Latest / Arrivals: A Birth Story Podcast / A breech VBAC, autism, surrogacy, home birth, spirit babies, and a magical medium mama
Transcript
- Merelise: Before we dive into today's episode, I want to talk to you about something incredibly close to my heart, and that's maternal health. I've spoken a lot about my own experiences on this podcast, especially related to mental health, and how important it is to seek help, whether through therapy or medicine. But we all know that's easier said than done. That's where Mère comes in, a virtual maternal health care clinic serving women from preconception through menopause. Mère was founded by a mom, just like you or me. Who struggled to find the support she needed during her own maternal health journey and wanted to create a better experience for other women. Mère brings together therapists, women's health providers, and pelvic floor specialists who understand the unique challenges women face throughout motherhood. Mère believes women deserve care that looks at the whole picture, not just one symptom or one appointment at a time. Book a free 15-minute phone call today and learn more at Mère-ForEveryChapter.com. That's Mère M-E-R-E dash for every chapter dot com. Merelise Wilson: I would love that. Let's def I definitely want to touch on that, on all of all right, sounds like you you like Gear Pro, you know, I will I might ask questions as we, you know, go along, like if I wanna hit on anything in particular. But I mean it sounds like you're an amazing storyteller. So like I have no doubt it'll it'll be amazing. Devyn: Thank you. Merelise Wilson: All right, you ready? Okay, Devyn: Yeah. Ready. Merelise Wilson: all right. Well, welcome to the Arrivals Podcast. I'm your host, Marilee Swilson, and today I have the amazing, magical, incredible Devyn Goss here with me. Hi, Devyn. Devyn: Hi, thank you for having me. Merelise Wilson: I'm so excited to talk with you today. We have a lot of babies to talk about. Devyn: Mm-hmm. Yep. Merelise Wilson: Six. So everybody like put your buckle up. We've got we've got a good one for you. Devyn: It sounds so crazy when you say six, but it's like I feel like I'm like, Yeah, I've had six, whatever. Merelise Wilson: That's insane. That is like that's really, really crazy. How f what's the age like range? Devyn: Sure, yeah. my oldest is gonna be fourteen this year. and my baby Merelise Wilson: Okay. Devyn: is two. So I have ages in between. So I go from almost fourteen down to two. Merelise Wilson: That's so cool. it's not technically a motherhood podcast, but I have I'm so curious about what it's like to have that large of an age gap with siblings. I bet it's amazing. Devyn: Yeah. well, and I have a unique experience anyway, because my three older Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: kiddos are severely autistic. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: but I am 11, almost 12 years older than my youngest sibling. And so I already kind of Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: had that experience because my middle brother and I are only a year apart. and so I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: knew that what what an incredible experience it is to have siblings like all across the age spans. So like some of Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: my kids are 19 months apart, some of my kids are five years apart. Some of my kids are teenagers Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: to babies. Like I think it's such a cool way of like immersing them with each other in like these different experiences of life. But also there's challenges. So like I won't act like that's not a thing. Like my oldest is like in his like teenage years. So he's like, I love all you guys, but also like I'm gonna lock myself in the room. Merelise Wilson: Differ different kind of hard. Devyn: Yeah, for sure. Merelise Wilson: And so I'm like doing the math in my head because I think we're around the same age. So y Devyn: Mm-hmm. Merelise Wilson: like, did you know that you wanted to have babies pretty young? Were you pretty young when you had your first? Devyn: Yeah. so I'll just kind of jump in. So Merelise Wilson: Yeah, jump in. Devyn: I yeah, I got married at 19. my Merelise Wilson: wow. Devyn: husband and I have known each other since we were kids. Our moms worked together. and I Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: like had a crush on him for years and we just never like found each other at the right time. And then we started dating, and it was just like, okay, we're together now. Like, so we just got married and then Merelise Wilson: No. Devyn: I had planned to wait five years to have kids because I had some travel I wanted to do and some career stuff. And sorry, audience, you're about to hear something that might make some of you guys like, no. I actually got pregnant with my oldest son on the depot Provera shot. and so yeah, I was 20. Yeah. is. Merelise Wilson: Tell me more about that. That's like that's is that a birth control shot? Devyn: Yep. So I had been on it for a couple of years and it's kind of like a cyclical shot where it's like you get it and it lasts for a certain amount of time, then you get it again. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: and so I was coming up on the end of that cycle, but I had been on it for so long, I was like, that's fine. Like there's no, I wasn't tracking my cycle or anything back then. because everything was regular, everything was like clockwork. I was like a baby. and so when I did find out I was pregnant, I was almost nine weeks because I was like, Had no idea. and as I I would say within five minutes of finding out I was pregnant, I got violently ill until I was like 26 weeks pregnant. It was horrible. I always Merelise Wilson: Mm, Devyn: butcher this as hyper hypermesis. Merelise Wilson: Hyper emesis. Devyn: Thank you, hypermesis. I was like, I always butcher this, which is terrible because I'm a doula. I should know this. but I had that. And I was getting like IV fluids, like it was brutal. Like I was so sick. and so I always knew I wanted I always when I was a kid, I used to say I wanted like 10 kids. Like I was like, I want so many kids, I love kids. My youngest sibling is almost 12 years younger, so I helped my parents a lot with him. he's actually only like eight years older than my oldest son. and Merelise Wilson: Wow. Devyn: yeah, I know. So Merelise Wilson: That's fun. I bet that's kinda that's gotta be kinda fun for them. Devyn: It was cool. I mean, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: my oldest is autistic. so it was definitely a unique experience because it I think if he wasn't, they would have been a lot closer. But it was cool for them to kind of like they've kind of grown up together, him and my second son, because my second son's Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: 12. so yeah. So I did really want children, but I just wasn't planning on them that soon. But so then I was like, all right. We're we're just gonna buckle in. This is what it is. and I will say, you know, I'm a practicing medium and I'm a witch, and I have been forever. and so my oldest son actually came to me in a dream about two years before I got pregnant with him. and I knew it was my son. I didn't know who I was marrying, I didn't know anything. I he was it sitting in a jack-o'-lantern. He was a baby sitting in a jack-o'lanter, blonde haired baby. And in my mind, I was like, my son is gonna be like conceived around Halloween or born around Halloween. And he was conceived the week after Halloween. And he is a spooky Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Devyn: dude. He loves witchcraft. He loves all of my occult stuff. Like he is so into it. Merelise Wilson: I love it. I'm like picturing like a little do you remember like those little I feel like calendars is like babies sitting in like cute things, you know what I mean? Like I'm picturing like this like button little baby sitting in like a jack-olanor like a mold pose. I'm sure it was like more magical and like more sp spiritual than that, but that's what comes to mind. Devyn: It was so cute. I do, I just remember it. I just remember it very and so when I did find out I was pregnant with him, I knew immediately I was having a boy. I was like, my husband was like, I Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: don't know. And I was like, nope, no questions. I will like die on this hill. I'm having a boy. To the point where when I went to the ultrasound, the ultrasound was like, What are you thinking? And I was like, I'm not thinking, I'm having a boy. And she was like, We'll see. And within like two seconds, she was like, Mom's right. So it was funny. but yeah, so that was like my kind of my I mean initiation into like the birth pregnancy world. And I love my mother, my grandmother's amazing, amazing people. However, none of them talked about birth, talked about pregnancy. like I feel like when you're being raised, especially by women who are not taught themselves or who are not embracing of these things themselves. It's like nobody talks to you about your vagina. Nobody talks to you about your cycle. Nobody talks to you about what the heck happens in the body at each point of the month. I track my cycle with the moon, how important that is for women. Nobody tells you any of this stuff. It's you're not even supposed to like touch it. It's like don't touch it. Don't look at it. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Right. Devyn: Especially in the South. And I feel bad saying that, but it is true. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: and so I read Women Who Run with the Wolves when I was a teenager, and it just like ripped my brain apart. Like I was like, we can do things differently. Like this is crazy. it's incr it's Merelise Wilson: I don't know that one. I g I gotta add that to my list. I don't know that one. Devyn: incredible. It basically is talking about the wild woman architect and how so many of us are born as wild women, but it's suppressed and how these Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: urges like come out later in life and how they turn into things like autoimmune disease. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: yeah, so it's fascinating. so anyway, I read that when I was a teenager. And so I remember when I was pregnant with my oldest son, I was like really curious about like home birth and unmedicated birth and not vaccinating, like all these like things that everybody that I knew was like, that's hippie, or that's uneducated, or what like and I was the only person I knew having a child because I was not even 20 years old. So nobody Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: around me was even thinking about children at that point. and I remember really using my abilities and connecting with my son a lot throughout the pregnancy and just being like, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: What do you want? How do you feel aligned? And When I did finally end up going into labor, I remember telling my doctor like that I thought I was in labor. I remember telling my doctor I thought I was having an elephant. And like just having all of these people around me be like, You're young, you don't know what you're talking about. This baby's probably six pounds. You're not in labor yet. And then Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: they were like, you're in labor, go to the hospital. And I'm just gonna give a reference here. My husband is six, six, okay. It's not crazy that I would have a humongous baby. It's not crazy. But Merelise Wilson: No, not at all. Devyn: I'm I'm five, four. Like I'm not a big person. I'm a normal size person. So when I did have my son, he was 10 pounds, 22 and a half inches. First baby out the gate. Merelise Wilson: A lot of babies. Devyn: And this I know. And this doctor was like, Where were you hiding this baby? And I'm like, you're not listening to the woman, to the intuition, to the person who is carrying the child. Like Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: Ugh, so anyway, so Merelise Wilson: So you so you were at a like a like more of a traditional O B practice for this first pregnancy? Okay. Devyn: Yes. Yeah. So I'll talk about that. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: so because I was so sick, I was nervous to not be seen by like medical care. And my mom is one of those people who she's very supportive when you are solid about something and you're like, you're not pushing me, I'm not budging. She's like, Great, a hundred percent supporting you. If you are like a little on the fence, she will lean you towards the safer option. And my mom was sort of my confidant during this experience because I was so young. And so I remember my mom really pushing me to do like typical OB care. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: So I did. And my first doctor I was not aligned with. I was not happy. And so I ended up switching at like 25 weeks, which was like unheard of at the time. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: and so I ended up finding this other OB who I vibed with pretty well, which was funny because he was an elderly white man. And you're thinking, I mean, he literally looked like Albert Einstein. Like I was like, Merelise Wilson: I love it. Devyn: I know, I was like, sir, who are you? And what what and he I was like, you are gonna look at my vagina? Like, and he's just like, We're not gonna make this weird. Look at the birds I took pictures of. I'm a bird watcher. so anyway, but Merelise Wilson: Ha ha Devyn: He just was very knowledgeable and he did know a lot about like older school practices that I was more aligned Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: with. So I did end up having my son naturally at the hospital. but my labor process was brutal because I was not educated on things like Pitocin. And so Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: when my labor was taking quite a long time and stalling Because it was my first baby, and because he was Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: huge, I wasn't going fast enough for the hospital. The hospital was like, you've been here seven hours and you haven't progressed. You need Pitocin. So, of course, at this point in my life, I have no idea this is not standard procedure. I have no idea that I can say no. So Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: I'm like, great, let's do it. It changed my labor and birth experience astronomically. Because the Pitocin made my contractions so fast and so intense before my son was ready to move at that capacity. And Merelise Wilson: Uh-huh. Devyn: he was having distress in the birth canal. When he came out, he ended up having to go to the NICU for several hours because of breathing struggles. And Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: I was so distraught just because I felt like there was so much interference. That I even remember at one point telling a nurse, like, she was like, You need to push. I was like, I am pushing. She's like, You're not pushing the right way. And this was a woman. And I'm like, we Merelise Wilson: Mm, mm-hmm. Devyn: as birthing women, like, we need women around us who are rooting for us, who are holding us Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: in our transition. This is a spiritual Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: experience, whether you're a spiritual being or not. The closest that we come to Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Right. Devyn: death is from maiden to mother. Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: And mother to mother, you know. Merelise Wilson: Yes, yes. Devyn: And not being in a space where you feel safe, held, listened to, cared for, it really delays the birth process because babies are that your Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: body doesn't feel safe to birth the baby. Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: So that was my first experience. So after that, I was like, never again. Like if I have more children, I'm having a completely different experience. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: I felt like my son chose the way he wanted to come in because it will it opened me up to the world of birth and knowledge around birth and advocacy around Merelise Wilson: Mm, mm. Devyn: birth because it really made me like, no, no, no, this isn't happening again. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: so cut to I'm not planning on having kids again for several years, and I have a surprise baby. I get pregnant on accident. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: And I always feel bad saying this because I know there are people listening who have had fertility struggles, and I just want to hold space for that because I work with Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: so many clients who have fertility struggles who have been trying for children for years. And I will talk about this. I was a surrogate myself. and so I am very respectful and honoring of those things. And I do understand how incredibly upsetting and frustrating it is to hear someone say, I got pregnant on accident. So I just want to hold space Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: for that because I know how how hard that is through the lens of others. I haven't experienced it myself. so I know that Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you for that. Devyn: can be incredible. Yeah, I know that can be incredibly frustrating to hear. So I just wanted to say that. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: so my son, my second son, fooled me. He was like, I'm a girl. I was like, great. and was like, I had no sickness, completely different pregnancy, thought that something was wrong because I was like, What's Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: happening? Like, is the baby okay? and that is just in line with his personality. Like he was born on Houdini's birthday. I was like, You're a trickster spirit. Yeah. Merelise Wilson: That's so funny. I love that. That's so cool. Devyn: yeah, he's also very balanced in his feminine and masculine. So, like I've Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: also done a lot of past life work around my children. He and I have had a past life together in Egypt where he was a woman. So I was Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: picking up some of that as well, some of that residual soul energy. yeah, so with my second, I had an epidural birth. I had a breezy four and a half hour labor delivery, like waited until I went into labor, water broke, went to the hospital. I wasn't even gonna get the epidural. And then I was like, you know what? I'm getting it. I wanna relax. And I didn't even need it. I just I was in that headspace of like. I want to be in control of this. And I know that if I say yes to this and I am in the head space of I'm relaxed, I'm calm, I'm present, that this is going to honor that. Well, I was wrong because I ended up having a reaction to the epidural. My blood pressure tanked. And I Merelise Wilson: Mm. Mm. Devyn: just started vomiting everywhere, like so sick. and I will tell you, I know there's a lot of people who have sensitivity to drugs, certain things. What a lot of people don't realize, and I'm saying this as the spiritual person, not the birthing person talking, what a lot of people don't realize is people who are extremely sensitive spiritually are extremely affected by things like medicine and plant allies. And so if Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: we're not working in tandem with those things and explaining what our body needs from them, why they're coming into our body, all these different things, our body a lot of time will expel them or react negatively to them. And so at the time, I'm 22, I'm not really aware that I need to communicate with medication. I'm like, yeah, I've always had weird reactions to stuff, but Didn't really understand that's what it was. But now, many years later on my journey, I do know that. So I always like to tell my clients that when I'm working with them as a doula or a practitioner through spirit, Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: because it's something that I like people to take into consideration if they're opening up on their spiritual journey. You're gonna be more impacted by things like medication after the fact. Just so everyone knows. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Interesting. So, okay. Yeah, that's so interesting. I mean, it makes sense. And I'm I'm curious. Devyn: Yeah. Merelise Wilson: So I know you said like your your son's birth was less than ideal. And that kind of like Devyn: Mm-hmm. Merelise Wilson: it broke you open in so many ways, first time mom, but also like introduced you to this this birth world. And Devyn: Mm-hmm. Merelise Wilson: and then I I was kind of surprised, honestly, to hear you say that you decided to have Devyn: Yep. Merelise Wilson: your second son in a hospital. So I'm curious, like, what was the like the in between? you know, your first and your second, like how did you decide what like what to pursue or like if you if you did want to change anything, what did you like want to try to change for your second birth experience that ultimately led to you giving Devyn: Yeah. Merelise Wilson: birth again in a hospital? Devyn: So I spent the first like trimester and a half like studying home birth experiences and birthing centers. Mind you, at the time, this is 12, 13 years ago, there wasn't a lot of options where I was in Georgia. I Merelise Wilson: Yeah, yeah. Devyn: hate to say this, so Southerners don't get mad at me. I'm a Southern girly. But the South is really behind when it comes to medical stuff. It's really delayed in the birth world. it's got the the worst like birth, like mortality rates in birth for birthing mothers and children, like all of these things. And this is the South as a whole. This isn't just like one state. and so Merelise Wilson: Right. Well, Georgia in particular has a higher maternal mortality rate than the national average, which is heartbreaking, but true. Mm-hmm. Devyn: Yeah, it's very heartbreaking. Yeah. And and that's one of the reasons that I did go this route is because once again I was very young and I only my older two kids are only 19 months apart. So I was still sort of in postpartum when I found out I was pregnant again. And so I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: was like, my gosh, like I haven't even had time to process my first birth. I'm pregnant again. And so the only thing I kept getting from my son during that pregnancy was, you need to feel safe. You need to feel safe. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: That was his message throughout the entire pregnancy. He didn't have a specific birth he wanted to experience. It was very much like, I'm gonna come in very easily. You just need to feel safe. Merelise Wilson: Mm, mm-hmm. Devyn: because I did end up having a placental retention after his delivery and hemorrhaging. And so Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: It was actually a good thing I was in the hospital because it's not that you cannot experience something like that in a home birth and be safe, especially if you have a skilled home birth practitioner who knows how to stop the bleeding, get you safely to a hospital. But at the time, there wasn't a there, you you can just go online and look up skilled home birth midwife who knows how to do XYZ XYZ. Like we didn't have that kind of access yet. On our phones, you Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: know, there was just not as much, and I'm sure these people existed, but it was not easy to find them. Merelise Wilson: Yes. Devyn: and so my husband during the pregnancy as well was like, this was many years ago. And so he was just like, Why do you want a birth outside of the hospital? Like, that's weird. And I was like, What do you mean? And Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Devyn: he was like, Nobody does that. And I'm like, people do it. And he's like, Yeah, crazy hippies who live on buses, like in that book you read. And so he was he was talking about Ina May Gaskin and and spiritual mid Yeah. Yeah, midway free Merelise Wilson: I was gonna say, was sh was he talking about the farm? Yeah. Yeah. Devyn: and I'm like, no, this is a dream, this is a dream and he's like, Devyn, this isn't Merelise Wilson: This Devyn: reality. Merelise Wilson: That sounds exactly like my husband and I had almost an identical conversation. Devyn: It's the Southerners, like I think it's Southern Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: men. Like it's like my husband is so different now because he's lived with me for 16 years. I'm a practicing witch. He's Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: seen all of these magical things. He's witnessed me with clients. So he knows all this stuff exists. And he's also witnessed me have babies at home. And so he's like, You're a powerhouse. It's incredible. But at the time, he's like 25, 26 years old. And he's like, What the hell are you talking about? Like, just go to the hospital, Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: you know. Merelise Wilson: That's all they know, yeah. Yeah. Devyn: So exactly. And and his mom and his sister, he had he had seen his niece be born. he was there with his sister. And when she was born, she wasn't breathing. The umbilical cord Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. that's cool. Devyn: was wrapped around her neck multiple times, and she's a few years older than our older two kids. And so he had a little bit of birth trauma because he saw that. And so he was like, What Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Devyn: would happen if that happened with our baby and we're at home? Merelise Wilson: Right. Right. Devyn: And I want to hold space for that too, because I feel like there's a lot of women who want a birth at home and their husbands are like terrified. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: that's a real fear to have. And I do appreciate that, but I also feel like there's so much education now. I trained with the Born Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: Free method. They have like a dad's men's group. they have a training program for partners together. Like it is incredible, incredible. So Merelise Wilson: That's awesome. That is awesome. Devyn: That's why I went that route was just because between my my son being like, I just want you to feel safe, the pressure of like the people around me, and me just not really having like the research that I was doing, not coming up finding very many other options. and so Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Devyn: I did, I did go that route. And I was like, man, I'm never gonna have this dream birth because my husband was like, done, no more kids. And I was like crushed. Cause I'm like, I want like 17 children. What are you talking about? And he's like, you're absolutely insane. Done. so my older two children were diagnosed with autism and nonverbal speech delays, sensory issues, ADHD, et cetera, et cetera. So we waited five years before Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: we had another child. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: I felt my third son knocking at the door for many years. He was like, I'm ready to come Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: in. And join this crew. And I would start having the conversation with my husband. And he's like, absolutely not. You're crazy. And I was just like, come on, come on, come on. Like, I this baby's here. my gosh, I know it. And he's just like, hard no. And I mean, years, years of this. And so finally we we were coming up on like the four year mark. And I looked at him and I said, I desperately want to have this other child. Like, I know our family is not complete. And I was like, I Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: don't know if it'll ever feel complete for me, but I know it's not complete. And so he finally was like, Okay. And I was pregnant the first try of this child. Like first time trying for this kid. He was like Merelise Wilson: Wow. Wow. He was ready to come in. Yeah. Devyn: on my forehead for like three years. Like, are you gonna have me? Merelise Wilson: Like hello. I'm waiting. Devyn: Yeah. And he's an Aquarius. He is like, I call him an alien child because he is so spiritually in tune, but he is so weird. Merelise Wilson: I love it. I love it. Devyn: And I will say his birth reflected that. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: I for his entire pregnancy, I prepped for home birth. So I found a home birth midwife. I did all the research. I was so excited. I had done a lot of my own like training on advocacy. And I was going to an OBGYN like once Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: every, I don't know, two months just to do like check-ins because it made my husband feel better. But I was also working with this midwife on the side and I was like, this is it. I'm gonna have the water birth. I'm gonna have the dream. I'm so excited. And I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: get to my 36 week appointment, and my OB's like, this baby is breach. And I'm like, so, so what? And she's like, Cause I forgot I left this detail out. My second son was breached, but he flipped at 37 weeks. Merelise Wilson: wow. Okay. Did you do anything to like encourage him to flep? He just slept on his Devyn: Yeah, he just flipped. No, Merelise Wilson: own? Devyn: he just he and that's his personality. He's like, I do what I want when I want. Literally. Yes, that's my second. So my third, he Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Houdini. It's the Houdini baby, right? Yeah. my gosh. my gosh. Okay. Devyn: he was breach, and I started really meditating and sitting with him. And I was like, what are you trying to communicate with me? Because I am 100% open to trying to deliver you naturally, breach. But I'm also aware that you're going to be a very big baby. And I want to hold space for like what journey do you want? Like, what is your expression? Like, what is the birthday coming through? Like all these things. And he kept showing me that he was not going to flip. He's like, it doesn't matter what Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: you do. It doesn't matter how many handstands you do. what chiropractor you go to, like I'm not flipping. Like this is the presentation that I'm remaining in. And I ignored Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: that. I went to all the, I went to the chiropractor. I tried to get the doctor to flip like everything. And he was like, nope, not budging. So I had this conversation with my midwife and my doctor at like 38 weeks. And I was like, this baby's coming very soon. I can feel it. I knew I wasn't going to go to 40 weeks. I had this feeling. And Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: Which it didn't really make sense because my oldest came almost 40 weeks. My second came 41 weeks. So I was kind of like just feeling off of this child. And so the OB looks me dead in the face and she's like, I am so supportive of everything that you want to do, but I cannot legally deliver him in the hospital breach vaginally. She was like, I it's a liability. She's like, I'm not trained in it. And there was only one doctor Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: on the staff who was trained in it. And he straight up was like, I will not deliver a potentially 11-pound baby vaginally breach. Like he was like, absolutely not. And I was like Merelise Wilson: Mm. Yeah. Devyn: so brokenhearted because I'm just like, I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: want to have this baby the way I want to have this baby. So the rebellious part of me was like, just stay home. Just have the baby at home. Like you can do this. And the midwife that I had at the time was basically like, I don't feel comfortable delivering a breach baby at home. Like, I don't have the training. So I hadn't even made up my mind yet. I was still like in this limbo space of what I was gonna do. And I went into labor. I labored an entire day at home because I could not decide what I wanted to do. And I finally ended up going to the hospital. It was like Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: 9 PM and my husband was had worked all day. So he was so annoyed because I hadn't told him I was in labor and he got home. I was like, I'm in labor. He was like, Are you kidding me? Merelise Wilson: He was like, I was looking forward to sitting down, maybe like popping a beer. Devyn: Literally. He was so annoyed with me because he was like, What why are you like, why haven't you said anything all day? And I was like, because I I couldn't decide what I wanted to do. Like part. Merelise Wilson: So funny. I'm curious, like because you were so hesitant, like was your labor, was it like ramping up? Or I feel like it would probably like keep you from progressing, like 'cause you were like so resistant, you know? Devyn: It was just very slow. Like it wasn't, it wasn't Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: stalling. It was just very slow. Like I knew I was in active Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Devyn: labor, but like I started probably 3 a.m. that morning. And by Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: the time I got to the hospital at 9 p.m., they were like, Yeah, you're about seven centimeters. Like you like, we Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: have to get you back for a C-section right now. And I looked Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: at the nurse and I said, Can I not just deliver the baby? And she goes, Not here. Merelise Wilson: Hm. Can you s Devyn: And of course my husband looks at me. sorry, go ahead. Merelise Wilson: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but maybe you can like when we you can touch on this later, I don't wanna like interrupt the flow of the story, but I'm curious Devyn: Mm-mm. Merelise Wilson: if you can like speak to a little bit about like what they told you the risks were, like why they didn't want to deliver the b the your baby breach. Devyn: Yeah. So they didn't go into many things outside of that it was a liability, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: that it was extremely dangerous. they basically looked at me and said all the things that would terrify me, like my baby could I'm trying to remember the wording they used. It was something along the lines of like the baby could get stuck, if they didn't have someone skilled enough to get help get the baby out. and I had watched like probably two or three births of like vaginal deliveries of breach babies. And so of course Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: I'm like, well, I've seen babies be delivered breach like this, but they kept harping on the fact that I had had two very large babies already. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: they're like, it's even more dangerous because of the size of your baby. And they just kept Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: pushing like the risk of his life. And that was where the fear was coming in Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: for me. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. And do you remember was he was he footling or was he like bottom first? I can't remember what that's called. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Right. Safer. Yeah. Devyn: He was bottom first. Yeah, he was bottom first. Which is actually easier to deliver breach. Yeah. So it's like that was, but of course they weren't telling me that. I didn't know that. They were like, Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: they were like, it's a hard no. Like no one's gonna do it. And I literally remember Merelise Wilson: Ugh gosh. Devyn: looking, I looked at like my husband and I was like, breathing through contractions, mind you. And I looked at my husband and I'm like, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: what would they do if I got here and the baby was just coming out? Cause I was so annoyed. Cause I was like, this is ridiculous. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: Like, so they prepped me for C-section. I've never had a C-section. I'm not scared, but I'm very aware that I am not going to be super present because of how medication affects me. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Mm, mm. Devyn: So I will say, like I my doctor was a beautiful woman who was very gentle with me and she was so amazing at like the surgery process. Like I did I felt slight movements and stuff, but like there was no part where I felt like I was being jerked around or I felt scared, Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: like nothing. And then of course my son comes out and yells. At the top of his lungs and they were like, You just birthed the grown man. Merelise Wilson: how many weeks was he? I meant to ask. Devyn: yeah, almost 39. Merelise Wilson: Okay, so he wasn't even like full term. Devyn: no, I just have massive babies, like huge babies. Merelise Wilson: And how much was he? Devyn: And he was almost 10 pounds. And like all of their heads are huge. Like my kids have these giant heads. I I tell my husband, I'm like, it's your fault. But yeah, so he this is really interesting. So after I had him, I kept having a lot of guilt about having a C section because I was like, I was supposed to have a home birth, I was supposed to do this at home. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Yeah. Devyn: Like I I wasn't having any issues like connecting to my baby or like it was just me. It was like I felt unfulfilled, I felt sad. And this part always gives me goosebumps. So I had a dream like a week after I had him. And I I was I was like in the middle of the ocean and I'm like needing rescue. And it's at night. Okay. And this boat comes out of nowhere, and there's this beautiful blonde man on this boat. And he reaches his arm out to me. And I'm like, I I need help. I need help. And he's like, I know. And he reaches his arm out. And he and I go to reach for his arm. And he goes, I just want you to know that the way we come in and the way we go out don't define the experience. And he pulls me onto the boat. And I was like, What? And I looked him dead in the face and I was like, This is my son. And as Merelise Wilson: As a grand man. Devyn: he's gotten older, he looks so So much like this man. And my son is extremely spiritually elevated. Like he comes to me in dreams all Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: the time to communicate with me. He's also autistic. he is very spiritually adapted. He brings spirits in the house all the time. Like it's so funny. very deeply connected to animals. Like he's a very spiritual soul. and so Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: it was almost like he was trying to tell me it's okay. Like I came in how I came in. It doesn't define the journey. And so I was just like, my gosh. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Right. Yeah. that's beautiful. Devyn: Yeah. And so that was my first three. And so then I thought that Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: I was done having children because my dream was to have many more children. But my husband was like, this is it. We're at capacity. We didn't know that my third son was autistic yet, but it was just one of those things where my husband was really like. He wanted one, I wanted ten, and now we have three. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, it seems like a you know, kind of a happy medium. Devyn: Yeah. So I decided to be a surrogate because I like being pregnant and I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: wanted to help someone else have a baby. So when my Merelise Wilson: It's amazing. You said that so casually. You were like, I decided to be a surrogate. Like, I have so many questions. Like, was your husband like Devyn: Ha ha ha ha. Merelise Wilson: was he like, okay, that's crazy too? Or like was he like, I get it? Like at least like you're scratching the itch, like, and it's not w another one that we have to raise. Or like 'cause Devyn: Yeah. Merelise Wilson: I mean that's a huge decision. Like, I mean, you know, Devyn: I know. Merelise Wilson: you said you like being pregnant, but we were talking about you you touched on this earlier. Pregnancy and birth is not inherently dangerous, but the reality is, like, it is the closest that we You know, we come and there to that like that veil, you know, and there Devyn: Mm-hmm. Merelise Wilson: there is risk with it. There can be. And so I just always think that surrogacy is just such a selfless, selfless thing to do. Devyn: Yeah. I love that question. by this point in the game, my husband knew that he was married to a very unique bird. Merelise Wilson: There's no south in ya. Devyn: And and he tells me, it's so funny, he'll say, I know when you make up your mind that I'm never talking you out of it. He was like, I can tell Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: between when you are ups for negotiation and when your mind is made up and I'm just tagging along for the journey. Merelise Wilson: I wish more husbands would figure that out sooner. Devyn: I know, I know. So yeah, so my son, my third son was like nine months old, and I kept feeling the spirit baby around me, and it was a girl, and she kept kind of telling me, You're the vessel, you're the vessel. And I'm just like, what does that even mean? Like, and I'm just like listening. And then I was ta I went to my OB for a postpartum appointment. And We were talking about our kids and she's like, Yeah, I've had four. She's like, good. And I was my God, you have four kids. That's so beautiful. And she Well, I have three, but I was a surrogate. And I said, Tell me everything. Because I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: had obviously heard about surrogacy, but I had never actually considered doing it. And she was like, Yeah. And she told me the whole process that she went through. And she actually had a baby for a friend. but so she told me like everything that Went into it and the process and how it made her feel and the how the pregnancy was and everything. And I'm just like, I always say when we know something is for us because it lights us up. It doesn't make us feel anxious, like, I need to do this right now. I need to do this right. It's like my soul is on fire thinking about this. Like, that's how it feels. Merelise Wilson: Mm, mm, mm. Devyn: And when she was talking about it, I had that feeling. And I was Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: like, Why am I I just had a baby? Like, what am I even thinking right now? And so I'm gonna talk about Teresa and Sarah for a second because I have been following along with your Zen mama since my oldest was born. Cause they started in like 2013. and so I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Devyn: was like watching Teresa's like pregnancy vlogs and I was reading all the articles. And Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: so I was like thick in the pregnancy world at this point. Cause I'm like, I just Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: had a baby. Like Teresa's daughter Poet and my son Conrad are only two months apart. And so yeah. And so sorry. Merelise Wilson: so cool. I love it. And we should say also, so Teresa and Sarah, when she says Teresa and Sarah, we're talking about for those of us who aren't daisies, like Devyn and I. Teresa Palmer and Sarah Wright Olson. I by the time this episode comes out, they will have also been on the podcast. but they are two wonderful actresses and mommies who have a wonderful podcast that Devyn I love called The Mother Days. And that's how Devyn and I met. But anyways, continue. Devyn: Yeah. Yeah. I actually just did an episode on the Mother Daze I think it's coming out in a couple weeks. I'm not exactly sure. So I'll be on there too. Merelise Wilson: I'm so excited. Devyn: anyway, so I was just really in that mode of like motherhood. I'm raising my children. I love being pregnant, all the things. So I started like toying around with this idea. And so I sat with it for many months. And then I think my third son was around like nine, 10 months. And I went to my husband and I was like, How would you feel if I did surrogacy? And he was like, What do you mean? Like have a baby for somebody else? And I was like, Yeah. And he was like, I mean, if you if you wanted to, he's like, I would support you. He's like, Are you sure? He's like, It's really a lot on your body. And You know, have you looked into Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: it? But he also knows I'm a Capricorn moon, okay, with a Capricorn cellium in my chart. I'm a Pisces sun, but I'm a Capricorn moon. Anything and everything that I can know about something, I'm gonna know. yeah. So anyway, so when it comes to that, I had already done so much research and I had been looking up agencies. I look looked up how to do it like independently. I had been in Facebook groups. Like, I didn't bring it to him until I was like, I know exactly what this looks like and I think I want to do it. So Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: He was pretty much on board. Like there, he had questions, but there wasn't really a part that he was like, No way, what the heck? now my family, on the other hand, like my parents, siblings, they were all like, Wait, what the what? And I'm like, like, my one of my brothers was like appalled. He was like, That is disgusting. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: I was like, What do you mean that's disgusting? He's like, You're gonna have somebody else's baby, like that is so weird. And I was like, I mean, now. They're much more open to it. They saw me go through the experience. And that's one of the most beautiful things about it was seeing all of Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Devyn: them after I had her and like their experience of like, look how happy these people are. This is incredible. What a gift. It completely changed Merelise Wilson: Ya, ja. Devyn: their perspective on surrogacy. So that was really cool. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Merelise Wilson: That's cool. And okay, so question, were you when you were thinking about all this, did you did you know or have an opinion on and if you just wanted to be like a surrogate, like you said a vessel earlier, or if you also Devyn: Mm-hmm. Merelise Wilson: were open to to contributing an egg? Devyn: Yep. I just wanted to be the vessel. And the reason being is because I had decided to be a surrogate through an agency, not for anyone that I knew personally, because I didn't know Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: anyone at the time who was looking for a surrogate. And so for me, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: had it been a friend or family member, I would have been very much willing to give an egg had that been something that was needed. But because of the Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: P the possibility that I was gonna be with someone who was from another state, another country. It was very hard for me to wrap my mind around that I have a biological child that I may not get to see in person. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: even though I would be gifting that child to someone else. I just had at the time, I was like, I don't know if I could do it, especially because I had three sons. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, I get that. Devyn: Yeah, I had three sons and I knew this child was gonna be a girl. I knew it. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: And so I was like, can I make I I couldn't do it. I was like, I'm not there right now. So I've I know it was like, I Merelise Wilson: You're like, I can't give my girl away. Like, yeah. Yeah. Devyn: know that sounds bad, but it wasn't just that. But Merelise Wilson: No. No. Devyn: and so I ended up going with an agency that was local. They were a small business agency because it was gonna be less money for me. but that wasn't my main motivation. I wanted to help families who couldn't afford the bigger agencies. So that Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: was kind of like my thought behind it. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna lose probably $20,000, but I'm also gonna be able to support people who are like normal families who can't afford $200,000 Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: for a surrogate. Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: so I went with this agency. They loved me off the rip. They were like, yes, yes, yes, all the things. Like, and they asked me, they were like, Do you have preferences of who you have a baby for? Like single man, single woman, like Heterosexual couple, gay couple, like, you know, what are your preferences? And I was like, I'm open to any and all. I was like, you know, I don't have a specific preference. And I was open to carrying twins. Like, so when you have a surrogacy profile like mine, you have a lot of parents who are interested because a lot of surrogates have very strict preferences and boundaries. And mine were like free for all. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. And Devyn: So Merelise Wilson: you've had three healthy pregnancies and and deliveries and like how does having a C section impact like your surrogacy profile, if you will? Devyn: Yeah. So you can have up to three cesarean sections before you are disqualified. because three Merelise Wilson: Okay. Okay. Devyn: is considered the healthy number that doesn't cause significant scar tissue and damage. I personally disagree. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: I feel like it should be more highly considered. And the reason being is because there is certain things when we have a cesarean section and then we go through the IVF process as a surrogate. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: That can make things a little more challenging because they're going in and they're looking at your uterus to make sure it's tip-top shape. Well, if you have any underlying Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: scar tissue from things like endometriosis, PCOS, or fibroids, you know, anything like that, or a cesarean section, it does make the process Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: a little more complicated. And so I do think it should be a little more considered because you don't want to waste someone's time. As soon as you're accepted Merelise Wilson: No Devyn: as a surrogate, you are going to these clinics and you're getting all the blood work. They're looking at your uterus like once a week. They're looking at your follicles. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: They're looking at everything because they have to stop your natural body production. So basically you take Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: birth control, which is telling your body I can't get pregnant, but then they implant you with a fertilized egg or eggs, and then they're giving you drugs to tell you I need to get pregnant. So your body's doing two different things at the same time. Yeah. Merelise Wilson: Whoa, that's crazy. Devyn: It's very crazy. Science is wild, let me just tell you. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. I mean, do they and do Devyn: So Merelise Wilson: they give you I had never heard that. Do they give you birth control 'cause they don't want you to get pregnant like naturally with your spouse or a partner or whatever? Devyn: They give you so they give you birth control to delay or like stop your cycle because right, Merelise Wilson: Control your cycle. Okay. Devyn: because you don't have a cycle unless you ovulate. And if you do have the cycle without ovulating, it's not technically a cycle. It's just like extra blood that the uterus needed to get rid of. So Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: you cannot ovulate leading up to this process. So the the birth control controls and regulates your cycle and it stops your ovulation. So that's like step one. Merelise Wilson: Okay. Got it. I'm tracking. Devyn: And then like, yeah. So then you get like this calendar and it's like, this is when you take this medicine, this is when you take this shot. This is when you this, you have a very short window of time to do your egg transfer. And then you basically wait. It's not quite two weeks, but you have the two week wait like usual to find out if you're pregnant or not. so I will I'll give just a little bit of the backstory. So I got matched with a gay couple in Spain. and I let spirit lead me. I was just like, You're gonna give me the right profile. So Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: they sent me my potential parents, which is the intended parents. So they call them IPs. and they as soon as I saw their picture, I was like on my way to Disney World with my kids. And I got their picture and I showed it to my husband and I was like, these are the dads. Merelise Wilson: That's so cute. Devyn: And he was like, he was like, wow, they look great. And I'm just like, I was like, he's a musician, he's a lawyer. Like I'm telling him everything about them from the profile. And he's like, Love it, great. Merelise Wilson: That's so cute. I love it. Devyn: It was so sweet. And then, like, I remember we got to Disney World and I had told them I accepted the profile. And I was walking around Disney with my kids with my husband. And I was like, maybe they're gonna bring their baby to Disney one day. And my husband's like, We just got the profile. Like, let's like get to the next steps. Yes. Merelise Wilson: You're like jumping ahead like years. You're not even pregnant yet. Devyn: I know. So, well, and I also felt this child so strongly. Like, I knew she was going to come in. I Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: just didn't know exactly what the process was gonna look like. Well, I also want to share that this was during this all happened right during the pandemic. So my first transfer was scheduled for like April 2020, and everything Merelise Wilson: my god. Devyn: shut down. Yeah. So I didn't have the transfer. I was devastated. The parents were devastated because they had had a surrogate Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: before me who fell through and they had wasted like a year's worth of time and money with the surrogate. And so they were like, we're never gonna have this baby. They had been together like 11 years at this point and they had been wanting a baby for like six years. So yeah, so that was really hard on everybody. But I just kept talking to this baby and I was like, you're gonna come in when it's right for you. I feel it. Everything's gonna be great. Well the dads really, really wanted twins because they wanted to each have a baby. So the way that Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: works is they have the same egg donor, and then one dad fertilizes one egg and one dad fertilizes the other egg. So they're twins, but they're Merelise Wilson: Clear. Devyn: only genetically twins through the mother, which is crazy. Merelise Wilson: Whoa. Devyn: right. So we transferred twins in June of 2020, and I had I got pregnant, everything looked great, everything was going wonderful, and I was heading to my first ultrasound and I had a blighted ovum and I had never even heard of that. I didn't know what it was. Merelise Wilson: Mm, mm. Devyn: This spirit babies had not said anything to me. I hadn't felt anything off. So I was like shocked at this point. Like I'm just like, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: what is happening? And I was so devastated for the dads. Like I just could not believe that this was happening. Cause I'd never had any, I'd never even had a pregnancy loss at this point that Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: had like affected me personally in this capacity. within my I had had a pregnancy loss, but like it wasn't in the span of like with my husband over these years. It was from like my teenage years. So anyway. So I was very much confused. And so I'm like emotionally, I'm feeling the sadness for the parents. I'm feeling like what's Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: c happening. So we go through the whole process of you know, a DNC because I by the time they found out that I had a blighted ovum, I was almost 10 weeks pregnant, technically. Yeah, because they didn't Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. my god. And can you tell everyone what a blighted ovum is? Devyn: absolutely. So and I actually just experienced this with a client. And so I was Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: really glad that I had this knowledge because they weren't sure if that's what it was. And so I was like, just in case this is what it is, I want to tell you what it is and what's gonna happen. So A blighted ovum is when the egg essentially implants, but there's no fetal pull. The baby doesn't continue to grow. So it is more common in pregnancies that are using fertility drugs for support because the fertility drugs are sustaining the pregnancy. So the body Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: thinks that it's pregnant. The egg has implanted, everything is continuing to grow and develop, but there's no fetal pole. So there's no baby inside of the sack. There's no heartbeat. Like it's literally like an empty sack. it is pretty rare, but it does happen. And so on the spiritual side, I've had people ask me, well, why does this happen? What does this mean? The thing is the body and spirit work in tandem, but sometimes the body just does things that spirit has no control over. And So there's elements of like spirit babies trying to come through, something like that happening, and the spirit baby going, Okay, well, I'm gonna take the next opportunity. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: and so that's an what essentially happened with this pregnancy. And so I ended up having to have a DNC because of how far it was. I had never had any experience like this before. It Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: was wild, and it was all during the pandemic. So when I did start and And trigger trigger warning for I'm gonna talk a little bit about the pregnancy loss if that's okay. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, please. Devyn: during this pandemic, you know, you couldn't just go to the emergency room. So when I started Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: miscarrying and I was bleeding a lot, I was like passing out. And my husband calls the emergency room and is like, I need to bring my wife up there. And they're like, you can leave her at the door. And he was like, she's passing out. Like he's like, she's got so much blood loss. Like I cannot just leave her at the door. And they're like, you Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: can call an ambulance. And so my husband's like, Do you want me to call an ambulance? And I was like, No, I don't want to go to the hospital right now. Like I was worried about, you know, getting my kids sick or like, you know, it was just all Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: in the what's happening, right? So I end up Merelise Wilson: Right. COVID was like it was so unknown and scary and yeah. Devyn: Yeah, it was so and I just felt like my body is like purging all of this. So like there's not much they can do outside of monitoring blood loss. Like that's pretty much what was gonna happen. So Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Devyn: I and my at the time, my brother, both of my brothers are EMTs, paramedic, firemen. And so at the time I called Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: my middle brother and I was like, My my husband got on the phone with him. He's like, Is she like, is she gonna die? Like, what and he was like It does she have her Apple watch on because they we didn't have Oura rings back then. Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: so my husband was like tracking my heart rate with my Oura with my Apple watch and like so it wasn't like I was just like willy-nilly not being careful with it. But while it was happening, I did have like I was going in and out of consciousness. So I was sleeping a lot and I did end up having a dream where the spirit baby came through to me and they were like, everything's gonna be okay. I'm gonna come back in, like take care of your body, like take care of you. And so I told the dads like what was going on. And of course they were worried about me, but they were of course eager to get pregnant. So they were like, we don't want to pressure you, like when let us know when you're feeling better. And this is the part about surrogacy that can be a little tricky is sometimes once you get matched and you start working with your intended parents, agencies aren't super supportive or like present. So They're not always like checking in on you or like, hey, how are you doing? We found out this happened, or you know, it's Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: all very like, we saw this happen. So billing stops because now you're not pregnant. And Merelise Wilson: Mm, very transactional. Devyn: very transactional. And so that's my one Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: thing I would say is there are agencies that are not like that. I recently talked to an agency, I think they're called Aspen Surrogacy. Incredible, naturally minded, super caring about their women. And there are agencies like that. And there are situations where you go private and it's like that and it's beautiful. This experience was just really tricky because my intended parents were in Spain and it Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: was during the pandemic. So like there was just a lot of restriction and on and on. So yeah. Merelise Wilson: Wait, this is this is like a technical question. Did they have to like ship their sperm? How did like Devyn: Yeah, so their mm-hmm. So their their fertility clinic was in Idaho because they picked like a top fertility clinic. It was in Idaho. So I had to fly to Idaho for my transfers. Yeah, which was actually really cool because I had never been and it was in Boise. So it was like super cool town. so Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: I actually got like a little three-day vacation paid because I got to like go get a transfer Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: and then just like chill in a hotel and order room service. Merelise Wilson: I love it. Devyn: It would be great. so that all happened. So they want you to wait until and this is anytime you have a pregnancy loss, that they want you to wait until HCV is zero before you can Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: like try to do anything else, unless you just get pregnant naturally on your own. But if you're going through like fertility treatments, so they were like, everything has to be zero. We recommend waiting at least eight weeks. And I just kept hearing Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: November, November, November. And so I was like this Merelise Wilson: And this was June that this happened? Devyn: was it all ended up going down in July because I got I had the transfer early June. Yeah, I had the trans so Merelise Wilson: July, okay. Okay. Devyn: I love Harry Potter. So I always remember that I had my Merelise Wilson: With her. Devyn: DNC. Yeah, I had my DNC on Harry Potter's birthday. I was like going into the hospital and I was like, I was like, it's Harry Potter's birthday. And my husband was like, Okay. Merelise Wilson: I love it so much. my god. Devyn: Yeah, it was funny. so anyway, so I got everything leveled out. It was like October, and they were like, Great, you're back on the machine. Let's do it. So I was like, good, we're good to go. We're getting pregnant, we're having babies, like it's gone, it's locked and loaded. So I did end up successfully getting pregnant. I did not get pregnant with twins. I got pregnant with one baby. So the dads were a little disappointed just because they really wanted to, but they were so stoked to be having a baby. healthy heartbeat, everything looked great. I did end up getting earlier ultrasounds and a little bit more monitoring in the beginning just because they missed it. Cause I didn't get an ultrasound until like nine weeks. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: because the OBs can't get you in, and my fertility clinic was in Idaho, and they were like, your blood work looks great. We'll just wait. So Merelise Wilson: You've had three healthy pregnancies, yeah. Devyn: right. Yep. So I did end up going to like Earlier ultrasounds, like my very first ultrasound was like six weeks on the dot. So Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: I had a couple in the first trimester, which I am not a big ultrasound person. I do not love like the exposure to the fetus, the things that Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: it can do to your body. But when you're a surrogate, the one thing I will say is your body is your body, but it is also not your own during surrogacy because you are making decisions Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: that are best for you, but you're also making decisions for someone else's child. So there's a limit Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: between what you can say yes and no to. And I did experience that a couple of times throughout that journey. They wanted me to get the COVID shot. And I said, absolutely not. Because Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: is this gonna hurt your baby? There's not any research. And I felt strongly Merelise Wilson: Right. Right. Devyn: that that was a no. They were not happy about that. But that was one of those things I was not budging on. But then there were things like we want more ultrasounds. We want, you know, take this Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: supplement. Whatever that I was like, okay, a hundred percent I will do what makes you feel better. Merelise Wilson: I can't imagine like how complex that was during to be a surrogate during COVID. Like, cause there's the the shot question. And then there's also just like, I remember I had, I was pregnant during COVID with my first and I got COVID. And I we didn't know Devyn: Yeah. Merelise Wilson: how it was gonna affect. And so, like, were they like, you can't leave your house or like, you know, like trying to impose any like restrictions on you? Like, you know. Devyn: Yeah, it was it was interesting because I had to travel to the IVF clinic. So Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: like I had I could only bring one person with me. My kids were not allowed to come. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: and I had to wear a mask from like sun up to sundown. Like it was so Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: uncomfortable. for the whole first trimester, they were very funny about where I went and what I was doing. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: And my kids were home because the pandemic had shut school down. My youngest was not even two. My older two were we were homeschooling, which was a nut so experience in itself, but like Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: whatever. because I have a special education degree, but trying to homeschool your own children is like, I mean, we've all experienced it at this point. I'm homeschooling right now and we're we're unschooling because when we were trying to like traditionally homeschool, I was ready to pull my hair out. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: So, anyway, also the new paradigm, nobody's gonna need typical traditional schooling anymore. Everybody's gonna be doing things by hand trade because AI is gonna do everything. I know. So, I know. Merelise Wilson: God, that's so depressing. But anyways that's a whole nother podcast episode. Devyn: So, so yeah, so with that, my kids were being homeschooled. I had my little one at home, and so the only thing we were living in Peachtree City at the time. So, if you're in Georgia, Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: you know it's the golf cart community. So the only thing Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: I was really doing is getting out on the golf cart with my kids and like getting fresh air because they didn't want me going to grocery stores. Luckily, they would pay for like grocery subscription and things like that because they're like, we'll do what we need to do to make sure you don't get sick. they didn't like my kids going a lot of places. Like my kids had therapy at the time. So they were like, if you can do virtual. Like, and they were kind of going with the guidelines of what everybody else was going along with, but in some ways it was very isolating. And at the time, my husband worked for UPS. So he would get home from like because they got busier during the pandemic. So he would leave Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: at like 7:30, 8 in the morning. He wouldn't get home till like 11 o'clock at night. And he would have to like, I would make him like change his clothes outside, like take his shoes off. And I would just be like, go Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: straight to the shower. Like It was brutal. It was so hard. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: but that is not the typical experience. This was a very Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: unique situation. Like most surrogates, I know surrogates now, and they're like, I live my typical life. Like, I don't have any issues. Like, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: so don't think that's gonna be your experience. I always recommend surrogacy if it's something your heart speaks to. her birth, I'll just kind of hit on really quick. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: I wanted a V back and Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: my doctor, I had to go through a doctor that I didn't pick or had never used because I had to use the insurance that the parents got for me. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: and so I wasn't able to use like a previous doctor that I had had because they didn't take the insurance. They were a hundred percent no on home birth. It was like absolutely not. So I was like, that's all fine Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: and dandy, but I'm gonna choose the preferences that I want within the sphere that I can. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: That did not happen. so I ended up with A doctor who was not a fan of VBACs and Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: was very much like VBACs are extremely dangerous. La la la la la. You can have a uterine rupture. I know Claire touched on this on her episode, so I won't Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: touch on it again, but the statistics are very low. but the doctor basically told my surrogacy agency because what would happen is every appointment, they would send all the notes from the appointment to the agency, and then the agency would send them to the IPs. Cause if the parents can't go to the appointment, they're they get all of the documents and everything. And so in the notes, the doctor was like, I don't recommend VBAC. It's extremely dangerous. Here's why. So now you've got two dads who are in another country who do not have a woman's body, who do not understand the process Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: of birth. Like when they found out the due date, they booked their flight for the day before the due date. They were like, that's when the baby comes. I was like, That's not how it works, guys. Merelise Wilson: so cute. Devyn: and she and she yeah, she did not. She came like three weeks early. So we'll talk about that. Merelise Wilson: wow. Devyn: yeah, so which actually is very common with IVF pregnancies. Babies often come early with IVF pregnancies, especially girls. I don't know why. That is the statistics though. Merelise Wilson: Interesting. Okay. Devyn: so yeah, it's really interesting. So anyway, so I pushed this doctor every week. I'm like, I can have a VBAC, I can have a natural birth. Baby's head down, baby stayed head down. Baby was in the perfect position. And this wasn't my typical baby. This baby was not huge. I mean, she Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: was not a big baby. Like she was going off of like her her dads are like my size. So yeah, they're Merelise Wilson: wow. So you're like, this is gonna be easy peasy. Devyn: easy peasy. I'm like, guys, I can do this. I can do this. So Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: when I did finally go into labor with her, it was almost three weeks early. And I Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: I had told them for two weeks. I was like, I'm telling you, this baby is coming early. I was like, whether you believe in my abilities or not, this baby's coming early. You need to book Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: your flight. Because also, because it was during the pandemic, they had to get permission from the Spanish and US Embassy to come and get this baby. Yeah. Yeah. Merelise Wilson: Crazy. Like so many hoops to jump through. Devyn: So crazy. So they didn't get permission until three days before I went into labor. Yeah. So I went into labor. Merelise Wilson: So like there's a chance that you could have had a baby and then like and then like been like had to take her home with you. Devyn: No, so if you go through an agency, they have what's called a Merelise Wilson: Okay. Devyn: I cannot remember the term they use, but basically they have like a surrogate parent. So it's someone that the intended Merelise Wilson: okay. Devyn: parents choose who takes the baby until they can get there. Cause legally the surrogate is not allowed to take the baby because they're scared of you bonding. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, okay, that makes sense. Devyn: Yeah. Merelise Wilson: Okay. Devyn: I wasn't even allowed to hold her after she was born until the dad told her. Yeah. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Devyn: My husband, my husband got to hold her, but I wasn't allowed to hold her. Yeah. So anyway, Merelise Wilson: That's crazy. Devyn: it was so crazy. so they did end up getting approved and they were on their flight to the US when I when I had her. so they missed it. But my husband like recorded everything. He was texting them and like keeping them up. To date the whole time. and so Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: he was he was a champ because he was like, I wouldn't want to miss this. I know how important this is. So, but they would not let me have a V back. I got there in labor. I was like, I'm ready, let's do this, baby's head down. And they were like, Your file says no. The parents said no. We have to honor the parents. And the parents were like, We're not going against the doctor at all. They were like, We don't care Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Devyn: what you say, we don't care how many babies you've had. Like, we don't want Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: anything happening to this baby. And I was just so frustrated. Yeah, I totally Merelise Wilson: I get that. Yeah. Devyn: understood, but I was so frustrated because I'm like, this would be like a five hour labor. She was like seven pounds. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. You were like I could like then like boom, like this will be done so quick. Devyn: I can sneeze this baby out. Merelise Wilson: Ha ha Devyn: so yeah, that was not that was not my preference of how it went. but I had to be respectful of the parents and their wishes. So I did end Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: up going that route. and so I thought that was my last baby. I was like, okay, I'm done. This is this is it. I've I've had all my babies. And that Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: broke my heart. I was like, I felt these other babies around me and like I always knew I was Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: gonna have a daughter. And I felt her and I was like telling my husband, and he was just like, Devyn, like give your body a rest. Like, like give it a rest. And I was like, okay, okay. So I was focusing on my kids, focusing on me, like all the things. And I this was when I started really doing my spirit baby work and like really starting Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: to work on this before I started working with Emily. And Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: I was communicating with my daughter. Every single day, every single day. Like she Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: was come, she was like, I'm gonna come in. Like, but you have to say yes. Your like dad has to say yes. This has to be a mutual agreement. The the contract has Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: like it wasn't gonna be a surprise. Oops, like this was very much like a consensual, yes, this baby is coming in. So I did a lot of work around it, a lot of magical stuff, a lot of all the things. And then finally, my husband one day we were talking about it, and I was like, I can't believe like we're not gonna have a little girl after we had Maria. And he was like, I know. He's like, Maybe we should try one more time. And I was like Merelise Wilson: Ha ha ha Devyn: Yes, absolutely. And I was like, yes, we're gonna have a girl. It's our daughter's coming in a hundred percent. Merelise Wilson: You're like, that's all I need. All I need. One one try. Devyn: I was ready to try like that second. I was like, let's go. And he's like, Hold up, whoa. He was like, pop the brakes. Ever said, Yeah. Merelise Wilson: You're like, that's the hottest thing you've ever said to me, babe. That's the hottest thing you've ever said. Devyn: And he was just like, Hold on, whoa. Like I said we could try. I didn't say today. Like, and so we we ended up like Kind of sitting with it for a few weeks and then like we started trying and I was like, I felt her so close. I was like, this isn't gonna take a too long. It did take a couple of months, longer than like I'd ever really experienced before. it felt like she was very intentional. Like she was like, I have a specific time I want to come in, I have a very specific way I want to come in. And did end up finding out I was pregnant with her. I was like, it's her, it's our girl. my gosh. Our gender reveals told us we were having a boy. I was like, no, this is a girl. I know it's a girl. My husband is devastated. He's like, this was supposed to be our girl. Like, what? I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Devyn: am so, it was a blood test. And so I was like, Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: I'm telling you, this is a girl. And my husband's like, It's not a girl. It's a boy. Like the blood test, it's XY. And we went Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: two and a half months because I didn't get any ultrasounds, because I was like, I'm having a home birth. I had a home birth midwife. I was getting no Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: ultrasounds. Like all I was doing was checking the heartbeat. So I hadn't had any ultrasounds. I had this beautiful home birth midwife. She was like, I can do VBAC. I can do breach. I can do all the things. I was like, this is happening. It's my girl. We're having Merelise Wilson: Yes. Devyn: a home birth. We're having a water birth. It's all happening. And so I ended up booking an ultrasound. It was almost 20 weeks. And I just wanted to like check on everything. And it was gonna be me and my husband. We go. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: And they're like, this is 110% a girl. I'm like screaming. I'm like, Merelise Wilson: You were like, I told you people. Devyn: I am like full screen. Like my husband starts crying. He's so excited. And she was the first grand she was the first granddaughter. There hadn't been a girl born since me. And my brother has, Merelise Wilson: my gosh. Devyn: yeah, my brother has three boys. So she was the first girl. So of course everybody is like crying, so excited. And so I was like, yes, it's all happening. This is gonna be my home birth baby. And so I went through, I started reading all the books. I started my dual training. I was like, this is happening. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: Six months pregnant. We had a bunch of really horrific stuff happen with our boys with school and the state of Georgia. And we're like, we're done. And we packed up our life and we moved. To Colorado while I was almost seven Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: months pregnant with my daughter. Because of that, I couldn't bring my midwife with me, obviously. So she is like calling around in Colorado. She's like, Colorado's a great state. There's lots of home birth options. Da-da-da-da. It is, however, I I I don't want to misquote, but I think it's illegal to have a home birth in the state of Colorado VBAC After more than one C-section. I don't know for certain, Merelise Wilson: Okay. Devyn: but I remember having a lot of pushback with midwives and doctors. So the one Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Devyn: thing I will say is I did not listen to my intuition because I was so determined to have a home birth that I didn't Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: do enough research on midwives in the area. And so I ended up going with a dual la. And someone who said they were a midwife but really didn't have the training that they needed to have to do Merelise Wilson: Mm, mm. Devyn: a home birth VBAC delivery. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: and a week before I went into labor, I found out she was breached. And I was like, I don't have a doctor here. Like, and I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: called around to a couple of doctors' offices and no one would take me that late in my pregnancy. Like, people were like, this is a liability. Merelise Wilson: So crazy. Devyn: I had never even heard of that. They were like, yeah, you're almost gonna have a baby, you're breach, you want to V back. Like, no, absolutely not. I was like, what if I compromise Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: on, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was having such a hard time having finding a care provider and I started to like panic. Merelise Wilson: A wild. Yeah. Devyn: So then I like really sat with myself and I was like, I can do this by myself. I can do this. I like it's gonna be fine. We solve moving boxes everywhere. We're in a completely new space. We don't know anybody, but I can do this. I got it. And and I Merelise Wilson: I love the positivity. Devyn: I know. Well, I kept talking to my daughter and she was just like, I wanna be born at home. Like she was like really adamant about like being born at home, but She felt like everything about her was like going to be on her time. And she was my longest, hardest labor. I was in labor with her for 26 hours. And it was a V back. She was breach. And so it took forever for her to come down. and I did go into labor on my own. I was almost 39 weeks. and the hardest part about it was one, I was having very intense back labor, which was really hard Merelise Wilson: Is that Devyn: And VBACs in general take much longer because your body's Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: navigating scar tissue, your body's navigating like a different terrain than it did pre-Caesarean. so it just takes Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Devyn: a lot longer for like baby to get down and stuff. And so I remember the whole time I just kept telling myself, I was like, you want this spiritual experience with your daughter? I was like working in tandem with her. I just kept like being like, we can do this, like talking to her, like, and I I remember like around hour like 20, I was like, I don't know if I can keep doing this because I had been awake the whole time. I was like so depleted. And I was, it was like, I don't know, midnight or something. And I'm just like, I I was in too much pain to sleep. So it wasn't even where I could like get Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: rests in between because it was like the contractions were coming on so consistently, but they were so painful that I needed a lot of counter pressure on my back, which is when someone like squeezes your hips and lower back. and Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: like my husband was like using all of his strength because I would be like, squeeze harder, squeeze harder. Cause it was the contractions were so big. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: and so I just remember the whole process was like. I mean, she was like, You're gonna work for me. Let me just tell you. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Yeah. Devyn: but when she did finally come out, she came out in the weirdest, she was like knee and elbow first, like bent in like a Merelise Wilson: So not even like bottom first. Devyn: no, she was like in this weird sideways position. Like Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: it was the weirdest thing. Like the I ended up birthing her. And like anyone listening is probably gonna be like, what in the world? I ended up birthing her in the bathroom because the only way that I could do it was like in a squat position. And so I was like Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: using the toilet for leverage. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: so like I had my doula and midwife, I wouldn't consider her a midwife, but other Merelise Wilson: Right, supposed midwife, yeah. Devyn: doula catch her. And like I the only way I could sit down was like on the toilet because my tailbone was so sore from all of the back labor. Merelise Wilson: Uh-huh. Yeah. Devyn: And so that that was one of those things where it was a very beautiful birth experience because we worked so hard together to get her in. I did it. She Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: was healthy. Everything was like this beautiful experience. But I was so depleted. Like I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: was like, my I was bleeding after a lot. My body was struggling Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: to heal. I was like in and out of it. Like I don't even very much remember like the last couple hours after she was born. I don't even remember birthing the placenta. Like it was one of those things where my body Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: was like, we have nothing left to give. And yeah, Merelise Wilson: Yeah, understandably. Devyn: and it was so not the vision that I had had. And I was in this new place. None of my family was around. None of my friends were around. And so it was just really Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: hard to be like, Whoa, this was the thing I wanted. This was the dream. And like I have this beautiful Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: little girl and I'm so excited and I'm looking at her and she's so perfect. But also, what the hell just happened to me? Merelise Wilson: Right, right. It was like you got I remember Devyn: Yeah. And I Merelise Wilson: having this feeling I'm sorry. I was Devyn: No, you're good. Merelise Wilson: gonna say I remember having this feeling with my son. Like I on paper I got the birth I wanted. I gave birth in the hospital without an epidural, like as naturally as possible in the hospital. But it was such a slog to get there that I was like, Devyn: Mm-hmm. Merelise Wilson: on paper I got what I wanted, but like emotionally it didn't it didn't feel that way, you know. Devyn: Yep. That's exactly what happened to me. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: that was actually the experience that opened up my spiritual abilities even deeper because I think Merelise Wilson: Mm Devyn: I came extremely close to the other side on that birth Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: experience because of how many times I thought I was gonna give up. I thought I was gonna Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: like my body was gonna give out, or I was gonna just be like, I can't do this. I can't do this. And I always tell my clients. There's a old, I can't remember which mythology it is, but there's an old story and mythology of like the woman's soul leaving her body during transition and going and getting her baby and bringing the baby, Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: holding their hand and bringing the baby back with them. And I know. And Merelise Wilson: That's such a beautiful like image. Devyn: I always tell my clients that because I'm like, when you're in that moment in transition. When you feel like you can't do anymore, you feel like you can't give anymore, and you're just at the brink. And it's like the surrender, which is so hard when you're like in pain and Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: when you're going through this like situation where you're like, I don't know what's gonna happen. I don't know how this is gonna turn out. It's the sur like it it was the only thing that kept me going because I just kept being like, I am go I just I'm going to get this little girl and I'm gonna bring her back with me. And Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: that's One of the things my a lot of my clients were like, I h I held on to that in that moment. Because Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: it's also the moment that the maiden dies and the mother is born. It's the moment Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: that this version of mother dies and this new version of mother is born. And whether you get have an epidural birth, you know, have a unmedicated in the hospital, have a cesarean, have a home birth, whatever it is, like. You're still going through a transition and you're getting your baby and you're bringing them back. And the Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Devyn: soul, because like our mother is, and I and I say this as someone who was a surrogate for two dads, whether or not it's your mother that births you, your mother that raises you, your mother that gives you life through their egg, whatever it is, your mother is your link. The mitochondrial DNA is the DNA that's passed through the generations. Nothing from the father. Merelise Wilson: Right. Right. Devyn: The mother is the generational DNA. Your mother is the link to the physical. So of course she has to come and get you. You know what mean? It's like she's the strength. Uh-huh. I know. It's it helps Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. that's so beautiful. my gosh. Yes. That's Devyn: a lot. Merelise Wilson: It's so beautiful. It's just amazing. Devyn: my I really, really feel like my body was so depleted. And I that it was the reason that in my most recent pregnancy, I focused so heavily on nourishment and iron. because Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: with my daughter, I feel like I was focusing on this nourishment to an extent, but I was also going through a lot of transitions in my life. And so there Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: was a lot of stuff where I was like dropping the ball because I was like, I forgot to eat lunch. I'll just drink a protein shake. Or like I'm not getting this beautiful, fulfilling, nourishing meal. And I'm not making Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: sure like my iron levels are super stored before I deliver this baby. And then I'm depleted and I'm having some extra bleeding. And so instead of my body being like, we got this. We can like regenerate. My body was like, I mean, I looked like, I literally looked like death. For like two weeks after I had my daughter because I just was so depleted and I had had blood loss and I had been just through it. And I don't say that to scare anyone. I'd I always encourage home birth if it's something that you want. And as an the one thing I say is really, really know who your birth team is because that is something Merelise Wilson: Mm, mm. Devyn: that I I knew my birth team before in Georgia and I felt very confident with but when we moved I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: did not have that ex same experience and always make sure that you're listening to your body and you're listening to your baby because if something doesn't feel right for you it probably isn't and don't listen to the fear because birth Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: workers who are in this because they love it because they want to help bring babies in they're gonna educate you but they're also going to help you navigate through the fear. A lot of the medical system, unfortunately, they're gonna fear monger. They're gonna be like, if you don't do this, your baby's gonna die. If you don't do this, you're gonna die. Because the Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: birth industry is one of the number one ways they make money, unfortunately. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. The business of being born. Devyn: literally. So, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: yeah, so that is one thing I'll say is like I ended up, my husband scheduled a vasectomy and My daughter was like nine months, I guess. And he postponed it because we decided to go on a trip. Well, I got pregnant on the trip. So I had a surprise, Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: a surprise baby. And I found out I was pregnant. My husband was like, what? He he was so beyond. He was Merelise Wilson: Another one Devyn: so beyond. He was like, I I'm appalled. Like, what do you mean we're having of course we love this child. We adore him. He is an angel baby. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: But it was just that moment of like, I wanted one kid. And well, and he Merelise Wilson: And now I have five. Devyn: was still a little bit like traumatized from my daughter's birth because he had never Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: experienced a birth like that with me before. And he was really worried about me. He was like, I just had never seen you like that before. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Devyn: he was like, You were like in your power and you were like, you know, doing all the things, but also like you were in a lot of pain. He was like, and it was really hard for me to watch you be in pain like that for that long. Yeah. Sure. Merelise Wilson: Hm. Yeah, that's understandable. And then I have a quick question on her birth. Did you, because of the way she came out, did you like, did you tear or like was there any like I Devyn: Yeah, I Merelise Wilson: guess, yeah. Devyn: I had a very slight tear that healed on its own. Merelise Wilson: That's amazing. Devyn: and I think it's just because I've had so many babies and Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: also I've always followed one, I think genetics play a role. I do, I think genetics play a role. but I do Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: always follow like all of the like perineal massage and like prep leading up to birth. So like that's one of the Merelise Wilson: Mm, mm. Devyn: reasons I do talk about that with my clients when I'm working with a duola client. I'm like, get in there, girl. like massage, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: like get your husband in there. Like use coconut oil or olive oil or whatever feels good for you oil wise. That's like like don't leave out on the caring for your lady. Okay. 'Cause she's she's taken the hit. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. You won't regret it. She's working hard. Devyn: Girl is working hard. So yeah, I do think that played a role in it because I did have a very slight tear, but it did heal on its own, which was obviously incredible. I also Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: think that what another factor was that my labor took so long. My body was literally like, Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: if we are doing this, we're doing it the right way. And the fast way is not the right way. Merelise Wilson: Right. It was like inch by inch. Yeah. Devyn: Yeah. Literally. And I just I want to hold space because I feel like that sounds like a scary home birth feedback story. And and I had I had a home birth after that with my son. And it was beautiful and fast and almost pain free and no issues. And my midwife was amazing. And he like Came into the world so quickly and there were no problems. And he did come out en caul like in the sack, which was really cool. Uh-huh. Merelise Wilson: What? Wait, that's so cool. This is like one of my bucket lists. I was just thinking the other day, Devyn: Yeah. Merelise Wilson: like I was editing a different podcast episode, and was like, God, I forgot. Like, I really want to talk to someone who's had a baby on call in call. Like, I've I've I kind of also Devyn: Yes. Merelise Wilson: like have always wanted to. I think it's so cool. So I think a lot of people don't know what this is. It's so and it's like Devyn: It was so cool. Yep. Merelise Wilson: they're supposed to be like extra kind of like magical, blessed like babies, right? Yeah. like of course you had an on-call baby. In call baby. I love it. Devyn: Uh-huh. Highly psychic. Highly psychic. Yeah. and he is so Plutonian. Like he has Pluto on his ascendant, which I don't love, but he has Pluto on his ascendant. Like he literally came like, and it's so funny because I always tell everyone, all my kids are witches. But my daughter woke up like 10 minutes before he came out and just started screaming. Merelise Wilson: Well Devyn: And she never. Did that at the time. Like she was a solid sleeper. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: and she, it was funny because whenever I have a baby, we get we get all of our kids to either write down a number or pick a number that they think is when the baby's gonna come. And my Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: daughter was not even two, like, but we put Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: all the numbers out and she grabbed 13. And my son was born on the 13th. Merelise Wilson: Wild, wild, my gosh. Okay, so Devyn: Yeah. And I and I don't I don't believe in coincidences, so Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. my God. That's so cool. Okay. So so what was his what was it like leading up to his birth? Like you knew you wanted to have another home Devyn: Yeah. Merelise Wilson: birth. Devyn: yeah. my husband was a little nervous. I did go with an OBGYN until 30 weeks. Merelise Wilson: Okay. Devyn: but I also I also had a midwife. So I did the same Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: sort of thing I did with my third son. And I basically was working with my midwife in tandem with my OB. And I was Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: very clear with my OB from the beginning. I was like, I want a home birth. I don't want to do all these ultrasounds. I don't want to do all these tests. They weren't super happy about it, but they weren't, they also. Here's the thing that a lot of people don't realize. You are allowed to say no to everything. You are allowed to advocate for yourself. They can tell you all day you have to do this, blah, blah, blah, blah. You do not have to do anything. So a lot of people don't realize that. And yes, your doctor can turn Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: you away if you refuse something, but that's their personal preference. Like it's not because Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: legally you have to do it. So I just want to say that because I tell all my clients that. They're like, what do you mean I don't have to get the glucose test? I'm like, you don't have to. Like Merelise Wilson: Right. Yeah. I mean you you're accepting Devyn: so yeah. Merelise Wilson: like, you know, yeah, you're accepting like the, you know, I guess Devyn: Consequence. Merelise Wilson: what's the consequence, yeah, but you don't have to do any of that. Yeah. Yeah. Devyn: Yeah. Right. It's called I call it, it's from I got this from the Born Free method. It's called radical acceptance of our actions. Merelise Wilson: Mm, mm. Devyn: So it's like I'm radically accepting the consequences of my actions, but I'm also able to make my decisions confidently and intuitively knowing what is right for me and my baby without someone's fear making me fearful of my choices. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Devyn: so yeah. So with my son, with my youngest son, I was like, you know what? I'm listening to this kid. He was like, I'm being born at home. It's gonna be quick. You're not even gonna make it to the hospital. And he was like, Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: just go ahead and do whatever you think you're gonna do. But at the end of the day, this is what it's gonna be. So I found this midwife who I was so aligned with. She was trained in breach, V back. You know, she had the stuff she that you need if like you have bleeding. She had everything. I felt super safe with her. I was my own doula. I didn't get a doula this time because I Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: had the doula training. So I was like, I'm my doula. I've got Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: this. and I probably around 30 weeks started prepping for my home birth just because I was like, I'm ready when this baby's ready, but I'm not in a hurry. And Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Devyn: I was so at peace with all of my choices with this pregnancy. And that was what was so profound to me this was my first pregnancy. Where every single decision I had made, I felt complete peace around it. Because it was like, I've done all the other things. Okay. I've done it all. And I'm like, I am doing the thing that feels the best, feels the easiest, feels the most aligned. And I have no fear. And I kept thinking back to my daughter's birth and I was like, I can do hard, hard, hard things. Like, I got this. So Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: and I I really focused that entire pregnancy on nourishment and my iron levels being really good because of like my history with like some of the blood stuff that I had had. and really just working in tandem with my baby through spirit, deeper than I had with any of my other kids, just really being present to this child and being like. Tuning out all the other noise, being like, you know what? Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: Like everything else doesn't matter. Like if something feels good, I'm doing it. If something doesn't feel good, I'm not doing it. And I went with that the whole time. And he ended up coming like not even four days before his due date. I went into labor naturally. I was in labor for not even four hours. He shot out like a bottle rocket. I was like, I tried to catch him and he was in the sack. And he slipped, he slipped through my hands like a jellyfish. It was like whoop. I was like, my gosh, luckily I was in like the birth pool. Merelise Wilson: I was gonna say, were you in water? Yeah. Devyn: well, and I was I was squatting, so I wasn't in the water all the way. So I saw Merelise Wilson: Uh-huh. Okay. Devyn: him come out in the sack and then he goes into the water. And then when I picked him up, it had busted from like going into the water. But yeah, he came out. It was crazy. It was I know. It was like birthing a jellyfish. Merelise Wilson: That is so cool. my gosh. I And I guess we should say for people too who don't know, en caul means you're born in your amniotic sac, like with the fluid and everything intact, like a little like they used Devyn: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Merelise Wilson: to call them like mermaid babies, right? Devyn: It was crazy. I was like, and I remember Merelise Wilson: That's so cool. Devyn: after the like initial shock of like I just had the of the fastest delivery I've ever had. It Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: was like one push. I looked at my husband and I was like, that means he's highly psychic. Merelise Wilson: Yes. my God. Was it do you think it was less painful? 'Cause like if you if you're pushing the baby out Devyn: Yes. Merelise Wilson: with all that like extra padding, you know? Devyn: Yes. It that was Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: I couldn't even believe that I was transitioning because it it was a third of what I felt with my daughter. I was like, the Merelise Wilson: Crazy. Devyn: baby's coming right now. The baby's coming right now. And my husband's like, what? And I'm like, the baby's coming right now. And like I could not believe I was he was coming out that fast. I thought I had like two more hours where I was at like pain level-wise. It was wild. Merelise Wilson: That's wild. Devyn: And yeah, he just, it was like. The craziest thing I've ever seen, I've never experienced anything like that. It was really cool. And then I mean, I got to get just like, you know, just like with my daughter, I got to get like tucked in my bed. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: the one thing I did differently with my last baby is I really focused on postpartum support. So I hired a postpartum duela because Merelise Wilson: Mm. Mm-hmm. Devyn: I had four other children at this point and we were living Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: away from all of our family. And I was like, I need help. Like I need someone to come and make sure my husband is able to navigate all the stuff with the kids and not have to worry about like laundry, dishes, meals, you know, Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: am I okay? And so I ended up saving up my whole pregnancy to have someone who could come help me for Merelise Wilson: Hm. Devyn: like three weeks after the baby was born. And it wasn't every day, but it was like enough to Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: where I had someone that I was like, somebody's here to like help take some of this burden off of me. and one Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: of the reasons I was able to do that is because I did end up having a home birth, so it was cheaper. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Devyn: Yeah. Merelise Wilson: And so wait, did you you said you did have a midwife or you didn't have a midwife for this one? Devyn: I did have a midwife, yeah. So she Merelise Wilson: Okay. Okay. Devyn: she was incredible. She was very aligned with everything I wanted and everything that was happening. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: And she actually missed his birth by 30 minutes. So my husband and I delivered him. Yeah. so she got there. Merelise Wilson: my gosh. Devyn: She got there right after he was born. And because I didn't think I thought I had more time. So it was my fault. Like I was Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: like, I was like, I think I think I have like another hour or two. And so she got there. My husband called her and he was like, The baby came out and she was like, Okay, this is what you do. She was so calm. Like, she was like, put me on speakerphone. She was like walking him through everything. And luckily it wasn't his first baby. So he was like pretty calm. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Devyn: but like, so he was just he picked him up, he got him all situated, he clipped clamped his umbilical cord so that it wouldn't, you know, so like he kept it attached, but it was like a clamp. And Merelise Wilson: Right. Yeah. Devyn: there was like all these different things that like she was telling him to do, and I'm just like I'm still in complete shock that I just delivered a baby that fast. Like I was just like, Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: he'd out. Merelise Wilson: That's wild. You deserve that one, girl. You deserve that. After all the different births, all those big babies, C-section, like like V back with that crazy position. my God. You deserve that like dream birth. Devyn: I know. I know. It was so magical. I was like, I was like, that was the fastest. I like I I knew people had quick births like that, but I had never experienced that level. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Yeah. Devyn: I would say the closest was my second son. And I mean, even his was like pushing five hours, I think, or something like that. But Merelise Wilson: Right. Yeah. Devyn: yeah, it was wild. It was a really cool experience. And I mean I that's a lot for people to digest. I have a lot of different experiences. But what I will say that I took from from everything that really helps me with my own clients and what I incorporate into my dual work and my spiritual work is a lot of people decide to have a baby and it's like the physical piece. They just like, we're gonna we're gonna try to get pregnant, we're gonna have a baby. And the spiritual part is kind of missing. And I always am telling clients, I'm like, working in tandem with the spiritual side. Is gonna help so much from preconception all the way through postpartum because not only is it gonna help you like honor yourself and honor your own body, but you're able to honor your baby. And it's like when you're able to work in tandem with your baby and advocate for the things that you want, but also what you feel is true and aligned for baby, it does help you to have experiences that feel a lot like you're saying, like. I had the dream birth, but I didn't feel like I had the dream birth. And it's like that Merelise Wilson: Right. Devyn: happens so often because we're not really listening or we're not really working like with everything that's going on around us, or maybe we feel something and we're going against it, you know? So Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yes. Devyn: yeah, I just I that's been like my biggest takeaway from all of it, besides the fact that like I have beautiful, five beautiful children and a sixth beautiful surrogate baby and like so much like knowledge to help other women, which is great. I could hands down deliver a baby right now. Like no problem. yeah, like anybody's. Merelise Wilson: Like your own, you like by yourself. Yeah. I tr I w I believe you. Yeah. Devyn: Yeah. I'm telling you I could walk right in and be like, come on, I got you. Merelise Wilson: I know, I know. Well maybe you know, maybe if I have that little girl. my gosh. Devyn: She's there. Merelise Wilson: Well, I mean, I could talk to you for another two hours, but I know we're coming up on about two hours of time. So Devyn: Yeah. Merelise Wilson: I guess I guess I have to let you go. But before I do, I always close out my episodes by asking my guests to describe birth in three words, like whatever comes to mind. I know that's Devyn: Ooh. Merelise Wilson: that's asking you to condense a lot into you know, three very small words, but whatever comes to mind for you. Devyn: Okay, powerful, profound and healing. Merelise Wilson: Mm that's so beautiful. Devyn: Yeah. I think I think birth is a is a way that women often finally step into their power. It's like they finally give themselves permission. I don't know. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. I agree. well, thank you from the bottom of my heart. This was so Devyn: Yeah. Merelise Wilson: beautiful and wonderful and magical and just so special. So thank you for sharing all of your experiences with me. Devyn: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me and letting me just run my mouth about birth. Merelise Wilson: Anytime. That's what I'm here for. all right. Well, you've been listening to the Arrivals podcast. Until next time. Yay.