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Legally Brunette: Ellen Greenberg - Suicide or Homicide? · Legally Brunette

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to a new episode of Legally Brunette.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: with Shane Simpson. First of all, just a reminder to
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: everyone that we are now on our own feed, so
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: when we have weekly episodes they will go on to
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: our new own Legally Brunette feed. So please make sure that,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: if you haven't done so already, make sure that you
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: find us wherever you listen to your podcast, make sure
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: you follow us, leave a review if you would like
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: join the community, Join the community. All right, We're going
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: to do a few updates first before we go into
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: the Ellen Greenberg case. First of all, I know that
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: you've probably seen Diddy in the news again, so if
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: you do, remember that the jury acquitted Combs of racketeering
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: and sex trafficking charges back in July, but convicted him
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: on two of the lesser charges which we're transporting former
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: girlfriends for prostitution. The judge Supermanian sentenced Sean Ditty Coombs
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: just recently to fifty months in prison and find him
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: five hundred thousand dollars and ordered five years of supervised release.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Before he was sentenced, Comb's addressed the judge begging for
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: mercy and apologizing for his sick actions. You know, I
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: also saw him. I don't know if you saw this,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: but I also saw that his defense team made a
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: like a montage, like a video what of him, like
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: being with his family. I think they were trying.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: To show they're trying to make him like a human.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like, yeah, they're trying to humanize them. So apparently
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: they showed some video montage of him, you know, with
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: like his kids and being a dad. It's like, forget
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: about all that other shady stuff that he was involved.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: In, just as the real trial right here.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: So, prosecutors had pushed for more than eleven years, while
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: the defense sought fourteen months, which would have equaled the
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: time he had already served. Since Combs has been in
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: custody since September of twenty twenty four, that would have
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: been time served. He was already done fourteen months, so
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: obviously his defense was pushing for the amount of time
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: he's already served. He will receive credit for over a
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: year that he's served, but however, he's still going to
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: have to serve the fifty months.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Fifty months do they say, like when he's eligible for
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  Speaker 2: parole or any any early.
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  Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that, but usually you know,
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  Speaker 1: just based upon just what we know in general terms,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: most people serve about half of their sentence unless.
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  Speaker 2: It's a federal federal crimes crime, right, Yeah, I think
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  Speaker 2: he's obligated to serve like eighty Either way, it's not enough.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: It's only a couple of years. Really, three more years
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  Speaker 2: at the most.
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  Speaker 1: I also read today, right before we started doing this podcast,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: I saw an article that said that he had already
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: booked a speaking engagement prior to his sentencing that I
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: guess he was so sure that he was gonna, you know,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: get released. Yeah, he had, he already had a speaking engagement.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: That clearly he already had everyone signed the NBA's new party, right.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: So that's where we're at with Diddy. Also, if you
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: haven't listened yet, we did do an episode on the
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: yogurt shop murders, which was in the city of Austin.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: This was back in nineteen ninety one, and we were
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: talking about when we just recently did this episode, about
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: how there was some DNA evidence. You remember, at the
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: end of the episode of the yogurt shot murders, we
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: talked about how there was some DNA evidence and I
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: had read that the FBI had tested it and they
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: felt like they knew who it was, but they weren't
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: giving that information.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, privacy concern.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: We were wondering right what that was about. And then
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: lo and behold, right after we released that episode, there
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: came all this new information that they had solved this crime,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: which I have never seen happen. But the timing of
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: it was impeccable.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: So I think we cause an outrage we did. I
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: think everyone was, Okay, okay, we'll release it.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Everyone listens to legally Brunette and then they were just
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: they were just like we.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Found it like this iscpted, Everyone called their congressman and
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: it was all exactly squared away.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: So good job Shane making things happen in the in
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: the true crime world. So in June of twenty twenty five,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Detective Daniel Jackson he determined that a thirty eight cartridge
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: that was found in a drain at the scene of
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: the I can't believe it yogurt had not been submitted
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: into the National Integrated Ballistic Information Network in many years,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: and that the software had greatly improved. So in July
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: of twenty twenty five, they received a hit to an
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  Speaker 1: unsolved nineteen ninety eight murder in Kentucky. In August to
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, Detective Jackson requested a y STR DNA
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: search from all labs in the US that kept y
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: STR profiles, and the South Carolina State Lab was the
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  Speaker 1: only lab that found a complete y STR match from
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: a nineteen ninety Greenville, South Carolina sexual assault and murder.
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  Speaker 1: The profile belonged to known serial killer and rapist Robert
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Eugene Brashers. Robert Eugene Brashers committed suicide back in nineteen
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  Speaker 1: ninety nine with the same make and model of weapon
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  Speaker 1: used to shoot Amy Errors, which was one of the
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  Speaker 1: girls that was murdered in the Yogurt Shot murders, with
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  Speaker 1: a three eighty pistol. Detective Jackson also learned that on
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  Speaker 1: December eighth of nineteen ninety one, less than forty eight
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  Speaker 1: hours after the Yogurt shot murders, Brasher's was stopped by
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  Speaker 1: Border patrol at a westbound checkpoint between El Paso, Texas
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  Speaker 1: and Las Cruces, New Mexico. He was driving a stolen
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: car out of Georgia and was in possession of a
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  Speaker 1: thirty eight pistol. We have confirmed that this is the
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  Speaker 1: same gun that he used to commit suicide in nineteen
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  Speaker 1: ninety nine, as the serial numbers match.
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  Speaker 2: So oh wow, So there we go. Yeah, so the
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  Speaker 2: bullets matched.
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  Speaker 1: Right, that's what they said, and the DNA matched, So.
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  Speaker 2: All the way back in early nineties they had that evidence.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Well they saved the bullet right right, but they couldn't.
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  Speaker 2: They didn't match it until more recently.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Wow, that's crazy. It just goes to show you there's
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: so much room for air, unfortunately.
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  Speaker 1: And it goes to show you how how how scientific
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: things can be, and how the science is constantly improving,
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  Speaker 1: and that things that couldn't be solved years and years
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: ago now when you take a second look, right, because
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  Speaker 1: they can be. And it's also did they hold onto
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: the evidence? Did they preserve it correctly? Can retest the DNA?
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: All right, let's move on. This is a new Hulu
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: series called The Death of Ellen Greenberg, and the big
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: question that looms over this case was did Ellen Greenberg
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  Speaker 1: commit suicide or was it a murder? I will tell
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: you first of all, I watched the series. It's a
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: three parter on Hulu. It's called Death and Apartment six
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  Speaker 1: oh three. What Happened to Ellen Greenberg? I watched it
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  Speaker 1: twice actually, because you always miss things the first time,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: and I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: It's like I watched the time you thought it was
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  Speaker 2: suicide the same time you watched you thought it was
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  Speaker 2: a murder.
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  Speaker 1: It's like, I watch it and I think one way,
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  Speaker 1: and then I'm like, I'm gonna watch it again, and
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  Speaker 1: then I just I don't know. We're just gonna go
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: through it because this is a convoluted, complex case, and honestly,
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  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it reminds me of
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: just like the Karen Reid case, where the only people
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: that know what happened don't speak don't speak, And I
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  Speaker 1: don't know if we'll we'll ever actually know what happened,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: but we're going to talk about it. So let's just
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  Speaker 1: do a brief synopsis what we do.
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  Speaker 2: That's what we do. We did we unsolve We don't
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: solve mysteries. We don't we talk about unsolved mystery.
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  Speaker 1: We talk about them, we dissect it, we give opinions,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: and then.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: And then it'll get solved and then someone else will
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: follow it podcast.
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  Speaker 1: So let's do a brief synopsis of this case if
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: you haven't heard about it. In January of twenty eleven,
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  Speaker 1: a first grade teacher named Ellen green Bird was found
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  Speaker 1: dead with twenty stab wounds in her kitchen in a
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  Speaker 1: Philadelphia apartment.
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  Speaker 2: First of all, okay, right there, you think murder.
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  Speaker 1: Right, And I will tell you I didn't know a
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  Speaker 1: lot about this case.
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  Speaker 2: By it.
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  Speaker 1: I had heard of it before. And when I say
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: I had heard of it, I mean I saw headlines, right.
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  Speaker 1: And when you see a headline and the headline is
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  Speaker 1: stab twenty times, suicide or murder, you say, well, she
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  Speaker 1: was clearly, yeah, murdered, because how does someone stab themselves
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: twenty times? But we're clearly going to get into that.
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  Speaker 1: After breaking down a latched door, Sam Goldberg, Ellen's fiance,
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  Speaker 1: discovered her body with a ten inch long kitchen knife
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  Speaker 1: sticking out of her chest and stab wounds to her
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  Speaker 1: back and also to her head. At the scene, police
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  Speaker 1: shocked all of Ellen's family and friends when they ruled
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  Speaker 1: her death as suicide. This is immediately like, this is
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  Speaker 1: not an in depth investigation.
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  Speaker 2: This is at this point it doesn't need to be.
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  Speaker 2: If you see all those wounds, you gotta be quick
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  Speaker 2: to assume.
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  Speaker 1: Well, let's let's just take it back a step, because
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  Speaker 1: I don't think they knew that there were twenty stab
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  Speaker 1: wounds until the medical examiner did the autopsy later.
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  Speaker 2: So they walk in and they see blood everywhere, knife wounds,
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  Speaker 2: and they think their first thought is suicide.
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  Speaker 1: What department is this? Well, let's go through it again.
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  Speaker 1: We gotta take a deep dive. So after police removed
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  Speaker 1: her body, a professional crime scene cleaning company wipe down
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  Speaker 1: the kitchen thoroughly. The next day. I believe it was
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  Speaker 1: the next.
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  Speaker 2: Day crime scene cleaning.
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  Speaker 1: It was a crime scene.
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  Speaker 2: It wasn't like, let's lene housekeepers. We need Yeah, I
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  Speaker 2: need it.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: I need that company.
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  Speaker 2: It's not cutting it. What we got.
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  Speaker 1: We got a lot of kids and a lot of dogs. Then,
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  Speaker 1: just days later, during her funeral, the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's
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  Speaker 1: office ruled the case of homicide. Then, inexplicably, four months later,
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  Speaker 1: Ellen's cause of death was switched back to suicide. The
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  Speaker 1: city of Philadelphia closed the case without further investigation, and
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg's bizarre and tragic death is the subject of
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: what we just talked about, the ABC News Studios docuseries
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Death and apartment six' oh three. What happened to Ellen Greenberg?
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  Speaker 1: All right, let's start with a timeline of events and
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: let's go through this. So we first we have to
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: talk about Ellen and Sam's relationship. So back in two
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: thousand and seven, Ellen met her fiance Sam Goldberg through
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: a mutual friend and they went on a blind date.
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  Speaker 1: After three years of dating, Sam proposed to Ellen on
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  Speaker 1: the beach during a trip to California, and Ellen and
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  Speaker 1: Sam moved to an apartment in Mannayank, Philadelphia together. This
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: is still where I was. Still Back in twenty ten
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  Speaker 1: and the month leading up to her death, Ellen's parents
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: and friends began to notice the significant change in her behavior. Ellen,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: who had always been cheerful and composed, became increasingly anxious
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  Speaker 1: and stressed. When questioned about these changes, Ellen attributed her
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: anxiety to work pressures and the stress of planning her wedding,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: which was scheduled for August.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Of that year.
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  Speaker 1: In December of twenty ten, her anxiety had reached a
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: point where she even expressed a desire to quit her job.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: You know, she did this multiple times. They showed text
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: messages in the series where she's she's texting her mom,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: and she's texting her fiance saying how much she hates
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: her job and how stressful it is, you know, and
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: it is. It is really hard to have a job.
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  Speaker 1: I taught high school for four years before I went
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: to law school, and I would tell you that was
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: my least favorite job out of all the jobs I
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: have had. It was stressful teaching. I taught high school.
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  Speaker 1: She's teaching first grade. But you know, you know her
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: colleagues and the other people in the school.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: Or was it a newfound career, a new school maybe,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: you know, a lot of changes, right, getting married, So
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of reasons for her to be stressed.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't question her level of stress. I
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: think she was clearly stressed out by this job. And
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: you know what bothered me when she would text her
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: fiance and say how much she disliked her job and
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: that she wanted to quit. He would say things like,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: you're not a quitter, and that bothered me.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: That was his way of trying to motivate here, like
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: you're better. Yeah, but that's not the that's not listening
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  Speaker 2: to her problem.
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  Speaker 1: Right, And I just felt like she's clearly, I mean,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: this isn't just like I had a bad day. To me,
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  Speaker 1: it was she was spiraling, and she was becoming increasingly
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: depressed and increasingly upset. And you know, I don't know
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: if there's other things. There's speculation that maybe there were
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: other things going on in their relationship that was adding
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: to her stress that she just didn't want to talk about.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: But the only thing that she was verbalizing to anyone
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: was how stressful her job was. And I it just
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: it makes me sad because I feel like people missed
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: the the mark on how clearly sad she was. And
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: this is a young girl. I mean, she graduate from college.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: She's clearly intelligent and talented.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: She got as far as being able to get her
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: teaching credential.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Right, I mean, she could find another job easily. I
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: just I wish the fiance was like, if you're that miserable,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: it's not worth it. You should you know, we should
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: do something and you should find something else.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: I feel like you're trying to teach me something.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so are you listening to what I'm saying?
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Be stressed?
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm always stressed. I'm always stressed, all right.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Duly noted she.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Was expressing a desire to quit her job, And then
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: she also said she wanted to move back home with
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: her parents, which is another kind of telling factor that
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: she's supposed to get married to Sam coming up, and
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: she's saying she's asking her parents if she can move
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: back home. So I don't know how how that works
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: and what she had in her mind or what was
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: going on that she is engaged, she's planning a wedding,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: she's getting married soon, but.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: She sounds like she has anyone to talk to, well
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: her mom, you know, well at least her close what
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: should be her closest fiance, right.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: She says in a text to her parents, I want
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: to leave this place, get me out. Shortly thereafter, Ellen
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: had also asked a cousin who lived in the Philadelphia
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: area if she could temporarily move into the cousin's home
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: and stay with her family. When asked if her fiance
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: would also be joining her, Ellen did not respond. As
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Ellen's anxiety continued to escalate, she saw a psychiatrist on
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: three different occasions who prescribed her klonipin and ambient. You know,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Ambien's a sleep aid and Clonipin's a type of anti
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: anxiety medication. Ellen initially reported to our loved ones that
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: the medication seemed effective and that she felt better. Now
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: we move on to twenty eleven, Ellen texted her mom, Sandra,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: I'm starting the meds. I know you don't understand, but
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I can't keep living with feeling this way. She then
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: saw her psychiatrist, doctor Ellen Berman, and the notes from
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: the visit say that she wants things in control my
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: whole life. She's been a hard worker, she's anxious that
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: she's not sleeping. Her job sucks. So again it all
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: goes back to those kid her career, Oh yes, and
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: those first greaders. Her psychiatrist also mentions that she never
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: revealed that there was any issues with her fiance. She
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: always spoke always the anxiety was always work related as
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: far as what she was expressing expressing. In January of
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: twenty eleven, Ellen saw psychiatrist doctor Ellen Berman again and
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: the notes from that visit said she wants to quit,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: but mom and fiance don't want her to. She can
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: get out of contract with two weeks notice when she
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: starts to work on something and she starts thinking about
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: everything else, and she's not suicidal. So those are the
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: notes from the psychiatrists. This is shortly before her death.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Then on January nineteenth, Ellen saw the psychiatrist once more.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: This was her third visit. I know she had three
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: visits with the psychiatrists before the incident happens. And the
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: notes from the visit say Ellen is way better, She
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: feels seventy five percent better. Agrees she should just get
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: through till June, which would be the end of the
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: school year, right right, And she tends to walk around
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: compulsive neatning up. That's a mean, that's like a nervous reaction.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I do that if I have anxiety. It's like
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: you can't sit still. You have to constantly be doing things.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Have you ever noticed when you're mad at me, I
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: clean the house?
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: No, but I noticed that you never noticed that I
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: noticed that I clean the house when.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: You're mad at me. No, you go in the bed
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: and look at Instagram and then I'm doing laundry. Oh
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: my gosh, So I can relate, Okay.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: So January twenty second to twenty eleven, Ellen sent out
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: her save the dates for her upcoming wedding, which was
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: going to happen on August thirteenth of twenty eleven. Her
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: friend also had an upcoming wedding and they went shopping
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: for bridesmaid's dresses that day. While looking for a bridesmaid's dress,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Ellen began crying and told her friend, I'm so sorry.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: I know I'm not myself, but I'll get it together.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Doesn't sound like seventy five percent. No.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: January twenty six, twenty eleven. So this is four days
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: after she goes shopping for bridesmaid's dresses with her and
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: she's obviously not doing well. She's crying, she's saying she's
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: going to get herself together. This is the day of
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: her death. So for context, there was a huge snowstorm
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: that day. They call it a nor easter. I never
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: heard of that before. Have you heard of that before?
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: A nor' easter snow? I saw that multiple times in
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: articles and when they.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Were talking about like where it comes from, like northeast
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: or something.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Like that, I don't know. At seven am, this is
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: the day of her death. At seven am, Ellen spoke
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: to her mother. At twelve pm, Ellen received a text
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: from a friend, Yeah, you are getting out early. This
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: is in reference to the school closing early because of
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: the snow, and she replied with quote, thank goodness. At
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: one point fifteen.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: She left her job, So thank goodness. In reference to
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: having a short work.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, having a short day. Right at one twenty six,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Ellen stopped for gas and topped off her tank. You know.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: And I've heard some people say like, if you knew
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: you were going to commit suicide, why would you fill
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: your gas tank up or something like that.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know that she knew she would, right,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: And assuming it was a suicide, she contemplates it probably
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: regularly throughout the day, some days more than others. Right,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: But she's not thinking like, I'm going to kill myself
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: on Tuesday evening, you know, if there's a snorrestorm when
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: we get out early. But first I gotta go grocery shopping.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, they don't think like that. I don't imagine.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: So then at two thirty she's in her apartment and
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: she remotely enters the grades for her first grade students.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Then at three forty seven pm, Ellen sends her final text.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: At four forty five pm, and I think this is
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: I think we should hold onto this time period. Four
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: forty five pm, Ellen uses her laptop. I don't know
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: does Ellen use her laptop? Someone uses her laptop?
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, her laptop is used.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Her laptop is used at four forty five pm.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: In her like, like, in what fashion does it used?
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I think they just I think they
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: just know. I don't know how it was used, but forensically,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, you can someone use the laptop. At
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: four forty five pm, Sam Goldberg, Ellen's fiance leaves the
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: couple's home, and surveillance at their apartment building captures Sam
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: entering the on site GEM. Now we know in the
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: apartment that they live in that there are there is
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: security in the lobby, okay, so you can see him
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: get off the elevator at that time time cameras cameras
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: that security. Yeah, well security cameras. Okay, you can see
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: him get off the elevator and go to the gym.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: So you know that he left the apartment around four
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: forty five and he does go to the gym. Then
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: at five thirty PM, the cameras catch him exiting the
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: GEM on the first floor of the apartment complex and
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: then he returns to the apartment. When he returns to
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: the apartment at five thirty, he realizes he can't enter
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: because the latch was locked from the inside. So despite
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: using his key and banging on the door, Ellen would
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: not respond or unlock it. And you know what I'm
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: talking about. With one of those latches, it's that swing
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: latch like.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: The old ones were like a chain, right, This is
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: like a latch that only from the inside could be locked,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: and usually you can open it a little bit, if
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: at all.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: So from five thirty to five forty two pm, Sam
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: repeated calls Ellen and sends her text. Also, they interviewed
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: another couple that lives on that same floor and the
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: only sound or disturbance they heard was Sam.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Trying to bust through the door trying to.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Get into the apartment. Okay, so here are some texts
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: that he's sent. Hello, open the door. What are you doing?
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: I'm getting pissed. Hello, you better have an excuse? What
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: the ah? You have no idea? So those are the
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: texts that he's sending.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I have an issue with this. Okay, maybe it's premature
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: to break this down, but if you're not answering the door,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: I've learned in life, if someone's like not answering the door,
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: they're running late. The first thing you do is see
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: if they're okay. So if I'm banging on the door,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: and you're going to answering. I'm gonna get frustrated, But
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: I'm also gonna think, are you laying in a pull
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: of blood or something like? This guy is getting pissed
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: at her, like like she's refusing to open the door
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: for him. Is that normal behavior for them?
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: Well?
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know, And that's a good question, and that's
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: something that probably should be analyzed. Is he's not saying
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: are you okay?
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Or why aren't you opening the door?
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not calling her mom and saying have you
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: talked to Ellen? Is she okay?
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: He's pissed, right, He could also just assume she's asleep.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: I mean that would be well.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: I guess also maybe he's thinking, why did she do
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: the swing last right?
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Right? He knows she's inside or someone's inside because it's
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: locked from the inside, but he's mad at her like
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: like she's refusing.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Well, then that's a good that's an interesting observation or
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: question because did they get in a fight before he
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: left the apartment. I don't know, because is he thinking that.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: She did the lock right? Right? If they had an
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: ongoing issue, then it would make sense like you're ignoring
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: me open the door, like, this isn't what we do,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: but that's I don't know.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: So then after sending these texts, Sam then went downstairs
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: again to the lobby and he asked Phil Hamton, the
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: door man, to help him break the lock. Phil told
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: him that he wasn't allowed to leave his post. So
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: at this time, Sam, this.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Is even another problem. Did he go to the doorman
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: and say something might be wrong she's not opened the
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: door or he I mean, so far, you're acting like
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: he's saying, she's mad at me and won't open the door.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Can he help me break the lock? Right?
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: So, you're saying if he was truly concerned about her
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: safety and health, he could have said you need to
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: call nine one one, because she says that would.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Have been if he had, if he had concerns for her,
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: that would be I think a typical responsive like she's
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: not opening what's going on? Instead, it's more like, at
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: least from what you just read, he's saying, she's she
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: won't open the door for me. Can you break the lock?
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, he does ask that's odd the door man.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying he's guilty. I'm just talking about that
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: behavior isn't it wouldn't be typical.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: So the doorman, Phil, who they also interview on the HULUCI,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: tells him that he's not allowed to leave his post.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: I guess they had changed for this apartment complex. They
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: had changed up some things in the security or close.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it would make sense. He's like, if I leave here,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: then I compromise the front door, which is what his
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: assignment is.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: So at five point forty four, neighbors heard Sam call
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Ellen's name out several times. At six pm, Sam goes
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: downstairs again to request help from Phil, but Phil tells
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: him that it's against policy. He offers to call Ellen instead.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Ellen Cell gets two calls from Venice Lofts, but no
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: one answers. Ellen Cell gets another call from Venice Lofts,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: but no one answers, so Phil offers to call the police.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: This is at six oh seven and six'. Ten so
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: now the security or the door, man whatever you want
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: to call, him is now calling and she's not. Answering
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: then at six twenty three, Pm sam is seen on
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: the surveillance camera entering the elevator and at six point
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: thirty pm he proceeds to break down the door to their. Apartment,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: inside he Finds ellen slumped on the floor in the,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: kitchen leaning against the cabinets with blood, everywhere and he
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: calls nine to one. One all, Right so here's where
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: it gets all muddled to, me clearly maybe possibly, wait
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: she is it?
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Clearly or MAYBE i don't.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Know this is Where i'm saying it's. Muddled it's all it's.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Hard the two scenarios are she either committed suicide Or
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: sam killed. Her there is no other.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Option, yeah your analytical skills today.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Exactly, however he claims that when he left the apartment
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: to go to the, gym that she was.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Alive and how long was he?
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Gone he was gone thirty, minutes forty, Minutes so she
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: either committed suicide within that small, timeframe latched the, door committed, suicide,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: right or it's also possible that if it was a,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: murder that he killed her before he went to the.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Gym it's.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Possible so that's a.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: Possibility but then what about the door, Latch, well that's another.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Conundrum BUT i guess it is possible that he could
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: have had the forethought to manipulate because there are, videos
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: you can watch videos of how to manipulate that swing.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Latch you can pull. It there's, like there's ways to pull.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: It we don't have an answer to. This but he
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: from the, inside he could have latched it and then
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: pull forced it. Open that's a little bit of a.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Stretch NOW i think about, it because it's you're, saying
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: so it could busted it open from the. Inside, oh
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: you're saying it was never actual to make it look Like,
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: no it was latch like for, instance it's a little
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: bit of a. Stretch but he goes, inside he kills or,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: whatever he latches the door from the inside and he's
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: on the, inside and now he pulls the door open
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: and busts it open with the. Latch so it looked
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: like from the outside he kicked it, in but it's
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: from the inside he pulled it.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Open but he goes to the. Gym so when does
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: he go to the? Gym and then when he shuts the,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: door what does he?
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: DO i don't. Know you're, right this is a. Mess
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: it IS i said it was a.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Stretch, yeah, Okay so he calls nine one one upon
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: entering the apartment and finding her in the.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Kitchen, well, no, wait then if it's, latched the only
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: way it could have, been then could you just shut
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: down my? Theory, okay the only way it could have been,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: was like you, said he manipulated it to latch it
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: on his way out after he had killed. Her had
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: he killed her at, all.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Or there's the possibility that it was never latched and
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: somehow this guy was just so diabolical and smart he
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: knew he.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Just busted the latch.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Somehow, yeah BECAUSE i took UP i have a. Photo
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: she shook a picture on the screen WHEN i was watching,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: it because they have a photo of the, latch AND
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: i wanted to see if it was actually see, it describe.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: It so you thought you you thought you saw the.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: CRIME i was, Like i'm gonna solve this right.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Now zoom.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: In, Yes i'm zooming. In so look this is what
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: the door looks.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah it's a latch like a, hotel like the.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Hotel what this? Is what the? Door oh that's it?
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Broken oh that's the real. One let me see.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: It, yeah that's the real.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: One this is.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Ok this is the crime scene.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Photo oh, YEAH i don't know if we're going to
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: kick that. OPEN i think it would be a lot
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: more bust. NIGHT i remember WHEN I keller got locked
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: in a bathroom door AND i busted it. Open, yeah
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: you did how much wood?
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Damage that was so hot when you did.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: THAT i can break the door tonight if you, Want
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: i'll lock you in the bathroom and break you.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Out that was actually At Elizabeth vargas's. House i'd never
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: bring up housewise on the, podcast but this is probably
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: the first Time i've ever done. That but that Was
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth vargas's. House that big color was stuck in the.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: Callerroom she did some remodeling on that house and they
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: did a crappy job on a bathroom And keller went
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: to the bathroom and he got locked in it for
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: a long, time an.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Hour No.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Joe we slid the, iPad his iPad underneath the bathroom doors.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: To entertain them so that he could.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Watch videos until we could get him. Out and So
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: elizabeth sends over the handyman to get my child out
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: of the. Bathroom the handy man cannot get this child,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: out he can't get the lock to. Work shane gets
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: so frustrated he just goes all a hulk on it
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: and he just takes the whole door.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: DOWN i think it was two.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: KICKS i don't, know but it was.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Hot it was a lot more wood broken than that little.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Thing, yes it was all. Right the operator Instructs sam
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: to Remove ellen's sweater and to ADMINISTER. Cpr when he
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: lifts her slouched, head he discovers the knife lodged in her,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: chest and the operator instructs him to stop ADMINISTERING cpr and,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: says the paramedics are on the. Way we have to
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: go into this a little bit deeper. Though when HE'S i,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: actually they show the nine to one one call wor
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: you can listen to. It the nine one one operator
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: says to him multiple times because he says she's bleeding
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: and she's on the. Floor the operator, says look at
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: her chest to see what's the movie, like look at her,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: chest look at her. Chest she says it a few.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Times then she, says, okay, hey you need to DO,
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: cpr and then he says something to the effect of
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: DO i have to or something like. That, no he
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: does this IS i, mean he, says, LIKE i GUESS
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: i have. To like he's. Not he's not, like, YES
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: i have to GIVE cpr to.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Her, no it is a little bit of a laughable.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Response it.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Is he says something to the effect of, LIKE i
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: GUESS i really have to or. Something then, okay remember
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: this woman is slumped. Down she slumped, like she slid
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: down the. Cabinets, okay she's, sitting her legs are sprawled
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: out in front of. Her she has a knife in her.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Heart he walks into the, apartment he calls nine to one,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: one and he never makes reference to there being a
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: knife in her heart until like halfway through the, call
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: when she tells him that he needs to DO cpr
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: and he's, like, okay all, right and she's, like you
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: got to open her. Shirt you gotta get her sweater.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Off and he's, like.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: OKAY i forgot one small. Detail, yeah there's a knife
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: in her.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Heart and then all of a sudden he's, like oh,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: wait she stabbed. Herself so the way the nine one
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: one call sounds is like he never noticed the knife
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: sticking out of her chest and then he notices it
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: on the nine one one call and then he, says
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: she stabbed. Herself, no she fell on her. KNIFE i.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Know so the nine one one call is.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Strange everything's strange so.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Far and, again we've talked about how in certain circumstances
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: that we've never been in like when we even talk
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: about The Brian coberger cases and the fact that the
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: girls didn't call until.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: Right we don't know what reactions there, are, Right we're.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Trying not to be judgmental because we've never been in that.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Situation i've never walked into an apartment and someone needed
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: nine to one. One, however his responses do sound. Strange
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: she sounds like he doesn't want to give HER. Cpr
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: he doesn't seem to notice the.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Knife sounds like he doesn't want to bring her back to.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Life, yeah sticking out of her chest until. Later AND
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: i don't know how you don't notice. THAT i mean to,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: me when you open the door and you walk in the,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: apartment that would be the first thing that you notice
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: is that she a knife plunged into her.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Chest, right did he move her at? All like before
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: He because my thought would be if you walk and
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: you see someone like, that you would be quick to
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: call nine one, One but you'd probably also be quick
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: to go attend them in some, way even if it's
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: just checking on them or moving them in a more comfortable,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: position or pulling the knife out or. SOMETHING i don't
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: if you would do.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Something, Yeah so they Find ellen so then at six
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: thirty six, pm emergency responders arrive on. Scene that's because
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: once he says that there's a knife in her, obviously
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: the operator, says then don't DO, cpr, like don't touch.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Her they Find ellen in a semi upright position between
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: two corner, cabinets with a serrated knife plunged four inches
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: into her, chest a strainer filled with blueberries and an
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: orange appearing freshly slice rested on the. Counter two clean
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: knives are in the, sink and the knife block looked
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: as if it fell. Over ellen suffered twenty stab wounds in. Total,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: however a caveat just about the stab. Wounds they don't
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: know that there's twenty stab wounds until after she's taken
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: away from the scene and the medical examiner they just
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: see the one knife in see and she has a
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: wound in the top of her head that's like two.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Inches so it's six forty two. Pm ellen's pronounced dead
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: at the. Scene when police Questions, sam he tells them
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: About ellen's medication and her poor mental. Health the police
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: rule her death as. Suicide, now they say that they
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: ruled it a suicide pretty quickly one because they said
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: that the door was latched from the. Inside, NOW i
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: don't know how much they investigated the door actually being
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: last or they just take his Door kate, suicide or
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: if they just take his word for it and they
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: see because WHEN i was.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Looking at your, picture it looks like the latch you,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: COULD i mean you could you could literally gank it
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: also just with your, hand like you, know because it
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: protrudes out and you can just pull it with your
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: hand like a lever and then try To and it
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: only had like the screws busted. Out it wasn't that.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Impressive so they take his word for that it was
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: from the. Inside so the police are, saying, okay well
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: the door was locked from the. Inside they look and
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: then the balcony there's fresh. Snow there's no, footprints so they're, like,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: well it couldn't have been anyone. Else there's no surveillance
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: video of anyone else going in or out to go
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: up to that. Floor the neighbors don't hear any disturbance
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: other than him yelling.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Her doorman never left his, post, right.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: The doorman didn't leave his. Post so and then he
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Says sam says that there's mental health issues and that
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: she was kind of spiraling and that she was taking
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: these new. Medications and so they rule a suicide pretty
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: much on scene and then the body's taken. Away So
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: january twenty, seventh two thousand and, eight.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: At least left it, open like do they have to
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: determine right then and? There they certainly should have left it.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Open it's. QUESTIONABLE i don't.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Know they just said they found him, cooperative AND i guess.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: HE i don't, know he, cooperating and the door latch was,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: busted and she had some mental health issues and there
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: was no, Suit there was no suicide, note and as
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: far AS i, REMEMBER i think at that time there
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: was nothing. There she also had a, laptop AND i
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: believed that they didn't find any kind of evidence or
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: search or anything on her laptop to indicate.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Suicide, yeah but.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: They still ruled it a suicide at that, time not even,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: undetermined just. Suicide that was the police. Investigation you. Know
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: that was another THING i was thinking, About AND i don't.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: KNOW i did end up reading later BECAUSE i, thought,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: well who else did he? Call did they do a
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: forensic analysis on his phone at? All did they see
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: not only was he calling her or texting, her but
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: was he calling anyone? Else was? He you?
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: Know?
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah and you, KNOW.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know about. THAT i did read that there
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: was some inconsistencies later with him saying he had called
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: certain people or, whatever and then it oh the lot.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Because he don't never really bother. Me it's, like, okay
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: so someone said they called PERSON a and then PERSON,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: b and then they said it WAS b and THEN.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: A i, mean there's a lot going. On no one really.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Is no one's keeping track of what's going.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: On so On january twenty, seventh twenty, Eleven ellen's body
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: was removed from The venicelov departments and transported to a
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: morgue for an. Autopsy Before ellen's autopsy was completed and
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: the results of the professional examination were, Known Sam goldberg's,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: lawyer who is his, uncle who is also a, Lawyer James.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Schwartzman this is very interesting to, me and this is
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: what pushes me over into the murder. Side so let's
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: talk about. This Sam goldberg has an uncle who is a.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: Lawyer his name Is James. Schwartzman he called the apartment
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: building's property manager requesting access To ellen And sam's. Apartment
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: so here's a, Doctor Marlon osborne is performing an autopsy On.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Ellen in his, examination he notes multiple stab wounds to
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: the chess abdomen in the back of the. Neck he
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: creates a draft autopsy report and finds. Homicide so here's
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: where the conflict. Begins you've got the police who find
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: her body that night and rule it a suicide immediately
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: based upon certain factors the door, Latch sam being cooperative
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and no one else could have hosted. Something but then
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: the medical examiner does the autopsy and then he rules
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: it a. Homicide so now you've got two conflicting, reports,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: right and then you've.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Got i'd side with the homicide at this. Point but then.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: You've got the uncle Of, sam who is a, lawyer
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: who is now calling the apartment complex and wants access
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: into the. Apartment so the property manager Of Venice Loft,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: apartments her name Is Melissa, Ware she contacts the police
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: after the uncle calls and asks for access to the
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: apartment because he says he wants to get a suit
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: for his. Nephew the police apartment Tells melissa it was
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: not an active crime scene, anymore and then they gave
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: her the number of a crime scene cleanup crew to
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: use for the.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Apartment how soon is this after the C it's like
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: the next. Day, WOW i would, UH i would not
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: BE i don't know if i'd be so quick to
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: CLEAN i don't. KNOW i don't.
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: Know, AGAIN i believe it was a if it was,
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: me you were, dad, Okay, yeah and it was clearly
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: SO i know it's a suicide Because i'm the only, person,
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: RIGHT i know it's a.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Suicide, Yeah i'd call a cleanup crew probably quickly. Too.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah but also IF i murdered, you i'd call it
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: cleanup quickly. TOO i don't have any.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Answers, well it's his uncle that is asking for access
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: to the apartment, immediately.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Right right, Right and he doesn't get a. Suit he,
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: says it's under the.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Pretense of wanting to get a, suit probably for the. Funeral,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: okay police say. So when she asked the, police which
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: was the right thing to, do, right she doesn't grant
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: this guy, Access she, says let me call the.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Police, first the crime, scene, Right so she does the right.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Thing she calls the police and she's, LIKE i don't you,
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: know CAN i let him? In and they're like, sure
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: it's already been ruled, suicide and, oh and by the,
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: way you can let him. In and also here's the
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: number of a crime scene cleanup, crew so that they
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: can go in and just really just wipe the blaze down.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Perfectly.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Right so the next day the uncle comes to the,
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: apartment but he doesn't just take a. Suit he takes her.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Devices he takes her laptop and her phone and her.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Purse see that's Where i'm, like.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: He knew what he was, doing whether he knew that
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: there was a conflict with homicide versus, suicide and whether
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: he knew what happened or, not he took it probably
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: just just to smother. It so the kind of attorney was?
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: He was he a? Criminal you, KNOW i don't.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: KNOW i DIDN'T i didn't. KNOW i don't know.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: That it's.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: So the apartment manager Called James, schwartzman and again Remember
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: James schwartzman is the uncle the attorney, uncle and told
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: him that he could have access to the premises and
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: relayed the recommendation of a crime scene cleanup. Service so she, says,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: okay the police said you can go get a. Suit
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: also they said THAT i should hire a crime scene Cleanup.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: YEAH i bet Sh sam told his uncle to take
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: the devices while you're, there can you grab some of
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: this incriminating?
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Device or the uncle is looking out for a right
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: that was my first.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: Thought right Now i'm, thinking, well Maybe sam's, like can
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: you grab her?
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Devices so Then schwartzman agrees for the family to pay
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: the costs of the crime scene, cleanup and she arranged
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: for the services to be completed before he and his
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: son even are, right he and his son would be
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: his cousin arrive at the. Complex so this all happens,
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: quickly very. QUICKLY i, mean you've got the next, Day
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: you've got this guy wants access to the. Apartment he
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: wants to get a, suit he, says a. Suit he
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: takes the computer to her purse and her, phone and
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: he also pays for a crime scene cleanup to come
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: in and wipe everything. Down James schwartzman showed up and
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: removed not only a sue from the, apartment but Also
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: ellen's per cell phone and. Laptop so that's WHERE i can.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: GO i can maybe hang my hat on the. SUICIDE
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: i can, think you, know stabbing yourself seems like a
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: really really very, difficult, difficult difficult and, long.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: And she didn't have such a history of mental struggles
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: to be able to like justify, like, oh, yeah she
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: was really out, there you, know like drug use this and.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: That so she's numb to, things and then she kind
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: of is violent towards herself or cutting or anything like.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: That, yeah you're saying there's no. Precursor, NO i guess.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Is i'm a first grade. Teacher and then her choice
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: of suicide is stabbing HERSELF i know many, times and
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: then cutting her head and stabbing her neck and all that.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: STUFF i. Know but you know, what the majority of
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: the stab wounds are very, superficial not, deep not. Deep
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: and WHAT i learned was a lot of, people if
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: they not a lot of people choose stabbing for, suicide
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: let's be clear on. That but if they, do there
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: are some cases of. It there are a lot of
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: times it's. Superficial where there's superficial because they're called, hesitation,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: right because it's you're working yourself up to.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: It it's hard to actually fully stab yourself AND i imagine, so,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: right so it's.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Like you're you're, trying and you're kind of seeing and
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: then SO i think it's out. THERE i think it's
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: difficult to grasp. That BUT i don't think it's.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: Impossible, no it's it's been done. Before and also already
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: laying did that already Laying oh, yeah. Yeah he. STABBING
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: i think on two different occasions he stabbed. Himself, wow didn't.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Succeed but he also had high and that's What i'm.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Getting he had a lot of, cocaine, used drug, use very,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: extreme a lot of adrenaline to be able to do
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: such a. Thing she's the first grade. TEACHER i know
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: that comes with, stress but maybe not not to this.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Level you. Know ALL i can think is that she
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: was really really, spiraling and she was on medication and
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: you've got and she probably they, said she went from
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: like this, happy go, lucky like never had any, anxiety
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: to all of a, sudden she's closed. Off she's not
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: sharing things with, friends and she has all this anxiety
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: about her. Job and maybe it was more than her.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: Job maybe there was a lot more things going on
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: that she was just not. Verbalizing So january twenty, eighth twenty,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: eleven the autopsy findings are that Doctor osborne classified the
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: death as a, homicide which obviously contradicts with what the
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: police department rolled, it which was a. Suicide his findings
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: from the autopsy On january twenty seventh provide critical details
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: about the cause of death and the nature of the.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Injury Sustain there were multiple stab. Wounds ellen had numerous
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: stab wounds to the, chess, abdomen and back of the.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Neck the stab wounds affected vital areas including the aortic,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: arch left, lung and cervical. Spine this indicates severe trauma
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: to essential organs and. Structures the presence this is also.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Important they're also found in the autopsy that there was
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: the presence of multiple bruises at different stages of, healing
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: which would suggest a pattern of physical altercations or abuse
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: occurring over.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Time and where were the bruises all?
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: OVER i think she had eleven different bruises on, arms.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: Legs oh.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Wow so then.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Again you can take from it what you. Want but
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: maybe a lot of the stress didn't have so much
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: to do with workplace, workplace but maybe there was abuse at.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Home you know what the.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Boyfriend if.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: This is a case where you, think oh, wow maybe
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: it was, murder but then had he been arresting, convicted
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: we probably do be doing a podcast on there's not enough.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: EVIDENCE i, know.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: AND i thought about THAT i, thought if they ruled
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: it a homicide and they arrested him and he went to,
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Trial i'd be sitting right here saying the same thing
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: that he probably did. It BUT i don't know IF
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: i would convict him IF i were on that, jury
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: because there's reasonable.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: Doubt what had they done a proper investigation OR i
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: shouldn't say, proper more thorough with her. DEVICES i don't
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: know what else there, was what eyewitness testimony or ear,
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: witness you, know what people can hear nearby all that
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: maybe there'd be more evidence one way or, another.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: And maybe there should have. BEEN i, MEAN i don't
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: know that they ever gave him a lie detector. Test
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: AND i mean. THAT i know you can say whatever
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: you want about lie detector, tests but every police force uses,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: them THE cia and THE.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Fbi for indictments and all kinds of.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Things i'm, saying if he had been given a lie
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: detector test about his story and the latch and all
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: that he, passed then that's something that's. Something but if
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: there was deceit, noted that's something that's another route to.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Go and they they didn't do.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: That ALTHOUGH i just watched a video and was reading
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: up on a man who was convicted of killing his
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: wife even though he. Hadn't he was released twenty five years.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Later he passed two light detector tests during the. Investigation did?
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Matter they still arrested him and convicted.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: Him, yeah, Wrongfully that does. Help it does. Happen, then
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: The commonwealth Of pennsylvania issued a search, warrant and the
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: items they searched and seize are listed. Below it was assorted,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: knives the blood, samples a serrated knife with the black,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: handle a bloody hand towel found in the. Kitchen other
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: potential evidence items related to the crime. Scene assorted, clothing
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: a diamond ring she didn't, wear her ring, fingerprints and
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: a rubber made. Container and also when they found this
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: IS i don't know what to make of, this but
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: when they found her, body when she was slumped down
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: and they found her and she was, deceased she had
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: a white towel in one of her hands that didn't
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: have any blood on. It it was pretty. Pristine SO
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: i don't know what to make of that other than,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: maybe like if she did commit, suicide then maybe on
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: the like she's losing her life and she slumps, down
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: maybe she grabs it off the ca she's holding on to.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: IT i don't.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: KNOW i have no idea if this was a. Murder
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: If sam was, like holy, crap that was easier THAN i,
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Thought like twenty four hours she was it was. Suicide
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: they don't, investigate AND i get to clean the, apartment
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: and they even told me who to.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: Call you, Know here's here's where WHEN i think AND
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: i try TO i try to visualize what. HAPPENED i
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: try to visualize it as a. Murder first of, all
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: if he did murder, her it wasn't a planned. Murder,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: NO i mean he would have just broken up with.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: Her, no that's not. True WELL i was saying all
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: people would break up instead of murdering their.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Space, No i'm saying it wasn't. Planned it's not. PREMEDITATED i,
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: mean this guy isn't like someone that's going TO i.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Would have guessed that it just built, up maybe in
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: a short period of, time and then it was an
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: explosion and then.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Bam, Right i'm saying he didn't plan. It if he
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: did murder, her it's because something happened in that. Apartment
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: words were, exchanged it ramped. Up, really there was some
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: heat of the.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Moment i't know what you said about breaking.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Up i'm, saying this guy is engaged to. Her he's
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: not going to plan to murder. Her i'm, saying if
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: he doesn't want to be with her, anymore he would
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: just break up with. Her he's not going to murder
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: her to get out of the. Relationship lots That, No,
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: no but they do that because they're. Married they don't
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: want to pay child, support and they don't want to
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: lose custody of their. Kids these, guys they don't have any.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Connection these are that's.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: All he doesn't have a history of any, crime, right, right.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: Or.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Violence if we're going to make it that he murdered,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: her it has to be a heat of the. Moment something.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: HAPPENED i would agree with.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: That she came home from, work she's, spiraling maybe she's acting.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: Crazy he's telling her to calm. Down something, happens and
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: he grabs a knife and attacks. Her my question, is,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: though when someone murders someone with a knife and the
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: heat of the, moment they don't leave superficial, wounds, RIGHT i,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: MEAN i would think that they're not just they're not
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: just you, know testing and like doing little you, know
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: like millimeter little wounds to the back of her. NECK i,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: mean if he is in the heat of the moment
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: and he blitz attacks, her that he's going to plunge
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: a knife into, her not mess.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Around R it's getting all the way, through.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Right i'm just saying he's not going to be, like oh,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: here let me just do like some little tiny baby
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: stab baby, stabs and then, oh Now i'm going to
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: stab you for. Real LIKE i DON'T i don't picture that.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: HAPPENING i don't know.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Everything you say is true and, understandable and it just
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: leaves more. QUESTIONS i, know all, RIGHT i need, answers not.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Questions, okay let's go back to because this is also.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Interesting and also it goes back to the computer. Searches
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: like we talked about. Before they initially said that there
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: wasn't any kind of anything that they found on the
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: computer with A i assume just with this police investigation
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: was a basic cursory review of her, devices, right probably.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Best then the uncle comes in the apartment under the
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: pretense of getting a, suit but he takes her laptop
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: and her.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: Phone did he take a.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: SUIT i don't even know if he took a. SUIT
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: i don't Know so then in twenty, nineteen the case
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: gets reopened and The Pennsylvania Attorney general's office claimed that
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: there were web searches found on her computer for, quote
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: methods of committing, suicide quick, death and, depression that they
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: had been found On ellen's. Computer, now, again.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Does he have access to a. Computer, well the uncle
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: took the, COMPUTER i, know BUT i meant prior to the,
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: death because he. Could you, Know i'm just, thinking like a,
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: CRIMINAL i could go in there and.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Search so you're saying. Suicide, wait you're saying who the fiance.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Like If sam used her computer to make those. Searches
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: i'm just trying to make sense of. This ring cases
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: that are cut and, Dry that's what we need to talk.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: About some sources indicate the searches occurred In december, eighteenth twenty,
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: ten for suffocation and suicide, methods and On january, tenth twenty,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: eleven for quick. Death she also reportedly browsed the website
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: about painless.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: Suicide, well if you go off of, that then why
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: wouldn't it be a?
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: Suicide because they're saying it's, controversial they're saying that there's a,
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: dispute there is a fundamental dispute over the computer. Evidence
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: the use of this evidence to support the suicide ruling is.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Controversial this is a computer evidence due to the chain
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: of custody issues at conflicting, Reports you've got one side, saying,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: hey she said she was searching for suicide. Before and
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: you know what it means a chain of. Custody the
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: chain of custody is broken when the uncle comes and takes.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: It that's when the chain of.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Custody, yeah but why can they know when the searches were?
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Made, well that's the problem is that apparently you can
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: manipulate the searches as. Well.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: Well then then go back to WHAT i just, said
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: he probably could have planted those searches for. Suicide, OKAY i.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: KNOW i suggest everyone that everyone that's having a breakdown
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: of their relationship should probably look in their search. History
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: like IF i look at my search issue right now
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: and it's like suicide and all this, Stuff i'm gonna
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: know what you're up.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: To, yes but, again that would be, premeditated AND i
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: SEE i would HAVE I coulner, Right i'm just saying
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: twenty year olds that are engaged, there it's not pre.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: MESSAGE i don't, know it's very. Confusing i'm more frustrating
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: ending this podcast THAN i was starting.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: It So march of twenty, eleven they changed the manner
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: of death. Again the police department demanded a face to
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: face meeting About ellen's case with Doctor. Osborne remember he
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: was the original medical examiner that rolled it a homicide
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: and his, colleagues which was also attended by a high
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: ranking representative from The Philadelphia District attorney's. Office following the
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: meeting with, investigators Doctor osborne made an unprecedented decision to
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: change his original. Ruling he reversed his earlier classification of
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: the death as a homicide and concluded That ellen's death
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: was actually a. Suicide Doctor osborne has stated that no
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: notes were taken and there is no recording of this important.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: Meeting so what happened is the police ruled a, suicide
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: the medical examiner does the autopsy and rules it a.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Homicide now you've got conflicting, reports and you've got these
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: parents that are pissed, off, Right so now the police
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: department or the city has a. Problem so then there's a,
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: meeting and then after the, meeting the medical examiner, says oh,
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: okay and he rules it a. Suicide there's not much
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: conviction over, there and there's no notes taken and no
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: records of what happened in this. Meeting and when they
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: deposed everyone and asked them about what happened in the,
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: meeting every single person, SAID i don't recall or or
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: something like. That so In march of twenty, Eleven ellen's
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: death certificate was quietly updated from homicide to. Suicide ellen's,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: Parents josh And Sandra, greenberg were astounded by the sudden.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Change it made no sense to them That ellen would
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: have inflicted twenty stab wounds to, herself.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: And some of the wounds were on the.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Back, right it's on the back of the, neck but
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: it's up, high so again.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: Reachable it's, reachable so that's but why would you do
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: that to the back of your?
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: NECK i don't, know but you know, what it's, reachable
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: but it's also there were also very there were a
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: few that are again like those hesitation.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: Type of and that there's no defensive wounds of any.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: Kind, oh that is a good. Question no defensive, Wounds
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: and that was another. Question that was another reason that
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: initially the police ruled it a, suicide because, again you
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: would think that if it was a blitz attack where
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: they were just having some heated moment and he grabs
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: a knife and he goes or hear that she would
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: put her hands, up that she would fight, back that
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: she would put her arms, up and there were no defensive.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Retoun anything on. Him, right he didn't have anything on.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: Him, No, also there was only HER dna found on
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: the knife that they removed from her. Chest now again.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: That doesn't mean he didn't do. It it just means he
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: didn't HAVE dna on.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: It there's just there's HIS dna wasn't found on. IT
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: i don't. Know he could have wiped the knife or
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: he could have just not LEFT. Dna but, again.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: All, right all this, said what do you think? It
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: what do you think it?
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: IS i don't. KNOW i, MEAN i don't. Know that's the.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Question so was it a suicide or a. Homicide let's
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: just go through some things that points to. Suicide it's
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: shallow hesitation, stabs no defensive wounds on her, hands the
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: door was, latched there's new snow on the, balcony no,
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: footprints so that means that there's no other. Perpetrator no
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: one else was in the. Apartment she's had mental health.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: Issues she was taking new. Medications she went to three
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: visits with us, kiatrist and it was well known that
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: her demeanor had changed and that her outlook on life had,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: changed and that she was pretty. Depressed she was spiraling
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: at school that. Day her colleague said that she was acting,
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: abnormal that she was, spiraling she was having a hard,
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: time she was, happy she was leaving school. Early the
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: door was locked from the. Inside this is based On
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: sam's statement and ALSO i guess the visual that they
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: saw that the lock was, broken but AGAIN i don't,
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: know could that be. Manipulated, yeah the apartment was. Undisturbed
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: there's no signs of a, struggle so again you would
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: think that if he attacked her that there would be
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: things knocked, over something. Broken no defensive, wounds there's no
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: defensive wind marks on. Him they found A google search
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: on her computer for quick suicide and painless, suicide but
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: again that's debatable because we don't know exactly when that.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: Was because the chain of custody was broken when the
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: uncle took the. Laptop the knife showed Only ELLEN'S. DNA
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: sam state seen and was, cooperative And ellen's last digital
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: footprint was activity on her computer at four forty, five
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: which was the same time That sam left for THE
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: gem and the neighbors did not hear any type of
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: fight or. Disturbance so that's a. Lot, yeah that's pointing
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: to a. Suicide evidence that points to a. Homicide there
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: is a lack of hemorrhaging on the spinal column. Injuries
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: this is interesting and this is complex Because i'm not
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: a MEDICAL i don't know anything about any medical type
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: of terms or. Anything but there is there was a
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: wound that was hit the spinal cord sheath in the
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: back of her.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: Neck which means What which.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: Means that one of the medical examiners was of the
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: opinion that because there was no hemorrhaging around that cut
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: into the spinal, cord that that cut occurred after. Death
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: that's another that's another.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: That's another thing to confuse.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: It that's another confusing thing to look at that points
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: towards a. Homicide Lindsay, emory a pathologist who's also certified in,
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: neuropathology conducted one Of ellen's examinations and testified saying that
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: a lack of hemorrhage means no, Pulse so that means
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: that there's the possibility that that could have been struck after,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: death which obviously means it wasn't suicide because she can't
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: stab herself if she's already.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Deceased, no you, know it reminds me of That utah
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: case where it was it wasn't a murder, suicide it
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: was a suicide. Murder what is That this lady went
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: to shoot herself there in a car and she pointed
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: the gun in her. HEAD i don't mean to laugh
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: at her, death, obviously but she points the gun at her,
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: head shoots. Herself the bullet goes through her, head and
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: then hit the, passenger her, husband and killed.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Him, oh but she didn't mean to kill. Him, no
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: she didn't want to kill. Him, No and she died
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: and he.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: Died she died.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: First, yeah so, suicide she killed. Him so suicide murder
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: as opposed to murder. Suicide, Okay so what you're, saying.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: So strange things can, Happen strange things can be very.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: Rare in that, case there was evidence to prove the
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: order of. Killing. Right in this, case it's just really,
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: confusing And i'm probably more frustrating now that you brought
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: up this case THAN i was, yesterday not knowing about.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: This, case all, right SO i made bowl of points
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: of just what led me to believe. Suicide now we're
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: talking about homicide. Homicide so there's the pathologists who said
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: that it could the spinal, cord the lack of lack of,
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: hemorrhaging twenty knife. Wounds also there is String there was
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: possibly strangulation marks on her. Neck Ellen greenberg's twenty eleven
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: autopsy noted a bruising to her, neck which some forensic
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: experts have interpreted as evidence of. Strangulation this has been
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: a key factor in the long running controversy over whether
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: her death was a homicide or. SUICIDE i don't, know,
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: THOUGH i feel as if it was an actual strangulation
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: first that there would be noticeable, marks also evidence of
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: points to homicide or the bruises and varying stages of,
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: healing which would suggest that he was violent or abusive with. Her,
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: previously no one was With sam when he broke the door. Down,
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: okay this is, interesting and this was a controversy that
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: came up originally when the medical examiner first concluded or
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: the police concluded that it was a. Suicide it's because
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: they were under the assumption that When sam came back
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: to the apartment and busted the door down and broke
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: the latch from the, inside that the security guard was with.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: HIM i don't know where that story came, from but
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: they were under that, assumption and the medical examiner was
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: under that. Assumption so when he ruled it a, suicide
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: he considered that there was. Right so then he the medical,
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: examiner then learns later that that wasn't. True that the
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: security guard or the, doorman whatever you want to call, him,
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: ever actually left his. Post so When sam broke the door,
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: down he was. Alone there was no witness as.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: To that's, odd that it's, odd but a medical examiner
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: taking in like evidence like, That LIKE i when his
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: testimony and, STUFF i know WHAT i, thought you're a medical,
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: EXAMINER i think look at them, MEDICALLY i.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: Know but you know WHAT i took away from, that
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: it was the totality of the. Circumstances it was it
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: was all these things that he found during the. Autopsy
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: but then also also thinking the door was latched from the,
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: inside that the police already ruled it a you, know a,
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: suicide that he thought That sam was accompanied by the door,
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: man and that the last.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: Was you AND i could do all. THAT i thought
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: this guy's supposed to have training to look and learn
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: about wounds and stab wounds and you, know hemagering and
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: all that.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Stuff, also the strange nine one one call kind of
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: leads to the thought that it could possibly be. Homicide
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: the fact that he doesn't notice the knife in her
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: heart when he first comes into when he calls nine one,
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: one he doesn't mention it until like halfway through the.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: Call reluctant to DO.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Cpr it just doesn't sound like he doesn't sound like a.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: Grieving the clean rag in her hands kind of seems to,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: random you.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: Know, also someone, SAID i don't know that when people
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: when someone commits suicide and it is a stabbing, suicide
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: that normally they lift their shirt, up of their clothing.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: Up her stab was through her. Sweater that's. Interesting, yeah
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: so that's something.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: Else but then is there a normal routine for suicide by?
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: Stabbing there's.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: Not all you can do is look back at you
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: and you, know it reminds me of Even Amanda knox's,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: case where the prosecutor was so hell bent on the
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: fact that the body was covered that it must have
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: been a, woman.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: Because you, know, women women do.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: That men cover the. Body so, again it's not a proven,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: science BUT i think it's just something, something it's something
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: to think about. That AND i don't, Know i'm trying
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: to picture myself like trying to stab. MYSELF i don't.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: Know MAYBE i probably would lift my shirt. UP i don't,
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: KNOW i don't. KNOW i don't. KNOW i don't.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: KNOW i know you wouldn't lift my shirt. Up, no
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: you would go right through my favorite shirt if he had.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: To and then also again when we're talking about, homicide
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: the possibility of a post mortem cut into the spinal,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: cord which would have occurred after death because there was no.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: HEMORRHAGING a security guard said he had not been there
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: when the fiance forced opened the, door and despite two
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: relatives claims that they'd been on the phone With goldberg
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: when he forced opened the, door AS cnn analysis of
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: phone records and other evidence seemed to contradict that. Claim
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: SO i guess there were relatives that claim to have
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: been on the phone with him when he broke the door,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: down and then forensically it seemed that that Didn't that.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: Doesn't mean anything to me even if they, were because
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: if he's gonna fake. It he could fake that, too
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: but you know. That so the wounds on the back
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: of the neck were the ones that were not.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Heymatry, no, well just there's several wounds on the, back
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: but it was the back of the. Neck, yeah but
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: there was one that was close to the spinal, cord
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: and that's the one that wasn't.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: Hemorrhaging hear me, Out, okay when someone, dies, yeah is
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: it like as soon as their heart stops, beating that's
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: the moment they won't hemorrhage or is There because it's
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: on the.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: It's on the back of the neck and she's leaned
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: up against the, CABINET i would think she. DIED i
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: mean the position that she's. In that means someone she
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: asks to die in that position and then get, stabbed
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: like they move her head away from the, walls stab
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: and then put it.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: BACK i don't.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Know it just seems a little out of.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: Order, OH i see what you're. Saying you're saying because
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: it was a. If if we're if we're taking it
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: as a post mortem, stab, right then she's already on
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: the ground and she's already slumped over.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: And, yeah and you're sitting the back of her neck's probably,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: covered or she's up against the, wall or it's not easily. Accessible,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: YEAH i don't. Know just more, question no. Answers So ellen's.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: Parents continued to fight against the suicide ruling to this very.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: Day So ellen's, Parents josh And, sandy filed two civil,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: lawsuits one in twenty nineteen against The Philadelphia Medical Examiner's
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: office and Doctor osborne to change the ruling on their
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: daughter's death, certificate and then another suit in twenty twenty
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: two against The city Of, philadelphia Former Chief Medical Examiner Sam,
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: gulino and others, involved alleging that the investigation was mishandled
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: and covered up by the city. Officials In february of
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty, five The greenberg celebrated a major legal victory
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: when the city settled both suits and The Medical examiner's
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: office agreed to reopen its investigation Into greenberg's cause of.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: Death the ruling came shortly after Doctor osborne signed an
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: affidavit stating That ellen's death should be classified as something
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: other than. Suicide according TO Nbc, philadelphia he reportedly made
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: the decision after reviewing new information in the case and
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: consulting with a pediatric. Pathologist the settlement also included an
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: undisclosed amount of. Money The greenbergs went back to court
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: In september of twenty twenty. Five the case returned to
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: court last month as attorneys for her family press for
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: answers about delays and the independent autopsy.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: Review so that was part.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: Of the, settlement was that someone else was going to
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: do an independent. Autopsy despite the settlement earlier this, year
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: The greenberg's claim they have received no updates or news
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: Regardings ellen's. Case the next hearing on the matter is
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: scheduled For october, fourteenth which is this month next. Week,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: yeah and they're supposed to have this independent autopsy done
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: prior To october. Fourteenth so we will continue to follow this.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: Case if we solved another, crime we.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: Will follow this case and see what happens and see
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: if this. Crime this is one of those crimes, where
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: even like you said, earlier even if they it's ruled
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: a homicide and they're going to go back and, reinvestigate.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: Now there's just enough evidence to be.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: Confused it's enough evidence on both s to confuse. You it's,
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: RIGHT i don't, KNOW i lean towards. Suicide you know what,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: THOUGH i was thinking about this, Guy. Sam, Yeah so
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: first they rule it a suicide and he's probably, like,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: yes then at the, funeral if you did it, right
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: then at the funeral is when the media outlets report
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: that it's been changed to a homicide or not changed
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: with the medical examiner said it was a. Homicide so
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: that guy's probably like pissing his pants right if he did, It,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: no it doesn't matter if he did it or not
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: they ruled. It if they rule it a, homicide it's it's.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: HIM i, mean he's the only perpetrator they're going to come.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: After then they change it back to a, suicide so
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: he's probably, Like, Okay i'm in the clear. Again and
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: now they're they're you, know ruling on whether they're going
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: to investigate it again or. NOT i, mean this guy
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: probably wakes up every day and as he's.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: Just a person of interest today or victim, today which is?
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: It and if he was the, perpetrator than. GOOD i,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: mean he should be living in a state of perpetual
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: fear and. Hell but if he didn't do, it that
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: is a crappy way to live, life not knowing whether
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: they're going to come after. You or. Not so at
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: the end of the, day we don't know what's going to.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: Happen we'll see what happens on this court date In october.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: Fourteenth and, again thank you so much guys for listening
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: To lee La. Brunette we appreciate.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: You follow