Latest / Specialty Matcha Podcast / Interview with Homecoming Matcha, Dee

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Interview with Homecoming Matcha, Dee · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to the Specialty Match Podcast.
0:02
My name is Ryan, this is Michael Ho Zhongjun.
0:05
Hello. Hello.
0:05
Who also goes by Sam and we're the cofounders of Sanka Matcha
0:09
Products. Yeah.
0:10
We launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey,
0:13
Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts.
0:17
And today we have Dee from Homecoming Matcha joining our
0:20
podcast. Welcome, Dee.
0:21
Hi, thanks for having me. Thanks for coming on.
0:24
Yeah. It's been what is it like 6
0:27
months now since we met in Kyoto.
0:29
So, so happy to finally record this episode 'cause I think we
0:32
tried to do it back then and then decided to hold off a bit.
0:36
Yeah, happy to be here, happy for this moment.
0:39
So I guess jumping in, could you share a little bit about your
0:43
background and your matcha brand Homecoming matcha, Sure.
0:47
I guess me, I'm from Denver and based here right now and work as
0:52
a graphic designer by trade. And kind of my macho journey
0:55
started years and years and years ago.
0:57
I kind of grew up drinking tea with my dad.
0:59
And so a lot of that is like Chinese tea.
1:02
And my dad just drinks tea religiously.
1:04
The man does not drink water. Yeah.
1:06
So whenever even up to now when I go home to my parents house,
1:10
he, you know, puts the kettle on.
1:12
It's tea before dinner. It's tea after dinner, it's tea.
1:15
And so that's just kind of been my normal.
1:18
When I was doing college and kind of doing a lot of studying
1:21
and working in cafes, it was like, you know, grabbing a
1:24
coffee. And in times where I just really
1:27
wanted a tea, green tea latte was on the menu.
1:30
I'm not sure if that was matcha way back in the day, but that
1:32
was kind of, you know, my entry point.
1:34
And I'm like, yeah, it's nice. It's steamed milk with green tea
1:37
flavor, green tea essence. And I guess I've always been
1:40
drawn to green tea dessert as well.
1:43
But during the pandemic, I got really into matcha and just
1:46
started, you know, buying 10s of it, sifting it, and really fell
1:50
in love with the ritual of it. And it kind of became my
1:52
constant through a lot of chaos. And about a year ago, I think is
1:57
when I kind of hunkered down and really got into researching it,
2:01
going into it And where I am, there's no good matcha around.
2:04
And I just kind of wanted to bring that here and kind of have
2:09
my own source of it and kind of work on my dream matcha brand.
2:13
So that's kind of where Homecoming was born.
2:17
I was also born in Japan and the kind of my first big trip back
2:22
to Japan, my parents had lived there for a decade.
2:25
And my Chinese name is named after Tokyo, where I was born.
2:29
And so I just kind of felt like it was a big kismet or ambulance
2:33
homecoming trip where I got to do a lot of inspiration,
2:38
sourcing, meeting farmers and all that, and meeting you guys
2:42
in person. So it's just been a really
2:44
special journey and that's homecoming.
2:47
Just kind of my take on my dream Matcha brand.
2:50
Yeah, it's a really homecoming, Homecoming both ways, you know,
2:54
going back to Japan for you and then bring Matcha back to the US
2:59
for the brand. Definitely.
3:03
Yeah, that's cool. So what is your dream matcha
3:06
brand like? What was the, I guess the
3:08
visionary state and then how did you bring that to life?
3:14
Feel like my brain is going in a million directions.
3:17
I think like 1. As a designer I do judge things
3:22
based on the cover. So for example I'll buy wine
3:26
based on pre packaging. I just love a little surprise
3:29
and delight moments. And so I'm coming to something I
3:33
spent a lot of time like going back and forth on design on
3:36
Ultimately, when you guys see it, it's it's a very stripped
3:41
down version and very simplified version of a million iterations
3:44
of what it was. But dream much brand, I think.
3:47
I guess it's something where it takes the guesswork out.
3:50
I'm trying to give as much information as I can about the
3:53
macho, about the products. I'm the girl in the grocery
3:56
store where I read the label, read through all the olive oils.
4:00
I just kind of like knowing where my food comes from.
4:03
And I love a brand story. I love the community aspect of
4:06
it. So kind of with Homecoming, I
4:09
wanted it to be an extension of everyone else and everyone to
4:13
see a reflection of themselves in it and kind of celebrate just
4:17
the spirit of what Homecoming is.
4:18
You know, it's a return to yourself.
4:20
It can be a safe space, it's warm and fuzzy, it's cozy, it's
4:24
sparking joy and just little moments.
4:26
Or it can just be like peace within yourself.
4:29
So kind of a lot of variance of it that I think everyone can
4:34
resonate with. I think that's my dream Matcha
4:36
brand, just something accessible as well.
4:39
For example, I'm not an influencer, so I'm just kind of
4:42
telling it as it is. And yeah, just trying to be the
4:48
most real and authentic I suppose, if that makes sense.
4:53
That's awesome. And you know, I think it's like
4:55
a big thing that's missing from a lot of new matcha brands is
4:58
it's not like reflective of the founder or of like reflective in
5:04
a way that other people can see themselves through the product.
5:08
Because you see brands like, I don't know if you know, like fly
5:11
by Jing or some like this really cool new like of especially like
5:17
Asian food products or Asian. Inspired.
5:20
Food products that are telling a much more authentic story, not
5:24
from the culture or the history that it's from, but of like
5:29
themselves. It's true to itself as those
5:33
founders with their experiences. And like I, I really see your
5:36
brand positioning kind of living in that same space.
5:39
That's Ryan. Yeah, that's so nice.
5:41
I think when I first started Homecoming 2, I was like,
5:44
worried, OK, am I doing much of justice as a Japanese product?
5:49
I'm ethnically Chinese, You know, my parents have that
5:52
history in Japan. I've always felt this pull to
5:55
Japan and felt like I needed to kind of visit those roots more.
6:00
You know, it's my namesake. It's all that.
6:02
But also, I grew up with this image my parents showed me.
6:06
It was my mom and dad. My mom was carrying me at that
6:09
time and it was in full bloom of cherry blossom season.
6:14
And so for some reason as a kid, that image was so evocative.
6:19
That became me kind of through my teenage years, my young adult
6:23
life, I've always kind of been searching for that and curious
6:27
about that and just kind of made my own, you know, in my own
6:31
imagination was like, Oh my gosh, that was my parents life.
6:34
And this is where I come from. And so how I understand Matcha
6:38
and how I'm how I am, you know, born in Japan, ethnically
6:43
Chinese, immigrated to America, I'm a third culture kid.
6:46
And this is how I make sense of matcha.
6:48
And I think inevitably matcha is becoming more and more modern
6:53
slash contemporary slash, whatever people make it.
6:57
And so I still want to honor its roots and also kind of put my
7:01
essence in it and kind of put that out into the world again,
7:05
with high regard and respect to kind of the process of tea
7:09
farming and paying regard to that, paying homage to that.
7:12
And, you know, that comes with working with farmers really
7:15
closely and, you know, doing these sourcing trips and just
7:18
having that community around and transparency in the business.
7:24
That's just kind of how I'd like to carry that.
7:27
Really. Really.
7:29
It's really cool, yeah. Yeah, it's really one of the.
7:33
I think the true forms of authenticity is to stay true to
7:37
yourself, and I think this is a very good narrative.
7:42
If I were to ask you guys what your dream matcha brand, what
7:45
would that look like? That's something we talk about
7:49
very often. And we?
7:53
The answer changes. We frequently have different
7:56
fantasies about about that. And I, Ryan, you want to go
8:01
ahead and share yours. Yeah, well, I have.
8:04
I have a feeling what you're going to say, but no, on my
8:08
side, I really like MTCHS motto Matcha for everyone.
8:12
I find that deeply inspiring and think that like you need to have
8:17
things that are accessible at all price points.
8:19
So I think a lot of transparency and a really wide diversity of
8:26
flavor profiles and origin and processing steps.
8:29
Would love to create a matcha or tencha brand under our label
8:34
someday that would look and feel like some of the better coffee
8:38
companies. Like there's a roaster called
8:41
say in New York and they're just constantly buying small, lots of
8:46
interesting things and roasting them and you'll just never get
8:50
bored. There's always something new and
8:52
there's tons of variety and it's insanely transparently labeled.
8:58
Like they say the price that the farmer got, they said the price
9:01
that's fresh off the boat, like the fret, like all of the supply
9:05
chain pricing. I don't know if we would ever
9:08
get that far, but I would find a company like that very
9:11
interesting. And then maybe creating a couple
9:13
blends that are transparently labeled, but are trying to keep
9:17
some flavor profile consistencies, especially for
9:20
businesses and kind of meeting their needs where what's your
9:25
sound? Well, fantasy of the bunch of
9:29
company that I want to see do not exist yet, but I'm more
9:35
viewing this as a kind of the equipment and the infrastructure
9:40
side of the Matcha world and which is we're working on right
9:43
now. But I really feel very highly of
9:47
a fellow this company that makes coffee equipments, their
9:50
aesthetics and their focus on position and delivery of
9:56
consistency. I find it very inspiring.
9:59
And also for Matcha the self. We actually talked about that a
10:02
few days ago. I think Ryan, you and I about
10:06
there is not yet a sort of kind of like a really ground truth
10:10
reference for people that can educate themselves for what
10:14
exactly is this cultivar? What exactly is this Tawa, You
10:18
know, like Watsuka or Ruchi or Yame, like something that's you
10:22
know, that people can accept it as a ground truth and then they
10:26
can learn from estate reading all the materials and then they
10:30
can actually taste those tea coming from those regions.
10:34
I think some kind of like a really reference, kind of almost
10:37
like a library of matcha Would be super cool to see that in the
10:41
future or if they already exist. A little bit, but like, not that
10:45
easily accessible, actually. Yeah.
10:47
Especially in a way where you have controlled variables.
10:50
It's actually my biggest complaint is when you say you
10:54
want to get into wine, the single greatest piece of advice
10:57
anyone gives you is you just got a taste a lot.
11:00
Yeah. And you would think that would
11:02
be true. I mean, it's true in tea, too.
11:05
I mean, you just taste a lot. But it's ironically not true in
11:08
matcha. And it was just dawning on me
11:10
earlier today that the people who have the most social and
11:14
economic capital to spend on matcha or to have access to it
11:20
and the highest, like, most elite consumers know almost
11:24
nothing about the product. Like the people who spend the
11:28
most money and who have the most access know the least.
11:31
If you compare it to any other industry, a lot of weird
11:35
structural barriers to, like, get to know the product.
11:39
And it's because this, like, library doesn't exist.
11:43
Yeah. Even like getting access to this
11:45
stuff probably even if someone like in industry might be a
11:49
little difficult. Yeah, and also Cube.
11:53
Access to farmers because of access to knowledge and the
11:56
auctions and the fact that most of the stuff is already
11:59
committed to an existing contracts.
12:02
And also not just the good stuff, like some some of the
12:06
intentionally flaw things that the not intentional, but some of
12:10
the flaw products that you probably wouldn't end up having
12:14
the reference anyway from any other sources that that would be
12:18
interesting to have that in this library.
12:21
Like I can have a product that it's on label that this product
12:26
or this tea has been bitten by the tea jacket or they call it
12:29
Inka in a Japanese. And if you taste it, you know,
12:33
the reference of the, you know, adjusted bitten matcha flavor or
12:37
tea flavor, or this tea has been slightly more oxidized before
12:41
processing and you can taste the oxidation note in this tea.
12:45
And that's what you can learn from this product.
12:48
I think that will be something that very interesting.
12:51
Yeah, because somewhat their flaws might be things that we
12:54
like. Apparently those Jacid bitten
12:56
tea similar to like the Taiwanese or Dongfal Mehran, the
13:02
oriental beauty. Apparently it's in the matcha
13:06
context. It's quite floral and I D in
13:09
Thailand was or sorry, not D pop in Thailand was telling me that
13:16
a lot of the blenders and buyers for matcha that taste this tea
13:20
go around to all of the different cupping bowls,
13:22
slurping and they're like defect, defect, defect, defect
13:27
and then starting to lower price.
13:29
Yeah, sorry Dee. We kind of hijacked this
13:32
interview a little bit, but. No, I love it.
13:35
I'm obsessed yes, I'm like, tell me more.
13:41
You know, I, I, I really like that and I love both of your
13:45
dream fantasy brands because it kind of draws on, you know, kind
13:50
of your values and it comes from, you know, you're, you guys
13:54
are fountains of knowledge. So it's, it's really cool to
13:57
see, you know, what is important to the consumer and what is
14:01
close to the heart. That's really cool.
14:03
Well, we really view ourselves mostly as students that really
14:06
want to learn these references and just can't.
14:10
It's like, I don't know if it's intentionally gate kept, but at
14:13
least it's in the structural constraints are gatekeeping the
14:17
ability to do this turning. Maybe a fountain, but the water
14:21
is definitely coming from everybody we don't generate.
14:24
The community pool. OK, fair enough.
14:29
So do what? What's your experience been like
14:32
finding farmers and meeting them and like deciding who you wanted
14:37
to work with? Gosh, it's been whirlwind.
14:41
I think in the very beginning when I was like, OK, step one,
14:45
find a farmer, right? I messaged I think 6 farmers and
14:50
three got back to me right away. So I was like, oh, this would be
14:53
a piece of cake, right? My first farmer said no thank
14:57
you. Second farmer said OK, yeah,
14:59
sure. Third farmer said yeah, sure.
15:02
So I was like exactly. I was like, OK, I'm going to
15:05
have this whole lobster farmers, like I can't wait to meet
15:07
everyone. But I think everyone since that
15:10
I've reached out to has been either like no replies or like,
15:14
yeah, maybe it's just been a ton of back and forth.
15:17
So just the timing of it has just been unexpected.
15:21
But the two, my original like OG 2, I got to meet them in Kyoto
15:27
and it was kind of surreal. You know, one of them hired a
15:30
translator and I think just picked me up from the station
15:34
and they were looking for an American looking person.
15:38
And so we were just kind of both at the train station for half an
15:42
hour. You know, I didn't have Wi-Fi at
15:45
the station, I guess, but we were just both standing right in
15:48
front of each other. I didn't want to go up because,
15:51
you know, stranger dangers. I want to be like, hey, it's me.
15:54
Are you you? They're like, Oh my gosh, we
15:57
were looking for an American. And so just a lot of, you know,
16:01
kind of worms and a lot of discourse can be said about
16:03
that. But it was just quite funny.
16:05
But once we started talking, they showed me the field.
16:07
They showed me kind of through the town.
16:10
They were like, so why are you here?
16:13
I was like, I thought, you know, to get to know each other.
16:16
I guess all all that is to say, like conversations were just
16:20
fairly more simple and it's just like to the basics where I'm, I
16:25
feel like I'm like, let's have a conversation, Let's really
16:28
connect. Tell me about your family, tell
16:30
me about your life, tell me about your golden dreams and
16:33
aspiration. That was like farmer number one.
16:36
It was it was quite cool though. And I think maybe it's because
16:40
they live in, I want to tell you know, this is their world.
16:44
It's quite simple. You know, they focus on the
16:47
farming, they focus on family and like that's life, right?
16:51
My second farmer is in UG and he was really interesting to me
16:55
because he's around our age and he speaks English.
16:59
And so it is just kind of a really fun perspective to get
17:03
he's 10th generation feminist brother taking over for their
17:07
father. And that was just like a really
17:10
fun experience because I asked him anything under the sun and
17:14
he kind of had an answer for it. And it was just cool to see
17:18
someone so young have a lot of enthusiasm for farming and tea
17:23
farming. And his kids drank matcha.
17:25
I think his son was like 3 years old when I met him.
17:29
So almost like 2 ends of the spectrum where one farmer was
17:33
older and super simple, super businesslike and the other was
17:38
like young fun, like super fresh.
17:41
And he kind of inspires me and gives me hope for kind of what
17:46
macho looks like moving forward, what the industry could look
17:48
like. Did I answer your question?
17:51
Yeah, no, absolutely. When you were in Kyoto and in
17:54
Japan, what was your experience doing tea retail?
17:59
Gosh, I'm trying to think do. You do you find the experience
18:04
confusing and did did you ask any questions of them other than
18:08
you know the price? Yes I found it confusing mostly
18:11
because I can't read Japanese but also even me looking at cans
18:16
or you know Google translating kind of scanning the text.
18:20
I'm not sure what's in this matcha.
18:22
You guys have touched on poetic names a lot, but I felt that
18:26
everything was named after a poetic name.
18:29
And I was like, oh, but this had the same name as you know, a
18:32
Masha I saw but at a lower end yesterday, using the no
18:36
Makashi's for example, I have two matchas with the exact same
18:39
name on different ends of price range and quality range.
18:43
And so yeah, I think in terms of understanding what type of
18:48
matcha I was getting or cultivars were in, it's kind of
18:52
honestly what I was buying. It was a little bit confusing.
18:55
Definitely had to resort to the staff to make recommendations.
18:58
Yeah, we, we felt in a very similar state.
19:02
It was, it's sometimes quite a mystery.
19:06
I was reflecting on it the other day.
19:08
We were in Yamai and kind of accidentally walked into a store
19:11
that sold no matcha but they specialized in the deep steamed
19:16
sanja fuka mushi sanja. OK.
19:19
And they had like, I don't know, like 20 different products and
19:24
we tried so hard like asking what is the difference There
19:30
price range was huge and they were all supposedly from yame
19:35
and it was just such a mystery. And it's it's really not unique
19:38
to just matcha, but we've had some but pretty confusing.
19:43
We're very confused at the way prop how anyone goes to Japan
19:47
and knows I even if you speak Japanese from a lot of these
19:52
traditional players. Yeah, that's reassuring then,
19:55
because I was, it was kind of like almost a catalog put it in
19:59
front of me and I was like, I, I can't even tell.
20:02
I'm. I'm just not sure because big
20:04
question mark. And I think every, I remember
20:06
asking like, OK, so if you can picture like a line of 10
20:11
matchas, a range of matchas from the same brands.
20:14
And I was like, OK, so #3 and #7 kind of what's the difference
20:18
when you talk me through? It was kind of like 7 is more
20:21
expensive, he's less expensive, 7 will be more sweet.
20:25
Yeah, so it was. I said, OK, OK, so you just kind
20:29
of have to leave that to interpretation or until you try
20:32
it. But yeah, that's reassuring to
20:35
hear. It was kind of the same
20:36
experience. Although, you know, I think it
20:38
is changing a little bit. We found one place in Kyoto, I
20:41
think, was it called T 7? Is that right, Sam?
20:44
Something like that, yeah. I think so.
20:46
And they had cultivars. Actually they had quite a few
20:49
single cultivar matchas. And they had some very unusual
20:53
Japanese loose leaf tea that we're doing some like crazy
20:57
fermentations like Koji fermentations and macho
21:00
bacillus. Yeah, they have all the
21:03
different variations of Koishi Cha and I've read about that,
21:08
but I've never end up, you know, trying them until we we went
21:12
there and it was a very interesting experience.
21:16
I don't like them at the end, but it's nice to have the
21:20
reference. And I will will spare the
21:24
reference flavors for. One of them.
21:26
One of them was really unappetizing.
21:31
They were more interesting than good.
21:33
But you know, that's what innovation is, right?
21:36
Like, you know, you try some stuff, it works and maybe
21:39
someone's cup of tea, like you never want to yuck someone
21:42
else's Yum. But it's that's cool to see.
21:48
Or maybe it's just not for us. Maybe you would like AD, we'll
21:52
send you an address and you can try and tell us.
21:54
How do you feel? I feel like I have to know this
21:56
reference. No, it's, there's some really
21:59
interesting innovative stuff going on.
22:00
And I feel like the retail landscape is slowly changing.
22:03
It probably is much more polarizing.
22:06
It really has its own niche of people that like, really like it
22:09
and then, you know, they're just more diverse product set for a
22:14
more diverse set of like pallets basically.
22:19
So one of the hot topics of the industry right now is the matcha
22:23
shortage. How how has it impacted you and
22:25
your sourcing and your planning moving forward?
22:29
That's a super hot topic. Yeah.
22:30
So I work with kind of family producers at the moment, and
22:35
there have been times where I'm ordering matcha from them and
22:39
they're either so slams because of the demand on their end, or
22:42
they're like, oh, we're actually completely out.
22:45
So that's happened with both farmers actually.
22:48
And so that's one, a little concerning, right?
22:52
And two, I think made me want to almost have expand my roster and
22:59
expand my lineup of matcha, you know, kind of celebrate farmers
23:02
from different regions. And that way this is kind of
23:06
also shaped my business model too, but kind of provide a
23:11
regional assortment, I mean, a certain of different watches
23:16
from different regions. And that way the consumer can
23:18
kind of taste, you know, Matcha throughout Japan.
23:22
And that's kind of the plan going forward because if I'm
23:25
relying on just one or two farmers, that can happen and
23:29
that can be a big stop gap in the business.
23:32
So just hopefully working with a lot more farmers, ordering in
23:36
the small batches and kind of in my messaging for Homecoming,
23:41
just to like sip intentionally. And I'm hoping that with the
23:45
information I'm putting out or kind of when consumers
23:48
understand process of how much it comes to be, that can kind of
23:53
shift the paradigm into the buying culture and consuming
23:57
culture. Just even opening up to like,
24:00
OK, like for lattes, I don't have to use a Creme de la Creme
24:05
matcha, you know. So just kind of more aware and
24:08
cognizant of how we're consuming it.
24:13
But yeah, it was kind of scary when, you know, my friend was
24:15
like, I'm completely out right now.
24:17
You know, I did a video special and I'm sold out.
24:20
But oh, OK. Yeah.
24:22
So there have been some delays in the timeline.
24:25
So it's very real. Very, very real.
24:28
Yeah. Even talking with with him this
24:31
week, I was like, hey, I have some events coming up next
24:34
month. I think I'm going to need extra
24:36
stock and he's like no can do. Very short.
24:39
But yeah, I'm not sure what the right answer is, but just trying
24:43
to do 1 foot in front of the other trying to figure that out.
24:46
So in terms of finding more regional assortment of Mata, are
24:50
you planning for another sourcing trip back to Japan?
24:53
And if So, what are some of the regions that you wanted to
24:57
discovered and explore? Yes and yes.
24:59
I'm not sure when, maybe later this year, but right now I have
25:03
like Shizuoka, Wazuka and Uji for the tea.
25:07
I really love yame cha myself. I love those toasted notes and
25:12
you know, nutty notes. So yame, just visiting some
25:16
parties around Kyushu would be really, really fun because
25:19
that's my personal preference to can flavor some stuff.
25:23
So I think that's perhaps the next source of trip.
25:26
Nice, sounds awesome. Yeah, we love yame tea too.
25:29
Yeah, cool. It's actually like weirdly hard
25:32
to source good Yamai tea in the states.
25:35
I don't know, feels under represented.
25:38
It's hard to source in Japan. One recommendation do get a
25:42
international driver's permit. Try to hire a car.
25:46
Because. Some of the places are pretty
25:48
hard to get to public transportation.
25:51
Wow, OK. We had to walk in the rice field
25:57
for like 20 minutes. Oh.
26:00
Yummy after we get off at the last stop of a bus line to get
26:05
to one place. OK, yeah, I'm going to need a
26:10
guide and a license. Yeah, OK.
26:13
Because I feel like I'd be the blind leading the blind.
26:16
I'm just walking through fields. Yeah, we really learned quickly
26:20
that the public transportation infrastructure has an end.
26:27
Wow, the Obooboo people in Mazuka, they did their
26:30
crowdfunding for the bus because you know what's even now getting
26:35
to Azuka is a little bit difficult to do any type of tea
26:40
visits, etcetera. So yeah, transportation actually
26:44
is a bit of an issue. And ironically enough, after
26:47
that 20-30 minute walk in the hot sun, I had put in the wrong
26:51
place. And the place that we showed up
26:52
to didn't even sell matcha. Amazing.
26:56
Yep, and somehow we're still partners, Ryan.
27:00
Somehow. Incredible.
27:03
Yeah. So what's your approach to to go
27:07
to market in terms of go to market strategy as you launch,
27:11
I'm assuming locally in Denver 1st and then expanding from
27:14
there? Mm hmm.
27:15
That's the plan I hope to stock from coming in kind of a few of
27:19
my local cafes and in the works with some collaboration events.
27:23
So I'm slinging matcha while people are making pottery,
27:27
right? I'm slinging matcha and it's a
27:30
music show. I'm just trying to get more of
27:32
the community involved. A lot of word of mouth and I
27:36
started, I guess in hands. I'm looking back years and years
27:39
and years ago, I made this alias on Instagram.
27:42
It was kind of during COVID time, so there was a lot of
27:44
noise on the Internet. I made this alias called Girl
27:47
with Matcha, and it was just an account.
27:50
I had nothing to do with Homecoming back then, but it's
27:53
just something I liked. And I wanted to have a faceless
27:56
account where I can follow a lot of art and design and so be
27:59
inspired to kind of filter out the noise.
28:01
And since a few months ago, I kind of revitalized that account
28:06
and used it to make Masha or, you know, through all my
28:10
tastings and learnings and recipes, kind of build a mini
28:14
community there. Again, I am no influencer, but
28:18
there's been like a really fun core group there and hopefully
28:23
that's that's been kind of where I'm sharing some news.
28:27
But yeah, I think so far go to market plan is just like word of
28:31
mouth local e-commerce and see if that can take.
28:36
And hopefully I'm doing pop ups like I have one in LA next month
28:40
and hopefully one in New York this summer.
28:43
Hopefully that can kind of make its footing in different markets
28:46
as well. Cool.
28:47
Are you going to stick to mostly like direct to consumer or are
28:50
you going to do AB to B sales as well?
28:53
I think if there's AB out there that wants to stop this B is
28:57
down. So I would love to stock and I,
29:01
I think it's a good opportunity to to kind of like go in, you
29:07
know, have a tasting and kind of give them equipment too.
29:11
What I'm seeing in cafes around me is kind of just a really sad
29:16
chuss. And I'm seeing green on it.
29:19
You guys, I have to tell you this.
29:20
And I think this is a safe space, but I went to Cafe.
29:24
It's a fun little cafe here in Denver.
29:26
And I saw them using a big sift. So this sift is like the size of
29:31
your head, like a small pizza. I think that's the size of our
29:35
heads. OK.
29:36
And she was dumping a big bag of green powder in there and then a
29:42
big bag of white powder in there.
29:44
And it was this tub, like this clear tub, like heavy duty tub.
29:48
And she was just sifting it. I was like, OK, that's for sure
29:51
for like a tiramisu, like she's cooking.
29:54
And so my nose itself, I was like, excuse me, what you make
29:57
in there, girl? And she said, matcha, this is
30:00
our matcha blend. And I'm like, what are you
30:02
blending? And she said it's powdered sugar
30:04
and it's matcha. And that's their house blend for
30:08
matcha lattes. And I think I was just a little
30:12
mortified. All all that to say is like, I
30:15
am very open to B to B because I almost want to go in and tell
30:19
them about it. And, you know, almost part of
30:22
the, you know, consuming with intention is kind of
30:25
understanding the product and how we can respect the product
30:28
and love the product. And, you know, not mixing the
30:31
matcha with a tub of powdered sugar probably make a product
30:34
last so much longer. It was slander, you guys.
30:38
I didn't say anything. Maybe I should have, but I think
30:42
I was just paralyzed from what I was seeing.
30:45
Maybe you might feel as bad with those matcha coming from
30:48
Kagoshima or China maybe. Probably.
30:51
I mean, even in Paris you could you go to like one of the Korean
30:54
grocery stores, they have a 1 kilogram bag of matcha from
31:00
Kagoshima. It's €50.
31:03
It's like wow, retail, wow. It's so cheap.
31:08
It makes you really concerned. Like what is Oh my God, I was
31:12
almost tempted to buy it but it felt like too much food waste
31:15
because I knew I wasn't going to like it.
31:17
But very curious what the baseline quality was there
31:21
knowing that that that is probably what a lot of the local
31:25
businesses are buying because who else buys 1 kilogram bag of
31:28
matcha for a few? Have.
31:31
You been seeing a lot of these like concentrated syrups in
31:34
Denver has that has that hit yet like these pre mixed with water
31:39
matcha syrup things drinks. Gosh, I haven't seen it in
31:44
Denver, but I've seen it on the Internet.
31:47
They seem to be more and more common.
31:50
Actually. Before a year ago I didn't see
31:52
them anywhere and then all of a sudden I'm noticing them
31:55
everywhere and even at like much of specialty places, I've never
31:59
had one that was exceptional. I've had some that were decent,
32:03
but I'm still a little skeptical of this preparation method.
32:08
Same. I'm trying to make sense of it
32:10
and I can't at the moment. So Dee, what's your current
32:14
matcha line up right now? You know, as you're launching
32:16
Homecoming Matcha, you know, what are some of the first
32:19
products that we can expect? Yay.
32:22
OK, so I think earlier y'all asked me dream matcha brand and
32:27
something else I wanted to add is kind of accessibility or kind
32:31
of fostering A curiosity and personal preference for matcha.
32:35
And that's part of, you know, a self learning journey too.
32:38
And so I have a line up where there's an oka Midori that's
32:44
really friendly for beginners and enthusiasts.
32:48
It's good as usucha. And if people like a little dash
32:51
of milk do that thing, have a fun site in Midori that's kocha
32:57
grade. And so young people can
33:00
experience, you know, doing usucha and kocha what they're
33:02
trying much a straight. There's a really fun, naturally
33:05
grown fujicha and it is rusty, toasty, kind of filling the void
33:10
of my yomi preference moments. And then, yeah, and then a
33:19
matcha blend. And I've named it the Uji blend,
33:21
just paying homage to my farmer, the Matcha Capital, where he
33:25
blends it and he kind of uses it in his own Matcha Cafe.
33:29
And so I think that would be a really good point, a starting
33:33
point for everyday matcha latte. Love hers and, you know, doing
33:39
crafts that were just from that and then just a little fun
33:42
accessories, the brand expand. That's not just kind of like
33:46
Ryan, you touch on MTCH like matcha for all.
33:49
My tagline is kind of like matcha for you, me and friends
33:52
and family. It's just something, you know,
33:54
to share something to vibe out on something for yourself.
34:00
And then Sam, you kind of mentioned like aesthetics from
34:02
fellow kind of functionality, and hopefully it's a little bit
34:06
of that in Homecoming. It's just a safe brand, a
34:09
welcoming brand. I just hope everyone just drinks
34:12
matcha, finds out what they like and is excited to learn more,
34:16
taste more, drink more, but intentionally nice.
34:21
Yeah, love it. I think it's a good range too
34:26
because it really is like like you have like a natural ladder
34:29
and upgrade cycle, but there's also like really high diversity
34:33
of of flavor profiles. And it's Hojicha powder.
34:38
It's Hojicha powder, Yes, yes. Nice, nice.
34:41
I actually really like it. Me too.
34:45
That's my beauty pleasure. Oh my gosh, that's so
34:48
interesting. Yeah, I think in Japan when we
34:52
went, it was so hot, right, 6-7 months ago.
34:56
And I think just kind of in the restaurants that you sit down
34:59
in, it was like chilled hojicha, but it was from leaves.
35:04
But yet this powder, I tried it. It's, you know, grown from
35:08
organic farming in Japan. So, you know, I just had all
35:11
these consumptions going in. What's the flavor like?
35:14
I don't know how organic Koji Cho works, but it's really
35:18
delightful. So yeah, kind of you'll see
35:20
pleasure. I mean, there's no guilt, but
35:23
it's all pleasure. It's it's quite nice and
35:25
delightful. So I'm excited, yeah.
35:27
It's so refreshing and it's a bit easier on the stomach too.
35:31
Totally. Actually, I've been thinking a
35:33
lot about this recently is like, you know, you hear about in
35:36
business, like the jobs to be done framework like popularized
35:39
by Clay Christensen. And I was thinking that that's a
35:42
great framework to view matcha because like one job of matcha
35:45
is for a latte. One job of matcha is like for a
35:49
sensitive stomach when you haven't had food yet.
35:51
Like 1 is when you really need a push. 1 is like where you want
35:55
to be contemplative and like, you know, you can no, no matter
36:00
where you are in the experience spectrum as a consumer, like
36:03
there's just sometimes that I just want caffeine or I just
36:07
want something refreshing and I don't really care about anything
36:10
else. And like, I, I think that like
36:13
the products in your portfolio really like hit the jobs to be
36:16
done. Different consumers have but or
36:19
the same consumer could have it at any one point.
36:21
Thank you. Yeah, hopefully people will like
36:25
and want to try more, and I'll bring in more tea from different
36:29
regions and farmers. Awesome.
36:31
When you do collaborations, do you would you plan to use
36:35
different combination of these tea for different like events
36:39
like maybe pottery for a specific type of tea, for music
36:43
for a specific type of tea or just a thought?
36:47
Yeah, I'm not in the loving desk with Potteries.
36:50
I'm actually having this event this weekend at a local ceramic
36:55
studio. Yeah, I'm highlighting like a
36:57
matcha and a hojicha. So just kind of basics.
37:01
And we made it into a theme of like, you know, hojicha brown.
37:04
And so is the clay at the studio.
37:06
So kind of naming it after the clay with the lattes.
37:11
I'm doing 1 like two ways. 1 is a strawberry matcha, so using
37:15
that Uji blend matcha and 1 is just normal matcha latte, which
37:20
I'll use the Okima jewelry for. And so kind of people can get a
37:24
little tasting of just kind of all three, but I think
37:27
definitely tailoring different matchas for different
37:30
experiences for like the music show, there's going to be little
37:33
bites included. So maybe seeing the menu and
37:37
what will complement that, I think that would be very.
37:39
Fun, yeah. And just like this is sort of an
37:41
indulgent question for us, believe it or not, like off
37:44
camera, I'm a little bit shy, especially in person.
37:49
How do you go about approaching these like other businesses to
37:53
do collaborations or pop ups like what's the like 0 to one on
37:58
the way that you like approach them and kind of pitch the idea?
38:03
How do you go about setting up these kind of collaborations?
38:07
Yeah, right now it's kind of word of mouth.
38:10
And so ceramic studio, I took some lessons from these girls
38:15
and they now have their own studio.
38:16
And sometimes I go into practice pottery.
38:19
I'm not good, but I go in and I practice.
38:22
And so it's just kind of catching up conversations.
38:25
And usually in a market like Denver, I feel like people are
38:28
down to help people or, you know, the creative community,
38:32
food community is still kind of small, I think in my eyes.
38:35
So if you know one person, they'll kind of talk about it to
38:38
someone else or they're like, Oh my gosh, I have someone else who
38:40
would love that. So that's that.
38:43
And I think in terms of like cafes, I don't really know cafe
38:47
owners. So it might be a cold pitch, it
38:50
might be me showing up. I feel you with the introvert
38:53
thing, because I'm actually pretty introverted myself.
38:55
I think it's just putting on this persona.
38:58
I used to be a pro cheerleader and so I literally put that
39:01
persona on and I love hyping people up.
39:04
So it's kind of just having those conversations and seeing
39:08
how I can help or how I can enhance that Cafe experience.
39:13
It's more of like what I could do for them and not like what
39:16
they could do for me. Always looking at it from the
39:18
perspective like take picture community, like I just want to
39:22
help you. How can I help you get there?
39:24
How can I support you? I think, you know, Homecoming
39:28
can be a good partner in this. Let me jazz this up.
39:32
Just being a hype girl. OK, that's a, that's a great
39:36
very much a give first kind of framework.
39:39
Yeah, definitely. I think that's what tea is all
39:43
about, you know, just the hospitality, the sharing.
39:46
And I love that sentiment about tea too.
39:49
Same tea people are really the best.
39:51
Yep, tea. People are the best.
39:53
Very pure and you can really feel it.
39:56
It's something you feel. It's not something you say like
39:59
it's, you know, it's, it's feel like you either get the feeling
40:03
or you don't. Yeah, genuine tea people are
40:06
really great. You definitely feel that when
40:09
talking to, you know, some companies in Japan, some farmers
40:14
strike you as, you know, a tea person, a charging says.
40:19
Some others feels much more familiar.
40:23
Because we used to work with a lot of corporate people in
40:27
Japan, we definitely had a familiar familiarity back from
40:34
talking to them. Totally.
40:38
That's. A kind way of doing it.
40:40
Yeah. My my UGI farmer Taishi earlier,
40:44
I think I asked him when we're meeting, like, how do you know
40:48
who to work with or the right people to work?
40:50
Because again, I wanted to approach macho just super
40:53
respectfully. I'm like, look, if you don't
40:54
think we're the right fit, like I just want this to work for
40:57
you. And he's like, it's a feeling.
40:59
Like I quote, he said. It's a feeling.
41:02
And so maybe this is real, this tea, energies, fashion comes
41:06
forward. It's just, you know, let's
41:08
gather around. It's bigger than yourself.
41:13
A great, that's a great quote. I feel exactly the same too,
41:16
even it's like we're like planning on launching our own
41:19
products and our beta tester program for the mills and stuff
41:23
like it. It like as we want to find
41:26
partners to work with, like a lot of it is just a gut feel
41:29
like because especially in like the early days as we try to
41:33
launch new products and bring them to market, finding the
41:35
right partners that are going to be constructive and honest and
41:40
all these things really like the the charge in tea people kind of
41:44
personality type, you kind of have to feel everyone out.
41:48
In tea, we trust. There we go.
41:51
And let's make T-shirts. There we go would be cool.
41:55
So one of the unique things about this day and age and being
41:59
AUS based business are this all of the tariffs that are going up
42:04
and changing every hour it seems so sort of as a small upcoming
42:10
business. How have the the tariffs in the
42:13
Trump administration and effect? Gosh, it's something that's like
42:18
quite heavy and real. I feel like at the moment the
42:21
matcha is quote safe just because tariffs in Japan are OK
42:27
right now. I will say I'm making matcha
42:30
kits and my tins and other things like for the matcha are
42:34
manufactured in China. So I work with Chinese partners
42:37
to bring those to light. And I think in the past two
42:41
weeks, just my invoices, I would pay an invoice and because of
42:45
the time difference, my project manager would get back to me and
42:49
say, oh, you know, it's actually can you get PayPal $66 more?
42:55
And I was like, you know, the invoice was what it was
42:58
yesterday. So there have been increases and
43:01
over a week, I think just kind of those totals have gone a
43:05
little out of hand. It's hard to make sense of too
43:09
because, you know, with a small business, I'm bootstrapping this
43:16
and I don't know, it's a little invasive to where I'm like,
43:20
wait, what this cost? How much now?
43:22
And I can't expect my customers to kind of have that sort of
43:26
inflation. So it is a little bit like I
43:28
have to look inward and be like, OK, what is valuable here?
43:32
Will this matter in two months? Can I wait two months?
43:36
So it's a lot of like shoveling a lot of cards, juggling a lot
43:39
of values, but it's hard to keep up with too.
43:42
Just kind of as you guys mentioned, the numbers keep
43:44
going up. Yeah, a lot of uncertainty.
43:49
Totally. And I think I don't know if,
43:51
like on the March end, Japanese businesses will be reluctant to
43:56
do business with the USI just feel like the US is kind of
43:59
creating a reputation for itself too.
44:01
So it's I think we're all just kind of waiting around seeing
44:04
what happened. But the effects are very real in
44:07
life. It's happening in real time.
44:12
So it's just, it's kind of a funny feeling.
44:14
It's strange. It's it's very weird.
44:16
Yeah, we definitely feel the same way too.
44:19
Yeah. Now for certain categories of
44:22
products coming from China, it's going to be Tarot 245%.
44:30
Wow. Yep, and.
44:32
That number doesn't seem real. No, Yeah, yeah, It seemed real.
44:36
This is like this is all one big Onion article.
44:39
Like seriously, like it's. Yeah, Truly, truly.
44:44
Some seriously Black Mirror. Yes, yes, exactly, exactly.
44:53
It's alternate reality. I think one day, like when we
44:56
tell our kids, oh, 256% on tariffs, they would laugh.
45:01
I think yeah, unless that's the way the world is.
45:04
Ridiculous in the future. Yeah, it's right, because yeah,
45:10
it's a little goofy, but are you guys finding it since, you know,
45:14
you guys are doing your mill and all that?
45:16
It's definitely affecting you guys as well.
45:18
We don't even know like how this is going to work.
45:22
Like if ours mill is not exempt, it means like US customers are
45:27
going to effectively need to pay like 240 something percent more,
45:33
which is just not viable. And this is not something we can
45:36
make in the States. At the very beginning of the
45:39
company, I reached out to two like industrial ceramics
45:42
companies. Like there's no way that like
45:44
even the millstones could be made in America for a company of
45:48
our size. Like they would just laugh off
45:50
that, laugh us out of the room at like our order quantities and
45:55
what we want, let alone for a lot of the other components,
45:58
which probably would be. So at least the base materials
46:01
would probably be sourced from China as well.
46:03
So it's, I don't know, there's like moments of rage in my head.
46:07
Be like, gosh, just like, forget it.
46:10
Let's like sell this to everywhere else in the world
46:13
except the US. They're going to have to wait.
46:15
But of course we can't do that. I mean, it's our home market,
46:17
but like it's very frustrating. Yeah, I bet, I bet I will fly to
46:23
you to get one. Well, we're, we're going to meet
46:27
all of our obligations. We will.
46:30
We will definitely make it happen.
46:33
Maybe we can go talk to some Mexican cartels, Ryan.
46:42
Although we are seriously thinking about assembling it
46:44
somewhere outside of China and then it can be technically made
46:47
in a different country and then brought in.
46:51
It seems like it's what a lot of people are doing through
46:52
Vietnam. But actually we, if we are
46:55
capable doing assembled in Japan would be super cool because I
46:59
also have like super high quality standards for like QA
47:02
check and stuff. So I don't know if we'll go that
47:04
route. But we're still kind of like
47:06
figuring it out too. Like there's no predictability,
47:09
which is the worst part. I mean, we're bootstrapping this
47:11
too. You have to think of how much
47:14
innovation is going to die because you just.
47:16
You can only bootstrap for so long.
47:18
Exactly, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's very painful.
47:21
That was a nice political diversion.
47:24
Yeah, thanks for holding space for that rant.
47:26
It's important to talk about though.
47:28
I mean, I think I, I bet a lot of other much of businesses, you
47:31
know who also source a lot from China, even if their product
47:34
comes from Japan, like China is a pretty important part of all
47:37
of our businesses from packaging to like boxes to.
47:41
Exactly. To Cha Sands to like like all
47:46
all of this stuff like it's. Yeah, macho.
47:50
It's not just macho itself. Yeah, there's the whole system
47:54
around it and. Totally.
47:57
Well, if our listener has any suggestions or any ideas of how
48:03
we can encounter this, please let us know and.
48:06
Please we'll. Be happy to share that to the
48:08
community too. Absolutely.
48:10
Actually, if anyone listening to this does have a like an unusual
48:14
amount of context that they could share to the broader
48:17
community, we would love to have a episode just dedicated to
48:22
advice on navigating the tariff situation for people who are
48:26
either based in the US or where the US is a major customer.
48:30
We would, we would love to distribute that information
48:33
because it seems like everyone has no clue, which is maybe just
48:37
the reality. Hopefully someone out there has
48:39
some wisdom or guidance or, or extra information.
48:43
So I think we have time for one last question.
48:45
So D as a match of founder and someone who's building a match
48:49
of business and sort of this new era of match of companies that
48:52
we're starting to see and with more transparency and you know,
48:55
better a new type of storytelling than what has
48:58
traditionally been done in the way that products have been
49:00
positioned. What would you see as success in
49:04
5 or 10 years as a matcha industry in general?
49:07
Like what? What end state in a 5 to 10 year
49:10
time horizon would you be really happy with as an industry?
49:13
I think with one just kind of the farming decline, having that
49:18
plateau out would be really nice and reassuring thing just to
49:22
kind of have that industry live on with that also.
49:26
And you know, having more knowledge about where matcha
49:28
comes from and knowledge or consumer, because a lot of that
49:32
knowledge of power and without power can come a lot of creative
49:36
innovation like one, what you guys are doing with the over the
49:39
counter Bill? I think that's brilliant, right,
49:43
Getting more attention accessible and fresh ground
49:46
matcha to the people. And the other day I was kind of
49:49
thinking about Oishi Berry. Are you guys familiar with the
49:53
Omakase Strawberry? Oh.
49:54
Yeah, the the paler strawberries or I guess some of them are
49:58
pale, but some of them are like the red ones too.
50:02
Yeah, pale or red or pink, these berries are kind of engineered
50:07
and grown under the quote UN quote perfect conditions.
50:10
And it's vertical farming, urban farming.
50:12
And I just thought that was a really fun take on farming in
50:16
general. I'm kind of an eco girl and the
50:18
climate crisis is on my mind a lot.
50:20
And inevitably that will affect, you know, crop and, you know,
50:26
it's already affecting coffee and prices.
50:28
So it might even have affected much as we know it.
50:31
But I think more innovations where we can bring in a little
50:35
science, You know, what if we can cultivate a urban gardening
50:40
system, maybe, maybe not. But this is wishful thinking of,
50:43
you know, potential leaves, you know, throwing tea plants in an
50:47
urban environment. And that way we can get more
50:50
young farmers to do it. It can be fun projects.
50:53
It can be more accessible. And, you know, this has a lot of
50:57
new ones because obviously much as run in Japan and so are and
51:00
all that. And there's no such thing as,
51:03
you know, the perfect matcha, you know, the perfect tea.
51:06
But just, yeah, I was just kind of thinking the other day about
51:12
the world, the state of the world.
51:14
But if we can just innovate and have more ways of making things
51:18
happen, accessibility and being more open minded, I think we
51:21
could find some really creative solutions to the much shortage.
51:26
And I'm kind of excited to see where that takes, how that can,
51:30
you know, kind of folds into a much future.
51:34
That's awesome. That's a that's a cool idea I've
51:36
never thought about, like vertical farming for.
51:39
I don't know how feasible it is because roots and you know, but
51:43
just yeah, you're. Gonna need that very very soon
51:48
in even in Wuji because the urbanization of Wuji is crazy
51:52
now. A lot of the places were used to
51:54
be tea farms or just, you know, rice fields are now like
51:58
buildings in Wuji. Wow.
52:00
Yeah, Yeah, that's true. Very true.
52:04
Yeah, that's a cool idea It yeah.
52:07
I don't know if how viable it is either, but things like that.
52:09
I mean, anything's possible when it comes to like science and
52:12
technology. I'm very much optimistic science
52:17
and tech person. Love that science.
52:21
Rule. I think the more scientific
52:23
spirit in general that's brought to this is an industry I'd like
52:27
to see and just have more problems solved that way,
52:30
especially on the eco side. I totally agree that there's
52:33
probably some unsustainable methods in like many different
52:37
parts of the tea industry, both on the environmental side and
52:40
the fact that it's just like no one wants to do it anymore,
52:44
broadly speaking. Obviously there's tons of people
52:47
doing it, but there's a lot of people who don't want to enter
52:49
the profession, especially young people.
52:51
That leads to a very questionable future about who's
52:55
going to be making matcha into the future on a broad scale.
53:01
Yeah. Definitely.
53:03
You are seeing a lot of these urbanizations happening at Wuji,
53:06
but also a lot of abandoned farms.
53:08
One of the tea farmers we met in Wuji was talking about that too.
53:11
No one is growing tea anymore except very few people still are
53:15
sticking out around. And he's one of the very few
53:19
younger generation farmer that would go door to door and like
53:24
asking people to lease their land to him and he can make the
53:27
production instead of just having, you know, very precious
53:31
Wooji Tealand sitting there growing weeds.
53:34
Wow. That's crazy and like one of the
53:36
best like terroirs that there is for matcha.
53:39
There's like abandonment going on.
53:41
So sad. Wow, it is very sad, yeah.
53:46
But yeah, I know in the long run, I think I think that the
53:49
science and technology can really help and help with the
53:52
matcha shortage too. Cool.
53:53
Well, I think it's a great place to stop.
53:55
Dee, thank you so much for coming on.
53:57
It's been a long time coming and when, when can we look forward
54:00
to the I, I know you guys sort of had a soft launch.
54:03
Is it officially launched or is there a date yet or like the the
54:06
primary one? At the time of this recording,
54:08
it is launching this week, so it'll be mid-april launching
54:12
this week. Thank you so much.
54:14
I'm excited. I'm nervous.
54:15
I'm all the thing, but I'm stoked.
54:18
Wow. Wonderful.
54:18
I cannot imagine the feeling you know that you've been working on
54:22
this for such a long time. Yeah, it's, it's so funny
54:25
because it's been like, I feel like in my brain for every day
54:28
for a year at all hours, all minutes.
54:30
And now it's like, Oh my gosh, it's real.
54:33
I'm holding A10, you know, So I'm excited to see what everyone
54:36
thinks. Also all the butterflies.
54:39
But I'm hopeful and I just want to take this where as far as I
54:43
can go. Best of luck and anyone
54:45
listening please check out Homecoming Matcha.
54:48
You're on Instagram right? And I'm sure you have a website
54:50
as well. Yes, So homecomingmatcha.com.
54:55
Homecomingmatcha.com We'll put it in the the link.
54:59
Thanks friends. Awesome.
55:00
All right. If you enjoyed this podcast,
55:03
please consider sharing it with friend and or giving us a rating
55:06
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55:09
on the next one. Thanks.
55:10
See you in the future.