Latest / The Vietnamese with Kenneth Nguyen / 508 - Why Did He Leave His Perfect American Life For Vietnam? - Dao from Third Culture

Transcript

508 - Why Did He Leave His Perfect American Life For Vietnam? - Dao from Third Culture · The Vietnamese with Kenneth Nguyen

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Vietnamese podcast today.
0:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I have doubt out from third culture of Vietnam.
0:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the podcast now.
0:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank you for having me, Kenneth.
0:07
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a really cool experience.
0:11
[SPEAKER_01]: My pleasure, I have so many questions for you.
0:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been following your work with third-culture Vietnam, and you know, let's start with your name.
0:19
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a really cool name.
0:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It reminds me of religion, don't y'all.
0:27
[SPEAKER_01]: The way, the doubt, all of that.
0:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And we talked about how you now being in Vietnam, you're able to actually pronounce the way it's meant to sound.
0:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's actually really interesting, right?
0:42
[SPEAKER_00]: When I meet people now in Vietnam, it's, I say, that out the right way.
0:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, growing up in the States was like, oh, this isn't down, you know, and I don't, I don't an unseater pronounce it because, you know, maybe they don't really understand it, but it's, it's great to finally like, stepped it.
1:01
[SPEAKER_00]: and be proud of the accent and how to say correctly and the meaning of it, you know?
1:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me for a doubt, the full name is what it doomed out and my parents name me, the path of Buddha, the middle path, you know?
1:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's great to personally like own it now, you know?
1:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's significant of so many other things.
1:22
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like the tip of the spear with so many other things about moving to Vietnam as a Vietnamese person.
1:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're not only seeing everybody around you who look like you, who kind of like speak the same language, and can call your name correctly.
1:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a quiet confidence that comes with that territory.
1:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, for me specifically, right, I grew up in the States, but um, my, my younger childhood was in Minnesota, where I grew up with people just constantly mispronouncing my name, right?
1:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Those usually day-all.
1:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And that does something to a kid, right?
1:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You give you internalize it.
2:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you begin to kind of just accept that.
2:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I guess it is what it is and
2:07
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my name, you know, but now living in Vietnam, like if I don't say it right, they're like, yeah, now, you know, all all this other stuff like on this now and I think it's beautiful that I'm able to like really, really just accept it honor where my name came from and like the meaning of it, it's dope, you know.
2:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, your name can go at least four different ways, right?
2:33
[SPEAKER_01]: In the meaning of a four, five, six different ways.
2:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And if what you just said about it does something to you, I reflect about this quite a bit in my life in the last five years of the work that I do, that
2:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Fortunately, we got this wonderful opportunity to grow up.
2:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It'd be born in America and really read the benefits of what America has brought to our existence.
3:06
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, you think about, like when you go to Vietnam a lot and you live there like you, you think about being snatched away from the roots.
3:15
[SPEAKER_01]: of who you are.
3:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not talking just like from a framework of language and culture tradition, but our bodies are meant to be in the heat.
3:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's meant to exist in the hot climate.
3:32
[SPEAKER_01]: All of these things, I have uncles that in the wintertime here in LA, their bones start to hurt.
3:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And whatever that is, I don't know if it's a psychological thing,
3:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But they get back to Vietnam and all of that aching goes away and you know, my family we talk about how, you know, we're not from really, we're not cold, cold climate people.
3:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
3:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's all of those things attributes that that I think about.
3:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, that's funny that how you speak about it in a physical sense, but coming back and like I guess like just rooting yourself it there's a spiritual sense to it, right for me at these is I've been growing up with this like heaviness that I can't explain, but for me to go back to Vietnam and live here for like four years now, right this it just feels like it's been released.
4:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm close to 40 now.
4:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel the eggs very physically, but now I just feel like there's like this weight off my shoulder or like understanding what it is to be Vietnamese.
4:37
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no right or wrong way.
4:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we all have our own relationship to Vietnam.
4:42
[SPEAKER_00]: either good, bad, sad, you know, damage, but you know, I think it's very important for people like me and you to have this conversation, you know, and share our experiences, share our stories, and sharing our way back to Vietnam.
4:59
[SPEAKER_00]: What is home?
5:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's take it back.
5:03
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you when did you first go to Vietnam and then tell me about the journey of actually moving to Vietnam?
5:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is something that we kind of talked about during our heritage tour last March, right?
5:20
[SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of people grow up with this connection or this non-connection to Vietnam.
5:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We hear about in stories.
5:29
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, at...
5:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It was always this home that I never had a connection to, you know, I grew up in the States, right?
5:37
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, it was like late 2022, after COVID, things like that, where I just felt like, you know, I reached all the milestones in my life, had a good career, you know, bought a home in California, you know.
5:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was unhappy, you know, I felt like something was missing.
5:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just knew that for myself was, I needed a hard reset of,
5:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I want to just live in Vietnam for a year.
6:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a promise to myself, right?
6:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But living here and now fast forward four years now, you know, I'm starting a family here.
6:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's Vietnam has given me so much.
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't regret that decision.
6:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It was one of the hardest decisions in my life.
6:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And through the heritage tour, we talked about that.
6:23
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot of people on the tour where they wanted to move back.
6:27
[SPEAKER_00]: They want to find their purpose.
6:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a pattern that we're seeing more and more and now with young Vietnamese Americans, Germans, or people in France and things like that.
6:39
[SPEAKER_00]: People of our diaspora, where they're like,
6:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, the space of my nationality is not aligning with what I am or who I am as a person and I just want to give it a try, you know, moving back and seeing if I can make life really happen here.
6:56
[SPEAKER_01]: What was your first, what year was your first time?
7:00
[SPEAKER_01]: First time visiting or first time moving, visiting, visiting Vietnam.
7:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I was actually very fortunate.
7:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I was the youngest out of my three brothers, right?
7:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was easy for my parents to take me out of school.
7:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So I came to Vietnam and I'm really, really early age.
7:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I did elementary school, right?
7:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, my first experience, I hated it.
7:19
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, me trying to be like this American kid.
7:22
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, really trying to fit in and things like that.
7:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't like fit now, you know, um, but as I,
7:30
[SPEAKER_00]: kept visiting and like this new version of myself, I started appreciating it more.
7:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Life was slower, was more intentional.
7:38
[SPEAKER_00]: The community is so strong here, right?
7:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that was something I was lacking.
7:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And how did your mom and dad feel about your decision to move?
7:49
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a tough conversation and it was like one of those moments where why are you giving up everything that you worked hard for or the things that we sacrificed then this is a conversation that kind of lines with a lot of people like spoke with you know Is that hard conversation and them telling their parents and that disappointment of like and I gave up so much for you
8:11
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you got to go to college.
8:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to have a good education.
8:16
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you have a stable job.
8:19
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, something was missing.
8:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I knew in the heart of it, right?
8:23
[SPEAKER_00]: There was something that I needed and I needed to figure out on my own.
8:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that was like one of the hardest decisions of my life, right?
8:32
[SPEAKER_00]: But one year turned into a new chapter.
8:37
[SPEAKER_00]: turned into a new community.
8:38
[SPEAKER_00]: That was created with third culture, right now.
8:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I was able to meet my wife, my best friend, my partner.
8:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I don't regret it.
8:48
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, yeah, yeah.
8:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I want to talk about how you met your your wife because I'm interested in that sort of that dynamic for young men and young women out there.
8:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But before I asked that question,
9:01
[SPEAKER_01]: When I think about our parents saying, oh, it's a disappointment, because my brother moved there in 2004.
9:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so he's been there for 22 years.
9:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and he grew up in America, just like me, went to Marines, just like me, we were at USC together, we did everything together.
9:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was the kid who always wanted to be in Vietnam.
9:22
[SPEAKER_01]: As an early, because I was one of the first born kids in my family to be born in the U.S.
9:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was 50 years ago.
9:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when I think about my parents having that feeling of disappointment or very sad about their son, I want to, if other parents are hearing this right now and your kids like thinking about moving to Vietnam, I'm going to say this.
9:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Think about it, reframe it like you work so hard in your life.
9:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So your kid can have an opportunity to actually make the decision to move to Vietnam.
9:55
[SPEAKER_01]: We are living in a very luxury state right now with the ability to pick up and move and
10:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And enjoy sort of Vietnam, I, and you know, of course, nothing is ever perfect, but I think the quality of living in Vietnam, you know, my brother's never 22 years and I challenge anybody to
10:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Paul me up and leave it in the comments about like my brother having a hard life.
10:21
[SPEAKER_01]: He's got a great life and sure.
10:25
[SPEAKER_01]: He's got a lot of American attributes, a lot of Western ideas that he brought to, you know, being a professor at RMIT and being a, you know, businessman.
10:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if his quality of life would have been the same here in America in the last 22 years.
10:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Period.
10:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
10:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I agree with you.
10:46
[SPEAKER_00]: The quality of life here is great, but also at the same time, I think there is another aspect to it where if you come to Vietnam and you can't find like a stable job, you can't find your community or your coming to Vietnam for other reasons, you're trying to escape something, right?
11:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't work out, you know.
11:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Even for me
11:09
[SPEAKER_00]: The state is going to be the next destination.
11:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it norms can be forever, right?
11:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a conversation that my wife and I would have, but I'm happy with where I'm at, you know, my apartment's great, the Ableton Luxuries, but at the same time, I could go across the bridge, go that song bridge, and boom, I'm in the heart of it norms through, you know, and you just get time at everything, right?
11:32
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time as I think,
11:35
[SPEAKER_00]: when us we at cues we move back right there's this honey moon period of the year and then after the year it's like and what do I do you know how can I find work right because the first year is maybe you have like savings account you're just burning through and you're going clubbing you're having fun right but after the second I mean when you start the second year it's like
11:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, what am I doing, what am I doing right and it's it's hard to kind of find work if you don't have like the right profession right I mean the back of is what you teaching English, you know, yeah.
12:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So I.
12:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I've ever talked about this on the podcast, because it just has not come up, but as a Vittgiel, American man, handsome like you, at the prime of your life, moving to Vietnam and meeting, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
12:34
[SPEAKER_01]: she I'm assuming she's Vietnamese national yeah answer is as comfortable whatever if it's not comfortable just let me know but as comfortable as you can describe it because I think a lot of people have this like miss
12:52
[SPEAKER_01]: This preconceived notion about meeting a partner of Vietnam where to meet somebody of Vietnam and all of these things might be a misconception and as one example is you living through that cycle of meeting somebody or probably dating and meeting other people in Vietnam.
13:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell me what that was like for you?
13:19
[SPEAKER_01]: This was in part of the script.
13:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not editing either, so I've just let you know.
13:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It's me care for what you say.
13:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let me think about this because, yeah, I mean, I don't want to get in trouble or say any stigma that's not true, right?
13:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I think for me, just growing up,
13:38
[SPEAKER_00]: There's always this like thought of oh, there's always these older vehicles guys that can't find love in the states And they come back to Vietnam to just find someone in Mary right and I always thought that was like such a bad thing But and I didn't
13:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the year that I came back just to experience live life and just enjoy it, not I'm in itself, I was dating, but I was in dating for like a purpose of finding a life, right?
14:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think when I met her after three months of dating, you know, she told me, I'm not going to do long distance with you.
14:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I knew I was like, okay, I'm gonna stay.
14:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to make this work.
14:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think what that is when you know, you know, right?
14:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
14:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I met such an amazing person.
14:26
[SPEAKER_00]: She's been a great support.
14:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Although that we speak mostly in Vietnamese, right?
14:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes there's a language, but there's a language barrier, obviously, right?
14:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And,
14:36
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of things that I really can't express that I want to express or there's certain words that doesn't translate to Vietnamese or vice versa, right?
14:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But we make it work, right?
14:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And she is like this strong, independent woman and very Western, open-minded thinking and very much of what the success of their culture of it now is.
15:02
[SPEAKER_00]: 90% heard, you know, there was, there was a part of being in the early stage and like, I don't want to do this anymore.
15:08
[SPEAKER_00]: This is tough.
15:09
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, no, just sticking through.
15:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you got some good.
15:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And look at the community created.
15:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I think that's a credit to her.
15:16
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, hopefully she's going to watch your podcast.
15:20
[SPEAKER_01]: She better.
15:24
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, uh, when you have this communication issue of you not having the words and she's not having the words, doesn't that strengthen the the curiosity of looking for the words and the ideas and strengthen the bond to actually learn more about each other's culture.
15:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, or do you guys get lazy and say, yeah, you know, it's just too much.
15:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Um,
15:51
[SPEAKER_00]: No, we don't get lazy at all, you know, you have to put in the work, you know, you care about someone and you really want to understand them, you know, make sure they're seeing their herd appreciate it.
16:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if language fails, I think we find other ways to show that we understand.
16:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And it gives me motivation to be better at Vietnamese, right?
16:15
[SPEAKER_00]: My progression in the language is not linear.
16:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Some days, like, I just feel like I got it down and some days, I'm like, whoa, I just sound like a three year old kid just trying to, you know, really try the language, but
16:27
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think that's a part of the process of coming back home and understanding your identity and things like that and connecting with your roots.
16:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you have to be very careful with the way you answer this next question.
16:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh no.
16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: He thinks that one, one, two, three, four.
16:47
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the cringe traits that you have seen in yourself when you first came back
16:57
[SPEAKER_01]: people that come to Vietnam and I have a list of it because you know that that was me too.
17:02
[SPEAKER_01]: When I first came to Vietnam that I had you know the like I'll I'll start my first thing I remember was every time this like in the first few three trips maybe every time I went back I always had this like oh my god but that's not how we do it in America.
17:18
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you would say it out loud or you would tell your buddies like this is so weird like we don't do this in America and that ignorance
17:28
[SPEAKER_01]: is like embedded in this, I think America is its own kind of like, you know, we're an island almost.
17:36
[SPEAKER_01]: If you think about it, right?
17:37
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't, you know, the majority of us don't travel and have passports.
17:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you know that.
17:42
[SPEAKER_01]: The majority of Americans do not have passports and have not traveled abroad.
17:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you bring this whole culture of you think that America is the world.
17:54
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's like far this, that's the farthest from the truth and you start meeting these backpackers and moving and you start meeting all of these like teachers from Australia, Italy and they sit and they just start to share and talk to you how beautiful Vietnam is and you're like, wait a minute.
18:21
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, oh, we don't do that here, and we don't do that in America, you know, it's so weird to see that.
18:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I'd love to hear some of the cringe trades that you see.
18:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason I ask that is because it helps reframe any expats, not expats, but people who are coming from Vittgios who are coming from America or anywhere else to really think about what they're saying before they get to Vietnam.
18:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, man, I don't know, this is tough, right?
18:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to run some on the toes, yeah.
18:52
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's just coming from America and there's a big deal, right?
18:56
[SPEAKER_00]: We come here in a sense of entitlement that someone owes us something, right?
19:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Or things need to be done a certain way, or it needs me fast, like Amazon next day stuff type of stuff, and I think Vietnam humbled me.
19:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, it's just gonna be what it is sometimes things don't work out and you know, you have to be patient, right?
19:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's the only thing I can really think of, right?
19:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, things don't go always go always a right way for me specifically, but it it helped me kind of like hey America's not the shit, you know, um, the life here and Vietnam's a little bit different, right?
19:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's more slow pace.
19:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more community, right?
19:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You may time for your friends and sometimes you know, you could just sit on a sidewalk and talk.
19:48
[SPEAKER_00]: for the entire night.
19:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's such a cool thing.
19:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And what we're used to in the States is like we work nine to five, you know, we maybe have our weekends off.
19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have PTO, maybe we'll do two weeks off.
20:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
20:02
[SPEAKER_00]: With living in Vietnam, I'm like, my wife and I will just pick up and go on a vacation, right?
20:07
[SPEAKER_00]: We go to Southeast Asia and things like that.
20:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And
20:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Life is just better for me right now, you know, um, but I mean, cringey stuff.
20:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't really take anything out of the bad.
20:16
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
20:31
[SPEAKER_00]: dating or whatnot local girls here it's like all they want something out of you I think that's the furthest from the truth and they're like all these girls just want to date me for my passport and like I don't know man like America's not that great right now you know and I think that's what I think you think what I'm like thinking like I don't know that's a that's a very cringy thing a very cringy thought is that
20:59
[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of women don't want to leave it numb.
21:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the idea of dating a Vittue man has to be reassessed.
21:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of beautiful, strong women, both in America and Vietnam.
21:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the talk about this now, but this idea of patriarchy coming to Vietnam,
21:29
[SPEAKER_01]: there's women who are not down with the patriarchy.
21:33
[SPEAKER_01]: That it's just not, you know, I think women are growing smarter and moving beyond it.
21:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that what we think
21:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Our passport brings is way off.
21:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It's part of this conversation that, you know, I think the new generation of people in Vietnam are like, you know, much more wealthier than we can even imagine.
21:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's another component.
22:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
22:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So they don't need your passport.
22:04
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't need your patriarchy.
22:05
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't need what you think that you're bringing two Vietnam.
22:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a completely different world today.
22:11
[SPEAKER_00]: My wife is a boss, man.
22:13
[SPEAKER_00]: She took me out on age.
22:15
[SPEAKER_00]: She spurred.
22:16
[SPEAKER_00]: She bought me a PS5.
22:19
[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't need the passport.
22:21
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, she has a light.
22:23
[SPEAKER_00]: She's independent.
22:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that speaks to like,
22:26
[SPEAKER_00]: the females here, you know, and that that steak mar that, you know, what we're thinking like, hey, we're coming here, we've got a passport, girls going to just throw them self at us?
22:37
[SPEAKER_00]: No, they don't care, man.
22:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I think deep down as they do want to provide her, but so one emotionally, someone's there, you know, I don't think it's a fine match.
22:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he's still the case, but I don't think that's the case with a mating man.
22:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think, and I'm going to say this, I think one of the things that we can bring as men is perhaps a new reframing of the way men carry themselves.
23:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that could be different, right?
23:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Some men from the West are a bit more progressive and enlightened beyond the patriarchy.
23:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's sort of the beauty of,
23:13
[SPEAKER_01]: being a Vietnamese American man and in the new in the new age, which is we don't necessarily need to follow the standards and the practices of the parent, our parent's generation, the way they viewed
23:28
[SPEAKER_01]: of gender roles in marriage?
23:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's an interesting conversation, kind of, and we probably have very much online and that, because I'm entering to Fatherhood and we talked about actually actually some tips, but what I've been reflecting on is, how do I break the cycle of what my dad might have passed on?
23:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we're moving to something deeper, where it's like,
23:55
[SPEAKER_00]: He tried his best in what he had, right?
24:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think for me, or maybe for our generation as we are the healing generation, we have the opportunity to seek mental health.
24:10
[SPEAKER_00]: We have the opportunity to take time off.
24:12
[SPEAKER_00]: We have the opportunity to read books, journal.
24:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We have our peers to share from.
24:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think for me, for the past few months, I'm like, and how do I become a good dad?
24:23
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, how do I be there?
24:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Be present.
24:26
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I not pass down these like bad traits, right?
24:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I think we need to reframe our mindset.
24:34
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to reframe our role as a partner, as a husband, as a provider.
24:39
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it doesn't have to be just financially, right?
24:42
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, how do we show up
24:50
[SPEAKER_01]: one thing that I always give to new fathers, especially Vietnamese fathers, Vietnamese fathers, one thing that I sorely missed and lacked in my perception as I was becoming a new father, and I'd wish somebody had told me, and now that I know it, I tell everybody, and it's because I went through it, and I didn't know, and my mother,
25:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm not going to blame her, but the way we're raised as men is a direct reflection of our men.
25:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the way our mother approached raising men.
25:27
[SPEAKER_01]: The one, and I say this on this podcast, and I'll always say this, is that less attention to the child.
25:37
[SPEAKER_01]: needs to happen when you are a first father.
25:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, first-time father, you have to pay attention to the your your wife that should priority.
25:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Priority is to make sure your wife is doing well is your partner who just gave birth to your child.
25:53
[SPEAKER_01]: The entire family is going to take care of that child.
25:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody's got the mother is going to take care of the child.
25:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody is going to circle around the child.
26:02
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so many videos that I've seen online of like America,
26:07
[SPEAKER_01]: They make a B-line straight to their fathers of the mother who just gave birth.
26:15
[SPEAKER_01]: The father, your father-in-law would make a B-line straight to his daughter, not to the baby, not to his grandson or granddaughter.
26:25
[SPEAKER_01]: As a father, I would go straight to my daughter who just gave birth to the kid.
26:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, once your kid comes into the world, you go straight to your wife, always take care of her for the next, I don't know, 20, 30 years is take care of your wife first because
26:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to take care of your kid in regardless.
26:54
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just like built into our genetics, right?
26:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But taking care of our wives and making our wives the priority is the most important thing is now what I have learned.
27:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's too late for me.
27:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I got divorced because I just did not, I just was not aware of that and that's my fault.
27:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, two kids in, you know, I didn't realize, but I always like thinking about my children first.
27:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just like, you know, what are they, baby machines and what are they like brought into the world to have your baby?
27:24
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's, you know, there are partners and our wives and we have to put them in pride.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the, that's my single most like advice to new fathers.
27:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, take care of your, your wife first, like come over to her first and worry about the baby.
27:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I remember you sharing that with me, and I thank you so much for that lesson, you know, for being vulnerable and, you know, I think that probably was, you know, a tough part of your life, but you were able to, you know, grow from it.
27:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And the crazy thing is my wife, she may be doing a promise.
28:02
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, hey, before, I mean, after we give birth, right, you check on me first.
28:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, whoa, I like I told you she's the boss man and I respect her, you know, for her to tell me like, hey, make sure to check on me for us because she's going to the craziest totally craziest chapter for life for bodies changing her identities changing, I saw the waves and, you know, the best thing I could do is stay at home, be a good boy.
28:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Queen of the house, just pick up the slack, and just have a rest, because we're not gonna understand that.
28:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if our fathers knew this, right?
28:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, but... Yeah, our fathers were out, you know, they were out with the boys.
28:55
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, okay, this is why the word third culture, Vietnam is so important to me, when you laid out, and this is why I'm talking about this stuff, actually, because it is a third culture thing.
29:06
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not...
29:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It's how do we show up as a third culture and there's so many different ways of it, right?
29:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But this isn't one of the ways is making the realignment of our positions as fathers, husbands, partners in this new third culture that if we're going to come to Vietnam as Vitq, men, then we should be doing this right.
29:30
[SPEAKER_01]: We should be doing it correctly.
29:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll fight any man to the death about this conversation because I lived through it and I failed through it and I just didn't know because I'm not blaming my mother my mother meant the best and she loved me But she was always like your kids come for us, not your wife.
29:47
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, she's like how backward is that she used to say to me.
29:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, you know, I've never had a chance to, and you know, what, what, there's no reason to correct her anymore at this point because, you know, it's done.
29:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all done.
29:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But I still try to do my best to, even if she's my ex-wife, try to make sure that I listen and that she's being heard and that I'm a good partner and we can have good co-parenting, you know, just to show the kids and be a good person to my ex-wife, you know, Kishi.
30:17
[SPEAKER_01]: She's done so much, and she continues to do so much to bring joy and happiness to my children.
30:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, wish that I knew this coming up, because, you know, our dad's totally different.
30:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not their fault either, right?
30:32
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what they knew.
30:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think it's important that you're able to share it, and you're able to share it.
30:38
[SPEAKER_00]: This advice with the community, because some of us, we don't have that role model.
30:43
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, I'm navigating this new chapter of my like a fatherhood being a husband.
30:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't have a good example, you know, I don't have a relationship with my dad, you know, but I forgiving him through my chapter, through my path, through my journey of like understanding my identity.
31:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I was able to kind of just come out of it with compassion and understand that
31:09
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, no language, no money, sorry to the whole completely different life.
31:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he had the tools.
31:17
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, or the time to be like, hey, I need to be a good father to this kid, right?
31:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But now, like, me and you were in our older fans or, you can share these things, you know?
31:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what you do here at, you know, the Vietnamese podcast, it's important, you know, for us to have a voice for us to share our stories.
31:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I for us to listen and learn from one another, right?
31:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's move into the work that you do at their culture Vietnam.
31:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And thank you for being open with that last conversation, because I think it's so important to kind of like, you know, it begin this conversation, this topic with our community.
31:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But now I want to hear about your work at their culture Vietnam.
32:02
[SPEAKER_01]: How did it get started?
32:05
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the engine that moves the financial needle?
32:08
[SPEAKER_01]: All of that.
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I guess I need to confess when you first reached out Kenneth and invited me, my first thought was, I don't want to do that.
32:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and maybe that's weird to say right now, but I think that came from this excuse and things like that, like, all my story is not important.
32:30
[SPEAKER_01]: No one's gonna dwell.
32:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I sat with it a little where
32:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if I can't be vulnerable, if I can't show up, then how do I expect our community to show up, too, right?
32:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's important to have these voices.
32:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's where the culture of it now started, right, where it's important to have these communities.
32:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were very much inspired by what you do, right?
32:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You create space for people like us to talk to have these,
33:02
[SPEAKER_00]: intentional conversations.
33:04
[SPEAKER_00]: These deep, vulnerable sad stories.
33:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I get emotional.
33:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously talking about my dad, but I think that I feel comfortable because I watch your stuff.
33:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you have your series on things that you wish you to set to your dad and things like that.
33:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And I went through it too, you know.
33:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think what we do at the Reculture Vietnam is how do we bridge our experience
33:30
[SPEAKER_00]: to Vietnam, to tours, to workshops, through events and things like that.
33:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the best way to do it's just to storytelling.
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But for me, as the main focus is, it's not about me.
33:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about how do we tell the stories of other people, right?
33:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's very much what you guys do.
33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when I hear you say that you almost, you know, you consider not doing this or you're like, why?
34:02
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think that comes from this idea that my story is not good enough to share?
34:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that, where does that initial gut reaction to somebody inviting you to open up about their life and their life story?
34:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Where is that start?
34:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it started an early age and we briefly went over where as a young Vietnamese kid, just trying to fit in, trying to be white, where I'm just trying to navigate the space and your entire life, people in this pronounce in your name, or they make fun of your food where you bring to lunch.
34:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And like I mentioned, you begin to internalize it and you begin to accept this reality
34:50
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, on the same page or on the same playing field, that's all their nationalities, right?
34:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think for me is, it started there and then the self-down happens, right?
35:02
[SPEAKER_00]: But now it's like through creating this space and being able to share my stories and listen to others.
35:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I found this strength.
35:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a beauty of being a third culture kid, right?
35:15
[SPEAKER_00]: You have this,
35:17
[SPEAKER_00]: this nationality of being Vietnamese, but also you have your identity of being American, German, French, Australian, and hopefully through everyone's journey to maturity, right?
35:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You could pick the good of both, and that's your superpower.
35:40
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, or you could pick the bad qualities of both, and, you know, that you become a villain.
35:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how to really say it.
35:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, that's amazing.
35:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a really good point.
35:51
[SPEAKER_01]: You picked the bad and you become a villain.
35:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You become the bad guy in the story and the story around other people that you're hanging out with.
35:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and we're just repeating that generational trauma, right?
36:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're just passing onto our kids.
36:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think for me is,
36:07
[SPEAKER_00]: how do I just pick the good qualities of both worlds that I've been able to, you know, mature in and be a man, you know.
36:17
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I want to put a spotlight on the work that you do, the work that people at Vitt Settler do, like Tweet Min with Have a Sip and Vitt Success and Vitt Boss Baves and all the people in the podcast and all this entertainment media space, social media, um,
36:35
[SPEAKER_01]: When I listen to some of these podcasts in Vietnamese, entirely in Vietnamese, I learn the language even deeper, like when I listen to have a sip from two men, I think about how wholesome the stories that are coming out of these 70-year-old people, these 60-year-old people that grew up in Vietnam, speak entirely Vietnamese, and are doing major work in their fields.
37:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think about how wholesome and wholesome Vietnam is.
37:05
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't even take a minute to figure out their identity because they are what they are, right?
37:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do have cultural envy when I think about people in their 70s and 80s being so complete and whole in their language skills, in their identity, you know.
37:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that that is ever going to be who you and I are, that we are cemented in their culture,ness, or do you look to kind of like grow into becoming and morphing into a Vietnamese person?
37:50
[SPEAKER_00]: That's tough because it depends on where you're at physically, right?
37:54
[SPEAKER_00]: If it gnome, I could be that.
37:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I could be this one an amazing person, right?
37:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel it every day, right?
38:02
[SPEAKER_00]: But if my wife and I, we plan to move back to the states, that could be totally different, right?
38:09
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just put in this place where we should be placed, right?
38:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And UIs are just Vietnamese-American, right?
38:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, you know, that's a tough question.
38:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the third cultureness is just always going to be cemented in us.
38:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is a thought that I have with my future boy, you know, I don't know how life is going to be for him, but I hope it's easier, you know, with the platforms that's created, you know, to the Vietnamese podcast, what's we men's doing at Vitsetera, what overseas Vietnamese is doing, you know, and what Vick you media is doing,
38:49
[SPEAKER_01]: shout out to Dan and Johnny.
38:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're creating this platform where it's okay to be Vietnamese, you know, and it's it's okay to be
39:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you're proud of your culture and it's cool, right?
39:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I see that trending and it's awesome seeing like, you know, these of our diaspora being able to speak up about their stories, right?
39:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the person that's speaking of this Jason of Wing Dynasty.
39:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, great man.
39:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I literally talked about him in another podcast.
39:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know his name at the time.
39:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like bringing it up and somebody said, yeah, it's Jason.
39:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Woo.
39:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't even laugh fire, right?
39:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And it inspires me to keep doing what we're doing at Third Culture Vietnam.
39:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, it's more than one person.
39:38
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a community.
39:39
[SPEAKER_00]: This is our diaspora.
39:40
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the overseas Venomese.
39:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it was those.
39:45
[SPEAKER_00]: a cool opportunity that you invited me and that both brands good work together because, you know, why are we going to compete, right?
39:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think we're like, kind of disadvantaged already just being like their culture.
39:58
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
40:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me speak to that now.
40:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me speak to that competition.
40:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And I say this all the time to everybody.
40:10
[SPEAKER_01]: If I can have 50 people like you and me, I have 50 lily pads to hop on to their shows.
40:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I have 50 more people to amplify the beauty of Vietnam, the power of Vietnam.
40:25
[SPEAKER_01]: If I had 50 people or 100 people or 200 people who had microphones and had platforms,
40:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd be busy surfing podcasts all day on people's shows.
40:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when I started there was nobody, it was just like nobody I can like go on to shows and you know and I'm like oh my god thank god there's like all these guys Chris Trent travels you know third culture Vietnam and overseas and everybody's like popping up with pop even if you had a podcast for just one year or six months.
40:56
[SPEAKER_01]: and it lived and you didn't take it down off the platforms and you just let it live and people can kind of like archive it and it's still a lily pad that we can jump onto.
41:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And I say it all the time, if anybody has any questions, please reach out to me, leave it in the comments, you know, I will walk you through how this is done and you know, build a community because I think it's so important.
41:19
[SPEAKER_01]: If
41:21
[SPEAKER_01]: if you and then I've seen a lot of people who started out much later than me who grew big numbers, you know, tying wing, the the, oh yeah, designer, you know, you know, started his podcast like a year ago, you know, much later than me.
41:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know he's like up to like 120,000 followers on his, you know, following count.
41:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think
41:45
[SPEAKER_01]: having, and Ty was on my podcast a few times, and you know, having that kind of amplification in our culture is priceless, because as we are growing and we are believing in ourselves a lot more, these different satellite divisions of Vietnamese people is like it's key to blowing up future music acts and films and things that need to be moved
42:14
[SPEAKER_01]: of the world.
42:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Not just America, but mainstream world.
42:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I answer that though?
42:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you think that you are the pioneer like the OG that I set the flame to this?
42:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in the spirit of just not being humble?
42:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
42:32
[SPEAKER_00]: right that I'm just just in the spirit of that yes okay for me to be fully transparent this is you are the first Vietnamese style format of podcast that I listened to and that I guess is a testament to the success of the people that came out there is
42:51
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, what you lay down, right?
42:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, regardless of if they jumped up to the 100K followers or whatnot, I think it started from what you created, the platform you created, people you spoke with, and like I told you, a lot of your stuff, it did inspire what we do at their culture of it now.
43:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate what you do, um, keep doing what you do, you know, you were doing it, amazing work.
43:17
[SPEAKER_01]: doubt.
43:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you appreciate the kind of words, but I do want to, you know, also bring up the fact that we min started her podcast September 2020.
43:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I started October 2020.
43:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So we started a month apart, you know, Vitt Center, how, how from Vitt Center had asked her to to come on to the team.
43:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So we all started her and I started at the same time.
43:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So she's an OG.
43:43
[SPEAKER_01]: in the Vietnamese language space, and I'm the OG in the English language space.
43:47
[SPEAKER_01]: But, but I am not really the OG, when I think about the OGs, I think about, there's Randy Kim over by me, Chronicles, who started out a year before I did.
43:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there is Tracy, who started Vietnam, both people.
44:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a refugee podcast.
44:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So those two actually started a year before I did.
44:13
[SPEAKER_01]: talking about the pioneer, I just put out a whole lot more content than my predecessors Randy and Tracy, because they were doing things very, you know, the edit, they take time, they really, and my format's just different, which is no editing, it's just hit record and then let it rock, right?
44:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So in that way, that kind of like long-form podcast was very
44:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I just want to give credit where credit is due.
44:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And they inspired me as well to keep the mantle going.
44:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And now that we have all these new creators, I am like win dynasty Jason over there.
44:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to have to get him on the podcast and because his storytelling is like on point.
45:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I love what he's doing.
45:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for bringing him up.
45:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, we have weekly video call meetings with each other.
45:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And he loved Vietnam when he was 10 or some, right?
45:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so his story is cool, Matt.
45:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And then him, like, just finding his way back being proud and accepting his Vietnameseness, regardless of being like, third culture, maybe even break that.
45:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
45:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell me about your heritage tours.
45:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's weird.
45:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's the best business model financially, but it's a tour created by us, for us.
45:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'd cap it at 12.
45:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to keep it great, intimate, intentional, right?
45:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a vetting process.
45:51
[SPEAKER_00]: There's times where I've told people, hey, this is not your tour.
45:55
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, can you stop right there?
45:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell me exactly what will prevent you from bringing somebody on?
46:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, man, this is where I'm getting trouble.
46:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So we wanted to create a space for people like us to come back to Vietnam in an intentional way, right?
46:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Regardless, if you don't have a connection with Vietnam, you've never been, or if you've been there many times, but you want to come back where you're just around people with the same questions.
46:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
46:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, they want to share or they want to listen.
46:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And for me specifically is, I, I, I don't feel comfortable just having a non-venomized person or someone of the diaspora on the tour.
46:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the, the funny thing is one of the submissions that we have from March was, no, and I don't know if I could say this.
46:45
[SPEAKER_00]: She said, I, I don't want to join the tour if there's a light person on the tour.
46:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Very fair, that's fair.
46:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Your platform says third culture doesn't, you know, it's fair.
46:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Even our profiles is by us for us, right?
47:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to keep it that way.
47:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was inspired growing up by the brand Fubu.
47:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's our age, right?
47:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I flipped it, right?
47:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Where it's, it's Vietnamese.
47:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to have a Vietnamese team, right?
47:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And when we think about creating the space of coming back to Vietnam,
47:21
[SPEAKER_00]: what does it mean coming back home, right?
47:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And then how can we come back home together?
47:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where we kind of started, right?
47:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And the logistics came in, the actinary came in, but how can we pick these places?
47:36
[SPEAKER_00]: But create an atmosphere where people like us can share our stories.
47:41
[SPEAKER_00]: We could journal, there's prompts and things like that.
47:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a very meaningful and emotional tour.
47:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and the connections you make is just like beyond any other tour company, and I'm not trying to do a pitch, right?
47:59
[SPEAKER_00]: We have two heritage tours already one in July and we just finished one in March.
48:03
[SPEAKER_00]: These people became my lifelong friends.
48:05
[SPEAKER_00]: We kind of see each other in a way that no one else understands, right?
48:10
[SPEAKER_00]: We share things about our parents.
48:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure things about generational trauma, things that we're trying to let go of, right?
48:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And we also share, like, how can we be better parents, partners, and things like that similar to what you and I were talking about, right?
48:26
[SPEAKER_00]: These are the spaces that's very important.
48:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And we try to incorporate that into a trip, a tour, you know, an experience, back to Vietnam, right?
48:42
[SPEAKER_01]: you from bringing somebody on, and I think it's important to talk about what, because I deal with this idea of inclusion and exclusion all the time.
48:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
48:53
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a hard thing because if you're not excluding people, then the people that you are including, what kind of experience are you really giving them?
49:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
49:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the premise of your work really revolves around this idea of third culture.
49:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that if you do bring in non- Vietnamese people or people who are not part of the diaspora,
49:18
[SPEAKER_01]: You know how they're watering down the experience and it just becomes a regular tour, right?
49:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not really a heritage tour for the people that are on this tour.
49:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, absolutely, from a financial standpoint, great, yeah, we'll take everyone, you know?
49:35
[SPEAKER_00]: But just thinking back is this is something that I wish that was around when I was again, this experience where I'm able to come back to Vietnam, explore the north, central south, go to these cities, learn from these artisans and things like that.
49:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Be it around people that just look like me, sound like me, how the same concerns, right?
49:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the reflective circles, like something's much deeper, right?
50:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Where it gets emotional, people cry, and things like that.
50:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's important for us to show up from one another and be vulnerable.
50:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you ever think about opening it up to a more general tour and not so specific?
50:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, creating another program entirely.
50:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe in the future, but right now, I think this is what's important to me.
50:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's what's important to our community.
50:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's a space that a lot of us really want, but we don't get the opportunity to have in this world, right?
50:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Where, I think sometimes inclusion
50:50
[SPEAKER_00]: a great breeding ground for us to kind of just be vulnerable and you know kind of just like going like hey I'm not any judge and I can share this with you right and I trust you and you're going to hold in and you're going to listen to it and I think that's important but I mean just just to share also is the July tour we had someone that wasn't Vietnamese he was talking
51:12
[SPEAKER_00]: but the reason why he wanted to join us, he is in healthcare.
51:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to say his name, but shout out to the listeners, but he wanted to help his patients.
51:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of his patients are ready to be.
51:25
[SPEAKER_00]: His language skills, speaking that it means better than mine.
51:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I was so shocked, but also a reminder, I was like, I need to be more proud of my heritage because he took on our
51:40
[SPEAKER_00]: right and even for our march tour we had someone that was from Singapore.
51:45
[SPEAKER_00]: He's learning Vietnamese.
51:46
[SPEAKER_00]: He's coming back to Vietnam and even said in the first day like even though I'm not I'm the only person that not Vietnamese on this tour I feel in my blood you know I think there is exceptions right and that's why we have like this form the vetting process because you know it's important to create this space
52:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Since you've only done two, can you walk me through the idea, the premise, before you did number one, and then how it changed to go to number two, and then what is changing and evolving as you're planning and thinking about the third one?
52:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think the first one just came with the, I mean, it's not a simple question, right?
52:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's, what doesn't mean to come home?
52:36
[SPEAKER_00]: as I mentioned before and then how do we come home together and how do we make it a different type of tour where you're not just going to a destination, you're not just trying good food, you're not taking photos and posting on Instagram or whatnot, you know, it's it's how do we make this trip where they take more home that's something like meaningful and it kind of changes your life, right?
53:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And just moving forward is, how do we keep creating that space where it just feels safe, you know, and that people like us could have these conversations and come back to their normal life wherever they're landing, right?
53:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And be better, right?
53:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Feel better.
53:21
[SPEAKER_00]: be more clear and kind of just have this weight lifted off where you're not the only person that's going through this, you're not the only person that feels like you're not fitting in or why I'm trying to be a certain, you know, nationality right?
53:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's where we're trying to focus on for future tours.
53:39
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we keep creating these experiences where people show for one another?
53:44
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, and just remind each other that there's more than one way to be Vietnamese, right?
53:50
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no right or wrong way.
53:52
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think we're just trying our best and just creating the space where we could share these stories and be vulnerable.
54:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's just powerful in itself, right?
54:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And lastly, tell me about the, I think you have meetups too, right?
54:10
[SPEAKER_01]: You have a community that you've built because, you know, you look on your Instagram page and you, you know, there's all kinds of things happening beyond the heritage tour.
54:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, we do year-round Saigon tours, but for Saigon four hours, it's not much you can do and that it's deep, right?
54:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So what we're trying to create is for people that kind of join our heritage tour, whether it's too long, or it's too expensive, right?
54:38
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to create more workshops, identity workshops, small spaces where
54:43
[SPEAKER_00]: people that local Vietnamese can join, but also people that are, you know, vehicles like me living a bit nom, you know, how do we kind of just create a space room because share these stories?
54:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, I mean, somewhere to what you're doing, Vietnamese podcast, but we're trying to create a group.
54:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And
55:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And just like let each other know, it's okay to be vulnerable.
55:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So okay to show up as you are in perfect having these deep questions that you've been asking yourself in your entire life, right?
55:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think for us is, you know, you're seeing your herd, I got you, you know, you don't have to carry this alone.
55:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, just understanding your identity, your culture is just, it's a lifelong journey.
55:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think I'll ever
55:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, thank you so much for sharing and spending the time and agreeing to come on to the podcast.
55:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that you had reservations initially and I'm glad that you overcame it and I look forward to many, many, many more years of, you know,
55:49
[SPEAKER_01]: either collaboration or a conversation or any type of connection that we can put out into the world and show that the Vietnamese community has unity and I know it's not perfect.
56:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I know there's trauma and there's hurt all everywhere that you'd look and turn.
56:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have history with each others and you know, when you dig deep into each one of our relationships with each other, there's all kinds of scars, but I hope that we can continually grow and do better in our partnerships and again, thank you for coming on to the podcast today.
56:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I thank you for the opportunity for giving me a way to kind of step up my comfort zone.
56:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And then just remind me that, you know, it is okay to be vulnerable.
56:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay to share your stories.
56:40
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, whether you think it's, you know, anyone cares or not, right?
56:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's important that what we're doing and where we're at in our life, that we do share our mistakes.
56:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we do share about our relationships with
56:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Our family, our parents, or even our relationship with Vietnam, and hopefully through these stories, we're able to heal and become better.
57:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I appreciate what you're doing, keeping on it.
57:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And hopefully we can do some great stuff together.
57:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, advice versus I think that you're doing a great job.
57:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And we will continue to have discourse and conversation.
57:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And hit me up whenever you have anything that you want to put out there, happy to amplify you or if you have other podcasts that are coming up that doing good work, just let me know.
57:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
57:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to hit you up for a father-hit tip.
57:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, any time.
57:40
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
57:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks a lot, Delp.
57:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Brad.
57:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening to the Vietnamese with Kenneth Winn.
57:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Special thanks to Brittany Tran, to Jane Winn, Katherine Winn, Tina Fam, Sydney Jamie, and Crystal Tran.
57:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Please find us on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at the Vietnamese podcast.