pound out
10:32
homework at the end of the day, like I used to.
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Oh, no, it doesn't work like he's it's like little
10:36
chunks. He's got to do a little chunk. He's got
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to take a break He's got to do a little chunk.
10:39
Take a break. Otherwise, it just it just doesn't
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work for him But you know, what what do you think
10:44
that did for you having to experience that? You
10:47
don't want anybody to have to experience tough
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things But how do you think that shaped you as
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you got older where you had to go through those
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experiences? You know I've kind of looked at
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this over the years and i've taken the approach
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is that People have different talents and attributes
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And you kind of have to hone in on your attributes
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rather than try to change them. It's figuring
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how do you use this to an advantage, right? And
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so for me, I use this advantage because now I
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had to pay attention a lot more. And I would
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use that to be very organized. And so that disadvantage,
11:30
if you want to call it, actually became an advantage
11:32
for me. and I was very analytical and focused
11:36
on paying attention. And, you know, to the point
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where I kind of became obsessive with certain
11:44
tasks, because I knew if I wasn't hyper -focused
11:47
on something, I would just lose my mindset. And
11:51
so, making, coming up with lists, and my wife
11:55
is just like, you always have to have your list.
11:57
And whether it's vacations or everything else...
12:00
I, okay, we're gonna have another funny story.
12:04
So my wife and I are planning vacation. We're
12:06
going, I think it was down in, um, it was either
12:09
San Diego or Anaheim, California. We go to the
12:11
beach. We love the beach. And I literally planned
12:15
out time. This is my relax, do nothing time because
12:20
there's nothing worse than me not knowing what's
12:22
going on. My mind is just like running like,
12:24
okay, what am I supposed to do? And so my wife
12:26
is like, you have to Plan when you're not gonna
12:29
do anything and I'm like, yes I just need to
12:33
know what I'm doing. If I know I'm doing nothing
12:35
then I can relax and then she's like you're ridiculous
12:38
and I embrace it and I embrace that I'm ridiculous
12:43
Yeah, no, I I'm gonna bit the same way I like
12:46
to have a plan and so we do go on vacation Especially
12:49
if my wife's planned a lot of it I was like,
12:52
okay, what's the plan? What are we doing here?
12:54
Well, we're not doing anything. But what's next?
12:56
What should I be getting ready for? What do I
12:58
need to prep for? Mentally, what am I going to
13:00
get up for? I was going to drive her crazy, but
13:03
I like to have the idea of what's happening because
13:06
I don't feel like I can relax otherwise. I feel
13:09
like I got to be the one that is paying attention
13:11
to what it is to keep things moving, keep it
13:13
on a schedule. You work with deadlines. Those
13:16
are so important. End up you're in the military.
13:21
You're in linguistics and You wanted to be an
13:25
interrogator. Yeah, what was it like to actually
13:27
become one? Like I'm assuming there's some kind
13:29
of qualification process that you've got to go
13:31
through to do it Yeah, so you have to have a
13:33
TS So it's a top secret security clearance, right?
13:38
And then when I did crypto linguistics, you have
13:40
to get an SCI. So it's just meaning that you
13:42
can go into their sensitive compartmentalized
13:46
rooms, where they can look at top secret documents
13:50
and all that stuff. So you have to have an additional
13:52
scrutiny on that. The process, though, is it's
13:57
pretty lengthy when you're getting your top secret
14:00
security clearance. This is another fun story.
14:06
So I was going through my initial. Actually,
14:09
I don't think it's my initial. I think it's my
14:11
second top secret security clearance. After a
14:13
few years, you have to renew it and go through
14:14
background checks. My first experience, I was
14:17
at UVU, still studying. And then I'm walking
14:20
out one of my evening classes, and all of a sudden
14:22
this guy walks up next to me. He's like, follow
14:24
me. And I'm like, OK. And he's like, don't look
14:29
at me directly, but I'm with the FBI. I'm here
14:31
for your safety. And I'm like, OK, yeah. So I
14:34
walk him. I'm not worried, because I haven't
14:36
done anything. I just thought it was funny that
14:39
they get to practice their options there. And
14:42
he's just like, yeah, so why do you talk to these
14:44
people? I'm like, well, I was in a mission to
14:47
Brazil. And yeah, I talked to a lot of foreigners,
14:50
because they're really worried about your foreign
14:51
interactions. And so as a missionary, you've
14:55
got a ton of them. Sure. And even after your
14:58
mission, you're still talking people. And so
15:00
that's like a red flag for FBI, NSA, for the
15:05
military, and your security clearances. So they
15:07
scrutinize everything from the past 10 years.
15:10
Oh, goodness. So who you talk to on a regular
15:12
basis, any foreign travel, all of your addresses
15:17
over the past 10 years, everyone you worked with,
15:21
your family, where they've lived for the past
15:23
few years. I mean, it's just the paperwork was
15:25
like, I want to say like 50 pages of just information
15:29
of people and and that's the the suckiest part
15:33
of doing that sure but you know the process can
15:36
take anywhere from like six months to even longer
15:38
some people who have married someone in another
15:40
country it takes like a couple years if they
15:43
even get it so um that's that process but um
15:48
that's the biggest step into that and then you
15:51
have to go through interrogation school which
15:52
is a A very intense course. And you start early
16:01
in the morning. You go to lay at night. They
16:02
put you in stressful situations. And then you
16:05
have to do a lot of research, figure out how
16:07
to fill out forms and everything else. Obviously,
16:08
we can't talk about certain techniques. But then
16:13
you go and do these interrogations. They go into
16:16
this booth. And it's all simulated. So you've
16:19
got someone who's experienced who then takes
16:20
on a role of a terrorist or anything like that.
16:23
And then you have to practice these techniques
16:25
without breaking the law of warfare. And so you're
16:29
like, OK. They drill it into you. It's like,
16:32
if you break this, you will go to jail. And then
16:35
you're like, oh, great. I'm not like an attorney.
16:37
And you have an attorney who comes in, a JAG
16:39
officer, and it's like, yeah, you will go to
16:41
jail. And we will prosecute you. Oh, my goodness.
16:44
So it's like, so the army's against us. You know,
16:47
Geneva Conventions, all this stuff. They're like,
16:49
you've got to know it in and out. You can't mean
16:52
like, to some point, they can't even feel threatened.
16:56
Like, you have to reassure them that they're
16:58
like, am I safe? You have to like, oh, yes, you're
17:00
safe. And I thought that was so interesting that
17:03
we play by those rules when a lot of other countries,
17:06
they don't. Russia doesn't. China absolutely
17:10
doesn't. North Korea doesn't. So here's what's
17:13
so interesting to me. Like, all the things you're
17:15
describing is a really intense school with a
17:17
lot of study, a lot of perfecting something that's
17:20
very difficult. Not many people can do it. And
17:23
this is coming from the kid that was in the stupid
17:25
class, right? Like, yeah, like, I mean, first
17:28
off, it just goes to show you why sometimes what
17:31
kids say are just so inappropriate and so damaging
17:33
and hurtful, but also that, like, that wasn't
17:35
the case. Just because you had dyslexia and you
17:38
had ADD, it just meant you needed to find the
17:40
right way or right vehicle to be able to learn.
17:42
So how did you do that? How did you go from struggling
17:45
to barely graduate to now you're in this intense
17:47
program that very few people could complete?
17:50
Well, I think this comes back to my mission.
17:54
um i didn't know what an adverb a verb and i
17:57
knew what a noun was that was like the one thing
17:59
i knew an adjective all that stuff i had no idea
18:01
because i barely passed you know me through high
18:03
school and and honestly a few teachers passed
18:07
me because they're like all right you know you
18:10
work hard sure and in fact i was student of the
18:12
month in one of my math classes but i had the
18:14
lowest grade because i was just in there trying
18:16
to figure this out trying so hard yeah and and
18:18
so when i got my mission communication It was
18:22
horrible. I'd be speaking, but no one understood
18:27
a single thing I was saying. They're just like,
18:31
mm -hmm, mm -hmm, yeah, sure. And it got to the
18:33
point where even most missionaries will learn
18:36
the language within four to six months, at least
18:39
enough to communicate. I was just struggling.
18:42
And so what I did was I said, well, I'm going
18:44
to have to memorize everything, because this
18:45
whole structure, sentence, and grammar stuff,
18:49
I can't figure that out right now. So I had this
18:53
huge book, a notebook, seriously, like that thick.
18:57
And I just started going through the words and
19:00
I would write out the tenses and give examples
19:04
of sentences. And then I would memorize all those
19:08
sentences. I'm like, I can memorize something
19:11
that can say, oh, wait, that's that phrase I
19:13
can I can use now. Right. It really took me about
19:17
a year and a half to actually start speaking
19:20
the language. And then at that point, I learned
19:23
that I can now go back and now I understood what
19:27
the phrases were and the meanings were. I'm like,
19:30
I'm going to start trying to learn grammar. And
19:33
so then as I started learning Portuguese grammar,
19:35
I started to understand that's what they meant
19:38
in English. And so it started to kind of capture.
19:41
But it was, I would spend hours each day. And
19:45
as I read you know, the Scriptures in both languages,
19:49
and I did that as well, and it just... I had
19:54
to just keep working even till, like, after my
19:56
mission. I kept taking classes, I kept, you know,
19:59
studying it. My wife was super supportive. I
20:03
started labeling stuff in the house just to keep
20:05
my mind going, and I did in Spanish and Portuguese,
20:08
and... Now I think back, I'm like, wow, she was
20:11
so supportive, but it's like the fridge. When
20:14
did you serve a mission? What years? It was 2006
20:17
to 2008. Okay, so at that point in time, you
20:20
guys were doing Preach My Gospel. That's correct.
20:22
So for those of you who don't know, who listen,
20:25
so missionaries in the Church of Jesus Christ
20:27
of Latter -day Saints, it used to be, back when
20:29
I served, that you memorized the things that
20:31
you were going to go teach people, and that's
20:33
what I had to do. Before we jump back in, can
20:37
I ask you a quick favor? If you're enjoying the
20:39
journey so far, will you like, rate, and subscribe
20:43
to our show? It helps us reach more people like
20:46
you. We can design and create and build the most
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wonderful place in the world, but it takes people
20:52
to make the dream a reality. The memorized discussions
21:07
were actually great for me. I serve Spanish speaking
21:09
in Seattle. Yeah, so I was not immersed in the
21:11
language. I was not speaking it every day I'm
21:13
trying my best to and like my initial companion
21:16
was from Guatemala, but had been living in the
21:18
States But he was like, nope, speak your language.
21:20
Speak your language What he was try to tell me
21:21
to speak Spanish, but it was hard Yeah, we knocked
21:23
doors all day and you're speaking English because
21:25
most of people talk to you. It's English and
21:27
then here I'm trying to learn it So memorizing
21:29
the things I was gonna teach just like kind of
21:30
like you did Well, that was the best thing for
21:32
me to learn Spanish because then I could draw
21:35
back on those phrases when things would come
21:37
up And then I would be like, okay i'm here in
21:39
this zone i'm talking about like religious words
21:42
and it's a much more limited thing that i can
21:44
go and memorize and learn these things and that's
21:46
how i got by yeah my spanish even now is joking
21:48
with with one of our employees today who uh she's
21:51
a native spanish speaker She was like, you don't
21:54
consider yourself like a dual, dual language.
21:56
I was like, no, like I like to speak Spanish
21:58
and I try, but like it's limited. Okay. It's
22:01
limited and it's fun, but it's very limited.
22:05
I can say that. Right. I remember that little
22:08
chihuahua and those commercials. It was amazing
22:10
commercials. So, um, in let's, let's wrap it
22:15
over to kind of what we're talking about with
22:17
this topic of what do you learn in going through
22:20
interrogation school? and these experiences you
22:23
have about the differences between manipulation
22:27
and influence, because that's one of the topics
22:29
we're going to talk about today. How did that
22:30
inform you in figuring those things out? This
22:33
is one that I actually honed in on my experience
22:37
in the military. I got into real estate, but
22:41
also having worked in, I worked for the US House
22:45
of Representatives, worked for a couple of congressmen,
22:47
Jason Chaffetz and John Curtis. And there's a
22:53
lot of manipulation that goes on there, too.
22:54
Oh, for sure, in politics. Yeah, no question.
22:57
Absolutely. And I remember one instance I was
23:00
out in DC, and then a group met with me. And
23:02
I'm just like, this guy is lying left and right,
23:04
his body, just everything. I'm just like, oh,
23:07
just let him believe that he's winning one over.
23:10
But I'm like, wow, this is just nonstop. So with
23:14
that experience and in the interrogation training,
23:18
as I was kind of thinking about this whole scenario,
23:20
I'm like, Okay, so what what's the what's that
23:23
boundary because I'm looking at this is between
23:26
Okay, you know people do sales people, you know,
23:29
you know influence, right? It's like you're you're
23:32
helping people well manipulation, it's like You're
23:37
it's kind of influence, right? And so it took
23:40
me a couple of years to really figure it out,
23:41
but I broke it down to Being a one -word differentiator
23:46
and that was beneficiary so When you're thinking
23:51
about this, in both cases, you're trying to get
23:52
someone to do something. When it's influence,
23:59
you are actually looking out for the interests
24:01
of the other person. You might benefit from it
24:04
as well, but you're actually caring and looking
24:08
out for their best interests. So I look at that
24:11
as, let's say my son, he wants to become a better
24:16
wrestler or basketball player, right? I'm going
24:18
to influence him. to work hard, right? I might
24:22
get satisfaction of seeing him succeed, right?
24:24
Sure. But I'm trying to help him. Yeah. Versus
24:27
when you're manipulating someone, you are the
24:30
beneficiary, not necessarily the other party.
24:35
And so... At least not the primary focus, right?
24:36
And the manipulation, the primary driving factor
24:38
is to benefit yourself. Exactly. And so when
24:43
you're manipulating someone, it's... a lot of
24:47
times it's you're trying to get them to do something
24:50
a lot of times it's with urgency right so they're
24:54
feeling forced or they're feeling afraid and
24:58
so you're using emotions you're using emotions
25:02
on both but you're using detrimental emotions
25:06
when you're trying to manipulate someone usually
25:10
it's done with fear and so that's a very common
25:14
tactic a fear of missing out. It's a fear of
25:18
what's going to happen to me, a fear of, you
25:21
know, what will be said about me or my family
25:25
or whatever else, right? And you see this common
25:28
in politics. Fear is constantly used. In fact...
25:33
Fear is such a high driver of emotion, right?
25:36
People... will take action quicker based off
25:38
of fear than just about any other emotion they
25:40
experience. Yes. And that's why that's why in
25:41
the news you see it's like it's fear based like
25:43
they know it gets views they know it gets clicks
25:45
on on social media like the fear drives people's
25:49
actions and emotions. Yes you're absolutely right
25:50
it's it's quick reaction and the media likes
25:54
that like you were saying because they can keep
25:57
your attention and they try to make you irate
26:00
so that way you're like you oh I've got to see
26:01
what's going on now so they're using that that
26:04
fear tactic. Now, fear is not the strongest emotion
26:09
out there. A lot of people think that it is.
26:11
It's a quick reaction emotion. Actually, love
26:14
is a more long -lasting emotion. Fear is actually
26:19
draining. And so you think about when you watch
26:22
politics or anything online, the news media,
26:25
people aren't necessarily feeling like, oh, wow.
26:27
I feel so great. I'm excited to go on and do
26:30
something else now. They're like, oh, the world's
26:32
going to end. There's wars everywhere, all sorts
26:35
of stuff, right? And with love, it's a calm but
26:41
long lasting. It's like, I feel comfortable.
26:44
And you know what? I'm energized now. So that's
26:49
where you kind of think about this, is when you're
26:52
interacting with people, one of the things that
26:53
comes into play with Lady Tremaine and Mother
26:58
Gothel, right? They both used fear. For sure.
27:05
And they would focus on, there's a few, there's
27:10
so many, I'm thinking of so many on top of my
27:12
head right now, but there's a few specific actions
27:14
that they would use, and they're manipulative,
27:16
right? So when we talk about, like in the movie
27:22
Tangled, Mother Gothel, right? There's, there's
27:27
lots of scenes, but there's a scene when it's
27:30
mother knows best. Yeah. The song, which is a
27:33
great song. Can you sing it? Oh, I mean, I can't
27:35
sing at all. I'm a terrible singer, but that,
27:37
that song is like, when we first started talking
27:39
about this and I thought about it, I was like,
27:41
that song perfectly embodies this idea because
27:44
it's pure manipulation. Exactly. Like through
27:46
and through. So, and this is very, very common.
27:50
So What Mother Gothel does is she goes and talks
27:54
to Rapunzel, right? And Rapunzel's like, hey,
27:57
I want to share this. Mother knows best. But
28:01
then she turns it around and makes like, you
28:05
would do that to me? How could you? I'm now the
28:10
victim. And people will call that gaslighting,
28:13
right? So what is gaslighting? The term is misused
28:17
multiple times. And overused a lot of times,
28:19
too. Yes. But it's really turning the tension
28:24
pretty much back on you, and then taking what
28:29
they're trying to say, and then saying something
28:31
else to make them feel bad for what they initially
28:35
wanted to talk about first. So in this case,
28:37
she's talking about being outside, going outside
28:40
of the tower, and she's like, no, you'll get
28:44
hurt. Now we're using the fear. There's so many
28:47
evil things out there. It's so scary out there.
28:50
Yeah, you can't handle it. Yeah, like you can't
28:52
with all the men with pointy teeth, right? Oh,
28:54
it's just gonna be so scary And this is about
28:57
you, right? I'm trying to protect you Yeah, when
29:00
in reality, like you said like it wasn't and
29:03
even even if it's not even a An evil stepmother
29:06
or evil stepfather, you know whomever it is people
29:10
can still manipulate and they may not even know
29:13
that they're doing it, but they're just They
29:16
want to keep control. It really is about control
29:19
And so sometimes mothers or fathers or boyfriends
29:24
or husbands or whatever it is, they're afraid
29:28
to lose control. And then they start, you know,
29:32
overly blaming the other party. And so what that
29:38
does is it creates a desire like, well, I really
29:41
love this person. I don't want them to hurt.
29:44
And they're like, well, maybe I'm wrong. Right.
29:46
So you start to have some self -doubt. It's a
29:50
very, very common tactic used by manipulators.
29:54
And yeah, I think Mother Gothel, there's so many
29:57
parts to that whole scene. I mean, she was manipulating
29:59
everyone, even to like the guards in another
30:01
scene. She used them to get what she wanted and
30:04
then betrayed them to then betray the next person,
30:07
right? And so the thing I would say in that scenario,
30:14
how do you address someone like that? You really
30:18
have to kind of come back and say, you ask them
30:22
a couple of questions and you say, so how does
30:25
this benefit me? Someone's going to say, well,
30:28
you know, this is good for you. Like, well, I
30:30
don't, I, this sounds like it's benefiting you.
30:32
Can you explain further how it benefits me? So
30:35
now they're having to elaborate. And when someone
30:39
truly believes something, they, they, or they've
30:43
already figured something out in their mind.
30:45
It comes from memory. when someone is lying,
30:50
it actually is from the creative side of the
30:52
brain. And so this is where it's different. There'll
30:55
be a delay. Usually, I mean, there might be a
30:57
delay response, and people are thinking about
30:59
stuff. But when you're asking for past memories,
31:03
if you think they're lying, you just ask them
31:05
a question that they weren't expecting, and then
31:08
see how they respond. And they start thinking
31:10
like, well, like, They're trying to either say
31:17
something that is not lying, but is misleading,
31:22
or they're afraid to answer a certain way that
31:26
would then show that they are lying. So they're
31:28
trying to manipulate the words in their minds
31:30
and trying to figure out, OK, how do I say this
31:33
and make them think something different? There's
31:39
a lot of ways to say, to get somebody to feel
31:46
that they are believing what the person is saying.
31:52
I might ask you a question, right? There's a
31:54
great example of this. I don't know if you remember
31:56
Anthony Weiner? Yeah. Okay. So he was a congressman.
32:00
I can't remember of which state. Well, he got
32:02
caught with some lewd pictures, right? And then
32:04
people start asking him and then they catch him
32:07
and they say, Hey, Well, the reporters were asking,
32:12
yeah, tell us about these these little pictures.
32:14
Did you receive these little pictures? And he's
32:16
like, if I'm to be in front of a group and someone's
32:21
to throw a pie at me, and am I going to respond
32:26
to them? And then he's like, I'm just asking
32:30
you, did you or not receive pictures from this
32:33
young lady? And he's like, again, if I'm to receive,
32:38
and it just repeats, right? So that's one tactic
32:40
people will use. They'll repeat the same thing
32:42
without changing it because they don't want to
32:44
mess up because they've rehearsed their line.
32:46
Another thing that they'll do is they'll say,
32:49
like, if I were to ask you a question or ask
32:51
me any question right now. How's the weather
32:55
outside? Well, my office is actually pretty warm,
32:58
so I'm actually not cold at all right now. Oh,
33:02
that was a non -answer of what I actually asked.
33:04
Well, see, I answered you, but I didn't answer
33:06
the question, or I might answer the question
33:09
half -heartedly. Yeah, or the way that you wanted
33:11
to. Exactly, because now they're like, oh, oh,
33:14
I guess, okay, they feel awkward to then question
33:16
you again the same question. This is very common
33:19
with kids. Because I wouldn't have. I wouldn't
33:20
have been like, well... no josh what's the weather
33:23
like outside i didn't ask what your office was
33:25
or what you're feeling right now because now
33:26
i could take offense yeah like i don't want to
33:28
offend him like he answered the best way he could
33:30
i'm yeah oh that's so interesting and so kids
33:32
do this all the time like if you ask your kids
33:33
and i do this with my my kids and they still
33:35
the problem is when i call them out they get
33:37
better so i'm like do i call them out do i not
33:39
call them out but i'm like did you brush your
33:41
teeth and they said yes i did okay Today? Yeah.
33:46
Did you brush them just now? Did you brush them
33:48
long enough? Was it three seconds? Exactly. Did
33:50
you use toothpaste? And it's like, was it yesterday?
33:53
All those things, they've gone really good at
33:55
lying to me. And I'm like, almost proud. But
33:59
I'm like, I don't know how this can go, right?
34:03
But yeah, so that's the situation. I think Mother
34:09
Gothel in Tangled, she gives so many examples.
34:12
And I would encourage you guys watching, go ahead
34:16
and watch Tangled again and start looking for
34:18
symptoms or indicators of her manipulating. Think
34:23
in your mind, okay, what's she doing to manipulate?
34:25
As you start to do that, you'll be able to recognize
34:27
how other people are manipulating you in everyday
34:30
aspects. Well, I think what's interesting too
34:31
is people can think about Tangled, be like, well,
34:34
yeah, I know that Mother Gothel was off and I
34:36
know that she did, but might not realize the
34:38
times that she did until you go back and you're
34:40
like, oh my God. gosh it's right there and and
34:44
it's right there and it's there again make it
34:46
a game tally it like wow i think one of the things
34:48
that she does a lot of in this manipulation is
34:50
she she works and operates in the shame game
34:53
she's shaming oh yes you know uh rapunzel all
34:56
the time and i think there's the one time where
34:58
she's going to come back up the tower and rapunzel
35:00
always has to let her hair down and So she does
35:02
and mother Gothel is basically like, Oh man,
35:05
it must be really exhausting for you have to
35:06
do this every day. And you know, let me back
35:08
up and down. She's like, Oh no, it's no problem
35:10
mother. Yeah. I don't know why it takes so long.
35:13
Right. You're like, Whoa, like that's messed
35:15
up. That's manipulation. Right. She was getting
35:18
Rapunzel to say it was no problem. Like she's
35:20
manipulating her to say that just so that she
35:22
could cut her and be like, no, you need to do
35:24
it faster. You did too slow. You're way too slow.
35:26
I'm manipulating you. I want you to do it faster.
35:27
I'm going to shame you for not. Yeah. I mean,
35:29
that's. and it's sprinkled with all this sweetness
35:32
to you it's like she says it in a sweet way and
35:34
really it's like so cutting and so cruel and
35:38
so harsh yeah and this ties into um lady tremaine
35:43
i think one of the scenes that i like best again
35:46
multiple um options there you should watch next
35:49
both of them next together and see how many you
35:51
can count um but it's the scene where cinderella's
35:55
got her dress um and then they start ripping
36:00
like, pieces off the dress. And what they're
36:03
trying to do is diminish her sense of significance,
36:07
right? And make her feel like dirt. You know,
36:11
Cinderella, I guess, Ash, right? That's what
36:13
the cinder is. So that's what they're trying
36:14
to make her feel like she's worth nothing. And
36:18
that way they can maintain control. And I think
36:21
this kind of goes back into the military aspect.
36:23
If you're dealing with terrorists, right, they're
36:25
not usually the nicest people. But what you're
36:29
trained to look at is like, well, you're dealing
36:31
with emotions, right? And you can make someone
36:35
feel like they're worth nothing. You can make
36:38
them feel like they're worth a million bucks.
36:41
But the people who are really good at manipulating
36:43
and integrations are manipulation. I mean, that's
36:46
just what it is. But you want to figure out a
36:50
sense of balance, right? Because if you give
36:52
someone just a little bit of hope and then you
36:55
tear that down, Then there's like oh I'm dependent
37:00
on this this person now because I'm not worth
37:02
anything The same thing like you might tear them
37:04
down and then give them a little sense of hope
37:07
So then now you're like, I'm your way out I'm
37:11
gonna be the one that protects you and I think
37:12
mother Gothel does that and then Tremaine Tremaine
37:14
does too right because like when there's this
37:17
ball coming up Lady Tremaine gives Cinderella
37:20
the hope that if she can have a dress to go,
37:23
that she can go. So she's torn her down, torn
37:25
her down. She's the one who has to cook and clean
37:27
and do all these things for them all the time.
37:29
But then she gives her this sliver of hope. So
37:31
that's where she goes. Which was an unrealistic
37:33
expectation. Totally. Yeah. But she goes and
37:35
creates this very, you know, beautiful dress
37:37
with the things that she had with the scraps
37:39
that they didn't want at all. Yeah. But she can't
37:42
let her have it. So after that hope, then she's
37:44
got to tear her down. And that's when they...
37:45
the dress off. Now I do want to stop and pause
37:48
here because I think I could be wrong, but I
37:50
think you have a story about step, uh, step sisters
37:54
and dresses. Is this, is this true? Josh? You
37:57
got to tell the story. And I sent you these pictures.
38:00
So you have to show them to the group. But, um,
38:04
so I've, I'm usually like on top of like the
38:07
Halloween costumes. My wife doesn't care for
38:09
them at all. Every once in a while I get her
38:11
to dress up, but she's like, okay, it's a family
38:14
thing. She hates Halloween. overall she loves
38:16
Valentine's Day so I got to make sure oh yeah
38:18
on that one you step up yeah but um so we we're
38:22
going down to Disneyland during Halloween yes
38:25
which is the most that's the best time it's the
38:27
most magical time at Disneyland it is it's actually
38:30
pretty cool I love it so cool yeah and so I dropped
38:34
the ball in this time because I'm so busy with
38:36
work and everything else I'm like we have nothing
38:38
but my daughter's got like a legitimate Cinderella
38:41
costume you can probably see it right here now
38:43
blue it's like a very nice one. I'm like, it's
38:46
not a costume, it's an actual dress. I can't
38:50
remember why she got it, but my wife and her
38:53
love to go shopping sometimes. So she's got that.
38:56
And the rest of us are like, what are we going
38:57
to do? I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, oh,
39:02
Cinderella. She's got the dress. It looks just
39:04
like it. And so we don't have any costumes. So
39:07
I go to my mom like, do you have anything that
39:09
can make us look like the ugly stepsisters? And
39:12
I got the boys. One of them was like, yeah, this
39:15
is so cool. The oldest was like, seriously, dad?
39:19
The second one's like, I don't know. And then
39:22
we started talking about it. He's like, OK, this
39:23
is going to be funny. And so we're down there.
39:27
We dress up. And you see in the picture right
39:30
here is that we look hideous, right? And I'm
39:36
just wearing this dress. And I'm just like. You
39:40
know flexing and stuff and this just looks hilarious.
39:44
Well as we start walking through Disneyland I
39:48
kid you not I'm getting catcall left and right
39:52
and Just like I now I know how fit women feel.
39:55
Yeah, it doesn't feel good to get catcalled and
39:58
so but I did tell my wife I'm like, well, I'm
40:00
pretty attractive but As we're walking down waiting
40:06
in line for one of the the rides or I don't I
40:10
remember what it was and I'm just like I'm getting
40:13
like a little little and I just sneeze and I
40:17
just because it's so tight on me because it's
40:19
not supposed to fit me just rip the whole back
40:22
and just rips down I'm like oh no and so my kids
40:26
are laughing like the whole time but my daughter
40:30
had an absolute blast she loved it because she's
40:33
the one that looked pretty of course the rest
40:35
of us were not great My wife, she dressed up
40:37
as the evil step -mother. And then we were just
40:40
ugly step -sisters. It was pretty funny. Easy.
40:44
I just went to my mom and she had some leftover
40:48
dresses from proms and my sister's drill team
40:52
and random stuff. That's part of what's so interesting
40:56
for me with Disney and Disney movies. And part
40:59
of why I think I really enjoy them so much is...
41:01
You can have the aspects that kids enjoy and
41:04
love. They love Cinderella. They love the dress.
41:07
They love Tangle. They love Rapunzel. And yet
41:09
when we do look deeper, there really are lessons
41:12
we can take, right? Because obviously, like,
41:14
the ugly stepsisters, it's hilarious. Your wife,
41:16
Slady Tremaine, it's probably hilarious. Your
41:19
daughter, cute as all get out. And we can also
41:22
look a little deeper and we can say, okay, what
41:24
are these things that these stories can teach
41:27
us? Because I mean, ultimately, you know, when,
41:29
when Walt started, started making these movies,
41:31
he was drawing on these, these fairy tales of
41:34
old that were designed to teach like morality
41:37
stories to people, right? scaring them a little
41:41
bit of, you know, monsters and stuff that were
41:42
there if they didn't do the things they were
41:44
supposed to, but really was originally designed
41:45
that way. And Walt always said that his movies
41:48
were for everybody. They weren't just for kids.
41:50
And so, you know, I love, I love being able to
41:53
pull out these lessons. And I think, you know,
41:55
with Lady Tremaine and with Mother Gothel, they're
41:57
such extreme examples. And yet there's so many
42:01
times where we can see the manipulations from
42:03
people around us, where we can see people trying
42:05
to manipulate us. Or we even sometimes fall into
42:09
those traps ourselves. What would you say of
42:11
like, what are ways that you can pay attention
42:14
and watch out for falling into some of those
42:16
manipulation traps that people oftentimes do,
42:18
even unintentionally? So even in my field, in
42:22
real estate, right? A lot of times people think
42:25
it's a cutthroat, you know, negotiations. And...
42:33
I actually, I think you can get a lot further
42:35
with influence than you can with manipulation.
42:38
Especially when someone recognizes it, because
42:40
you don't feel good when you're being manipulated.
42:43
When you're influenced, you feel good about it.
42:47
And so I've come at this in negotiations, I don't
42:51
go in and try to just tear people down. And,
42:54
you know, instead I'm trying to find what is
43:00
their... their motive, what's their motivator,
43:03
right? And this is key too. Everyone's got different
43:06
motivators. A lot of people think it's money.
43:08
That's not, it's never money. Rarely. Yeah. Rarely
43:11
the case. It's what they can get from that money
43:15
is what their true motivators, whether it's power,
43:19
whether it's prestige or it's luxury, you know,
43:22
living, you know, it can be service, all sorts
43:25
of stuff, right? It can be security. So those
43:30
are actual motivators. not money necessarily.
43:35
Very few people. It can, in some cases, be. So
43:38
when you look at the motivators, you say, OK,
43:40
what is it really important to you? I'll give
43:42
an example. One of my clients, he was a veteran,
43:45
and he couldn't afford enough. And I'm like,
43:48
well, we're up against competition. And so I
43:51
reached out to the group and said, guys, look,
43:53
my client's willing to pay this, but it doesn't
43:56
appraise. Other people will only pay above. But
43:59
what this does do is it does help my veteran
44:02
clients. And this is who they are. This is what's
44:06
taking place here. And they said, you know what?
44:09
We don't normally do this, but we've got enough
44:11
spread that we'll move forward. So that's an
44:14
influence. It's not a manipulation, right? Manipulation
44:17
would be the opposite of like, you guys are going
44:19
to screw up this couple. They're going to be
44:21
homeless. How dare you? And then getting that
44:24
fear factor like, oh, you're going to remember
44:27
this the rest of your life. That's the fear.
44:29
No one feels good about it. Can it work? Absolutely.
44:32
But influence is a much stronger tactic, because
44:36
it also helps you shine in any sort of business.
44:42
In your personal lives, this is important, too,
44:44
because spouses influence each other. They can
44:48
also manipulate each other. And I've taught this
44:51
to my daughter recently. She's learned the manipulation
44:55
game with the brothers and us. But I taught her
45:00
and said, hey, if you come at this in a softer
45:02
way and you say, hey, brother, it would mean
45:07
a lot to me if you would help me out with this
45:09
chore. And I love it when you help me out. And
45:13
she did it. And he just lit up because now he
45:17
felt like he was a good brother versus, ah, I'm
45:20
going to tell mom that you refuse to do anything,
45:23
right? Do both of them work sometimes sometimes
45:26
influence carries a much stronger weight. Yeah,
45:29
you know when we're talking about this in relation
45:31
to Anytime we're selling something I've always
45:35
thought about it. I shouldn't say always I've
45:36
more recently thought about it when I thought
45:38
more deeply about this Is that when when someone's
45:41
manipulated to buy something? they're almost
45:44
always going to have buyer's remorse. Oh, absolutely.
45:47
And when someone's influence, because it actually
45:48
is benefiting them, they don't have the buyer's
45:51
remorse. In teaching my attorneys here, and now
45:55
our sales people staff that we have here since
45:57
I started this firm, it's one thing that I've
45:59
always going to beat in their heads is like,
46:01
you need to run this consultation process in
46:04
a way that the person feels good about moving
46:07
forward with us. We need to actually believe
46:09
that we're gonna do something good with them
46:11
for them for their case that if they hire us
46:12
They're actually going to be better if you have
46:13
to believe because if you don't we are manipulating
46:15
because you're only benefiting yourself But the
46:17
last thing that I want is that person signing
46:19
up with us that day and then the next day regretting
46:22
it Absolutely, we can't have it because now we're
46:24
actually representing them over the next On average
46:26
10 months and if we're doing that and they immediately
46:29
started out with buyer's remorse We've started
46:31
out the wrong way. We've done the wrong thing
46:33
and so we have to engage in influence and not
46:36
manipulation because Frankly, our business counts
46:39
on it for us to get people that. to listen to
46:43
what we give them advice and to want to engage
46:45
in the process here and try to be effective in
46:49
our representation. We've got to have them bought
46:51
in from the beginning. And I imagine the same
46:53
thing probably works with you. If you're manipulating
46:55
somebody to do something in real estate and they
46:58
have buyer's remorse, that's not going to be
47:00
an effective way for you to run your business.
47:01
Yeah, because you're trying to run your business
47:03
long term. And so there are plenty of people
47:05
who will do one and done, take advantage, make
47:07
a lot of money. they won't get that repeat business
47:11
right and I think this goes back to couples especially
47:13
I think this is where it can be super helpful
47:15
and help avoid divorces you know the the situation
47:20
is my wife could come to me and say why don't
47:25
you help around with the dishes right the common
47:28
common thing or take out the trash whatever the
47:30
chore is right um or you just sit down and watch
47:33
tv and say but she she came to me said I appreciate
47:38
When you turn off the TV and you help me with
47:39
the dishes, that means so much to me. Thanks
47:42
for all that you do. I'm gonna be like, oh, where's
47:44
the dishes, right? And in the inverse too, if
47:47
you're saying to your spouse, and this isn't
47:49
for all couples, but if the wife is making dinner
47:53
and you're like, where's my dinner? Like, I'm
47:55
home. I've been working all day long. Well, he
47:58
said, hey, you know, thanks so much. I know you've
48:00
been handling the kids. And I just appreciate
48:02
when you make me dinner, even when it's been
48:04
busy. Like, just appreciation. Then then people
48:08
aren't dreading. It's not like work. It's like
48:10
oh, I am excited I'm happy to do this because
48:14
I get appreciated for it Yeah, that's huge. I
48:17
mean and it's part of it is the thinking outside
48:20
of yourself, right? Who is the beneficiary of
48:22
that? Like are you saying it just so they'll
48:25
make you dinner next time are you saying it because
48:26
you actually want them to be appreciated for
48:28
what they do and People will sniff it out. Yeah,
48:31
like I'm gonna go manipulate. Hey, honey. I really
48:34
love you make a dinner for me, right? Yeah it's
48:36
it's gonna it's gonna come across tallow it's
48:38
not gonna be genuine but if it is if you truly
48:40
mean it so like go into it mean it if you're
48:42
gonna say it uh but it does like it it resonates
48:45
you know and uh my wife's been really good about
48:48
this in the last year she knows that like because
48:51
i own this firm and i run it a lot of times i'm
48:53
having to work late late days and sometimes having
48:56
to work on the weekends and every couple of weeks
48:59
it seems like she'll just send me a text or just
49:01
tell me like hey i really appreciate how hard
49:02
you're working for us. And I know that you're
49:05
sacrificing to provide for me. That's like, it's
49:07
the best. Have you seen those memes where they
49:09
have like the shark coming up, biting something,
49:11
there's like a dinosaur and people like climbing
49:13
stuff. It's like, yeah, invigorating. Exactly.
49:16
Because I know that she's not doing that for
49:18
herself. She's doing it just to look outward
49:21
and to, and it has an influence on me for the
49:24
better because she's knows that I need that.
49:26
And when we will look for those things intentionally
49:29
with our spouse and our relationships to do that,
49:32
we can have influence for such good. And for
49:34
such, like, love and happiness and joy, right?
49:38
That love can be something that is so much stronger
49:40
than the fear -based. Even though fear is quick,
49:43
love long -term. And you talk about being genuine,
49:47
being sincere, right? You said people sniff it
49:50
out. It's that same thing, it's the gut feeling.
49:52
Something just fills off. And... whether they
49:57
recognize the what, they know there's something
50:01
there. And body language is super important.
50:06
And so sometimes, and some people, well, let's
50:09
go back a second, because sometimes we overanalyze
50:13
body language too. But there's people who are
50:15
autistic, and they don't keep the eye contact.
50:18
So you might get thrown off a little bit there.
50:21
But really, when it comes down to it, if you're
50:22
just genuine, sincere, And it's like, yeah, I'm
50:26
going to go above and beyond for you in the sale
50:29
of your property. And if I don't do it, now I'm
50:32
going to feel guilty. But as you do it, everyone
50:36
just feels better about it. And I feel like I've
50:39
earned it. There's people who will, and same
50:41
thing with attorneys, some people will charge
50:44
everything and do nothing. Same thing with risk
50:46
agents. Same thing with lenders. Same thing with
50:48
various aspects of the industries. when you actually
50:54
work for it it not only does it benefit your
50:57
business you can look at it that way, but you
50:59
feel good and So does everybody else and then
51:03
there's no question like oh Am I ever gonna get
51:06
sued or are they gonna hate me or are they gonna
51:07
give a bad review? I've had tons of good reviews.
51:12
I had one bad review I don't know who the guy
51:14
is so might be a competitor, you know sure, but
51:18
yeah, I think you're absolutely right when you're
51:20
genuine people feel it And I think one of the
51:25
things that we had touched on before in kind
51:28
of our preparations was this idea as well when
51:31
it comes to manipulation versus influence is,
51:35
I believe we talked about this, but listening
51:37
to respond or listening to understand. And in
51:41
these situations, the genuineness comes out in
51:44
it. If we are listening to understand. then we
51:48
are being genuine because we are wanting to hear
51:49
that person now. We want to hear their perspective.
51:51
We're trying to understand where they're coming
51:52
from. Whereas if we're simply listening to respond,
51:55
we're not genuinely listening. It's just like,
51:57
okay, get through what you're going to say because
51:58
I got to say something now, right? It's my turn
52:00
to say something. Yeah. So when you're listening
52:03
to respond, first, your eye contact is not going
52:07
to be on the person and they're going to feel
52:09
it. Oh, interesting. Because you're, remember
52:11
you're going to your creative mind, which you
52:14
start to look that direction. Because you're
52:16
like, in your head, writing what you're going
52:18
to say. Yeah. So then they feel like you're outside,
52:21
right? So the other thing is, when you're listening
52:26
to respond, is you're actually not giving them
52:30
validity, right? Because if you respond and you
52:33
say, OK, but this, this is what we call the yes,
52:37
but, right? Yeah. The yes, but kills any rapport.
52:42
So if you say yes, but I got this this and that
52:45
and if you go about it this way you say yes actually
52:50
what I'm hearing you say is you're feeling this
52:52
way and I can see why you feel that way okay
52:56
I feel good and can I share something that's
53:00
been bothering me and they're like you're asking
53:02
and they give you permission so now they're gonna
53:04
be more receptive um and so then you start saying
53:08
and this is a little bit how I'm feeling and
53:11
then and she does the same thing it's like okay
53:14
But the yes but is a killer. It's a total killer.
53:18
Listen to understand, listen not to respond.
53:23
It's a game changer. It's a game changer and
53:25
I think people will find when you engage in that
53:27
in any relationship that you have with your spouse,
53:30
a business partner, a co -worker, a client, it'll
53:35
completely change the way the interactions feel
53:38
during and it'll also change the way you feel
53:41
after. And in a really positive way, too, is
53:45
my experience. So there's the phrase, win the
53:49
battle, but lose the war. A lot of times we win
53:51
the argument, but lose the relationship. For
53:53
sure. Too many times. Yeah. Too many times we're
53:56
just really short sighted in that. And it's easy
53:58
to because your emotions get going and it's really
54:00
easy for those emotions to override those long
54:05
term like benefits that are there. Speaking on
54:08
that. This is the moment when we know emotions
54:12
are high as an interrogator. That's when we have
54:15
control And so when you lose your emotional cool
54:18
You've lost So the more you can stay calm the
54:23
less control a manipulator has It's so interesting
54:26
when you say that too. It's like When I'm having
54:29
a discussion with my wife the moment that I do
54:33
the moment my emotion gets a hold of me too much
54:37
It's over. I'm not going to get through to her.
54:38
She's not going to get through to me. It's almost
54:41
pointless for the discussion at that point in
54:43
time, because it's lost. It's toast. Oh, it's
54:46
such an interesting way to look at it. As an
54:49
integrator, that's actually kind of what you're
54:50
going for. In that case, yeah, that's my job.
54:53
In that situation, I want to get them there.
54:54
That is my job. Get them there. But then learn
54:57
the lesson from it, right? That that's what we
54:58
need to guard against when we're having a discussion
55:00
with somebody. Don't let it get to that point,
55:02
because then if you do, you're not going to have...
55:04
the positive relationship there that you're looking
55:07
for. Yeah. Okay, so we'll hit a this or that.
55:10
We'll hit a rapid fire and then we'll circle
55:12
back with some final thoughts in your three actual
55:14
takeaways. Okay. Looking forward to those. Okay,
55:16
so here is a this or that. So it's whatever you
55:19
think. You choose between the two. Might be a
55:22
controversial pick. You'll have to defend yourself.
55:24
All right, let's go. If that's the case. Glass
55:26
slipper or frying pan? Four. Whatever however,
55:32
you want to take that i'll take the frying pan
55:35
take the frying pan around you'd be repulsed.
55:36
Oh there. Um, it's better weapon That fair. Yeah,
55:40
it probably is that glass would just pull apart.
55:42
Well, I don't know maybe good for stabbing the
55:44
hill Okay, yeah, it could be i'll take the pan
55:47
tower window or or castle ballroom tower window
55:50
It's like iconic. It's really interesting when
55:53
I went and re -watched cinderella for this like
55:55
she's cast away into the tower, but really I
55:58
was like, it could be rad to be up in that tower.
56:00
I mean, you probably got to have a lot, but like
56:02
if you would be amazing, right? You get some
56:04
privacy, totally. Right. But then you got the
56:07
mother and the evil and ugly stepsisters, um,
56:11
Pascal or Gus Gus. Gus Gus. Gus Gus is fine.
56:19
And Cinderella, he's really fun. Like he's the
56:21
funny one. Um, okay. I don't know if you've experienced
56:24
either of these, but i'm just gonna see right
56:27
in military helicopter ride or tank ride Do I
56:35
get to uh, shoot anything sure, okay the tank
56:38
Okay fair. That's a great. That's a great clarification
56:41
there. I haven't been in one yet actually so
56:43
That'd be kind of fun. Um tactical gear or dress
56:48
uniform tactical gear Absolutely. That's fair.
56:51
I would have guessed that. I would have guessed
56:52
that. Day one. Early morning mission or night
56:56
mission? I like to... I'm an early bird guy,
57:02
but night mission sounds cool. Yeah, right. You
57:05
know... Yeah, night vision gobs. Yeah, like what
57:07
you kind of see. Like, yeah, totally cool. Okay,
57:09
here's a rapid fire. Favorite Disney movie? I
57:15
think my favorite Disney movie is actually Tangled.
57:17
So good. It reminds me of my wife. She's just
57:19
like Rapunzel. Oh, man. That's good. Those are
57:22
good characteristics to have. That's amazing.
57:25
Favorite Disney song. Favorite Disney song. You
57:29
know, I think this is going to be the Aladdin.
57:31
Like the one jump. Oh, one step ahead. Yes. Or
57:35
one jump ahead. Yeah, something like that. But
57:37
yeah, I love that song. It's like so catchy.
57:39
Yeah, it totally is. And then they have like
57:42
during it, there's the ladies that kind of interact.
57:45
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it's really fun. Some
57:47
funny moments of that one. Favorite Disney princess?
57:52
I had a lot of princess girlfriends growing up.
57:56
I liked Jasmine. Yeah. I think that was my go
58:01
-to. Jasmine was great. Jasmine was great. I'm
58:03
a big fan of Jasmine. Favorite Disney hero or
58:06
heroine? Favorite Disney hero? I would say probably
58:21
Hercules. He's a good one. Yeah. Has a great
58:24
character journey. He's strong but sincere. I
58:27
think I like that. Yeah, and at first he's kind
58:30
of fuddling his way around. I like it when they
58:32
show him as a kid where he can't do anything
58:34
right. You know he's all strong but nobody likes
58:36
him because he keeps messing everything up and
58:38
breaking everything, right? Actually, he really
58:40
humanizes him. Favorite Disney villain. Oh, okay.
58:47
Favorite Disney villain. it's gonna take a minute
58:56
i never really thought of that there's so there's
59:01
so many good villains out there and uh the ones
59:03
that i love to see like in the uh parade they
59:06
do uh during like the ogee boogie bash yeah disneyland
59:10
because it's like a villain's parade so it's
59:12
so fun and now they're doing the villains land
59:14
in magic kingdom in orlando won't be there for
59:16
a few years but once they do that'll be a fun
59:18
line to go to I'm gonna take a rain check on
59:22
that one. Okay, no problem. Well, the next two
59:24
I'm looking forward to. These are two that I
59:26
have. Normally I do about the same questions,
59:27
but these two were for you. Okay. This is gonna
59:29
make you think as well, okay? Okay. Disney character
59:33
that would be the best interrogator. Okay. Honestly,
59:40
Scar. Ooh, yeah. Because he's another manipulator,
59:45
right? He's totally smart. Yes, but he... He
59:50
uses his assets and uses people to then come
59:53
into the play quite a bit So I think you get
59:56
interrogator totally convinces Simba that it
59:58
was his fault. Yeah his father Yep, like master
1:00:01
manipulator to convince him to do that. We should
1:00:03
talk more about that one But yeah, that is a
1:00:05
great all of them do it. Yeah, that's a great
1:00:07
answer. Okay Disney character you would most
1:00:10
want to interrogate Most want to interrogate
1:00:23
You know, I think I would like to interrogate
1:00:26
Mother Gothel. Because I like to see people,
1:00:29
when people are that type of person, I like to
1:00:32
make them squirm a little. Yeah, and she could
1:00:34
use a little of that. She made that Rapunzel
1:00:36
squirm for a long time. She deserves it. She
1:00:39
totally deserves it. Those are good answers.
1:00:42
So as we kind of wrap up, a couple of things
1:00:45
before we get to the takeaways that I was wondering
1:00:47
about from you when it comes to interrogation
1:00:50
stuff, which is... you know what what are some
1:00:52
of the things that people could learn from what
1:00:57
you know about interrogation that could help
1:00:59
them in their lives that obviously don't violate
1:01:01
anything you're not allowed to share yeah obviously
1:01:02
uh but that like or something that somebody really
1:01:04
can take and say okay that's actually an interesting
1:01:07
skill or interesting way to look at an interesting
1:01:09
technique that can improve my relationships the
1:01:15
the thing i would probably um come to is I think
1:01:23
understanding your partner, your friends, motivators.
1:01:29
When it comes to that, then you can address and
1:01:32
say, oh, to be a good friend, they like my time.
1:01:36
Or they like presence. I'm not a present guy.
1:01:39
I could care less about them. But if someone
1:01:45
were to say, how do they have a good time with
1:01:47
me, I'd just. good quality time with them. And
1:01:49
I'd be like, that was the best thing you could
1:01:51
do for me. So once you know their motivator,
1:01:54
then, you know, work with them as giving what
1:01:59
they need and then share your own motivator with
1:02:03
your friend, your spouse. So they understand
1:02:05
that, too, because we don't always understand.
1:02:08
We don't want the same things. Even if we're
1:02:10
friends or we have a partner, we think of it
1:02:13
from the lens of, well, this is what I want.
1:02:15
So she's definitely got to want it. And then
1:02:17
she's going to think, Well, like my wife, she's
1:02:21
like, well, I like having a birthday party and
1:02:23
people over. I want this for you. I'm like, well,
1:02:26
I don't want much people for my birthday. But
1:02:29
then if she just did something simple, like rubbed
1:02:32
my feet. That's like the best for me. You make
1:02:37
me a nice little dinner. I watch a show and a
1:02:39
quiet piece. And she's like, you're so weird,
1:02:42
Josh. She loves the Gayla's. I hated the Gayla's,
1:02:44
you know, but. Yeah motivation. Okay, I understand
1:02:48
their motivation. It's a great answer and so
1:02:50
when when it comes to the topic that we've been
1:02:52
talking about and again drawing on all the Experiences
1:02:55
that you've had and the things that you've learned
1:02:57
through doing the things that you've done. What
1:03:00
are three Actionable takeaways and somebody could
1:03:03
have three things that they could put into their
1:03:06
lives take action on today or this week The one
1:03:12
of the things I would say is We talked about
1:03:15
urgency. Slow it down. You don't have to make
1:03:18
a decision right now. You can always say, thank
1:03:22
you for the information. I'm going to go and
1:03:25
research this further. And let's follow up. That
1:03:30
slows any manipulator, especially for sales.
1:03:32
I mean, you get this from door -to -door salesmen,
1:03:35
pest controls, time shares, realtors, attorneys.
1:03:38
I mean, you name it. They're trying to get you
1:03:40
to sign something ASAP, right? But if you say
1:03:44
let me review this and let me know if you have
1:03:46
any questions and if they say Well, what can
1:03:49
I do to get you to sign today say I'd be myself
1:03:51
a promise. I won't sign anything right away.
1:03:54
I'll do the research Don't you want me to do
1:03:57
the research and make sure I make a good decision
1:03:59
you put the onus back on them because they're
1:04:02
back Yes, of course. Okay. Thank you. Thank you
1:04:05
for giving me the time to now research it and
1:04:07
get back with you Now they're stuck sure So that's
1:04:12
the one thing I'd say it would be a takeaway.
1:04:14
Slow it down and delay your response or your
1:04:18
decision. What are two others? So the other one,
1:04:23
I would say again, don't do the yes but. That's
1:04:26
the takeaway. The yes but, it kills relationships.
1:04:31
And another thing to keep into the relationship
1:04:34
is what we talked about. The listen to understand.
1:04:39
Not listen to respond so good and it's honestly
1:04:42
it's it's benefited me and everything I do the
1:04:45
more I listen to them then I understand what
1:04:46
they want and they feel heard and It also helps
1:04:48
me to know what I need to do as an agent To make
1:04:53
them happy some people they're like I want something
1:04:55
quick someone's like I want you checking in with
1:04:57
me every day Someone's like don't talk to me
1:04:59
at all until it's sold, you know, but knowing
1:05:01
it But I don't talk a lot in those conversations.
1:05:04
I let them talk. OK, what else are you looking
1:05:06
for? What else are you looking for? OK, so you
1:05:07
want these things. And if I do those things,
1:05:10
then you will be satisfied with what I provide
1:05:12
for you. Absolutely. There you go. Well, Josh,
1:05:22
thank you so much for being on this episode with
1:05:25
us. I really enjoyed learning from you, learning
1:05:27
from a master interrogator on some of the things
1:05:30
to avoid, some of the things to look out for
1:05:32
in our own relationships and ways we can improve.
1:05:34
On yes land and not yes but. That's right. That's
1:05:37
right. That's exactly right. So appreciate you,
1:05:40
brother. All right. Thanks, man. As you lead
1:05:43
this conversation, remember that yes, the past
1:05:46
can hurt and you can either run from it or you
1:05:49
can learn from it. So here's to learning and
1:05:52
finding joy in the journey. See you real soon.