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Dr. Dan Cosachhi Has Had One Leg Up On Covering Pope Francis and Joins OneLegupAlex 4-23-25 · OneLegUpAlex Media

0:03
Speaker 1: Here's your host, Alex Garrett.
0:08
Speaker 2: All right, well, I'm very honored here as we continue
0:10
Speaker 2: to coverage of the loss of Pope Francis, to welcome
0:13
Speaker 2: PayPal experts, doctor Daniel Kosaki of the University of Scranton.
0:18
Speaker 2: You're the Vice president for Mission and Ministry at the
0:21
Speaker 2: University of Scranton. Thanks for joining me.
0:22
Speaker 1: Doctor Kosaka, thanks so much for having me.
0:25
Speaker 2: Now, you've written extensively about Pope Francis, and you know
0:28
Speaker 2: twelve year reign. First of all, what would your take
0:31
Speaker 2: away from this twelve years of his papacy.
0:35
Speaker 1: Wow? I think that Pope Francis's legacy over these twelve
0:40
Speaker 1: years has really been remarkable in so many ways. First
0:44
Speaker 1: of all, he was the Pope of first. As many
0:46
Speaker 1: people have been saying, he was the first pope to
0:48
Speaker 1: take the name Francis, after Saint Francis of a CC.
0:51
Speaker 1: Remember when when he was elected and took the name Francis.
0:56
Speaker 1: Originally people were thinking, oh my goodness, he's a Jesuit.
0:59
Speaker 1: So he probably took name after Francis Xavier, one of
1:02
Speaker 1: the original Jesuits and a great missionary to Asia. Two
1:05
Speaker 1: days after he was elected, Francis met with the media
1:08
Speaker 1: representatives and said that he took the name after Francis
1:12
Speaker 1: of Assisi for three reasons, so not Xavier but a Cci.
1:16
Speaker 1: And first of all, because Francis of Assisi was the
1:19
Speaker 1: Saint of the poor and he wanted Pope Francis wanted
1:22
Speaker 1: a poor church for the poor. Secondly, Saint Francis of
1:26
Speaker 1: Assisi was the saint of peace, and Pope Francis wanted peace,
1:30
Speaker 1: and in fact said that every week Sunday after Sunday
1:34
Speaker 1: in his Angelus address peace in the world, calling for
1:38
Speaker 1: ceasefires in Ukraine and in the Holy Land.
1:41
Speaker 2: And he asked you that his final message on.
1:43
Speaker 1: Sunday exactly right, So really in keeping with his and
1:46
Speaker 1: keeping with his tradition. And thirdly, Saint Francis was the
1:50
Speaker 1: saint of all of creation. We always see statues of
1:52
Speaker 1: Saint Francis with animals. Well, that's really part of Saint
1:56
Speaker 1: Francis being the saint of all of creation. So ten
1:59
Speaker 1: years ago now Francis wrote an encyclical letter laudato see
2:04
Speaker 1: on care for our common home, and so that was
2:07
Speaker 1: really part of his part of his message. So that
2:10
Speaker 1: was the first person to take the name Francis as
2:12
Speaker 1: I mentioned he was a Jesuit, so he was the
2:14
Speaker 1: first Jesuit pope the Society of.
2:18
Speaker 2: To make him a saint. Does he become Saint Francis
2:21
Speaker 2: the second or how does that work? I mean, how
2:22
Speaker 2: many Saint Francis are there?
2:24
Speaker 1: Well, there's a few, so we've obviously Saint Francis of
2:26
Speaker 1: a Cci and Saint Francis Xavier, who I've already mentioned,
2:29
Speaker 1: but there's a few other Saint franciss So Saint Francis
2:34
Speaker 1: to Sales would be another popular one, and Saint Francis Borgia,
2:37
Speaker 1: who was also a Jesuit. So if if one day
2:41
Speaker 1: God willing Pope Francis becomes Pope Saint Francis, he would
2:45
Speaker 1: be he would join a long list of really saintly
2:49
Speaker 1: figures that the Church already praised for their intercession. So
2:53
Speaker 1: I think that would be that would be apt. I
2:55
Speaker 1: don't want to put the cart in front of the
2:57
Speaker 1: horse or anything like that, but this this.
3:00
Speaker 2: Law seems to have hurt a lot of people inside
3:03
Speaker 2: outside the church community, which is great how we had
3:05
Speaker 2: that reached inside and outside the Catholic Church. But beyond that,
3:09
Speaker 2: I feel like his loss is hurting a lot of
3:11
Speaker 2: people more so than pope's you know, Pope John Paul
3:14
Speaker 2: the Second and even Benedictuse he retired before he passed away.
3:18
Speaker 2: So what's this uniqueness to this pope that everybody's really
3:22
Speaker 2: rallying around when their morning.
3:24
Speaker 1: It's it's fascinating because I believe that, well certainly not
3:29
Speaker 1: just I believe that we see that every pope has
3:33
Speaker 1: his own style. So if we just think about the
3:36
Speaker 1: three popes that you just mentioned, John Paul the Second
3:39
Speaker 1: was this big charismatic figure. He could have a million people,
3:43
Speaker 1: you know, tuning in to his every word, and he
3:47
Speaker 1: was like a he was like an actor. In fact,
3:48
Speaker 1: he was an actor, and so he was full of charisma.
3:53
Speaker 1: Benedicta sixteenth was a bit more cerebral and intellectual. He
3:57
Speaker 1: was a university professor, uh, and so he was a
4:00
Speaker 1: little bit more reserved in that sense, and as you say,
4:04
Speaker 1: died long after he resigned the papacy, So that was
4:06
Speaker 1: a little bit different. With Francis, I feel like he
4:10
Speaker 1: had a particular gift that I've seen with very few
4:13
Speaker 1: people where he could reach out to there could be
4:17
Speaker 1: a million people there, as there often were. Think about
4:20
Speaker 1: his trip to the Philippines, a few years back, where
4:22
Speaker 1: there were in fact over a million people present, and
4:26
Speaker 1: you got the sense when he was speaking that he
4:28
Speaker 1: was speaking directly to you, that even if you were
4:31
Speaker 1: watching him from thousands of miles away in a different
4:35
Speaker 1: language through the translator, that he was looking right at
4:38
Speaker 1: you and he was reaching out right to you because
4:42
Speaker 1: he recognized, like any good father does, that the people
4:46
Speaker 1: in greatest need are the ones that we need to
4:49
Speaker 1: attend to. And so I think that personal touch that
4:52
Speaker 1: he had really impacted people in a great way. And
4:55
Speaker 1: I think we're going to see that outpouring of love
4:57
Speaker 1: for him over these next days, the next.
5:00
Speaker 2: Few days from your perspective in a minute, but you know,
5:03
Speaker 2: because you are director of ministry and whatnot at Screen University,
5:06
Speaker 2: I want to ask you this. I'm imagining you are
5:08
Speaker 2: a married man as well. Is that correct?
5:10
Speaker 1: I am, yeah.
5:11
Speaker 2: I'll bring that up because he did one of the
5:13
Speaker 2: biggest reforms I thought, was allowing men to marry in
5:16
Speaker 2: the priests. And I feel like that is such an
5:18
Speaker 2: important point no one really covered, but it would help
5:22
Speaker 2: alleviate a lot of issues in the Catholic Church. Am
5:24
Speaker 2: I right?
5:25
Speaker 1: Well, so let me just it's gonna pump the brakes
5:28
Speaker 1: a little bit there. So there's still in the Roman
5:30
Speaker 1: Catholic priesthood the expectation of celibacy, so that the vast majority,
5:37
Speaker 1: like ninety nine percent of Catholic priests aren't able to
5:40
Speaker 1: be married. So there's there's one sort of carve out
5:43
Speaker 1: exception for that, and it is that that priests who
5:48
Speaker 1: converted from the Anglican Church, who were ministers in the
5:52
Speaker 1: Anglican Church and are already married and then converted, can
5:55
Speaker 1: be priests in the Catholic Church. So that's still an
5:57
Speaker 1: open topic, Alex, that that a lot of people are
6:00
Speaker 1: going to be asking about in the coming days, will
6:03
Speaker 1: the next pope do anything about a mandatory celibacy for
6:06
Speaker 1: men who are you know, priests and perhaps want to
6:10
Speaker 1: be married, or married men who perhaps want to be
6:13
Speaker 1: priests and the obviously the other question is women and
6:18
Speaker 1: the possible question of ordination for them. But so still
6:22
Speaker 1: still there's I would say a growing edge there. Whether
6:26
Speaker 1: or not the next pope acts on that, I don't know,
6:28
Speaker 1: but it's certainly a conversation topic.
6:31
Speaker 2: By the way, your book is called Great American Prophets, Pope,
6:35
Speaker 2: Friends and Models of Christian life. And this is the
6:37
Speaker 2: other thing I feel like, as Christians, you don't really
6:41
Speaker 2: you think about the Catholic Church, but it doesn't ingratiate
6:44
Speaker 2: your life. Yet here do you find Christians and Catholics
6:47
Speaker 2: are mourning Pope Francis today.
6:49
Speaker 1: I do. I certainly, I certainly get the sense, you know,
6:54
Speaker 1: both locally here in Scranton, Pennsylvania, where I am northeastern Pennsylvania,
6:58
Speaker 1: which is historically a pretty Catholic like region. I'm not
7:01
Speaker 1: a native of here, I moved here, so I sort
7:04
Speaker 1: of still learning as I go. But also, you know,
7:07
Speaker 1: just looking at the news from around the country and
7:11
Speaker 1: indeed from around the world, there is an outpouring of support,
7:14
Speaker 1: not just from Catholics, not just from other Christian denominations,
7:18
Speaker 1: not just even from other people of faith, like many
7:22
Speaker 1: many faithful Jews and Muslims and Hindus and whatnot, but
7:26
Speaker 1: even from agnostics and atheists who looked at Pope Francis
7:30
Speaker 1: and said, Okay, I don't believe what he believes about
7:33
Speaker 1: God and about Jesus and about the Church, and yet
7:37
Speaker 1: I can appreciate what this man stands for. There are
7:40
Speaker 1: so many people who can look at him who looked
7:42
Speaker 1: at him in his life and said, he stands for
7:45
Speaker 1: the common good for all. He stands for outreach to
7:49
Speaker 1: the poor and the people on the margins. He stands
7:52
Speaker 1: for peace in the world. Whether you believe in God
7:55
Speaker 1: or not, it's a good thing to stand for peace
7:57
Speaker 1: in the world and to stand for civility, which we
8:01
Speaker 1: were lacking in a lot of ways. So I think
8:03
Speaker 1: Pope Francis was in many senses the conscience of the world.
8:08
Speaker 2: Now your VPM mission as well. So did you ever
8:11
Speaker 2: get any missions out to the Vatican or has your
8:14
Speaker 2: time at Scranton or in this field, as in the
8:18
Speaker 2: ministry taking you to the Vatican it all.
8:21
Speaker 1: So I've been to the Vatican twice, once here with
8:24
Speaker 1: the people at the University of Scranton with some members
8:26
Speaker 1: of our wonderful board of trustees, and once on my honeymoon.
8:32
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, my wife and I went
8:34
Speaker 1: there in twenty fifteen and we saw Pope Francis during
8:38
Speaker 1: one of the general audiences with you know, thousands of
8:40
Speaker 1: other people, and we're going back. A group of faculty
8:44
Speaker 1: and staff will be heading to Rome this June. And
8:48
Speaker 1: as you may know, this is part of what the
8:50
Speaker 1: Church calls a jubilee year. So every twenty five years
8:54
Speaker 1: the Church celebrates a jubilee year, and in fact Pope
8:57
Speaker 1: Francis so that those are called ordinary jublil so at
9:01
Speaker 1: the turn of the century twenty five fifty seventy five,
9:06
Speaker 1: so every twenty five is an ordinary Jubilee. But then
9:09
Speaker 1: a number of years ago twenty sixteen, Pope Frances called
9:12
Speaker 1: an extraordinary jubilee. That year the theme was mercy. This
9:16
Speaker 1: year the theme is hope. And you know, I hate
9:19
Speaker 1: to reduce, you know, any papacy to one or two words,
9:23
Speaker 1: but if I were, those would be two great words,
9:25
Speaker 1: because in many ways he was the Pope of mercy.
9:28
Speaker 1: There was a big editorial on the Vatican News website
9:30
Speaker 1: yesterday calling him the Pope of Mercy. And so this year,
9:35
Speaker 1: every year we do pilgrimage to Rome with faculty and staff.
9:38
Speaker 1: This year we're doing it in this Jubilee year of Hope.
9:41
Speaker 1: And so by the time we're there in June, there,
9:44
Speaker 1: in all likelihood will be a new pope, unless we
9:46
Speaker 1: have a historically long conclave on our hands. But we
9:50
Speaker 1: look forward to greeting the new Pope, whoever he is,
9:52
Speaker 1: and you know, we pledge whoever that is, our prayers
9:56
Speaker 1: and our loyalty. But it's always good to be in
10:00
Speaker 1: Rome because in a lot of ways that's sort of
10:02
Speaker 1: home base, headquarters of the church. So over the next
10:06
Speaker 1: few weeks, all these events that we're going to see
10:08
Speaker 1: sort of unfolding in Rome is going to be like
10:11
Speaker 1: a homecoming for Catholics, even if we're watching it on TV.
10:15
Speaker 2: I'm so glad by the way in your book. And
10:18
Speaker 2: we'll get to the length of the next pope, because
10:20
Speaker 2: I think they're going to pick some a little older
10:22
Speaker 2: actually believe or not, might be an eighty year old
10:24
Speaker 2: that becomes pope. We'll have to see if that actually happened.
10:27
Speaker 2: But because we've seen a twenty seven year run by
10:30
Speaker 2: Pope John Paul the Second, and a twelve year run
10:33
Speaker 2: and Benedict Tad what I bet it, I would say
10:35
Speaker 2: a ten year runner or something like that eight years,
10:38
Speaker 2: So it's been a wide range in my lifetime of
10:42
Speaker 2: different runs here. So we'll have to see. But I'm
10:44
Speaker 2: so glad you mentioned your book the twenty fifteen trip
10:48
Speaker 2: by Pope Francis to the United States. Is it me
10:51
Speaker 2: or was he treated like a rock star. When he
10:53
Speaker 2: came to America. I felt like it was sort.
10:55
Speaker 1: Of like the Beatles.
10:56
Speaker 2: I had to say the compare, but it felt like
10:58
Speaker 2: a rock star h in our soil.
11:00
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, he had massive Madison Square garden. What
11:02
Speaker 1: do you want? I mean, he was right where, right
11:04
Speaker 1: where Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. You know, we're playing
11:07
Speaker 1: the pope. The pope celebrated the Eucharist. So no, But seriously,
11:12
Speaker 1: I think Alex in one sense, he's treated like a
11:15
Speaker 1: rock star. He was treated like a rock star wherever
11:17
Speaker 1: he went. But we sort of being in the United States,
11:21
Speaker 1: were tuned into how it happens here. And I mean
11:24
Speaker 1: the book that I wrote was really focused had as
11:28
Speaker 1: its genesis the Historic Address to Congress, the Joint Session
11:32
Speaker 1: of Congress that he delivered. And in that address, so
11:35
Speaker 1: a pope has never done that before. In that address,
11:38
Speaker 1: he named what he called four Great Americans or four
11:42
Speaker 1: historic Americans, two of whom we were all pretty familiar with.
11:46
Speaker 1: You know, most Americans are pretty familiar with Abraham Lincoln
11:48
Speaker 1: and Martin Luther King Junior. But the other two that
11:51
Speaker 1: he named were Catholic figures name Lee, Dorothy Day and
11:55
Speaker 1: Thomas Merton, and they were two of the most important
11:57
Speaker 1: American Catholics of the twentieth century. Dorothy Day was the
12:01
Speaker 1: founder of the Catholic Worker movement and her cause for
12:04
Speaker 1: canonization to become a saint is currently ongoing in Rome.
12:08
Speaker 1: Pope Francis was a supporter of that. But the Catholic
12:12
Speaker 1: Worker movement is about enacting the corporal and spiritual works
12:17
Speaker 1: of mercy. So when I say that, what do I mean?
12:19
Speaker 1: I mean feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty,
12:21
Speaker 1: visiting the sick, in the imprison clothing the naked, burying
12:25
Speaker 1: the dead. That's what the Catholic Worker was and remains
12:28
Speaker 1: all about. And Thomas Merton was an associate of Dorothy Days.
12:33
Speaker 1: He was both of them were sort of converts to Catholicism,
12:38
Speaker 1: and Thomas Merton went from being sort of this party
12:42
Speaker 1: animal type of figure to a contemplative monk, became a
12:45
Speaker 1: Benedictine monk, and he he wrote one of the best selling,
12:49
Speaker 1: one of the best selling religious books of the of
12:52
Speaker 1: the twentieth century, the Seventh Story Mountain, and Dorothy Day
12:55
Speaker 1: wrote another best selling book, The Long Loneliness, really talking
12:59
Speaker 1: about their journeys. So Pope frances named these four great Americans,
13:04
Speaker 1: and what I tried to do in the book was
13:06
Speaker 1: say that really what binds them together is a particular
13:09
Speaker 1: blueprint that Pope Francis saw as important in becoming a
13:14
Speaker 1: good person. You know, not just for Christians, not just
13:17
Speaker 1: for Catholics, but all people of goodwill can follow in
13:21
Speaker 1: the footsteps of these four great Americans and say I'm
13:24
Speaker 1: going to be in solidarity with the poor, I'm going
13:27
Speaker 1: to work for racial justice, I'm going to work for
13:31
Speaker 1: inter religious dialogue, whatever the case may be. They have
13:37
Speaker 1: some sense of being models for us.
13:41
Speaker 2: Anything that my listeners are one leg up with Alex
13:44
Speaker 2: Rrett can do to help get this canonization happening. For
13:46
Speaker 2: Dorothy Day, it sounds like he was quite the role model.
13:50
Speaker 1: I think the best thing that we can all do
13:52
Speaker 1: is pray. You know, even if and see this is
13:56
Speaker 1: even if you're not a person of faith, you can
13:59
Speaker 1: send good wishes that this would happen. Pope Francis always
14:02
Speaker 1: said that whenever he was addressing you know, Catholics and
14:05
Speaker 1: other people people of no faith tradition, he would say
14:08
Speaker 1: please any Almost every time he spoke, he said, please,
14:11
Speaker 1: don't forget to pray for me, and then if there
14:13
Speaker 1: were if there were other people there, he would always say,
14:16
Speaker 1: and if you're not a person of faith, uh, send
14:19
Speaker 1: good thoughts, you know. So if you're a person of faith,
14:23
Speaker 1: pray for Dorothy Day's canonization. Pray that the next pope
14:27
Speaker 1: will continue to move this forward. Pray for Dorothy Day's intercession.
14:32
Speaker 1: She happens to be a particular favorite saint of mine.
14:35
Speaker 1: We my wife and I gave as a middle name
14:38
Speaker 1: to our son the name Day after after Dorothy Day.
14:41
Speaker 1: So pray for her intercession. But pray, you know, continue
14:45
Speaker 1: praying and good thoughts that that not only that her
14:48
Speaker 1: cause for canonization might go through, but that more people
14:51
Speaker 1: might be converted to being in solidarity with the poor
14:54
Speaker 1: and with those in greatest need.
14:56
Speaker 2: All right, I want to get to that because one
14:58
Speaker 2: of the biggest talking points that they had delivered message
15:02
Speaker 2: after message at the Vatican over the last few months,
15:04
Speaker 2: especially after Trump got elected, is the whole mass deportation thing.
15:09
Speaker 2: And I think we can all agree we don't want
15:11
Speaker 2: the violent illegals here. But is it surprising that he
15:14
Speaker 2: dipped into the politics the way he did.
15:19
Speaker 1: That's it was part of his style. So remember a
15:21
Speaker 1: few minutes ago, I was saying that different popes have
15:23
Speaker 1: different styles, and you know, I think that the last
15:30
Speaker 1: three popes, the ones that we've mentioned, have all, in
15:33
Speaker 1: their various ways done this. So I'm thinking about if
15:37
Speaker 1: we think about the spring of two thousand and three,
15:41
Speaker 1: So those sort of heady days right before the United
15:44
Speaker 1: States entered that war in Iraq and that invasion, and
15:49
Speaker 1: if you recall, President George W. Bush was summoned to Rome.
15:54
Speaker 1: He made a trip to Rome for a private meeting
15:56
Speaker 1: with Pope John Paul the Second, who at that point
15:58
Speaker 1: was very ill in his last five years or so.
16:01
Speaker 1: John Paul the Second had really been slowed by Parkinson's
16:05
Speaker 1: and other ailments. And yet John Paul the Second made
16:09
Speaker 1: a forceful message for peace. He said, this war that
16:13
Speaker 1: you're contemplating right now, the criteria for a just war
16:17
Speaker 1: or not being met. So if you do this, it's
16:19
Speaker 1: going to be an unjust war. And of course we
16:23
Speaker 1: know that that President Bush disregarded that, and nevertheless, that
16:29
Speaker 1: was John Paul the Second inserting himself in a political moment.
16:33
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we have a problem in the United
16:37
Speaker 1: States and at other places throughout the world when we
16:39
Speaker 1: hear the word politics, we think, oh partisan, we think
16:43
Speaker 1: of Okay, okay, here comes another Trump Biden debate about
16:48
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. Politics comes from the word polist,
16:52
Speaker 1: which means the people, the city. So Christianity and all
16:56
Speaker 1: faith traditions in fact, should be political by their very nature. Sure,
17:00
Speaker 1: because they have to do with the people. So Catholic
17:04
Speaker 1: social teaching, which is basically a series of documents. Modern
17:09
Speaker 1: Catholic social teaching, dates back to eighteen ninety one. Pope
17:12
Speaker 1: Leo the thirteenth throat a document called Raiream Navarum on
17:16
Speaker 1: the economy and workers' rights in the wake of the
17:19
Speaker 1: Industrial Revolution. That's a political document. Anytime the Pope's write
17:24
Speaker 1: about war, those are political statements. John the twenty third
17:28
Speaker 1: he wrote a document in nineteen sixty three, just a
17:30
Speaker 1: few months before he died, called pacham in Terris Peace
17:34
Speaker 1: on Earth in response to the Cold War. And that's
17:41
Speaker 1: well the Cuban missile crisis had, you know, is just
17:44
Speaker 1: in that time, and that's a political document. Pope Francis
17:48
Speaker 1: writing Laudato ci on care for our common Home. That's
17:51
Speaker 1: a political document. We know that, we know that all
17:54
Speaker 1: these things are political, but even Pope Benedict wrote about
17:56
Speaker 1: solidarity in a political way. So I think it's a
18:00
Speaker 1: good thing for popes to enter the political phray because
18:03
Speaker 1: they're world leaders. If we looked at them and said, oh,
18:06
Speaker 1: he's just a spiritual leader and he's just going to pray,
18:11
Speaker 1: well that's nice, and it's good to have prayers, as
18:13
Speaker 1: I just mentioned a few minutes ago. But if that's
18:15
Speaker 1: not accompanied by action and by political movements towards justice,
18:20
Speaker 1: then the pope is in a lot of ways abdicating
18:23
Speaker 1: his responsibility. All right.
18:25
Speaker 2: As much serious as he was, and by the way,
18:27
Speaker 2: I also believe that he was delivering the message. I
18:30
Speaker 2: believe he thought God wanted him to deliver. I think
18:33
Speaker 2: that's a whole part of this as well to the people.
18:36
Speaker 2: But as much of his serious as I love, the
18:39
Speaker 2: jovial'll be roll. We've been seeing of him smiling everywhere
18:42
Speaker 2: he went. He had this big smile, which is not
18:44
Speaker 2: like I don't remember Pope John Paul the Second smiling
18:48
Speaker 2: as much, maybe in his younger years, but I was
18:50
Speaker 2: in the older part of his run, right. But but Pope, friends,
18:53
Speaker 2: is all I see is all his smiles, and that
18:55
Speaker 2: makes me feel good. That he was a jovial pope
18:57
Speaker 2: and that what we needed for this time.
19:00
Speaker 1: Oh, I totally agree. Back in the middle of the
19:02
Speaker 1: last century, Pope John the twenty third, who I just
19:05
Speaker 1: mentioned as the author of pagamin Ter's he actually got
19:07
Speaker 1: the nickname the Smiling Pope, And you know, he was
19:10
Speaker 1: pope for a very short or not very short, but
19:12
Speaker 1: a pretty short time, just five years. Everybody thought he
19:15
Speaker 1: was going to be this transitional pope, and in fact
19:17
Speaker 1: he called the Second Vatican Council in that period of time.
19:20
Speaker 1: So he was the you know, probably the most probably
19:23
Speaker 1: the most consequential pope of the twentieth century as far
19:26
Speaker 1: as church history is concerned. But in a lot of ways,
19:29
Speaker 1: Pope Francis was very much like John the twenty third.
19:32
Speaker 1: He was always smiling, jubilant, jovial. He's the first pope
19:38
Speaker 1: that we ever saw, as far as I know, eat
19:41
Speaker 1: food on camera. You know, he was very much I
19:45
Speaker 1: picked up a copy of our local newspaper this morning
19:48
Speaker 1: here in Scranton, and it says on the cover of
19:49
Speaker 1: the People's Pope that was very much the case. He
19:54
Speaker 1: always wanted to be close to the people, and him
19:57
Speaker 1: having a sort of a jovial nature I think made
20:00
Speaker 1: it easier for him to do that. But it's even
20:04
Speaker 1: taken up before I was talking about him being a
20:06
Speaker 1: pope of firsts. Another first that he did was he
20:09
Speaker 1: was the first pope not to live in the Apostolic
20:11
Speaker 1: Palace in hundreds of years. He lived in those hotel
20:16
Speaker 1: rooms in the guest house Casa Santa Marta on the
20:18
Speaker 1: Vatican property where in point of fact, the cardinals will
20:21
Speaker 1: be staying as they arrive in Rome here in the
20:24
Speaker 1: coming days.
20:24
Speaker 2: Well I remember them ever having to steal up an
20:26
Speaker 2: apartment of the pope. That's how down to earth he was,
20:30
Speaker 2: you know. So he lived in an apartment basically while
20:32
Speaker 2: he was the pope. It's pretty down to earth if
20:34
Speaker 2: you asked me in pretty.
20:35
Speaker 1: Quol Well, well, they in fact they always see canon
20:38
Speaker 1: law says it has to be sealed up. But that
20:41
Speaker 1: might have been one of the first times. That's the
20:43
Speaker 1: first time I remember seeing it happen. It might have
20:44
Speaker 1: been the first time they actually recorded it happening. Put
20:47
Speaker 1: it that way.
20:48
Speaker 2: Now, there are probably some in the Catholic Church and
20:51
Speaker 2: some in the Christian circles that are worried that he
20:54
Speaker 2: was a little too progressive, or maybe making the Vatican
20:56
Speaker 2: more progressive. So where do they go from here? Are
20:58
Speaker 2: they going to try and find someone was going to
21:00
Speaker 2: be a more inclusive Vatican or a more you know,
21:04
Speaker 2: I'd say biblical, but buy the book if you will. Vatican.
21:06
Speaker 2: What are we looking at for the next ye.
21:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question. So here's what we know
21:14
Speaker 1: that in the in the immediate time, Pope Francis is
21:19
Speaker 1: responsible for appointing eighty percent of the cardinals who will
21:23
Speaker 1: appoint his who will elect his successor. Now they only
21:28
Speaker 1: need sixty seven percent two thirds for a successful election.
21:32
Speaker 1: So as we stand here, now we have one hundred
21:34
Speaker 1: and thirty five cardinals we're under the age of eighty
21:36
Speaker 1: who are eligible to vote in the conclave. Two thirds
21:39
Speaker 1: of that is ninety in change, they need ninety one
21:42
Speaker 1: votes to elect a pope. As far as my math goes,
21:46
Speaker 1: and I've tried to break down the college as much
21:49
Speaker 1: as I can, and the terms that I'm going to
21:52
Speaker 1: use are imperfect, so please forgive me. But the terms
21:54
Speaker 1: I'm going to use are liberal, conservative, and moderate. I
21:59
Speaker 1: count roughly sixty five liberal car and again these terms
22:04
Speaker 1: are not perfect. Sixty five liberal cardinals, forty nine conservative
22:11
Speaker 1: again quote unquote conservative cardinals, and twenty one either moderate
22:15
Speaker 1: or ambiguous hard to determine cardinals. So even if all
22:20
Speaker 1: twenty one of those cardinals voted with the liberals, they
22:23
Speaker 1: wouldn't have ninety one and the Conservatives would still be
22:27
Speaker 1: way off. So my sense is that whoever the successful candidate,
22:32
Speaker 1: is that there's going to be some amount of compromise there.
22:36
Speaker 1: All that aside. When Pope Francis was elected in twenty thirteen,
22:41
Speaker 1: remember every single cardinal in that room. Now there were
22:44
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifteen cardinals in twenty thirteen. Every single
22:47
Speaker 1: cardinal in that room had been appointed either by John
22:49
Speaker 1: Paul the Second or BENEDICTA sixteenth, and nobody would Nobody
22:53
Speaker 1: would say Pope frant as you've rightly raised so far, Alex,
22:56
Speaker 1: nobody would say, Pope Francis is sort of an ideological
23:00
Speaker 1: clone of Benedict or John Paul, and yet he himself
23:04
Speaker 1: was appointed by John Paul. So honestly, when we get
23:08
Speaker 1: in there, all bets are off because the way that
23:12
Speaker 1: a pope acts after he's been elected may not be
23:16
Speaker 1: consistent with the way he acted before he was elected.
23:18
Speaker 1: Here's another perfect example. When Joseph Ratzinger was elected pope
23:22
Speaker 1: in two thousand and five and took the name Benedict
23:24
Speaker 1: of sixteenth, he was by far and away the most
23:27
Speaker 1: well known cardinal in the world at the time. He
23:30
Speaker 1: had been Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of
23:32
Speaker 1: the Faith and had been responsible for really cracking down
23:36
Speaker 1: on a lot of more progressive theologians in the Catholic Church,
23:40
Speaker 1: and so everybody thought, oh, here comes a traditionalist, he's
23:43
Speaker 1: going to move the church back five hundred years. This,
23:46
Speaker 1: that and the other thing didn't do it. He was
23:50
Speaker 1: much more a pastoral figure than I think anybody was
23:53
Speaker 1: really banking on when he took office. He was open
23:59
Speaker 1: to many different groups of people and wasn't nearly as
24:03
Speaker 1: sort of radically traditionalists as I think people believed he
24:07
Speaker 1: would be. So all this is to say that the
24:11
Speaker 1: office itself, namely the office of the Pope, does something
24:15
Speaker 1: to the man who takes it. And that's kind of
24:18
Speaker 1: a mystery.
24:19
Speaker 2: All right, you're a director of ministry at Granton University
24:23
Speaker 2: watching the pope the last twelve years. That influenced the
24:26
Speaker 2: way you run your ministry? Or how how do you
24:30
Speaker 2: not mirror, but adapt your ministry to what he had.
24:34
Speaker 1: Freak to do with. Oh, absolutely that. I thank you
24:37
Speaker 1: for asking that question, because Hope Francis, he always said
24:42
Speaker 1: about bishops and priests, and I think you can say
24:44
Speaker 1: the same thing about lay ministers in the church as well,
24:48
Speaker 1: that they ought to have the smell of the sheep
24:52
Speaker 1: on them. In other words, if they spend a lot
24:54
Speaker 1: of time with their people, they're gonna they're gonna look, walk, talk,
24:58
Speaker 1: act like their people, and smell like their people. And boy,
25:03
Speaker 1: there is no better advice to a college campus minister
25:08
Speaker 1: than that, or any any minister in the church, because
25:11
Speaker 1: being close to the people, loving loving your people is
25:15
Speaker 1: a privilege. I mean, I love working. I have students,
25:19
Speaker 1: you know, laughing and joking around outside my office right now,
25:22
Speaker 1: as I do every day, and I love being with
25:24
Speaker 1: them on a daily basis. I also love being with
25:26
Speaker 1: the faculty and staff. That's part of the job as well.
25:29
Speaker 1: Being with the faculty and staff. I love that as well.
25:33
Speaker 1: But that is such a beautiful privilege. And what Pope
25:36
Speaker 1: Francis was getting at not just for people like me,
25:40
Speaker 1: but for all people in ministry in the church was
25:43
Speaker 1: really a message of love. Can you love the person
25:45
Speaker 1: who's sitting in front of you at any given time? Why?
25:49
Speaker 1: Because that's what Jesus did, plain and simple.
25:52
Speaker 2: Well, I was gonna ask you this, how when people
25:56
Speaker 2: enter your ministry, right when they when they come to
25:58
Speaker 2: your ministry? And how by the text are you versus
26:02
Speaker 2: real life experience? How do you make you know, combine
26:04
Speaker 2: both to make it a Christian life?
26:06
Speaker 1: If you want that, you just hit the nail on
26:09
Speaker 1: the head with that last part. It's always a both.
26:11
Speaker 1: And I think it's important to be well versed in
26:16
Speaker 1: the in the tradition because you can't just sort of
26:19
Speaker 1: spout off this, that and the other thing. Uh Like,
26:22
Speaker 1: it's you know, like you're just you know, take you know,
26:26
Speaker 1: seeing what throwing everything in the people don't.
26:27
Speaker 2: Like the fire and brimstone anymore, it feels like, right,
26:30
Speaker 2: so you got to have a different approach to it.
26:32
Speaker 1: I'll never take that approach because that that approach isn't
26:34
Speaker 1: isn't interested in in converting. Our interest is an interest
26:40
Speaker 1: is in conversion, and I mean for everybody, not conversion
26:43
Speaker 1: from one religion to another, but conversion to a more
26:45
Speaker 1: faithful way of life. And the way to do that
26:48
Speaker 1: is not tell people you're going to hell, you know
26:51
Speaker 1: what I mean? Uh So do you.
26:53
Speaker 2: Find that when people? Do you find atheists and agnostics
26:56
Speaker 2: walking into your ministry and saying, Hey, I want to
26:59
Speaker 2: learn more?
27:00
Speaker 1: Sometimes? Sure, absolutely, And somebody like Pope Francis is a
27:04
Speaker 1: great model because he was able to take the faith
27:08
Speaker 1: of the Church and put it out in such a
27:12
Speaker 1: way and present it in such a way that anybody
27:15
Speaker 1: could understand, and not just understand, but be attracted to it.
27:19
Speaker 1: People looked at Pope Francis and one of the enduring
27:22
Speaker 1: images of Pope Bill. Let me just admit point to
27:24
Speaker 1: a few enduring images of Pope Francis. Remember the day
27:27
Speaker 1: or two after he was elected he went to the
27:29
Speaker 1: front desk of that guest room and paid his bill,
27:31
Speaker 1: paid his hotel bill. I can relate to that, because
27:34
Speaker 1: I'll be traveling next week and at the end of
27:36
Speaker 1: my stay I'm going to have to go to the
27:38
Speaker 1: front desk and pay my hotel bill. I can relate
27:40
Speaker 1: to that. Pope. Another enduring image was when he hugged
27:44
Speaker 1: and kissed that man who has had that terribly disfigured
27:48
Speaker 1: face early in his pontificate. And anybody who saw it
27:51
Speaker 1: was moved maybe to tears and saying, what a beautiful gesture,
27:56
Speaker 1: what a humble man. That's something that's attracted to people.
28:00
Speaker 1: You know, you don't You don't attract people to the
28:03
Speaker 1: Gospel by giving them this or that rule. And there
28:07
Speaker 1: are rules in the church. There's a whole set of
28:09
Speaker 1: law in the church we call canon law. But that's
28:11
Speaker 1: not what attracts people. What attracts people is these these
28:15
Speaker 1: images and periods of love and mercy and compassion.
28:20
Speaker 2: I am so glad you bring this up because I
28:22
Speaker 2: feel like, no matter who you are, when the popemobile
28:25
Speaker 2: rolls past you, you feel that's sort of or a
28:28
Speaker 2: passing by you, no matter who's in the popemobile. So
28:31
Speaker 2: what is it about the pope that brings people to
28:34
Speaker 2: the streets of New York that wants to see the
28:36
Speaker 2: pope passed by them?
28:38
Speaker 1: What is it? What?
28:39
Speaker 2: It's been that way since I can remember? But what
28:41
Speaker 2: is it? What can you explain it?
28:44
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I can explain it because I
28:46
Speaker 1: think there's something that's not tangible that's there. I think
28:49
Speaker 1: part of it is another thing that we call the
28:51
Speaker 1: pope in the Catholic Church is the Holy Father. And
28:53
Speaker 1: it's not just a figure of speech. It's because the
28:56
Speaker 1: Pope is meant to be like a father figure, a
28:58
Speaker 1: mother figure, a revere elder in the family, somebody that
29:02
Speaker 1: we can look up to. And that's part of the
29:05
Speaker 1: reason why now we feel such a loss when Pope
29:08
Speaker 1: Francis has died, because he's somebody that we looked up to,
29:11
Speaker 1: that we felt was part of our family for the
29:13
Speaker 1: last twelve years. So that whoever the Pope is, when
29:16
Speaker 1: he visits your country, he's part of the family, and
29:19
Speaker 1: you want to welcome him. You want to sort of
29:21
Speaker 1: roll out the red carpet for him and let him
29:24
Speaker 1: know that he's welcome, that he is your father in
29:29
Speaker 1: a sense. So I think that's why. I think that's
29:32
Speaker 1: why when he comes to New York or Philadelphia, or
29:34
Speaker 1: Los Angeles or Denver or you know, Chicago, all these
29:38
Speaker 1: places the Pope has come in the past, that's why
29:41
Speaker 1: it's such a big deal, because we are welcoming home
29:44
Speaker 1: a member of our family. And in fact, you know,
29:47
Speaker 1: Catholics believe that the Pope, you know that Peter was
29:52
Speaker 1: handpicked by Jesus to be the rock of the church.
29:55
Speaker 1: Peter Petraus means rock. Sea foss is. His name means rock.
30:00
Speaker 1: He was given this name by Jesus so that the
30:02
Speaker 1: pope now the successor of Peter, whoever the next pope
30:05
Speaker 1: will be, is the rock of the of the church.
30:08
Speaker 1: And we when we see that, we are drawn to
30:10
Speaker 1: it because that's what holds us steady firm in our faith.
30:14
Speaker 2: All Right. I got to ask this because over the
30:16
Speaker 2: weekend I was talking with Easter. It was Easter weekend.
30:19
Speaker 2: And by the way, I do feel like there was
30:21
Speaker 2: a power that he wanted to is by all his
30:23
Speaker 2: health situations, he made it to Easter one more year.
30:26
Speaker 2: And I my dad had some health issues around Easter
30:31
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three before he passed, but he made
30:33
Speaker 2: it that last Easter. You know, I feel like there's
30:34
Speaker 2: a power to see your last Eastern that these both
30:37
Speaker 2: of these men wanted to see it. You know, I
30:39
Speaker 2: wanted to be there one more time. So there's a
30:42
Speaker 2: willpower to that. I don't know if you'd agree with
30:43
Speaker 2: that or not, but I think there is.
30:45
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely. And you know what I'll remember most and
30:51
Speaker 1: this is, you know, he could have died on any
30:54
Speaker 1: day and I would have had you know, very vivid
30:56
Speaker 1: memories of the Pope, but I'll certainly remember the image
30:59
Speaker 1: of him after he delivered the annual Easter blessing from
31:03
Speaker 1: the Lojia overlooking Saint Peter's Basilica, which we'll see again
31:06
Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks when the new Pope is elected.
31:08
Speaker 1: He'll appear on that same in that same space where
31:11
Speaker 1: he just saw Francis two days ago. After that blessing,
31:16
Speaker 1: he was taken down to the square and driven around
31:19
Speaker 1: one final time in the popemobile, and there were two
31:23
Speaker 1: young young kids, one baby and one young child who
31:26
Speaker 1: is battling cancer, who were sort of lifted towards the
31:30
Speaker 1: Pope and he gave them his blessing. Boy, that is
31:33
Speaker 1: an image that will remain with me really hopefully forever, because.
31:37
Speaker 2: Of sudden the baby that actually dressed up like the Pope.
31:39
Speaker 2: Is that the one you're talking is there's a baby
31:41
Speaker 2: that was actually dressed up like the Pope and handed
31:43
Speaker 2: them which is pretty interesting.
31:46
Speaker 1: Past but bcically Sunday were handed out. He blessed him
31:56
Speaker 1: and that was part of we was just trying to
31:59
Speaker 1: be people moment for me and I think for millions
32:03
Speaker 1: of people who watched it, but The significance of him
32:05
Speaker 1: dying on Easter Monday is really very significant because Christians
32:14
Speaker 1: believe that Easter commemorates the resurrection of Christ, which is
32:18
Speaker 1: the salvation of the world. And I think that's the
32:22
Speaker 1: message that Pope Francis would want to be continued to
32:25
Speaker 1: be spread and shared, all right.
32:28
Speaker 2: And the other thing over the weekend was I also
32:31
Speaker 2: believe that God and Jesus, yes, he died for our sins,
32:36
Speaker 2: but more so, he died for us to use the
32:39
Speaker 2: talents that he gave us. Am I right in that, Like,
32:41
Speaker 2: it's not just not just going by what he preached,
32:43
Speaker 2: but he gave us talents to keep going and outliving
32:47
Speaker 2: the number thirty three friends got on thirty three now,
32:49
Speaker 2: so I feel like there's a lot of power and
32:51
Speaker 2: not just dying for our sins, but he he gave
32:54
Speaker 2: us so much more than that. Am I right?
32:56
Speaker 1: Absolutely every one of us has lessings and gifts from God,
33:03
Speaker 1: whether we acknowledge a creator or not that, but Christians
33:07
Speaker 1: certainly say these are gifts that come from God that
33:09
Speaker 1: we need to share with the world. And Jesus himself
33:12
Speaker 1: said love one another, and that's something that we can
33:16
Speaker 1: all do regardless of our gifts, by by being present
33:20
Speaker 1: to other people, by being caring of other people. Uh,
33:25
Speaker 1: And I think I think that's something that Pope Francis
33:28
Speaker 1: was constantly calling us to, that we have these gifts
33:31
Speaker 1: and we have to tap them.
33:34
Speaker 2: Now. And people are listening to this. And I'm goode
33:36
Speaker 2: on having a kid that goes to Grant University. You're
33:39
Speaker 2: about to how can they get in touch with you
33:41
Speaker 2: and say, hey, I want to be part of doctor
33:42
Speaker 2: Kosaki's ministry.
33:45
Speaker 1: Well, if you're coming to the University of Scranton, check
33:47
Speaker 1: us out. We're in the di Naples Student Center on
33:50
Speaker 1: the second floor. And uh, you know, I can more
33:54
Speaker 1: than happy to you know, share my email address with you,
33:57
Speaker 1: Alex and you can put it out there. And I'm
33:59
Speaker 1: always for people to get in touch with me. And
34:02
Speaker 1: and you know, swing by, swing by my office. All
34:04
Speaker 1: of us here in the Campus Ministry office. We have
34:06
Speaker 1: an open door policy and we hope that we hope
34:10
Speaker 1: that as many people as possible will will come by.
34:13
Speaker 2: All right, Dan, doctor Kasaki, thank you so much. And
34:16
Speaker 2: one more thing I have to ask this because you're
34:18
Speaker 2: in Scranton. Yeah, did present by an ever visit campus?
34:23
Speaker 1: Not well, now, I've only been here for three years.
34:25
Speaker 1: He certainly has been to the University of Scranton. He
34:28
Speaker 1: has an honorary doctor from here, from many, many years ago.
34:31
Speaker 1: I can say that from from the house where I live,
34:34
Speaker 1: I can see the childhood home where he grew up
34:37
Speaker 1: sort of from my front porch from a distance. He visited.
34:41
Speaker 1: He visited town a couple of times while I was here,
34:44
Speaker 1: but to the best of my knowledge, in the last
34:46
Speaker 1: three years that I've been here on campus, he didn't.
34:48
Speaker 1: He hasn't come to campus.
34:49
Speaker 2: And you say you moved there. Did you ever think
34:52
Speaker 2: that God bring you to Scranton, Like, where were you
34:54
Speaker 2: from before that?
34:55
Speaker 1: Originally I'm originally from Connecticut and no, but before so,
35:00
Speaker 1: before I worked at the University of Scranton, I work,
35:02
Speaker 1: I taught theology at another university here in town. And
35:05
Speaker 1: when I came for the interview here, I, you know,
35:08
Speaker 1: very much, was reliant on GPS to get me here
35:10
Speaker 1: because I couldn't even find Northeastern Pennsylvania on a map.
35:14
Speaker 1: So I was very, very grateful for that opportunity and
35:18
Speaker 1: very grateful to be here at the University of Scranton
35:20
Speaker 1: with such wonderful colleagues and students.
35:23
Speaker 2: Well, I got the feeling your ministry is built on
35:25
Speaker 2: love and understanding and not you know, all the other
35:28
Speaker 2: stuff that might might happen in another mistry. You're built
35:30
Speaker 2: on a certain kind of love and understand that I
35:34
Speaker 2: feel like you bring to this.
35:35
Speaker 1: I hope, so, I hope. So that's that's what we're
35:38
Speaker 1: here for.
35:39
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, doctor Kosaki, thank you Dan for everything
35:42
Speaker 2: and for joining me today, and I'd love to have
35:44
Speaker 2: you back on as we go in this process anytime.
35:47
Speaker 1: Alex, thank you so much for having
35:48
Speaker 2: Me and thanks for joining the One Leg Up Network
35:51
Speaker 2: today as we honor Pope Prints