Latest / Becker’s Healthcare Podcast / Dr. Ben Schwartz on Advancing Academic Medicine, AI, and Leadership at Banner Health

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Dr. Ben Schwartz on Advancing Academic Medicine, AI, and Leadership at Banner Health · Becker’s Healthcare Podcast

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  - There's a small circle of people who truly
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  - visit beckershospitalreview.com
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  - This is Scott Decker with the Beckers Health
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  - Care podcast.
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  - Thrilled today to be joined by a brilliant
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  - physician leader. We're joined today by doctor Benjamin
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  - Schwartz. Doctor Schwartz is the president academic delivering
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  - interim CEO of Banner University Medical Group. Doctor
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  - Schwartz, thrilled to have you with us today.
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  - Can you tell us a little bit about
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  - yourself and your background
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  - and your career?
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  - And, obviously, Banner has grown into this incredible
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  - system,
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  - in the Southwest. Just incredible leadership, incredible system.
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  - And tell us a little bit about
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  - Banner Health as well.
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  - Yeah. First, thank you so much for having
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  - me and including me in your program. And
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  - if you don't mind calling me Ben, I
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  - would prefer that, maybe be a little bit
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  - less formal. I am
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  - I'm a gynecologic oncologist, a native New Yorker.
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  - I've been in Arizona now for a year
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  - and a half, and I am
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  - the president of academic delivery for Banner Health.
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  - We are a large health system as you
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  - know,
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  - over 30 hospitals in six states,
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  - over 60,000
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  - employees. In fact, we're the largest private employer
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  - in the state of Arizona and have over
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  - $16,000,000,000
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  - in top line revenue.
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  - Also, what's special about Banner is we're an
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  - integrated health system where we have our
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  - joint venture with Aetna, where we have an
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  - insurance plan with over, 1,300,000
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  - members.
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  - My part of the organization,
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  - I,
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  - lead and support
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  - the, leaders of our three academic medical centers,
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  - our academic medical group, which, spans both the
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  - Phoenix and Tucson markets,
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  - and also our enterprise wide service lines and
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  - institutes, including cardiovascular,
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  - neurosciences,
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  - orthopedics,
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  - sports medicine, GI,
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  - women's and infants.
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  - I,
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  - collaborate with the provost of the University of
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  - Arizona, Patty Prelock,
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  - where we cochair the academic management committee, which
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  - governs how
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  - academic medicine
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  - is a collaboration
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  - between our
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  - health system and the two colleges of medicine
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  - at the University of Arizona, one in Phoenix
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  - and one in Tucson.
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  - And we have a very large
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  - training enterprise that I,
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  - support, including
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  - over a 100 residency and fellowship programs, over
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  - 1,300
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  - residency and fellows,
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  - and about a thousand medical students and 7,000
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  - nursing students.
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  - So I think it's a really special opportunity
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  - to be a part of Amy Perry's team
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  - at Banner. I think, you know, we're we're
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  - special because we have care delivery, we have
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  - insurance risk, and we have training pipeline
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  - all at the same time, which we see
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  - as a huge responsibility,
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  - but also as a strategic advantage.
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  - Thank you. And you've had this fascinating
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  - leadership career,
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  - obviously, Obigani
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  - by background,
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  - and then in leadership at Northwell, at Corwell,
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  - and now here.
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  - Amy Perry is obviously a remarkable leader as
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  - was doctor Fine, Peter Fine. Tremendous leadership out
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  - at Banner.
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  - What brought you out to the Southwest?
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  - I mean, you were in, I think, Michigan
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  - before then and the East Coast before that.
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  - What brought you out there? And I take
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  - it it wasn't golf and tennis. It was
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  - more actually leadership,
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  - But tell us about what what made you
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  - to make the decision to go out to
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  - Banner Health and take on a big role.
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  - Yeah. Thank you for the question. I you
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  - know, for me personally, it had a lot
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  - to do with
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  - the culture at Banner and the team that
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  - Amy
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  - has put together in the senior leadership team.
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  - When I was
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  - interviewing for different jobs, I was,
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  - looking
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  - mostly at,
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  - how I could be impactful.
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  - Were
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  - my
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  - abilities and my track record something that would
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  - contribute to the organization in a meaningful way?
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  - And
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  - what were the relationships like between the various
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  - stakeholders that are leading the system? And it's
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  - a really special group at Banner. It's really
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  - wonderful to be a part of the team.
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  - They've been great, to me and my family.
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  - And I would say that in the context
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  - of of all of the challenges that are
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  - coming in health care,
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  - to have that part
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  - feel so secure
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  - was really special and drew me to the
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  - Southwest.
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  - Certainly, you can't complain that, they say in
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  - Arizona, you don't have to shovel sunshine. That's
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  - definitely true. I feel like I live in
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  - paradise.
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  - But the weather was, was a nice perk.
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  - It it really came with
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  - the team that I'm working with.
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  - Really remarkable. And when you look at
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  - you've seen a lot in in in your
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  - career at this point between leadership at Northwell,
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  - Corewell,
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  - spending some time at McKinsey.
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  - How are you seeing health care evolving? What
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  - are the trends that you're watching most closely?
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  - And I guess we'll ask on top of
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  - that because, you know, we talk so much
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  - about challenges with supply and demand and the
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  - Triple Aim. But but also give us something
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  - that's going right. That's something we should be
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  - view as a positive sign in health care
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  - to today. But tell us a little bit
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  - about the trench you're watching currently and and
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  - maybe something that's going right, something that looks
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  - like, hey. This is really going in the
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  - right direction
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  - amongst all this noise and challenges.
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  - Yeah. So, I mean, certainly, in even outside
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  - of work, our the role of artificial intelligence
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  - and how it impacts our daily lives is
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  - something that is, I think, incredibly exciting.
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  - And I think,
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  - you know, how we leverage that technology,
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  - to
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  - provide better access,
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  - better outcomes, a more personalized approach
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  - to improve the wellness, not just of the
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  - communities we serve, but also the team that's
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  - providing the care, I think is really, really
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  - exciting.
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  - And and that's a strong positive. I think
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  - where we're hyper focused is on
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  - what are the potential pitfalls of artificial intelligence
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  - when it comes to descaling clinicians.
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  - You know, are there
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  - I'll give you an example. There was a
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  - study done last year looking at colonoscopy
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  - sensitivity in Europe,
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  - And when artificial intelligence
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  - was introduced,
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  - the endoscopist the same endoscopist had a lower
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  - detection rate than they did before. And I
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  - think the the thought is that there's a
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  - fear that the next generation will become more
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  - and more dependent on the machine and lose
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  - some of the skills
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  - that are so critically important.
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  - Just tell me that. Give me that, doctor
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  - Schwartz. Give me that, Ben. Give me that
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  - one bit again that after AI was introduced
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  - Yeah. The total screening rates were still good,
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  - I take it, but the individual ability of
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  - a gastroenterologist
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  - to screen
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  - themselves, it started to decrease a little bit
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  - or tell me that again.
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  - Yeah. Sure. So in Lancet Gastro in August
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  - of last year,
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  - there were four centers in Eastern Europe and
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  - Poland
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  - where there were roughly 1,400
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  - procedures done.
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  - And they had introduced,
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  - artificial intelligence to help with adenoma detection, which
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  - are polyps that can potentially be precancerous.
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  - And what they noticed was that
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  - before AI was introduced,
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  - the same endoscopists were detecting
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  - adenomas at a rate of roughly twenty eight
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  - percent.
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  - And after
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  - AI was introduced, which was intended to help
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  - them
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  - detect,
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  - suspicious lesions,
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  - the
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  - when they did it without AI, their detection
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  - rate dropped to twenty two percent.
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  - So it what's implied by that is that
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  - there's a risk
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  - that,
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  - relying on the machine,
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  - you lose the practice
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  - of, of the skills that you've had and
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  - that you might lose them. It's a really
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  - interesting thing. We're we're relying now at Banner
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  - very,
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  - wonderfully on ambient listening,
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  - where the machine can listen to an interaction
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  - between a caregiver and a patient and memorialize
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  - in the record,
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  - what they hear.
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  - And we debated quite a bit whether or
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  - not the trainee should have that for fear
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  - that they would never learn the skill of
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  - writing those notes and and and
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  - and without that skill, they would become completely
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  - dependent on the machine.
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  - And and the outcome of that discussion was
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  - we should that they should have the technology.
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  - But we go through every
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  - AI intervention through that scrutiny to make sure
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  - that we're not
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  - creating a next generation without any of the
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  - basic skills that would be needed if the
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  - machine weren't there.
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  - It's a fascinating subject, and and one of
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  - the
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  - brightest people I know is a high school
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  - advanced
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  - math teacher.
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  - And he laments that he's finding the same
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  - thing
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  - that too many students
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  - are not demonstrating the same amount of deeper
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  - rigor and discipline because they're they're so reliant
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  - on using artificial intelligence for things that there's
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  - this concern
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  - that the building blocks of of that discipline,
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  - that rigor,
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  - may not withstand this because they're not spending
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  - enough time doing deeper work or deeper thinking,
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  - and that that is a fascinating challenge. You
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  - can't stop the technology, but how do we
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  - make sure the human brain and human ability
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  - to to do great things
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  - continues and doesn't become so,
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  - you know,
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  - helped by the artificial intelligence? How do you
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  - combine those two to make them great?
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  - Yeah. That was very well said. I agree
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  - completely.
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  - Fascinating. And talk about now you you you
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  - where are you most focused and excited? The
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  - next six months, the next year?
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  - What's the biggest focus and the biggest part
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  - of excitement for you?
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  - Yeah. I think, you know, our
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  - we're
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  - first incredibly proud that over the last
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  - six to twelve months, we've seen a really
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  - significant improvement in banner in our mortality rates.
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  - We've gone from
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  - roughly one point one five to zero point
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  - nine,
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  - in terms of observed to expected.
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  - You know, there there's so many things happening
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  - in health care, but the the principal core
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  - value that we want our patients to come
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  - and get the best outcomes and as many
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  - people to go home healthy as we can,
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  - mortality
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  - and our success in that, I think, is
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  - really exciting.
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  - We've also
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  - challenged the status quo in terms of some
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  - of the bureaucracy that historically healthcare has been
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  - plagued with. So for example,
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  - we've been able to lean in heavily on
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  - the speed with which we can get clinical
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  - trials started in our collaboration with the university
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  - where,
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  - two years ago, that was over that was
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  - over a year, actually.
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  - Now we've got it down to a few
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  - months.
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  - And so
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  - in a world where technology is and innovations
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  - are happening so fast, being able to stand
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  - up those clinical trials quickly
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  - is something we're really excited about. And I
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  - think for the next several months, we're gonna
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  - continue to lean in on that. And then,
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  - you know, in all the places I've been,
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  - the the really successful large matrix health systems,
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  - Things as simple as contracting and working on
• 11:48
  - physician compensation always seem
• 11:50
  - to take much longer than it should. We've
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  - we've really gotten that down
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  - to a science now where
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  - the prospective candidate, whether it's a trainee we're
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  - trying to keep or a physician we're bringing
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  - to the market,
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  - we can get those things done much faster
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  - now leveraging technology than we ever could before.
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  - So I think from a health care management
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  - standpoint,
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  - our customers, whether it's the patients or candidates
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  - or providers,
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  - I think their satisfaction is gonna get better
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  - and better with these innovations.
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  - Thank you so much. And and Ben, doctor
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  - Schwartz, one last question.
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  - When you give advice to emerging leaders on
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  - having impactful careers or being outstanding leaders,
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  - any core thoughts that come to mind as
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  - you think about that type of advice for
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  - evolving leaders?
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  - Yeah. I think it the the background of
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  - the leader matters in the sense that, you
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  - know, I have a a I'm a gynecologic
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  - oncologist. I have a surgical background.
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  - I would say that when it comes to
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  - servant leadership,
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  - what got you here won't get you there
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  - in the sense that sometimes to be a
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  - strong clinical
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  - lead, you have to sort of be the
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  - captain of the ship and evolving into
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  - a servant leader that really is the leader
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  - that the team needs
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  - and not necessarily just follow me for who
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  - I am is really, really important.
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  - I think it's also important,
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  - I would just say,
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  - to not recruit into a job that you
• 13:19
  - can't describe,
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  - which is to say frequently,
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  - you bring people on because you're excited that
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  - they wanna work with you or they they're
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  - a superstar.
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  - But unless you actually understand the why of
• 13:30
  - the hire,
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  - that's a mistake that can be easily made
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  - where you've got really talented people,
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  - but but they're not exactly the right fit
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  - for the organization. So
• 13:40
  - coming up with the job first and finding
• 13:42
  - the talent second, I think, is really important.
• 13:45
  - No. I think there's so much to be
• 13:46
  - said for that. Sometimes people are hiring, and
• 13:47
  - they have no idea why they're really hiring
• 13:49
  - the person, and then it ends up being
• 13:51
  - unclear what the person's supposed to do, and
• 13:53
  - you and you end up with this really
• 13:55
  - challenging situation. I I I love that,
• 13:58
  - and and some more clarity about here's what
• 14:00
  - we're actually trying to accomplish, and then we
• 14:01
  - need great people side by side with that
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  - or or or working on that. I I
• 14:05
  - I love that.
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  - Ben, I wanna thank you, doctor Schwartz, for
• 14:08
  - taking the time to visit with us. Brilliant
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  - career, brilliant leadership. Thank you so much for
• 14:13
  - joining us today on the Becker's Healthcare podcast.
• 14:15
  - Thank you very, very much.
• 14:17
  - That's super kind. Thank you for the compliments,
• 14:19
  - and, it's an honor to be included. Thanks
• 14:21
  - for taking the time.
• 14:22
  - A total pleasure. Thank you so much.