Latest / Project Podcast / From project professional to CEO, with the RSPCA's Joanna Rowland

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From project professional to CEO, with the RSPCA's Joanna Rowland · Project Podcast

0:14
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
0:17
the project profession. My name is Emma Davidson.
0:20
I'm the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host
0:25
today's podcast is with Joanna Rowland, chief Executive of the
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animal welfare charity, the RSPCA dedicated OPM Podcast
0:34
Listeners might remember my previous interview with her in
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2020 during the pandemic, when she was director of HMRC's
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COVID-19 Response Unit, responsible for helping
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mastermind the UK government's furlough scheme, and where she
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was also head of the project management profession.
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A lot has changed for Jo since then.
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She rose the ranks of the civil service, leaving project
0:55
management behind her to become Director General of the UK Home
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Office, before joining the RSPCA in December 2025 as CEO.
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I wanted to catch up with her to find out what it's like to be a
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first time CEO, why project management is the perfect
1:10
training for the role, why project managers need to set
1:13
their sights higher, and her advice to getting to the
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C-Suite. Thank you, Joe welcome to the
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APM. Welcome back to the APM podcast.
1:21
It's nice to see you again. Thank.
1:23
You. So last time we spoke you at the
1:26
HMRC and now you've been in post as chief executive of the RSPCA
1:33
since December. So three months, yeah, three
1:36
month anniversary has passed. I've done my 100 days, the
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magical 100 days, Yeah. And how's?
1:43
How's it been going? Tell us a bit about your role
1:45
and, and what you're kind of areas of responsibility are
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right now and and kind of like what you'd like to achieve as
1:55
chief exec. Yeah.
1:57
So it's my first ever Chief exec role and it's my first role in
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the third sector. So all very, very exciting, but
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it's sort of in a way it brings together lots of aspects that
2:11
I've done in the past from, you know, a bit of tech and all the
2:15
tech projects I've done, the leadership, the finance,
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etcetera. So, so it feels both strangely
2:21
familiar and very new at the same time.
2:25
But I mean, the main things for me, I this is such an amazing
2:28
charity. I describe it as inheriting A
2:31
stately home. You don't, you don't really own
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it. You just are the custodian for
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that generation. And then you've got to try and
2:39
hand it off to the future generations in a better state
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than you found it. And so for me, a better state
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for the RSPCA is One Financial resilience.
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It's really hard out there for charities right now.
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So and everyone thinks animal welfare charities are really
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well funded. It's hard.
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So, so definitely financial resilience, but more than
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anything it's just it's making a real difference to animals and
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that's not just about our rescue side, it's also about sort of
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advocacy, prevention and changing things like food and
3:12
farming practises. So, high ambition, lots to do.
3:16
Was it a place you'd always wanted to work for?
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Is animal wear first thought you've always there's been close
3:23
to your heart? I mean, it'd be interesting to
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know how the job came about and whether it was always your
3:30
ambition to get to the very top of an organisation.
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I've always wanted to run my own organisation.
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I've always wanted that, you know, and it's, I describe it as
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so you get the whole train set to, to play with, as it were.
3:46
And that's, that's more about because it's about inspiring and
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leading a whole organisation. So that's definitely been the
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ambition. I didn't think for a minute it I
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would be lucky enough to do this role.
4:03
And it's only when headhunters came knocking, I wasn't even
4:05
looking to leave, leave the civil service.
4:09
But when they came knocking and it was the RSPCA, it was heart
4:13
and head both said yes, yes, let's do this.
4:17
It was, I have to say it was a bit of a heart wrench to leave
4:20
the civil service. I, you know, it's a great place,
4:23
but I'm loving every minute of it here.
4:28
It sounds like you are in a place where you really want to
4:31
be and interesting that it's always been your ambition to
4:34
lead an organisation, which is something that I'm keen to dive
4:39
into a little bit because you come up through project
4:43
management. Last time we spoke, I think you
4:45
were Chief Transformation Director General at HMRC and
4:51
you've been working, yeah, you've been working on the
4:53
furlough scheme, which seems like a very long time ago now.
4:57
But we're we're we're speaking to project professionals.
5:02
And I think there is a real shift in upwards in ambition
5:06
that there is real credibility in project management as a
5:08
profession. That is something that can take
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you right to the top of organisation.
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And those I've spoken to have been on that journey say that
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one of the absolute benefits of working project management is
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that you get oversight of the entire kind of process of an
5:25
organisation of all the stakeholders.
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And that's something that's invaluable.
5:29
So how did you how how have you gotten to where you are through
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project management and what have been the advantages that it's?
5:39
Brought you so. So first of all, I really
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resonate with that you know that you get the oversight, the whole
5:47
process, you in project management, you are, you are
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overseeing the entire enterprise from the vision, the goal
5:56
setting, motivating a team, building a team, communication,
6:03
you know, projects do or die on communication obviously budget
6:09
setting all the time, risk management, stakeholder
6:12
management, all the things that I'm now doing as ACEO.
6:16
That is what you do as a, you know, major programme director.
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So in terms of skill set, it really, really sets you up well.
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The other thing I found particularly in government
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project management is you do some massive scale of things,
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you know, like making tax digitals, multi multi billion
6:36
pounds. Some of the projects running in
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the Home Office, multi billion pounds stuff.
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I'd love to be in the billion pounds in charity.
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We're not quite at that scale of money, but no, it it really does
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have some parallels. So you are able to demonstrate
6:54
both the skill set but also the scale that many CVS can't.
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What have been the major differences between moving from
7:04
civil service to something like a a charity?
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So working in the public sector, what's kind of unique about it?
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Does it bring additional kind of financial responsibility you're
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answering to different stakeholders?
7:19
Is there anything that you've particularly noticed?
7:23
Yeah. So a couple of observations, 1st
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of what the buck genuinely stops with you here.
7:31
You know, so although there is a board and essentially actually
7:34
the trustees on the board are responsible for a charity, the
7:39
level of day-to-day decision making that you do as a chief
7:43
exec and a charity is far and beyond the decision making you
7:48
do as a DG. So for example, what pay rises
7:52
everybody gets, what reward package you might give people.
7:59
There be decisions about whether to release certain comms.
8:03
Whereas in the civil service, although the scale and the risk
8:08
that you're managing as a DG is enormous and societal impact is
8:15
enormous, there are lots of things like you've still got #10
8:19
saying whether your comms can go out or not.
8:21
You'll have a corporate finance team somewhere worrying about
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the financial solvency of of the organisation.
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So whereas as ACEO in the charity, all of that's on your
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plate and you've got to, and you are responsible for all of it,
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which is both brilliant because back to the sort of, you know,
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you've got all the levers of control to meet ambition, but
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it's also quite daunting. And it isn't lost on me how much
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in a way how much more responsibility I feel in this
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sector than I did in government. The other observation I'd make
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that's really quite different is the role a board of trustees
9:08
plays to a charity is quite different than a board might
9:13
play to a government department. And and that's and that's
9:20
different in some ways they're both more hands off and in some
9:24
ways they're more hands on. It's, it's a different, it's
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just a different dynamic. So it's taken me a little while
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to understand and get used to that.
9:33
I. Want to come back to what you
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said before about communication, which is a critical skill for
9:38
project professionals. What have you learnt from being
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able to manage or communicate with different stakeholders
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which who inevitably have competing priorities?
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I mean it's partly about keeping everyone happy, but what has
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project management given you in terms of, I guess people skills?
10:02
So kind of like covered of comms, but in terms of dealing
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with stakeholders, stakeholder management, has there been any
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lessons that project management has given you that you you're
10:14
now really kind of taking on as CEO?
10:18
Oh, loads. This is an area where that has a
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real overlap with project management.
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So. So on the one hand, stakeholder
10:27
mapping, good old fashioned stakeholder understanding.
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Who do I need? Who do I want?
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Who who can accelerate me? Who can stop us?
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You know that sort of good, good understanding.
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But I think the main thing project management does is is
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taught me to really understand stakeholder expectations,
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because no amount of communication that you do is
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going to be effective if you are communicating to an assumed
11:00
expectation. Whereas actually the reality is
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the stakeholder's expecting something different.
11:07
And the other thing, like most communications about something
11:10
changing, even here, it could be about we're changing our
11:14
strategy or, you know, we're we're want to change the
11:18
attitude to so and project management has taught me it for
11:23
humans change, it weirdly is all about loss, even though the
11:28
project's all about future and excitement and forward thinking.
11:31
The psychology of change is all about loss.
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So I, I've taken a lot of, find myself drawing on that an awful
11:39
lot when communicating with stakeholders in this role.
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What about what project management doesn't give you?
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So what does it take to break out of project management and
11:50
into a kind of senior leadership role, senior executive role that
11:55
is beyond that? Function so the number one thing
12:01
here which I and I'm I'm laughing at myself as project
12:07
director you you your job is to control chaos, isn't it you like
12:12
you start a project it's full of unknowns and assumptions and as
12:16
you work through your lovely programme plan, you're gradually
12:20
nailing down more and more certainty towards delivery and
12:27
and let's face it, I think most project managers we love a
12:31
little bit of control. We love our control frameworks
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and whereas when you run a big organisation, you know, control
12:40
can be a bit of an illusion and plus you've got to be careful
12:44
not to stifle innovation. And so, so adapting, having a
12:51
different way into thinking about controls is quite
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important because it would, whilst I'd feel lovely and
13:02
comfortable running an organisation with all the same
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controls I would have put around one of my programmes, the
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reality is you, you can't do that.
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It's it's got to be more nuanced.
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Have you? Was that something you'd thought
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about before you'd moved into this role or went experience
13:19
that you picked up in your last role at HMRC?
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Or is it something that, is it a realisation that's happened
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whilst you're actually been doing this role?
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So it is to some extent A realisation coming into this
13:35
role. However, in between HMRC and
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this I had a short time at the Home Office and.
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Oh yes, you did. Yeah.
13:44
And that was in OPS rather than projects.
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And so, so that that sort of was, was a transition between
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the two worlds for me, which was helpful, I think.
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I think if I'd gone straight from project management to this,
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the shock would have been a bit harder.
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Would you say that's a piece of advice you'd give to people?
14:10
It would be to come out maybe not saying that you took a
14:14
sideways move, but if you're quite senior within project
14:17
management that an opportunity comes up to gain experience of
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operations or kind of business as usual that that might be
14:25
something valuable. Definitely.
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I think it really, really helps to have run something rather
14:34
than build something. I think it's and because when
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you're running something day-to-day, whilst you will have
14:44
an element of change in there, you, you also understand the
14:50
motivating teams is slightly harder because you haven't with
14:55
project management, you've got an amazing end vision.
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You know, you're starting with nothing, you're starting with a
15:00
concept. Everybody's excited to get to
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the end goal and if you're running your project well,
15:05
you've got a clear defined endpoint of what success looks
15:09
like. Whereas day-to-day operations
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can be a bit harder that it can be a bit more turning a wheel
15:16
and keeping, keeping teams motivated through that and still
15:23
developing vision is important. That said, you know, again,
15:30
bringing to OPS some of the project management thing, one of
15:33
the ways I tried to sort of build that motivation in OPS is
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almost by creating milestone points of success in.
15:43
So even though it wasn't a project in that that's our end
15:46
game, that's that's our finish line, you can still create
15:50
milestones along the way. That's a really good point.
15:54
So to have those mini goals along the way and motivating
15:59
people through that and keeping the whole process moving
16:02
forward. How do you square?
16:05
I was interested in what you're saying before about having this
16:08
battle with control at the same time allowing for innovation.
16:14
And I think you're right. I think a lot of project
16:17
professionals do have that element of control.
16:19
I mean, it's all about risk, You know, what risks are are we in
16:24
danger of encountering and how do we mitigate those risks and
16:30
squaring that off against giving people the freedom to pursue
16:35
what you need to get done, but in their own way, and for those
16:38
unexpected serendipitous things to happen that could be
16:41
beneficial. It's having that open mind to
16:43
innovate. I guess it's innovation, isn't
16:45
it? How do you square the two?
16:48
And what advice would you pass on to to project professionals
16:53
around those two different aspects?
16:57
So first of all, I'm drawing a lot on agile methodology without
17:05
calling it agile because it's that you know that I'm a true
17:09
believer. There is the very, very
17:12
disciplined project management, technical management style of
17:16
agile delivery, but then there is principles from that way of
17:22
working that can create agility in the way organisations
17:27
operate. So I'm on a big quest to bring
17:32
into this this organisation much more multifunctional working,
17:36
much more Co design, much more Co innovation.
17:41
And what I think Agile does really well, it's structures
17:46
sort of pockets of innovation. So it puts very strict either
17:51
time cost, quality tram lines around a very defined either
17:58
problem statement or user story. And and the teams innovate
18:04
within that boundary. They don't.
18:06
So, you know, there's controls to stop them running over cost
18:10
time, whatever the outcome they've got to achieve is
18:15
really, really clear, but they get to innovate on the how they
18:19
achieve it. And I think there's something we
18:21
can really learn from that. And I'm I want to bring in much
18:25
clearer shared outcomes and shared objectives across teams,
18:31
much more multifunctional working and then more freedom
18:36
for the teams to decide how they achieve those outcomes and
18:41
objectives. Can I?
18:43
Pin you down about what do you actually mean about Co design
18:46
and multifunctional working because I'm not sure that
18:49
everyone listening might be familiar with that.
18:52
Yeah, so a really good example, we've got an RSPCA assured
18:57
scheme. That scheme here is it's about
19:02
raising the welfare of farmed animals.
19:05
We have a number of aspects to that.
19:08
So there's a way we communicate that to the public.
19:11
That's the comms team. There's the assured teams
19:15
themselves that actually go out on farms and check standards.
19:18
There's our animal welfare policy experts that really
19:21
understand the science behind sort of animal sentient
19:25
sentience, etcetera. It bring those all together, you
19:31
get a much stronger plan and strategy than if each of those
19:35
teams developed their their bit of the strategy in isolation.
19:40
So it's about looking at all the skills needed to achieve an
19:44
outcome and making sure that people come together to achieve
19:49
it together, rather than or do their bitterly outcome
19:53
separately. So it's kind of joining the dots
19:57
between various silos, I guess, that people have found
20:00
themselves in. Definitely.
20:03
What are the biggest challenges the RSPCA faces at the moment
20:08
that you're you're interested in working on a kind of outside of
20:11
financial pressure it it's interesting what you're talking
20:16
about now because that comes to kind of cultural change, I
20:18
guess. Yeah, so there's definitely
20:22
cultural change internally and I think every organisation faces
20:27
that to some extent as, as all the Gen Z are starting to take
20:32
the world by storm. People my age are used to
20:36
hierarchies and, you know, structures and, and even in my
20:40
policing days, badges on shoulders and things.
20:44
Well, so I think there's a need for all organisations to just
20:47
become less hierarchical, more joined up.
20:51
So that's one the, the main thing I think as a RSPCA
20:57
charity, there are there are so many ways we can have an impact
21:03
on animal welfare. The way we are most renowned is
21:07
for our direct rescue and inspectorate and prosecutions.
21:11
And that's an amazingly important part of what we do.
21:16
But there's also a lot more we could be doing on prevention and
21:22
education. So, for example, responsible pet
21:26
ownership, educating people why certain breeds of the pet dog,
21:32
pet cat, whilst might be Instagram trendy, actually that
21:37
that type of breed we're breeding in illness and
21:41
suffering. And, and I think the more we can
21:44
educate people, we can have a a bigger impact in prevention.
21:50
And but people, people want to see us do the rescue and
21:55
therefore often fund us to do the rescue bit.
21:59
It's AI, guess it relates to storytelling, doesn't.
22:03
It it absolutely does as A and it's also the visibility of the
22:10
impact To show a photo of a rescued animal is very emotive.
22:17
The photo itself tells that story, whereas something
22:23
slightly more intangible like an education package to school aged
22:28
children, it's, it doesn't make for as quite an, as a motive a
22:33
photo of, oh, I can see the impact that has on animal
22:37
welfare. So you've got to be much better
22:39
at telling the story, as you say, about exactly that.
22:44
I'd like to ask you what you feel you've done right, I guess
22:49
secrets to your success to get you to where you are now and any
22:56
advice you'd pass on to project professionals who might have a
23:00
similar ambition to you. Both those kind of mid career.
23:04
But also, you know, we're just talking about generation said
23:08
like who might be entering the project profession at the
23:12
moment. What advice would you give to
23:16
them? So I've asked you 3 questions in
23:19
one, the secrets to your success and and from there the advice
23:25
you give to those both mid career and those and those kind
23:28
of early career professionals as well.
23:31
So I, I've always been one to take myself out side my comfort
23:39
zone quite a lot. In fact, my husband gets quite
23:43
he you just get to the end of a programme or something and I'd
23:46
be like, oh, this best team ever, a best programme ever.
23:49
And then I'd come home. Oh, I've now accepted this like
23:52
impossible task with impossible challenges and a new team to
23:58
build. Is that what keeps you
23:59
motivated? It sounds like it does that you
24:01
really like to get stuck into something difficult.
24:04
Yeah, I do. Like I was saying, it's
24:08
impossible. It's like a red rag to a ball to
24:10
me. It's like, oh, this right, like
24:12
get in there. So it's a definitely taking
24:14
myself outside the comfort zone is really important because
24:18
that's how you grow and develop. Plus tackling the difficult
24:22
stuff, your risk is higher. I once, actually, I did one of
24:26
those psychology things that you have to do as a leader and it
24:30
looked a bit like a heart attack on a page because I was on the
24:34
one hand extreme risk taker, like big, big risk taker, but on
24:39
the other hand I was an extreme warrior and that that doesn't.
24:44
Necessarily sound that healthy? No, it's it's.
24:47
I mean, it probably is like, I don't know if that doctor might
24:50
think something about that. And certainly, yeah, it's, it's
24:55
your cortisol levels are high. But I think what that allows me
24:58
to do, I'm not afraid of taking big risk, but the worry element
25:02
means that I will diligently put controls around that risk.
25:08
I'll think it through. I'll be, I'll, I'll tame it.
25:12
So, so I think the more the braver you are, the more rewards
25:17
you'll get that my advice to mid career is don't, don't plan it
25:25
too carefully because my career has been a big zigzag.
25:32
You know, we started by saying I did not dream that I'd be doing
25:37
this job in a organisation like this, delighted as I am.
25:41
It was not, that was not on a career plan at any point in my
25:44
life. So, so don't plan it too
25:48
carefully and instead think, think about what, what might
25:53
that next step give me? Like how am I going to grow it
25:58
in that next step? Because no experience is ever
26:04
wasted, even if it doesn't feel like the most natural thing to
26:10
do next. Any experience you get is a
26:13
string to your bow. But early career?
26:16
Say yes to every opportunity that arises.
26:19
You know, if you can do it, even if it's scary, go for it.
26:25
I wasn't going to ask you about being a senior woman in
26:27
business, but is that something that you've reflected on or do
26:30
you think has affected your experience of going up a career
26:34
ladder? Because one thing I when you
26:36
were talking to Sen, I was thinking about, there still is a
26:38
difference between the level of self-confidence between men and
26:42
women and when you were talking about take, take those kind of
26:45
stretch opportunities. Still.
26:48
I think I might be wrong, but it's this idea that men in
26:53
general might say, yes, an opportunity, even though they
26:55
know they can't do it all and we'll just do it by the seat of
27:00
their pants and believe that they could do it.
27:02
Whereas women are more reluctant to go for stuff where they don't
27:06
feel that on paper that they can show that they've done it.
27:09
And I think this comes down to self.
27:11
Confidence in the charity sector?
27:14
Not at all. In fact, actually someone
27:16
highlighted the issue with senior roles in the charity
27:19
sectors. They tend to all be middle-aged
27:22
white women. And I'm like, Oh my God, finally
27:24
I am the problem. So, so that was a bit of a, an
27:30
epiphany for me in the civil service.
27:33
I have to say I still think there is a bias towards men in
27:40
the civil service and I don't think it's a conscious 1, but
27:45
you only have to look. Yesterday, Civil Service World
27:48
published the top 10 earners in the civil service, all 10.
27:55
And they, they did a sort of funny thing about most common
27:58
surnames in the top, highest paid civil servants.
28:02
That was it. Yeah.
28:03
Most common surnames in the top. All 10 top names that.
28:10
Sorry, four names. Oh, I'm getting this all wrong.
28:11
4 names. Yeah.
28:12
Four names. Yeah.
28:13
All 10 top names were men. And I do think when men speak,
28:22
they, they have more automatic credibility than when women.
28:30
Still. Like, it's not.
28:32
I'm not, I don't want to overstate it, but it's just
28:35
there suddenly in the background.
28:38
I think what that does, it means women have to work really hard
28:41
at it and, and, but I think that makes us stronger in the long
28:48
run. I'd change it in a flash.
28:49
It's not right, but it also like all these things.
28:54
Let's turn it into a superpower. OK, that's great.
28:58
My final question would be, as a profession in general, does
29:02
project management need to be more ambitious in establishing
29:07
project management as a career that can take you to the very
29:09
top of an organisation? Absolutely, yes.
29:13
I think there is too much for stereotype of project
29:16
management. We are so much more than geeks
29:19
with Gantt charts. We absolutely the skills you
29:24
need to deliver big projects is, is enormous.
29:29
And, and, but I do think there is a bit of an image problem
29:34
around what a project manager is.
29:38
And and that we're not, we're not all technicians.
29:44
We're we're leaders with technical skills.
29:49
Well, I think you're a case study in point and it's been
29:53
brilliant that you've found time to talk to us.
29:55
And I hope very much that your words will inspire those coming
30:01
up in the profession to go to, to get to the very top of an
30:04
organisation. So it just leads me to thank you
30:07
very much Joe for speaking to us.
30:09
It's been brilliant. Oh well, thank you for having
30:12
me. Thanks again to Joe for joining
30:15
us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast.
30:18
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30:21
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