Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 6, Season 2: Due Process Denied: Inside the Broken Family Court System with Attorney Christine Miller

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Episode 6, Season 2: Due Process Denied: Inside the Broken Family Court System with Attorney Christine Miller · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast. I'm your co host Raina.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Butcher here with our host, doctor Sarah Hinsley. Hey girl, Hey,
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: what's up?
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 0:20
  Speaker 4: Not much. Just so excited for our guests today.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Same, I'm so excited.
• 0:24
  Speaker 4: In our last episode, we had Meg Miller from her
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: platform Stand with Meg, who has probably the most horrific
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: family court story I have ever heard. And now we
• 0:34
  Speaker 4: have someone that I have connected with on TikTok who
• 0:37
  Speaker 4: is from the lovely state of Kentucky where we are.
• 0:40
  Speaker 4: She's in Louisville. And although we are sports rivals, yeah,
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: we are not going to hold that against you.
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, good, okay, okay.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go c Goky.
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: But you I found you on TikTok just like I
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: did Meg, and you are doing some outstanding things for
• 0:57
  Speaker 4: improving the family court system and advocate for accountability, specifically
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: of judges in the system. And you got to sit
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: here through the recording of Meg's podcast, and I know
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: a lot of what Meg is saying, you know, or
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: what she said on that episode. Some people are going
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: to go, yeah, how did that happen? Or how did
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: that happen? And Christine's shaking her head the whole time, like, yes,
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: that can happen, Yes, this does absolutely, And so you know,
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: as unbelievable as Meg's story sounds, it is unfortunately all true.
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: And I've been through my own horrific family court battles
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: and as Rainy As has also here. But we're so
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: excited to have you, and we just want you to
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: tell us a little bit about what you are doing.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: And well, first give us a take on on Meg's story,
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: because you just sat through it.
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I started this platform for a plethora of reasons,
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: but one of the big ones I could not go
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: anywhere in Louisville without someone telling me their horror stories.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: And so if there's anything I can say is that
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: you are not crazy. The system is. You are not crazy.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: The system is. These stories seem so unbelievable because a
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: system that was designed to protect families and children's would
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: never allow any of this to happen, right, right, would think?
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: The reality is the courts are getting it wrong more
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: often than they're getting it right. And I do think
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: with meg scenario, it's one of those that I could
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: see some morning signs for sure, especially with the income
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: that her husband was making. And then we talked about
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: child Sport. Now with his case in particular, it seems
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: he had his own business. So when I was reading
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: her decree, it showed that he had a lot, a
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: big difference with net income, which obviously you do if
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: you run a business. You know I've run one, you
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: run one. But that is a really easy place to
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: hide money. And so you have someone with an incentive
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: to pay Luss child Sport to hide money. So that
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: was a red flag. The tracker on the car, major
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: red flag to me. That shows domestic violence all day
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: and you would know better than I. Absolutely, And then
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: the notion that you have, let's just say, hypothetically speaking
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: that Meg, everything that she's saying isn't true. Well, I'm
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: saying the family court system isn't working, and she's got
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: a decree from a state that says she gets eighty
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: percent time with her children. So if the family court
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: system were working, how did that outcome happen? Right? If
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: she's not telling the truth, which clearly I believe that
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: her story is accurate, I think she's doing a lot
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: of work. There were so many red flags, especially the
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: notion of the ex husband filing to modify or terminate
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: maintenance at the same time that.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: It wasn't even that much maintenance to begin.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: With, right, But maintenance has nothing to do with children,
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So certainly, if there were
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: an issue with children, you wouldn't be filing in a
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: separate jurisdiction to terminate maintenance. That wouldn't be money, would
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: not be your top priority if your children were being abused.
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: In my opinion, and so as unfathomable as it sounds,
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: it is real, folks. And I think it's really important
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: to highlight that you were a family a court attorney,
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: family law attorney, I should say. And so you've seen
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: the corruption, You've seen the I don't even know what
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: word you know, people being so misguided, people not following
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: rules and regulations, not allowing people their rights. Tell us
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: a little bit about your experience practicing family law and
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: why ultimately you decided to leave.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: So I started as a public defender. I was a
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: public defender in eastern Kentucky. I did juvenile work, loved
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: it so passionate, but I wanted to get back to Louisville,
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: That's where my mama was. I was ready. I was
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: twenty nine, I think when I started my own firm,
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: and I met a guy that was a criminal attorney
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: and they needed a family law practitioner to come in
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: for their firm. And I thought, you know, I'll try
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: it for a little bit and then I'll dabble back
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: into the criminal and my parents had been divorced, and
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: I absolutely loved it. I started my firm in twenty fourteen.
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: I was able to have flexibility. I could get resolutions
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: from my clients. You know, in private practice, you could
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: choose your clients, which I couldn't do when I was
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: a public defender. And so I was super happy for
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: the first three or four years. And then as you grow,
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: you get bigger. I had a firm, we bought a place.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: You're making more money, you get more of the high
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: asset cases, you get more of the high conflict cases.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: And I started to see very quickly that the system
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: was changing as well. We had a different set of
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: judges that had come on the bench, but COVID was
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: really a game changer. I think a lot of these
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: judges realized that they could sit at home or do
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: stuff on zoom, remodel their house, get on social media,
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: and the delays became absolutely out of control.
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: Yep. The delay was the demise of the father of
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: my children.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: And the conflict it was encouraged you started to see.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: So in Kentucky we have guardian at items, which are
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: orneyes that are appointed to represent the best interest of
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: the child or children. We had a case Morgan v. Ghetter,
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: it came out in twenty thirteen ish that established these focs.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: And focs are court appointed attorneys that still have the
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: duty to the best interest of the child or children,
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: but they're essentially investigative, so they do reports. But we've
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: created this system where we have all of these attorneys
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: that can make a significant amount of money their whole
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: livelihood frankly, by being appointed, and they have immunity and
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: these ridiculous.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: And go into more detail about that, Like when you
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: say immunity, like immunity from what.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: So judges have judicial immunity and so if they're acting
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: in their official capacity then they cannot they're protected from
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: lawsuits essentially, And immunity is a problem throughout our country
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: in all avenues, Like government officials should not have immunity. Really,
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: if you misbehave or if you act, you know, out
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: of negligence, there should be consequences like anyone else, but
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: in Kentucky in particular, and we were we're a national
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: model for family court. How terrifying is that?
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah? I commented on your video and I was like,
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: oh my gosh, family court started in my state. FML. Yeah,
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: and you didn't reply and I was like, yeah, yeah,
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: I am so disappointed in my state.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: So, and there were family courts essentially like in other jurisdictions,
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: but family Court in Louisville started in nineteen ninety one.
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: I believe.
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: It was a pilot program, and it was the notion
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: one family, one court, one judge. So if you had
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: a domestic violence order that was filed, that's going to
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: go to the exact same judge that you have the
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: divorce or that's going to go to the exact same
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: judge that you have the dependency, neglect and abuse action,
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: and so this judge should know everything about this family. Well,
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: didn't work out like that, and unfortunately in Kentucky we
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: have well, I'm unfortunately, in my opinion, we had a
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: constitutional amendment in two thousand and one I believe, or
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: two thousand and two that established family court in our constitution.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: It's not going away. Anytime soon.
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: But then you have back to like COVID, you have
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: these judges that have just so much power immunity A
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: Family Court Rule six in Kentucky allows for them to
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: point all these third party experts. So you have the FOC,
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: the gl custodial evaluators, reunification therapists which don't even get
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: me started on that. That is, in my opinion, you
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: have reunification because you have this court manufactured abandonment. Right,
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: it's not actual, it is actual abandonment, but it's not
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: what reunification therapy was meant for. In my opinion, I'm
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: not a psychologist, but the court is ordering these people
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: to be away from their children, right, And then you
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: have a therapist that's going to make ten twenty thirty
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: thousand dollars on reunification.
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: Custodial about evaluators charging fifteen twenty thousand dollars for that's cheap. Yeah, yeah,
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: that is. That was like the initial starting price that
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: we were given.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: Custodial evaluators are made up to thirty five forty thousand dollars.
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: They have this judicial immunity and essentially it's quasi judicial immunity,
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: but essentially that means that they're protected. They're an arm
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: of the court. They're appointed by the court, and so
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: that court appointment allows them keeps them free from liability. Frankly,
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: and one big thing I noticed, and again I'm not
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: in y'all's field, but if they will not do a
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: custodial evaluation without that court order, because without that court order,
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: there's no immunity. So if this is science and if
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: it works, why aren't you providing that service?
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: I mean, I know in our case it was like, well,
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: can we go get this done privately? It's like no,
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: they have to order it, and we asked for and
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: it got denied.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: Well, and I mean that could be a blessing and
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: a curse because the thing about these custodial evaluations they'll
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: take eighteen months. And so just big picture, let's step back, like,
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: if we're really creating a system in the best interest
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: of children who age out of the age of majority
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: at eighteen eighteen months two years of their life, are like, well,
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: we've got to wait for this magical thirty page report
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: with diagnostics that's going to tell us who is the
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: better parent. You know, I struggle to see the science
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: behind that ye have y'all ever read one?
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: I have read one. I have not I have you know,
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: I have read one, and they're kind of brutal. You know,
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: they're kind of brutal. And one of the things that
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: they do in custodial evaluations is they give the MMPI right,
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: And an MMPI is an assessment of essentially personality per se,
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: right and the state of your kind of emotional well being,
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: and it can detect for a lot of different things,
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: but it is and Meg kind of touched on this
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: in her episode. You can actually be flagged for being
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: quote unquote too positive or not having a big enough
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: stress response right to what you're experiencing. But then if
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: your stress response is too big, then they can judge
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: that too, So that MMPI really walks this fine line
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: of looking at all of these very intricate things. And
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: a lot of people get test fatigue because it's so long,
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: and they get a lot of anxiety coming in to
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: take the test, and then there's the social pressure of
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: you know, oh my gosh, this affects the custody of
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: my children. And there's a lot of problems in and
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: of itself with self report assessments. Lots of bias, lots
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: of issues with memory. Recall, I mean humans aren't robots, right,
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: you know, we're fluid. We can change in our mood
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: from day to day, we can change in our perspectives
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: after things happen to us. And then having so much
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: weight put on that one assessment is in my opinion,
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: a little bit nuts.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: And is that really indicative of how someone parents? I mean,
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: we don't wire in this country a parenting exam before
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: you have a child.
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: Right, No, No, I think it just you know, it
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: measures you know, the person's psyche. Really, it's not really
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: measuring how good of a parent they are.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: But does it even really measure that to like, I
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: mean it's to a specific degree, because, like you just said,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: there could be multiple variables that come into play that
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: don't make it valid.
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you know, the test is designed in
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: such a way that it's supposed to catch like malingering.
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: It's supposed to catch if someone's being trying to be
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: too positive or if they're trying to you know, show
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: a false disorder. It's meant to try to catch those things.
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: But it's still not a perfect test. I mean, with
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: any assessment, there's what we call error, right, which an
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: error can come from the test itself. It can come
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: from you know, the person taking the test not reading
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: the questions correctly, or you know, lying or being biased
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: or poor memory. Recall, there's all sorts of error that
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: happens in these assessments, and psychologists have to interpret the assessments.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: You know, of course there's a scoring mechanism, but there's
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: still some level of human interpretation in the way that
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: you know, you take this score and you present it
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: to the court, right, Like the language by which you
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: present this information and the way that you could shape
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: it or mold it to highlight certain things or to
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: you know, not highlight certain things is still up to
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: a human person that could have bias or motive for
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: one side or the other side. Because of the financial aspect,
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: like who's paying for the evaluation?
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think that custodial evaluators. It draws a
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: particular kind of psychologist, Like a girlfriend of mine is
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: a psychologist, and it is like, I wouldn't touch that
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: with a ten foot or oh, like who am I?
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: She says as a psychologist, we really shouldn't be predicting
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: the future like that, Like it's a slippery slope as
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: far as us saying that this is science to say
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: what's going to happen in four years and how someone's
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: going to parent, And then we have stories of people
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: that were found to be the better parent, and then
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: the children have been unlived or been you know, come
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: out when they get older and say yes, I was
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: in an abusive situation. And I do think One Mom's Battle,
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: which has a huge platform, I do wish the One
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Mom's Battle and the Father's Rights movement would come together
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: because I do not think this is a gender issue.
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: It is so not a gender issue.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: Family Court's getting it wrong more often than they're getting
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: it right. If they could unite, I think there could
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: be some movement because they both have large platforms. But
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: that being said, One Mom's Battle does have a movement
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: that children are coming, and that is so true. Family
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: Court has changed dramatically in the last ten to fifteen years,
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: and we're going to see twenty year olds that are
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: going to go to their gals and their foc and
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: going to say you met me once, you never met me,
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: Now you met my step mom never. You know what
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, like, how could you do this? And I
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: don't understand how these attorneys don't realize that is the
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: child is your client essentially. I mean, certainly with the
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: guardian at lightem But how in the world can you
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: ascertain paying the best interest of anything without having met
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: the person.
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I've told my story, you know, FOC
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: in my case did fifteen minutes of investigation, fifteen minutes
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: of total investigative work, and on a case that took
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: over a year.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: Ten page report.
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: No, it was like three pages, four pages.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: See, some of ours will be ten page reports, but
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: it will it will be, you know, the same. I'd
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: like to run the copy to pay to see how
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: often they're using the same verbiage. Same with custodial evaluators,
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: because I think it's lucrative. And then to go back
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: to the financial component. If you incentivize chaos, it's going
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: to lead to chaos. If you incentivize conflict, it's going
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: to lead to fifteen.
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: Hundred dollars for fifteen minutes.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm sure it's checking emails, But why do
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: we have an attorney appointed for the child that's going
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: to just be checking emails that two lawyers are already
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: sending and not meeting with the school, not me being
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: with the doctor, not meeting with the child, not meeting
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: with the preschool teacher. You know, we just had a
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: custodial evaluator that did a lesson that said, we try
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: to limit the people we talk to, and we try
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: to not limit anyone that could potentially be biased. And
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: it's like, you mean a witness, right, yeah, I mean.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: This is al Yeah.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: So they will interview people like the pediatrician, which I
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: think is fine, but like you were talking about psychopaths
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: and sociopaths, they can present amazing and amazing.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: How often do you really see a pediatrician like not
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: that often?
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Like you need to be.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: You need to be interviewing people that this child has
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: close relationships with.
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: And that's why, like an attorney isn't well versed enough
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: to understand the science of alienation, for example, to see
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: a child and to look at the child and be like, wow,
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: this is alienation or coercion.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: And that's what's so interesting.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: I think about this dynamic, you know, having both of
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: you here today and really the answer, right, So we've
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: got an attorney, we have a psychologist, you know, a
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: specific psychologist that you know studies human behavior.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: So what's the answer. Where does the reform happen?
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: I personally think there needs to be jury trials and
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: they need to be speedy.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: I think jury trials would go a long way. I
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: think we have to start with the judges. I think
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: we need judicial accountability. And what I mean by that
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: is we have judges that want to be social media stars.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: We have judges that are working part time. We have
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: judges that are delegating their judicial authority to g als
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: FOC's custodial evaluation and doing no work and doing little
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: to no work. I want people to know, when you
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: go in front of a judge, you should expect, especially
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: where I practice in Louisville, Kentucky, you should expect that
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: the judge has not read the motion that is before it.
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: Oh, I know these judges are not reading the motions
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: because they scramble and then they continue it and then
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: it's another hearing where you pay your attorneys and you
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: show up to be well, let's check back in in
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: three months. Soa go take a online parenting course and
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: come back in three months, absolutely, which is going to
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: do nothing. And for somebody who has NPD or is
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: a psychopath or has BPD or has you know, some
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: of these personality disorders.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: What's that even presenting?
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously I see the problem that you're saying,
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: like the judge isn't really reading the motion, But I mean,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: how how is this presenting the problems that the children
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: are facing?
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Like is it even no?
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they are not putting the children first? How can
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: you make a determination on a child when you don't
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: know the allegations about the parents in the case. And
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: we talked, y'all talked a lot about due process. So
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: due process is notice and an opportunity to be heard.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: I taught a high school class and I loved it.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: I t had a law class and I was like, notice,
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: opportunity to be heard. But that second prong opportunity to
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: be heard is to present your case, to cross examine,
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: to have this done under oath. I mean, so much
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: of this is happening where they're not even testifying under oath.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, it'll be an ex parte motion and X
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: partay ye Affidavid, And you know, I understand there are
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: situations that call for X parte communications and there are
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: horrific cases where children do need to be removed parents.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: But going back to Meg, let's just think about this.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: So why is it that there are so many high
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: asset divorces where children need to be removed? Right? Yep?
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: When there's there tends to be millions of dollars at play.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: Those are the ones where you know things are going
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: really wonky and we have to ask ourselves why. Because
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: they have the money to keep the cycle going. And
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: the bad players, the judges, the focs, they know this
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: and it's their livelihood and they want money, and the
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: judges want people to donate to their campaigns. And it
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: is an all vicious signs of scheme. In my opinion,
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: it's all big paramid scheme.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: And I want to be careful about what I say
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: for my judicial not judicial ethics, but my legal ethics.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: But you know, I've been practicing. I'm being a license
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: raighter now for fifteen years. I have not taken a
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: case in probably two or three I have never had
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: a bar complant filed against me as a public defender
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: or as in private practice. And so I do think
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: the judges are really struggling with how to handle me.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: But I do know that I'm under a microscope. I mean,
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: I'm getting some traction in Louisville, and so I'm waiting
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: for the moment that they try to file and say
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: I'm violating my ethics by telling the truth, which I mean,
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: bring it on, but I don't think. I also think
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: that the system is so similar to law enforcement, and
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: as a former public defender, I love most law enforcement
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: to be honest, like some of the people in eastern
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: Kentucky that I still talk to to this day, or
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: some of the former cops because we really developed a
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: good relationship in working on cases. That being said, there
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: are bad cops, no doubt, no doubt. And the problem
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: where we saw police reform was the cops that saw
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: bad behavior didn't report it. And we're in the same
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: boat with judges. We're in the same boat with the
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: family court system.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: They're afraid of the consequences.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and their cultural thing maybe that you know, without
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: getting too much into it, because we don't want to
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: get canceled, but you know, I mean there are some
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: cultural things that are happening I think just in our
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: world in general, that are causing maybe law enforcement and
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: judges to stay quiet and to stay silent.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: Well, it's protect your own And you know how I
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: really got my first TikTok that I made was because
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: of the TikTok judge we have in Louisville, Kentucky. And
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: I had left the practice because of her and a
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: plethora of other reasons. I mean, I just couldn't be
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: a part of the system anymore. And life is too short.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: It wasn't fulfilling. I felt like I was doing more
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: harm by participating, you know, because these delays and then
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: the emotional component as an attorney that you're not providing
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: help to these people that are paying you so much money. Right,
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: But we had a judge that selfie recorded a domestic
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: violence hearing for TikTok fame, and I reported that I
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: saw it Super Bowl Sunday. I sent it to the judges.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: I was like, y'all, surely this is enough. Surely, and
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: the media was local media was going to do a story.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: And then one of the judges got it axed and
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: I was like, you know, if she can figure out TikTok,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: I can too. Yeah, And so I thought it was
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: a Louisville problem. I mean, that's how naive I was.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: While even a year ago, I was like, it's just
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: our Louisville judges and then all of a sudden, I
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: start getting messages from counting came out of the woodwork
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: overywhere it's the system.
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: It's the system. And because I think the system has
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: been set up to have this immunity to protect the
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: bad players, they're essentially running around with free rein with
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: people's the most precious things in people's lives, their children
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: and when their hands.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: We need judicial accountability, they need to work full time.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: We need to know who's donating to their campaign. There
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: is zero reason that attorneys should be donating it. And
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: I'm going to turn either did I mean, I'll be
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: brutally honest. I've donated to campaigns, I've held fundraisers for people,
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: and I think about it now, Oh my goodness, if
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: I were going through the system, how would you feel
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: about that?
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: You know, because you know my husband, you know, he's
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: been through two divorces and of course my divorce and
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: custody battle, and you know, getting small town is a
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: real thing too, that's a rough thing, and it's happened
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: over and over again, and it's one of those things
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: where it's like, oh maybe, like say we're in Lexington,
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: but the case is in the next county over right,
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: And so you know, you come in with your Lexington
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: attorney and they come in with their small town attorney
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: who's then BFFs with the foc and rubbing elbows and
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: chucking and yucking it up and there in the court
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: and you're sitting there like, oh my god, I'm screwed.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: Yep, we caught home cooked. Yeah, it's like you you
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: don't get home cooked.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I got home cooked, not in the good way.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: And I was right, well, I mean, I'm from Louis
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Vagret Mole County, but I was raised legally in eastern Kentucky.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: And so I remember one time I went to Harden
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: County or Bullet County and they were like, I was like,
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: y'all don't know the first thing about home cooking. Somebody,
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: I'll give you the number of an Eastern Kentucky prosecutor.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: He'll teach you. But it's so true, I mean, and
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: it's a small network of people and a lot of attorneys.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: Like when I was practicing, I didn't see a lot
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: of this because I was able to choose my clients
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: and if I ever had and I mean, I am
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: not going to be the attorney that says I didn't
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: I always only represented innocent people, okay, because that's a radical,
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: insane thing to think as an attorney. But I wouldn't.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: There were certain things that I was just no, no, no,
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean. I'm not going to file
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: emotion about a half hour because that's just silly. We're
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: wasting money, you know. Or I would tell my clients like,
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: if you want to redo my kitchen, it needs it,
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: but put this in a five twenty nine account for
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: your kid, right you need, or stop the bleeding. If
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: you're in family court you've already lost. Stopped the bleeding.
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: And to back up as far as like Meg's story.
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: If.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: It's unbelievable and you go in thinking, Okay, I'm going
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: to go to the judge, I'm going to go to
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: my lawyer. I'm going to tell the truth, and that's
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: going to be that it's going to work out. It's
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: going to be hard, and I'm really scared to tell
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: the truth. And this is the hardest thing I've ever
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: done because I never talked about the domestic balance that happened,
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: or I never talked about what was going on behind
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: closed doors, and so you go and you have that
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: moment and the attorney's like, the judge's going to give
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: fifty to fifty, and the judge is like, well, well
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: calm down, ma'am. Whoa. We're in a court of what
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: ma'am ma'am Like the way they speak to people or sir, sir, whoa, sir,
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: bailiff sir, and you are just being gas lit. Time's
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: ten after trying to share.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: Your story, and one of the things that they say
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: is like, don't show any emotion. Don't you dare show
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: any emotion. Don't you dare? You know? And you're just like,
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: this is the most emotional thing I've ever been through
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: in my life, breaking on there, and you're expecting me
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: to sit here like a statue against this man who
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: you know, in my case, has assaulted me, has burned
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: things in my driveway, has drove my kids drunk, kidnapped
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: one of my children for days on end, where I
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: didn't know where my one and a half year old
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: child was. Oh my goodness, and I could get no help,
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: no help.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And you're not allowed to show any emotions.
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: And I'm not good. Don't show any emotion because you'll
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: come off as the unstable one. Right, that's what That's
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: what they'll think about you.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: And there is no training for judges as far as
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: I know, for understanding this emotional component. And also in Kentucky,
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: you there's no requirement that you have to have ever
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: practiced family law to be a family law attorney. There's
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: no requirement. How many prosecutors do we have that are
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: on the bench. Prosecutors have never had a client right,
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: I mean they have no idea how to do client management.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: They have no understanding of you know, no one ever
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: called me because they were having a good day. No
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: one's like Christine, life is going good. Can I give
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: you three hundred dollars an hour to sit here and
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: have this conversation. They are going through the first time
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: in their life. They're paying an obscene amount of money
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: for it, and then they're being told that they're a
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: little child and to sit and stay and behave, and
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: then they're not getting the outcome they want and it's
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: being delayed, delayed, delayed, I think.
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: Delayed, delayed, delayed, learned.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: Yes, the inconsistencies in the delays are a problem. And
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: so I have started. I've got a partner, he's a
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: former family law attorney that was like, I'm out, I'm out,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: and there's a lot of us. But we are starting
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: a judge which is judge dot Oh sorry, can.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: You even have it on your shirt?
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: Sweat shirt but judge so judge dash wiy dot com.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: And what we want to do. We're going to take
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: the first eight weeks or so. We want people to
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: email and call and tell us your story so we
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: know where to look. Because what's interesting about this and
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: from the illegal perspective, is I'm so interested in patterns
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: and so you see the same thing over and over.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: It's the same play, different actors, and these judges will
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: rule a certain kind of way. And so it's so
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: important that when people go in the process, if you
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: draw Judge Brown, which that's the TikTok judge, you need
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: to know what you're dealing with. So we want to
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: have the availability for you to be able to look
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: at orders from her every time she's been turned over
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: by the Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court watch
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: video of her. We want court watchers. You know, people
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: love to watch the murder trials or the Karen Reids.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Y'all need to be watching family court.
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, it's insane. And they talk, These judges
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: talk to you like dogs.
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: It would shock people. I mean, I've seen a family
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: court judge basically throw something. We have a judge right
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: now in Louisville that he is so sarcastic, so demeaning,
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: and the profession draws a lot of people that probably
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: haven't had power before.
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of things to people, a lot of
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: bad things to people.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: And he thinks, you know, I don't know that he's
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: thought it through, but he thinks, you know, the best
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: best I can surmise is that if he just yells
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: at somebody, then they'll just oh, okay, I'll be a
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: good parent, or oh okay, I'll stop doing that. And
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: if that were possible, why don't you just, you know,
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: yell for world peace and have world peace happen.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: It's just it's it's silly.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And they'll talk to you like you are the
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: dumbest person they've ever met. The way that judges speak
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: to attorneys in family course is shocking.
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: Yes to me, yes, it is shocking.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I want to know more about judge, you though, so
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: like walk our listeners through it so they can go
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: to the website is it is it active?
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: It will be active on Monday, so probably by the
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: time this.
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: Okay, awesome ye.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Will be active, so they can go to the website
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: and then just kind of walk them through the process
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: in terms of what they'll find there.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: So right now, and I've been in this space for
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: about a year, and so when I first started the
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: family Court reform again, I thought it was just Louisville,
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: and then I've kind of blown up, you know, in
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: all different places, and there's a lot of movement even globally.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: But we are looking to collect stories to see where
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: we should go. We're starting in Louisville, but we want
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: to hear all of your stories because Judge is essentially
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: going to you know, watch the judges and judge them
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: like they're judging people, and we really want to call
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: out the good judges. So if you were there doing
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: your job, I actually had the opportunity to read, not
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: in its entirety, but Meg's initial decree, which was out
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: of was a Missouri or Kansas initially.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Both, right, she had two jurisdic.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: Missouri was the first one, very well written decree and
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: you know, I know nothing about this judge but reading it,
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: you're like, Okay, we've touched every base. And so there
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: are judges out there, and I know them that have
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: gone home crying about cases, that have gone home sick
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: about what they see every day, and so, you know,
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: judicial accountability. It could come off as so negative, but
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: really we want to showcase the good judges. We want
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: to showcase the ones are doing their job, you know,
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: and not trying to be social media stars.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Right, So let me ask you this because you know
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of, you know, not smart when it comes
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: to all this stuff. But they can you pick which
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: judge you get in family court? I mean, if there
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: are multiple judges in a county.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: So in Louisville, how we do it? There are ten
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: and they used to be assigned by last name, which
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: was a mess because then you would know it was
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: by mother's last name, or in same sex marriage, it
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: would be petitioner's last name and you would know. And
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: so then if you drew, like a division seven, the
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: retainer would be double, or if you drew you know,
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: division four, you might be like, okay, it's going to
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: be okay today. But now they do random assignment, which
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: complicates things too. And so you have the delays. But
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: another problem is the inconsistencies. You know, ten judges in
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: Louisville will rule very differently on the same fact pattern,
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: very differently. You might have a situation with abuse allegations
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: that are very similar across the board, and one judge
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: will do equal parenting, one judge you'll do supervised visit.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: One judge will order a custodial evaluation. And so when
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: you start talking about this equal protection under the law,
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: you know, it's problematic to have the same fact pattern
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: and get dramatically different results, right, Which just.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: Goes to show you that these standards or guidelines that
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: are for the best interests of the child, you know,
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: the best interest standards, they obviously can be wildly like
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: interpreted in wildly different ways.
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, and like to go back to your point of
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: a jury trial, and that is what protects the criminal system. Yes,
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: and you know we need checks and balances. Absolute power
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: corrupts absolutely. These judges operate with little to no accountability.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: In my opinion, the Court of Appeals in Supreme Court
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: don't really have an understanding of family court because most
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: of them never practiced it. I do think we're seeing
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: a lot more Court of Appeals opinions come down on
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: family court though, where they have just they are like, y'all,
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: what are you doing. I mean the baby case that
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: I posted on where the judge removed an impent from
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: dad in open court when mom mom wanted to give
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: the baby up for adoption and the dad filed, which
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: is like unheard of and notified all the adoption agencies, like, listen,
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: if she wants to give the baby up for adoption,
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: I want the baby. So he got the baby seventeen
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: minutes after the baby was born, and they did an
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: agreed order before, and they did an agreed order after
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: that Dad would have sole custody. He wasn't seeking any
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: sort of child support. And then there was an issue
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: with his mom, he you know, and so his mom
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: got back with the mother and they went to court.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: And it's evident, in my opinion, the judge hasn't read
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: the file and they have a hearing that was canceled,
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: talk about due process, and she orders him to return
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: to the next week and hands the baby over an
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: open court.
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: That's that's nice.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: See a great example of this not being gender specific
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: happened to me into.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And the Court of Appeals issued rich
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: and essentially that is extraordinary relief, saying they issued an
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: emergency order as well returning the child, which quite frankly,
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever seen because they were just like,
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: this was a gross miscarriage of justice. And so I'm optimistic.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: I still, to some degree, want to believe in the system,
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: you know, I want to believe that the pendulum has
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: just swung too far one way and it will correct.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: I'm not optimistic. I know y'all want hope on this,
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: but I'm not optimistic until we have a dramatic shift
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: in how we view stories that happen out of family
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: court and how we elect judges and how we hold
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: judges accountable.
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, one of the things that just bothers me so
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: much about family court is that there is just no
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: accountability around perjury. So, you know, in my experiences in
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: family court, someone can literally just say whatever they want.
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: And if you're one of those people that's like, no,
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: I'm an honest person, I'm only going to tell the truth,
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: and you know, I'm just my morality is like I
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: couldn't under oath say something that wasn't true. But yet
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: there are so many people that don't have that morality,
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: and so they're just gonna say whatever they want. And
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: there's no penalty for perjury, so if you're caught lying,
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: it's like, oh, well that's at least in my audienists
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: that's yeah, you know, well.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: It's so problematic. Also, we have lawyers in there, so right,
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: I'm a good writer, so if you tell me a story,
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: I can write it down in a way that's going
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: to be the most persuasive, and that's who's writing the
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: affidavits a lot of times. Also, we have this notion
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: for judges, and I've talked to so many like therapists
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: about this that think people there's no way someone would
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: say something this crazy if there wasn't a nugget of
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: truth in it. And while that can be true on
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: one side, on the same on the flip side of
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: the coin, I guess people make stuff.
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: Obviously they don't understand mental illness, personality disorder.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: But that person is the nicest person I've ever seen.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: And you know, as an attorney you can see your
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: client sometimes, you know, I mean, especially you said on
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: the last podcast you've never seen a psychopath. I think
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: I have twice when I was practicing criminal But I still, like,
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: right now, the hair on my arms are standing up,
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: like I could feel it.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: With everything, I think I've seen a psychopath. I mean,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: I was a victim's advocate for three years and so
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: in Harlan, So I definitely think I saw one psychopath,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: like a true psychopath. It was a murder case and
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: like it was, it would make the hair on your
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: arms stand up for sure.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: And I just don't think though people realize that there
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: are so many you don't want to say bad people,
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: but honestly, to some degree, I do feel like I'm
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: one of those people that's like I'm not going to
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: lie under oath or I'm not going to go to
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: that level because it's wrong. Like there's right and wrong,
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: and some people don't have a wrong parameter.
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they don't have that moral compass and when they'll
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: do whatever they have to do to see the person
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: that they want to suffer suffer.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: And I think too, when specific people are being influenced
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: by not wanting to lose their money, you know, they'll
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: say and do whatever right. Like you know, I think
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: that maybe in Meg's case that was a big variable,
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: you know, her her ex husband didn't want to lose money,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: and so he was willing to do whatever it took
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: to not have to pay.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: And you see that a lot. I think the Denver
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: gazett is doing a lot of great reporting. Another side
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: of this that Judgy kind of wants to take on
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: is just some investigative journalism, because I don't think we
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: have that anymore. Yeah, I mean in this country as
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: a whole to some degree. But family court is so
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: hard to report on because it's nuanced, it's not clickbait,
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: it's not oh my goodness, the judge issued a zero
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: bond on a SA case. It is complicated. You have
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: to read through everything, you have to have the understanding
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: that people lot or you know. It requires work. But
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: the Denver Gazette is doing great work out of that.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: And there was that case where family court took mom's
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: kids away because of essay allegations against stepdad. Criminal court
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: gets involved and they're like, this didn't have this was fabricated.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: But the gl it came out that the gl did
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: very wealthy family. We're talking multimillion millions of dollars. Gl
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: was flown out to Hawaii to visit the kids while
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: the kids were with Dad had built over one hundred
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: thousand dollars and was like there were text messages of
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: like the gl snork like where's the snorkeling gear? But
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: Mom sued in civil court for defamation twenty one million
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: dollar verdict which goes back to year. Yes, that goes
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: back to jury trials. The jury saw it.
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the jury. That's what I'm saying. Due process, it
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: should involve a jury of our peers, right, I mean
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: it should.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: I mean I think due process legally speaking, doesn't necessarily
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: encompass a jury trial, because you can get evicted without
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: a jury. Yeah so, But and I don't necessarily know
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: that if you file emotion to you know, modify the
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: parenting schedule, that should be a jury trial situation. But
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: when you have these determinations, you have a three year
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: divorce with custody. Yeah, Texas does it, and it works
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: better in Texas than it does here. Now they have
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: some weird laws on the book still there in Texas. Well.
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's just we have to have something that
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: makes people accountable for perjuring themselves as well. You know
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: what I'm saying, there's no accountability in family court. I
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: feel like if you're in criminal court and you go
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: perjure yourself and then it comes back that you were lying,
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: you know there could be some repercussions for that, right
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: where you lied under oath and suade a jury a
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: certain way because you lied. Yeah, it's not that way
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: in family court.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: But there are just consequences in criminal court, even if
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: it's not getting prosecuted. It's that the jury won't believe you,
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: or that the judge won't believe you if you're in
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: that situation. But we don't have that. On the flip side,
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: the defense is, well, you know it's their kids, or
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: we want to move on. We want to move on,
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: We want to move on, and you can't just brush
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: everything under. I don't know that I'm a component in
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: more criminalization because I quite frankly, I think the system
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: is such a mess that if we have more hearings
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: on this, but you're right, there should be consequences.
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: There are none.
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: Yes, And I don't want to go on record saying
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: it's encouraged to lie in court. But if someone were
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: to ask me what will happen if I lie in court?
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: The answer is probably nothing. I mean, you should never
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: do it. As an officer of the court, obviously tell
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: the truth. But I've seen people lie and then you
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: have people that finally do get their kids or the
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: process ends after three years and they go into I
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: never want to talk about it again. I can't open
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: that wound. And I am curious for the kid's perspective,
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: Like how much like y'all talked a little bit about
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: the damage of children, but that abandonment component for these
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: kids that are it's just they're an object in high
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: conflict cases and we're just pulling kids out of families
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: left and right.
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: And what I don't understand is how do they get
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: it wrong in both instances where it's like, Okay, maybe
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: there is a very dangerous parent, like in my custody situation,
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: a father driving their kids drunk. A father that you
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: know is physically abusing mom, emotionally abusing mom, verbally abusing
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: mom in front of the children during exchanges, keyed my car,
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: lit things on fire, you know, in my driveway. My
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: oldest daughter wouldn't go with him for an exchange because
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: he was drunk and she could tell he was drunk.
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: But he picked up my one and a half year
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: old out of my arms, basically tossed her in the
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: back of this truck and pushed me away as I'm
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: trying to claw my way in the truck to stop it,
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: and then took off. No help from police. They wouldn't
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: even file a report because it was quote his parenting time.
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: But I'm like, he was drunk, and they're like, well,
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: we can't prove that, so no help, no help from CPS.
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: Everything's always unsubstantiated, you know. And then yet I've also
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: been involved in a case where the parent, you know,
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: shouldn't have had their child taken and did have their
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: child taken. Yeah, right, So it was like so many
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: times I've seen it, just it's always wrong, Like how
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: do they always get it wrong?
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: Christine tell us the common denominator though in those cases
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: are probably a person is a person with a personality disorder. Yeah,
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: they're involved in all of them. And so family court
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: is a playground for narcissist. Family court is a playground
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: for narcissist. It's like, oh, it doesn't work if I
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: go to CPS, so I'll go to the guardian at lightem.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: That didn't work. I want a friend of the court.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: That didn't work. I want a custodial evaluation that didn't work.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: I want a parenting coordinator that didn't work. I've got
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: a therapist, and I can pay this therapist because this
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: therapist is so good and all of the things and
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: doesn't take our insurance, so somehow the other party doesn't
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: get notified of it. And you've got fifteen sessions and
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: everybody you're just feeding, feeding, feeding that little narrative, and
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: then you may have lost, you may have been unable
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: to commit seven people. But then now you've got this therapist.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: It's like, oh my goodness.
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: And they're going to write this report that just blows
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: everything up, because.
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: All it takes is one right. It takes one of
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: these quarter pointed actors to say, oh my goodness, and
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: then all of a sudden the custody flip, and then
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: to go back to law enforcement a little bit. Law
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: enforcement are trained and it is it's civil right.
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: Right, civil I can't we can't get involved.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: Which they can't just because it's civil. So you don't
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: want from the liability standpoint of law enforcement, they're just like, WHOA,
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: you're in family court. Let family court deal with it.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: But we have too many chefs in the kitchen and
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: family court and no one's in charge.
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, nobody's in charge. I mean I remember the time
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: where my husband was ex husband was following me around
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: my daughter's softball game and just intimidating me and threatening
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: me and just I mean drunk. I could smell it
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: on him that he was drunk. And then he went
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: and he keyed my car out in the parking lot,
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: and then you know, of course I called the police
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: and then I said, please breathalyze him. I said, if
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: you breathlese him right now, you will see that he
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: is highly under the influence. And my kid it's his
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: time sharing. I'm gonna have to release my kids to
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: him in a vehicle. Breathalyze the police and they were
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: like no, they were like, we don't have probable cause,
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: Like we can't just go breathalyze him.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: And there's a different high functioning alcoholics, and I don't know, but.
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: He was very high functioning, very high functioning.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: You only know if you know the person, right, you
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: know what I mean. There are those tales and it's like,
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: you know, I don't know what the answer is other
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: than to bring awareness first, because and one thing I
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: do want to touch on and I hear this so
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: much is oh my gosh, if that happened to me,
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: I'd be in jail, and or if that happened to me,
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: I would be this And I wanted I want people
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: to think about it like, well, if he ever hit me,
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: I'd leave because we all think that, right, and then
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: it happens. And so these pe people that have been
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: traumatized by family court, like I see a lot of
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: they'll be like, oh my gosh, well, how did that
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: person go on vacation? Well what are they supposed to do?
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: Sit at home for eighteen months? Right and cry? Right?
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: You know, So we have to normalize the fact that
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: we I think, as human beings, we do not want
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: to admit bad things can happen. So therefore we kind
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: of say like we don't understand them or they're unbelievable.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: But so many people that go through family court that
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: are fighting, they they get like, oh, there has to
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: be more to it because they're not dead, and it's
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: like it's the same as people not leaving with domestic balance.
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: Human beings will survirath.
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I get it.
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: You know, we said about Meg's case because we can't
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: imagine what it would really be like to actually be
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: in that situation. I mean, I remember a situation where
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: my ex had passed out and my you know, it
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: was court ordered that my eight year old daughter at
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: the time have a phone so that, you know, if
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: he passed out or something happened, that she could call me. Well,
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: she called me. She texted me, Mom, I can't wake
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: up dad. I can't wake up dad. And my two
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: year old other little child almost too not even quite two,
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: is running around there. There's only fruit snacks in the pantry.
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: There's nothing, no other food there. They can't wake them up.
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: We had a no contact order at this time, so
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: I can't just go over there and get my kids,
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: so I have to call police. Well, he woke up
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: right before the police got there, locked all the doors,
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: closed off, closed, you know, all the curtains, turned off,
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: all the lights, hid them in a closet, and avoided
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: police for four hours and CPS marked it all unsubstantiated,
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: even though they had all the text for my daughter. Interviewed.
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: My daughter, daughter told them this what had happened. The
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: police had been there, you know, and I couldn't get
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: to my I couldn't get to my child, and of course,
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: you know, yeah, the trauma. I mean, my daughter has
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: been in years of therapy and luckily she is a
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: healthy and happy and thriving young girl. I mean, the
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: therapy has been incredibly beneficial to her and she she's
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: never really had any major problems, thank goodness. But it's
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: it was something that she lives with, right, Like I
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: remember that night that I couldn't wake my dad up.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: And she never should have had to gone through that, obviously.
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: And it's not as though though there wasn't a government entity.
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: But there was a judge cared because CPS said it
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: was unsubstantiated, and so I looked like the bully.
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: Well, I wonder if you were to sit down with
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: that judge now what they would say after he I.
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: Would love to sit down with her. I would her
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: to sit down with her and look her face to
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: face and say, do you know that because you didn't
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: follow your own local rules that and you gave an
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: exception and after exception after exception, that this is what happened.
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: And I'm not blaming her for his death. He he
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: you know, did the drugs and did the alcohol. But
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: could I have maybe gotten testing that maybe could have
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: sent him into rehab again, or could have done something.
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: Family courts failing, and that's what it's failing, over and over.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: If I had one success story, and I do have
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: success stories from criminal cos you have people that got
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: caught up in the system. And like I had someone
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: on my TikTok yesterday. It was like, Hey, it's Amanda,
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: and she was like, I've been sober eight years, I've
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: paid my house off. And I mean when I was practiced,
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: Amanda was in and out of jail for a year
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: and she got sober. She was so sweet, you know.
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: But that was at the height of the drug epidemic
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: in eastern Kentucky. But there are success stories after success
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: stories in criminal court, sure, And I don't know that
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: I can go back in my decade in family law
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: and really be like, oh my god, the system made
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: anything better, which should terrify people. And I talked to
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: a lot there's a lot of US lawyers out there
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: that know it's not working. It's a very small group
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: of people that are these focs and gails because a
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: lot of people wouldn't touch that with a ten foot poll,
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean. That's not I didn't become
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: a lawyer to write a report and not meet anybody, right,
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like that's just a kind
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: of you know, to each their own, But that's a
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: bizarro pathway for a lawyer to go and or custodio
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: of I Like, they're not healthy anybody, They're just like.
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: Right, psychologists don't make that much money like without doing that.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: So I'm assuming clinical psychologists that are even if they
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: don't take insurance, they're not making anywhere near that amount
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: of money. So it probably seems like a very lucrative avenue,
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: you know, if they have the moral compass to actually
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: do it right. But I'm not saying that they all do.
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm not gonna lie. There are so many
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: weirdos in my profession, so many weird people, so many
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: weird people. And I am a social psychologist. I'm not
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: a clinical psychologist. But you know, of course I ran
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: a clinical psychology program. I trained alongside clinical psychologists. You
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: want to talk about weird people, there's some really freaking
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: weird people. Yeah, and they're making decisions about people there
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: of themselves. There's something up right, And you have.
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: This family court has created an avenue for psychologists and
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: lawyers to kind to flip roles, like lawyers think they're
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: psychologists and psychologists think they're lawyers.
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: Right, like they're you know, just like what I was
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: telling you about the FOC and this clear case of alienation,
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: and they were like, hmm, I'm puzzled why a child
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: would say this in front of mom and then get
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: in a forensic interview and say, uh, well, I just
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: had to say it to make mom happy. But I
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: don't know how that happened. That's just weird, hmm. I
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: guess there was just a little miscommunication. I mean literally,
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: that's what the determination was. And it's like, no, if
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: a child is saying some very exaggerated claim and then
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: goes in and says, well, I had to say it
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: to make my mom happy, that should raise a red
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: flag around alienation.
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: You know. And I don't know the specifics of your case,
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: but I almost don't want to give difference because we
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: have Google. I mean, you can google and what that is.
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: And also if that's what you find, you shouldn't be
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: an FFOC ever, again, like it doesn't mean you're.
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: A bad person per se, Like it's just ignorance.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: Well yeah, it's like, I'm a good person, but do
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: you want me changing your break lines? Like I know
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: my best shock, I watch you?
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: And so why is a judge allowed to appoint an
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: attorney that is making a decision on whether alienation is
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: happening or not?
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: And that was a Supreme Court case and then now
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: it's in our family court rules. And I do think
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: the judges realize, like during COVID, that they could do
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: all of these appointments, Like I went to court for
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: the first time and like maybe a year, year and
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: a half in person just to watch because then I'm
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: gonna start doing that more frequently. But it was shocking
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: to me how bad it has gotten even in the
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: last two years. But there are so many cases that
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: there will be an gal and an FOC and two lawyers.
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: So you're like, let's just step back for a second
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: and just like ask a kindergartener this, like should there
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: be four lawyers involved in a divorce where you work
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: at ups?
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: Sen or you're a teacher, you know right now and
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: then you're you're gonna go bankrupt.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: We are bankrupting families, we are taking away children's education,
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: We're traumatizing children. It's like, and I don't I struggle
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: with the notion because I don't believe that everyone's bad.
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: But I do think the road to hell is paved
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: with good intentions and there are a lot of well
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: intentioned people that believe what they are doing is for
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: a better cause. And it's really hard when you're in
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: a system because the incremental changes happen over time, and
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: you know, it's just it's the way we've always done everything,
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: or it's the way we do things, or you know,
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: we have the same yale that gets appealed every single time.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: So a nice person, right, So I want to know,
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: besides bringing awareness to it, which I think is huge
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: in terms of the law itself, where does the reform begin?
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: Where do you start?
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: And it's hard. I studied under Justice Scalia in law
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: school and separation of powers course in Ireland. If you're
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: familiar with Scalia, he was known for his descent. So
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: I'm like twenty two sitting in Ireland studying abroad, like
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: reading forty seven page descents. You know, but he was
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: an extraordinary human being. But we do have separation of power,
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: so the judiciary supposed to protect itself and it's supposed
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: to people that our judges are supposed to have reverence
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: for the bench. And some of the old judges they
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: were they were so amazing, Like if you'd see them
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: in public, Hay judge. You know these judges now I
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: call them by their first name. It's like no. But
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: I think we need to have some of the laws
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: need to change. As far as the FOC's, I'm very concerned,
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: Like in California they allow taxpayer focs and gal's essentially
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: minors council, which right. They also do not have cameras
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: in courtrooms. So I think a task force, if the
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: legislative measure, would go a long way. I want judges
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: to have time sheets. You've lost your privilege. You got
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: to be at the courthouse by nine and you can't
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: leave till five. Bummer, You're on the taxpayer dollar.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: You know, right exactly you signed up for this.
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: And it is so apparent in both of my cases
• 53:53
  Speaker 4: that these judges just didn't know what was going on.
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: I know, you haven't read this. You're flipping through it
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: act and scrambling and then continuing it, yeah, and delaying it.
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: They're so unprepared. It's shocking, and I really think with
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: Judge just getting this information out there. I'm working with
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: Susan Bassie. If you don't follow her too out of California,
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: she does. She's not a big TikToker, but she does
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: true investigative journalism. But when she posted the baby case
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: that I did, she had people call her to be like,
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: thank god I didn't go to family court.
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: You were right.
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: And I had a good friend of mine that was
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: contemplating divorce about a year ago, and you know, beautiful children,
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: and there was a pit in my stomach and I
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: was just like, they're going to take away your kids' education.
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: Like I know what's going to happen. They're both good parents,
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: you know they have issues, but love their kids, equal parenting,
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: Split the assets according to income. You're paying a little
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: bit of maintenance and move on. But attorneys will bill
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: fifty sixty thousand dollars for that, which.
• 54:57
  Speaker 4: Is the girls both right. I spent my entire retirement
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: on my custody battle. My entire everything that I had
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: banked away from in retirement since the moment I started
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: working was gone. I drained my entire retirement and this
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: recent court battle not to say whether it was family
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: quart or not. Cost fifty thousand dollars that stemmed from
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: a heinous false allegation against my child that never happened.
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: That there was not one shred of evidence or proofs
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: that had happened. And thank god, everybody that was in
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: the investigation with my daughter saw immediately like this is
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: so bogus, right, Like this didn't happen. The supposed victim
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: said it didn't happen. We had camera evidence that it
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: didn't happen. The story changed so many times that it
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: was clear that there was a lack of consistency in
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: the allegation. I mean, there was everything on our side.
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: So at least my daughter was very protected because the
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: police didn't even open a case. They're like, there's no
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: we can't open a case because there's no evidence, there's
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: no crime. The victim is even saying there's no crime.
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: And so we see that a little. But in terms
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: of the follow up of Okay, well what do we
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: do about this false allegation and like the maliciousness behind it,
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: there's nothing you can do, and that the diner tried,
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: but there's like not much you can do about that.
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And then but then you're talking about being in
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: another lawsuit. But that Denver case when the jury heard it,
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: came back twenty one million dollars for defamation and other
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: civil actions. Oh get that that mom still did not
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: have her children right like literally there was still a
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: custodial evaluator that said she shouldn't be and so crazy.
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so one court of found the truth and in
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: family course.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: Well, and no amount of money is worth not having
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: your children.
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: So I would sell everything I owned, yes, yeah, and
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: they I would do with Meg. And Meg's still sitting
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: here because we just recorded her beforehand, and so she's
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: she's getting to watch this episode. But I would probably
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: do exactly what she's doing. I would quit my job.
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: I would learn the.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: Lots everything I possibly could.
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: I would sue that, excuse my language, the fuck out
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: of everybody that I could possibly sue in order to
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: get my kids back, and I would not I would
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: be on a rampage and I would not stop until
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: my kids were back in my arms again.
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: Oh, I mean the pro say movement. I have pro
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: say litigants that follow me that that becomes their sole life,
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: as it would like, and they will email me legal
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: arguments and like, I have a group of lawyers that
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: like I should. They're like their team Christine, but they
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: still practice, you know, so I'll be like this pro
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: say litigant had this argument, and I'm like, I love it,
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, because you take someone's kids
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: and that will be their sole factor. And it's like
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: with the criminal system, at least there's finality. Even if
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: you have to go to prison for eight years. It's like,
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: I'm going to do my time, I'm gonna get better,
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: I'll be able to see my kids. But there is
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: no reprieve from family court. And I got divorced, I
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: mean we didn't have children, think goodness, and we resolved everything.
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: But I remember I was a divorce attorney at the time,
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: and I remember being like, that's a person that knows
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: everything about it, right, you.
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: Know everything about you, and they can use that to.
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: And they can lie, yeah, and torture, and so you're
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: like I would get an email from my lawyer and
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: it would be that heightened oh my gosh, and I
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: knew the answer, but it's that whatever Psychologically that.
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: A rush shight or flight response.
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: Where you're just like, oh, I want to hurt somebody
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: or how is this happening? And so I do think
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: the system. I think, first off, if we have judges
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: that work full time, it will help if they read motions,
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: if they know they can't do worse than what they're doing.
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: I do think we need some component of AI. Now
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: I'm super hesitant about some of that, but I do
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: think if we could compare these orders, we'll be able
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: to see clearly how across the board it is. Also,
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: if we have time, let's touch on those gag orders,
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: because that's got to stop.
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: You know, the very first thing I signed in my
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: custody order was like, you can't say anything about this
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: on social media, in print, anywhere, or I will drop
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: you as a client.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: Well, there are two issues there right. One The first
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: is an attorney saying that is very bizarre to me.
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: So the attorney client privilege is held by the client. Okay,
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: I don't own that privilege. The only person that can
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: tell me that they can waive that and it survives death.
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: The only person that can wave that is the client.
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: So if a client wants to put every email that
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: I ever sent them on Reddit and talk bad about me,
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: well one, I don't care. But two there's nothing I
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: would ever do about that. Like, then there's nothing that
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: would prevent them from being able to do it. It's
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: their privilege. I'm the professional. There is a dramatic power imbalance.
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: Attorneys have so much power and people that have never
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: practiced outside of family law don't realize the power that
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: we have when it comes to family law clients. Like
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: if I were to tell a client, you'll get your
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: kid back if you go run down the street naked,
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: they do it. I mean they listen to everything I say.
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: And coming from the criminal world, it was so shocking
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: to me because in the family world, they're asking you
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: all of these questions and it's like, I'm a lawyer.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: I have no idea where you should go to daycare,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: you know. I mean, I'm twenty nine years old. I
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: don't even have a child, like and so. But that
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: in my is red flag, Like I don't like that,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: especially because lawyers are constantly asking for Google reviews. In
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: this world, a lot of lawyers are trying to be
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: social media influencers. But that hurts my belly. But two,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: the bigger issue is the judges doing these gag orders.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: Gag orders the purpose of a gag order is to
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: protect the outcome of the case. And what I mean
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: by that is, if you're going to go to jury trial,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: you want to untainted jury pool. So that's why we
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: have gag orders. Okay, whoa OJ Simpson, y'all can't talk
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: about this because it could tain a potential juror or
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: Karen Reed, y'all can't talk about it. They're scarcely used.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: I still do feel that they're problematic from a First Amendment,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: but I understand the point because impartial, fair juris that's
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: the foundation of the United States of America. But where
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: the judge is the trier of fact, the finder of fact,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: what why are they trying to gag you outside of
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: that courtroom? Because one, they should never hear a single
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: thing that's happening outside of that courtroom because it's ex
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: partey and two they're the ones making the decision. They,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: in my opinion, are insane. I have seen some I
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: saw a gag order once Judge Christine Ward out of Louisville,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: Kentucky ordered a mom to not post anything pertaining to
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: her minor child. Now, as a lawyer, I'm like, well,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: what if she put a picture up there while she
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: was pregnant. That's pertaining to your minor child. That is
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: so broad, so encompassing. What if and I know nothing
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: about this case other than like the order, but I
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: don't know the parties. I just stumbled across it during
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: my research. But what if the mom was friends with
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: the child on Facebook or saw the mom's Facebook and
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: saw mom to lead all the pictures of her? What's
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: that going to do to right? So in what world
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: is that in the best interest? And also, judge, what's
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: trying to hide?
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: You know, I think that's some part of what's going
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 4: on here. No, we don't want you talking about this
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: case on social media or you know, like in Meg's case,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: having a private Facebook support group that's a private group
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: where she's talking about what's been happening to her. Yeah,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: because they don't want to be exposed.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: They're being exposed.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: And it's so bizarre that they don't want criticism. I mean,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: I don't love criticism, don't get it wrong. But at
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: the same time you signed You didn't just sign up
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: to be a judge. You fought for it. You ran
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: a lot of times these judges are spending one hundred
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: thousand dollars for a campaign where they're going to make
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: one hundred and sixty, which is bizarre to me, you know.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: And I think that's another thing Judge's going to look
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: at as as far as why are there people who
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: have millions of dollars and spend hundreds of thousands of
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: dollars to get a job that pays that that is
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: a desire for power.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a desire for power. There's no weather explanation
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: behind it, unless you know, you're just someone that wants to,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: you know, change the world so much. But has a
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: family court judge, I don't know.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: And I do think we have good There are good
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: family court judges in the world, you know, But I do,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: you know, But well, I struggle with it. You know.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: I've made a hard stance about our family court bench
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: that I will not say any that I think they
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: all need to be held to account because they don't
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: hold each other accountable. And that is almost more dangerous.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: You know. It's like the person that sees a bad
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: act that doesn't report it to protect the robe who's worse,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: you know, right, And I struggle with that, and I
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: really do struggle to think of a family court judge
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: that I'm willing to say something positive about the bar
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: Association can say do with that what they will, But
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: you know, I struggle because just the demeanor alone is inappropriate.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: If you watch your dentist and it's like, sit down, right,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: how didn't you do this?
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 4: You're gonna you'd never go back what has happened? I mean,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: I remember gosh, one of the judges in one of
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 4: the cases saying, if you think that I'm going to
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: make it ruling today about this, this, and this, when
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: you haven't even and my attorney wasn't even asking for
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 4: that today. She just wanted to enter in some evidence, right,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: and it was like, here's you know what's going on.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 4: Here's an update to the case. That's why we're here
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: to do an update. And she cut her off before
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: she could even get anything out, and just dreamed her
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: a new one. And I think and then and then
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: she was like the judge, that's not what I'm trying
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 4: to do here, right, And then she was like, oh, okay.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: It's so infuriating, and I just want to get the videos, Like,
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: let's just get the videos out there. I think if
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: that was out there, we'd get new judges. On the
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: bench because we're elected here in Kentucky, and I think
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: that would be a start if we got one judge removed,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: or if we had one judge get an election flip.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: Because what happens in particular in Louisville and what happens
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: in small towns to a different degree, it happens there's flip.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: There's cons and pros on both sides. But in Louisville
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: there's ten judges. And so if you want to run
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: for family court, you got a family law practice, you
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: challenge one of them, Well, your client, you better be
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: prepared for all prepared for all your clients to pay.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: And so they ran unopposed last time because people can't
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: take the loss, they can't afford a campaign and then
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: know their clients are going to be retaliated against. That's why,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: that's that's why I left the practice of law, because
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: I'm not the practice. But I left family court because
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: of a judge that xpartayed me. We had a whole
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: thing about it. The judge had to recuse. It was
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: a horrific case. I'm not going to get into the details,
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: and one day I will tell it, but I had
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: to go before her two weeks later on a different motion,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: something so simple, one family, one court, right, this case
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 3: should have been in front of another judge that had
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: hurt everything else, and in front of all of the
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: attorneys everybody. She was just like nope, like just dead
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: in the eye. And I was like, I'm done, right
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: because I'm not gonna have my client suffer, right because
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: and it was, you know, a certain level of trauma
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: for me wanting to be a lawyer my entire life
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: and first generation attorney, you know, Like, but I didn't
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: become a lawyer to be a good little girl and
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: behave and turn a blind eye to injustice. And so
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: I took some time off. I took a lot of
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: time just to be like, what what has happened? Process it?
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: And then, like I said, I got back into this
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: because I thought it was just the Louisville judges and
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: then it's all of them. But in the small towns
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: you have the family court judge that knows Comwall attorney,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: county attorney, you know.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: And so that's what happened to me. Yeah, I got
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: home cooked.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: I mean they were all reven elbows, and I mean
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: I often joke like it was me against city Hall
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: like it was.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: I had no chance.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: Now, I ain't scared of much, but I'm scared of
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: Eastern Kentucky. Yeah, I'll tell you that right now.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: I mean not just Eastern Kentucky like Harlan, the armpit
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: of the States. And yeah, I mean, I'll get into
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: my story later. It's still not as anywhere close to Meggs.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: But I got real roaded, no doubt. I got real roaded,
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: and it was scary, and it really felt like it
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: was me against the entire County of Harlan in terms
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: of everyone that held any type of political power.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: And they don't think that in small towns. It's so bizarre.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: The same families have run it for so long. It
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: was such a culture shop for me to go to
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: Eastern Kentucky. We had a judge whose husband had already
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: been to federal prison, and then there were all these
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: allegations about him. He was a former prosecutor. Well after
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: I left, he went to prison for trafficking heroin. So
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: clearly there were some truth to those allegations. I mean,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: he pled guilty to it, but everyone in the community
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: talked about it. But they were held to such esteem
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: that no one would challenge them. We don't have that
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: in Louisville as much.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: There's a cultural I'd call it pride. I think, you
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: know in southeastern Kentucky, where you know, you protect your
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: own and it's it's real, it's it's a it's I
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: tell I tell people.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: All the time.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: I'm like, you drive two and a half hours south
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: of here, it's like a whole different world. It's a
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: whole different world.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 4: It's a completely different world. You drive through Lexington and
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 4: drive to southeastn South Harlan Techy, you won't even recognize that.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: The people, I mean, the people are different.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: And don't get me wrong, like I have wonderful things
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: that I can say about Harlan and the people of
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: Harlan County. I met some of the most wonderful people
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: that I've ever known in my life there. But I
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: also dealt with some of the most horrific people of
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: my life. And you know, the rock bottom of my
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: life there because of what those people did. And it
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: was because you know, again, my ex had deep, deep,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: deep roots. I mean, you're talking his mom's moms, moms, moms,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: and then his dad's dad's you know, I mean, I'm
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: talking it went deep and so I mean, for me,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: it was just a matter I just threw in the towel,
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: you know. I eventually just waved the white flag of surrender.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: But well, I'll get into that later. But it's a
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: real thing and it happens a lot.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: Well, I think that's what's going to be shocking because
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: we and I do have task to eastern Kentucky. But
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: we're gonna get videos. We're doing all the judges in Kentucky.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 4: So tell me a little bit about that, Like, can
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 4: I just go into the courtroom and just video with
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 4: my phone? Can anybody do it? Or is it just
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: you because you're a member of the bar.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: So I'm hesitant to say that you can do that
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: now the judge obviously we've got a TikTok judge that
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: selfie recorded, you know, but everything in Kentucky is recorded,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: which is good, and so you can request the tapes.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: There's a cost associated with requesting those, which is what
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: we'd like to do. I mean, we want to build
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: a platform where we can request tapes from every judge
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: so you can just see, you know what I mean.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: And I think people will be shocked to see how
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: court's conducted. In eastern Kentucky. And I think these judges
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: in eastern Kentucky and western Kentucky, once they're on a national.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 4: Please Central Kentucky, please please, please please.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: And once they're on a national platform like they their
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: behavior will immediately change.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 4: You know, I just said this beforehand. I said, you
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 4: know what I hope has more power than being a
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 4: family court judge in a county is somebody with a
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: two million person platform like me. I would like to
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 4: think that that holds more power and that we can
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: get more done because we have a bigger voice, and
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 4: we can expose what they're.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: Doing and bring awareness.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: Bring awareness for sure.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 3: And we will grow. I mean I think once this hits,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: you know, I think we're six months away from really
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: the pendulum like swinging into where we're in a lot
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: of states.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is a I mean it's a beautiful resource.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: I mean that has never existed and.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: These judges are so For example, why is your judge
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: not on Wikipedia?
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: I mean your state rep is right? If your state
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: rep is on TikTok, dance into sexy red drop blow
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: let that you know what breathe, you better believe their
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: opponent's going to run an ad on it. But our
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: judges are just doing that like it's Tuesday.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but then nobody wants to run against them because
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 4: then they're going to be black balled.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: Well, I think that it's twofold. If they thought they
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: could win, they might, But these judges control the calendar
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: as well, and that's why that full time component in
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: the accountability because they can cancel to go to campaign events.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: But if public if there is a niche for somebody
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: to be able to get in and win, you know,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 3: I think they'll do it. And I think time's up
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: on these judges. I it's shocking to meet literally the
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: sweatshirt which I love and I just got embroidered. Yeah,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: when I went there, I was like, oh, hey, I
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: never met this person. I'm like, I'm Christine. I'm talking
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: about family court reform and he's like, well, I got
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: a story for you.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: Hear that everybody does.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 3: Literally I've changed hairdressers and they have a story, you know,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: my dentist holding me down like you're not going to
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: you know, And I'm just like, you can't go anywhere
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: because it's affected everyone.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: Which makes me sad too because it just kind of
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: shows you the amount of divorce and just amount of
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: broken you know, homes and families that there are. But
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: you know, again, I think one I know, Doctor Hinsley's
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: mission is to save the family unit, you know, and.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 4: Whatever form, if we can save it, I will save it, all.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: Right, I've said it. I've told her a million times.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: If you can save the family unit, you can save
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: the world. Because this, this whole series that we're doing
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: on Family Court is a result of the family unit
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: being broken. And so, you know, I think it just
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: comes full circle in terms of what our mission is
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: and being able to bring awareness to these things, but
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: overall to bring awareness to what love really is right,
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: and what love really looks like, and what you know,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: godly love looks like.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 4: Because nobody wants to end up in this system. Nobody
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 4: wants to end up in Family Court. And I'll say
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: it again, my divorce was the best thing that ever
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 4: happened to me. I do it all again a million
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 4: times over to land where I am right now. But
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 4: it was awful. It drains your money, it rains your soul, and.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: It really affects your children, it does it, you know.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm a product with the victims I'm a
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: product of divorce, and I'm a product of a divorce
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: that happened later in life, you know, when I was
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: nearly eighteen years old, and I still have pain and
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: scars from that, you know, and so it and it
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: doesn't go away. And of course, obviously no one goes
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: through life unscathed. But if if I could have prevented
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: that from my own child, obviously I would have. And
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: if I could have prevented the pain that came from
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: the fight, you know, I would have.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: But we're also not just talking about divorce and custody
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: with family court, and I think, but I think a
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: lot of people don't understand, like we have the substance
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: abuse issues that we have in this country. There are
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: so many people that go through family court taking nieces,
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 3: nephew's grandparents, I mean grandparents taking grandkids. Yeah, yeah, and
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: they're getting it wrong in those cases. Like you are
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: much more likely to touch family court than any other
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: court it in our country. You know, you're not likely
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: to be evicted, I mean perhaps traffic court. Right.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah. That was one of the biggest motivators for my
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: husband adopting my girls. For me was you know, because
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 4: in their eyes. He is dad, right, He's raising them
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 4: as if they're his biological children. If we didn't do
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 4: the legal paperwork, nothing would change. But I think one
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 4: of my biggest fears was, well, what if something happens
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: to me and then my ex's mother, who's very much
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 4: involved in at least still my youngest daughter's life, she
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 4: could go after custody. I mean even though if I,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: you know, said I want him to go to my brother, well,
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 4: my brother lives in a whole nother state and she
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 4: could probably prove a lot more involvement than my brother,
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 4: and she could prove, you know, a lot of things.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 4: And I was like, no, I want this solid where
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 4: if something happens to me, they go to my husband
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 4: and he's going to continue to raise them as dad.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, and people don't realize how bad it is. And
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: I you know, I think knowledge is power, and I
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: just want people to understand. You know, if there's one
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: thing you can take away from me, is that it
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: can happen to you, like it can happen to you.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: No one thinks it can happen to them, and it
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: can happen to you.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, people's lives are changed overnight. I mean I have clients.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 4: You know, I have a pretty pricey individual coaching rate,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: and there's reasons for that, because if I didn't, i'd
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 4: be booked out six months. I've booked out like a
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: month and a half right now. I'm even at that rate.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 4: But they will book an appointment with me because they're like,
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: I just found out that my spouse is living a
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 4: completely different life and I didn't see this coming, not
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 4: for I didn't see any of it coming. Like I've
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 4: had the rug pulled out from underneath me. I am
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 4: completely shocked by this. I'm going to be divorcing. But
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 4: you know, I didn't think this was what ever happen
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 4: to me? Right, so it can happen to you.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, And there's I mean, it doesn't matter
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: socioeconomic status, none of that matters.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 4: It doesn't matter, you know I think that.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: I'm just I'm just so glad that you are here,
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: that you're bringing awareness to this so other than Judgy
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: would which will be live and active once this airs.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 4: And just to be sorry to go ahead, go ahead,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 4: I'm very interrupt you today because I'm all passionate.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I just wanted to for you to tell
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: our listeners world that they could find you.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 3: I'm Kentucky, Christine on TikTok, It's Miller Time Louisville on
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 3: Instagram and YouTube, and then Judge will have all the
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 3: socials and it's Judge dash Wise.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 4: Okay, okay, and Judge Just to kind of what I
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 4: wanted to interrupt about with just kind of like again,
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 4: tell us remind our listeners of the mission and why
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 4: it's so important and what they will fill out on
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 4: Judge if they go. So.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 3: Judicial accountability is coming and that's what Judge's going to do.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: Judge's going to judge the judges, like the judges have
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 3: been judging everyone else it and we want your stories.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 3: The goal is ultimately it will be an app. We
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 3: are going to have the capability to have attorney verified
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: reviews anonymously. We will have reviews of litigants, and then
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: we're going to have a court watching platform where you
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: can watch and then review. And so I want everyone
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: in the nation at the end of this, but I
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 3: want everyone in Kentucky to be able to see their
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 3: judge pull orders from their judge, to see how they're
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 3: judge orders. I want them to be able to watch
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: tapes to see how the judge behaves in court. And
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: I want to have a place where you can get
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: Court of Appeals opinions, Supreme Court opinions on that judge
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: because they are, in my opinion, they're all over the
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 3: place on the Internet and hard to find because they
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 3: don't want you to know. So this will just be
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 3: a website for judicial accountability because it is pastime.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 4: You need transparency because bad things only happen in the darkness,
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 4: and how you bring them to the light, then the
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 4: bad things stop happening.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: Amen, Absolutely well, thank you so much.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 4: Christine, thank you all so much, so amazing.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: It's been so enlightening and so wonderful to listen to you.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: So of course, go check out Christine at Christine Kentucky,
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: Christine Kentucky.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: Christine on TikTok.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, and then Millard It's Miller Time Louisville, Miller Time.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: It's Miller Time Louisville on Instagram. And then of course,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: if you have a story today, please go see Judge
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: that's Judge dash Hy dot com.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 4: Right, Yes, that's right, and tell your story, your story
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 4: that I saw it. You can just like put your
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 4: first name only, or it can be like, Okay, that's amazing,
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 4: because yeah, some people are still probably in the midst
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 4: of their battle and they don't want, you know, of course,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 4: to be retaliated against. And so that this is such
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 4: important work that you're doing, Christine, and I know that
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 4: you know you're growing your platform. Please go follow her, guys,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 4: because we need to link arms here and we need
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 4: to get reform for all the parents all that have
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 4: suffered and all of the children that are going to
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 4: continue to suffer because there is no transparency, no accountability,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 4: and no consistency in family court.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, so thank you, and of course thank you to
• 1:18:50
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  Speaker 2: I'm excited because obviously, you know, I have a college
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  Speaker 2: Earth for all you do. Of course, for our listeners,
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  Speaker 2: you can go to cozyearth dot com and put in
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  Speaker 2: promo code love Dog for forty percent off your entire purchase,
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  Speaker 2: which is so very generous, So thank you very much,
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  Speaker 2: please go check out our Patreon's account. We now have
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  Speaker 2: a Patreon's account at patreons dot com. Slash the lovedt
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  Speaker 2: podcast and thank you because we have our first Patreon
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  Speaker 2: Carissa Nicole, Thank you so much.
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  Speaker 4: Carissa, Yes, thank you for being a super fan.
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  Speaker 1: We appreciate you so much.
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  Speaker 4: It's just so exciting.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course you get all the perks of
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  Speaker 2: being a member for on our Patreon account, so please
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  Speaker 2: go check that out while you're there. And until next time, peace, love,
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  Speaker 2: and perspective.