Latest / Mythmakers / Mythmakers Encore: Did Peter Jackson Get It Right? The Return of the King Movie Reconsidered

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Mythmakers Encore: Did Peter Jackson Get It Right? The Return of the King Movie Reconsidered · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre. For fantasy, my name is Julia Golding. I'm
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  the director of the centre but I make my most of my living as an author and today I'm
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  joined by Jacob Renekker who has come back for a third visit so we can discuss the films
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  of Peter Jackson's version of Lord of the Rings. And if it's number three, where have we reached
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  Jacob? A return of the King. Oh yeah well you see he's obviously an expert because he gets the
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  question. Yeah the third one and took me a second. I mean he's one, two, okay yes the return of the
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  King. So what we're doing in these podcasts is looking back with the perspective of the 20 years
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  we're thinking particularly about the creative choices because we're about the writing really
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  of these and the filmmaking so we're thinking about where the room is to do a different adaptation
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  if anyone's going to take it on in the next decade or so but also what actually happened
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  back 20 years ago the choice is the casting the perfect moments and so on. So first of all Jacob
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  this is a bit of a softball for you. Where does this come in your line up at the films?
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  Yeah three. Yeah it's and yeah we mentioned this before that the first it's hard with between
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  the first and the last and in an install makes the wraps up so yes I'm all say all say first
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  because but only barely edging out fellowship. At this moment I will say just right now and then
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  preserving the ability to change that in five minutes from now. Okay so for me it's my second
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  favorite but it has the majority of my favorite moments so that may seem a bit counterintuitive
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  but there are also some bits I don't like in it so you know it sort of goes in the middle it's
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  the seesaw point in the middle. So first question for you is what would you say about the overall
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  choices that they made in this things like how the new culture of Gondor was realized and those
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  long stretches in Mordor the big the big things about the film. Yeah those were good I mean
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  of course visually with Gondor the set was incredible and I thought yeah those are the costuming
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  as well right that really really seemed like a unified kingdom right there so yeah so I appreciate
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  I appreciated that and that kind of in the the whiteness right of all of that and the
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  shininess of the plate armor now whether or not plate armor was something that Tolkien
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  imagined is for Gondor might be a bit of a debate but at least there was that you know saying
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  it shininess brightness contrasting you know your scenes of Mordor with with dark you know darker
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  red redder palette there so yeah so I thought it was a good contrast but even though you have
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  it Gondor it's still not perfectly white and shiny right it's this seems like it's decaying
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  right especially with the image of the tree there in that courtyard you kind of this white pristine
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  almost sterilized courtyard but it's kind of falling apart so I thought it did a good job of
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  showing contrasting the you know a light and dark but even with the light it wasn't and you know
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  kind of unsullied light it was you know their cracks and fissures showing that this is a kingdom
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  that's clearly in decline but juxtaposed to Mordor makes it I think seem brighter by contrast that
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  still that you see bits of that Mordor you know the kind of corruption that are there even in the
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  kingdom yeah it's very much a bone white isn't it yeah right right so the black and white
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  aesthetic to the the great hall which sets the tone and I think that it reminds me very much
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  of the Abbey's and the architecture of northern France even though it's a sort of Mediterranean
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  feel I believe that they were trying to create particularly places like Mordzami Shell which is
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  clearly an inspiration for the way that Minnesteria sort of rises up I think that
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  think you're back I didn't think this at the time but it's something I thought since one of the
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  things which I feel somebody could do if they're going they're trying to find a room for how do I
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  make this different is that Minnesteria stops very abruptly at the wall whereas in the book there's
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  a reference to the deep not deeping wall but a wall around the field and plus evidence of farming
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  and that kind of thing and if you think of something equivalent in real human history like the
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  field of Waterloo some of the skirmishes took place in farmsteads and places like that so
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  you could actually make it feel more real by actually suggesting a city that is connected to
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  something other than a big grassy plain so that's the one thing which didn't bother me at the time
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  and I know that it's much simpler to put CGI on a landscape which is just basically grass
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  but I did think that there's an element there where it doesn't feel it feels like a fantasy place
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  rather than a real place as a result yeah now I agree and I think that for me in going back to two
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  towers for a moment I think some of the most effective moments we're just tiny moments
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  where you have at right where we got to Rohan and you see villagers that are being terrorized
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  right and see these children being placed on a horse by a weeping mother so as those you know
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  it's kind of every person who is what is it like for you know quote normal people to live in this
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  world where usually we're having this heightened sense of characters you know it's it's
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  your arrogance it's your gimmies your leg illnesses your hobbits are kind of thrown in them but still
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  they're kind of held higher as kind of larger than life characters but then to see you know dirty
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  weeping mothers who are trying to save their their children for me that was I think deepened the
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  impact of the nature of the threat and the the the evil that is actually happening here and so
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  we're right with gondor if it's just they're all kind of inside of this fortress already you don't
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  get as much of a sense so I didn't connect with the people that lived in in gondor I you know I
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  wasn't yeah I'm sure that's the time thing because there's wonderful material in the book which
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  let's imagine someone's doing a miniseries as opposed to a film there's the the father and son
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  that pippin meets barregond and great great great yeah and so you see the war from the perspective
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  of an ordinary soldier who has an important role to play in saving pharmir and his son who has
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  an important little role but a little important role to help carry messages and in the end help
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  save Mary by carrying a message but it humanizes the war and also pippin goes with the son to see
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  the arrival of the armies and you get a sense of it being just more than you know den author and
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  pharmir I mean there's a bigger society it makes gondor and it's surrounding land seem bigger so
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  again this is only something you would do if you had the luxury of a bigger palette rather than a
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  film you got to get people in and out it's a massive amount of story to tell but there does seem
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  to me to be some really exciting material that's not covered which could could go in the miniseries
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  there we go right there is such a thing in our lifetimes and so that's gondor what about the way
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  more door is handled because that I think is a real challenge because it's meant to be hard and
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  it's meant to be that aren't that just relentless suffering but putting that into a film of course
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  means that you don't want your audience to suffer and or just the sameness I think it's I would
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  imagine it's like probably the most difficult thing to do so what did you think of the Mordor parts?
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  Yeah I thought they did a good job of intercutting you know the two bad struggles that are
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  happening so I thought that that was was it was a good use of yeah of an intercuts to
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  keep the audience from getting bogged down in in that oppressiveness of Mordor because really
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  that's I think the the sense that I got this time when I was watching it was yeah a sense of
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  you know kind of a suffocation or oppressiveness because you can almost the air is hot it seems
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  like right and so you're almost drowning in air and the weight of what Frodo's carrying and
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  yeah it's it so if you're so in one way if you would have just focused on the Mordor portion for
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  longer portions and yeah I can see people like that becoming a bit tedious but I thought the way
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  that they were kind of flashing back and forth between the two events was was good as well as
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  you know thematically as it's following some of the those themes of struggles leadership and then
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  by contrast as well right with Eric Warren as you know King and leading mustering this giant army
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  with Sam and Frodo so visually going back and forth between the scope and scale because
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  as you know right on the one hand you have this your massive kind of traditionally epic
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  battle feel uh where the the stakes are actually lower than the smaller scale battle that's where
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  the stakes are at their highest or almost you know cosmic in scope and so seeing both of those uh
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  kind of going back and forth juggling those the the dissonance between the yeah the the the
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  weight of the struggle and the degree of the the stakes for both of those was was something that
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  was more pronounced in my most recent rewatch yeah I think that one of the things I appreciate
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  is the quite daring but I think very good use of little touches of humor in the Hobbit story
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  I'm thinking of the moment when Sam is going up the stairs to save Frodo from the tower
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  um and he's making this sort of ur noise which echoes and they're expecting this enormous warrior
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  to approach and there's just a little Hobbit and he strikes a blow for his gaffer I mean those
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  moments of heroic heroic behavior but with us with the lovely sort of smile of the shy
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  value I think a really good way of doing it there's another moment um when they get caught up in
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  that they're mistaken for orcs and they get caught up in the the march and they're trying to escape
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  from the column that's going to the battlefront because they are the wrong way and and Frodo's
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  sort of saying hit me you know hit me and he sort of is the comedy of them having this moment where
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  they're using their Hobbit intelligence to escape from it and it's so I think very beautifully done
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  I think granted it's difficult material because of its darkness and it's
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  it's just two characters and then you know obviously golem at the end but I think that they
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  did really well on that so you know hats off to the script writers and the film people
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  for actually doing that bit what's interesting compared to the book is there are some
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  little moments where they get pursued by named orcs in in the book which I always enjoy reading
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  because they also give you a moment when um Frodo and Sam over here what might be going on
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  outside which I think is a very good reading experience but I can see why you may not bother with
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  those as uh you don't want to string it out too much it's hard enough to get them out and I can see
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  the decisions that were taken there okay so Jacob what are your perfect moments in the film
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  where you just thought yeah this is everything it could have been
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  there's you know there's yeah there's there's there's a few of those there's one you know
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  visually uh when Frodo Sam and golem kind of towards the beginning of the film when they've left
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  Oskilia and they're passing the statue of the you know defaced king uh and you know the the head
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  of the king is laying on the side there and it's been replaced with some you know iron bound
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  rock that's just kind of teetering there um that was a great depiction of you know kind of what's
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  happening here the combination that we saw with uh with Saruman with this you know industry
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  metal right kind of artificial uh kind of serving the natural you know more grand nature of
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  of of that world um and you you see that uh that statue kind of looks horrific and then you see
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  the head there on the ground but then uh standpoints attention to that right and says uh you know
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  look the king has his crown once more right because that might be Frodo I think like Frodo isn't it
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  is it Frodo says I I thought that Sam is is mentioning that two Frodo because there's that
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  ray of light that strikes the it and and Frodo's kind of I think Sullen as he is for most of the film
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  from that point I could I could I could be wrong this might be the tie-breaker question
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  between us right in it you know in our yeah anyway one of them says his crown together
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  says yeah yeah yeah right right so so I think just that that beautiful moment of hope and what you
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  know that you're you're anticipating this kind of like long slog but then you have that moment uh and
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  it just yeah it was visually just it this time around just kind of struck me as just kind of a
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  a little note of of hope to keep you going knowing where they're going and what's happening there
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  so that was that was one of mine there's yeah a couple other ones but I'd love to hear one of yours
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  okay so I have this I said this is one of my favorite um film for best moments
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  in there is definitely the charge of the rehear him just I mean the excitement I can remember my
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  children when they were younger well even now I'm sure they get excited just waiting for
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  their rehear him to appear on the horizon and then that fantastic speech which is from
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  talking by Bernard Hill uh Theoden um it's just such a wonderful moment of sort of raises the
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  spirits and I think it's that time when film really works you're caught in it and you
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  right you feel like you're riding down the hill with them because the camera work is on a track
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  and it's going really quickly and you feel like you're moving with them I think that is one of my
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  favorite sequences that's a great yeah that that one's great and there's there's a couple the other
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  kind of army related one of you know I arrogance speech to the soldiers at the Black Gate is another
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  one that always kind of oh I hate that was that one that's one of the hated that's my fail I mean
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  talk about you're trying to get people to go on basically a sort of nightmare probably dying
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  mission and you say oh you know there will be a day of shattered spears and you're going to be horribly
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  killed and if I think you're going to be horribly killed then he says not that day and I just I really
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  dislike that we are we all how in my family when that comes on but that happens oh so for me that
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  that is in the uh uh you should have stuck closer to talking but you like it I mean this is where
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  see we're trying the point of having a discussion is a discussion you like that do you
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  right I do yeah I do I mean it's it's it's it's it's it's a failed you know a failed mission it's a
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  suicide mission and just finding some some sort of hope right that uh the day that you're holding
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  right by all the whole deer uh that you're standing first for first something how do you keep
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  somebody's hopes up in the face of the hopeless I think yeah I I I like it I'm but I'm also easily
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  persuaded by rousing political speeches uh so that could that could that could be part of it then
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  the then the his you know his then there's that pot you know there's after his speech but then
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  when when Eric going to say you know for Frodo and charging into battle you know the first
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  that's on the field to go into that so I see that kind of as a continuation in in my mind that
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  exists there's that speech and then because then it cuts away from that but then uh I see that
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  mentally as that speech and then basically he's then charging into battle as kind of the climax
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  of that um but that's how my imagination works so okay I got another good another favorite bit
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  which is um the lighting of the beacons and this is partly to do with the fantastic how would
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  sure score that I'm depended and again this particular film I always associate very much with communal
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  watching in a family context with us all being really excited and involved unlike the it's just
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  this film I think has that quality to it and there is a spot where the light is going to light up on
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  the horizon um as the camera goes across his fantastic New Zealand middle earth landscape and you
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  try and think uh you know where's some poor guy up the top of mountain with his torch going to be next
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  but it's just got a feeling of the connect it connects the two locations which is a very simple
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  device but it has um that majesty to it and sense of the vastness of the worlds I just love that
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  bit and I'd love that piece of music it's probably might be one of my favorite themes from the whole
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  of the the trilogy yeah yeah and that's something that you can only do in film right that is
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  difficult to capture that same scope with the sound right so the visuals the sweeping visuals
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  accompanied by that swelling score is something yeah that that I think they leverage really well
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  in this film adaptation to give you a sense of the grandeur uh and and and the importance of that
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  particular moment so yeah agree uh agreed I mean I can go on I know I can I'll just do one yeah
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  with the one now there's there's still yeah so there's you know several sam sam and Frodo moments
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  yeah yeah that are just that are just that are just incredible um but one uh that
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  that I think visually and with the uh with the the scoring that I think worked really well is
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  um when you know so sam and Frodo are just by themselves at this point kind of the final stretch
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  there and they're clawing their way up mountain doing it they're do at that point Frodo and Sam
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  you'll Sam's kind of laying there and Frodo kind of gets up and he's clawing himself up and then he
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  collapses and Sam's you know coming up but as as Frodo's climbing up that kind of by himself now
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  you hear the shire pipes that start going in this you know bleak landscape is he's you know
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  giving this last ounces of energy and just that sound of the shire pipes is you know so in
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  congruous with these you know destructive oppressive dark suffocating surroundings and then
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  Sam's lying in right when he comes in the you know I can't carry it for you but I can carry you
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  but then you come with that into the west kind of theme that comes swelling up behind him uh during
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  that moment so it's just the use of yeah the the the score there was deeply moving I think really
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  adds to that an already powerful moment uh that's that was there right from from from the books but
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  just adding that that sound um and the kind of again linking and what they're doing the two of them
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  here in this desolate landscape from this verdant peaceful landscape of the shire linking that
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  with those pipes was just really really effective I felt for for me I mean we could just go on
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  raving that the good moments because they're plenty of them and I think that almost every character
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  has a really good moment I'm thinking of pipping singing so I don't like the rather over playing
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  the John Noble Denner Thorne of the blood coming out of his mouth that's a kind of yeah we get it
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  easy but yeah um but the sweetness of the song with the montage of the uh the the cavalry riding
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  towards a hopeless impossible aim of trying to retake osgiliath um I think that's that's very good
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  and Mary of course has his his moments in the battle uh helping out uh when who also has her best
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  moments so you know who there's some fantastic really I think they've actually have done those
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  moments really well the whole palenor fields aspect and the the the narrative of the battle is told
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  because battles are confusing and a lot of it in the book of course is done as a song um by the
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  Bards of Rohan afterwards so there's a they haven't you know in a sense the they've tidied it
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  all up into a narrative and I think Peter Jackson does have a very good skill of making it so we
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  can follow from character to character in a battle so you don't lose where you are and that
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  that's incredibly difficult to do I'm sure um you know I think that's where is in the hobbit
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  if I can just sort of step out of logging I found that the battle of the five arm is
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  it just went on far too long I thought some of the it was overblown there was too many battlefield
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  it just kind of it's went all over the place this one it seemed to be server narrative purpose
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  all the time rather than here's another cool trick I can do with the chariot so uh and the
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  oliphones are pretty good I think we mentioned last time that the legolas um downing the
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  oliphones was a good sequence because it was earned by the role he was playing in the battle rather
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  yeah right right so let's think about some of the differences between the book and the film
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  bearing in mind we are acknowledging you can't do everything um but it does start
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  there's two multiple starts and multiple ends which I think we should talk about
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  of the starts it um I think the very first start is with um smegel and eagle fishing from a boat
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  which is a surprising start which I think is quite a good way of surprising the audience
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  I do remember finding the violence of actually quite an extended scene of somebody
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  throttling somebody else quite difficult particularly watching it with a family it was one of
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  the scenes I would here comes the mum I would skip that and also skip schilobe just because of
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  the nightmare factor uh from kids schilobe I think he's earned the smegel and eagle thing because it's
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  man on hobbit on hobbit um does seem to be away from the more fantasy cartoon violence
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  so I yeah it's problematic I can see why you want it but I don't enjoy that I don't enjoy that scene
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  there you go yes yeah I agree yeah it is it is difficult to watch and I do so and this is something
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  I'm sure we'll talk about it length a little bit later but showing violence in the shire
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  specifically you know in in a shire related you know landscape something showing the violence
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  that can't take place there because of the ring or as a result of the ring that eagle can work its
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  way into the most pastoral of of settings because of this object of power so I so I can see again
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  like you said like I can see why they put it in there but it is but you're you're absolutely
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  right that is kind of a departure from like you human elf dwarf hobbit on ork violence or
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  cape troll or right usually you're not dealing with humans the the only time you really get
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  human on human as little bit into in two towers for you human characters with warm tongue and
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  some of what he's doing there but and denathor is you know kind of a human on human
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  villainous character in the films this what you're seeing visually but you're right it is
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  it is a departure it is unexpected and difficult yeah I probably wouldn't for my thinking on my
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  little one I won't yeah watching that you know there isn't it all mine are grown up now but at the
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  time when they were sort of older children you know you're sort of watching it with the eyes of
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  what I wanted to see yeah that was an element which I think it's not so much the it's the fact how
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  long it goes on for and how graphic it is that he he's struggling this person so the second
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  sort of departure is from the extended cartridge which is where Sarah man is reinstated the death
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  of Sarah man and there's a speech raised at the top of all thank and then falls down and gets
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  spiked on that sort of wheel thing and what do you think of that scene if yeah if you're not
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  if you're not showing the scouring of the shire and you have to come up if you already decided
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  that you're not doing that for the story that you want to tell then I'm trying to think of what
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  other ways you can dispose of get an end for the character of Sarah man it I mean it's so in some
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  sense you still have you know worm tongue as the disposer in in one way but then what what you lose
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  in offing saramon there is more of the pity of of Gandalf which in his speech in saramon speech
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  at the top of the tower he you know derides Gandalf because you know I don't need your
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  pity right or mercy and you really see that in the book version when you know they just leave and
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  let you know they they let saramon off and give him a chance to still do something right to give
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  having mercy upon him and then leaving it up to him on how he decides to change or not so you do
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  you do miss that and so that that's a moment something that I appreciated from the book that you
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  don't get as much by just watching saramon it is it is a spectacle right and him being impaled
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  specifically on you know his his own machinery like yes I understand you know the the kind of irony
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  of that and it is visually really arresting and I think I understand that it's kind of a visual
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  call back to another one of Christopher Lee's roles as Dracula in a film where he was
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  impaled in in that film so kind of a visual nod to another piece of cinema yeah so
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  it was the theatrical cut didn't have this and so it was a bit random that Pippin just picked up
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  the palantir and that which is a seeing stone in order to set that up so it's better with it in
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  but and also it was it felt wrong not to have a goodbye scene for Christopher Lee didn't it but
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  this is definitely one of those spaces where I think there's room for improvement given a bit more
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  canvas a bit more scope that actually what the saramon survival to end up causing trouble in
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  the shire does is it gives a real sense of how evil just doesn't go away when you throw a ring
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  in a fire you know the damage remains but also it gives Frodo his moment of fullest maturity
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  when even after there's an attack on him he in the right at the door of Bagend he says you were
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  great once and that's his moment of greatness is when he says that and I'm sure we're not
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  for spawning the plot for anybody uh Greenmer then attacks him and then the Hobbit shoot Greenmer so
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  it kind of wraps it up and I would really enjoy seeing that moment because
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  last Frodo's been rising up into being a sort of bigger soul saramon's been diminishing and I think
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  that gives that moment because because saramon is a valar he's he's more than just a wizard he's
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  right almost right he was the sort of archangially messenger of the gods kind of person
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  yeah and that's one of the themes I think that the the film does well with the character of Gandalf
• 30:57
  right just going back to the you know the background information with the valar with uh you know
• 31:02
  we're with Maya right with with Gandalf being a Maya right that uh yes correct let me correct that
• 31:09
  right yes yeah yeah I meant to say Maya the valar are like the gods the Maya are like the next
• 31:17
  next rung down so never less impressed I'm not writing to correct another world that's covering them
• 31:23
  let's see the moment with the art right yes yes with the archangel moment yes so with Gandalf right
• 31:27
  and in and right and in the summer early and you have uh right Oloran who's you know uh uh who
• 31:33
  becomes who's who's Gandalf right embodied uh that he it mentions on the summer early and that he
• 31:38
  has kind of been it suggested that he has an apprenticeship under Niana who's the goddess of
• 31:43
  weeping and wisdom and so and pity and so that's where it seems that Gandalf picks up this idea of
• 31:49
  pity from as this kind of cardinal virtue and then I think Ian McKellen does a really good job of
• 31:56
  depicting this pitiful in the positive sense right somebody who's full of of of pity for others
• 32:03
  and where he has that that in his eyes and his demeanor I think he adds to he really highlights that
• 32:08
  in the character of Gandalf that's latent in the character of Gandalf that's actually you know
• 32:13
  pervasive there you actually see that visualized and then Frodo right picks up that idea when he
• 32:19
  spares Gollum's life later but then you see that I think fully realized with Sarmon or then
• 32:27
  instead of having a you know a Maya kind of teaching him about pity this Hobbit you then have a
• 32:34
  Hobbit whose displaying this you know fully realized sense of pity to this you know other worldly
• 32:44
  superhuman being who was at you know at the height of its power earlier so I so I really like that
• 32:52
  like you're saying you know giving Frodo this moment showing his full moral development so you
• 32:58
  see him as a you know just like courageous development right if you're looking at that as a character
• 33:02
  aspect that's what the film's depict well but in terms of his moral development I think you do get
• 33:07
  a fuller realization of that in the that scene that you're mentioning in the scarring the Shire.
• 33:12
  Yeah this isn't a criticism of Peach Jackson choosing not to do that because I think he just had
• 33:18
  too much material but I'm just reading point where I think the room is to do something different
• 33:24
  and interesting something more yeah that's the point here so that's actually take us to the problem
• 33:31
  of the endings of the film and this is why it doesn't make it as my favorite of them because I
• 33:37
  remember watching it in the cinema and we have a sort of white out when Frodo is sort of passing out
• 33:46
  on the the ashy slopes he wakes up and is in a bed and there's quite a long scene of slow motion
• 33:54
  people coming in and then there's a coronation and then there's a flying up the map and you
• 34:01
  think he's at the end is at the end and then there's riding into the Shire then there's down the pub
• 34:07
  in the Shire with the sense of Sam going off to speak to Rosie Carson then there's Frodo writing
• 34:17
  in a book this is all the end Frodo writing in a book and suffering his ill and then there's the
• 34:24
  ride to meet Bilbo who's going to the shores as well to catch the boat and then there is the long
• 34:33
  scene of farewells on the shores now each of those scenes has something good in it and something
• 34:41
  I wouldn't want to lose but the problem is is there I think there's another blackout scene as well
• 34:47
  another moment where you think oh this is the credit it's going to roll it doesn't leave
• 34:53
  you keep saying is it now is it now and I remember thinking in the cinema this is and I'm a
• 34:58
  passionate fan of you know the whole thing I remember thinking this is going on too long
• 35:03
  that it's just not just not working where do you think what do you agree and what would you have done
• 35:15
  yeah that's a good question that definitely I think visually they do that you're using the
• 35:20
  conventions of film with that especially like a fade to black that's usually denotes the end
• 35:30
  kind of a hard a hard stop on something so so using that yeah certainly I think
• 35:39
  interrupts the sense of flow that could that could be there at some of those scenes so
• 35:44
  it really is difficult because you want to have all of these different moments and so I think it's
• 35:49
  an attempt to to have have it always I'll have it both not just both ways but always right with
• 35:56
  with with kind of having a there's almost yeah like a traffic jam kind of of of endings kind
• 36:03
  of piling up one after another in in one sense yeah and in another sense I mean uh because I
• 36:10
  like I want to live in that world I want to I want to be there and so I get a sense you know after
• 36:16
  each of the endings like can that can I please just get one more it's like an encore you know
• 36:20
  with somebody you like a musician when the I like I like the fact that there is more of it it is
• 36:27
  but it isn't as smooth and I think as narratively as you could and I think yeah so it'd be
• 36:32
  interesting if you had to try to reconfigure some of those different endings is there a way where
• 36:39
  like you did with the more door and a gondor battle struggle sequences is there a way that you
• 36:48
  could intercut some of those farewells that would be compelling um I'm not sure because I think
• 36:54
  for for for endings usually right you want to like linger with the character and have kind of more
• 37:01
  extended dialogue sequences and that's harder to do with intercutting but I want yeah it would
• 37:07
  be interesting to say like are is there a different way to do this um yeah I'm wondering hearing
• 37:13
  you talk actually if the problem is that so much the number of endings it's the fact that we get
• 37:18
  the music and the signals that this is ending it's a bit like your your applaud a piece of classical
• 37:24
  music before the end because you've taken your final orders being it but actually know there's
• 37:29
  a code which you didn't know didn't know to expect and I think actually the signaling the
• 37:34
  filmatic signaling is a bit wrong there um and there's another way of doing it I can I can also
• 37:43
  in this other world I'm imagining of the mini series with much more time you could make a real virtue
• 37:50
  of it and have your um sense of say the message is just because you kill the baddie or break his power
• 37:59
  it doesn't mean that things are over you know that this world and you could actually make that
• 38:05
  a really interesting part about that because it would give more space to breathe for some of the
• 38:11
  relationships which kind of get shunted into sort of a very rapid wedding bells style of um solution
• 38:19
  and actually there's so much more interesting reflections on that um yeah absolutely one signals are
• 38:26
  wrong signals are wrong and that's a film yeah yeah yeah yep yep absolutely and one of the
• 38:31
  endings with with one of those that you don't really get is a moment with a pair that you've
• 38:36
  followed from the beginning which is like a listen gimli right the development of their relationship
• 38:41
  you don't really get a good send off of just those two as a pair that you do have mentioned right in
• 38:48
  in the book that they're kind of going off to uh together for a while and then the possibility that
• 38:55
  the two of them then go into the west together but not not explicitly but that it is said something
• 39:02
  you know some say that yeah this is something that happens on that in the book gimli and legolas have
• 39:10
  an agreement that um legolas will take gimli into fangirl to show him the appreciation of trees
• 39:18
  and gimli takes like this into the caves that helm helm steep the problem they have is that gimli
• 39:24
  doesn't go in the caves at helm steep because of the way the narrative works uh air winds down there
• 39:30
  with the women and children and you don't even know they're a beautiful cave you don't get the
• 39:34
  chance to establish that for gimli this has been one of his peak moments in the journey is
• 39:39
  discovering these fantastic caves um yeah but also one thing i appreciate how difficult this is i
• 39:49
  mean this is we're being very picky because we just reorganize it just you know in our armchairs
• 39:54
  but um one thing that i did think was done well in the extended edition which was cut from the
• 40:00
  theatrical is just a couple of moments with air wind and pharma establishing what they mean to
• 40:08
  each other there's a and i think actually that's one of the ways that's one of the good things that
• 40:15
  you could have done more with because he pitched up some chooses some key moments so that in the
• 40:20
  houses of healing together they have a moment when she when they're not sure which way it's going to go
• 40:25
  um and they find comfort in each other and then they're standing together at the coronation
• 40:30
  and if you're going to do a compressed version of their relationship that's quite a good way to go
• 40:36
  i think the problem with the arrogant and our wind story is they spend the entire
• 40:44
  story apart and they try really hard to bring a connection with some of the um the scenes that
• 40:52
  foretell our wind's future i mean i enjoyed watching those because it delved into material
• 40:57
  from the appendices and that was a bit of you know a geeky thrill to see that but i think there
• 41:04
  is a really difficult problem make yes feel that that relationship math you know it's just they just
• 41:11
  don't have the time together which is a shame it's just the way the story runs um and so perhaps
• 41:20
  yeah perhaps oh i can't suggest putting more in because that would have just made it even longer
• 41:24
  filmed i think that that was one of the less successfully handled love stories because it did
• 41:31
  it sort of vanished really below the yeah the weight of the other narrative right
• 41:39
  yep yeah i agree and especially with somebody as great as as ao and that you spend so much time
• 41:44
  with um earlier you know in the previous film and then on the battlefield i think it would so yeah
• 41:52
  i i think that she could have had a slightly better send off again but again that that would
• 41:57
  that would have extended the runtime yeah running way too far i think i think she gets
• 42:03
  enough it's our wind who gets the she just comes with the wedding um right right i do have those
• 42:09
  scenes where she's leave i mean they i think they they decided to do well let's give her a little
• 42:16
  story arc so that she now is they added the thing about her dying um and that arrogant is also
• 42:23
  fighting for her um because otherwise she'll die as if he didn't need any any more motivation
• 42:31
  i can so they want to make the connection i just feel it's a really difficult story
• 42:36
  to put into a film because this isn't a love well it's not a love story it's a it's a love
• 42:41
  story in the sense that it's a story between friends a love story of friendships the sam and
• 42:45
  Frodo and the fellowship and it just feels it's just difficult um yeah so it's not barren and
• 42:53
  lucian is it which is it's kind of uh what it's you know that would be that's the film i'd like to see
• 42:59
  made that one but do a proper talking love story yeah right i think that the another cut i would have
• 43:09
  made is the goodbye speech of the grey havens just goes on too long and also i think the
• 43:15
  coronation just goes on too long you know there's some yes it does in terms of yeah we'll be
• 43:24
  building the pace towards the end rather than putting on the brakes but anyway that's me being
• 43:29
  picking up okay so um thinking about the things that if we were what other potential do you think
• 43:40
  there would be if you were given the job you get the phone call some big streaming platform
• 43:46
  want you to do the uh return of the king again i've mentioned some things i'd put in where would you go
• 43:52
  yeah what what did you like and not like about the changes that were made to return of the king what
• 43:58
  would you put back yeah yeah that's yeah i'm so that yeah the the scaring of the shy or something
• 44:08
  that keep going back and forth on on whether or not to to include that but i think you're right
• 44:14
  that that that sort of endings seems more better fit for a long form series uh you know limited
• 44:23
  series um just because there's there's there's there's so much that you see there like you said
• 44:29
  what one of the themes you that they didn't follow is would be you know the the long defeat and
• 44:36
  that even when the ring is thrown into uh right the fire's amount doomed that evil still is
• 44:44
  and it's not they haven't changed the world and renewed it and now there's no more death and
• 44:50
  sorrow um uh or evil um so you get and i understand that you know in a film what you're doing then
• 44:59
  you need those kind of stark you know you have you're you know clear evil clear clear good
• 45:03
  and uh how those those two are wrestling in the hearts of some of these individuals how they
• 45:09
  went out and in some instances um but then in the end good wins and you can go home as an audience
• 45:17
  happy knowing that good has been saved uh at least in one world that you've experienced um but
• 45:25
  yeah i but with that i think that the scarring of the shire does show that the story
• 45:32
  the you know that the road does go ever on in in a way right that there are more the stories um
• 45:38
  there's more adventures to be had later and this is like you know sam says that there are
• 45:46
  these great stories you know we're a part of a story and we're continuing on and that these
• 45:52
  stories will continue to exist so if there's one thing that i think that could have been
• 45:56
  done where you could maybe bring in a little bit more of the fact that it's not necessarily
• 46:03
  happily ever after you do kind of get a sense of that in the delivery of sam you know
• 46:10
  he's you know lining up well on your i'm back uh there at the end it is kind of a bitter sweet
• 46:15
  him being back um but i think if you another possible avenue is to kind of lean more into that
• 46:24
  and show you and you him even telling those stories that same sort of speech that he has or
• 46:31
  moving that we're having him telling that to his children about having it which is different
• 46:36
  from the book right that they they ended it in a book appropriate uh place there with sam saying
• 46:43
  i back um but if you wanted to continue some of those themes of each person being part of a narrative
• 46:51
  a larger narrative and then these kind of continually happening and good and evil continue to
• 46:57
  struggle that i i i i i i think there's there's a way that maybe you could include a bit more of that
• 47:03
  thematically and that we're all continuing even the audience included is part of this ongoing
• 47:09
  struggle um that looking back on it other people might say you know you had a heroic life
• 47:16
  when in the moment as you're struggling with this you might not feel that way yourself
• 47:20
  i don't i think that i wouldn't have chose i wouldn't have changed the end i definitely would have
• 47:24
  used that as my last line the thing i would change about sam though is the right at the beginning
• 47:31
  of the film where Frodo and sam fall out i know they did this for narrative purpose to get Frodo
• 47:39
  on his own in she loves the layer but actually i think it works really well in the book where the
• 47:44
  two of them are so terrified um and doing it together i i think that really works that passage
• 47:50
  so i'd like to see a version where they don't fall out on the stairs
• 47:56
  this is where there's a bit of a character wrenching going on um we were talking about how faramid
• 48:02
  in the two towers has a sort of pushing into a more violent version of himself he's back at
• 48:08
  interestingly in this film he's back as the faramid from the book after that little foray on
• 48:13
  the dark side um but in this film it's set up that Frodo is already so sort of impressed by the ring
• 48:22
  that he distrusts sam and that doesn't happen in the book and i think that breaking of the trust
• 48:29
  then actually takes away the power of him right at the end breaking away from doing what sam
• 48:38
  wants him to do i would have i would have held that moment till then the right on the the crack of
• 48:44
  doom literally that even sam can't get through to him and so it's kind of done a bit early um
• 48:51
  so i would that's what i think that i would not would suggest that it's possible to redo and have
• 48:58
  a really good powerful scary you know we've seen the equivalent of the horror films of two people
• 49:04
  going through the haunted house if you're both equally scared it's equally terrifying you don't
• 49:08
  need to be on your own um yeah so that's what i i think i would change that because
• 49:15
  i think that narratively it works better for Frodo to have his moment of breaking right at the end
• 49:21
  right yeah and that's something yeah with with the uh yellow we mentioned these kind of
• 49:25
  triads that are set up right with golem sam and Frodo and you know denathor
• 49:30
  pharamir and and boramir and aragorn arwen and aowen as these kind of triad of triads of these
• 49:37
  dynamics between those different characters that Frodo sam and golem that to make them more to make
• 49:44
  it more of an equal triangle uh having Frodo kind of split between golem and sam and so introducing
• 49:52
  more tension between the characters dramatically i can see why they did that for that purpose but
• 49:59
  in you suit but you in making that choice it's done at the expense of this deep like you said
• 50:05
  trusting um relationship that that has developed between Frodo and sam between all it done so you do
• 50:10
  lose something there it's it's done at the expense of that relationship and the beauty of that
• 50:15
  relationship and that's just seeing that i agree that maybe seeing that point that split done at
• 50:21
  the very end when you think that's the one thing that Frodo has to save him is sam uh and sam you know
• 50:29
  him and his relationship with sam it would be uh yeah i think more more of a gut punch an emotional
• 50:35
  gut punch than than it is uh as it is presently in the film but it's just a trade-up but you get
• 50:40
  that gut punch earlier and so it's where where do you want that falling out but i would like to see
• 50:46
  the version that you suggested absolutely yeah so there's always more to talk about we've talked
• 50:52
  for quite a long time about a film which lasts um three hours or something isn't in the unperturbing
• 51:01
  and there is still more to say but let's think about the achievement so we've been we've been nitpicking
• 51:07
  we love these films it's not it's not a criticism i think it's just quite exciting to think what
• 51:12
  you could do because there is a temptation to say these were such good films that we shouldn't be
• 51:17
  touched you should leave them as they are nobody else need come along afterwards but i do actually
• 51:22
  think when i thought about it length that if you say well let's take a different pace that's
• 51:29
  taken a different canvas i do think there is actually scope and plus some other things which feel a
• 51:33
  bit CGI-like like the the black gate where the the land falls away beneath or but the good army
• 51:43
  that always feels like a video game to me that the way it's shot and everything it doesn't feel
• 51:49
  and i'm sure these days are we've come on 20 years time you know i think you could probably have
• 51:54
  another go at some of the CGI as well anyway um what do you think about the return of the king
• 52:03
  and it's the fact that one all those Oscars was it a deserved Oscar win i think you've got 11 Oscars
• 52:12
  do you remember yes uh third was at third third yeah 11 13 it was it was and i think it was an odd
• 52:18
  some sort of odd or prime number uh that was more than 10 uh i can't remember exactly it might
• 52:24
  have been 13 but yeah i think and again yeah because this was there were all kind of shot
• 52:28
  concurrently um so i i i thought it was well deserved what i didn't you know you didn't have um i
• 52:36
  believe it was uh Ian McKellen um was you know nominated it for fellowship um uh
• 52:45
  for an academy award but not for a turn of the king when uh you know i argue he he
• 52:52
  should have been as well like i i there there are a few kind of
• 52:58
  oversights i think but i overall yeah i think it's it was a a marvel a miracle
• 53:04
  a miracle even of uh of of of cinematic uh
• 53:10
  accomplishment there um so i i i think i think it was i was absolutely deserved and it wasn't just
• 53:15
  you know kind of a uh a pity pity awards being given for something that had just taken so much
• 53:20
  time but just the ambition uh yeah i think it won everything except acting awards
• 53:28
  and there is a problem i think in the academy of giving uh in the Oscars are actually giving
• 53:33
  awards for acting in a fantasy film yeah fantasy sci-fi yeah yeah yeah exactly it's awards to
• 53:43
  people who do things where they're changing their bodies physically but within a real world
• 53:48
  context but if you come a wizard something you know you're you're counting out so i so i i think it
• 53:56
  i think it what it deserved the awards because i think and the awards i think were a recognition
• 54:01
  of the whole trilogy really i think that's what happened yeah it was kind of okay this is our last
• 54:06
  chance we got to do this and i do think they completely rose to the challenge so i mean my last
• 54:16
  comment i want to make on this is basically well done these films deserved the Oscars because it
• 54:23
  was a recognition as the whole of the trilogy and they were Peter Jackson and his team
• 54:32
  brilliantly rose to the occasion they as a talking fan who was worried about what they would do
• 54:39
  for me they really achieved um so much and they were really respectful of the material
• 54:45
  whilst making changes which saved that one necessarily i don't agree with all their choices but i
• 54:49
  can see why they made their choices so it's just because of debate about you know not everybody makes
• 54:56
  this same film that's the whole point so i think they are definitely they're still my favorite films
• 55:04
  but i would i still think there's room for more a little bit more as Frodo says and that little
• 55:11
  bit more is somebody else having another go i think that you know in a decade's time i'd be quite
• 55:18
  ready to watch watch it so good luck to whoever that is right yeah exactly i would love to
• 55:26
  i would i would love to sit you and similar yeah i had soft them it was like i mentioned in the
• 55:30
  first podcast this was my first introduction really into the world of of Tolkien and so it was
• 55:37
  i think for me and i'm sure for a lot of others kind of an ideal entry point into a world you know
• 55:44
  a brilliantly imagined painstakingly created lovingly curated world that professor Tolkien
• 55:55
  spent so much time put so much heart into it's i'm so incredibly grateful that so many people
• 56:01
  took this so seriously created such a you know a a lived in convincing world that i could step into
• 56:09
  and fall in love with and that led me to reading reading the books themselves and then
• 56:17
  everything else has hit the good professor put his put his hand to so it's been really
• 56:22
  riching experience for me so if for no other reason i applaud it and it holds a preeminent place
• 56:30
  in my heart because it introduced me into this broader world that professor Tolkien created
• 56:36
  yeah talking had the theory that we were sub creators and just as my my sort of coda is
• 56:46
  one of the things that Peter Jackson created was an environment a story around the making of the films
• 56:53
  so not only could you watch the films as a fan but you also had the pleasure of doing i think
• 57:01
  it's the best behind the scenes coverage of any film it certainly raised the bike extremely high
• 57:09
  if anyone's followed on it's because of him so that not only was it like the film journey but you
• 57:15
  also had a sense of the journey of the actors and the stage hands and the you know the people who
• 57:22
  the set design and made all the and that in itself was a creation and an achievement
• 57:29
  which i think would and the sense of New Zealand getting behind it as a sort of you know
• 57:34
  that whole fun part of it so i enjoyed watching the creation of
• 57:39
  the film world around it as well and i think that would be very hard to replicate
• 57:45
  in future so that might be in a set what is most unique um contribution in the long run
• 57:52
  we'll see yeah it's a good lecture because next yes yeah that's right i mean i haven't heard
• 57:59
  anyone's in in in the frame for doing it but i would imagine it will happen they've just
• 58:05
  announced that they're doing a anime of Rohan today at the day with filming this so clearly
• 58:15
  other sort of mini series type things are happening um so we'll see and of course we always
• 58:23
  do a section where we decide at the end of our podcast where in all the fantasy world is the
• 58:28
  best place for something we've been talking about kings so the obvious place to go Jacob is to
• 58:35
  decide where in all the fantasy world is the best place to be made king any ideas on that one
• 58:43
  um for me i think i'm going to have to go with um uh the world of fairy in Jonathan
• 58:50
  Strange and Mr. Norell by Susanna Park i think the raven king there uh it's incredibly mysterious
• 59:00
  character incredibly powerful you don't get to spend he only appears oh i don't want to give
• 59:07
  spoilers but you don't see a lot of this raven king if you do or do not see him again i won't say
• 59:13
  for certain but uh if he he appears and he carries a tremendous amount of weight without having to
• 59:22
  do too terribly much so if you're looking for maybe i don't know a a retirement or a vacation
• 59:28
  destination to be a king or you get all of the the glory and the weight um and the kind of aura
• 59:34
  of of awe majesty and mystery um well not having to do a whole lot then uh yes fairy in uh the realm of
• 59:42
  fairy in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell i think is is probably the best you could hope for
• 59:48
  yeah some of the kingship gigs do seem a bit like hard work don't they i mean i
• 59:52
  let's let's hear how it going works really hard and he it's mentioned that he has to go around
• 59:56
  tidying up and you know so reuniting the kingdom it's definitely a post war reconstruction role
• 1:00:02
  that he has um so maybe not so good i think that there's some definite places not to be king
• 1:00:10
  like the game of thrones world right no no not taking that game possibly i would like to be a king
• 1:00:18
  in um or queen it's got to be naniya really big partly that was the childhood thing of you get
• 1:00:27
  to be long live king pizza long live queen Susan and so on which is a great
• 1:00:32
  bit of an ego trip as a child you can imagine yourself being king but i'd actually probably prefer
• 1:00:36
  to be king in um the magician's nephew where you're the first king and it's a cabbie and his wife
• 1:00:44
  who get to be king and queen there and i always thought the idea of being king and queen in a pristine
• 1:00:49
  world where you're setting up the state sounds quite fun so that's where i'd like to go and be king
• 1:00:57
  and there's probably very little pay for work because you haven't inherited any so it's just a
• 1:01:02
  straightforward king gig where you right and establish your call and everything up so that's my
• 1:01:08
  thanks so much Jacob thank you for joining joining me and i hope people have enjoyed
• 1:01:12
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• 1:01:19
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• 1:01:24
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• 1:01:37
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