Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Overt and Covert Dissociation

Transcript

Overt and Covert Dissociation · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Okay. So there's something that we have seen a lot of people talking about online at different times, talking about covert and overt. And at some levels, it's kind of obvious about overt systems or overt alters or overt switching. It means people can know that's what's happening from the outside, like that people notice, that there's enough differences between people or between you and normal people, singleton people, however you wanna say it, people without DID, that it's overt enough for you with DID that other people can notice something is up. And then covert is not exactly hiding it, but sort of passing in a way, and so people not realizing that that's what's going on.
• 1:52
  So there's been a lot general discussion lately, and I just thought, oh, okay. I've not really thought about it in application to myself, but now it's come up in a new way. So for example, while we know internally who is who and who's doing what, not everyone who interacts with us knows that we have DID. Right? And even friends who know we dissociate some may not always know who is who or what's going on or that there was a switch or who they're talking to.
• 2:27
  But friends who know a lot about DID or know your system really well, or when you explicitly tell them who is out, then that is definitely more overt, meaning, like, more obvious or more directly presenting or expressing, depending on if you're talking about it from an observer point of view or from the lived experience point of view. So most systems, generally speaking, are very covert. The whole point of that is because it's about survival and some systems, like at the beginning of therapy and while it's happening, there are some systems or some parts where the DID is so covert, they don't even know what's happening. Right? Like, went through that where some of us knew and some of us didn't.
• 3:19
  And then there's also sort of the layers where they can have what's called passive influence, where you can't really where you're not really choosing to do something a certain way or say something a certain way, but someone is doing such passive influence that you are sort of influenced by what they're saying or doing, and it kind of comes out of you. It might come out of you in a feeling or in words or the way you behave. That has sometimes happened with us as we start to build some co consciousness or some increased communication inside, where sometimes there may be like internal conversations that actually happen out loud. So technically, therapy is making us crazier. I just want to say that there are some ways that it sort of influences others.
• 4:15
  And so as things that were covert become more overt, then there are different kinds of changes. But also something that's more overt is when there's just more of a dramatic difference on the outside between people. So like there's a big difference between doctor e while she's at work or presenting somewhere or out in the field as they stay when we're traveling for work than when, like, I'm on a date with a husband. And so if you saw us in both situations, there would be an over distinct difference because we're such different people. On the other hand, there are some littles, like we have Sarah and John that are so much alike that unless you know what their function is and their role is and who you're talking to, you might not notice which one is which from the outside.
• 5:11
  I can see them on the inside, which again, I know hits a crazy point, but that's just how it works. And so the other piece is that it's more overt when there's obvious signs or like obvious switching. I don't know what that looks like from the outside. So I can't talk about it because I have no idea. I think maybe there's like YouTube videos maybe that talk about it.
• 5:36
  I don't know. I don't even know what to refer you to, but I can't see myself from the outside. And so I don't even know what people see. Or like, how does the therapist the therapist can look at us or talk to us and know who is who. I don't know how that works.
• 5:51
  Sometimes we get caught by the husband and he can figure it out. But most of the time, he just kinda goes with the flow. And so in a way, I kinda prefer that because we can be, at least for me, we can be kinda more fluid and just respond to what is happening, which is how DID works rather than like, we've had relationships or friendships before where only a certain part was allowed to participate, and that felt really oppressive. And so it's important that we're able to just be ourselves. But the more selves of us that someone knows or is familiar with, then the more overt things become because because you're getting to know the individual parts.
• 6:33
  Does that make sense? But then there's also kind of like a cycling between them, overt to covert or covert to overt, like it can kind of change. So for example, parenting. Right? Like, it's almost always m who goes to pick up the children from school.
• 6:52
  But when we're playing with the children, it might be John Mark or even one of the younger littles depending on what we're playing with. Or me, if we're playing, like, five alive and it's getting all intense and I really wanna win, then it's gonna be me or Jean Marc depending on the snacks or who wants to beat the husband the most. Sometimes we can almost be there together. Like, this is a new thing, and that's super trippy and weird. But that's a lot of switching that's happening that's appropriate to the context and in a way that is safe both for us and the outside children, but that the outside children are not aware of, but the husband might be aware of or might not be aware of.
• 7:36
  The therapist would definitely notice if she were there with us. And so it can kind of fluctuate a little bit, but it also depends on the context. And there are some settings or contexts where it really matters. Like if you are hospitalized because one part is stuck out or really struggling for a certain safety issue or a certain time of year or something really big that's a big issue, then there may be more of an overt presentation or overt switching between parts because different parts are getting what they need or trying to avoid them. When you're in therapy and specific ones come out front to talk in therapy or to share something or to work with a therapist, then that can be more overt.
• 8:23
  Some systems know how to control that. Like, they can plan for that and function in that way. I don't know how they do that. We're not that far yet. We had a therapist once who like, our first therapist after the parents died, who's the one who told husband about DID.
• 8:45
  She was amazing and had some really good strengths, but she was the one also that we had san tray we didn't get to process, and she wouldn't close her door so we couldn't talk. And then since we didn't talk, she did other things. And so it just kind of was a snowball of not working. And then I think it hurt her feelings that it didn't work. But I'm there for therapy, so that's not my job, except I wanted to just be kind.
• 9:11
  I don't know. That was hard. That's a different story. I can't even think about it right now. But one thing she did trying to be supportive of our system was to, like, make out a schedule of our appointments, and she literally wrote down on the paper who was supposed to come for each appointment, trying to make it fair so that everyone got a turn.
• 9:30
  That was crazy sauce. Like, I don't even know what that was. It was wishful thinking and it was very intention. That's what it was. It was authentic and genuine because I know this woman and I know that what she was trying to do was the right thing, but it's not at all how our system works.
• 9:47
  Like, we don't know how to do that. I cannot even get in the building or barely get there on the right day at the right time. Like those things are still really hard for us, for anyone in the body to be in the right place at the right time. And we've made huge progress for that. And the ordeal of going to the therapist four hours away was good practice for that.
• 10:12
  So we've come a long way, but I don't know how to do that to follow a schedule like that. If you are functioning well enough and that is helpful in a way that you're able to share and take turns, then that's fantastic. But also, we're still so in a place of triggered by our environment or things around us that I don't know how we would not respond to those things. Like, there's certainly there are certainly different things that everybody needs to be working on. And when we can't even get into therapy because our family on the outside is so big, it makes sense that the same thing is happening on the inside, that we can't get to therapy.
• 10:58
  We, everyone inside, can't get to therapy because everyone wants a turn. That's part of why treatment takes so long. But I don't know how to just everyone rotates and we stop working on this and now work on this. And like, I think we're just more topical than that. I don't know.
• 11:17
  It's like we have a trigger or something we're finally brave enough to talk about in therapy, but it takes weeks and months and years to like just get all the pieces of that one thing out. And it's like a list of a hundred billion thousand things. That's what it feels like. So I don't know how that's worked for other people, but because she knew to do that, it tells me it worked for somebody. So good for them for advocating for themselves and good for the therapist for thinking that that was a good idea and trying it, but it was not our thing.
• 11:48
  It could not work. But it would be a time when DID presentation can be more overt when things finally come out in therapy. It can also be more overt when you have safe friends who know, like I talked about, or other friends with DID. When you're with someone else who has DID, first of all, it's a trippy, trippy experience, usually in a good way. You do have to be very careful about safety just because everyone has different issues and because not everyone in the world is safe.
• 12:20
  It's like deaf people, they always try to say, oh, this person is deaf, and so you're deaf, so you're gonna be good friends. That's not true. I don't know that person. That doesn't mean I wanna be friends with them. We have terrible social skills, you guys.
• 12:34
  Between anxiety and just introversion, we're just not good friends. But if you have safe, good friends, then being out with them, so to speak, would be a time to be more overt, even if it's happening by default. Like, we now have one good friend that I feel like if anybody showed up, she would be cool with it, and that's crazy. Like, that's a huge gift for us. But at the same time, we feel protective of her and protective of us, and so it's not like we go there and we're just switching all over place.
• 13:13
  Like, sometimes there's a little bit of turn taking or sometimes there's a lot of people. Like, it can be kind of dizzy because so many people wanna know what's going on because we are stinking hungry for good. And so when you find someone good and safe, then it's like you wanna just soak it up. Like, I know that feeling, but that's a different podcast. So there's sometimes more awareness, but that has also helped us become more co conscious over the last year.
• 13:40
  Because as we have built friendship and that friendship has been good and safe and held us accountable to the friendship and not let us run away, but also not smothered us so we were stuck. Like, it's been a healthy kind of presence. It's really, like, anchored us in some way to the present way more than anything else ever has. Being loved like that and being cared for like that has helped us all know to a brand new degree of what is going on and why it matters and challenged us to follow through and stick with it because we know what it's like to lose friends now. And so our friend is worth keeping, and we wanna take good care of her the same way she takes good care of us.
• 14:28
  And so that's a powerful and healing experience. The other things that can impact covert or overt have to do with the degree of safety that you have. If you're still not safe, then you can definitely do this whole masking thing even if it's not intentional. It's just part of being protective. Just like when you're little and all of this was still happening to us, we didn't go around telling people we're DID.
• 14:56
  Some of us knew, but didn't know there were words for it. And other people, like, inside knew, but didn't know that it was a thing or that there were others. And then some didn't know it all because that's just protective. Like, that's that's how it works. That's how the structure is there.
• 15:15
  Right? But then it also depends on amnesia, like how much memory you have between people. So if we're co conscious and using the notebooks to communicate really well, then it's pretty easy to fake our way out there in the world, well, easier, because we know what's going on, and we have a starting place instead of just being disoriented and don't know. There's still some fumbles. Like, there's this friend we've met three times, and she's a friend of our friend.
• 15:42
  And she's very kind to us, and I know we're entirely safe with her. But there's also several issues of hers that are kind of triggers for us, so we're really careful because we don't wanna implode or explode. Like, we can't just fall apart just because we see this friend, but we also can't, like, trauma dump on her just because she has a similar issue. So I think it makes us avoid I I don't know. We need to work that out, but that's also a different podcast.
• 16:09
  The the point is, though, we met her, like, three times. And then on the fourth time we met her, we're like, oh, it's so good to finally meet you. Because I didn't know that we had finally met her because the environments where we had met her are not things that I do. And so, like, I totally missed that. And so I felt super embarrassed.
• 16:28
  And so that was kind of overt. I'm grateful she just kept going with the flow, and it was fine, but it just is. And so it's just part of the deal. And then it also depends on how different everybody is. Right?
• 16:41
  So if someone who's paying attention and is getting to know you starts noticing the difference, then it becomes more overt just because they are more aware of it, not just because of what is going on inside or how different you are. So all of those things can happen. And so I looked this up because people have been talking about it online, and I'm gonna tell you why it matters to me in a minute. But people have been talking about it online, and I looked it up and Cloughed, who actually would like to be on the podcast, except he's been sick. So we're gonna get him scheduled when he's feeling better if that is working out, which is super exciting.
• 17:18
  But anyway, I looked up something that he said about overt and covert. And he said twenty percent of DID that is overt, only six percent make an overt presentation, intentionally. So this would include people who are, like, culturally plural, and they are out and proud. And they tell you who they are. They are out at work and with all of their friends and their family.
• 17:47
  And so everyone knows when they're switching because people are telling them and communicating what's going on. And that's amazing if you have the safety to be able to do that and the courage and the internal work done to be able to do that. It doesn't mean it's for everybody, and it's okay if it's not you. We are somewhere way more out than we used to be. Obviously, there's a podcast, but not nearly like that.
• 18:16
  We don't just go around telling everybody because it's not been safe and because we have a family, like all these little children that depend on us, everything we do requires considering their safety as well. So it limits our choices. But at the same time, we've come out further than we have before even with acknowledging to the ISSTD that we, as a member of ISSTD clinically, also have DID. And then we found others who have come out with the ISSTD as well, saying, I am also a therapist with DID, which is a big deal and takes a lot of courage and, again, a whole other podcast. But that's examples of that.
• 19:01
  Fourteen percent are overt fourteen percent are overt, but don't try to draw attention to themselves. So that's kind of maybe where we are if, we don't go around just, hey, we're DID and announcing everything. But when we're out functioning in the world and we have safe people we can interact with, if it comes up, we can respond to that. But we also appreciate just getting to be human. And if we're supposed to be getting better and learning to function as a whole, then it's important to us as well to be identified as the whole.
• 19:35
  I don't know how to explain it, and that may be another podcast or part of what I wanna talk about in a minute. So so that 14% are kind of overt just because of how they present, but they're trying to be covert. So they're trying to pass as not having DID. They're trying to keep it under wraps or they don't know it themselves. Right?
• 19:55
  Forty percent of people with DID are overt enough that there's plenty of signs that an experienced clinician would figure it out. And then another forty percent are just disguised intentionally, and no one would really notice it until, like, for example, for us, when things fell apart and people started noticing was after our parents died. It was like the final straw where we just kind of broke and we could no longer keep it under wraps. So I looked all that up to kind of understand just sort of the dynamics, and I know there's YouTube videos that go into it differently and more specifically for alters. But just as an overview of overt and covert, I wanted to sort of get the footing on because it changes things with friendship, and that's really the piece I wanna talk about.
• 20:48
  But here's the reason why the question came up, because I feel like there's something happening with a shift there with us in that the walls go up. Like, since we don't get to see the therapist, and it's really been a long time, you guys. Like, the last time we really actually had therapy, I don't even know. Like, it was months ago, and now we've been trying to get in and we've seen different therapists and trying different things since our schedule has changed. And I shared this on Facebook.
• 21:26
  I talked about this a little bit, how it wasn't just not seeing the therapist, although that's obviously huge. Our whole routine around grounding ourselves for the week and orienting ourselves was based on seeing her. And because she was so far away or we were so far away, we're the ones who moved, like going to see her was epic. And so it was a four hour drive there, two hours of therapy, a four hour drive home that really took longer because we stopped to journal and write in the notebooks. And sometimes because of the weather especially or when we could have points and we were able to or in the summer times when the kids were out of school and we brought some of them with us or took turns with them, then we would say either at the in laws or a hotel.
• 22:23
  And so it turned into this epic thing where our routine was on Sundays, we would be packing to go to therapy, like packing. Because we need, like, the clothes for the next day, we need pajamas for that night, we need our toothbrush, and we need, like, all of the art supplies in the entire world, every toy we could fit in a backpack, plus the giant bear, and, like, it was epic. It was this routine. And it really kind of gave us time away from the family, which I say very, very respectfully. You all know that we love the family, but it gave us time away from parenting and time away from work.
• 23:05
  So instead of working, like, Monday through Friday, doctor e works Tuesday through Saturday, and we worked Saturdays so that we could have Mondays off. And so our weekend, we literally went away every weekend for therapy. And so it was really this epic experience where for the first time, we got away in healthy ways, but also came home. And we maybe needed three years of practice at that. I'm just saying, like, it really maybe took that long for that piece to set in because we've never had that before, permission to just go away and take care of ourselves.
• 23:52
  And then do you remember last summer and then again last fall, we went on those retreats with other women. Right? And they were really good. I mean, talks we listened to and the conferences we were participating in, those were amazing. But it was also just for the first time in our adult lives, well, ever, right?
• 24:12
  But to just be around healthy functioning, trying to love each other women in healthy and appropriate and safe ways and learn about friendship because we've obviously failed it so miserably. Like, there's this trail of scars behind us. Right? And nobody wants to be our friend. Nobody can handle being our friend because we're so much by default even when we try really hard not to be.
• 24:40
  And when we're trying hard not to be, that's what happens. It becomes more covert. Like when those walls start going up, then it becomes more covert. Like, I noticed this. I didn't have words for it until I saw this discussion online.
• 24:55
  But but I realized now that's part of what it is. When safety goes down, covert goes up, and somehow it's protective. And the reason this matters is because now we have friends for the first time, and now we're far away from the therapist, we still send her those cards. Do you remember we talked about getting those cards and still sending her like, transitioning out of the notebooks and trying to let her go? Because I know we're not her problem anymore, and she shouldn't have to deal with us.
• 25:30
  And that's what we get for running away. Like, that's our fault. Except it was the right thing for our family, and it's really, really hard to hold on to, and we're also having to really consciously focus on not resenting them Because I would rather be there and I would rather be with my friends and I would rather see her. And so to do the right thing consciously and intentionally as a mother, because I know how much it matters. It's really, really hard.
• 25:58
  I don't like it. Except it's the right thing, and so we're trying hard to do the right thing, but it's also the right thing to take care of us. And so trying to get with a new therapist and trying to get started and things are going well slowly, carefully transitioning. But in those cards that we were sending to the therapist, there's only two left. And I think that we have saved the last one to write to her before we go see the new therapist and the last one after we see the new therapist or something like that.
• 26:38
  We've really paced it out so that even though we sent her a lot, and I don't know how she's dealt with it the whole time, but I think we needed to hold on to her all the way to the new place because it's not just about the betrayal of having to talk to someone else. Not that she betrayed us, but also we're not betraying her. Like, get it in my head, and we can understand it cognitively, but that's not how it feels. And even besides that, there's just this piece that she, I'm gonna cry now. I don't wanna cry.
• 27:15
  She has always been there for the scary things, and going to the new therapist is a scary thing. And so it's like a way of keeping her with us to be able to go do this scary thing. I don't even wanna talk about this right now. But that's the thing, when you don't wanna talk about it and those walls go up, which is dissociation. Right?
• 27:37
  The more you do that, the more covert it becomes because you're not telling anyone. So then when you're not telling anyone, this is why we were crying in the podcast a couple weeks ago or last week or whatever order they get posted in. I don't know how they get scheduled. But this is what we were crying about a few weeks ago when I was totally freaking out and embarrassing myself on the podcast, is that when you separate yourself or isolate from the people who care about you and do love you in good and safe and healthy and appropriate ways, and you put up walls to separate you from them, then it just isolates you like you're putting yourself under siege. And so no good gets in because you've walled it out trying to protect yourself from how much it hurts.
• 28:30
  So I noticed that's part of what happens with covert. Even though covert is not something that's intentional, the more that you try to protect yourself oh, how do I say it? Even though covert and overt, I don't think are always intentional. Obviously, they can't always be. Although some people, as you try to live more present, and maybe it's really possible you can open up to people.
• 29:00
  I don't know. This is what's so hard. So, like, leaving the therapist, but being able to send her a card if I want, in some ways, I could be as open as I ever was or in some ways even more open. And yet also there's those feelings of, like, I don't want to be so difficult or so much. And so I put up walls and try to cover up problems, none of which is what she would want.
• 29:33
  That's just protective, right, because it hurts so much to be away. Or with my friend who would be there for anything if she were able, and having that kind of person in your life changes things except that it makes everything overt. And then you just start realizing things and knowing things and learning things and feeling things, and it's really, really hard. But then it's also embarrassing. We sent letters out to our friends, like somebody did, kids did, somebody inside, and I don't even know what happened because everyone's so careful with me.
• 30:15
  They don't talk to me, and so then I don't know what happened. So they're being covert, and then I'm being covert, and then nobody knows what's going on, which that doesn't help anyone except everyone's trying to respectful, except I'm four hours away. None of this is even for the podcast, except I'm talking about covert and overt. How do you how do you know when it's okay to be more overt, to relax enough to let all of that go? Tomorrow, we are going to the new therapist for the first time, and it's different than ever before because this time we know why we're going.
• 31:00
  I just stopped crying. This time we know why we're going. And it's the first time we know why we're going. The very first time we were diagnosed at 17, like, not everyone knew about it, and we went because we were in trouble at school for writing in our journals, which they gave to the parents. So we didn't know why we were going to therapy except that we were in trouble, and then that's when we found out about DID.
• 31:40
  But then we didn't go back for a long time. Right? And then when we finally went back after the parents died, that's why we were going, And Emma was super anxious and super confused and not understanding what was going on. And then she had to learn about the DID, and the husband had to learn about DID. And then finally, we got to the therapist who helped us calm down because she was an anxious little tightwad.
• 32:06
  Like, we were so wound up so tight. Like, we were having heart palpitations, like a walking panic attack all the time. Like, it was insane. That's not even possible, by the way. But you know what I mean.
• 32:18
  And we were just anxious off the charts, and it was so, so hard. And it took these three years just to feel safe. And now we don't get to see her anymore. Okay. Focus.
• 32:32
  I can't talk about that. I have to focus. Okay. So it took us all three years just to feel safe and to kind of learn our system and who is here and what it means and that everything's okay and to lay out what our story is, like, the notebooks and through her enduring patience dealing with us and tolerate it. I don't even know.
• 32:53
  Like, I would be irritated. All that junk was in my office. Where is she supposed to put that? I don't know. I don't even know how much it is.
• 32:59
  How much does a notebook a week stack up to be over three years? She's never complained about it once. Not to me. Not out loud. But it took all of that time to figure out that much and to let everyone just lay their pieces on the table.
• 33:19
  We haven't looked at them yet, but we have all been able to at least put our pieces out on the table. And so now for the first time we're going to a new therapist, and this time we have to take the pieces with us and look at them and say, honestly, I know this much already. We know about DID. Here are the things that we understand so far. Here's who we are, and here's what we need to talk about.
• 33:46
  Because we're ready to talk about it, but it's so stinking hard, and it's so stinking awful. And now we have to start with a new therapist who's a stranger. She might be amazing, but she's a stranger. We're not because of this stupid podcast. I'm not supposed
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: to say stupid. I have
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: to stop saying stupid. The husband talked to me about it because the kids aren't the outside kids are not allowed to use the s word, which apparently is stupid. And I'm like, I would take any s word I could get right now. Okay? So you can't take away stupid.
• 34:24
  Okay. So overt and covert. So I don't know how to actually be overt about it. Like, don't know how to make it intentional. I don't know that you can.
• 34:34
  Maybe some people can, but we're not there yet. But we have to be overt enough that in some way as a system, we're walking into a stranger's office and saying, hey. We have DIE, and this is who we are, and here's our list of pieces that we need to tackle. Well, that sounds fun. No.
• 34:54
  That's hell, and I'm not looking forward to it. But we're going in the morning, and we're going to do it. But that's the risk with being overt is if you're doing if you're being overt with friends, you have to be careful that you have really good and safe friends, or it's not safe to be overt. If you're gonna be overt and out and proud in the community or at work, then you have to be really prepared to handle the consequences of that, which is a lot of stigma and a lot of shunning, and a lot of oppression, and a lot of microaggression, and a lot of straight up aggression. And if you're gonna be overt with friends, then you have to lay your whole heart out, and you have to trust that they're still gonna be there even when some child part sends out letters to everybody.
• 36:01
  Because that's not okay with me. I'm not trying to be more crazy. I'm trying to get better. We are trying to heal. So I don't know how to stop them, because then if I'm stopping them, then I'm the one being overt because that's different than what would naturally happen if I would just settle down and let go and relax and let things heal.
• 36:25
  But maybe overt and covert don't mean what I think they mean. But what I'm saying is, how do you know when it's okay, and how do you know when it's not, and how do you balance that for what is safe and good without ruining everything for everybody? Because if we could have kept better control and kept things more covert, then none of this would have happened. That's what it feels like, which is not, like, a real thought. That is a false thought.
• 36:57
  I'm aware of that. It's escalated in my head because I'm having big feelings. But do you see, like, being overt or covert, I don't think it's a conscious choice most of the time. But the more co conscious you become and the more you progress in healing and the more things start to change, then those dynamics shift too, and you're aware of it and you feel it. And how do you handle that in good and safe ways?
• 37:28
  How do you know what's okay? Like, I've experienced what friendship means now because I've had a friend who came and was safe and who stayed and accepted me as I was without making me be something else or asking for me more than what I was able to do. That's part of what was the safety. Right? And so I've experienced that.
• 37:57
  But how do I give that back? How do we as a system give that back without putting up walls? Because if we don't have the walls, and if we are more overt and just let everyone do their own thing, then it's not just about a layer of chaos. It's about people seeing through us. It's about a whole different layer of vulnerability that I'm not sure I know what to do with.
• 38:30
  And I know I've kind of gone completely off topic from overt and covert, except there are implications to that. There's there's one perspective of overt and covert as far as where you've come from and how people see you presenting, but there's also a whole layer of perspective from the inside and what that feels like and how it changes over time, especially if you're getting better, which is different than some people, I'm not saying everyone, but some people who are overt because they're so solidified and identify as DID that they want to stay that way because they're okay with it, which is great. That's their choice and their ability. And I've learned a lot from them and having courage even to make my own progress. But I want to get better and I want to be whole.
• 39:28
  And I don't know that even we can. One therapist that I interviewed was like about not the DID wasn't real, but it was only a biological thing. And if I would fix the biological things, then that would just go away on its own. Like, if they weren't even gonna do any kind of memory work or trauma stuff, and I'm like, so now you just want me to hold all these pieces we worked so hard to find, and I don't know where to put them? Like, where can I set them down?
• 40:00
  I can't just mail them to the therapist with paper. Like, I oh, I guess we did. That's exactly what we did. We can't I don't even know what I'm saying. I can't even focus.
• 40:15
  I just I don't know about the implications of overt and covert. It's so risky. I don't know how to do it intentionally. I don't know that you can, except it seems some people do. Some systems are able to do it, but I I can't.
• 40:35
  I don't know how to do it as a function. I can see how they measure it as an expression of this is how we're presenting because of how we're functioning this week, but I don't know how to do it as an intention of, hello. I know you're my best friend, but I really wanna tell you my name is, and fill in the blank. And other friends that we just share together, I'm intentionally and on purpose were hiding from and trying to like like, if you here's where covert comes into play. You can be, like, covert friendship of I'm gonna show up when I'm supposed to show up, but I'm going to hide and not interact on purpose.
• 41:17
  And if I wait long enough, maybe you'll forget because that kind of passive aggression can keep you safe if people are not real. But when people are real and show up and then you're still there naked just being all vulnerable and waiting for friendship and trying to learn how to do it. But my friend now doesn't play those games. Like, we have to just be real and just be there, and it's been so, so good for us. But that makes us more present and more overt even by default.
• 41:48
  And, like, they see us, and they see how we're experiencing. And I know this isn't even entirely coherent yet because I don't know how to process it, and I don't know how to do it. But it matters when you have real friends to do it well and to be present. And so we're trying, but it's terrifying. And now it's one thing to say, okay.
• 42:15
  I'm ready to work on this in therapy, and it's another thing to go in with a stranger that you don't know and be like, okay, because I'm ready to talk about this, so let's do it. Because I can't do it without us working together as a system, and working together as a system reveals them to this new person that I would rather be covert with, meaning not just show everybody because what if it's not safe? Maybe that's really what it's about is we're just in a total panic about starting therapy tomorrow therapist. So even though we worked so hard to get ready for therapy, it's still gonna take time to adjust to a new person to do therapy with. Because if you just read the notebooks and you just know what we've done to prepare prepare for this, then it's a good transition time because we're ready to roll up our sleeves and get to work.
• 43:11
  But when you talk about who you feel safe with to do that work or to be able to do that work, yeah, nobody. That's not happening. So maybe that's what this is about. It's just the panic attack of we have to go see the new therapist. Oh, why does it always come back to that?
• 43:30
  And why do we leave the therapist? There's an s word for you. That was just wrong. We should not have done it. No.
• 43:39
  We have to. It was the right thing. Oh, I can't okay. We have to go see new the new therapist tomorrow. Like, we're out of time.
• 43:48
  We have the appointment. We've done the assessments. We've seen the doctor. We've even been to the dentist. We've gotten everybody back in with family therapy.
• 43:57
  Like, we've we're running out of excuses. It's just time. We have to go start with someone new.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.