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Unpacking Social Comparison with Dr. Nicole Lipkin · Auto Collabs

• 0:00
  Paul. [laughs] Question. We're laughing already. [upbeat music] This is AutoCollabs. How do you know all these people?
• 0:16
  [laughs] That's a really great question.
• 0:19
  Look, if some people's superpower is running a P&L like a boss, or operating a business, or taking care of the insurance side, I love those people very much, because none of those things are my superpower.
• 0:31
  [laughs] I just happen to have some kind of strange knack for getting to know people quickly, and apparently in mass, and apparently keeping those relationships going for many- Oh, yeah... many years. Dr.
• 0:43
  Nicole Lipkin, our guest this week, fun fact, I think only you may know this, Kyle, 'cause I just told you last week. She is the very first person I ever interviewed on a podcast, ever. Really? Really.
• 0:55
  How long ago was this? This was about pff, four years ago. I was at the CBT, um, I can't remember what it was called. It was a CBT live event. Forum. Yeah, something forum. Something like that. In Atlanta. Right.
• 1:07
  And- [laughs] Gotta be a forum. The forum-ish. And she was a guest speaker, and I just was like, "Well, that's a guest speaker." She was really good, and I just asked her if I could interview her.
• 1:18
  And she doesn't know this either- Wow... but I was terrified, because at any moment, she was gonna figure out I had no idea- [laughs]... what I was doing.
• 1:25
  I just had two microphones and some headphones that looked official. You know what, though? Uh, methinks, because she's agreed- Set today up [laughs]...
• 1:33
  to be on this, methinks that because she's agreed to be on the show, um, that, A, you left an impression, so you need to give yourself [laughs] a little more credit than that. Yeah.
• 1:43
  [laughs] And, B, typically what I find, uh, e- you know, that I love most about people in, in this kind of category of helping others and whatnot, is they're so understanding of those that are putting in the effort- Mm-hmm...
• 1:58
  who may have no clue what they're doing. Right. Like, they welcome it. So I'm excited to meet her, and I'm, I'm only expecting that that's what we're gonna feel and experience when we talk to her.
• 2:07
  So she w- she kicked off the very first SO2 live stream. She was the first guest, and I slotted her in right there because I knew we needed something different as an industry. I know people expected to see...
• 2:18
  Oh, I'm gonna get my mic up. It's, it's sagging. The mic is- [laughs] I gotta tighten that up. You should get that checked.
• 2:23
  [laughs] Um, so I knew we needed something to, to, like, kind of shake people out of the, the trauma that they were in the middle of, 'cause we didn't know what to do, and all of a sudden she comes up on screen and she starts talking about how human beings process change- Mm...
• 2:39
  from a psychological standpoint. She's actually a practicing psychologist, so she's not just the theory. She actually has a practice, and she speaks and consults with OEMs and CEOs. Wow.
• 2:50
  And she's gonna be talking about mental agility at ASOTU CON, and she's got all kinds of other great stuff going on. She's also, she's a Philly native, too. I, I, you know, that- That's what it... Oh, okay.
• 3:00
  So now we know why... that must be why she's also- Now, uh, now, she- the- there was, like, love at first Philly. Yeah. Right? [laughs] I was like, "And by the way, it's in Philly." [laughs] Yeah. By the way.
• 3:09
  So, um, you know, w- we're really excited to introduce you t- for the first time, and all of us who are going to ASOTU CON are excited to meet her for the first time, Dr. Nicole Lipkin.
• 3:18
  [upbeat music] Nicole, it is so good to be back, um, you know, having conversations about, you know, uh, business and life and, and laughing a little bit. Thanks for joining us today.
• 3:35
  So happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. All right. So the first time that you got to speak to the automotive audience in our world, in the Automotive State of the Union world- Yeah...
• 3:44
  we had just locked down for a pandemic. We had this live stream, and, like- Wow...
• 3:48
  thousands of people showed up, and you kind of brought a little levity to the situation in talking about something that you've really developed, it seems like, over the last two or three years, is this concept of mental agility.
• 4:00
  So, um, you're gonna talk about it at ASOTU CON Live, but give us- Yeah... an overview so we can kind of get introduced to the term mental agility as you- Yeah, totally... as you know it. Totally.
• 4:09
  I, uh, look, I, you know, I think by far, hands down, it is the most important skill that any entrepreneur can develop, leader can develop, human being can develop.
• 4:21
  And it's, you know, in my, in my terms, the way I describe it, mental agility is all about being open and flexible to things that are coming at you.
• 4:28
  But more importantly, it's about, it's about being open and flexible internally with your own stuff,
• 4:34
  because I, you know, it, it, we, we just kind of just keep on going, thinking the same way over and over and over and over. And therefore, we think the same way, we feel the same way, and then we react the same way.
• 4:46
  But when we can shake things up a little bit, and when we recognize that we actually have the ability to shake things up a bit,
• 4:54
  we don't have to think the same way, and therefore we don't have to feel the same way, and therefore we don't have to show up or behave the same way, and that is gold.
• 5:02
  Like, that's solid gold, and I'm, like, going back to solid gold, you know, [laughs] remembering my dad watching Solid Gold. [laughs] Remember that? [laughs] Love that. But it's solid gold. It's like magic.
• 5:12
  Like, when you realize that it do- doesn't have to always be the way you think it has to be, bam, that's like, that's crazy amazing stuff. So you said, you said when we are internally, what did you say? Open and what?
• 5:23
  Flexible? Flexible. What do- Flexible... what do you mean by open and flexible? Unpack that. I'll use a therapist term. Yeah. Unpack that for us. [laughs] Unpack that. So let me, let me, let me unpack that a little bit.
• 5:32
  I'm sure it was packed away for a really good reason- [laughs]... but unpack it for us now. [laughs] I'll do this. And when I, and I, again, I'll, it, this is something I talk about, you know, when I'm speaking about it.
• 5:41
  But when you get, like, when someone says, "Can we talk?" how do you feel? The worst. Nervous. I'm like, "Run." The worst. Run, ah. [laughs] The worst. [laughs] Like, immediately, right? Because of our own crap.
• 5:58
  Because of our own crap.
• 5:59
  Because most of us have been in a situation when we've gotten that te- like, text or, or call or, like, that look, "Can we talk?"We've been broken up with or we've gotten in trouble or whatever it is, so we project our own crap onto whatever that person's saying or texting, and there we go.
• 6:16
  And there we go. So somebody says, "Can we talk?" And all of a sudden our mind is, like, 30 steps down. Down. And it isn't like...
• 6:23
  And it, it doesn't default to, like, "Oh, I bet they're gonna tell me how good of a job I'm doing." [laughs] Right. No. [laughs] It defaults to, "Oh, crap, I'm in trouble," or something bad's about to happen.
• 6:33
  And because of that, then that cycle happens. And, like, it... That... Because of the way you think,
• 6:39
  you show up with, like, dread and anxiety and all that, whatever it is that you feel when you get that, and that psych- And then you just show up that way.
• 6:48
  And when you show up w- full of dread and anxiety, you're not able to psychologically maneuver in a conversation. You're not able to really hear what that person said. You're not able to groove with that person. Mm.
• 7:00
  Because you're just stuck in that dread. And I'm not saying dread's a bad thing. Like, dread's just an emotion, right? It's... There's no good or bad.
• 7:09
  But when you have really strong ugh feelings, you're less able, you're less able to maneuver that conversation and that process. So, you know, that's the thing. Like, that's not being flexible.
• 7:24
  That's just reacting the way you always react. But we have a lot more power, we have a lot more control in the way we show up and the way we think and the way we react.
• 7:31
  So when- Can I think about flexibility- Kyle, before you... P- put a pin in that real quick.
• 7:35
  [laughs] Because I realized I forgot just a really important component, and then I will, I will cede the microphone to [laughs] you and Michael B- But can you just give us a quick background?
• 7:46
  Because I think there are a lot of, uh, folks out on the interwebs who kind of deliver this, um, message of, you know, like, you know, don't overreact and, and own your emotions and things like that.
• 7:59
  But you are different in the sense that not only do you have, like, the educational background, but you have a clinical background where you've just- Yeah...
• 8:05
  spent so much time running a practice and spending time in, in therapy sessions speaking- Yeah... with people, working with, with patients or clients. Um, if you could just give us a quick overview, because- Sure...
• 8:16
  I think that's just a really important baseline to set, um, before we get into Kyle's question. Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 8:21
  So my background, I'm a clinical and organizational psychologist, so what that means is that I have the clinical background, so I've been doing that for years. Like, 20-plus years. I...
• 8:31
  Just, ugh, keeps on getting- [laughs]... more years. So I've been, you know, I've been a clinical and organizational psychologist for years.
• 8:38
  The organizational psychologist, I take that background and I apply it to the workplace, to leadership, to entrepreneurship, to organizational culture, uh, to company culture, to getting people working really awesomely together and grooving with one another.
• 8:56
  Like, it's... That- that's what I do. So my specialty is, you know, leadership development, executive culture, uh, executive coaching, culture work, culture change.
• 9:07
  'Cause the reality is, and I think I've said this to you before, until the robots take over, we're humans working with humans, so- Mm.
• 9:15
  It's all about understanding and having expertise in human behavior, group dynamics, team dynamics. Like, that's the stuff, and that's the stuff that's sticky and icky and gooey that we can work through,
• 9:26
  because that's... It's, it's us. And so when I'm doing this work, it's not about, like, follow these five steps to be a really great leader or have a really great team or have a great culture.
• 9:37
  It's about, get what's going inside here. Get what's going inside your team a little bit. Understand a little bit about human dynamics and group dynamics so we can all maneuver a little bit better.
• 9:46
  And when we groove together, it's awesome. And when we step on each other's feet, the world's not over. Like, right now in our world, we're constantly stepping on each other's feet, and it's, like, ah, the worst, right?
• 10:01
  Like, we can't handle disagreeing with people. We can't handle having different opinions. Like, we are in this place, like, con- like, offending and all of this stuff.
• 10:11
  If we could learn to groove a little bit better and know that, like, it's all about being flexible and open and getting it and understanding our own internal workings, like, we wouldn't be fighting so much.
• 10:25
  Let's just say that. Very good. Yo, look. Thank you. Kyle, it's all you. Blah, blah. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. [laughs] Now, hold on a second. [laughs] Paul and Kyle, I'm gonna need to see... I'm...
• 10:36
  Paul and Michael, I'm gonna need you to see yourself out. I got about 83 questions. [laughs] Okay? Next. [laughs] Mm-hmm. First question. [laughs] He leaves.
• 10:46
  Paul, Paul left the screen, for those not, for those not watching. First thing is... And I'm hoping that I'm, that I, that I, that I give you somewhere to go with this, because when I hear flexibility- Yeah...
• 10:59
  my mind immediately... I played sports all of my life, and I am there, right? And I'm, I'm, I'm thinking of the guy that I used to play tennis with. His name was Ron Dewan. And Ron Dewan- Making a run...
• 11:11
  could only touch his knees when we started in freshman year. With a tennis racket. With a tennis racket. [laughs] Hm. Right? He was like, "Ah," you know? Wow. Yeah. And so
• 11:23
  what, what I wanna, what I maybe wanna unpack is, like, what's the road to becoming more flexible? Because- Mm-hmm... if you become... Like, I'm...
• 11:33
  The way I'm thinking of it is, like, if you become more flexible, your aptitude to approach things that you have never seen or heard before, then, then your flexibility allows you to be a part of them, right? Yeah.
• 11:45
  So, like- Well, when... Yeah... like, what- Well, how did Ron Dewan become... W- whose name I'm loving. Pretty good. I know. Isn't it amazing? How did Ron Dewan become- That's a movie character.
• 11:52
  And I, it's amazing because I can- Totally a character... I can remember it, so. Not a real person. I love it. How did Ron Dewan become more flexible? What did he do? Well, he stretched every day. He worked on it.
• 12:02
  Practice. Right? All that.And, and I- I'm, I'm bringing a little bit of, like, my, my this much knowledge to psychology. Yeah. But, you know, a lot of times we talk about, like, the tools to approach new situations.
• 12:13
  It's like, it's not that there's a prescription for everything that you're doing gets, like, like you said, the one, two, three, four, five. It's, it's an approach. It's a flexibility to understand- Yeah...
• 12:23
  that these tools can be utilized in different elements and different relationships and all that. So I guess, like, what's the path to gaining more f- what's the, what's the I stretched every day- [laughs]...
• 12:34
  like, sports analogy in the, the agility perspective? Yeah. I mean, I, I, I mean, I'm going...
• 12:40
  When we talk and do this, I'm gonna be giving some, like, basic tools that every single person can use and practice, and it's literally about practicing. It's...
• 12:51
  The reality, it's, like, just like your physicality, just like becoming more flexible physically requires a daily commitment to, like, your health, your physical health requires a daily commitment, and you're going to not do it on a daily basis.
• 13:09
  Like, y- you know, you're gonna have weeks where you're like, "I don't want to stretch," or, "I don't wanna work out," or, "I don't want to eat well."
• 13:16
  You're gonna have weeks, you're gonna have months, you're gonna have days where you don't want to, but then if you're committed to it, you get back on track and you do the right things for your body, right? Yep.
• 13:26
  For some reason be- I, and, and it's not for some reason. We can see our bodies. We can see the results, right? But for some reason we minimize the mental stuff because we don't see it. It's not tangible.
• 13:39
  Like, we think about mental health, we think about mental wellness, we, you know, we think about the guy on the side of the street freaking out, screaming, talking to himself.
• 13:47
  We don't think about us on our every day- Mm-hmm... you know, our everyday work and life. But the reality is, and I, I'm coming around to answer you.
• 13:57
  [laughs] The reality is, is mental health and mental wellness and flexibility, mental flexibility and agility, like, that's how you're productive.
• 14:06
  That's how you wake up in the morning and get motivated to get out of bed even. That's how you can function, um, doing the tasks you do when you're mentally well.
• 14:18
  That's how you take care of other people, communicate, have interpersonal relationships. We minimize that when we're comparing it to how big our biceps are or how small or big our butt is.
• 14:30
  Why do we min- Do you know what I'm saying? Why do you think we minimize it? Because it's intangible. It's intangible, and for some reason in this c- in every culture, not for some reason, we've equated it with disease.
• 14:40
  We've equated it with weakness versus looking at the fact that, you know, mental wellness, mental agility is literally what makes you function on a daily basis. It w- it...
• 14:55
  Mental agility is what makes your relationships easier- Mm... because you can flex. Mental wellness is that motivation. It's that productivity. It's being able to move from one task to the next.
• 15:05
  It's all of that good stuff. But- Okay... it's intangible. Okay, so I'm gonna take... Here's questions one through 10. Please. I'm gonna crack this one out. Here we go. [laughs] Hold on just a second. Okay. So, so
• 15:18
  there's, for me, there is a dera- de- a lot of times, and you said, like, the way you think leads to the way you feel, and, uh, a lot of times emotional agility is also tied to mental agility. And- Yeah...
• 15:32
  so, like, i- is, uh, uh, do you think one leads to the other? Or i- is it like- They're that...
• 15:40
  you know, is, does mental agility lead to emotional agility, or is em- emotional agility and awareness lead to a mental agility so you can approach situational and awareness?
• 15:50
  Like, which one kinda leads first, or how do you care for both, because they're both intangible things that we have to approach recognizing our, our historical, like, aptitude to approach new situations, right?
• 16:02
  It, it's like a figure eight. They're attached. It's the same thing. It's like your emotional agility, you know, your flexibility with your emotions.
• 16:09
  And w- what I'm saying is, like, you, you think a certain way, it affects your feelings, and then that, the feelings affect how you show up. It's, it's that. It's all, it's all connected. Like, you can't...
• 16:22
  You have emotional experiences constantly, whether you're aware of it or not. Like, we're all having an emotional experience right now.
• 16:28
  It might be like, you know, it, it doesn't have to be extreme, but we're all having it. We're all experiencing emotion right now, and it's tied into how our brain is functioning, how we're interpreting the situation.
• 16:41
  So it's, it's this. Emotional and mental agili- agility are that. It's all tied in. It just, what I'm saying is that we have way more, we have way more control. We might feel or think something.
• 16:54
  Doesn't mean it's gonna stop. Mm-hmm. But we have way more control in maneuvering how it ends up. It's, and and it's, like, a constant...
• 17:04
  You know, this is an, uh, this is an everyday thing until the day we die, because we're constantly evolving- Mm-hmm...
• 17:10
  until the day we die with everything, um, and constantly learning with everything and forming new neural connections and all of that good stuff. But that, that is, um, th- this is a, just like our physical health, our
• 17:24
  mental agility, our emotional health is a lifelong commitment. Did I answer you? You did. Or did I just leave you- I think you just have us all knowing. You just created more questions. I have... What? So- [laughs]
• 17:36
  Okay, this one. Ready? [laughs] I wasn't kidding. Okay. No, wait. I have to ask one more question, and then I'll hand it over. This might be a long podcast. Y'all hang with us. All right. So- Mm...
• 17:46
  and, and I, I apologize if we go, like, another angle here, because- Go another angle... you said, like, it's a lifelong commitment, and, um, I was just thinking about the flexibility thing, and I just...
• 17:56
  My daughter is eight, right? And my daughter, who's eight, at the beginning of the summer-... couldn't touch her toes. Now, Ron Duan, it took him like four years to be a real contortionist.
• 18:05
  [laughs] We gotta find Ron Duan. I need to meet Ron Duan. Okay? He is the fifth guest of this podcast today. He's amazing. [laughs] He's the one, Juan. But my daughter- [laughs]...
• 18:13
  by the end of the summer, can now, like, like her ability to, to, to stretch quicker, both physically and mentally, is a lot stronger, right? She can move and adjust quicker.
• 18:24
  And you're doing this thing called Hey Kiddo- Yeah... um, I believe is what it's called, right? Yeah... where you are, where you're working with children in their early development, and parents- Yeah...
• 18:33
  to educate and, and, uh, uh, give them the ability to have the awareness of their mind and their emotions- Yeah... to be able to approach everyday situations.
• 18:41
  So, like, maybe this is kind of two part, is, is what are you seeing are the results out of, out of that type of work?
• 18:48
  And how can, as adults, we take the assumption of the mind more of that childlike ability potentially?
• 18:56
  Are, are you, are you taking some of the learnings that you're com- that you're getting from working with kids in that way, and able to pull them, uh, pull adults back to that, you know, ability to, to be more flexible more quickly?
• 19:09
  Because, like, our physical bodies maybe, uh, uh, you know, uh, uh, break down a lot quicker than maybe our mental bodies c- you know, and maybe we can be more childlike in that.
• 19:19
  I don't know, I'm just, like, thinking that might be a possibility. Yeah, no, I like, I like how you're thinking.
• 19:22
  Like, I, you know, kids, kids learn, like when you give, when you teach kids a, a, a language for example early on, they learn it much quicker than if we learn a second language later on.
• 19:33
  You know, kids' brains are just like, they're just taking in so much information. It's not fixed. Like it's coming, coming, coming, and their neural connections are so quick, quick, quick, quick, quick.
• 19:44
  So they can learn this stuff quicker. Um, same with their bodies. Like Ron Duan also had longer- [laughs]... a longer distance to stretch than your daughter [laughs] you know? Yeah. And, and all of that.
• 19:56
  But her body, like it hasn't been through the, the aches and pains of aging [laughs] yet, right?
• 20:02
  So she has, she has that ability to flex and move, and her, her body's still forming and developing, and her mind's still forming and developing. So there's, so there's so much flexibility.
• 20:13
  And she's learning new things for the first time. Like, I think one of the most amazing things about being a parent is like seeing life again through new eyes. Like that's what the- Oh, yeah...
• 20:23
  that joy is like incredible. Mm-hmm. And it's like w- and, and I'm sure all of us can, are experiencing that. Like it's so crazy to see life again, and see the things that you've gotten so used to and are so old to you.
• 20:34
  Like- Mm-hmm... that amazing, magical joy that a kid has. So yeah, the kids have beginner's mind, which is like a whole Buddhism concept, right?
• 20:45
  Like d- approaching things with a beginner's mind, like freeing yourself from that kind of judgment and just approaching it with a beginner's mind. That's kids. Like they are learning new things.
• 20:55
  And so they adapt, and they learn, and they haven't learned yet. I mean, they're starting, eight years old, you're starting. They haven't learned that fear. Like you look at a kid skiing, they're fearless. Yeah.
• 21:07
  You're looking at an adult skiing, that's going through the forest like- [laughs] All I can think of is an ACL surgery, right? [laughs] Yeah, terrifying.
• 21:14
  Like because of, again, our experiences and we're applying the things we've learned, like all of that, they haven't learned that yet. They haven't thought about that.
• 21:21
  Which probably makes you more prone to get injured anyway, if you're overthinking it, right? [laughs] Absolutely. 1,000%. 1,000%.
• 21:27
  So yeah, and like Hey Kiddo, yeah, that's my startup, and it's like super exciting, and we're really at the beginning of it. Um, and it's, it's, it's like a coaching app for parents.
• 21:37
  It's getting parents in that mindset again. It's getting, giving parents that coaching and those tools to open up the lines of communication with their kids so kids are more comfortable opening up.
• 21:49
  Because somewhere along the line we have to change the dialogue around mental wellbeing, mental agility. Like all of our lives have been, and our generations, have been all about like,
• 22:02
  e- even though things are starting to open up, and okay, like that, that, you know, we shouldn't talk about that stuff, or it's a weakness or whatever.
• 22:08
  Dialogue needs to change, and it needs to start at home with parents opening up the lines of communication so it's not weird and it's okay. Yeah. Can I ask you this? Yeah.
• 22:18
  Um, y- you mentioned the word, uh, projection earlier. Yeah. How we kind of project, you know. Yeah. Do you find,
• 22:27
  uh, speaking for myself, uh, you know, and I've opened up about it a lot in, in more recently in, in the last few years, my own challenges with mental health and my journey to recovery, and all of those sorts- Mm-hmm...
• 22:39
  sorts of things. One thing that I've found is that today we have individuals with very strong opinions who seem to have all the answers,
• 22:54
  minus the nuance, minus the context of our own individual circumstances. Yeah.
• 22:58
  So you go onto, let's say you go onto YouTube, and it's expert being interviewed about their mental agility, their toughness, et cetera, and their answers are typically like this, "I don't think about it, I just do it."
• 23:09
  [laughs] Do you find that that's caused a challenge for people, whether it's in the workplace or personally, where now all of a sudden we are accepting somebody else's own expectations of themselves and then judging ourselves against that?
• 23:23
  Great. And then all of a sudden we're cr- Yes... like, like, and I love, by the way, let me preface what I'm about to say by I love the guy. But I know when Gary Vee first came out, documenting his life- Yeah...
• 23:38
  which is 18-hour days and, and he loves it. And he ta- e- even though he's talking about happiness and fulfillment and things of that nature, in the context of documenting his day,
• 23:51
  an army of hustle zombies was created- Yep... who believe, you know, and I've had conversations with many people who are like- Yeah...
• 23:58
  "I saw his 18-hour days and believed that if I didn't work 18-hour days, I was not measuring up. I was not doing-... enough, and then that's caused all sorts of mental anguish on workplaces- Sure... and environments.
• 24:10
  Coworkers saying, "You need to Gary Vee it," and you n- you know, like that sort of thing. Gary Vee is not the, the reason for that.
• 24:18
  I, do you think it's their own like- Ah, it's such a, it's such a great- I don't even know what I'm asking now, but- Um, I know exactly what you're talking about, and it's such a great observation, and I'm about to go down a rabbit hole with you.
• 24:31
  [laughs] Here we go. I'm ready. I got my pen. So- Hold on... as humans, one of our, one of the truths about human beings and our nature and our psychology is we engage in social comparison. It's not a bad thing.
• 24:45
  It's just natural. So we are social beings, so we look around at... Social, we look around at others to gauge how we're doing.
• 24:54
  I mean, when people are doing better, we, uh, we're like, "Oh, okay, I might need to, like, you know, I, I might need to push harder." If people are doing worse, helps us understand, okay, I'm at a place where I'm okay.
• 25:07
  So we socially compare. It's just natural. Now, you take our world... We used to socially compare on the school, in the schoolyard.
• 25:17
  Now you take our world today, and everywhere you look with social media, with videos, YouTube, all of this, the ability to social compare has become so intense and constant and global
• 25:34
  and fake, because you can, you can fake anything you want, and you can Photoshop anything you want- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... that our social comparison is on sp- it's on crack cocaine.
• 25:53
  And the result of it, like, I don't know how else to describe it, the result of it is
• 26:00
  our mental health crisis has escalated among kids and adults to such an extreme point because we don't know how to handle it.
• 26:12
  I wanna tell you a, a study that you probably have heard of that is so ins- it's so tr- it's so insane. Do you know the study that Facebook did that was so unethical? Do you remember?
• 26:24
  They- Yeah, where they, where they, where they basically moved people's moods by their feed? They manipula- yeah, they manipulated the feed without telling people. I'm sure it was in the thing we signed, whatever.
• 26:34
  What they found, right, put more negative feed, people became more negative and started posting more negative. Put more positive, posting more positive. This is emotional contagion. Mm.
• 26:46
  This is something that happens as humans. We, and this is something I'll be talking about. This is something that happens like that. You smile, I smile. You frown, I frown. We mimic one another.
• 26:58
  And it can happen in our electronic communication. It can happen in our face-to-face communication. This is one of the reasons why, you know, we are having global contagion right now from the pandemic.
• 27:09
  Like, this is one of the reasons why we're seeing a rise in road rage, a rise in domestic violence, crazy fights on airplane, like all of that stuff. I'll talk about that stuff a- at the conference. But when, when
• 27:23
  celebrity, celebrities or, or famous figures stand up and make claims, the potential... It can be very motivating,
• 27:36
  but the potential damage that it can have because of that social comparison thing is so profound, um, that, yeah, you can create cultures of zombies- Wow...
• 27:49
  that are like, "I have to work 18 hours, and if I don't, I'm a bad person." Because the way our brains interpret it is, "That's good. I'm bad. If I'm not achieving that, I'm bad."
• 28:00
  Just look at, um, just look at, um, our, you know, the, the, the body image problems in this country. It's, it's,
• 28:10
  a- a- that, a- and it escalated significantly during pandemic with adults getting more plastic surgery now than they've ever had because they were staring at their faces. Teens staring at their faces on Zoom.
• 28:23
  All of a sudden, body image problems escalating. Mm. Like, 'cause we're comparing. Wow. We're looking. Wow. We feel, and we are so quick to say, "That's good. This is bad." So when, so what...
• 28:37
  All of this- What do we do about it? [laughs] So what you're telling us? [laughs] Bye bye. See you later. He's like, "Well-" Have a good day. All bye.
• 28:48
  He's like, "These are all good questions, and I'm gonna leave them to you." [laughs] To you. How does it make you feel? [laughs] Oh, no.
• 28:57
  And so, and so, like, I'm, I'm gonna try to, to, to kind of like bring this to, to a, a, a point in saying like, you're highlighting all these social comparison escalations that are happening now, and you're saying that social media, the pandemic have really just exacerbated a situation and a mental condition that already existed, right?
• 29:18
  But now it's like on steroids, on crack cocaine. And not a mental condition, a normal human psychological behavior. Okay, okay. Yes. Yeah. Like, not like thinking clinically. Yeah, not a condition. Right.
• 29:29
  It's not a condition. Right. It is a human condition, right? It is- Yeah, human condition... and, and so to me, one of the things that helps me get through that is, is being very resolved in what I'm heading toward.
• 29:39
  Mm-hmm. Like, it's an identity issue. Mm-hmm. Um, how do you reconcile that for people?
• 29:43
  Like, how do you give people, uh, like, how do, how do you help people get through that with a sense of healthy identity and a he- a sense of healthy purpose?
• 29:51
  I mean, that is a huge- Like, how do you shift that narrative? Yeah. [laughs] That's a huge question. Just answer it, three words. You just wake up and do it, Paul. That's a huge question. I just do it.
• 29:59
  [laughs] But I think, like, I think it goes- We need Ron Dewan to tell us how he did it. [laughs] Can we get a Ron Dewan counter?
• 30:06
  [laughs] But I think there's like, that is a huge question, but I think, look, I think that-Our identities that we create, our psychological identity that we create, the goals that we create need to be our own stuff.
• 30:20
  It can be inspired from other people that we watch. It can be mo- we can be motivated and, like, learn new things from other people. But someone's, um,
• 30:31
  you know, someone's 18-hour day might be another person's six-hour day. Mm-hmm. Because that's what their- Mm... that's what their psychology and brain is capable of. Mm-hmm. And it's amazing what they're capable of.
• 30:44
  And I think someone's goal, like, okay, what gets me, Paul, what gets you going is, like, having that direct goal. That's awesome for you. Mm-hmm. What might get me going is, you know,
• 30:57
  I, I, I don't know, like, working toward vacation. I don't know. It's like I think we have to... Social comparison, all this stuff is going to happen. I think we need to talk about it more.
• 31:09
  I think the more people know about this stuff, the more they're- Like, being aware that it's happening, right? The awareness of it- It- yeah, when you have awareness-... is the first step...
• 31:17
  when you have awareness, you can be agile. Like, my life goal is to get, it's a big one- I love big goals...
• 31:24
  every single person I ever talk to knowing about this stuff, 'cause the more we know about this stuff, the more we know about psychological biases, the more we know how our brain works, the more we know the kind of social comparison, all this stuff,
• 31:37
  the more we can choose how we're gonna function with it. Mm-hmm. When we don't know it's happening, we don't have a choice. Mm-hmm. I like that. You don't know what's happening, you don't have a choice.
• 31:48
  It's just- Yeah... the, the current of social comparison is just carrying you away, basically. Yeah. Uh. And I think it's just, like, you know, okay,
• 31:56
  uh, you know, even, like, as we all learn, like, with the, with that, what was that movie? Um, the, um, God, the movie about social media where all the tech people spoke about. Oh, the, the, like, documentary thing?
• 32:09
  Social Dilemma. Social Dilemma. Social Dilemma. Like, the more we all learned about social media and, like, the, the bad parts about it, then we could make a choice how we monitored ourselves and all of that.
• 32:21
  The more we learned, like, all of us, not all of us, but, like, eventually we learned, like, how much control our phones have, and the dopamine hit, and that that's more powerful, and the novel- Mm-hmm...
• 32:31
  novu- novel stimulus and your brain is more powerful than this. Mm-hmm. Well, then we can make a choice. But we needed to be aware of that. There was a time when we weren't aware of that and couldn't make that choice.
• 32:42
  So that's why I think talking about agility, talking about mental wellness, all of that, I'm, I'm putting them together, but they're different. They're just tied. Intertwined, yeah. Yeah. The better. The better.
• 32:54
  Like, we should talk about it as much as we talk about our, what we eat and our different fitness crazes and- And as much as we talk about- Make a cult of that... Ron Dewan. As much.
• 33:03
  We should do as much as we talk about Ron Dewan. Ron Dewan. Ron, Ron Dewan. [laughs] [laughs] I'll dance. Try to find a way to- Well, I'll tell you what, Nicole, I, I just, I super appreciate this.
• 33:11
  I've got just, you know, notes on notes.
• 33:13
  [laughs] And I, like, I feel like I'm more aware at this point, and I can't wait to kinda hear you be a part of a SoDoCon and be in and amongst other auto dealers and industry partners- Yeah... that are, that, like...
• 33:26
  It's, it's wild to me because if, if we start at this base level, like, all the things, like, figuring out if digital retailing or direct to consumer, all, like, all that stuff just kind of comes, uh, it comes as it comes.
• 33:40
  And so I can't wait- Yeah... for, for you to kinda kick us off. Uh, and, and thank you so much for sharing- Thank you... this time and your energy with us today. And, uh- Thank you... yeah, we'll see you soon.
• 33:50
  I'm super psyched. Thank you. [upbeat music] Ron Dewan. Hold on. [laughs] So it's Ron Dewan? How do you spell Dewan? I don't think we ever clarified this. [laughs] D-U-A-N. At least that's how I remember it.
• 34:06
  But I don't know if I ever had to spell his name. I just know it was- I was going D-W-O-N. I had everything from close to Dwayne to, like, D-U-O-N.
• 34:16
  But I also, this is interesting, 'cause I just realized his name is Ron Dewan. [laughs] What did you think, it was Rhonda? No, I thought it was- He went Juan... Juan. [laughs] Oh. He thought it was Rhonda. Juan.
• 34:28
  Juan Dewan. [laughs] Oh, man. [laughs] Well, look, that, I, I don't know how Ron has [laughs] just made- become the fourth host of this podcast.
• 34:38
  But, um, without a doubt, that was one of my favorite interviews that we've had so far. Um, Dr. Nicole Lipkin is just, she's just a boss. She's, like, her- she's married to a comedian, right?
• 34:49
  Which really kinda has to lighten the load around the dinner table, especially when she's- Has to... dealing with so much heavy stuff. And he's just like, "This is my source for all my material."
• 34:56
  Well, I, what's so interesting to me about this is that this is not a topic that I feel like we approach in business, let alone automotive, which is how do we approach the every day?
• 35:11
  How do we approach the psychology of interacting with others or interacting with the way that you think about a, a meeting or the way that you approach a new problem?
• 35:22
  And what it really should be is the baseline for every interaction. Um, you know, it's been argued that, like, everybody should see a therapist whether you think it or not. Yeah. And [laughs]... No, that's true...
• 35:34
  and I, I, you know, uh, whether you think you need it or not.
• 35:36
  And, and whether or not that's the, that needs to be the case, w- at least approaching things or having, or having an ecosystem in which you can think about things the way that Nicole has asked us to think about and, and challenged me to, even in, in and throughout this interview, is healthy for whether you're a business leader or you're just getting into a new career role.
• 35:58
  Um, it, and, and that's why I'm really excited for her to set the tone of our event in that way because I think the approach at which people take this myriad of content, especially in an event, is so important to the way that it might actually impact our business.
• 36:14
  Rather than consumption, that, that it's active participation.
• 36:18
  It takes a lot of mental agility to do that.I felt selfish, if I'm being honest, in that interview, 'cause I only asked the questions that I felt like I needed help with personally.
• 36:30
  [laughs] Well, isn't that kind of why the host is the host, right? They're supposed to have a good feel- I guess so, yeah...
• 36:34
  and kind of, like, be aligned with, like, "I think this is what people would wanna know," or I'm just trying to give you too much credit. Y- yeah. I, I don't know. You're like, "No," I, I don't know.
• 36:41
  No, it's because I've read all of her literature and- He's like, "So I know a guy and, and I'm trying to coach him through this problem." I know a guy. He lives in Texas. Short, kind of stocky.
• 36:49
  He's got a beard, sometimes makes funny noises. [laughs] People always say we look alike, but I'm... He's a friend of mine. I'm asking for a friend.
• 36:55
  [laughs] But, like, um, what I really love is the way she was able to position what I think is the next generation, the upbringing of the next generation of automotive, where clearly, um, topics like mental health and workplace wellness and things of that nature are important.
• 37:14
  I would s- They're important to me. I know they're important to you. And those were typically topics that don't get discussed a lot. They were kind of faux pas, like, "Oh, just suck it up." You know, like- Mm-hmm.
• 37:23
  Yeah... d- don't bring your problems to work. Um, our relationship- Mm-hmm... ends with me signing your paycheck kind of a thing.
• 37:29
  But now we have operators in the industry who are our, our age and some of them younger, and these- A lot of them...
• 37:35
  types of things are important for us to be able to understand, maybe make a little bit more normal, less, like, shade on them so that
• 37:44
  we are, as organizations and just as human beings, better equipped to help elevate one another.
• 37:50
  Back in the, when she was on the first live stream, the first ASOTU live stream, she was just starting to think through this topic of mental agility. I wanna go back and listen to that.
• 37:59
  Um, she posed it as being able to hear an opposing view and not react to it, right, with- Mm... the bias, right?
• 38:10
  She said, "And if you wanna know how good you are at mental agility, watch," and that was, obviously, there's, like, a lot going on in the world, an election season and all that.
• 38:18
  She goes, "Watch the opposing news channel and just pay attention to how you react the second you see the anchor, the second you hear the story."
• 38:27
  She goes, "That's gonna give you an indicator of how mentally agile you are." Psh, wow. And think about that when it comes to industry partner- Oh... dealer conversations- This-... dealer OEM conversations.
• 38:39
  I- there, there's so much wisdom in that for automotive right now. Right. It's unbelievable. Oh, it's almost like when I say the three letters, OEM, everybody has a reaction somehow. Right. Right? Somehow. Pretty wild.
• 38:51
  Pretty wild. Well, there's a lot to think about, and we can't wait for you to hang out with Nicole Lipkin at ASOTU CON, and just follow her if you're not right now.
• 39:01
  Um, for Paul Jay Daly, Michael Cirillo, and Kyle Malcier, this has been Auto Collapse. See you next time.
• 39:08
  Sign up for our free and fun to read daily email for a free shot of relevant news in automotive, retail, media, and pop culture. You can get it now at asotu.com. That's A-S-O-T-U.com.
• 39:20
  If you love this podcast, please leave us a review and share it with a friend. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time.
• 39:29
  [upbeat music] Welcome to Auto Collapse. Welcome to Auto Collapse. [laughs] Why are we recording? Are we rolling yet? Not yet.