Latest / Boots on the Ground / Still Undecided: A Reservist's Election Day Dilemma with Haim Brenner ep 49

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Still Undecided: A Reservist's Election Day Dilemma with Haim Brenner ep 49 · Boots on the Ground

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of Boots on the Ground, where we discuss Israel's wars, politics, and identity.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, I'm joined by our good friend Chaim Brenner, who's been here before, and we are 100% talking about the politics of this.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to talk about being undecided of who to vote for, as he represents a huge percentage of the undecided voters today.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Men like men and women like himself who study, who work, who serve in the army, and are really just not sure who to vote for in this upcoming election.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Before we get into the episode, I want to thank our partners at the Jerusalem Media Group and our sponsors, BeTheirIsrael.com.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: For all your events in Israel, BeTheirIsrael.com provides live streaming services so all your families and friends around the world can join you virtually.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And remember to like, share, and subscribe so you keep seeing more of this great content.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Chaim, welcome to the show.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me back.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's good to have you.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a while.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: How have you been?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've been good.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've been good.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: We finished our last round of reserves a few months ago.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: I finally finished my degree after God knows how many years because of the amount of reserves we've been doing.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: But now it's time to decide what like what direction we're going forward with the country.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, like this this episode is being broadcast on election day.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: As many people are going to the polls, they don't know who to vote for, they're undecided.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: My stance I've made very clear on this show of who I'm voting for and who I who I support in this election and who I think we should all be voting for.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that is, of course, Oferwinter and Amcha Israel.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: But before that, you're still undecided.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Even now, we're recording right before you go and vote.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea who I'm gonna vote.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about it.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: What are the issues that are important to you?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: What are the things that help you make a decision of what you want to or or don't want to vote for?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's get into that.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Pick one, let's start there, and let's see where we go from there.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: So there are a few main things that I'm looking at.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: One are obviously personal and national security.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a reservist, I've worked in security.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I want this place to be safe.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we can even really talk about anything else until we have a secure country.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I think part of that is also personal accountability and kind of where we go from here, how we learn from the mistakes we've made.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then obviously there is the economic factor, if it's realistic for me to make a living, have a family, raise a family, actually establish myself here, which are all things that I want.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm inherently of the mindset that no matter what the election comes out, I'm staying here and I'm gonna try and make the country better.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: But if you really want to talk about the things that are important to me, it's one, security, two, accountability for the things that haven't been done in the past few years, and three, where we go from here economically and how.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, that plays into a lot of things, including who is paying taxes, who is receiving the benefits from the taxes, who is serving in the army, who is serving in reserves and has to miss work, but that all kind of goes together under the economic envelope.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, so I look at politics the same way, or very similar.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that as someone else who who who is raising children already has already established his family here, I look at that the country has, like we say in Judaism, Hawam omir al-Shalosh Tvarim, right?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: The world stands on three things.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the country stands on three things, and it's security, economics, and education.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the education feeds the economy, the economy feeds our security, our security protects our education and our three It's a circle where they all feed each other and they all need to work in difference.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm less interested in the accountability only for one thing, because I think that the reality is that we're we entered this war in such a div from a very divided place as a nation.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's no true there's no existing mechanism that will be able to be universally accepted by everybody to investigate the the faults and the problems that caused the war.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that practically on our operationally, the army, the one thing it is really good at is self-reflection.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like we know after every operation, we look back and we say, this is what we did right, this is what we did wrong, and we fix it and we we improve from mission to mission, we get better.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: The army's already done that process and it's can still doing that process on an operational level, which is but in my point, the most important part.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Which judge and which politician made which decision?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think in the end of the day, looking backwards of all the 20 years that led up to October 7th, I'm not really interested.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think looking at and looking forward the decisions that were made since October 7th, we can all see the results of them and we could be for or against them.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I do want to answer that because I think it's important.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not so inclined just to sweep accountability under the rug.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Not that's what you're saying, and obviously not looking back 20 years, but and here's one point where I actually really like something that Ofra Vinter said.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: He's the only person who actually gave a solution to how we can assess what happened.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because he made a point that the country is so divided that half the country is never gonna trust a official inquiry commission of Adat Khikil Mamlachti, which would be based on the Supreme Court, and half the country is never gonna trust uh a public or a political one, which would be based on the current economic political system.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And he's the only person who's actually given the idea of here's how we'd have something that would answer both of those concerns and where everyone could at least feel like their their concerns were heard, which I think is a considerable point.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: He actually took it one step further when you read the plan.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not only similar to Ariel Kellner's plan that was presented last Knesset, that it would be a public um board of inquiry that has an equal representation of the coalition and the opposition, which could get deadlocked.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: It also included representatives both of the of the victims and the people who've carried the weight of the problems and the decisions.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it included representatives of the communities from the Western Negative around and the representatives of the hostages and their families and the representatives of the victims.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it also included representatives of the reservist community, where we're the ones who have been carrying the responsibility of the failures and the decisions that have made since then, so that there's a representative of the people that are the ones who are paying the price of the bad or good decisions.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Some are good, some are bad, in that process of investigating what led up to and then what has happened since.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: With that, I 100% agree.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't want to get stuck in that.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: I do want to get into the actual power.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So let's let's start with one.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: What is a policy point that is part of your decision making?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start with pick one.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: A policy point.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: So one, I would like to see everyone that can draft, everyone that doesn't have a physical or health reason that they can't go into the army, they should or do national service.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm open to the idea of alternative service, but I think everyone should have to serve because at the end of the day, it does not make sense that I gave three years from the age of 19 to 22, and then I gave up until the war about a month a year, and since the war, about a hundred days a year of my life, when other people never even have the thought of having to go out and do something.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that plays out not just on the security side, because obviously, if we had more soldiers, if the army was bigger, if there were more people volunteering with Madar, with Zaka, or helping out with Weiwei with uh Ghana Yeladim, with kindergartens, we'd have a stronger education system, we'd have stronger health system, and honestly stronger security, but it would also improve our economic system because I wouldn't be missing three months a year of work, which is obviously hurting the overall economy.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So before we get into the different solutions that have been presented by different parties, I want to point out another thing.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not so much just that we want people to serve, right?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just that.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's that there's there's a balance that's imbalanced where it's not only that the financial burden is falling on an ever-shrinking sector of society as a percentage of the population, the service side, which enables all of that to happen, whether it's national service in the military or national service in the civilian market, is falling on an ever-shrinking percentage of the population as the Haredian Arab populations grow.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: As a percentage.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: So smaller people are are the ones protecting, defending, and creating, and at the same time being the productive taxpaying members of society.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not only that, and we're now propping up and protecting the other side.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: It creates a level of, I don't use the word equality or fairness, but it's an imbalance that becomes harder and harder to maintain as the population sizes shift, and it becomes less and less maintainable because it's just not sustainable.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's sustainable.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm saying.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's less sustainable.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So what parties present solutions that both as a policy point, what solutions do you see happening?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: What parties represent them?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then on the other point, who's actually capable of implementing them?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So those are two very different questions.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And all of the parties, and here I'm kind of going into where I see the benefits, but also where my concerns are in certain of the parties.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of parties have given solutions, and a lot of the criticisms that have been pushed back don't necessarily pan out in my eyes.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: So one, obviously, all of the parties that have said anyone that doesn't draft doesn't get any benefits.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: You don't get the subsidies for kids in daycare, you don't get your Arnona paid for, you don't get all the things paid for if you haven't served first and foremost.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the economic pressure is probably the best way.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: For the Haredi community that doesn't serve, you get nothing until you actually send people to service.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And on that point, we have a perfect example that proves this.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was in the late 90s, right, when Benjamin Tanyao was the finance minister, and they changed the way child benefits are calculated.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Child benefits at the time was a was was a progressive scale.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: The more children you had, the more the the last children were worth.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of it being you get X shekels per month per child, it was you get X shekels per month for the first child, X times whatever, and it kept getting bigger and bigger as you got to more and more children.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: The second he changed it and he brought it back, no, it's about now it's around 200 shekels per child, but it doesn't matter if you have one child or a thousand children, it's still 200 shekels per child.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: You saw the birth rate of the Khari community drop.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it was automatic.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was right away.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: When he started creating work requirements, when he started changing the way welfare was calculated, you saw all of a sudden the female Kharedi employment go up.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: But even still the Kharedi community responds to economic incentives.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: This idea that they don't, by the way, we have all the proof the Kariedi community responds directly to economic incentives.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: That we know.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And while all that may be true, that solved what we would call the the symptoms, if not the problem.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because No, because we talk about plans of saying if you don't serve, you don't get, and then there's a whole kind of well, you can change all that, but they're still not going to serve because it's an underlying religious issue.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And like, no, no, one second.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Their community surrounds to economic incentives, just like most Western humans on the planet.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, people want to have a higher quality of life.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: They want to eat quality food, they want to eat meat more than one meal a week.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if you take away the incentive, the financial incentives, it's gonna be harder to maintain the status quo, which is something I want to see.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the criticisms I've heard of it from both sides, if that's just populism, you're just saying it to get votes, I disagree.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is extremely implementable.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's honestly one of the easier things to implement.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe, maybe there's a concern that the Supreme Court would intervene because it would be a considerable change to quality of life.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I think any reasonably intelligent lawyer could argue back that doing a hundred-something days a year of reserves is a is a like is an unreasonable change in quality of life for anyone who doesn't get those same benefits and get to not show up.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And all of that still plays into my main issue, which is personal and national security.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: How safe I feel, how comfortable I am having my wife, having my siblings, with you having your kids walking around in Jerusalem, in cities in Israel.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: The more security establishment that exists, the more people that are serving, the more people that are able to respond in the case, because it doesn't just end with security service and reserves.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: The same person that did his three years of army service and then did, even if he only did five years of the reserves and said, you know what, I can't do it anymore.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: But when push comes to shove, something goes boom in the shook, someone pulls out a knife and starts stabbing.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: That guy's instincts are gonna kick in.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: He's gonna run.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: A car blows up three cars in front of me when I'm sitting in traffic, and there's a man who's pleading to death on the street.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna know to jump and run.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this might be a little bit of my own stress from our last round in Lebanon.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: But when I carry on a bag, I have two tourniquets in my bag at any given time.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know what?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to carry a bag that weighs an extra half a kilo on me all the time.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Fine, but if something happens, I can at least respond.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I know how to respond, and I am trained to have that instinct because of that background I have.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: The more people that have that instinct, the more people can be able to do it.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that justifies or legitimizes the fact that that's something that still happens in our country, because honestly, the more security you have, the less likely that I'll need to respond to it.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, but it also means that if someone is driving and there's a car accident, it doesn't have to be security related.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: There could be a car accident, someone could have a heart attack, they got bitten by a dog.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: It it doesn't have to necessarily be that you're responding to a security situation.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: There are high stress emergency situations that happen everywhere in the world in perfectly normal and safe countries and happen daily on the streets of our country itself.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then, as we've shown, most people are saved or protected, or that initial first aid that's given is given by civilians.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's given by civilians because they're the ones walking down the street everywhere.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: There isn't an ambulance every three inches, there isn't a police officer every two feet.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And in the end of the day, that initial response is what saves lives.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And now you'll have a greater percentage of the population with at least the basic principles of how to respond trained into them.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Not only that, just the basic training of how to communicate in the army, radio operations, radio basic.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're not talking about anything that anyone else has to do that's more complicated at the basic level.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Means that when they call the emergency services, that phone call is more efficient and faster, which means the emergency services can respond even faster with more information.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: But again, let's get back into the policy.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: What policy is it that a party's presented that gives you confidence to vote for that party?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Which which party represents that, both in the policy they presented and your belief in their and their ability to implement it?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: So honestly, there is one place where I'm leaning towards Naftay Bennett's Yachad party, because he has outright said, I will turn off the faucet.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: No money will go into the party sector for anyone who hasn't served, and all of that money that's coming out of there will go into the pockets of reservists and service members.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that I stand behind.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if that's implementable, it'll ultimately depend on who coalition partners are, but I do think it is.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's an unrealistic policy.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: So now I have a question for you then, I'll push back.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: He had a year and a half as prime minister in a government where he had the luxury of having zero Haredi parties in his coalition.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: He passed or present forget passed, he presented zero legislation to change that reality.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think he'll do it now?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: One, I do think people's priorities and where their heads are have changed since the last three or four years, and I'm willing to hear people out.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're absolutely right, and I do hold accountability to people who have had the opportunity and haven't taken.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't put a whole lot of emphasis on what was and wasn't able to be done in that particular government because it was inherently a weak and and based on parties not voting rather than a strong coalition that was united together and focused on one goal.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: But every partner in that coalition agreed about the hurricane Lieberman, Lieberman, Bennett, Gantz, these are all people Gaudi Eisencott was part of that government.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: He was they all believed in drafting for all, yet none of them presented.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Forget past.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: In a year and a half to pass legislation, wouldn't be a surprise if it didn't succeed in passing it completely.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: But they didn't even present it, they didn't even try to change it.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: All of that's decided to be able to do that.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: But that same government also funded the entire Kharedi school system.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Which is a huge critical system.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And funded the welfare system.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I've custom, why why do you believe that now they're gonna do something different?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one, I believe that if if the the Shinui, the change coalition does come into government, one, I think that they're gonna have a more united front.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're gonna have to put together in order to get an agreement between them, because I think they're a lot farther apart than most people realize.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because Israeli politics, at least mainstream Israeli politics, is fairly narrow, even within that fairly narrow window, I think they're farther apart than people realize, but they're gonna have to make concessions to one another.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And as far as whether or not they're gonna be able to do it, I'm not so concerned of putting the burden of proof on them as opposed to looking at the other side and seeing they've had 20 years to do it and it hasn't happened because they I haven't gotten to that side yet.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: We'll get there in a minute.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: We'll get to my criticism on the other side, or our criticism on the other side.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: But my other question though is is any of that legislation that passes, let's say they try, in order for them to form a coalition, they have to include the Arab parties.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's no math that allows them to have a ruling coalition without the Arab parties as active members of the coalition.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: As of right now, that's true.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not entirely sure.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you basically.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Again, come tomorrow morning on Wednesday, we'll see what the numbers really are and how coalitions work out.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: But judging off the general direction that everything's showing, they don't have a coalition without the Arab parties involved.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: So my question is, is any legislation that would have affect the Kharim will in theory also affect the Arab parties, and they're not in support of it.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: So my question is, is how does that side have any greater of ability to change anything?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Where your where does your I'm trying to understand where your confidence and their ability to implement comes from.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: First and foremost, I'll be perfectly honest with you.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: I am deeply skeptical, not just of polls, but of journalism in general.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're in agreement on that.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why I take all of it with a grain of salt.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: I do maybe you remember the American midterm elections during Biden's administration when everyone was sure there was gonna be a red wave.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then what actually happened was a red trickle.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And what the and what the commentary afterwards was after the fall of Roe v.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Wade, people were like, well, yeah, and you thought we were just gonna let that pass by quietly.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a little bit critical of the current of the comments.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right, no, no.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at it as as identifying.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Identifying trends.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: One, I have a feeling based on what I've seen in other places in the world after not really similar events, because there's not a lot of things you can compare to October 7th, but something that was as shaking to the identity, there have been considerable swings.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I I have a tendency to feel there's something in my stomach that says it's gonna go a lot farther towards the the alternative coalition, the current opposition, the current coalition.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: But all that put together, I have a pretty strong feeling that we're not getting through this with one election cycle.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious as to what it actually looks like in the end.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you're right, but at the end of the day, the issue isn't if I have 100% confidence that they can do it, rather, if I have more confidence that they will actively try to than the other coalitions.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, you're right.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: The current Gushashinui, the the the change coalition, the current opposition, based on polls.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say the polls are Tolamas Sinai, you're right, they can't form a government without the Arabs.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: But on the other hand, the the current coalition can't form a government without the without being not just resting on, not just based on them not voting, without their full-throated support, which they have explicitly said that they won't give without any of the things that are.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So now I'm going to present the counter-argument to your position and explain to you why I'm confident of here and where I'm voting.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is also an issue that anyone who watches the show knows that this is an issue that is of probably top priority for me.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's really just rebalancing the relationships and creating some level of fairness and sustainability within Israeli society.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Before we get into it, can I make one point?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: We keep using the term fairness.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think it's the right, I don't think it's the right term.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've hit a point with Haredi society where they're so far separated from the rest of general Israeli society that I'm not even looking at fairness, rather just reintegration, because they're not integrated.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: They live in a separate autonomy.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that without and here is where education is going to be huge, but without a change in the education system, that won't change.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll use I don't know if integration is more like a togetherness to be part of us.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Reunification.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Reunification.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's reunifying the Jewish people around core ideals.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I like that word a lot better.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you that one.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I look at it this way Oferwinter, who's the head of the party that I support, I'm Khaisrael, presents a plan.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Presents a very clear plan that has the carrot and the stick.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: But you need both.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: When I look at Bennett's plan, most of it's a stick.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: All of it's a stick.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: We both know as children who got plenty of sticks in their lives.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: The stick without the carrot has very minimal success of accomplishing anything.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Unless you're like me and then joke's on you, I'm into that.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're not even going from there, guys.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: You edit that out.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, that's standing.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: The carrot and the stick, right?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we present a plan that says, listen, we recognize that there are inherent flaws and problems in the existing systems in the army if we want to actually have the kharim join the army.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're not trying to re-educate anybody.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're not trying to change who you are.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: We do need to make Khatamot.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Khatibata Hashmonaim exists today.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Ofer Winter himself, as a mefikhet of Khat was the Machat of Givati, created Tomer.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: He also created Khadzin Sant Khanim.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: He has a proven track record of success, of recognizing the individual needs of the Kharedi community, building the systems within.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: The army that can absorb them and doing it successfully.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: So he has a proven track record of doing it.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time, he says this isn't an issue of him trying to re-educate or integrate or change who you are.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: He flips it very closely as we're we're brothers.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're brothers.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: We have complete disagreements on our worldviews and our opinions, but we're still family, and we need to be considerate one of the other, and we need to help and raise up each other instead of fight each other.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And he's presenting to the Khredi world the situation.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not taking away the benefit.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm saying simply discounts on property taxes, you and I get five percent as reservist.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: A Yeshiva student can get up to 90, 91%, either 90 or 91%.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is let's shift that around.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Flip it.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so you want more?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: You want to you want the rest of society to give you a benefit?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: You have to first serve the rest of society.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: You want to study in higher education?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: We all no one talks about the core funding that the Ministry of Education gives to yourone talks about the 10,000 checkout, which is less than 30% of the actual tuition that gets covered.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: What about the other 70%?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not talking only about the Kharim, we're talking about the Arab sector as well.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Equally one-to-one.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about when it comes to buying property and you get an 8% masashbacha, which is um oh sorry, on purchase tax.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: On maskanya for property, there's an 8% purchase tax that every first-time buyer doesn't have to pay.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: So from now on, only first-time buyers who served get that benefit.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you didn't serve, you can pay that percent tax because instead of serving, you were working in theory, or you had the ability to work.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what he's saying is let's do one with the other.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And let's take the benefits that society is getting, and let's give them only to the people that are giving back directly to society.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time, he's recognizing we're not changing society overnight.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lit, there's a nut there's a percentage of Haredi society that's gonna stay in Yeshiva and they're gonna be learning all day.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you and I can agree or disagree with the value of that on a spiritual level, whether that changes something in the in the calculations of God or not.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Last I checked, I'm not God, and either are you.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have prophecy.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I ask God questions all the time.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've yet to receive direct answers.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's valued or not, but we're recognizing that they're recognizing us if I'm saying we're gonna leave it.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna leave the people who are actually sitting and learning all day long, but we're gonna do it Minfukah, the same way in a Hesder Yeshiva.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's a fingerprint or it's a facial scanner that recognizes that you're actually there.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're sitting and learning or sitting and staring at a book, I have no way of knowing.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to that you're physically there all day.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna encourage to take the yeshivot that exists, and we're gonna try and latique, trying to copy the Hesder model that includes some level of learning and army service in the middle of nowhere on the Egyptian border, on the Jordanian border, on the northern world, and places where we can, where we can have a lower level of intensity of service.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can keep your own frameworks, your yeshiva though, instead of sitting in Bneibrok, where it's nice, but it's core, it's expensive real estate, it's not hard things.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to be there.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: You can be anywhere.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: A gumara, you pick up the book and you move it.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: We can move the Beit Midrash to somewhere where now it's serving also a security purpose by holding onto the territory and say, listen, we're gonna do both.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't, and you we're not gonna force you, we're not gonna start filling up jails of people who say you choose not to serve.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's financial consequences for you and your future family if you make the decision as an adult not to serve.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then you'll start a snowball effect.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: You'll start change, it will take a generation.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking at this as a solution for the next 30 years, 40 years, not for today.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think the assumption that'll take a generation, not three or four, is very optimistic.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to call it naive.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you and I have spoken about this at length.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: My political and ideological values, for the most part, really do line up with a lot of things that are going on in Amcha Israel under Othyr Winter.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: I have been hugely supportive of his creation of the Haredi units.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: All of that being said, I have to push back on it becoming something that copies the Hesder model, because at the end of the day, the people that do find their way to those units tend to be people that would have been inclined to draft anyway, but were societally or personally prevented by what they saw in the army.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's wonderful that those pathways exist, but I don't think they answer the greater societal issue inside of Haredi society who have rejected by and large those solutions.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: They don't accept them.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: You don't see people going en masse, and you see people that are clearly not sitting in the ashiva, the Shababnikim that are walking around in Kika Turot all day, even though they're listed as uh Lomed Torah, Tola Toy Monoto.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: They're not going to the army.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't see any of the major part of Kharedi society pushing them.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the stick comes in.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: You offer the carrot, and when the carrot isn't taken, the stick is waiting.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to do both in unison at the same time.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the only and it's the only party presenting a plan like that.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're gonna tell me afterwards, but with and sitting in a coalition with the Kharedim, how do you expect to accomplish that?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're gonna address that one at the end, because that's the biggest political question, and that one is where we're gonna have the most to talk about.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into the economy a little bit.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, absolutely.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because we we we sat in this issue, let's talk about the economy.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: You and I both we've now served hundreds of days of milum in this war.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think our units have like 410 days since October 7th.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: 500 plus, but okay.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: You did more reserves other players, that's different.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's fine.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: 500.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, just just in our unit, we're at 500 plus.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, we're at 500.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, for sure.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: You and I, and I'm closer to six at this point.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Either way, we've served hundreds of days of Miloim.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're first starting your professional career now, looking ahead, what you have to earn, what you're gonna have to pay in taxes, the cost of living.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at as someone who's run a business, who's had a business, who's lost a business, who's grown a business, who's shifting professions in the middle of fighting a war, that paid taxes way more than I'm happy to.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: What what are your concerns moving forward?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: What what parties have presented plans that you think are actually capable of changing something along those lines, and where do you fall on that?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: So first and foremost, nothing changes in our economic situation without shutting off the amount of money of the taxes we pay that go directly into the pockets of people that don't serve, don't work, and don't put money in.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: The the difference between let's call it mainstream, and by mainstream I mean people that go to Mamlahti, whether that's religious or secular.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we're gonna do the education afterwards.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Let's focus on the economy.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just talking about as a subset of society.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: The people that then serve in the army, who then work and pay taxes.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: The people who are paying the most in taxes are the people who are getting the least back out of it, and the people who are paying the least in taxes are consistently people who are getting the most back out of it.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: But that's like that in every Western country that has a wealth has some level of a welfare state because you the whole thing.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not to the extent, but in the end of the day, we all know 1% pay 90% of the taxes, and it goes to to subsidize the lower parts of the lower economically successful parts of the state.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: But what we're talking about is in a welfare state for everyone.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I was in the same socioeconomic situation as someone who lives in Bnebrock with seven kids, I wouldn't get most of the benefits that they do.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily true.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I want to talk about uh specific economic policies.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh policies that have been presented by by parties that that draw your attention that are making you.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at Amcha Israel's policy that they've put out, it it gives you way more detail than that.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it looks at the Kharedi issue as the as a piece of it and presents an entire policy.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is it practical?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is it something that can be uh implicated in something that can be implicated under which coalition?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's also a big concern.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big question.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a big concern about any economic policy.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now, first and foremost, any comments, and I don't want to get too into specific things, but talking about moving to a crypto economy is a bad idea.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, we're not going to crypto economy.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Correct, exactly.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Let's keep this conversation within the realm of possible and normal.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: One, I would like to see more aid towards young people buying homes in Israel.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's something that needs to be answered.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: It in America, they say that people that are Gen Z have next to no hope of ever buying a home.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: In Israel, I don't think that's the case quite yet.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So what's what's the policy that would help young people buy a home?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Firstly, there should be tax benefits on anyone who serves a certain amount of reserves in their first apartment.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Secondly, there should be discounts on land.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And third, there should be economic incentives to get people to move back to all of the places that were evacuated or damaged during the war.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: I would want to see subsidies for building in the Golan Heights and in the in the northern area from the western Galilee, Etzbagalil, all the way across the Lebanese border, and huge amounts of money towards people that'll move towards the OTEF between if that's going back to the kibbutzim that were evacuated or helping to build new communities.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: I would want to see that.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are a lot of people that are going in that.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Which parties are presenting that plan?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely nobody.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Wrong.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: I have not seen any party give a full idea.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people, and also, and here's the thing it might be, and here's I haven't read the entire website and the entire policy commission of every single party.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: And some of them might have actually put out a full one.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And even if Amchai Israel does have a full policy put out, how would it be implemented?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: So let's so let me answer it.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the episode that's being broadcast right before this, I interviewed Ronin Bun Budnilo, who was the economist of Amchai Israel, who built the economic plan.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the many points he touches on is one, the need to remove, first of all, the Soviet cartels that control our agriculture.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: The the the the Soviet board for for honey, for milk, for we all all of our agricultural reality in Israel is controlled by the Soviet era car.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: I call them cartels because that's what they are, but they're Soviet boards, planning commissions.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Central planning commissions.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Central planning that planned our agricultural economy at the beginning of the state.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, at the beginning of the state in 48, that was an absolute necessity.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Our country would not have created itself, would not be able to feed itself, we're not able to exist without them.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: We've outgrown that system.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: We've outgrown that economically, we've outgrown that population.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Israel, if we converted the entire Israel from north to south to only agricultural reality and do nothing else, we still would not be able to produce enough food to feed ourselves.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's not physically possible on the amount of land that we have, even if all of it was farmable.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the reality is that we still have central committees controlling our agricultural production, which hurts our economy.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: We have central committees that control the prices of electricity and all the different things that are controlling for the product.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: The argument is to move away from socialism towards a more free market.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're always going to get that support.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's Al Khazal presented two plans.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, again, part of the Kharid draft plan shifts the way the budgets are already used between the serving and producing sector of Israel and the non-serving and producing sectors of Israel, which includes the Kharim and the Arabs and lots of other smaller sections in society.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: The plan looks at all of them.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: You serve, you serve.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: We don't care who you are, what you are.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: You serve, you produce, you serve, you produce, regardless of your race, creator, color.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay the plan also represents that we need to remove away from the Soviet agricultural commissions and planning boards, and we need to free up the free market's ideas and let the free markets control things.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: When it comes to the land, Remi, the Reshut Mikalkendi, we have to start selling off land.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: It can't be that the government holds 90% of the land in Israel and lets it go very little at a time.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Let the market take over.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Where we need housing, people will build housing.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Where we need commercial industries, people will commercial and industry.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Let the market take over with minimal regulation.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Not only that, part of the plan is to open up the land up north and down south and encourage reservists like you and I with steep discounts on the purchase of the land that you only qualify for if you serve and continue to serve reserve duty, to build our own communities while supporting it with infrastructure.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can live in the galley or in the golan all you want, but if there's no employment or there's no efficient transportation transportation system to get you from there to your job, you can't survive there because you have no way of employing yourself.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Then again, all the houses in the world, it won't help.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's again why we have my vote.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I'll refer all our lists to look back to the previous episode.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about all about the economic plan of Amcha Israel.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that one of the key failures of every party that's running now is everyone said Yokemchia, so cost of living and affordability is a crisis here, and something we need to talk about.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the first time I've actually heard a party giving this is our plan to change it.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I do agree that there have been things they've said about how we use money from the government, whether it's taking money out of people that don't serve and putting it to people that do, whether it's focusing more on education, whether it's getting rid of the amount of money you get per child.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, even with what you said earlier about BB's change in policy back in 2007, I think it was.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: 1993.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's still 1992.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's still the amount of children that certain sectors are having far outpace other sectors, and it's because of the amount they're getting per child.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: I want to make one last point before we move on to the political to the political weeds of the conversation for real.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's where it's going to be interesting.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's one major issue that I've had, and my criticism is on the current government, squarely on the current coalition.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: All the benefits that have been given to people like you and I who have served all of the money that's been important to the reservist community, all the expenses of rebuilding the Western Negative and rebuilding the North, and all that money has come out of our pockets.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's come out of our future pockets.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: The current government mortgaged our future to give us stuff now.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not that you're giving me money now.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: You took money out of my future earnings and gave it to me today.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of realigning financial priorities at a time of war, we do not need to be investing in sports and culture.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: There'll be less soccer games and less plays, so be it.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a national priority when we're fighting a war.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of removing money from failing educational systems and putting it into the succeeding ones, we just mortgaged our future.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: You and I, our children, and even our grandchildren are going to be paying for the stuff that we are getting today.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's been the big my biggest criticism is instead of having the courage to say we're fighting a war right now and our national priorities are not what they used to be, and we need to put our on, we need to realize national priorities, we can borrow on the future a little bit.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: We've not just been an issue of order of priorities in this country for a long time, and I feel like the war has only exacerbated it.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we can get into my criticisms of specific departments that have turned their their ministries that otherwise wouldn't be getting enough as much money during a war because they're not as important, and turn them into just a job factory and that we can go into specific parties.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about that after this election.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the political weeds of coalition versus opposition.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Who's gonna sit with whom I see?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: What would your dream coalition the day after the tom, you know, we you we'll watch this episode again on Wednesday or Thursday after we know how many seats want each party?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Dream coalition.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Assuming that the polls are plus minus correct, you know, because we can't we can't have this discussion unless we have some sort of boundaries on our discussion.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: If if I'm assuming that the polls are plus minus correct, then everyone's gonna be miserable.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna What would your dream coalition look like?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: First and then let's do that.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: I would want to see Amchai Israel and Amilouim Nakim of Yoas Henda both passing the Ahuza Hasima.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: I would want to see them together in a coalition.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would want to see most of the current Gushishinui.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: I would want to see Bennett, I would want to see Isencott, I want to see Lieberman.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Likud, I kind of get into this trap when I hear people talking about, well, we'd be willing to listen to Likud the day after Netanyahu.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: And here I have a criticism because if you go into what my political ideals are, they line up with on paper what Likud's ideology was five, ten years ago, maybe 15 years ago.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the party has been essentially everyone that was of real value or quality has been either kicked out, dragged out, or failed to show enough loyalty to the leader and therefore is not there.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: So the current party I kind of see as a clown car, and I don't particularly It's a collection of special interest groups.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, which is a huge thing.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's been turned into BB loyalists and special interest groups.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: If Likud were to do a hard reset to go back to their actual values, to go back to Begin's revisionists, though.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not talking about the dream that we all have of this utopian world.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, the current reality of the colours on the map and the way they are now.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: What does your dream coalition look like?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the problem.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like anyone that currently exists for prime minister, so I understand that I'm gonna have to swallow, swallow.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is we need to have a prime minister.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: We tried having two, it didn't work out.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we've tried zero yet.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if that would work.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think realistically, from where I'm sitting, the best option is probably Gaudi Eisencott.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean it's what I think the best option ever would be.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would very much want to see, if he was prime minister, someone like Ofer Winter to be kind of a reign to keep him from going too far.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: And my my biggest criticism of Gaudi Eisencott is that he's been a little bit too willing not to make concessions, but to kind of find the middle ground with people that not necessarily we should.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: He's expressed very much willingness to work with Shas, to keep the Haredi as part of society and kind of work towards making some sort of agreement, despite the fact that they've told us multiple times that they have no interest in serving or being part of society.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: He also has a vested interest in working with the Arab parties.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: And here I have to criticize kind of mainstream media, which no surprises there that I have criticism, but we keep saying it like the right wing or Israeli politics is against sitting with the Arabs, and that is just not true.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: The current parties that represent the Arab society don't represent a Zionist or a belief in a state.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: They are parties that are not in favor of the state they exist in, and that is contradictory to the interest of a country existing.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: So if there was an Arab party that said, yes, we are Arab, but we live in Israel, we want to work.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yusuf Khadad is someone that I want my kids to see as a role model, but I I I don't think he's necessarily the best representation of the vast majority of Arab society that are citizens of Israel.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I from my experiences in university.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: From my experiences, we want to talk about a Chris uh uh you want to talk about a Zionist Arab.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: I so maybe Zionist is not the right term because I don't expect them all of a sudden tomorrow to say, yes, we want to live in a Jewish state, but I want them to at least acknowledge that they do.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think any part that doesn't acknowledge the reality of where they live is gonna have a very hard time actually being part of functioning.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: What does this coalition look like?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we have a real way forward on this election.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, I wish we did.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Ideally, I would see the current Gushishinui with Hendo and Ofer Vinter kind of serving as the checks and balances against their what I'd call worst.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you include the Democratim and Yaru Golan in that coalition?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: I do represented by a list of people that have Gavilaski who voluntarily represents the worst of terrorists in Israeli courts.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, they are a huge part of Israel.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: My discomfort, and again, there is discomfort as opposed to I've seen what they've done in government and I've seen how they've pulled the reins.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: I personally don't think that the Democrat Party will be able to pull the reins and pull strings the same way that the Haredi and that other parties inside the current coalition did.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: I have my deep disagreements and deep discomfort.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: But the fact of the matter is, just like I respect the people that want to vote for Ben Gvir and Smootlich as much as I disagree with their policies, I respect the people that want to vote.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, that is a huge subset of society.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the vast majority of those people, despite what they might say, are people who like us serve in the reserves, who work, who pay taxes.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're part of our they're part of our community, they're part of our society, and they do have a voice.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: If I am comfortable with everything, no, of course not.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not comfortable with everything from any party.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: So here, so I'm gonna I'm gonna present my what I think are the three options coming out of this election.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Please do.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm gonna ask you a question, and then we're gonna wish everyone a happy election day, and remind everyone, no matter what you feel or think, the most important thing is to vote.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll say like this I see coming out of this election three, maybe four possible options.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's one, the current opposition, with all of its flaws, wins a majority.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: Gotti Isencot is prime minister.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: He's reliant, his coalition is both on the Arab parties and Yarigolan.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: One's post Zionist, one's anti Zionist.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think actually the country will be in for a very bad place.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the weak Gaudi Isencott, who shrank the army before October seventh.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Was the architect of the multi-year plan for Gidon, which was a small and smart army, which proved as a failure.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: A coalition that had proven track records of failure of bringing the Kharin back into the into the broader society who believe in socialist economic principles through Yaragolan and the Demokratim, and to an extent, many members of Ghariaiz, I think we'll be in will be in for a very tough time.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: And my one beautiful thing is that I don't worry about it.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: That coalition won't be able to function together.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: It'll fall apart fairly quickly, I believe.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: It'll get in, it'll change some people, it'll try and do what it can.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it will function for very long.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back in elections, I think, within a year or two years, no matter what.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I tend to believe that's what I'm saying.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's option one.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Go on.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Option two is not really that much better.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Option two is the current coalition keeps their majority, and we have just a continuation of the current coalition, which I also think will be harder and harder for them to keep together.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: If they go by the current polls, that's not realistic.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: I said it's not realistic.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I'm playing with three, maybe four options here.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Four options because the fourth one isn't really something I think anyone really wants.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: The second option was the current coalition maintains this majority.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: Polls aren't really showing it happening, but let's just say the polls are all wrong, like we both believe, and they maintain it somehow.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that coalition also it'll continue doing more of the same, but I think it'll be harder and harder to keep that coalition together due to the internal pressure both on Smolitch and Benvir to do something about the reunification of Kharidi society.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I also don't think that government will last for very long.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: Fourth option is I think a conglomeration of the two.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think, and this is what I believe.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I have, if I was a betting man of what I would bet on would happen, I believe that it's going to become where it's going to be Benjamin Itanyel and Gabi Gadi Isenkot, as in the past.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: There'll be a very, very high number of voters for those two parties, and they'll create what's called a rotation government, where they switch off being prime minister and foreign minister.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: It will include Amchai Israel in the party, it will include Butt Al-Smotrich, it'll include Avigdol Lieberman, and it'll include Bennett.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: You'll have a very broad, very Zionist coalition.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think the number of things it will be able to do on an economic front will be minimal because of the disagreements of the different sides.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think on the Kharidi draft issue, they'll be able to make progress, not as much as either one of us will want, but at least I know that security-wise, we'll be in strong hands.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: I also think it will bring a level of healing.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: It'll it'll lower the flames of discontent between the two political camps in Israel and bring us back together.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: I do think there is a fourth option.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: Which is the votes are all over the place.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: No one can get along enough, and we actually go into a second round of elections within 60 days.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Which is what I think is most likely to happen, to be perfectly honest.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Which I think, which I also I don't know if it's good or bad.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: I hope I I'm really hoping we don't have to go down that road only because the lack of having functioning government, while it's cheaper to have an election than a functioning government on a national level, I think it's unhealthy.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're at a place where we need a level of let's bring the flames down, let's have a level of togetherness, of a chdut.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: Even if it doesn't last very long, it doesn't work, we'll be able to like take lower gears a little bit, shift down a little bit to be able to start having political discussions about policy and not about personalities.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: And start talking about the issues at hand and not the people in charge of the party so much.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: And only then we'll be able to move forward.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to end it here today.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna ask you one last question, Chaim.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: I want to ask one question before because I think it's important to be able to do that.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, one, in the case of the first situation, where you do have the opposition is able to form a government, even if it's with Arabs, under that, and I I don't know if you have a direct answer.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's what you would want to see.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: Would you want to see Amcha Israel come into that coalition?
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely not.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: As someone who works with the party, I think the head of the party himself has stated it very clearly.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: He will not sit under Gadi Isencourt as the Prime Minister.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: He does not trust his decision making.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: I personally have absolutely no trust in decision making.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's no place in a ruling coalition for the post-Zionist Party of the Democrats and the anti-Zionist Party of the Arabs.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think any government that's relying on those two voices is very dangerous, not only for the state of Israel, but the people of Israel.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: I have a hard time defending a former lieutenant chief of staff as dangerous or post-Zionist.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: I have criticisms, and obviously that's someone who maybe should say less on media because he gets in his own way, but I have a hard time defining the entire party as post-Zionism.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: As far as the final option that you put forward, and this is just a comment on myself, of somehow a wide government.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that's probably, at least short term, the best option.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Realistically, I don't think it's realistic as long as Benjamin Netanyahu still sits the head of Likud.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think eventually, and not in the first round of elections, if we get to a second and God, even a third, I think that becomes more likely that we get there.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: But those are just the beautiful thing is, is within a few days of everyone listening to this show, we'll know which one which option happened.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: And now I want to ask you one last question.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: With all the politics and with all the election stuff going around, and people are unsure of who to vote for, people are very worried about Israel's future, both on the left and on the right.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Give me one idea.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: One idea that makes you optimistic for our future here as a Jewish people in the land of Israel.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: What gives you pure optimism?
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: While you think about your answer, I of course want to say thank you to our partners here at the Jerusalem Media Group and our sponsors, beTheirIsrael.com, for all your events in Israel, BeThereIsrael.com provides live streaming services so all your families and friends around the world can join you virtually.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: And remember to like, share, and subscribe.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: And most importantly, go out and vote today.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: And now for our final thought, Chaim, what is it that gives you optimism for our future here?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: These exact conversations, the ability to sit and disagree and still talk about what's right, what's wrong, what's the right direction forward.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: It felt like up until the October 7th, Israeli society was starting to tear apart and we were losing the ability to have conversations, even if we disagreed.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: And for all of the horrors of war, for all of the horrible things we've been through in the last three years, it does feel like if you ignore all of the noise from the news stations, if you ignore all of the talking heads and you just sit down with people, we're coming back to being able to talk.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: Whether we agree or not, we can still have a coffee, have a cigarette, be friends, understand that we're one nation, disagree where we need to, but still understand we ultimately have the same goal of working together, living together, and succeeding.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's one thing I was at, so I want to share with you my thought quickly was that I was at an I was at our big uh we had a big Amkra Israel event last night, a big conference, you know, before the election.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: And Ofer Winter himself said one thing.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: In war you have enemies.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: In politics, you have your regime.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: You have you have political opponents, you have rivals.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's only when we remember that our political opponents are our rivals and not our enemies, is when we can really move forward.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: And on that note, remember go out and vote.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: Don't vote more than once, but vote.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, voting is the most important thing you could do in a democracy, and it's the way that we share our voice and our opinion with the people who ultimately make the decisions.