Latest / The Burros of Berea Podcast / Episode 120- Dr. Sam Frost Friday- To Infinity and Beyond

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Episode 120- Dr. Sam Frost Friday- To Infinity and Beyond · The Burros of Berea Podcast

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The Burroughs of Berea is a conversational podcast. We study the Bible and we talk about it.
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Not all of us are of the same faith and one of us doesn't actually have a faith.
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And that's wonderful. We all love one another and we're going to continue to talk about these things.
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The things we believe in and the things we believe about what we read in the Bible.
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Not all of these are necessarily true. Some of it is opinion and speculation. Thank you for listening and speculating with us.
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There you go. That was good. Yes.
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Oms, oms, oms.
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You are listening to the Burroughs of Berea.
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You are listening to Dr. Sam Frost Friday.
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Well, welcome back to the Burroughs of Berea. I'm Rick Welch and to my left is Big Dada Carter.
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Oh, yeah.
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Behind the glass, Rocket May and Andy Bishop.
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To my right, Sarita the Edge.
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Hi.
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By now, you've heard the testimony of Dr. Sam Frost. We have him back in the studio for our special Dr. Sam Frost Fridays.
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It's going to be releasing depending on how many hours we do this. This could be over the next eight weeks. Who knows?
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I got a ball game to get to.
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Probably every other, toggle it with the Wednesdays or something.
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Exactly. Yeah. Dr. Frost, thanks for being in the studio with us again.
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Thank you for having me again.
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Absolutely.
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You didn't forget to pick him up.
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I didn't. One thing that we have discovered, we both love Cracker Barrel.
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Yes.
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That is a great place to eat.
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Breckin' good in there every day though.
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No. It's really interesting.
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Was your metabolism catch up with you you were talking about yesterday?
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Well, I don't know.
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The stomach might catch up with him.
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Yeah, mine.
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I'm trying to figure out, I'm trying to put on weight for the winter as we go into the summer.
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I was like, but it's spring.
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Well, you know.
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You're training early.
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That's exactly it. He's getting an early start.
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Yeah.
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The bigger I get, the colder I get.
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They always say it's the opposite, but I'm freezing to death.
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I guess it's because my skin is enlarged over my heart or over my enlarged heart.
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I don't know, whichever one.
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First job I had, no, not first job, I had second job.
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Maybe I had when I moved to North Carolina was Cracker Barrel.
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I worked there for like a year.
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It's terrible.
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Awful job.
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I'm like, thankless tips are terrible.
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Yeah.
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And I tell you what, good place to buy drugs.
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Really?
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Absolutely. Anything weight-stimers though.
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It's not because it's Cracker Barrel.
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It's because they're weight-staff and line cooks.
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That's where drugs come from.
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It's in the dictionary. I've seen that.
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When my mom got sick, she was,
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when North Carolina was cracking down on giving pain meds, and she had cancer.
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It's ridiculous right now.
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She's like, doctor, she's dying.
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Can she have some drugs to make her feel better?
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And I looked at her one day, I said, mom,
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I'll go buy you some.
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We're going to get you to a Cracker Barrel.
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She goes, how do you know how to buy that?
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I was like, listen, I've waited tables for 15 years.
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I can go like that, and within an hour, I'll have you something.
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Gonna get you a big old bag of weed.
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Yeah.
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She refused to let me do that.
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Put the crack in Cracker Barrel.
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Yeah.
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It is ridiculous though.
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I understand the impulse, but it is ridiculous how far in the other direction
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they've gone with that stuff, because people with legitimate need.
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Now, she had cancer all throughout her body, and they would not give her any drugs.
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They had no accident, and they will look at you like you're a crack cat.
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Until we called hospice, and then hospice would give her anything she wanted.
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But they didn't want to call hospice.
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That's brutal. That's brutal.
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Anyway, well, after we finished that testimony, we sort of got to the end of this.
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And so today, Dr. Frost, I want to understand,
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much like your book, While at Full Preterism,
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I want to hear that how you, the steps that you took as you began to leave
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and exit Full Preterism, and then also, obviously, the theology behind it,
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and what changed in your mind, because you were such an ardent supporter
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and one of the leaders of the movement for almost a decade, I would say.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, so this changed.
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So that's what I wanted to know.
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I want to hear from that.
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I've heard a part of it, like where you got to John chapter six,
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and something really stuck out at you.
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Can we start there?
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Yeah.
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And I was, and there are many of the Full Preterists today trying to devalue
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my contribution or whatever to the movement as a whole from 2001 to 2010 when I left.
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So, but no, I was in it.
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You mentioned Beyond Creation Science.
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So I'm footnoted in that book, credited.
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Tim Martin, a lot of stuff that's in that book.
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We're going to try to have him on the show eventually.
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I haven't got through all of his book yet.
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I don't even know who that is.
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He's from Montana, where they had the tornado in the mountains.
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Is that a real place?
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Montana.
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The one I posted?
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Yeah.
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That's Montana.
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I didn't realize.
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Oh, I don't know.
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That's where he lives.
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I'm just saying, sorry to interrupt, but Tim Martin, he's sent us Beyond Creation Science,
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his book, and I've started reading it.
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I haven't finished it yet, but we are going to have him on the show.
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Do.
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Hopefully.
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You know, a lot of Don Preston's book, and then Don is still published as one of my books.
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So Alan Bondar, I mean, all of these guys, Michael Miano's first book I wrote a blurb
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for, so they were all wanting me to write forwards and stuff to their book.
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Bondar's book I wrote a forward to.
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So I was very involved, very, very, my fingers were all in the pies, so to speak, into the
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movement.
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So I knew it backwards and forward, and I can sound just like one of them convinced and
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convince you.
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If you didn't know any better, I could convince, you know, go.
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Through all of their arguments and what it is that they used, and they certainly, it's
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certainly convinced me, but you have to read everything.
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So you can't just stay in a kind of a framework like that.
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You have to constantly challenge your own beliefs.
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And as I said last night, you know, look for, look for holes and what's only going to tighten
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or strengthen your belief or you've found a hole and it needs to be, you know, sewn up
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the one that I found couldn't be sewn up without an appeal to absurdity for me was argument
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of infinity.
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So full predators believe that history as we know it now.
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So I use the phrase history as we know it will go on for infinity.
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This what we have around us will never end because of his kingdom, there shall be no
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end.
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Does that mean I don't have to paint?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, no, you'll have to, well, you'll have to paint, but eventually it'll have to be painted
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again, you know, for, for infinity.
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Well, then I still need to paint.
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But you're not going to.
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Yeah, you still have to paint.
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And all of the evil that goes along in with history as we know it remains forever.
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So it never goes away.
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It's never ultimately in the traditional view, it's ultimately finally dealt with and removed.
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And at one time you held to that belief.
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That was a hard one.
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Or you forced yourself to believe it.
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Yeah, you kind of go along with some things you sweep under the rug because of what you
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think are the other major arguments that trump everything.
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So then you just sweep the other things under the rug.
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Every view does this.
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Yeah.
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Every view.
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Every view has got weaknesses and strengths.
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So problem areas and stuff.
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And then there's a, can you give like the verse or maybe just like a Cliff Notes version of the verse that you're talking about that infers that.
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The kingdom with no end.
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Yeah.
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The kingdom with no end.
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Yeah.
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Isaiah 6 of his kingdom there shall be no end.
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Of the increase of his kingdom there shall be no end.
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Yeah.
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Of the increase of his kingdom.
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So the increase is for infinity.
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That's how they interpret it.
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Even though Hebrew has no word for infinity.
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Is there anything like right adjacent to that that's kind of pertinent or helpful with that?
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Because that's pretty vague for me.
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Not really.
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It's, it only takes,
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It only takes,
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It stands like that.
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Truthfully told in every view, it only takes one verse to create an entire theory from.
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Sure.
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So it is a vague verse that an entire theory is built upon, right?
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Yeah.
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I'm sure there are words.
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And it really doesn't mean that because the increase in Hebrew is a noun.
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So the increase is like in addition to your studio here, there won't be any end to it.
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Once you add it, it's not, it's added.
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It's not going to be there.
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It's not of the increasing.
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There shall be no end.
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It's the increase that's added to the kingdom.
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There won't be any end to that.
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So it's not referring to infinity at all.
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Hebrew doesn't have a word for infinity.
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There's no concept going on.
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That's Greek.
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You know, there's nothing going on with, with any of that.
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So the idea that history just continues for infinity as it now is with everything that
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goes along with it, which runs into the problem of God knows all his people from beginning
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to end and those written in the Lamb's book of life or from beginning to end to which
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you could add one more.
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So God knows all of his people to which you could add one more and God knows all of it.
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What to which you can add one more to God for infinity.
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So he doesn't really know all of his people to which you could add one more.
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Okay.
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Now he knows all that's kind of, I mean, that's, but even that for me is a weak argument.
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To which you could add one more.
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You're talking about an infinite God.
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He's not infinite.
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He's not.
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So when we went back and began to go into what infinite means to the Greeks and how the
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early church, namely Augustine, treated that as that God is eternal, not infinite.
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Okay.
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God's not ever expanding.
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Right.
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He learns nothing.
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Right.
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You can't add anything to it.
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Right.
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But it is, that is the definition of infinity.
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As you can always add one more.
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That's our American, Americanized definition.
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No, no, okay.
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So let's say this.
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So everything that is happening is we are living and breathing in all within the construct
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of who God is.
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Right.
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Everything's happening within it.
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Right.
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It's very cyclical.
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It's very, it never, it's never ending.
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He's, because he's eternal.
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He's eternal.
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Right.
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Not infinite.
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Infinite.
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Infinite is a poor word used.
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There's twice in the King James and it's not the meaning of the Hebrew that they translate,
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but they were using that word infinite.
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So in our 25 page paper that we came out with, you know, technical and all of this, basically
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infinity, I paid us is, it's unbounded.
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It's always, always increasing, always adding and it never, well, that's not the definition
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of God.
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God is contained, self-contained trinity.
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So it's, yeah, it's like a bit of a definitions thing where infinite is not all-encompassing.
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Infinite is everything.
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Ever expanding.
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It's chaos.
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Well, I think chaos is a stretch, but ever, the concept that there can always be, and
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one, there can always be more in there.
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Yeah.
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There can always be more.
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I guess that's interesting when you look at it because it's not that there always is
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more or should be more, but there could always be more.
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There is always eternally room to add.
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That's very philosophical, Andy.
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You know, it's very, very good.
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I like that.
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I like that.
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I've never heard the distinction like that.
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So everlasting life is within the, I'm only reading from the, again, from Augustine and
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the Greek philosophers, which I spend a great deal of amount of time in.
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So for them, it was an ever increasing or an ever adding too.
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So it is chaotic.
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That's the Greeks hated it because you couldn't, you couldn't formulate anything with
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out it being expanded upon.
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So if we talk about numbers, so think of the biggest number that you could think of, to
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which you could add one more.
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12.
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So you never really come to a, you never really come to an end of it, right?
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Google was the biggest number.
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Do you remember that?
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It was a Google.
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I mean, they spelled it incorrectly, but this was better.
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Correct.
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So now it's a search engine, which you can never have an into because there's always
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increasing to it.
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That's infinite.
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It's infinite.
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You never have a full knowledge of anything.
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There is no anything.
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So in, in like a left null, which is the symbol for infinity, that set theory, there is no
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all for infinity.
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So God cannot know all.
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Infinity has no all.
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That would, that would be a contained set.
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All of the set unit.
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So in mathematics, even you, they do these things symbolically.
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So in mathematics, there's, we have to have a limit to be able to order and think, but
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in philosophy, which is very real, how far does space go?
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I mean, we don't, we don't know.
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We don't know.
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Very mind numbing.
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In fact, the James T web is blowing the minds of the astrophysicists of today.
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It's breaking all of the laws.
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They're going to have to rewrite the textbooks.
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Of course.
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It depends on if you, who you talk to.
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It's the nature of science, which is always falsified that science is always science loves
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when it breaks its own rule.
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That's the whole point of it is to continue to, to go out.
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There was an ever increasing amount of people who are saying that doesn't work with theology
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when you have a God or he says he's beginning in the end.
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There there is an ever increasing number of people and it's becoming actually very popular
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again, which I just don't with the web.
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The, the, the James web thing.
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I mean, how, how are you, but the, the earth is flat.
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It's a dome.
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It's a, that whole, right?
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It's becoming like, I know like a refresh thing.
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I said, new, there's a new pretty safe.
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I had never known anybody until about six or seven months ago.
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And this lady started that I have been friends with for years and she's now unfriended me
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because I kept pushing back on her.
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She has, she has blocked me, which is fine.
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And she says, yes.
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And she says I'm a heretic because I sit in this room with people who believe differently
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than myself.
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And so I've been called a heretic by her and she's unfriended me, but I'm not, I'm not
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losing sleep over it.
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But all that to say is she, and there's an ever increasing, I'm the bloody tick.
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Okay.
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You're the hair.
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I'm the tick.
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Okay.
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So I got it now.
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And that's becoming, how do you, with, with this James, the web telescope, how, how can
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people believe that?
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They believe that we're making this up, that it's all staged.
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It's whatever.
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And I'm like, we just proved that science back with Galileo.
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It's easily democracy.
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Yeah.
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But the Bible says it's the four corners of the earth.
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And I'm like, that's called poetry, dude.
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The, the other myth is that Columbus believed that the earth was flatter, that the great,
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the Greeks believed in an orb.
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You could go back and read.
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Actually, if you read Columbus's writings, he did not believe it was flat.
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No one did.
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No one did.
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It was a few pockets of people that in school, I feel like I was told that they believed.
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My history teacher did not teach that.
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My history teacher taught me that Columbus believed that earth was round, despite what
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he was taught in school.
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The school system I came from, it's amazing.
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They taught anything.
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And then I'm taught.
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And then I taught my kids that way because I home schooled.
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I've heard this.
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And then I've heard Columbus was going to fall off the end of the earth.
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No.
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He read his diaries.
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I read, they didn't believe that he's, he wouldn't be able to navigate with the stars
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and the plumb and the way that he did it.
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Yeah.
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A lot of things break real fast if the earth is flat.
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A lot of things break.
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Well, it's funny because she used this meme where she had like three different pieces
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of surveying equipment.
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My husband's a land surveyor and he said, if I have to go out and survey your property,
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I have to use the curvature of the earth to do it.
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And he's like.
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Pilots have to figure that out.
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I've been on a plane.
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So I've seen, they got to figure that out.
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I've seen the curvature.
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But whatever.
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That's not why we're here.
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But it is a theory.
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Well, what were you saying?
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It comes back to infinity.
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How do you feel about those that are insistent that at least they should be included in the
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conversation of, of the majority that believe in a.
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Here we go.
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Or worse.
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This is a fascinating hand.
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And you should accept us.
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He's side noting for full crotorism is what he's doing.
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Just accept us as legitimate that the earth may possibly be flat and not to treat us or
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will ostracize us or anything.
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We're argument though.
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You should bring us all in the bot.
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No, the Bible says that I am to love.
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I'm to love people.
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I love her.
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Flat earthers.
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I love her.
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And if she needed, like you said, if her car went into the ditch, I would help pull her
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out.
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That's right.
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However, I will not.
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I will not entertain that theory.
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Right.
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That's where I stand.
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Even, even though like I have no particular passionate and no dog in the, the Preterist
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fight because obvious reasons.
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I think it's also unfair is from what I can tell, it's unfair to lump Preterism in with
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flat earth or something that is demonstrably and like laughably false.
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I'm not sure if it's in that category.
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It just seems like a, like a, what's a bad comparison?
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What is it?
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A straw man?
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I mean, to the Orthodox.
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Like I understand what you're saying.
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I just think comparing it to flat earthers is not, it's not fair.
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From our perspective, when you have every single major creed from the second century
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onward, all four quarters of the earth, billions of souls, every statement, Coptic, Eastern,
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Roman Catholic, Arabic, it doesn't make any difference.
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They all state and say the same things over and over again.
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So it's not just the consensus.
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It's the overwhelming.
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But it's, unfortunately for me, here comes a little group of flatter and they say, Oh
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no, you're all wrong.
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It is the same thing because the institutions that Christianity has built have been founded
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upon.
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So even the Reformation is based upon the Apostles Creed.
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The smaller catechism is chapterized by Calvin's Institute of the Christian religion is built
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upon the Apostles Creed.
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So they never moved away from that boundary of framework.
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That boundary and framework has defined what Christendom and historic Christianity is.
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You can go to the Encyclopedia Britannica and they're going to go to the Nicene Creed.
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So you can go anywhere you want to.
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And all of a sudden a group of people think that they know more than all of that and they
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want to be considered as legitimate consideration.
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I want to back up because my hand says no.
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You're fully into things that are just above my head, unfortunately.
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So let's, yeah, I mean, it's fine.
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I have no, but yeah, I'm just not, I just don't know enough to have that discussion
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meaningfully.
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So I think let's back up and maybe get a little ground here because that's probably where
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we're going with the.
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Well, he was in infinity.
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Do you have something to say before you get back to the infinity?
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Well, that argument, I understand.
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And I was watching your debate with Turbaville, Pastor Turbaville.
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No, Stacey Turbaville.
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Yeah.
19:20
On that, Apologetic Dogs.
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Jeremiah Nortie.
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I didn't, I don't really think about that.
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But I just, YouTube, a debate that you did.
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And I don't think that what you just said is your strongest argument.
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Okay.
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And you have other arguments that you made in that particular, and I'm only through
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the second rebuttal.
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So like it's a two and a half hour debate.
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Like I got things to do.
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Okay.
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But I was trying to prep for today because, you know, I only knew you from your social
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media posts, which can get quite divisive.
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And I've actually, from the one you made last night, I've gotten several texts about it
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overnight and this morning I was driving and whatever, but you're a stronger art, well,
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maybe not stronger intellectually, but from someone who is not a Preterist, a stronger
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argument would be the one you made about the loving God.
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If that's your idea of a loving God, it's not a God I want to serve.
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That was particularly, for me, it was a pretty strong argument.
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You're removing evil and removing, yeah.
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Because there is still evil present and there is still demonic.
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Very much so.
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I mean, I'm not Catholic, but I follow a couple of guys who perform exorcisms like the most
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well-known exorcists in the world.
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There's evil present.
20:45
There are demons present that they encounter.
20:50
And so if that is the case that we're fully in the kingdom, like we're fully in the kingdom
20:58
of God, then why is evil still present?
21:01
That is probably a stronger argument as far as not being so far over somebody's head who's
21:06
not a believer.
21:07
Yeah, who's not.
21:08
Who's not.
21:09
Because I'm not a Calvinist.
21:10
So I'm in a really unique position here.
21:13
I'm not a Calvinist and not a Preterist.
21:15
So when I was getting text messages this morning from a Calvinist who was trying to use your
21:23
arguments against you, I was like...
21:27
It gets involved.
21:28
It does get involved.
21:29
Like, are you a Calvinist?
21:31
Are three-point Calvinists?
21:32
And then you call it...
21:33
Was that Josh Sexton or Calder?
21:34
No, it's 4.5 point.
21:35
Yeah.
21:36
2.3.
21:37
2.3.
21:38
I'm 2.3.
21:39
I think I'm 2.5.
21:40
So yes, I am.
21:42
Yeah, I'm a Calvinist.
21:44
But I'm also...
21:45
I don't like the name Calvinist.
21:46
I don't either, just like I don't like the name Preterist.
21:49
Calvin doesn't like the name.
21:50
He wouldn't like them.
21:51
The people running around saying I'm a Calvinist.
21:53
Oh, no, he probably...
21:54
That'd be the exact opposite of what he would want.
21:55
Yeah, I would agree with that.
21:57
Are you a Calvinist?
21:59
Rick Carter, I'm pointing at Rick's just for people who are listening.
22:03
I don't know.
22:04
Probably.
22:05
Uncertain.
22:06
Well, but it's...
22:08
It's hard to escape the sovereignty of God.
22:11
But also, you know, well, they'll take Calvinism, so election, the idea of election.
22:18
That has in the Westminster Confession of Faith, it's defined as such, and it's right on the
22:23
money with the Greek meaning of the term.
22:25
So it's, God knows the number of those whom He has elected which can neither be increased
22:31
nor diminished.
22:32
That's the exact opposite meaning of infinity, which can be increased for infinity.
22:38
So He doesn't know all.
22:39
So we're back to my thinking.
22:40
Two is you get out one more.
22:41
Yeah.
22:42
Two is you get out one more.
22:43
Again.
22:44
Two is you get out one more.
22:45
Yeah, you're saying...
22:46
So there's no all.
22:48
The word that you're playing with me on infinity is meaningless to me.
22:51
I'm talking about eternal.
22:53
God is eternal.
22:54
Right.
22:55
I'm gonna agree with, I'll agree with you on that.
22:57
That number none of us know but God.
22:59
Only God knows the number.
23:01
Am I wrong?
23:04
To which you get out one more.
23:06
Only God knows the number.
23:07
The number of elect?
23:08
Is that what you're saying?
23:09
You can't know the number of what?
23:10
You can't know an infinite number.
23:11
Do you know what the elect is?
23:12
No.
23:13
Okay.
23:14
So...
23:15
I thought I just said that I wasn't, I'm not talking about infinity anymore.
23:17
I'm talking about eternal.
23:19
The definition you just gave.
23:20
Right.
23:21
If that's the case and He knows the number, then there is...
23:24
It is a fixed or a finite number of which can either be increased nor diminished.
23:29
Right.
23:30
So if that's the case, then you can't have an infinite increase of history or procreation
23:36
of which God is always saving for infinity.
23:39
He's always bringing more souls for infinity.
23:43
So it never ends.
23:44
Okay, wait.
23:45
Hold on.
23:46
I would like to hear this explanation.
23:47
Because of the Calvinist belief or whatever you call it, that there are a predetermined
23:55
amount of souls that God has chosen to save.
23:58
That is what we're calling the elect.
24:00
They have been elected.
24:01
It's chosen, the world is chosen.
24:05
Chosen to be a follower and they can't deny that calling.
24:11
So that's what they will...
24:14
That's the belief there.
24:16
So to kind of go...
24:18
I could see where you didn't know what that word elect meant.
24:21
So I just want it for listeners who may not know what that means.
24:25
That's what it means.
24:26
Yeah.
24:27
And down through history, there have been debates, of course, in regard to Calvinism
24:30
and Arminianism.
24:31
I think that Jacobius Arminius...
24:33
Who would agree with me, by the way?
24:35
Who?
24:36
Arminius would.
24:37
Would agree with you on what?
24:38
The number is finite.
24:41
Whom are the elect or the saved?
24:42
The number is finite.
24:44
The finite number.
24:45
So if you are...
24:46
You're very strict on that.
24:48
If I'm hearing what you say, both of you, and probably Rick Carter as well, because
24:55
I'm just trying to stay neutral here, even though I have a particular belief.
24:59
You believe history has an end, correct?
25:02
There will be an end to history as we know it.
25:06
You believe history has no end.
25:07
Is that correct?
25:08
That's correct.
25:09
Okay.
25:10
Also, Rick Carter, you believe history has no end?
25:12
Correct.
25:13
Okay.
25:14
So, indeed, you have a particular thought on that?
25:16
Will the world explode and have an end?
25:18
I mean, sure, the world will end.
25:20
I don't know if history ends.
25:22
I don't know.
25:23
What do they call it?
25:25
The heat death of the universe, I think.
25:27
Heat death five billion years from now, yeah.
25:30
Heat death?
25:31
That's a new one for me.
25:32
That's just...
25:33
The sun's gonna explode?
25:34
No, things are expanding.
25:36
The whole universe is expanding.
25:37
Eventually, everything will be so far apart that it will just...
25:40
Correct.
25:41
...evade, will just freeze and die.
25:42
Correct.
25:43
That would be the end of all life.
25:46
Human life?
25:47
But is that the end of the universe?
25:49
Kind of no.
25:50
It's just the end of a lot of others.
25:52
Well, history is just a telling the story of mankind.
25:53
That's why I use the definition history as we know it, as we now know it.
25:57
So that will not ever end.
25:59
So, child molestation will be for infinity.
26:02
It'll never end.
26:03
Never.
26:04
Evil will be forever.
26:06
That to me is your strongest argument.
26:08
God has pleased the child molestation will last for infinity.
26:11
That is...
26:12
Yeah.
26:13
That's the logical outcome.
26:14
It's not a terrible argument.
26:16
I don't understand the legs of it, but the argument itself is fine.
26:19
Yep.
26:20
That's the...in your debate thus far, when I had looked at it, that's your strongest
26:24
point.
26:25
As a person who was abused as a child, it's a horrible thing.
26:29
Okay.
26:30
And to think that that...
26:31
Yeah, you'll get over it.
26:32
But the thought that it's gonna go on forever, the Lord is gonna continue to allow that...
26:35
I want retribution for that.
26:37
And there will be in the end retribution for everything.
26:40
Everything will be made new and everything will be rectified fully and entirely.
26:46
The full preterist has no final rectification for anything.
26:50
I will say that...
26:51
Guys.
26:52
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but guys, listen.
26:55
God put the knowledge of good and evil on this planet.
26:58
Did He not?
27:00
Temporarily.
27:01
He put it on here.
27:02
Well, we didn't know.
27:04
He put it here.
27:05
But He put it here.
27:06
But you...
27:07
Which came from His eternity, am I wrong?
27:10
In His mind of what good and evil is.
27:13
Did He know what it would do?
27:14
But it wasn't the accident.
27:15
But did God know what it would do?
27:17
Temporarily.
27:18
Well, you say temporarily.
27:19
I understand what you mean.
27:21
So it...
27:22
You mean that it has a purpose.
27:23
If I say temporarily, oh, there's the word teleology and purpose.
27:27
So what is the purpose of working all things to the good for those who love Christ Jesus?
27:31
Well, you don't have one.
27:32
It's infinite.
27:33
It goes on.
27:34
There is no...
27:35
It's dying and going to heaven.
27:37
That's not going to work.
27:38
Hey, did you hear that?
27:39
Because God also...
27:40
He just did me.
27:41
He just did me.
27:42
He went and went on to heaven.
27:43
That's what happened.
27:44
Hey, did He sound it like you?
27:45
God also made this thing called earth.
27:48
Yeah.
27:49
Heaven and earth.
27:50
Jesus reconciled and this is the summation of all things in heaven and earth so that
27:54
He might bring all things together and summation to Him, for Him, by Him in heaven and on earth.
28:01
Yes.
28:02
He keeps forgetting about the earth part.
28:03
He made heaven and earth.
28:05
Yep.
28:06
And He will be done by kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.
28:09
Correct.
28:10
This is incarnation.
28:11
Why did He become flesh?
28:12
Well, He's uniting.
28:14
It's both important and if just one does, the spirit leaves us hanging out here, then
28:20
He's not redeemed all things and I don't want anything to do with Him.
28:24
He's weak.
28:25
Can you get rid of evil in your own creation?
28:29
You can't.
28:31
Then your Bible is no good even for a bottom of a bird cage.
28:35
I don't want anything to do with it.
28:37
When you talk about purpose, the same...
28:38
Because the things that hurt us, the things that hurt us are things that happen here.
28:44
Sure.
28:45
One of the biggest things that I hated as an atheist before I became a believer was that
28:49
I, you've heard this argument a million times.
28:52
If He's a loving God, then dot, dot, dot.
28:55
If He's a loving God, then why so much pain?
28:56
Why so much suffering?
28:57
Why all this?
28:58
Why?
28:59
Why, why, why, why?
29:00
If it has a temporary function too.
29:01
Why did you make it?
29:02
Knowing that man would fall so that you would send your second Adam in order to...
29:05
That was the argument that was taught to me from a child.
29:08
Like why?
29:09
It's a good argument.
29:10
It is a good argument, but that's...
29:12
I think that also drives home the point which is purpose and choice, which belongs to God.
29:17
That's where it starts.
29:19
It starts there, but if He never ends it, if He never consummates, then He started something
29:25
that He can't end.
29:27
Let's see that by the very nature of the word consume, the consummation of things, right?
29:33
So if you have an everlasting fire, everlasting, then that means that that fire is always contained
29:41
wherever God is.
29:44
It's always contained, but it is always existing.
29:46
Correct?
29:47
So what you're saying or what you're trying to argue for is that sin will never have an
29:54
end.
29:55
Sin is covered by Jesus Christ.
29:58
That is the end of the good of evil tree, the good of evil tree.
30:01
Don't get too upset about evil on the earth then.
30:04
Of course you can be upset about it.
30:06
Why?
30:07
What do you mean?
30:08
It doesn't mean anything really.
30:09
It does mean something.
30:10
It's not...
30:11
It doesn't serve any purpose.
30:12
Christ died so that we could be forgiven of it?
30:16
I'm not...
30:17
I still sin.
30:18
Yes.
30:19
I thought He took it away from me.
30:20
He did.
30:21
Why do I still sin?
30:23
Because He covers it for you.
30:25
So I can go ahead and...
30:26
Oh, great.
30:27
What?
30:28
I can go out and sin then.
30:29
That's not what Paul says.
30:31
Why not?
30:32
Paul says that wherever sin is, the grace abounds all the more, but should you do?
30:36
Then you're arguing with Paul, not me.
30:38
No, am I wrong?
30:41
In my view, my sin is temporary and it works towards a goal of good in which I will be a
30:48
new creature raised immortal, consummate.
30:52
In your view, this is never consummated.
30:56
It rots in the ground.
30:57
It has no meaning or purpose to it.
31:00
It's never raised from the dead.
31:02
It's meaning in purpose is within what God made it for.
31:05
That's the meaning.
31:06
To rot into the ground.
31:07
The body.
31:08
Yeah, to rot.
31:09
To decay.
31:10
And the Son of God never saw decay.
31:14
The Son of God never saw decay.
31:16
So this gets to the other quest, because all these things lead to one thing.
31:21
They all connect together.
31:23
So you bring up the resurrection Jesus, who is obviously bodily raised from the dead,
31:27
which why God raised him bodily from the dead.
31:29
I have no idea because he just, according to Don Preston and Mike Sullivan and Dave
31:34
Curtis and all the rest of them, Jesus shed his body upon the ascension.
31:39
Because if you have a body going and ascending into heaven glorified and immortal, then that
31:44
tells me that God can glorify a human body and make it immortal, which is the definition
31:51
of what resurrection glorification is for him.
31:54
And if it is for him, then it also is for us that are in Christ.
31:58
But does he always have to glorify a body for it to be with him?
32:03
Well, I'm, he's glorified Jesus Christ.
32:05
We did.
32:06
Right.
32:07
Right.
32:08
But does he always have to?
32:09
He's the first fruit of the harvest.
32:11
But does he always have to glorify the body to be with him?
32:13
So if you plan, if you harvest an apple, or if you get a first fruit of it.
32:17
I get it, but you're not answering my question.
32:18
If you get an apple in your first fruit, what are you going to get in the harvest?
32:21
That still doesn't answer the point.
32:23
Does he have to?
32:24
If his body is glorified and we are to be made in his image and like him and conform to
32:29
his image, which is the ultimate goal.
32:31
But does he, does God always have to glorify?
32:34
Then he has failed if he does not glorify this body.
32:37
You didn't answer a question.
32:38
I think that sort of was a yes.
32:40
Yes.
32:41
That was, that was a.
32:42
God is a failure.
32:43
Yeah.
32:44
If he doesn't glorify this body.
32:45
So, so by extension.
32:46
And he doesn't exist by the way.
32:47
Not a God, not a God at all.
32:49
Nothing I want anything to do with.
32:51
He never said anything about glorifying Enoch when he took him.
32:54
He didn't glorify Enoch.
32:55
I could know.
32:56
No, where does it say glorified?
32:57
Exactly.
32:58
Does he have to glorify a body to be with him?
33:03
Enoch is not in a body with God.
33:05
He didn't take his body with him.
33:06
He didn't died.
33:08
Hebrews 11 all the after he mentions all these and then he says all these died not having
33:14
received that which was promised to them.
33:16
That would all these would go back.
33:18
All right.
33:19
So that would be Enoch and Elijah both.
33:21
They both died.
33:22
Well, then that's a contradiction, right?
33:24
No.
33:25
Said because of Genesis said Enoch did not die.
33:27
God took him.
33:28
No, it says that he walked with the Lord and God took him.
33:30
Yes.
33:31
It did not die.
33:32
I thought it says that and he was no more.
33:34
I think that's all.
33:35
There was no more.
33:36
And he was.
33:37
Doesn't say anything about his body.
33:38
What happened to his body didn't say anything like that.
33:40
But we know if he was raised and glorified and all of the rest of it, then he beat Jesus
33:44
to it.
33:45
Jesus didn't need to be the first.
33:47
So Jesus was already.
33:48
I mean, that's pretty Christ.
33:49
He's already.
33:50
Well, understand that.
33:51
Jesus is the first.
33:53
I'm not degrading the fact that what he did for Christ was absolutely special and that
33:59
he glorified him above everybody else, right?
34:02
Because he made him lower for a short period of time and then he made him more than everything
34:06
else.
34:07
That was a part of glorifying him.
34:08
But for Enoch and Elijah, he did not glorify their bodies to be with him.
34:13
He doesn't know.
34:14
We die in our spirits were with the Lord in heaven as a spirit.
34:18
Yeah.
34:19
With the Lord in heaven.
34:20
But my question was.
34:21
Our bodies are in the ground.
34:22
He has to glorify.
34:23
It's about to be raised from the dead.
34:25
Your body has to be glorified and Enoch was not raised from the dead.
34:29
There's no, there isn't any, there's nothing that says that he was raised from the dead.
34:33
So Jesus is the firstborn who raised human being immortal from the dead.
34:38
There nobody.
34:40
That's, see, that's, that's actually the problem because people can die and believe in God
34:45
and God forgives their sins and they love him and Abraham loves and he's a friend and
34:49
God's talking to him and they're talking to him.
34:51
They're having direct communication.
34:53
His spirit is in them.
34:54
Abraham is regenerated.
34:55
He believes in the Lord.
34:56
He believes in what God says and all the rest of it.
34:58
He dies.
34:59
His spirit goes to heaven.
35:00
But God promised Abraham land forever.
35:02
Right.
35:03
He told him specifically, I will give you singular this land forever for eternity.
35:08
When is he going to get that?
35:11
He didn't.
35:12
He didn't.
35:13
Not to this day.
35:14
He hasn't.
35:15
But his seed got it.
35:16
It's to him and his seed, but specifically to him singular, to him, to you, Abraham.
35:23
He's speaking directly to him and then he says, and your seed.
35:27
So when is Abraham himself going to get the land that God promised?
35:31
Well, Paul sees this in Romans 4 13 where it is not through the law that the heirs of
35:39
the promise to inherit the whole world.
35:42
Where does Paul make that jump that Abraham is going to inherit the whole world?
35:46
Well, he's looking at the sun, the moon, the stars, wherever your feet step that I will
35:51
give to you forever.
35:53
And Abraham's looking at it and thinking I will die.
35:56
There's no way and nations are coming out of me in my lifetime, but God said it.
36:00
I believe it.
36:01
God will have to raise the dead.
36:03
He would have to recreate all of this for eternity if he's going to give this to me
36:07
for eternity.
36:09
I'm looking for a better.
36:12
And Abraham died and did not receive that which God promised to him, but God promised
36:17
to him and God will answer that promise.
36:19
This becomes the hope of resurrection and new life and eternity.
36:23
When God is going to rectify and make all things right.
36:25
It's already his.
36:26
If I give it to you, it's already yours.
36:28
It's already in Abraham believed that he was already a father of many nations, even though
36:34
he didn't even have a son.
36:35
Yeah, it kind of jumps outside of the physical spiritual discussion really.
36:38
It's more of a promising land.
36:41
It's a physical thing that he's saying.
36:43
What's the conversation we have about Christ?
36:46
He was already the king, but he didn't have the possession of it yet.
36:51
Yeah, like we were talking, this wasn't on the podcast.
36:53
This was on a conversation this morning.
36:54
We were talking about how Christ was the king.
36:57
The king was riding in on a donkey when he came into the city.
37:01
But the coronation or the glorification when he sits at the right hand of the father hadn't
37:06
taken place.
37:07
So that would have been the same concept with Abraham.
37:08
He already owned the land.
37:09
It was his.
37:10
He wasn't there yet.
37:11
Yeah.
37:12
And then he will.
37:13
And it's to be given back to him.
37:15
And I think that that's the part about the Bible and philosophy and everything else that's
37:20
the most difficult thing for me is that not everyone has the ability like you do to be
37:27
able to sit down and fully study and have the time or the, even the brain to be able
37:32
to, to get, no, seriously, to be able to do that.
37:35
Let's just be honest.
37:36
Not everybody has your brain and not everybody can do what you do.
37:39
And so the, the relationship that, that the common man might have with a person, if they
37:45
see something in the scripture and they begin to believe it, then, you know, like you said
37:51
this morning, do you mind to read his Facebook post?
37:54
Would you grab that and read that?
37:55
Sure.
37:56
I mean, this is all part of it.
37:57
You know, your definition of affinity, I think is correct.
38:00
As far as eternal, I would agree with that.
38:02
I have no problem with that.
38:03
I think that it's, you know, and I understand what you're saying in regard to the full consummation
38:09
of things to be able to, you know, what is Christ presenting to the Father exactly if
38:14
it all ends in 8070.
38:15
That's what you're saying.
38:16
Like, okay, this is all over spiritualized.
38:20
I imagine is what you're, what you were seeing, right?
38:22
Oh, entirely so.
38:23
And that's what, when you got to the John six and that jumped out at you and you went
38:28
to your professor and was like, Hey, you know, what is this?
38:30
I wanted to get into that.
38:31
That was the whole, that was my first question.
38:33
We never got there.
38:34
We'll get there.
38:35
Yeah.
38:36
Okay.
38:37
So there's, you've had quite a bit posted on your Facebook page this morning.
38:40
Jeremiah, Jeremiah Nortie just posted on your Facebook page.
38:43
He's a busy boy.
38:44
That's funny.
38:45
You just shouted out, but he can't hear us right now.
38:47
But, um, okay.
38:48
So it says, let me scroll down.
38:50
Oh gosh, okay.
38:53
All right.
38:55
So this was said last night has had 137 comments.
38:59
So, um, if I were to embrace full preterists as brothers or sisters in Christ with total
39:06
allowance and acknowledging their quote unquote version of the Bible, I simply quote unquote,
39:11
another view to be quote unquote tolerated.
39:14
Then I would say I have no beef with universalists.
39:17
Yeah.
39:18
Palagianists, Unitarians, liberals, et cetera, dispensationalists, Seventh Day Adventists,
39:25
et cetera, are all to be tolerated without any real rebuke.
39:28
And with this, I would have to also say quote the creeds and quote, don't matter at this
39:32
point other than simply a relic of history of what some used to believe.
39:39
Yeah.
39:40
Hmm.
39:41
Take them or leave them.
39:42
How could that be true for dispensationalists?
39:44
Oh, they love Jesus.
39:46
No, no, no, no, no, no.
39:48
Well, so do full preterists.
39:51
So do Unitarians.
39:52
I've got, I've got three Unitarian friends that would be really shut off from back.
39:56
I'll really set in that as that about having a beef.
39:57
You have a beef.
39:59
That's all you really said in that is that you just have a beef with them.
40:02
I wouldn't, I wouldn't have a beef if I accepted full preterism as just another harmless view.
40:09
And they don't accept you as, and so they have a beef with you.
40:11
Then I wouldn't have a beef with Unitarians or universalists.
40:14
Well, see that's where we different.
40:15
See, I don't have a problem with Sam Frost's view.
40:18
No, no, no.
40:19
Because the reason why I don't is because I don't know all things.
40:23
I am still studying this much like everyone else.
40:26
But when I began to see the fulfillment of prophecy, it took me into a whole new world
40:30
in my mind, which it did you too.
40:33
And that is, that is an exercise that is, I think it's worthwhile as an exercise to
40:39
study it out, to show yourself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly
40:43
dividing the word of truth.
40:44
Not the way that Schofield divided the word, the way that God meant for us to divide the
40:49
word.
40:50
So as we continue to study, you know, a dispensationalist who does not believe that the temple mattered
40:56
when it was destroyed in any, in any fashion.
41:00
And I don't know if that's where you stand.
41:02
The destruction of the temple in 8070 is something that Jesus said in Matthew 24 would
41:07
happen in their generation.
41:09
If you don't want to tie up all of the other things like the rest of the full preterist,
41:12
don't, but at least acknowledge the fact that the temple was destroyed just like he
41:16
said it would.
41:17
He did in the book.
41:18
But dispensationalists, not all of them agree, they take and say everything is future.
41:25
Dispensationalism is a new kid on the block.
41:26
Yes, but it's considered orthodox.
41:28
I mean, well, I would agree with you on the orthodox, but most dispensationalists don't
41:34
have a clue about 78 days.
41:35
No, and that's, they don't even, it's like another year, like a birthday.
41:39
It's crazy.
41:40
I don't, I have less problems with, with, with dispensation, but they've got, you know,
41:44
like seventh, they have as who I don't have any problems with my stepfather was seventh
41:47
day and is a problem.
41:48
I think he, you know, you'd have less problems because they agree more with you in your current
41:54
view, right?
41:55
Yeah.
41:56
Then, and the dispensationalist believes in a new heavens and a new earth resurrection
42:00
of the body.
42:01
They believe in all of those affirmations that unite all churches.
42:05
So within that they, we have our little fights with each other, but they're still in those
42:11
bounds.
42:12
A post millennialist?
42:13
Is that what you?
42:14
No, not at all.
42:15
I used to be.
42:16
Do you have a label?
42:17
It'd be all millennial, I guess.
42:19
Augustinian, Calvin, I would guess that kind of stuff.
42:25
Luther.
42:26
Before we get into your omeline, cause I promise a client, we're going to get there.
42:30
But so let's, no, we are, I want my first question answered.
42:34
John six, something in John six did something for you that leaped out of the page, dealing
42:40
with the infinity thing.
42:41
And then with my professors bringing them back and then they were bringing me back a
42:44
wealth of.
42:45
All right.
42:46
So what in John six?
42:47
John six is I will raise them up in the last day.
42:49
All who believe in me, who's whoever believes in me, whoever takes, whoever is drawn to
42:53
me by the father on and on.
42:55
He says it four times there.
42:57
I will raise them up in the last day.
43:01
And that's either 70 AD, which means we're not being raised today.
43:06
I asked Michael Miano this in the debate and his eyes looked like something stuck in a,
43:11
in the headlights.
43:12
I said, when, so when are you going to be raised?
43:19
He thought for a second.
43:20
So I, do you believe, and I said it again to him, do you believe in Jesus?
43:25
Yes.
43:26
Were you drawn to Jesus by the father?
43:27
Yes.
43:28
Were you be raised?
43:31
I've already been raised.
43:35
Then your last days already happened.
43:37
Well, no, that was to them in 70 AD.
43:40
Oh, then you're not going to be raised.
43:43
And then finally he admitted that passage does not apply to me.
43:47
Who was there?
43:48
And you go back and you can watch it yourself.
43:49
You could have heard a pin drop in that church when he said that that verse does not apply
43:55
to me.
43:56
Who was there?
43:57
And that's when I, I said, I don't even need to, my work is done.
44:02
That's it.
44:04
This whole section that Jesus is talking about resurrection, all of those great passages
44:09
about being drawn to the father, anyone that's drawn to the father cannot resist, you know,
44:13
and all those great, but that's all, that's just to them in that first century to the
44:16
Jews.
44:17
And that's it.
44:18
It's to no one else.
44:20
It's written to them.
44:22
And if you're going to apply that kind of hermeneutic, which, which they do, then you
44:27
can't blame groups like Israel only coming along and saying that's who it was written
44:32
to and that's who it applies to.
44:33
And then that's it.
44:34
So all this nonsense about going to church and denominations and deacons and elders
44:40
and priests and all of your silly debates and everything else, you can't solve it because
44:44
you don't have a direct voice of God speaking directly to an apostle telling you what is
44:50
directly the word of God like Moses.
44:52
None of us do.
44:54
All that we have is our opinions and interpretations.
44:57
Let it go, man.
44:59
There's no more church.
45:00
It's done.
45:01
It's, it's been fulfilled in the time when God spoke and poured out his spirit, but that's
45:06
it.
45:07
So the rest of it, which in some, in some full credits do go that far.
45:11
Right.
45:12
Can you blame them?
45:13
Well, that's what you're saying.
45:14
They go that far.
45:15
But then for me to go that far, because I thought, here's the solution.
45:18
70 AD is the solution to ecclesiology.
45:21
We can tear down all of our buildings now and build them into orphanages and actually
45:25
do some good with them, then have some guy stand up behind the pulpit claiming he's speaking
45:30
the word of God, which clearly he's not.
45:35
So that's all I'm getting from him is his opinion.
45:37
A lot of this seems to be very functional.
45:40
So what you're saying is like, once you saw that, then all of your arguments began to
45:46
crumble.
45:47
And that's really where it started for you.
45:49
It just went after the other.
45:51
I thought, I want to get this in.
45:53
This pertains to where we are, I swear.
45:57
So I don't see with infinity, if you believe that God created everything and is all knowing
46:06
to whatever point that's a different argument, obviously, created like light, not the sun,
46:12
but light, everything knows everything.
46:15
I don't see that as that difficult, illogical jump to be like, he knows everything that
46:19
ever will be.
46:20
Like I don't see that as a difficult.
46:23
So then he does know.
46:26
Is that not the antithesis of infinity argument?
46:30
The definition of infinity is that which you can add one more.
46:34
You can always add to it.
46:36
Whereas if God knows all, there's nothing you can add to it.
46:40
There's no increase of it whatsoever.
46:41
So can I say that God knows everything that ever will be forever?
46:45
Yeah.
46:46
Okay.
46:47
Okay.
46:48
But it's contained.
46:49
You can't add to that.
46:50
Yeah.
46:51
I guess that's contained, but functionally, it does the thing I want it to do.
46:55
Oh, for us, that's how Augustine made the difference between God as eternal.
47:00
He defined it just as that.
47:01
We're not going to understand this.
47:03
But he defined eternity different from infinity.
47:07
They made the distinction because God knows all things from beginning to end.
47:11
And so everything is self-contained.
47:14
That's not infinity.
47:15
Over here, you can't, you can add, you can always add this for infinity.
47:19
Here you can't.
47:21
And so they made the distinction between quantity of knowledge and quality of knowledge.
47:25
This is mathematics too.
47:26
So they made scientists do the same.
47:28
They wrestled the same, they wrestled the same problems.
47:31
So that is a very good point.
47:34
Strain theory, you know, so they made the distinction between eternity and an infinite
47:38
great argument.
47:39
Actually, that's a really good argument.
47:41
Oh, yep.
47:42
I haven't heard a response to it.
47:44
And what you just said is the distinction that they, you know, if you have a being
47:49
that knows everything to it, nothing can be added to that's not infinity, but it solves
47:56
the problem of infinity.
47:58
And then they left it at that.
47:59
So Augustine was pleased with that because we're not God.
48:01
I don't understand.
48:02
Sure.
48:03
I don't understand.
48:04
His ways are higher than our ways.
48:05
His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
48:06
Right.
48:07
I'm a worm here.
48:09
We had a discussion yesterday talking about trying to solve nothing, right?
48:14
Prove nothing.
48:15
Oh, yeah, yeah.
48:16
Yeah.
48:17
Yeah.
48:18
You can't prove a negative.
48:19
No, it is a very good argument, but I was going to say something, but I didn't fit.
48:22
I'll get to it.
48:23
Rick, that, that monk's kind of like pointing up here.
48:26
Can you just bring it down a little bit?
48:28
Mine?
48:29
Physically.
48:30
Oh, instead of rubbing on your face, the face of radio.
48:33
We can't hear your apples.
48:36
So basically saying, and I'm kind of asking you this, if we can't really, if we cannot
48:41
prove a negative.
48:43
The non-existence of a thing.
48:44
You cannot definitively prove the non-existence of a thing.
48:46
Well, can we, can we actually prove infinity?
48:49
Oh, infinity is a concept.
48:51
It's not a thing.
48:52
Well, is a negative, wouldn't be the non-existence of something be a concept as well?
48:59
I mean, I don't think that's a concept.
49:01
I think the non-existence of a thing is not a thing.
49:05
The thing that infinity is taking into consideration is all things, numbers, space.
49:11
But can you actually prove it?
49:12
No different than saying something doesn't exist or infinity.
49:17
You can't prove either one.
49:19
Well, okay.
49:20
You can prove infinity because you can always add one more.
49:22
You can't.
49:23
Hold on.
49:24
He's right.
49:25
You can't.
49:26
Well, you can.
49:27
You can.
49:28
The way to prove infinity is by another one.
49:29
But then once you add it, then that is something.
49:31
Well, see, that's okay.
49:32
That's the whole, infinity is a concept.
49:35
It's not a thing.
49:36
Plenty of books written on this spider web.
49:38
Right?
49:39
So it's not quite the same as looking for a car.
49:42
Those freaking Greeks and their infinity.
49:44
So if you get, so here's the thing, from everlasting to everlasting, forever and ever.
49:51
You know, like that's the plus one.
49:54
From everlasting to everlasting, to everlasting, to everlasting, forever and ever and ever.
49:59
So as a Christian, as a young Christian, when I believed like, okay, I believe in Jesus.
50:04
I want to be saved for my sins.
50:06
I have that.
50:07
Then what do I receive?
50:08
You receive everlasting life.
50:10
That's amazing.
50:11
Does that go on forever?
50:12
Yes.
50:13
Maybe not.
50:14
Now there is a, maybe not.
50:16
Can we say that forever eternity is a time statement.
50:22
We like our time statements, right?
50:24
And infinity is a material statement.
50:26
It's a material thing.
50:28
You add one to somethings, but forever is a time statement where infinity is not.
50:34
Let's imagine God is a bubble.
50:36
Let's make God a bubble for just a second.
50:37
And I'm doing the infinity sign by the way.
50:38
Yeah.
50:39
Y'all can't see me.
50:40
I thought you were doing like, uh-uh, girl.
50:43
So imagine God is a bubble.
50:45
Everything that ever will be ever, anytime, ever is always going to be inside that bubble,
50:49
which is God.
50:50
Always.
50:51
No.
50:52
Always.
50:53
So the word I am, the name I am, is the self-existent one.
50:57
The one that will never end.
51:00
He always will be.
51:01
In being.
51:02
Or will he be.
51:03
Yeah.
51:04
Or will he end?
51:05
If he doesn't end, then what?
51:06
Find out next time.
51:07
I'm kidding.
51:08
On.
51:09
Yeah.
51:10
So what's it going to be?
51:11
Like, does it last forever and ever or does it have a stop?
51:12
His being ends.
51:13
Right.
51:14
I guess my point is that-
51:15
His being does not end, but it is a self, we would define trinity as self-contained
51:19
being.
51:20
But everything is, lives and breathes and operates from within inside him.
51:24
Right.
51:25
So, now, is he-
51:26
Is he infinite?
51:27
No.
51:28
So, Alfred North Whitehead who developed what was called process theology and they were
51:32
incorporating these ideas.
51:33
I'm sort of a process theologian.
51:34
Sorry, inside joke.
51:35
Tiziana Service.
51:36
Yes.
51:37
Well, they were bringing in, so Whitehead's a brilliant mathematician, brilliant physicist.
51:43
So he's bringing in these ideas and relating them into the ideas of God.
51:48
And so God is in process of becoming.
51:51
God is always becoming.
51:53
So he's growing, he's becoming, he's learning.
51:55
You know, he's always adding on, he's always, so he would add, he was adding, this is called
51:59
process theology, which was rejected by all Roman Catholic Eastern Orthodox Protestant
52:05
theologian.
52:06
They rejected it because it was an expanding God.
52:09
God doesn't know the future.
52:12
The future has an infinite way it may play out.
52:17
We don't know all the causalities that can go on and neither does God.
52:21
So you might be saved or you might not.
52:24
Maybe I don't know, today you are, but tomorrow you might not be.
52:29
You know, so you're still speaking from a process theologians.
52:32
That's, well, you're not saying that from yourself.
52:34
If you started going down that route with them, because they've already, they're already
52:39
doing that, God, God is becoming.
52:42
So but the Bible says God never changes.
52:45
Right.
52:46
He is the same.
52:47
That's the exact opposite.
52:49
Exact opposite.
52:51
So we've got it.
52:52
God.
52:53
Hey, Rick.
52:54
You know, like Solomon over here, everything is meaningless.
52:58
Yes.
52:59
When you, when you, there comes a point, you know, when you apply concept that you cannot
53:04
prove to it, to a provable conversation, you, it all, everything starts to be in the breakdown.
53:09
Yeah.
53:10
Because you're going into stuff that you can't construct.
53:13
Well, or I can't construct infinity.
53:16
That's the problem with it.
53:17
I can always add one more.
53:18
It takes forever.
53:19
That's the frustration.
53:20
I can't prove it.
53:21
You know, that's the whole frustration.
53:22
You can't prove it because you don't know if you can add one more to it.
53:25
If it's available to add one more, you think you can, because, but you don't know, you
53:29
can't prove it.
53:30
But that breaks the definition of the word.
53:32
Doesn't it?
53:33
Yeah.
53:34
It's again, it's a con.
53:35
It's a psychic.
53:36
I just said it's cyclic.
53:37
It's a psychic.
53:38
It's a psychic.
53:39
Nothing.
53:40
You can't.
53:41
And we certainly.
53:42
What is it called?
53:43
Circumlo, it's a raccoon.
53:44
Circumlo-cuting.
53:45
We're, we're, we're going around.
53:46
It's the Mobius Strip.
53:47
I will.
53:48
So when Jesus says, all who have been given to me.
53:52
I will raise them.
53:54
At the last day.
53:55
In the last day.
53:56
So last night, I was talking.
53:57
Oh, the last day.
53:58
I was talking with my husband about this and about what today was coming.
54:02
And, and, and I said, I believe Occam's Razor.
54:05
The simplest solution is the solution.
54:09
The simplest answer is the solution.
54:11
The elotion.
54:12
Generally, generally, or keep it simple, stupid.
54:14
I mean, kiss.
54:15
I mean, that's what it stood for, right?
54:17
When the band, but.
54:19
Oh yeah.
54:20
No.
54:21
That's not what it meant.
54:22
That's not what it meant.
54:23
But Jesus even said.
54:25
The same Simmons would be upset.
54:26
Not to equate Jesus.
54:27
Just so you know, I'm licking this microphone right now with my, not the thing.
54:32
All right, everybody.
54:33
Okay.
54:34
Hold on.
54:35
All right.
54:36
It was just like too much crosstalk.
54:38
Sorry.
54:39
Please.
54:40
Please.
54:41
Or not to equate Jesus with Occam or kiss.
54:44
Though I'm sure that he enjoyed their music.
54:47
But Jesus even says the gospel, the concept of who I am and my kingdom is so simple, a
54:56
child can understand it.
54:58
And what we're doing is we're very nostically making this into this really complicated situation
55:10
and argument where I don't think Jesus intended it for it to go.
55:17
Like.
55:18
There's a lot of complications in the Bible.
55:21
I'm 49 years old.
55:24
And what I hear, I can't wrap my mind around it.
55:29
But when I read my Bible, it seems simple to me.
55:31
And I know I don't have a theology degree, but I can read the, I have the Holy Spirit.
55:35
So I can read the Bible.
55:37
I have, my gift is teaching.
55:40
So I have a way of absorbing the word and, and, and having a discussion with it.
55:45
But I try to keep it simple because I teach ninth grade girls.
55:48
Right.
55:49
I try to keep it simple so that they can understand it.
55:51
But what we're talking about with infinity and forever.
55:54
I'd rather not talk about it.
55:55
The Bible talks about an end.
55:57
That is so complicated.
55:58
And all the, or his will be saved and raised in the last day.
56:02
That to me is so simple to understand.
56:04
It's there will be an end when I don't know.
56:06
Okay.
56:07
So when you were, who are going to be raised?
56:09
Oh, okay.
56:10
That's simple, but an end of what?
56:13
When you were in, this complicates it.
56:15
But when you were in, what I just said, how did you view John six when you were in
56:20
Preterism?
56:21
Did you just sleep it under the rug?
56:22
Interestingly enough, Max King doesn't write on it.
56:25
Don Preston wasn't writing on it.
56:26
I went to search for it when I finally began to put these things together.
56:30
Keep in mind, we were still doing cutting edge stuff, 2004, 2005, 2006.
56:34
So a lot of stuff wasn't written on.
56:36
We're a new kid on the blocks.
56:37
We're, I'm writing a systematic theology.
56:39
I'm trying to bring in all of the other aspects of Christian history so that full Preterism
56:44
becomes a worldview.
56:46
It's not just what's full Preterism.
56:48
Well, it's Josephus and 78.
56:50
Well, you know, there's more to life than Josephus and 70 AD.
56:55
We got to talk about death.
56:56
We got to talk about crime.
56:58
We've got to talk about economy.
56:59
We've got to talk about all the worldview things that made Christendom, Christendom.
57:04
And one of them that did, that made Christendom, Christendom is the Greeks had a cyclical endless
57:10
time that burned out finally into a purposeless conflagration.
57:13
That was their meaninglessness of life.
57:16
It just kind of burned out at the end somewhere in the time of meaningless cyclical, meaningless
57:22
spiraling out of and no control whatsoever.
57:26
Here comes Augustine with God and time is linear and it has a beginning and it has a
57:31
purpose of teleology.
57:32
It has an end.
57:33
It means something.
57:34
It's going somewhere.
57:35
There's a aim, a goal, an end.
57:38
There's a field post.
57:39
There's a line to be crossed, a consummation.
57:43
It all, everything now means something because it's all heading towards the good of the consummate
57:48
God.
57:49
Well, this exploded the Greek world.
57:53
This idea.
57:54
It was revolutionary.
57:55
It was unbelievably revolutionary.
57:57
Nobody was thinking like this.
57:59
And so with his idea and we, all of our novels in the West are a beginning, a middle and
58:03
an end.
58:04
Where did we get that from?
58:05
We got that from the Bible.
58:07
We got it from Augustine.
58:08
Everything changed in Western.
58:10
That's why they say Christendom and Western Christianity and civilization go hand in hand.
58:15
Well, I can build on a concept of progressive beginning and I'm progressing towards the goal
58:21
line.
58:22
Got to get to the finish line.
58:24
Well, full preterism says the finish line.
58:27
Just back here.
58:30
We've already reached it.
58:31
Rick, where are you going to say something just a couple of minutes ago?
58:34
No, I just said the end of what?
58:36
The end of what?
58:37
Like, let's end this and we'll get into it in the next episode.
58:42
Yeah, let's end this podcast.
58:44
This podcast will never end.
58:45
It goes on infinity.
58:46
Add one more.
58:47
Add one more.
58:48
It goes on and on, my friend.
58:49
No, but it goes on forever.
58:50
Dr. Frost, thank you so much for giving us your time.
58:51
Thank you.
58:52
And being here for letting me have your time.
59:01
It means a lot to me that you're here.
59:03
And Rick Carter, Andy Bishop, Serita Edge, Edgerton, thanks for being here.
59:09
Thanks for coming all the way up here, even though I didn't buy your breakfast.
59:11
That's all right.
59:12
I will buy you lunch.
59:13
I'll buy you lunch.
59:14
I have a joke.
59:15
Oh, that's here.
59:16
You told me to bring a joke.
59:18
You got seven of them?
59:19
I only want one for now.
59:20
I got this one.
59:21
All right.
59:22
So there was a guy named Juan and he was a clam digger.
59:26
He, that's what he did for a living.
59:28
I love it already.
59:30
Okay.
59:31
And so, but when he was in the process, he found this otter who was injured and he nursed
59:37
this otter back to health.
59:40
And he and this otter became really good friends and the otter was the greatest clam digger.
59:45
He could go down and get the clams and bring them back up.
59:48
So this man knocks on Juan's wife's door, his esposa, and he says to the wife, I would
59:55
like to hire Juan to do some clam diving for me.
59:58
And he, she said, well, it's $500.
1:00:01
And he was like, why so expensive?
1:00:03
And she said, well, he has this otter that does it for him.
1:00:07
So you have to pay for both of them.
1:00:08
He goes, well, I just want to hire Juan.
1:00:10
I'll give him $350 to go do this for me.
1:00:13
And she said, well, you can't have one without the otter.
1:00:15
I had no idea.
1:00:17
I had no idea.
1:00:18
And there was a rim shot.
1:00:21
I just kept thinking.
1:00:22
I have a sound.
1:00:23
I used to throw that in sometimes.
1:00:24
I haven't used it in a while.
1:00:25
You ought to just do the laughing donkey.
1:00:27
Anyway, well, thanks everybody for being here.
1:00:32
And we will talk to you guys again next time on the Burrows of Berea.
1:00:35
Peace out.
1:00:36
Bye bye, y'all.
1:00:37
Hey guys, this is Rick from the Burrows of Berea.
1:00:42
Do you know how much blood, sweat, and tears it takes to make a podcast?
1:00:45
None.
1:00:46
But that doesn't mean that it doesn't cost a lot.
1:00:49
And so if you guys don't mind, if you would like to give to help us with these episodes,
1:00:53
it would be great.
1:00:54
We'll put out even more content.
1:00:55
And if you go to our Patreon page, just search for the Burrows of Berea.
1:00:58
You'll get extra notes, extra episodes, and it's pretty much free.
1:01:04
A dollar gets you a lot.
1:01:06
Thanks guys.
1:01:15
You are listening to Dr. Sam Frost Friday.
1:01:23
And cut.
1:01:24
I think we should be on NPR or something.
1:01:27
Tiny desk.
1:01:28
Oh, the ghosts are tiny desk.
1:01:29
I thought you were going to do the Frosty Friday thing.
1:01:33
I just said Dr. Sam Frost Friday.
1:01:37
Frosty Friday?
1:01:38
No, no, I just asked them.
1:01:39
I didn't want to say that.
1:01:40
If you say Frosty Friday, it's a joke.
1:01:41
I didn't bring you a water, Dr. Frost.
1:01:44
And it could be, you know how we are, especially with full Preterous talking about Frost.
1:01:50
It's like, oh, you betcha he's Frosty.
1:01:54
Do you play congas?
1:01:55
Is congas kind of a thing on your list?
1:01:57
Yes.
1:01:58
You do play congas?
1:01:59
Oh, God, there's almost like, I almost want to try to force you to play congas on a song
1:02:03
if we have like 15 extra minutes after this is done.
1:02:06
Would you be willing to do that?
1:02:08
If I could play, I mean, I'm not a-
1:02:09
You'd have to hear this song and see if you, you know, anything occurs to you, of course,
1:02:13
not like, you'd have to see if it inspired you even a little.
1:02:16
Play monkey.
1:02:17
Play dance.
1:02:18
Dance, small guy.
1:02:19
But if you hear it and it's if you hear it.
1:02:22
It's not like you know it.
1:02:23
Yeah.
1:02:24
It's not sweet.
1:02:25
And it sounds like without struggle, you have like some simple idea to put on.
1:02:29
I could listen to the song.
1:02:30
Right, right.
1:02:31
You'd have to, obviously, like you said, you'd have to hear it and see if you're even a little
1:02:34
bit moved to put something on it.
1:02:36
Andy, what instruments do you play?
1:02:39
Badly or goodly.
1:02:41
Because if-
1:02:42
If you want to know badly, then it's like-
1:02:45
Every instrument.
1:02:46
Almost.
1:02:47
Except the bass.
1:02:48
This dude is a bass phenol.
1:02:49
Yeah, I actually play bass, but I know how to play basically anything with strings.
1:02:57
What do you play?
1:02:58
I can play the piano with this hand.
1:03:00
She's a singer.
1:03:01
I can play the piano with this hand, but I cannot play the piano with these hands together.
1:03:05
And I can sing.
1:03:06
She has a good voice.
1:03:07
I haven't heard a thing yet, but Rick says she has a great voice.
1:03:09
Dude.
1:03:10
I'm an alto.
1:03:11
Yeah.
1:03:12
I'm a tenor.
1:03:13
I think it's solo.
1:03:14
You can sing.
1:03:15
That's great.
1:03:16
I'm a solo.
1:03:17
I'm like 10 or 12 miles from the church.
1:03:18
Bam.
1:03:19
I'm a solo backup.
1:03:20
I sing solo backup in the woods.
1:03:22
Y'all can't be here, man.
1:03:23
That's perfect.
1:03:24
That's exactly how I would make you.
1:03:25
Actually, that's not true.
1:03:28
Rick's a pretty good piano player.
1:03:30
I don't know what else he does, but I definitely know he plays piano.
1:03:33
I play, well, which one?
1:03:34
Badly or goodly?
1:03:35
So I play-
1:03:36
Well, goodly enough.
1:03:37
Let's go with that.
1:03:38
Yeah, I play the guitar as a rhythm guitarist.
1:03:40
I just strum the guitar.
1:03:41
I strum the guitar.
1:03:42
I play the guitar chords in different ways, you know?
1:03:45
I know all four of the chords.
1:03:46
Exactly.
1:03:47
I know all the chords.
1:03:48
I can get a guitar or a blue blanket.
1:03:49
Kind of like my dance moves.
1:03:50
I can show you both of my dance moves.
1:03:52
Pratt or slow.
1:03:53
Right?
1:03:54
Yeah.
1:03:55
But anyway.
1:03:56
Pratt or metal?
1:03:57
Pratt or metal.
1:03:58
Pratt or metal.
1:03:59
Yeah.
1:04:00
So we're good?
1:04:01
Oh, yeah.
1:04:02
Definitely.
1:04:03
All right.