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Transcript

EP366: Saul Bienenfeld – Defending Really Bad Guys · Respark Your Life

• 0:00
  Saul Bienenfeld: One person wants to ask me, is it easy to defend an innocent person or a guilty person?
• 0:03
  Saul Bienenfeld: As if I know whether a person is guilty or not.
• 0:05
  Saul Bienenfeld: I really don't.
• 0:06
  Saul Bienenfeld: They never tell me, yes, I'm guilty.
• 0:07
  Saul Bienenfeld: Now do your best.
• 0:08
  Saul Bienenfeld: But the truth is, every lawyer gets a feeling.
• 0:11
  Raymond Aaron: Hello, this is Raymond Aaron, New York Times top 10 bestselling author, bringing you Respark
• 0:17
  Raymond Aaron: Your Life podcast, the world's premier podcast to ignite the fire to allow you to live life
• 0:23
  Raymond Aaron: on your own terms.
• 0:24
  Raymond Aaron: every single Thursday I bring you a multi-millionaire world famous
• 0:30
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• 0:36
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• 0:41
  Raymond Aaron: the subscribe button I'll see you every Thursday to re spark your life
• 0:48
  Raymond Aaron: Yes, this is Raymond Aaron with yet another edition of Respark Your Life.
• 0:55
  Raymond Aaron: And I have today with me an exciting character.
• 0:58
  Raymond Aaron: I can't wait to interview him because I love watching law or crime or courtroom or lawyer movies.
• 1:09
  Raymond Aaron: I just love it.
• 1:11
  Raymond Aaron: And now I get a chance to interview one of the top criminal lawyers in America.
• 1:17
  Raymond Aaron: His name is Saul Bienenfeld.
• 1:19
  Raymond Aaron: He's a veteran New York criminal defense attorney with over 35 years of courtroom experience.
• 1:26
  Raymond Aaron: As a former prosecutor turned defense lawyer, he brings a rare inside-out view of the justice system.
• 1:34
  Raymond Aaron: Saul specializes in high-stakes cases, including white-collar and sex crime allegations,
• 1:41
  Raymond Aaron: and is known for telling clients what they need to hear, not what they want to hear.
• 1:47
  Raymond Aaron: On his show, he shares raw stories from real trials, unpacks what really happens during police encounters, and offers practical, no-nonsense insights that could help anyone facing the system.
• 2:03
  Raymond Aaron: Well, thank God I don't face the system.
• 2:06
  Raymond Aaron: I am just in awe of lawyers.
• 2:10
  Raymond Aaron: All my life, I've wanted to be a lawyer.
• 2:12
  Raymond Aaron: and now I get to interview a lawyer who defends really bad guys, murderers, rapists,
• 2:21
  Raymond Aaron: sex, children offenders, sex offenders, like the worst of the worst, even if you know or suspect
• 2:29
  Raymond Aaron: that they're guilty, goodness gracious, how do you do it? I can't wait for this interview.
• 2:35
  Saul Bienenfeld: Yeah, thank you so much.
• 2:38
  Raymond Aaron: Saul, how do you do it?
• 2:39
  Saul Bienenfeld: How do I do it?
• 2:40
  Raymond Aaron: If you're a bad guy, how do you do it?
• 2:42
  Saul Bienenfeld: So it's an excellent question, and it's a fair question, and I certainly get it a lot.
• 2:47
  Saul Bienenfeld: The key thing is, truthfully, I'm not defending a person.
• 2:50
  Saul Bienenfeld: I'm defending the U.S. Constitution.
• 2:53
  Saul Bienenfeld: The U.S. Constitution says that everyone is entitled to the best defense that they could
• 2:56
  Saul Bienenfeld: have.
• 2:57
  Saul Bienenfeld: I am a great criminal defense attorney, and I go ahead and I defend the Constitution.
• 3:03
  Saul Bienenfeld: Now, in doing that, I, of course, meet the client.
• 3:06
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's not just a cookie-cutter defense because the Constitution says so.
• 3:11
  Saul Bienenfeld: So I meet the client.
• 3:13
  Saul Bienenfeld: I talk to the client.
• 3:14
  Saul Bienenfeld: It could be a client accused, like you said, of murder or a crime against a child or a sex crime.
• 3:18
  Saul Bienenfeld: Or it could be a simple white collar.
• 3:20
  Saul Bienenfeld: You know, someone stole millions of dollars from a bank or another person or the fraud of the government out of hundreds of millions of dollars.
• 3:26
  Saul Bienenfeld: But I meet the person and I talk to the person sometimes for hours and hours on end.
• 3:31
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I always find a redeeming quality in every person I've ever met.
• 3:35
  Saul Bienenfeld: And it's that redeeming quality that I focus in on.
• 3:38
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I'd say, this is a person.
• 3:39
  Saul Bienenfeld: This is a person who made a mistake, who has consequences that they didn't realize they
• 3:45
  Saul Bienenfeld: were going to face, and they deserve the best defense that they could get.
• 3:50
  Saul Bienenfeld: And having that burning inside of me that here is a person who deserves a defense.
• 3:55
  Saul Bienenfeld: The Constitution says they deserve a defense.
• 3:57
  Saul Bienenfeld: And there is a redeeming quality that I find in them.
• 4:00
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's easy.
• 4:01
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's really easy to defend these people.
• 4:03
  Saul Bienenfeld: Very simple to defend these people.
• 4:05
  Saul Bienenfeld: You know, one person once asked me, is it easy to defend an innocent person or a guilty
• 4:08
  Saul Bienenfeld: person?
• 4:09
  Saul Bienenfeld: You know, as if I know whether a person is guilty or not.
• 4:11
  Saul Bienenfeld: I really don't.
• 4:12
  Saul Bienenfeld: They never tell me, yes, I'm guilty.
• 4:13
  Saul Bienenfeld: Now do your best.
• 4:15
  Saul Bienenfeld: But the truth is every lawyer gets a feeling.
• 4:17
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I answered that person, you know what?
• 4:19
  Saul Bienenfeld: I'd much rather defend somebody guilty.
• 4:21
  Saul Bienenfeld: When I defend someone who's innocent and I have defended plenty of innocent people, I don't sleep at night.
• 4:28
  Saul Bienenfeld: There's so much pressure on me.
• 4:30
  Saul Bienenfeld: I have to win this case.
• 4:31
  Saul Bienenfeld: There's no other choice.
• 4:33
  Saul Bienenfeld: You know, defending someone who's accused of a crime and you think might be guilty, I will definitely do my best.
• 4:39
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I will hopefully win and I will try to win.
• 4:41
  Saul Bienenfeld: But God forbid I lose.
• 4:43
  Saul Bienenfeld: Okay, justice was served.
• 4:44
  Saul Bienenfeld: I lost.
• 4:45
  Saul Bienenfeld: I can still sleep at night.
• 4:47
  Saul Bienenfeld: The innocent people are the hardest people to defend for that reason.
• 4:50
  Raymond Aaron: You know, you remind me of a lecture I heard from a guy who writes.
• 4:57
  Raymond Aaron: He's a playwright.
• 4:58
  Raymond Aaron: He writes plays, writes scripts for movies and plays.
• 5:02
  Raymond Aaron: And he says that to make a character on the stage or the movie real,
• 5:07
  Raymond Aaron: A bad guy has two bad characteristics and one good characteristic.
• 5:11
  Raymond Aaron: And a good guy has two good characteristics and one bad.
• 5:15
  Raymond Aaron: That's right.
• 5:16
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's all a balancing act.
• 5:18
  Saul Bienenfeld: That's all it is.
• 5:19
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I just need to find that one good characteristic in what's considered a bad guy and focus in
• 5:26
  Saul Bienenfeld: on it and blow it up and explain it to everyone and say, it's really not that bad what this
• 5:32
  Saul Bienenfeld: person did.
• 5:32
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I could defend it because the person is a good person.
• 5:36
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I have always, in the 35 years I've been doing this, I've always been able to find a good characteristic in every single person I've ever defended.
• 5:43
  Saul Bienenfeld: There's always something about a person that, you know what, this person deserves to be saved.
• 5:48
  Saul Bienenfeld: And hopefully after saving a person, they'll continue to do good rather than continue to life a crime.
• 5:53
  Raymond Aaron: You know, there's a funny thing about me.
• 5:55
  Raymond Aaron: I don't know if I've told many people, but maybe once every year or two, somebody will come up to me and say, are you a lawyer?
• 6:05
  Raymond Aaron: Out of the blue. Like if I pick up a hitchhiker, he'll say, you a lawyer? Or if I'm walking through a park, a kid in a sandbox will say, you a lawyer? Like out of nowhere, the weirdest thing, I must have been a lawyer in my previous thousand lifetimes. I don't know.
• 6:20
  Saul Bienenfeld: A lawyerly look.
• 6:22
  Raymond Aaron: I don't know what it is, but I've got it.
• 6:25
  Raymond Aaron: And you are one.
• 6:27
  Raymond Aaron: And so I'm so excited.
• 6:29
  Raymond Aaron: It's like jumping into a TV screen and being able to interview one of the defense lawyers.
• 6:37
  Raymond Aaron: So you must have had, you told me already that your toughest cases are the ones in which
• 6:45
  Raymond Aaron: you're defending someone you suspect or know is innocent.
• 6:49
  Raymond Aaron: But that's a generalization, and I sure get it. I sure get how you can't sleep at night. But is there a specific case that comes to your mind that was just agonizingly difficult for some other reason?
• 7:01
  Saul Bienenfeld: Sure, sure. There are two specific cases I could always remember where I just knew the person was innocent. There was no question in my mind that this person was innocent. One of them was an elderly woman, six o'clock in the morning. She's asleep in her home in Washington Heights in New York City, banging on the door, banging on the door. She gets up to open the door. She's in her nightgown, quite frankly.
• 7:26
  Saul Bienenfeld: And the Secret Service rush in and they arrest her.
• 7:29
  Saul Bienenfeld: What are they arresting her for?
• 7:30
  Saul Bienenfeld: That's crazy.
• 7:31
  Saul Bienenfeld: She's a woman in her 70s.
• 7:32
  Saul Bienenfeld: They're arresting her.
• 7:33
  Saul Bienenfeld: And they're taking her out in her nightgown.
• 7:35
  Saul Bienenfeld: They didn't even let her change.
• 7:36
  Saul Bienenfeld: They let her put on slippers.
• 7:37
  Saul Bienenfeld: That's about it.
• 7:39
  Saul Bienenfeld: And they take her downtown and they book her on a bank robbery charge.
• 7:42
  Saul Bienenfeld: Bank robbery.
• 7:43
  Saul Bienenfeld: All right?
• 7:44
  Saul Bienenfeld: Family calls me.
• 7:45
  Saul Bienenfeld: I said, this is very strange.
• 7:47
  Saul Bienenfeld: I never heard of a 70-year-old bank robber, but anything is possible.
• 7:50
  Saul Bienenfeld: Let me find out.
• 7:51
  Saul Bienenfeld: Let me go do the interview.
• 7:52
  Saul Bienenfeld: Speak to her.
• 7:53
  Saul Bienenfeld: She has no idea what they're talking about.
• 7:56
  Saul Bienenfeld: I'm not a bank robber. I never robbed a bank. I go to the bank. I go to the bank twice a week.
• 8:01
  Saul Bienenfeld: I go to put in money. I go to take out money. That's all I do. I'm in the bank all the time,
• 8:06
  Saul Bienenfeld: but I've never robbed a bank. So I go back to the Secret Service. I go back to the agent in charge
• 8:11
  Saul Bienenfeld: and the US attorney. I say, what's going on with this case? They say, well, she's a note passer.
• 8:15
  Saul Bienenfeld: A note passer is someone who writes a note and passes a note to the teller. The note usually says,
• 8:20
  Saul Bienenfeld: give me all your money in a bag and don't push the panic button. They say, she's a note passer.
• 8:25
  Saul Bienenfeld: And we have it on video that she passed the note.
• 8:28
  Saul Bienenfeld: I said, let me see this video.
• 8:30
  Saul Bienenfeld: I look at the video.
• 8:31
  Saul Bienenfeld: Maybe it's her.
• 8:32
  Saul Bienenfeld: Maybe it's not her.
• 8:33
  Saul Bienenfeld: The video was not very clear.
• 8:35
  Saul Bienenfeld: This was many years ago.
• 8:36
  Saul Bienenfeld: The videos were not that good.
• 8:38
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I was like, I don't think it's her.
• 8:40
  Saul Bienenfeld: You know, I met her.
• 8:40
  Saul Bienenfeld: She doesn't look like a note passer.
• 8:42
  Saul Bienenfeld: But, you know, who knows?
• 8:44
  Saul Bienenfeld: Let me see the note.
• 8:45
  Saul Bienenfeld: So they give me a copy of the note.
• 8:47
  Saul Bienenfeld: And the note is a handwritten note.
• 8:49
  Saul Bienenfeld: So the first thing I do is I hire a handwriting expert.
• 8:52
  Saul Bienenfeld: I said, you're going to determine whether this note was written by this person.
• 8:57
  Saul Bienenfeld: And the handwriting expert came back and said, no, there's no way that this person wrote the
• 9:01
  Saul Bienenfeld: note.
• 9:01
  Saul Bienenfeld: I go to the U.S. attorney, I say, listen, my handwriting expert says it's not her.
• 9:04
  Saul Bienenfeld: They say, the U.S. attorney says, well, maybe someone else wrote the note and gave it to
• 9:08
  Saul Bienenfeld: her, but she passed the note.
• 9:10
  Saul Bienenfeld: So again, I'm like, wow, I'm really trying to prove that she didn't do it, but this is
• 9:14
  Saul Bienenfeld: getting a little more difficult.
• 9:15
  Saul Bienenfeld: So I go ahead and I get the videotapes.
• 9:17
  Saul Bienenfeld: And instead of just watching that one clip of the woman who they say is her, I watched an hour long of the hour beforehand and an hour afterwards.
• 9:26
  Saul Bienenfeld: And what I noticed was there were two Brinks drivers, two Brinks guards who walked into the bank at the same time that this woman, this note passer, walked out of the bank.
• 9:36
  Saul Bienenfeld: They definitely passed each other.
• 9:38
  Saul Bienenfeld: OK, so I said, OK, I'm going to find these Brinks drivers and I'm going to find out who they are and what they did.
• 9:43
  Saul Bienenfeld: So I did a lot more research, found out who they were, and interviewed them.
• 9:49
  Saul Bienenfeld: They were both former New York City Police Department police officers.
• 9:53
  Saul Bienenfeld: They retired, and they're working for Brinks.
• 9:55
  Saul Bienenfeld: Now, New York City Police Department trains everyone in observation and in recognition,
• 10:00
  Saul Bienenfeld: and most importantly, in identification of people.
• 10:03
  Saul Bienenfeld: So I knew that they were highly trained in identifying people.
• 10:06
  Saul Bienenfeld: So I did what's called a photo array.
• 10:08
  Saul Bienenfeld: I took a picture of my person.
• 10:09
  Saul Bienenfeld: I took a picture of people who look similar to her.
• 10:11
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I went to them and I said, listen, do you remember the day that the bank was allegedly
• 10:15
  Saul Bienenfeld: robbed?
• 10:16
  Saul Bienenfeld: They said, yeah, of course we remember that day.
• 10:17
  Saul Bienenfeld: I said, great.
• 10:17
  Saul Bienenfeld: Do you know that you passed the person who was the note taker?
• 10:21
  Saul Bienenfeld: They said, yeah, we remember we were being told.
• 10:22
  Saul Bienenfeld: I said, did anyone ever talk to you?
• 10:24
  Saul Bienenfeld: Did the Secret Service talk to you?
• 10:25
  Saul Bienenfeld: The FBI talked to you?
• 10:26
  Saul Bienenfeld: No one ever.
• 10:27
  Saul Bienenfeld: You're the first person to ever speak to you.
• 10:28
  Saul Bienenfeld: I said, great.
• 10:29
  Saul Bienenfeld: Look at these pictures.
• 10:30
  Saul Bienenfeld: Tell me if you see the person.
• 10:31
  Saul Bienenfeld: Look at the pictures.
• 10:32
  Saul Bienenfeld: They're like, no, the person's not there.
• 10:34
  Saul Bienenfeld: Now, my person, my client was in one of those pictures.
• 10:37
  Saul Bienenfeld: Both of them gave me the same response.
• 10:39
  Saul Bienenfeld: Your person is not in any of these pictures.
• 10:41
  Saul Bienenfeld: So I said, okay, great. So now I take the actual picture of my client and I show it to them. I say,
• 10:46
  Saul Bienenfeld: is this the person? And they say, no, that's definitely not the person that we passed.
• 10:51
  Saul Bienenfeld: Okay. Now I have two witnesses, former police department employees, both came and said,
• 10:57
  Saul Bienenfeld: it's not person. Finally, I go to the U.S. attorney and I explained to them and I show them the
• 11:02
  Saul Bienenfeld: testimony. I show them the witnesses. I show them the interview. They go ahead, they talk to these
• 11:06
  Saul Bienenfeld: two Brink's drivers and they dismiss the case. A great outcome, a great outcome. I couldn't have
• 11:11
  Raymond Aaron: a better outcome if I scripted it myself. All right. Very nice. Their family was in love with
• 11:17
  Saul Bienenfeld: me. Everyone was relieved. Grandma does not go to jail. All right. Grandma went to jail for one night.
• 11:23
  Saul Bienenfeld: It was terrible. I got her out the next day in front of a judge on bail and the case gets dismissed.
• 11:34
  Saul Bienenfeld: Okay. And that another super interesting high stakes case. Okay. My client was accused
• 11:42
  Saul Bienenfeld: of actually raping his 12-year-old stepdaughter.
• 11:46
  Saul Bienenfeld: Oh, God.
• 11:47
  Saul Bienenfeld: She went to school one day.
• 11:49
  Saul Bienenfeld: She was angry at mom and her stepdad
• 11:51
  Saul Bienenfeld: and told the police and told the teacher,
• 11:54
  Saul Bienenfeld: my stepfather touched me, right?
• 11:56
  Saul Bienenfeld: They go ahead, they interview her.
• 11:59
  Saul Bienenfeld: And this is a state case.
• 12:01
  Saul Bienenfeld: This is the district attorney in Brooklyn.
• 12:02
  Saul Bienenfeld: District attorney tells me,
• 12:03
  Saul Bienenfeld: we're going to arrest your client.
• 12:05
  Saul Bienenfeld: I said, I interviewed him.
• 12:07
  Saul Bienenfeld: I went through everything.
• 12:08
  Saul Bienenfeld: I said, he didn't do it.
• 12:09
  Saul Bienenfeld: They said, no, we're arresting him.
• 12:10
  Saul Bienenfeld: They run ahead and arrest him.
• 12:12
  Saul Bienenfeld: He gets out on bail.
• 12:14
  Saul Bienenfeld: And now they have to what's called indict him.
• 12:15
  Saul Bienenfeld: They go in front of a grand jury.
• 12:17
  Saul Bienenfeld: A grand jury is a bunch of people, 23 people.
• 12:20
  Saul Bienenfeld: They have to have 12 people to say there's enough evidence to keep the person over for
• 12:24
  Saul Bienenfeld: trial.
• 12:24
  Saul Bienenfeld: OK?
• 12:26
  Saul Bienenfeld: And the grand jury decides whether to true bill a case, which means that you're indicted,
• 12:30
  Saul Bienenfeld: or to no true bill the case, which means you're not indicted.
• 12:34
  Saul Bienenfeld: So I said, let's do the grand jury.
• 12:35
  Saul Bienenfeld: I'll waive whatever time.
• 12:37
  Saul Bienenfeld: I want more time to prepare.
• 12:38
  Saul Bienenfeld: Let's do the grand jury in a month.
• 12:40
  Saul Bienenfeld: They said, no problem.
• 12:41
  Saul Bienenfeld: For that month, I did two things.
• 12:44
  Saul Bienenfeld: One is I traced his every move for an entire month because the girl said, I don't remember
• 12:50
  Saul Bienenfeld: exactly when it happened, but it happened in the month of, let's say, June of this year.
• 12:55
  Saul Bienenfeld: So from June 1st to June 30th of that year, we traced every single movement from the time
• 12:59
  Saul Bienenfeld: he woke up and the time he went to sleep.
• 13:01
  Saul Bienenfeld: The way we did it was we went through every credit card receipt he ever had.
• 13:05
  Saul Bienenfeld: We went through the locations of where he was on his phone.
• 13:08
  Saul Bienenfeld: Every phone has a GPS device.
• 13:09
  Saul Bienenfeld: We went through the locations.
• 13:11
  Saul Bienenfeld: We went through the location of every withdrawal from a bank, every deposit in a bank, whether he did it personally, whether he did it online.
• 13:18
  Saul Bienenfeld: If he took a picture, all right, on his phone, the picture actually has map coordinates where it was.
• 13:24
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I was able to trace exactly where he was.
• 13:27
  Saul Bienenfeld: And at no time was he ever left alone with this girl.
• 13:30
  Saul Bienenfeld: All right.
• 13:30
  Saul Bienenfeld: And she said it happened when we were alone.
• 13:33
  Saul Bienenfeld: I then hired an architect, a designer, to go into the apartment and to take measurements of the apartment.
• 13:41
  Saul Bienenfeld: Because my feeling was if she was in the apartment with him and she screamed, someone else would hear it.
• 13:47
  Saul Bienenfeld: Or if the mother was in that room next to it, mother would hear it.
• 13:50
  Saul Bienenfeld: And basically show the layout of the entire apartment to the grand jury.
• 13:54
  Saul Bienenfeld: To show that it just couldn't have happened based on the layout of the apartment.
• 13:58
  Saul Bienenfeld: And the third thing I did was I had him have a lie detector test.
• 14:01
  Saul Bienenfeld: Now, a lie detector test is not admissible.
• 14:03
  Saul Bienenfeld: right it's just belted suspenders and he passed the line to detect the test of flying colors
• 14:08
  Saul Bienenfeld: he was not the one who touched this girl okay and i then took the big risk of interviewing the mother
• 14:15
  Saul Bienenfeld: and i said to the mother i said do you think he did it you know here it is this is your your
• 14:18
  Saul Bienenfeld: fiance at the time do you think he touched your daughter and she said no i think my daughter's
• 14:22
  Saul Bienenfeld: lying wow i said why do you think your daughter's lying she says well when she accused him i took him
• 14:29
  Saul Bienenfeld: I took her to the doctor, all right? And the doctor determined that her hymen was intact,
• 14:34
  Saul Bienenfeld: that she's still a virgin, okay? And she alleged intercourse, okay? She alleged full-on intercourse.
• 14:42
  Saul Bienenfeld: But I said, this is great. Would you sign a HIPAA agreement that I get the medical records? And she
• 14:48
  Saul Bienenfeld: did, because she really liked the guy, and she thought her daughter was just making up the story,
• 14:52
  Saul Bienenfeld: which is unfortunate. I took all that evidence to the district attorney. I said, you got to dismiss
• 14:56
  Saul Bienenfeld: this case. I mean, look at all this evidence. And they said, no, we're not dismissing the case.
• 15:00
  Saul Bienenfeld: We still believe her. We believe our victim. We believe that this happened. We believe that it
• 15:05
  Saul Bienenfeld: can happen, that it wasn't a full penetration, that it happened. And everything you're saying
• 15:11
  Saul Bienenfeld: is not going to fall. I said, fine. He's going to testify in front of the grand jury. Okay,
• 15:16
  Saul Bienenfeld: let him testify. I spent another 10 days, three hours a day preparing him to testify in front of
• 15:22
  Raymond Aaron: the grand jury. Exactly what he's going to say. Yes. 10 days, three hours a day. Yes. And it's a
• 15:27
  Saul Bienenfeld: very dangerous thing to have a defendant testify in front of a grand jury because you're locked
• 15:32
  Saul Bienenfeld: into a story. And I don't control that at all. I don't get to ask a question. The way it works
• 15:36
  Saul Bienenfeld: in New York is a defendant walks in, he waives his right, and he goes ahead and he testifies.
• 15:43
  Saul Bienenfeld: He tells his story. And then he's cross-examined by the district attorney. I don't get the question.
• 15:48
  Saul Bienenfeld: I get to stay in the room. That's about it. I don't get to question anything. So I had a
• 15:52
  Saul Bienenfeld: prepare him and prepare his statement what to say. He walks in, he's fully prepared. He does an
• 15:58
  Saul Bienenfeld: amazing job. And what I also told him to say is, I told him, I told him, tell the grand jurors to ask
• 16:04
  Saul Bienenfeld: this girl's mother what happened, okay? Because they're allowed to call witnesses also. And I said,
• 16:09
  Saul Bienenfeld: and leave them with the thought that they're allowed to call witnesses and they should ask
• 16:12
  Saul Bienenfeld: the mother what happened, okay? He does a great job testifying. Cross-examination really did not,
• 16:18
  Saul Bienenfeld: you know, hurt us at all. And when I walked out, the grand jury did the right thing and they asked
• 16:24
  Saul Bienenfeld: the mother to testify. And I told the mother to hang out because I said, you stay here, you know,
• 16:28
  Saul Bienenfeld: maybe they'll ask you to testify. She went in to testify. 10 minutes later, no true bill.
• 16:33
  Saul Bienenfeld: Now, what happens in a case like this is the district attorney is allowed to ask to represent
• 16:38
  Saul Bienenfeld: the case, okay? If they wanted to, they go back to a judge, they get permission. And usually
• 16:42
  Saul Bienenfeld: permission is very quickly given. Yes, go ahead, represent. They find another grand jury, maybe a
• 16:47
  Saul Bienenfeld: month later, and they represent the same case. In this case, the district attorney said, we're not
• 16:52
  Raymond Aaron: going to represent the case. And it was a no true bill. Yeah. Okay. So I love those stories. I love
• 16:59
  Raymond Aaron: them. But I want to ask you a question. In the movies, sometimes the accused looks innocent,
• 17:08
  Raymond Aaron: and the brilliant defense attorney pulls things out of the hat. And the jury says, yeah, he's
• 17:15
  Raymond Aaron: innocent, or he's not guilty. And then there's a few minute epilogue right at the end of the movie
• 17:21
  Raymond Aaron: where the accused admits that he actually did it and that he tricked everybody.
• 17:27
  Saul Bienenfeld: I saw that movie also.
• 17:31
  Raymond Aaron: So does that really happen?
• 17:34
  Saul Bienenfeld: So to prevent that from happening, after a not guilty verdict, okay, I don't talk to the jurors,
• 17:42
  Saul Bienenfeld: Never. I don't want to talk to the jurors because I don't want to find that maybe something went wrong in the jury room.
• 17:47
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I have one drink with my client to celebrate or one meal with my client to celebrate.
• 17:53
  Saul Bienenfeld: Usually I'll invite my wife because I've been working so hard and she deserves a break also to see who I was working with.
• 17:57
  Saul Bienenfeld: And we don't discuss the case. And that's the last I ever see of them or talk to them.
• 18:01
  Saul Bienenfeld: So I personally will never find out those facts. I don't want to find out those facts.
• 18:06
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's done purposefully that way.
• 18:09
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I'm very happy living that way.
• 18:12
  Saul Bienenfeld: But I have heard stories where after a not guilty verdict, the client then says, thank
• 18:17
  Saul Bienenfeld: you so much.
• 18:18
  Saul Bienenfeld: Maybe I'll do it again.
• 18:19
  Saul Bienenfeld: Or some stupid remark like, I got away with it once.
• 18:22
  Saul Bienenfeld: I could try to get away with it a second time.
• 18:24
  Saul Bienenfeld: I'll keep you on a retainer for that.
• 18:26
  Saul Bienenfeld: Something stupid.
• 18:27
  Saul Bienenfeld: But I don't want to hear that.
• 18:28
  Saul Bienenfeld: I don't want to see it.
• 18:29
  Saul Bienenfeld: I don't want to be a part of that.
• 18:30
  Saul Bienenfeld: So the answer is, it's never happened to me.
• 18:32
  Saul Bienenfeld: But yes, it does happen like it happens in the movies.
• 18:35
  Saul Bienenfeld: Not as well in the movies, but it does happen.
• 18:39
  Raymond Aaron: I've got a tough question that's going to require you to put your humility aside and answer my question.
• 18:47
  Raymond Aaron: Yes.
• 18:48
  Raymond Aaron: You got the same lawyerly education that everybody got.
• 18:54
  Raymond Aaron: And yet, you're one of the best.
• 18:57
  Saul Bienenfeld: What is it?
• 18:59
  Saul Bienenfeld: Is there a character?
• 19:00
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's my formula.
• 19:01
  Saul Bienenfeld: My formula is very simple.
• 19:03
  Saul Bienenfeld: Knowledge plus experience equals success.
• 19:07
  Saul Bienenfeld: The first thing you need is the knowledge.
• 19:09
  Saul Bienenfeld: Yes, I graduated law school just like everyone else graduated law school, calls themselves
• 19:12
  Saul Bienenfeld: a lawyer, okay?
• 19:13
  Saul Bienenfeld: But it's a continuing research.
• 19:16
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's reading the law journal every day.
• 19:17
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's being up on all the cases.
• 19:19
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's being up on all the facts.
• 19:20
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's talking to police officers and talking to US attorneys and talking to district attorneys
• 19:25
  Saul Bienenfeld: and talking to FBI agents.
• 19:27
  Saul Bienenfeld: Just in general, talking to them, finding out what their lives are about to understand the
• 19:31
  Saul Bienenfeld: witness that's going to be testifying against your client is very important. It's the knowledge.
• 19:35
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's not just case law, it's personality. And then it's the experience. Doing something over
• 19:40
  Saul Bienenfeld: and over and over again, you're getting better and better at it. And it's not just my own experience
• 19:44
  Saul Bienenfeld: and my own doing. I love watching trials, not ones on TV, live trials. If I'm in the courthouse
• 19:51
  Saul Bienenfeld: and I have an hour break, I will sit in on somebody else's case. And it's very hard for me
• 19:57
  Saul Bienenfeld: sometimes not to jump up in the audience and say, objection, or do it this way, or do it that,
• 20:00
  Saul Bienenfeld: you know. And it's very hard for me not to give feedback afterwards because I'm just the type of
• 20:04
  Saul Bienenfeld: guy like, no, you should have done it this way. You could have done it better. But I learn because
• 20:07
  Saul Bienenfeld: there are sometimes you see and hear somebody who is fantastic. And I start taking notes. I'm like,
• 20:12
  Saul Bienenfeld: this is a great idea. I could use this in another one of my cases, or I could use this, you know,
• 20:18
  Saul Bienenfeld: keep this in the bank, so to speak, and use it in the future, okay? So it's knowledge, experience
• 20:23
  Saul Bienenfeld: equals success. That's how you become successful. Know the facts, do it, do it over and over again,
• 20:29
  Saul Bienenfeld: watch it, and then you become successful. That's the only difference between me and everyone else.
• 20:33
  Raymond Aaron: I'm a professional speaker, and I do exactly the same thing, but I never knew why.
• 20:39
  Raymond Aaron: If I always arrive early for my speech, and usually there's another one or two speakers
• 20:44
  Raymond Aaron: before me, I sit there and I don't listen to them as much as I judge them. I say, oh, that was good.
• 20:52
  Raymond Aaron: I like that line.
• 20:53
  Raymond Aaron: Or no, you killed it with that.
• 20:55
  Raymond Aaron: No, you lost the audience when you said that.
• 20:58
  Raymond Aaron: And I watch it and I learn and I use it.
• 21:00
  Raymond Aaron: Yes.
• 21:01
  Raymond Aaron: Wow.
• 21:02
  Saul Bienenfeld: So we have the same technique in totally different professions.
• 21:07
  Saul Bienenfeld: Yes.
• 21:08
  Raymond Aaron: Okay.
• 21:08
  Raymond Aaron: What is your favorite law or courtroom or defense lawyer movie?
• 21:15
  Saul Bienenfeld: Oh, well, I have a very small attention span.
• 21:18
  Saul Bienenfeld: So I like to watch Law & Order episodes.
• 21:21
  Raymond Aaron: Law & Order.
• 21:21
  Raymond Aaron: Okay.
• 21:22
  Saul Bienenfeld: You know, the whole thing starts and ends, you know, from the crime to the trial and crime to the verdict and, you know, 50 minutes.
• 21:29
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's great. But, you know, I still love A Few Good Men.
• 21:34
  Saul Bienenfeld: You know, it's not really a crime story, but it's, you know, and in the best line, can you handle the truth?
• 21:39
  Saul Bienenfeld: You can't handle the truth. You know, he does that great.
• 21:43
  Raymond Aaron: There's no line better than that in all of cinematography.
• 21:46
  Saul Bienenfeld: I know. I actually have clients that want to go on the stand and yell that, you know, like, no, no.
• 21:51
  Saul Bienenfeld: Don't do that. That's not a good idea. And then a client will tell me after this,
• 21:57
  Saul Bienenfeld: did you notice that pause I made when I was at that question? I'm like, yeah. He says,
• 21:59
  Saul Bienenfeld: that's when I wanted to say, you can't handle the truth. But in my mind, I said it. I didn't
• 22:03
  Saul Bienenfeld: say it to understand it. Thank you very much. That wouldn't have gone over too well.
• 22:08
  Raymond Aaron: Now, one of the most famous trials is affectionately referred to as the monkey trial.
• 22:14
  Raymond Aaron: And I have heard that every lawyer, every lawyer student has to watch that movie.
• 22:20
  Raymond Aaron: So what's the truth? Did you watch it when you were in law school?
• 22:23
  Saul Bienenfeld: No, I did not watch it in law school.
• 22:27
  Saul Bienenfeld: I did a lot of reading on it. I've read the newspaper articles about it, but I did not watch it on.
• 22:32
  Saul Bienenfeld: I didn't watch it when I was in law school.
• 22:36
  Raymond Aaron: So tell me something from the inside of a defense lawyer that I wouldn't think of asking.
• 22:42
  Raymond Aaron: Tell me something like really strange or unusual that you're aware of or you know.
• 22:48
  Saul Bienenfeld: We all have big egos.
• 22:50
  Saul Bienenfeld: I don't think that's unusual or strange.
• 22:54
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's a lot of hard work.
• 22:55
  Saul Bienenfeld: It might look glamorous on the outside.
• 22:57
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's a lot of hard work.
• 22:58
  Saul Bienenfeld: And the public only sees the glamorous part of it, walking into the courtroom, walking
• 23:04
  Saul Bienenfeld: out of the courtroom, or if the public is in the courtroom watching it, there is so much
• 23:08
  Saul Bienenfeld: work behind the scenes that goes on.
• 23:10
  Saul Bienenfeld: It's 99% preparation, 1% perspiration.
• 23:15
  Saul Bienenfeld: And it's all about being prepared.
• 23:16
  Saul Bienenfeld: and it's being prepared for every single possible aspect and outcome that might happen.
• 23:22
  Saul Bienenfeld: You know, I could walk into a courtroom and start questioning a witness and get a different
• 23:27
  Saul Bienenfeld: answer.
• 23:28
  Saul Bienenfeld: I need to be prepared beforehand whether that answer is going to come or not.
• 23:31
  Saul Bienenfeld: So when I ask a question and it's a yes or no question, I have to know if they say yes,
• 23:35
  Saul Bienenfeld: where to go next, and if they say no, where to go next.
• 23:39
  Saul Bienenfeld: So it's all that type of preparation that has to be done beforehand.
• 23:41
  Saul Bienenfeld: And people never see that.
• 23:42
  Saul Bienenfeld: They don't see me in my office preparing for a trial.
• 23:45
  Saul Bienenfeld: All they see is when I'm at trial or the verdict after the trial, or they read what happened in the newspaper, or they see me walking in or out of the courtroom.
• 23:52
  Saul Bienenfeld: But the preparation is the hardest part.
• 23:54
  Raymond Aaron: And the reason that that myth continues is because in movies, they never show the lawyer doing the hours and hours of hard work.
• 24:04
  Raymond Aaron: Right.
• 24:04
  Raymond Aaron: That's not interesting.
• 24:05
  Raymond Aaron: He's just sitting at his desk.
• 24:06
  Saul Bienenfeld: Exactly.
• 24:07
  Saul Bienenfeld: Exactly.
• 24:08
  Saul Bienenfeld: And every once in a while, you have an aha moment.
• 24:10
  Saul Bienenfeld: Like, wow, I didn't think about that.
• 24:11
  Saul Bienenfeld: And now I finally read this case, and I thought about this, and I could use this in my case.
• 24:15
  Saul Bienenfeld: you know and here's how i'm going to use it or i could use it as a as an oral argument after a
• 24:20
  Saul Bienenfeld: hearing you know and it's just it's it's the aha moments that people don't see you know but it's it's
• 24:26
  Saul Bienenfeld: a it's a great moment to have especially when when it works to my client's advantage wow i admire you
• 24:33
  Raymond Aaron: so much i just i don't know maybe i would be a great lawyer i'm sure you would and i went to
• 24:39
  Raymond Aaron: university i love mathematics and so i studied mathematics and physics but i've always wanted
• 24:45
  Raymond Aaron: a lawyer. So I think that Jews make great lawyers because Jews are willing to go against the grain
• 24:57
  Raymond Aaron: to think about things that are maybe unconventional, like 50% of all American Nobel
• 25:07
  Raymond Aaron: physics prize winners are Jewish, even though Jews represent 2% of the population. Is there
• 25:13
  Raymond Aaron: something behind that? Is there some ability that you or I have because our heritage is a heritage
• 25:24
  Raymond Aaron: of oppression, we've always had to fight back. Is there something behind that or am I just making
• 25:28
  Saul Bienenfeld: something up? Well, the joke of an answer would be, we just like fighting and always have to be
• 25:33
  Saul Bienenfeld: right. So, you know, it's perfect to be a lawyer. You know, I love fighting and I always have to be
• 25:39
  Saul Bienenfeld: right. So even with my own wife, I love fighting and I have to be right. And everyone is like that.
• 25:43
  Saul Bienenfeld: And by the way, in marriage, we're always wrong. So it doesn't work out. But the serious answer,
• 25:51
  Saul Bienenfeld: I think, would be that there is an aspect of righteousness and of justice. And the Torah
• 26:01
  Saul Bienenfeld: teaches us, tzedek tzedek tirtof, justice, justice you shall pursue. And there's a sense
• 26:09
  Saul Bienenfeld: of justice that has to be pursued. And we say an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but we don't
• 26:17
  Saul Bienenfeld: mean an actual eye. What we mean is monetary damages. So there's a whole system of justice
• 26:22
  Saul Bienenfeld: that was thought out and written in the Torah. So in order to have the system of justice,
• 26:28
  Saul Bienenfeld: you had to set up courts. And it's very important to set up courts. One of the seven Noahide laws
• 26:35
  Saul Bienenfeld: is to set up courts, to have a court system. It's an actual law that everyone has to have a court
• 26:40
  Saul Bienenfeld: system because that's the only way to pursue justice. So if we're setting up a court system,
• 26:44
  Saul Bienenfeld: and we have to set up a court system, and we have rules of how to set up the court system,
• 26:48
  Saul Bienenfeld: and we already have damages, how to pursue damages, you need lawyers. You need people on both sides.
• 26:57
  Saul Bienenfeld: He can't just bring somebody in, accuse them, and say, okay, you're guilty.
• 27:02
  Saul Bienenfeld: No, he gets a defense, and he gets the best defense possible under both Jewish law and American law.
• 27:10
  Saul Bienenfeld: You deserve the best defense possible.
• 27:12
  Saul Bienenfeld: There's no question about it.
• 27:14
  Saul Bienenfeld: No judge and no prosecutor wants somebody to walk in and just throw up their hands and say, okay, I did it.
• 27:19
  Saul Bienenfeld: That's it.
• 27:19
  Saul Bienenfeld: Take me away.
• 27:20
  Saul Bienenfeld: They actually want to be challenged because if they're challenged, they know that the Constitution was upheld and that justice was served.
• 27:28
  Saul Bienenfeld: And I think that Jews as a people and inherent in their culture and in their religion is this concept of justice and pursuing justice.
• 27:38
  Saul Bienenfeld: And the only way to pursue justice properly is by having a representation on both sides.
• 27:44
  Saul Bienenfeld: And it's a pleasure to represent people and to pursue justice.
• 27:50
  Saul Bienenfeld: Maybe I'll be your partner in the next lifetime.
• 27:53
  Saul Bienenfeld: No problem.
• 27:54
  Saul Bienenfeld: Looking forward.
• 27:56
  Raymond Aaron: Now, you have a bit of, not a gift, but information for us at your website,
• 28:05
  Raymond Aaron: Bienenfeldlaw.com, B-I-E-N-E-N-F-E-L-D-Law, L-A-W.com.
• 28:15
  Raymond Aaron: And your actual phone number and email address are in your website.
• 28:20
  Raymond Aaron: Videos of actual cases, lots of information there.
• 28:25
  Raymond Aaron: And heaven forbid, if you need his services, you can contact him directly.
• 28:30
  Saul Bienenfeld: Please call.
• 28:31
  Saul Bienenfeld: I'm always available to talk to somebody.
• 28:34
  Raymond Aaron: Defending really bad guys.
• 28:37
  Raymond Aaron: Wow.
• 28:37
  Raymond Aaron: Thank you.
• 28:38
  Raymond Aaron: I have wildly enjoyed this interview.
• 28:41
  Raymond Aaron: And I'm honored that you've taken the time to tell the world, or at least my part of the world, what you do and how good you are.
• 28:50
  Raymond Aaron: Thank you so much.
• 28:51
  Saul Bienenfeld: Thank you.
• 28:52
  Saul Bienenfeld: It was a pleasure.
• 28:53
  Saul Bienenfeld: Appreciate it.
• 28:56
  Raymond Aaron: Wow, I sure hope you enjoyed that fascinating episode. Please make sure you subscribe. And
• 29:02
  Raymond Aaron: please tell your friends if you like it, that they will probably like it as well.
• 29:06
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