Latest / Math Therapy / How to get fired up about teaching (even if the system has crushed your spirit) w/ Chase Orton

Transcript

How to get fired up about teaching (even if the system has crushed your spirit) w/ Chase Orton · Math Therapy

• 0:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Guys, oh my God, I cannot believe I'm about to say this, but welcome to our first ever live off the floor Math Therapy podcast episode.
• 0:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's right, I have manifested my becoming a less creepy Dr.
• 0:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Phil and a half as cool Oprah dreams by low-key turning this podcast into a talk show.
• 0:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: So last week, I presented at Leander ISD's annual Math Joy Conference, and I turned one of my sessions into an interview in front of a live studio audience, and it was the coolest thing ever.
• 0:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, did I almost blow up my laptop attempting to get sound directly from the speaker into my MacBook?
• 0:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 0:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did I then almost have a mild panic attack?
• 0:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Also yes.
• 0:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did I then get the incredible audience to lend me three of their phones so I could record voice memos from different angles in an attempt to get audio that David wouldn't kill me over?
• 0:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes, yes, and yes.
• 0:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: And did it work?
• 0:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Heck yes, it did.
• 0:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: The thing is, I'm kind of glad this interview was live because it was low-key jaw-dropping at points, and it was kind of cool to see, like, listeners' jaws drop in real time Now, why was it jaw-dropping, you ask?
• 1:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, because I interviewed the one and only Chase Orton, author of The Imperfect and Unfinished Math Teacher, king disruptor of the math ed world.
• 1:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you've ever felt like you're so bound by curriculum companies, standardized testing, and systemic obstacles that you're burning out and burning up by the second, this episode is for you.
• 1:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: In this totally raw and unfiltered interview, Chase does not hold back on his belief that the past 40 years of top-down PD efforts in math have rarely supplied teachers with what they need to equitably grow their practice, and he shares the one thing he believes we all need to do right now to truly flourish in this profession.
• 1:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: he also does not hold back on sharing his views on how a particular curriculum company is completely destroying education.
• 1:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: You'll see.
• 1:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: The tea is hot.
• 1:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: So buckle up and welcome to the first ever Math Therapy Live talk show.
• 2:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm so happy you're here.
• 2:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, this is actually very exciting,'cause we have...
• 2:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are you nervous?
• 2:08
  Chase Orton: No, I'm focused.
• 2:09
  Chase Orton: I am- grounding myself, pretending that there aren't 55 eyes out there, 56 eyes, probably, an even number- looking at me, and I'm just...
• 2:19
  Chase Orton: Yeah, I'm ready.
• 2:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 2:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I am very excited.
• 2:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: So this has been a dream of mine forever.
• 2:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you guys don't know, I have a podcast called Ma- hi, guys.
• 2:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, that's gonna be in the recording.
• 2:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is gonna sound so real.
• 2:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm wearing too many jingly things.
• 2:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, So I have a podcast called Math Therapy.
• 2:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it is my dream to have a Netflix show.
• 2:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: This isn't about me.
• 2:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is gonna be about Chase.
• 2:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: but the point is, it's always been my dream to have a Netflix show, and I wanna have, like, a style of a show where we have these real conversations.
• 2:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: And as Peter Liljedahl always says,"The smartest person in the room is the room," right?
• 2:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: There are so many people who have s- who know so many things.
• 2:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I thought it'd be really cool to do, like, a fireside chat.
• 2:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: We are recording this.
• 3:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: We don't know if it's gonna work, but maybe it's gonna be a podcast, and you guys are gonna be our first live audience ever.
• 3:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Woo.
• 3:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, okay, so we're gonna chat.
• 3:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm gonna ask you some questions, and I'm gonna save 10 minutes for Q&A,'cause I think that would be cool, too, and I feel like that's what professional people do.
• 3:18
  Chase Orton: Great.
• 3:18
  Chase Orton: Can I add on to your Netflix idea?
• 3:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Please do.
• 3:20
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 3:20
  Chase Orton: I want to have a segment on that of math class in America where remember John Oliver back when he was on the- Oh, yeah John Stewart Show, right, and he was a side piece?
• 3:30
  Chase Orton: And I would just like to go travel around rural America and teach math class with people and get their story and hear about their experiences.
• 3:41
  Chase Orton: So I've driven all over this country, and I've been to really small towns, and I drive through and I'm like,"Man, that was just a school.
• 3:47
  Chase Orton: Somebody is teaching math there every day.
• 3:49
  Chase Orton: How are they doing?
• 3:50
  Chase Orton: Who are they?
• 3:51
  Chase Orton: What's their story?" I don't know if it'll be a full Netflix show, but if you can get the Netflix show and I could just ride your coattails- I love- That'd be great.
• 3:59
  Chase Orton: That'd be great.
• 3:59
  Chase Orton: That'd be great
• 4:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: I do love this, and you know what?
• 4:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: I will say, I actually had a meeting with Netflix in 2020.
• 4:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I did.
• 4:06
  Chase Orton: Oh, okay.
• 4:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I did.
• 4:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I did.
• 4:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually had a meeting with them, and I pitched them Math Therapy, but it was more of, like, the format of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, if you guys have seen that.
• 4:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like somebody shows up to someone's house and gives them a makeover with their math identity.
• 4:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
• 4:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
• 4:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: They, they literally said to me,"If the word math is in the title, no one will watch it."
• 4:23
  Audience: Oh.
• 4:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my God, that was like a studio audience noise right there.
• 4:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways, my point is, I like this.
• 4:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I really like this idea, and guys, look at how many of us are in here.
• 4:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think we can manifest this, and it starts today.
• 4:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's starting right now with Chase Orton.
• 4:38
  Chase Orton: Sure.
• 4:39
  Chase Orton: I love it.
• 4:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Welcome to the podcast.
• 4:40
  Chase Orton: Thanks for having me.
• 4:42
  Chase Orton: It's been a while.
• 4:42
  Chase Orton: I'm glad I'm here.
• 4:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'd like to start where things began today when we ran into each other here, probably meeting for only the second or third time, and I said to Chase,"I think we are polar opposites." And Chase said,"I disagree with that." I'd like you to tell the audience why you disagreed with that, because I actually think it ties into your philosophy as an educator.
• 5:06
  Chase Orton: Sure.
• 5:07
  Chase Orton: Okay.
• 5:07
  Chase Orton: Uh, I think there are, as teachers, there are people that, teachers that are willing to, uh, mess around and find out, right?
• 5:16
  Chase Orton: Like, to try out a lesson, to risk, to fail, to flop first period, revise the second period, and we're pretty comfortable with uncertainty and public failure in front of our students.
• 5:28
  Chase Orton: And perhaps sometimes we don't always think things through.
• 5:32
  Chase Orton: Maybe we jump, dri- dive in before really seeing if there's water in the pool.
• 5:36
  Chase Orton: Um, and I think maybe there are some teachers that are really disciplined and super structured- and super ordered, and they've got all the pedagogic moves down, and they can choreograph 30 squirrely kids into something that resembles cohesive, like, thinking and talking and, and, um, uh, so I think that there are two types of those teachers, and I think we're both kind of the chaos-driven teachers of just- Let's, we got, I, I don't know what's gonna happen, but we can talk about it forever, or we could just teach first period and have an experience.
• 6:07
  Chase Orton: I see that.
• 6:07
  Chase Orton: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:07
  Chase Orton: So-
• 6:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Chaos-driven teachers.
• 6:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually love that term, and I'm curious who here would relate to that.
• 6:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Who here feels like a chaos-driven teacher?
• 6:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Some of us.
• 6:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And who is like,"That's my worst nightmare"?
• 6:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Actually.
• 6:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we see who all the Virgos are now.
• 6:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, that's very clear.
• 6:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And
• 6:23
  Chase Orton: I, I think it's our relationship with ambiguity.
• 6:27
  Chase Orton: And so much about teaching is, like, we just don't know.
• 6:29
  Chase Orton: Like, it's, it's such a hard job.
• 6:31
  Chase Orton: Um, um, and the judgment calls we have to make.
• 6:34
  Chase Orton: But it requires, I think, a lot of comfort in ambiguity.
• 6:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'd like to actually know, like, we're here at a forum for math joy, and this is a podcast about math anxiety and trauma that, not just on the side of students, but teachers as well.
• 6:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm curious how somebody's comfort or discomfort with ambiguity- might actually come to play and intersect with an anxiety they have around math.
• 7:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do you think there's a relationship between the two?
• 7:04
  Chase Orton: I think that ambiguity is not as celebrated and encouraged in a math classroom.
• 7:10
  Chase Orton: Like, we gotta get to the right answer, and it's either, the final answer is either right or wrong, and we don't let that uncertainty hang enough.
• 7:19
  Chase Orton: I think, um, Dan Meyer talks about we're always in a rush to reach resolution rather than hanging with- with a unsolved problem or unresolved problem by the end of class and, and picking it up moving forward.
• 7:33
  Chase Orton: So, um, yeah, I think for some students or learners in a classroom, if they don't immediately know the answer, they might think that they're bad at math.
• 7:45
  Chase Orton: And then therefore, if they are, are feeling ambiguity, they might start to think they're not a math person, even though I think that's where it's that delicious ambiguity that math joy kind of exists.
• 7:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really love that, and I can imagine for many educators who maybe don't feel so great at math or feel anxious around math- that the more that ambiguity settles, you're like,"Oh my God, I can't get to the answer," like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and all of a sudden that actually puts us into a trauma response.
• 8:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, all of a sudden that can lead to freeze.
• 8:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 8:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because often the ambiguity when you're kind of like,"I don't know how to do something," if it's not celebrated, that becomes a scary feeling, and then all of a sudden we get triggered, and so we shut down.
• 8:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do you move by, past that?
• 8:30
  Chase Orton: Uh, I hear you talking and I'm always thinking about the teachers and their practice, right, and their ambiguity, and, and not just presenting a problem that may not, we may not get an answer to today.
• 8:42
  Chase Orton: For me, and the title of this workshop is about how do we fall in love with our job again- as teachers, right?
• 8:48
  Chase Orton: And, and I think for us, we've been told, I guess, this myth that as teachers, we need to have all the answers- Yeah and be the answer key, and we're not.
• 8:57
  Chase Orton: Like, it, it, it takes a lot of courage to lean into that discomfort.
• 9:05
  Chase Orton: Lean into, not just the ambiguity and the mathematics, but the ambiguity of how do I design a single learning experience for 28 kids that are all in different places?
• 9:14
  Chase Orton: And I've been in some amazing classrooms this year, right?
• 9:17
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 9:17
  Chase Orton: Of wildly different students, right?
• 9:20
  Chase Orton: And last year at Danielson, right, like, and just period to period and the vibe in the room, as a teacher, I, I think for us is it's about embracing that ambiguity.
• 9:31
  Chase Orton: And so I think m- maybe I'm with the therapy for teachers, you know, like ch- Yeah what is it?
• 9:36
  Chase Orton: Soup, uh, Chicken Noodle Soup for the Teaching Soul, right?
• 9:40
  Chase Orton: Like I-
• 9:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: That is a real throwback.
• 9:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, it is, it is.
• 9:42
  Chase Orton: That was the whole thing, right?
• 9:44
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 9:44
  Chase Orton: Um, and, and so I think you're really looking at the identity and agency of adults and young people- Yeah in the math classroom.
• 9:50
  Chase Orton: And, I am looking at teachers who are burnt out dealing with the, the BS of standardized testing and pacing plans and yuck, that stuff.
• 10:01
  Chase Orton: And so how do we re- maintain our resilience and our love for teaching?
• 10:07
  Chase Orton: Um, and I, I, I believe that a lot of us are really different.
• 10:10
  Chase Orton: Some of us, like me, are comfortable with ambiguity.
• 10:12
  Chase Orton: Some other people need to have more order and structure, and we both learn from each other by watching lessons, I, I, I think from Danielson, right?
• 10:21
  Chase Orton: That you are There was some really good learning out of there in ways that I needed more structure and more thinking things through, and learning to grow in that way, that structure is important.
• 10:31
  Chase Orton: Having a vision and a plan is really important.
• 10:34
  Chase Orton: And it's not just about, like, cool task, let's dive in and see what happens.
• 10:38
  Chase Orton: And by third period, it's gonna be pretty good, right?
• 10:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I mean, what I'm thinking too is, fine, we have this spectrum of ambiguity versus, like, organization or, like, chaos versus not, but let's go back to this idea of burnout because, like just looking around the room, there was a l- a lot of folks nodding and being like,"Yeah, we feel pretty burnt out." And I wonder if when we have this set outcome and this thing we're like, you know, what did Jenny Bay Williams just say?
• 11:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Nobody likes to be should on, right?
• 11:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: When we have this thing that we should and we're supposed to be doing, is it the striving for that that leads to burnout?
• 11:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just like when a student has a math problem with a solution they're supposed to be getting, feeling like they're not getting there, like feeling like you're not getting the outcome, is that the catalyst for burnout?
• 11:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: And is there a way- that if we let go of the outcome-
• 11:28
  Chase Orton: Sure
• 11:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: like what Do you guys feel- Sure like that is a catalyst for burnout, being like,"I'm not getting to where I'm supposed to be"?
• 11:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're all going,"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." Yeah, uh- Okay, just for the recording.
• 11:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Make sure.
• 11:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: I,
• 11:41
  Chase Orton: I mean, I, I've been there as a teacher where you're like,"All right, I've got this task.
• 11:44
  Chase Orton: It's gonna go like this." And then the kids just wanna take it a different direction.
• 11:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 11:49
  Chase Orton: And I, I don't know if we...
• 11:50
  Chase Orton: Have we been there as, as a teacher?
• 11:52
  Chase Orton: Like, you're like,"Do I just try to bring the herd back to where I want them to go, or do I just kinda be like,'All right, herd, where are we going?'" And follow their curiosity.
• 12:02
  Chase Orton: And I, I think that there was, this makes me a bad teacher based on today's norms, but I had to let go of the expectations that I wanted students to get and honor that they were gonna make their own meaning.
• 12:15
  Chase Orton: And sometimes that meaning was more important, more brilliant, more inspiring for me than reaching my intended learning target that could probably wait till tomorrow.
• 12:24
  Chase Orton: And so I think, for me as a teacher, it was, like, really just trying to create an opportunity to, to get kids curious and interested, but I had to let go of my vision of what success looked like.
• 12:36
  Chase Orton: Because then I get mad, and then we are...
• 12:38
  Chase Orton: I, I don't know about you, but I have an inner child as a teacher that gets kind of mad and grumpy, and then two or three days of kids getting under my skin, and now I'm, like, short-tempered with students.
• 12:49
  Chase Orton: I don't know if you ever get short-tempered- with your students, but-
• 12:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're all saying,"No, me, never, Chase."
• 12:53
  Chase Orton: Um, you know, but they're...
• 12:55
  Chase Orton: And I talk about this in my book.
• 12:57
  Chase Orton: Like, there were times when I would not scream, but I would have my big, big voice of like-"Why am I the hardest person working in the room right now?
• 13:05
  Chase Orton: Where are you?
• 13:06
  Chase Orton: Why aren't you here?" And it's easy to find myself blaming kids, and that's not nourishing my passion, right?
• 13:13
  Chase Orton: That might be causing math trauma for them.
• 13:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: That just also looked like you, your blood pressure just shot up- Oh, yeah even in that reenactment.
• 13:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's so...
• 13:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, like, truly, like, right?
• 13:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because part of what we don't talk about with burnout is our nervous system.
• 13:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 13:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And how, like, literally being in the state of escalation, and, like, us, ourse- Are you okay?
• 13:31
  Chase Orton: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:31
  Chase Orton: No, I'm- Yes.
• 13:34
  Chase Orton: I was just thinking back to that time I was in a...
• 13:35
  Chase Orton: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:36
  Chase Orton: Yeah, I get emotional.
• 13:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 13:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you're just like, oh my God, you're constantly on edge.
• 13:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I wanna...
• 13:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really like this idea of...
• 13:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because, you know, there's so much in basically every single text, whether you're a spiritual person or not, or what- whatever your brand of spirituality is, even if it's nothing, and even it's just hard science, that actually what leads to suffering the most is resistance.
• 13:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 13:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's resisting the flow.
• 14:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: So when we're like,"It's cold outside," and you're like,"I wish it was hot," like, that's causing way more s- more suffering than you just being like,"It's cold and it sucks," right?
• 14:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's just, it's that inner resistance.
• 14:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: And for our nervous systems as well, it's resistance.
• 14:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's being like,"I don't want things to be this way," as opposed to being like acceptance, right?
• 14:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have resistance versus acceptance.
• 14:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you're talking about that, you know, like, to go from where we started here, which was ambiguity, you're kinda going from when we accept that we don't know the answer, when we accept that the lesson is taking this direction, and we stop resisting it, not only does learning happen, but we physically, emotionally, cognitively feel better, right?
• 14:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause we're no longer fighting.
• 14:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're no longer fighting.
• 14:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: But my, my question always is, and I would really like for you to talk us through this, as this is your specialty- Okay is talk to the teacher in the room who's like,"I love that.
• 14:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wanna be de-escalated.
• 14:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wanna be chill vibes.
• 14:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: I want to follow the chaos, but I also need to meet these targets.
• 14:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: I also need them to learn this thing.
• 15:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: What...
• 15:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do we do it?"
• 15:02
  Chase Orton: Uh, I don't want anybody in the room to get fired.
• 15:06
  Chase Orton: Um- Sure.
• 15:08
  Chase Orton: Good start.
• 15:09
  Chase Orton: But sometimes to be, to be the teacher you need, your students need you to be means that maybe you're a non-cooperative employee.
• 15:17
  Chase Orton: Um, and I know that that is a little bit risky to say, but I think that there are a lot of things that we are asked to do as teachers that aren't about good teaching and aren't necessarily good for us or our students.
• 15:31
  Chase Orton: And the resistance, to me, becomes how can I be compliant to get leadership off my back in a way that minimizes my effort so I can create the time- to create classrooms where kids wanna be there.
• 15:46
  Chase Orton: Um, and there were times that I just was a non-compliant employee.
• 15:52
  Chase Orton: I'm like,"Sorry, principal, I'm just not gonna do that." And it puts me at odds.
• 15:57
  Chase Orton: Like, I, again, I don't want any of you to get fired.
• 15:59
  Chase Orton: Like, you have mortgages and kids and families, and I live out of a box truck and don't have kids.
• 16:04
  Chase Orton: And so there's-
• 16:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: A lot to unpack here.
• 16:06
  Chase Orton: There's a lot to unpack.
• 16:08
  Chase Orton: Um, but I, I, I, I, I know that-
• 16:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I feel you.
• 16:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is- Yeah like, I mean, this is our similarity probably, where we're like, the red tape makes us both cray cray.
• 16:19
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 16:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 16:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 16:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I get it.
• 16:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, but realistically- Sure I feel being a non-compliant employee might be...
• 16:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there a middle ground?
• 16:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 16:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because, because I hear what you're saying, and also, I think there probably is, right?
• 16:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: There are...
• 16:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause I think we have to hold two truths, which is we want kids to enjoy math.
• 16:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: We want to follow the flow.
• 16:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: We want to have room for these learning experiences.
• 16:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: We don't wanna be so rigid, but we do...
• 16:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: There are, like, they need to, like, learn certain things, for example.
• 16:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because you know what?
• 16:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Compliant or not, we don't wanna send them to the next grade teacher not knowing the things that they're supposed to know.
• 16:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's not just, we don't wanna do that as peoples.
• 16:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then is there a way to do both?
• 16:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, is there a way to follow the flow of the whatever your lesson is going to and somehow bring them back?
• 17:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what's the vibe?
• 17:02
  Chase Orton: The inclusive response is to try to say that maybe there's a middle way, and I think everybody in this room is figuring that out.
• 17:10
  Chase Orton: I want to be a little bit more subversive and just say no.
• 17:14
  Chase Orton: Like, I, I...
• 17:16
  Chase Orton: you need to learn this for next year's math class is not a valid argument that is gonna win students over.
• 17:24
  Chase Orton: And I, I invite us to push back on that and to really think about, is, is it worth spending eight weeks in Algebra 1 doing quadratic- is that a what well you, well wor- a worthwhile use of our time as, as adults and, and what we're asking students to think about but you gotta teach it, but I'm also wondering, like, is it worth it?
• 17:49
  Chase Orton: And- what can be the other things that don't cause math trauma that are more interesting and more invigorating for us to teach as teachers?
• 17:58
  Chase Orton: And I know that I'm a little bit on the fringe, on the outsider of this.
• 18:02
  Chase Orton: Um, and I'm blessed for the work that I have to be able to work with amazing teachers in an amazing system like Leander, and I've been this is my wrapping up 20 days here- Yeah and I've got eight more next year.
• 18:15
  Chase Orton: Bring me to your site.
• 18:16
  Chase Orton: I hope we get to keep teaching together.
• 18:18
  Chase Orton: And it's been, like, familiar faces are a precious thing, and so I'm deeply grateful for the familiar faces that I see in this room from my workshops, but also from teaching together.
• 18:28
  Chase Orton: and I would like to keep that going, and I, I enjoy the community, but I also get to be a critic.
• 18:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, I think that's maybe the, the role.
• 18:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, maybe I'm asking even the wrong question because that's the whole thing is you, and probably me too, hence why I don't teach in a classroom, would be like,"I can't, I- I don't wanna say I can't, but I'm like, you're kind of like,"Well, I don't want to." Like, that's my- Yeah.
• 18:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: We all have our lines, right, of things where we're like, where we, this is where we're willing to cross the line, this is where we're not.
• 18:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that is why we have amazing teachers that are not us actually teaching math, right?
• 19:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because you, they're, they're able to be like,"Okay, I can actually see the middle path," and maybe that's it.
• 19:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think sometimes, too, for things to change, you do hear something polarizing, like, coming from you, where you're like,"Well, here's what I would do.
• 19:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I would every single day let the lesson take me wherever it wanted to go." And maybe someone's listening and is like,"Cool.
• 19:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that's too much for me.""But maybe I could do that, like, 5% of the time." Sure.
• 19:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: "And maybe that would move the dial."
• 19:30
  Audience: Yeah.
• 19:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I think it's kind of unreasonable that every single person just throw it all to the wind, given the system that, like, there is a system
• 19:38
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 19:38
  Chase Orton: Uh, I don't think I, I And I'm coming at this from a high school perspective.
• 19:42
  Chase Orton: Sure.
• 19:43
  Chase Orton: But, like, there's so much crap in the high school standards- Yeah that is just, it's like we're guaranteeing the kids are leaving high school with a negative opinion about math.
• 19:54
  Chase Orton: In part because the content that we're forced to teach.
• 19:56
  Chase Orton: And I, I would invite teachers to push back on that, but now we need to substitute it with mathematic tasks that are worth thinking about, that are interesting.
• 20:05
  Chase Orton: And this is where I like Peter's non-curricular tasks, right?
• 20:07
  Chase Orton: Interesting puzzles and problems that, that promote sense-making and perseverance and, and, but they're not neatly aligned to the standards.
• 20:15
  Chase Orton: They're aligned to the standards for mathematical practice or your TEKs.
• 20:21
  Chase Orton: What do you call them here?
• 20:22
  Chase Orton: TEKs.
• 20:22
  Chase Orton: TEKs, right.
• 20:23
  Chase Orton: But not the content TEKs.
• 20:25
  Chase Orton: The process.
• 20:25
  Chase Orton: The pro- The process proc- process.
• 20:26
  Chase Orton: That's what you call them?
• 20:27
  Chase Orton: Okay.
• 20:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Give me an ex- Okay I feel like an outsider.
• 20:29
  Chase Orton: Uh- I literally am, but like- I-
• 20:31
  Audience: It's the how.
• 20:32
  Chase Orton: It's the Right.
• 20:32
  Chase Orton: So in-
• 20:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Give me one example.
• 20:34
  Chase Orton: Well, in the, the Common Core, I don't know if Big Brother heard me say that phrase here on The Great State of Texas.
• 20:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: It is a podcast.
• 20:40
  Chase Orton: But I would imagine that in the process standards, there is something about perseverance, making sense of problems and persevering and solving.
• 20:48
  Chase Orton: That we will, uh, critique argument, construct arguments, and critique the reasoning of others.
• 20:52
  Chase Orton: We will pay attention to precision, and value that.
• 20:56
  Chase Orton: We'll look for structure and how can we use repeated reasoning.
• 20:59
  Chase Orton: And it doesn't matter if you're a Common Core state or not, every state, Florida's got the seven best.
• 21:04
  Chase Orton: Um, you've got your TEKs process standards.
• 21:07
  Chase Orton: Common Core has their standards for mathematical practice.
• 21:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's like a version of it everywhere.
• 21:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: And the- I get it
• 21:11
  Chase Orton: it is your how, and it's 50% of what we do, right?
• 21:15
  Chase Orton: And, and, but all we s- talk about is our content and test scores and exit tickets and data, data, data that-
• 21:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're stressing people out.
• 21:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can see people going into a- Ah state right now.
• 21:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 21:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like- I feel we need to pause and do some breathing for you.
• 21:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I,
• 21:31
  Chase Orton: I, I mean, I, I really, I'm worried about our profession.
• 21:36
  Chase Orton: I only made it 12 years as a teacher.
• 21:38
  Chase Orton: Uh, we can get down to the road why I chose to leave the classroom.
• 21:41
  Chase Orton: Yes.
• 21:42
  Chase Orton: Um- We will.
• 21:43
  Chase Orton: Okay.
• 21:44
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 21:44
  Chase Orton: Thank you.
• 21:44
  Chase Orton: Maybe, maybe interview two.
• 21:45
  Chase Orton: Um, we'll see.
• 21:46
  Chase Orton: But I will say that I didn't know how to be the teacher I wanted to be without burning my candle at both ends.
• 21:52
  Chase Orton: And so I didn't know how- To do it, and, and I never went into math teaching because I loved math.
• 22:02
  Chase Orton: I liked school and the problem of building community and motivating people to be curious and empower each other.
• 22:09
  Chase Orton: I just was okay at high school math, and then that was some job s- security.
• 22:13
  Chase Orton: Like, it was a lot easier to get a math teaching position than an English teaching position, which is what my degree was in.
• 22:19
  Chase Orton: and I just It wasn't about the math.
• 22:21
  Chase Orton: It was about the problem of how do I get people to feel empowered and support- each other.
• 22:27
  Chase Orton: And, so for me, I come at it at a very different angle.
• 22:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 22:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Great math- Um- Great math pun, though, that you just threw in there.
• 22:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know.
• 22:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, sure.
• 22:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mr.
• 22:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: English.
• 22:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 22:35
  Chase Orton: It was totally, totally accidental.
• 22:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hold on.
• 22:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: I gotta say a couple things.
• 22:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 22:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause I actually think this is so touching.
• 22:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's a few things you said that I'm like,"Let's not actually gloss over these things." First of all, you two Well, y- I feel Although our whole podcast is us discovering how not that different we are, because I was telling the last group I just did a talk with, I mean, for me, I I'm a math teacher because math is what gave me my wings to realize what I was capable of, because I failed it so much and was told I couldn't do it.
• 23:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
• 23:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: And when I busted through it, I was like,"Wow, this is a beautiful gateway." I do love math.
• 23:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 23:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I became a math teacher to show kids exactly what you're talking about, is I wanted to show them empowerment- through beating the odds, through problem-solving, through discovering what's possible.
• 23:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I wanna go back a step further to what you just said about the TEKS or the practices or non-curricular.
• 23:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause I actually think you're not giving yourself enough credit, you're saying, you know, the non-curricular tasks and I just didn't know how to do it, and like this and that, and like whatever, screw the curriculum.
• 23:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: You didn't say...
• 23:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: These are not your words.
• 23:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: But- what I, I actually call these, what you guys are calling TEKS, and practices, and standards, I call math adjacent practices.
• 23:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which is any sort of skill that is also useful in math class, problem-solving, perseverance, like grit, productive struggle, um, perspective, creativity, any of those skills.
• 23:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I actually think that when we teach those skills in a math class, we are...
• 23:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know when people are like,"But you need math for real life." I'm always like,"You need those skills for real life." Yeah.
• 24:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 24:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, those are the skills.
• 24:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the thing is, when you teach a non-curricular task, or something non-curricular, or you let your lesson go a bit off the rails, but you are still learning all of those things and teaching all of those k- things.
• 24:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Those are a p- not only applicable when it comes to something more curricular or content driven.
• 24:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: So now they take, like,"Oh, I took a risk.
• 24:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, I thought creatively.
• 24:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, I problem solved, and now we're learning quadrat- we're literally learning the quadratic algorithm, and I can use those, so it is useful." I actually think it does something more, which I think it shows kids there are these moments of joy.
• 24:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: There are moments of joy in this classroom and I belong here.
• 24:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, when I have to do something that's boring, I am more likely to feel like I can do it- and that I want to do it.
• 24:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I say this because think about going to the gym.
• 24:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or do you work out?
• 24:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry, that's personal.
• 24:53
  Chase Orton: No,
• 24:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: no.
• 24:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you like...
• 24:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: You don't know?
• 24:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or like, like, okay, fine, you drive around, right, in your van?
• 25:02
  Chase Orton: Sure, sure.
• 25:03
  Chase Orton: Do you...
• 25:03
  Chase Orton: Okay, right?
• 25:03
  Chase Orton: It's a truck, but yes.
• 25:05
  Chase Orton: Sorry, I'm so sorry.
• 25:06
  Chase Orton: It is a truck.
• 25:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry.
• 25:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, yeah, I, I- Okay, you, but you like to drive, right?
• 25:09
  Chase Orton: I'm
• 25:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: an adult, so.
• 25:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: You like to drive.
• 25:10
  Chase Orton: I
• 25:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: do like road trips, yes.
• 25:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: But aren't there parts on road trips that suck?
• 25:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like a really boring-
• 25:14
  Chase Orton: Yeah, Kansas is pretty bad.
• 25:19
  Chase Orton: West Texas is, you know, like-
• 25:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't got the joke.
• 25:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's in Kansas?
• 25:22
  Chase Orton: Nothing.
• 25:23
  Chase Orton: Oh.
• 25:25
  Chase Orton: Okay.
• 25:25
  Chase Orton: It's the same thing.
• 25:26
  Chase Orton: Okay.
• 25:26
  Chase Orton: It's like whenever you find yourself near Lubbock, Texas, like you're just- I mean, no offense to Lubbock.
• 25:31
  Chase Orton: It's just- But it's, it's...
• 25:32
  Chase Orton: West Texas is, is also-
• 25:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: A bit bland.
• 25:35
  Chase Orton: Bit bland.
• 25:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so guys, though, but stay with my analogy here.
• 25:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: If- Yeah you like dr-...
• 25:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's lots of great parts about a road trip, and there's a lot of parts that kinda suck.
• 25:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: But it makes that Kansas or whatever you guys are saying it makes Kansas more bearal- bearable because you're like,"I'm gonna get through Kansas.
• 25:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've gotta get there, to get from point A to point B, and then I'll be in..." I do not know the geography of this country.
• 25:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: "Then I'll be in this cooler place where there's stuff to look at." I see what's happening in math class when you do what you're suggesting the same way.
• 26:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, sometimes the lesson gets off the rails.
• 26:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sometimes we do something non-curricular and you discover this cool thing about yourself or about math.
• 26:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, when you have to do the thing that's boring, you're more likely to be like,"All right, fine.
• 26:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is just a part of the thing." But the overall thing doesn't suck.
• 26:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, I think I brought it home on that metaphor.
• 26:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: What are we thinking?
• 26:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 26:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, that took a lot.
• 26:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: So- Thank you.
• 26:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you.
• 26:24
  Chase Orton: So you're saying, like, to build some joy to, to, to carry us through the dry times of math class.
• 26:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 26:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I, and- Sure what I'm saying is you...
• 26:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, be- because the way you're talking about it is you're like,"Whatever, that's the only way I can do it," is like,"I be non-compliant.
• 26:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know how to find the middle way." But I think this is the middle way, is to be like, like Brian Buchalter, I remember hearing him speak once, and he says,"If you can't move a mountain, move a stone." Yes.
• 26:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you can't change the entire system, move a stone.
• 26:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: And every time you create these moments of joy, like you're suggesting, you're moving a stone, and it makes a difference.
• 26:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: And w- fine, maybe we didn't redo the whole system.
• 26:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: We didn't scrap the whole, all the content.
• 26:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 26:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, like, you're doing something.
• 27:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think it, I Like, yes, I'm talking about the student, but I think for you as a teacher, you also are like,"All right, some days I can just have fun and do whatever.
• 27:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Some days I've got to drive through Kansas."
• 27:12
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 27:12
  Chase Orton: I, I, I don't know how many different states we can offend people from right now.
• 27:18
  Chase Orton: So I need, I need to owe the citizens of Lubbock, Texas, and also Kansas, Nebraska, and um- those states an apology, but, uh, forgive me.
• 27:27
  Chase Orton: Um-
• 27:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, like, you know what I mean.
• 27:29
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 27:30
  Chase Orton: Yes, and I, I-
• 27:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or no, you don't agree
• 27:34
  Chase Orton: I invite us to think about the times in our calendar that we really can control.
• 27:38
  Chase Orton: My favorite time is after standardized testing, right?
• 27:42
  Chase Orton: Okay, great.
• 27:42
  Chase Orton: So I've got...
• 27:43
  Chase Orton: And we did it early in my school, like end of April, and so I've got May, I've got six weeks.
• 27:48
  Chase Orton: I'm gonna make that the juiciest, wonderful math experience.
• 27:52
  Chase Orton: I'm going to pull out my best tasks.
• 27:55
  Chase Orton: I've got seniors who are so damaged with their math therapy that this is my last chance that I can change their inflection.
• 28:02
  Chase Orton: And I wanna teach what I wanna teach.
• 28:05
  Chase Orton: I wanna teach about different ways that we can count votes, and voting systems, and the mathematics of democracy, and thinking about that richness.
• 28:12
  Chase Orton: And how do we organize, like thinking about Euler paths and Euler circuits and graph theory, and stuff that removes algebra as the obstacle, and we're in these discrete mathematics kind of topics.
• 28:24
  Chase Orton: Uh, so I invite, like for us as teachers, we've got, you know, the pacing plan.
• 28:28
  Chase Orton: I know you all.
• 28:29
  Chase Orton: You know exactly what you're teaching on April 17th next year.
• 28:31
  Chase Orton: 10 years.
• 28:32
  Chase Orton: Right?
• 28:32
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 28:33
  Chase Orton: It is.
• 28:33
  Chase Orton: Really?
• 28:33
  Chase Orton: And you're always on it.
• 28:35
  Chase Orton: Like, you, and I need to celebrate you, but I'm also a little alarmed because you're so on accurate.
• 28:44
  Chase Orton: You're so accurate Like, and I'm like, does, does, does it ever not go according to plan?
• 28:50
  Chase Orton: And like maybe get a little bit behind.
• 28:51
  Chase Orton: But, um-
• 28:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: You all- He has no earth in his top three in his birth chart, just so you know.
• 28:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ah.
• 28:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's all water and fire signs.
• 28:58
  Chase Orton: We're going down.
• 28:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is, this is explaining a lot, I think.
• 29:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Zero earth elements.
• 29:03
  Chase Orton: Ungrounded.
• 29:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, keep going though.
• 29:05
  Chase Orton: Um, and so I just invite us to think about the times in our schedule, and to think about our, our legacy as teachers.
• 29:11
  Chase Orton: We, we are not gonna be remembered for our test scores.
• 29:14
  Chase Orton: We are not gonna be remembered like,"I'm so glad that I had Mrs.
• 29:18
  Chase Orton: So-and-so, and she prepared me for factoring fourth degree polynomials by teaching me how to factor second degree polynomials.
• 29:27
  Chase Orton: And I'm really grateful for the experience." And, uh, you know, I, I...
• 29:30
  Chase Orton: we remembered about, this is part of your book, like unfortunately we're remembered for the need for math therapy, right?
• 29:37
  Chase Orton: And the trauma we have caused.
• 29:38
  Chase Orton: And I, I really want us to get grounded in, in our purpose as, as teachers and why we do this work.
• 29:45
  Chase Orton: And, and, um, I begin with that prompt that's over there on the board.
• 29:49
  Chase Orton: If you've been to my worksheets, worksheets.
• 29:51
  Chase Orton: Workshops.
• 29:53
  Chase Orton: Uh, it is,"It's a great day of teaching when I see, hear, or feel my students blank in math class." And so I ask teachers that all the time.
• 30:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Should we do it right now?
• 30:01
  Chase Orton: Uh, well, w- we- Now.
• 30:04
  Chase Orton: I, sure.
• 30:04
  Chase Orton: I don't know.
• 30:05
  Chase Orton: It's your show.
• 30:06
  Chase Orton: It's your show.
• 30:06
  Chase Orton: We got 27 minutes.
• 30:08
  Chase Orton: I don't know how the audience is doing.
• 30:09
  Chase Orton: My butt's getting a little numb and-
• 30:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 30:12
  Chase Orton: Uh, so I don't know how they're doing out there.
• 30:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're such a high maintenance guest.
• 30:16
  Chase Orton: Do we need...
• 30:17
  Chase Orton: All right.
• 30:18
  Chase Orton: All right.
• 30:19
  Chase Orton: I, I, I mean, I'm just sipping my coffee.
• 30:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um- Okay.
• 30:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why don't you tell...
• 30:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, let's, let's, I wanna do a quick little- Sure a little poll.
• 30:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: "It's a great day of teaching when I hear, see, or feel my students blank."
• 30:32
  Chase Orton: It, see, hear, or feel my students blank in math class.
• 30:34
  Chase Orton: Okay, let- If you're not a math teacher, any class.
• 30:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 30:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wait- However you want let someone, like, share something.
• 30:41
  Audience: Laugh.
• 30:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Laugh?
• 30:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's a great day if my students laugh.
• 30:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love that.
• 30:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's hear another one.
• 30:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I- Yes.
• 30:48
  Audience: Uh, explain something to another student.
• 30:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Explain something to another student.
• 30:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I agree.
• 30:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's so That's nice.
• 30:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: I agree.
• 30:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: You agree?
• 30:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, let's get one more.
• 30:59
  Audience: Collaboration.
• 31:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, collaborate.
• 31:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: When I see my students collaborate.
• 31:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And yeah, go ahead.
• 31:03
  Audience: Gain confidence.
• 31:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Gain confidence.
• 31:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Those are beautiful things.
• 31:07
  Chase Orton: Uh- Vanessa, what I care about are test scores.
• 31:11
  Chase Orton: And my principal has said that we need to have a 20% increase of our test scores- or we're gonna go on double secret probation- with the state of Texas, and we're gonna lose our accreditation, and I might get fired unless I get these test scores up.
• 31:28
  Chase Orton: So I don't have time for collaboration.
• 31:31
  Chase Orton: I don't have time for laughter.
• 31:33
  Chase Orton: I don't have time for peer-to-peer teaching.
• 31:35
  Chase Orton: I need to bring up my standardized test scores.
• 31:37
  Chase Orton: That's-
• 31:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I feel uncomfortable right now.
• 31:41
  Chase Orton: I, I'm being, I'm being devil's advocate.
• 31:42
  Chase Orton: So where is the middle road between what I am saying and then what you have said?
• 31:47
  Chase Orton: And I don't know what that path looks like.
• 31:49
  Chase Orton: I don't I, I s- I work with so many teachers that are feeling the pressure about standardized test scores.
• 31:55
  Chase Orton: And if they don't go up, they're not a good teacher, and they're gonna get on the pr- principal's poop list, and then they're on notice, and then- it's teachers, like, we don't always have a lot of power.
• 32:07
  Chase Orton: Like, I've been in LA Unified where a mean principal can really screw over a teacher.
• 32:13
  Chase Orton: Like,"Well, we can't fire you, but we can transfer you 30 miles down the road and make your commute an hour each day, each way." And, and they do that for They i, anyway, so I, I just, as teachers, uh, we do have to look out for ourselves and our career and what's important.
• 32:33
  Chase Orton: This is my whole shtick.
• 32:34
  Chase Orton: We want this.
• 32:34
  Chase Orton: It fills us up.
• 32:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 32:36
  Chase Orton: Right?
• 32:36
  Chase Orton: It is a great day of teaching when your kids come in and they're like,"Oh my gosh, what are we doing today?
• 32:40
  Chase Orton: What do you got for us today?"
• 32:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 32:42
  Chase Orton: Right?
• 32:42
  Chase Orton: And we That fills us up, right?
• 32:44
  Chase Orton: But if they're coming in with apathy, and they're coming in with the, a negative attitude or, or bitterness and anger, and they're just wanna be defiant, like, that can really erode us.
• 32:56
  Chase Orton: And a culture of compliance and following mandates and writing your learning objective on the board every day and making sure kids read it out loud and following all these mandates and worried about test scores and, uh, interim district assessments and state tests, um, that erodes.
• 33:15
  Chase Orton: It gets in the way of what nourishes us, and I think that there's real tension there.
• 33:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 33:19
  Chase Orton: And I, I just, I You can read my book.
• 33:21
  Chase Orton: It's, it's a subversive book.
• 33:23
  Chase Orton: I, I don't take it too seriously.
• 33:25
  Chase Orton: You might get fired.
• 33:26
  Chase Orton: I don't want you to do that, but you-
• 33:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Definitely the episode title, I cannot wait.
• 33:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: "Listen to this episode and you might get fired." That's such good copy.
• 33:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: I hear you.
• 33:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm hearing you.
• 33:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
• 33:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 33:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: I am.
• 33:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm wondering, and this is, like, a genuine question.
• 33:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is not me, like, be- because I actually don't know.
• 33:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: So first of all, in Canada, we do not have standardized testing, okay?
• 33:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm just gonna start by saying, oh my God, that everyone just sighed.
• 33:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 33:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can marry all of you.
• 33:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I'm, I'm down.
• 33:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Make me an offer, I can't refuse.
• 34:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, no.
• 34:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: I say that because obviously I'm in a different situation here- Sure because there isn't that pressure.
• 34:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: But let's, but there is the, like, you know, just what the system is designed for, let's be honest, is a sorting mechanism to get students from point A to point B, and right, the sorting right now is for them to graduate high school and then to go to college or university, whatever their thing is, right?
• 34:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, this is the point.
• 34:26
  Chase Orton: Sure, or trade school or- Yeah drop out or-
• 34:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: a sorting thing.
• 34:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: I only say that to say, so let me just ask you this.
• 34:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: In, like, this situation where you're like,"I can't see how we can do both," we're, we are in a bit of a pickle because we are all in the system.
• 34:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really believe, and I think you also believe, otherwise you wouldn't be doing this work, that there are ways to be complicit in a system while rebelling against it, right?
• 34:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: We are, we are all doing things that are moving the needle a bit, like, moving the dial while acknowledging, like, they, we are also preparing kids for whatever they need to do.
• 35:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Until we are no longer in the system, which is the moving a mountain, what is the move here?
• 35:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because, like, if you're kind of, like, y- preparing for a standardized test is eroding them and it's, like, cr- which, yes, it totally is.
• 35:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is the alternative, to, like, never prepare them for the standardized test?
• 35:23
  Chase Orton: Is to get them to fall in love with mathematics, to have math joy.
• 35:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: But how do they, but, but how do they, like, literally l- learn the thing on the test they have to write?
• 35:32
  Chase Orton: I, I don't know if that's a question worth a- asking and answering in my time on this earth
• 35:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 35:38
  Chase Orton: I recognize that other people might wanna be,"How do we prepare kids for this test?" I have asked I've been in that spot figuring it out, and I just, I don't think it's time well spent as a human being.
• 35:53
  Chase Orton: Our time here is short, and I know, I, I know, I, I Some Uh, I know that there are some leaders in this room are like,"Chase, you know, just, sh-"
• 36:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, but I think it's fine for you to say because that's not your job.
• 36:05
  Chase Orton: Sure.
• 36:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's actually fine.
• 36:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you, you say whatever you- Um Like, that's like a musician being like,"I don't b-," like,"I don't know how to teach math." Like, fine.
• 36:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that's not your actual job.
• 36:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Your job isn't preparing someone for a test.
• 36:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's creating joy in these classrooms- Sure and that's what you do well.
• 36:17
  Chase Orton: Sure.
• 36:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that's fine.
• 36:18
  Chase Orton: But I, I wanna call out So you're Canadian, yes?
• 36:22
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 36:22
  Chase Orton: Toronto.
• 36:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is
• 36:23
  Chase Orton: that what you're calling out?
• 36:23
  Chase Orton: Toronto-based.
• 36:23
  Chase Orton: No.
• 36:23
  Chase Orton: I'm calling out how much money do the taxpayers of the United States turn over to testing agencies- that you do not as a country.
• 36:35
  Chase Orton: You invest in probably hu- humans- being better teachers, and what's going Uh, maybe, maybe I'm sure as a Canadian on the inside you see some of the illnesses-
• 36:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I actually don't know.
• 36:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I want you to tell me what.
• 36:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually don't even know.
• 36:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: But
• 36:47
  Chase Orton: I don't, I don't know what the line-by-line item is for Somebody in this room perhaps may know, or somebody in the district knows what Leander is paying-
• 36:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God
• 36:55
  Chase Orton: for- This has got to be- all of the whatevers crazy And it's not just Leander.
• 36:59
  Chase Orton: It's, it's, it's all the It's, it's California.
• 37:03
  Chase Orton: It's, it's the LA Unified.
• 37:05
  Chase Orton: It's, it's You, you, your p- statement is powerful.
• 37:08
  Chase Orton: We don't have standardized testing.
• 37:10
  Chase Orton: That means that there isn't a b- multibillion-dollar industry driving up profits funded by taxpayers.
• 37:16
  Chase Orton: And I know money's tight here in Leander, and it's tight all over Texas, and it's tight all over the country.
• 37:23
  Chase Orton: but it's not tight if you're i-Ready, right?
• 37:27
  Chase Orton: And, and whatever the And Pearson and their, those testing companies.
• 37:31
  Chase Orton: Like, what wou- could we do with that capital- if we didn't turn it over to freaking numbers on a screen, and yellow data, red data, green data that tells us the same thing that we always know all the time, which is our disadvantaged populations don't do as well as our advantaged populations.
• 37:50
  Chase Orton: And we're spending billions of dollars just to remind ourselves of that truth.
• 37:54
  Chase Orton: And this is part of the nefarious stuff that was happening, um, with the Nation at Risk in the early'80s, which got totally That research got distorted and changed.
• 38:06
  Chase Orton: And then with No Child Left Behind and the focus on accountability and assessment was really just laying a foundation of a profit-driven model around test scores.
• 38:15
  Chase Orton: Okay.
• 38:17
  Chase Orton: And I, yeah, I don't get...
• 38:18
  Chase Orton: I get fired up about it.
• 38:19
  Chase Orton: Well- I might get a, a little uncomfortable in the seat, but- I, I get really uncomfortable.
• 38:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, but this is good.
• 38:25
  Chase Orton: I get, I get...
• 38:26
  Chase Orton: My blood boils about the profit.
• 38:29
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 38:30
  Chase Orton: And who's it for?
• 38:31
  Chase Orton: It's not for us as teachers.
• 38:33
  Chase Orton: Test scores do not...
• 38:35
  Chase Orton: You, uh, Alan, you was sharing, you got your test scores back, yeah?
• 38:39
  Chase Orton: And collectively they went up, right?
• 38:40
  Chase Orton: They're like colle- but did you get any meaningful data on an individual student that helps you grow as a teacher?
• 38:47
  Chase Orton: maybe, and I would love to know that or not.
• 38:50
  Chase Orton: But I, I, test scores, they don't nourish our passion for the work that we do.
• 38:54
  Chase Orton: They don't tell us how to grow.
• 38:56
  Chase Orton: It's not the data that we need to be looking at, and this is where Peter and engagement and thinking and BTC really is helpful about shifting what are we looking at in a classroom?
• 39:05
  Chase Orton: What are we, what are, what data are we really valuing?
• 39:08
  Chase Orton: And yes, ultimately, we want our students to learn more content.
• 39:11
  Chase Orton: We want them to solve problems that they couldn't solve before, and demonstrate that they actually learned some math this year.
• 39:18
  Chase Orton: uh, w- we want that, but it's also, we operate continually in the street data Shane Safir, right, another Corwin author talks about, and this human data that I talk about.
• 39:27
  Chase Orton: Like, that's the world that we live in.
• 39:29
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 39:29
  Chase Orton: That's what you all cited, right?
• 39:31
  Chase Orton: Like, it, it's not, nobody in here is like,"Man, I really love it when kids are just crushing it on their i-Ready diagnostic assessments." Like- I've never seen it, but I've seen it up in the faculty lounge, right?
• 39:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Link to i-Ready in the show notes, everyone.
• 39:46
  Chase Orton: You know?
• 39:47
  Chase Orton: i-Ready, well, my problem with i-Ready, and I, here goes my opportunity to ever work for them, and I never would.
• 39:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is on a podcast, I'm just letting you know.
• 39:53
  Chase Orton: It's fine.
• 39:54
  Chase Orton: Okay, go.
• 39:55
  Chase Orton: They, they sell curriculum-
• 39:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, go for it
• 39:57
  Chase Orton: that is crap.
• 39:59
  Chase Orton: Um, if you were in my animal shelter lesson, have you seen my animal...
• 40:02
  Chase Orton: that is i-Ready's math curriculum.
• 40:04
  Chase Orton: And then they create curriculum that creates, encourages bad pedagogy, that creates math classes that don't work for kids, that then gets diagnosed by their own assessment, right?
• 40:14
  Chase Orton: And then so it's a little bit like big pharma creating the disease and then selling us the cure, um, and profiting on both sides.
• 40:23
  Chase Orton: And so i-Ready in particular I, I struggle with because they are both assessment and, and curriculum at the same time.
• 40:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Isn't that most curriculum companies?
• 40:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or no?
• 40:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh- We, again, we don't have curriculum companies.
• 40:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, you- And that's the other thing.
• 40:35
  Chase Orton: Yeah, I know.
• 40:36
  Chase Orton: You, how much money do we spend on textbooks?
• 40:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, it's a totally different system.
• 40:40
  Chase Orton: Stop, y'all.
• 40:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: When we use the word curriculum in Canada, it means content.
• 40:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: So that's why when I'm like,"Get through the curriculum," I'm like,"Eh," I mean content.
• 40:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: We don't have this whole system.
• 40:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh.
• 40:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know what is funny?
• 40:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: That, sorry, do you wanna keep going?
• 40:53
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 40:53
  Chase Orton: I- Yeah.
• 40:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Please do.
• 40:54
  Chase Orton: I mean, yeah.
• 40:55
  Chase Orton: Where's my soapbox?
• 40:56
  Chase Orton: I'll put a soapbox on a soapbox.
• 40:59
  Chase Orton: Um, I, I do wor- I, I, uh, I, I have deep friends or dear friends that work with for-profit companies like Savvas and- and other organ- uh, Amplify and other organizations that, are thinly veiled profit-driven models toward profiting off of taxpayers' money.
• 41:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know how thinly veiled it is
• 41:20
  Chase Orton: Okay.
• 41:21
  Chase Orton: This-
• 41:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 41:22
  Chase Orton: Well- Like thinly veiled means it's barely veiled.
• 41:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I feel like-
• 41:26
  Chase Orton: It's not veiled at all
• 41:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: it's not...
• 41:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, right.
• 41:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 41:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 41:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 41:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're, we're- What you're saying, yeah
• 41:30
  Chase Orton: yeah, yeah.
• 41:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like,"It's pretty obvious." Um, and, and
• 41:33
  Chase Orton: I, and this, I mean, this screws me out of any sort of cushy job with, with a-
• 41:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: But you don't want one anyway
• 41:39
  Chase Orton: No, but it's-
• 41:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're an, you're an, what did you say?
• 41:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're not, a non-compliant employee
• 41:43
  Chase Orton: I'm a critic.
• 41:43
  Chase Orton: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:44
  Chase Orton: So I- Yeah yeah, it's fine I'm a critic.
• 41:46
  Chase Orton: And, um, it puts me at odds with some of my friends sometimes.
• 41:50
  Chase Orton: and I'm very lucky to have the work that I have.
• 41:53
  Chase Orton: I'm very grateful for the journey that I've been on, as weird as it's been.
• 41:57
  Chase Orton: And I am blessed, so I don't want my cynicism toward the system we work in to be ungrateful for my position.
• 42:06
  Chase Orton: It is such a privilege to work with you all.
• 42:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um- I don't think we're reading it that way.
• 42:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, good.
• 42:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I w- I think we're reading it as you're passionate about w- in your role, what you're...
• 42:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: We all have different strengths that we bring to the profession.
• 42:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 42:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like- Yeah your strength might not be working in the classroom, in compliance, but your strength is bringing joy and showing us moments where we can be subversive within the classrooms that we're in to create something that is missing in math education, and that's what you do very well.
• 42:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't think you're coming across as cynical- like, in the way of, like,"Oh, he's just jaded and cynical." I think you're coming across as you're very passionate because you see a problem that could be solved, and instead of solving it, many stakeholders are perpetuating it.
• 42:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that's what it's coming across as to me, and I think it's probably refreshing for us to all be able to nod and be silent and not have our names attached to this rant- when most of us agree.
• 43:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you, thank you for, for being an ally.
• 43:03
  Chase Orton: Sure, sure.
• 43:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you know what is really funny?
• 43:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: We actually, like, somehow only have 10 minutes and I wanna open up to questions.
• 43:08
  Chase Orton: Yeah,
• 43:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: yeah.
• 43:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Go for it.
• 43:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, but before I do, I do have to note this full circle.
• 43:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know if you guys have been noticing our dynamic.
• 43:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: We started with this, of you b- of ta- you talking about ambiguity.
• 43:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like,"Yeah, yeah".
• 43:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: It is so clear that I'm so uncomfortable with ambiguity,'cause I keep trying to find a resolution, and being like- No, no"But can you just tell them, like- There's no way couldn't we just..." And you keep being like- No"No.
• 43:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: There is no- there is no solution." And I'm like,"You're not, we need to wrap this up in a bow.
• 43:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: We've gotta give them something to walk away with.
• 43:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have to give them something hopeful." And you're kind of sitting in it, being like,"Today, as of the recording of this podcast, there is no solution." And I think, like, I'm learning my lesson of being like,"Wow," like, my need to, my, like, fawn response and need to just have everyone being happy and to have everything good sometimes does get in the way of me being like,"Nope, we still have a problem, and we still need to work on it." So I feel kind of like I'm being a bit served here.
• 44:04
  Chase Orton: Uh, okay.
• 44:06
  Chase Orton: You're...
• 44:06
  Chase Orton: I, I mean, I...
• 44:10
  Chase Orton: turning it over to the crowd.
• 44:11
  Chase Orton: I, I would...
• 44:11
  Chase Orton: Just my last thing, becoming the teacher you wanna be, you can't do it alone.
• 44:16
  Chase Orton: Uh, and we do not have the culture of professionalism.
• 44:19
  Chase Orton: We do not have the tenacious community of support, the trustworthy relationships we need to, to help each other grow.
• 44:26
  Chase Orton: But the best professional development is happening in the classroom right next to you, and it doesn't have to be a same grade level teacher.
• 44:33
  Chase Orton: It doesn't even have to be a math teacher.
• 44:35
  Chase Orton: But just going, watching a teacher do their thing in class, and struggle, and toil, and, and thrive, and have success, I...
• 44:45
  Chase Orton: It's the best use of our professional pupil-free time is just watching math class from...
• 44:50
  Chase Orton: or math class or class in general from the student perspective.
• 44:54
  Chase Orton: And I don't...
• 44:55
  Chase Orton: I've just learned that we as teachers, when we have that, help me see what I can't see for myself, right?
• 45:02
  Chase Orton: Like, if we had worked together for five years, you would pretty...
• 45:05
  Chase Orton: be pretty clear about my blind, blind spots, right?
• 45:07
  Chase Orton: And I yours.
• 45:08
  Chase Orton: Right?
• 45:09
  Chase Orton: And helping each other see what we can't see for ourselves.
• 45:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 45:12
  Chase Orton: So I, I give each other grace.
• 45:14
  Chase Orton: Find the people that are gonna help you thrive.
• 45:16
  Chase Orton: We are all imperfect.
• 45:18
  Chase Orton: And just remembering that as however you make your meaning as a teacher, um, that you support each other, and, and you love each other, and you help each other grow and thrive.
• 45:29
  Chase Orton: And, it's on us.
• 45:31
  Chase Orton: Like, I, I...
• 45:32
  Chase Orton: There is no them that are gonna come save us as teachers.
• 45:35
  Chase Orton: It's on us to really support each other and lift each other up, and that's all I'm gonna say on that.
• 45:43
  Chase Orton: Uh, I'm gonna turn it over to you.
• 45:45
  Chase Orton: Questions, turn to talks, whatever you wanna, yada, yada, yada.
• 45:53
  Chase Orton: Pear Square.
• 45:54
  Chase Orton: Oh.
• 45:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: What are we doing?
• 45:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: What are we doing?
• 45:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: What are we doing?
• 45:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you so much.
• 45:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 45:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Beautiful.
• 46:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, this is, this is...
• 46:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, let's, let's conclude.
• 46:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: First of all, that was so fun.
• 46:06
  Chase Orton: Yeah, it was a good time.
• 46:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I honestly think, for the districts, if you're watching this and you're like,"What are we doing with our lives?" You are doing something groundbreaking.
• 46:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: You are.
• 46:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 46:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause this is the first time we've done a session like this, and just because somebody's saying it out loud doesn't mean no one was already thinking it.
• 46:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 46:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, like, let's just clear, have that there.
• 46:23
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 46:23
  Chase Orton: Yeah.
• 46:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're so great.
• 46:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're so- You all are great uncomfortable right now.
• 46:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, yay.
• 46:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do you wanna get up and stretch?
• 46:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, here's what we're gonna do.
• 46:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: We are gonna end this recording, okay?
• 46:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you guys so much for being here.
• 46:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's do an applause for the recording.
• 46:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whoo.
• 46:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Guys, oh my God, our first ever live applause.
• 46:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: How insane is that?
• 46:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I didn't even, like, hold up one of those signs instructing the audience to, like, applaud now.
• 46:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: But oh my God, that's a great idea for next time now that I've thought about it.
• 46:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: This interview really left me feeling the weight of what all educators are feeling right now.
• 47:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: I heard it not only from Chase, but from over 50 of you that were in the room, and it left me wondering, what do we do with, like, the intense, unrelenting, and totally warranted anger we feel at the system we're all in, a system that often makes it so, so hard to be the teachers we were born to be?
• 47:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wanna hear from you.
• 47:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do you cope?
• 47:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do you thrive?
• 47:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do you flourish when that frustration, sadness, and anger is present?
• 47:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Text the podcast by hitting the Text Us link in your show notes or DM me on Instagram.
• 47:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: My handle is@themathguru.
• 47:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if you have any thoughts on how I can make the next Math Therapy Live episode even better, because there will be more, text me your thoughts as well.
• 47:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: And guys, thank you all for being along for this wild ride.
• 47:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: We've got big things coming this year, including a giveaway for the new Texas Instruments EVO calculator, which will happen in one of the next two episodes this month.
• 47:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: So follow, subscribe, and tune in every week, and thank you for being here.