Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep 345 - Is It Wrong for Christians to Support War?

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Ep 345 - Is It Wrong for Christians to Support War? · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I am so refreshed by the heart from you guys.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Truly, like I, was expecting us to come to this from a different perspective and to hear the tension and the lament behind the reality that war is an unfortunate consequence to the fall.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: It's a part of the life that we live in and waiting for the kingdom to come that is both here and not yet.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: And to those who are listening, I wanna to offer just a connection to the gospel.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Why should we, as Christians, be hesitant to agree with war man?
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: We just talked about Iran and how much they hate America.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Death to America.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: The heart of every single man wages war on God in the same way that Iran wages war on us.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: In our heart of hearts we're saying death to God, death to God.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: We are that World War II warmonger that wants control of the world away from God.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: And God does not drop a bomb on us.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: He could, but instead he offers peace.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: He bears the violence of the world.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: He doesn't return it.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: The gospel calls us to be peacemakers because God first made peace with us.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: So why, when we hear Iran saying death to America, should we still lament the unfortunate reality that we may have to go to war with them, because we know that we said death to God and he offered peace Wow.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: The other day I was going on the very humble four-mile walk that my wife Rachel and I go on regularly, in all humility and as we were on our four-mile walk on the Yerba Linda walking trails, Mark, aren't they glorious.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: They're nice, they're glorious.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: No, we love them, we do it.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, we don't stop at four miles.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: That's just like our warm-up.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: But you know, I'm with you yeah.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: So when we finished our four-mile warm-up and did our 400-mile walk, yeah, still my warm-up.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: Which was our second warm-up, yeah.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: And then did the four-million-mile walk, yeah still my warm-up.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: There's nowhere you can go.
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: You cannot win this.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Okay why, don't women do this?
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Because they're sane.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Women don't do this stuff.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Men have to keep competing.
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: I walk on the moon, yep, they walk on the moon.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: I knew exactly what Ray was about to say.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: All right, anyway, we were on our lovely walk when I saw someone walking.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: He's proud of that A dog I saw someone walking a dog.
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: Would you keep on with us?
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: I saw someone walking a dog no bigger than a snail and I said it was a small dog.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: It was actually a snail, I had to say to Rachel some dogs are so small it just doesn't make sense to walk them.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Seriously, have you guys seen these people?
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: It's like walking an ant on a leash.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: I've heard of people getting treadmills for their dogs.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, ray, you should create leashes for ants, take your ant on a walk, my ant would not enjoy that no.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it just doesn't make sense to me.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: I could yeah.
• 4:14
  Speaker 5: Is there a point to this?
• 4:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah, is there ever.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: It makes it good for the listener.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: I'm just telling you, there's just no point, but I will say this though what drives me crazier than that is people who put their dogs in strollers or on little feminine baskets, like Ray does.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: Don't even say that Ray's got a dog.
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: It's so silent, what's?
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: the difference actually.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: This is a really good point.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: I hate it bitch.
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: This is a great point.
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: No, no, the big wheel With your Velcro shoes, jenna.
• 4:46
  Speaker 5: Parshall, we did that.
• 4:48
  Speaker 5: She introduced me as the guy with the basket the dog on the basket.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: I said no.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: No when I'm 93, I'll get a three-wheeler and maybe a basket, I don't know.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: What kind of flowers does your basket have?
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: We should buy him one of those Hot Wheel cars you just drive around.
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: People don't know that Lucy's like one of those animatronic things.
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: You can get them now, okay, very realistic.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: But you guys know that there are people that actually the stuff people.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: You remember, I'm from Lebanon okay.
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: Where you eat dogs, oh, but close, we don't eat dogs, but close, no, but I'm from Lebanon.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: It's like the thought of a dog coming in your house.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: It's like it's not even a concept.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: What do you mean?
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: A dog in a house?
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: It's like saying you drive around with an elephant in your car.
• 5:36
  Speaker 5: What's wrong with that?
• 5:36
  Speaker 5: What's?
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: wrong with that?
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: I knew you were going to say that, don't you.
• 5:39
  Speaker 5: That would get a crowd to think of that.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Not in a house In your little bug.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: That would be dogs in the house.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: It's just because dogs are dirty animals.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just a dog is outside.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: It's like what do you mean?
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: A dog in the house.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: So all that to say you guys understand the things people do for their like.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I just heard recently someone who has uses white noise for their dog to sleep at night.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: White noise for the dog?
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for the dog to sleep at night?
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: So I mean the more and more things happening for animals in.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: In fairness, my dog's therapist says that my dog's masseuse.
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: All dogs are service dogs now.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: It drives me crazy.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Seriously, though, guys, it's gotten overboard.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Ray, I know you love dogs, but it has gotten overboard.
• 6:19
  Speaker 5: It certainly has.
• 6:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree, it's not the size of the fight and the dog.
• 6:25
  Speaker 5: It's the size of the dog and the fight.
• 6:26
  Speaker 5: It's the other way around.
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: I see that.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: But that led Rachel and me to talk about white noise, because I go crazy.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: There's this new trend.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: You go through different trends with kids, but a lot of people use white noise for their kids.
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: You better explain that it sounds racist.
• 6:43
  Speaker 5: What is?
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: white noise it's like the static on a.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: TV channel back in the day.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: That wasn't working.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: You get all kinds right, From waves to pans.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: No, no, but I'm talking about the like rain white waves, somebody snoring.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: I personally think, well, good point, because I think what you should do with your children when they're babies is play snoring noises for them.
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: So that when they get married, they have a spouse that snores.
• 7:07
  Speaker 5: Oh, you prepared them.
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: Seriously man.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: And yawning to help people sleep.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: The yawning Ray tell us about Yonese please.
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: I produced a 60-minute tape called Yonese, the Insomniac's Dream, where it was 60 minutes of pure, non-stop, genuine yawns that I repeated and I was going to put it on my market.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: I never did you know what I thought it was?
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: I bought it.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: You know what I thought it was.
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: You bought it, matt, I bought it.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Oh, really, you did not.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: I did.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was on the other side of the cassette tape, yeah, yeah, oh, you bought the tape.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, comfort's Favorites, yeah, I'd go, oh a Sanya one.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: The next day it arrived in the mail.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay, these people keep their word.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: But I'll tell you this, ray, I thought the Yonis because it's on the same, I think it may be even right afterwards, I think at the end is the keeper.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: I thought Yonis was demonic like demonic noises.
• 8:02
  Speaker 5: I actually got the recording from one of Ken Ham's congregations.
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: I just put a microphone to his audience.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: But seriously, I thought it was like.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: It's how to get rid of unwanted health guests.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 8:16
  Speaker 5: I said that too.
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: I forgot about that, Mark yeah.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: So anyway, whatever Dogs leashes, who cares?
• 8:23
  Speaker 5: So seriously, you don't like little dogs, it's not, I don't like little dogs, it's dogs, it's little dogs on leashes.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: You have this like Pekingese Pomeranian.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: It's like the size of my cup.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: That dog can.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Going from its water bowl to its bed is enough walking for that dog.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Their legs are like this big.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: What's wrong with that?
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: You got people on the trails taking them on like two, three miles.
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: Well, it's the law.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: It has to be on a leash.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's it.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Have you seen the treadmills for dogs?
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: You don't take it for a walk, Mark.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: There's treadmills for dogs.
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: Treadmills for dogs.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: Oh boy, there's a dog channel too.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: There's people.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: They build mansions for their dogs and animal care.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Air-conditioned dog houses, that's.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: Televangelist.
• 9:02
  Speaker 5: Remember that.
• 9:02
  Speaker 5: Yes, that was big news in the 80s, where televangelists used donor money to buy air conditioning kennel for the dog.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: I know a guy that flies in private planes because he doesn't want his dog to experience having to go into a whatever you call those things a box or whatever.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: They don't have to do that anymore.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: It seems like everybody has a dog on the plane.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Dogs go everywhere.
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: I hate, it when I'm sitting there in first class and then you have all these dogs.
• 9:27
  Speaker 5: You just pretend to be blind or mentally and you can have a service call.
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: Just close the pod.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Just close your pod.
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: Mark.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Close my pod.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: All these dogs around.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Dogs should not be allowed in restaurants.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: That's all I got to say.
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: All right friends and time for a.
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: What am I supposed to eat?
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: Cool oh.
• 9:44
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• 9:47
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• 9:57
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• 10:01
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• 10:09
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• 10:10
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• 10:18
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• 10:21
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• 10:23
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• 10:24
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• 12:18
  Speaker 4: All right, friends.
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: Today we're talking about, is it?
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: wrong for Christians to support war?
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: Is it support war or go to war?
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: To support war?
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Well, either you go to it or support it, or say it's nice.
• 12:33
  Speaker 5: That's an important distinction.
• 12:33
  Speaker 5: I support you guys out there fighting.
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: I'm at home.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: Go for it Now, ray your dad was.
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: he was in the military, he was a desert rat.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Tell us about that.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: What is that?
• 12:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, they were rats in the desert.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: That's what they were called, because they they fought rommel, my dad.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: He actually meant to call you rat comfort.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: I actually signed.
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: I typed my name because the y is next to the t and I actually assigned my name rat accidentally, but my dad never saw uh, never saw action, really.
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he was very fortunate he didn't get shot and, uh, I'm pleased about that.
• 13:05
  Speaker 5: If he'd been killed there'd be dead silence at the moment on the podcast.
• 13:09
  Speaker 5: Oh, that's true.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: You wouldn't be here, right?
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: No, so what's a desert rat?
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: They would designate the desert rats, because I have no idea.
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: I was waiting for a gutter snipe explanation.
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, they ate rats in the desert.
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
• 13:23
  Speaker 5: You have no idea, you have no idea, no, but I do know about rats.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Tell us, how are your rats, ray, speaking of?
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: rats Great transition Ray how are your rats.
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: It's a really good transition to what we're talking about.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: This is why it's a good transition to what we're talking about.
• 13:36
  Speaker 5: I'm going to say something that's going to disgust you, but I can handle it.
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: Yesterday a rat was probably six inches long got loose out of our chicken coop.
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: Okay, it was running around the lawn.
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: My dog, lucy, is an Australian ship.
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: She's an Aussie doodle and all her instincts came up.
• 13:52
  Speaker 5: When she chases a ball.
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: The ball bounces so quickly you can hardly follow it with your eyes, but she's following it with her nose.
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: She's that quick.
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: She was after this rat with every muscle in her body, every ounce of energy was chasing this rat and we were saying go for it, go for it.
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: And then she got it, put it under her foot and the rat lifted up, looked at her and cried no, it broke my heart, it broke my heart.
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: yes, You're getting emotional right now.
• 14:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it broke my heart because I'm not going to put a spade through a rat.
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: We let it go in the front lawn.
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: What you see now, that's disgusting, and we're talking about going to war.
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: And I think to myself I am so weak and tender.
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: Men should not react like that to a rat.
• 14:31
  Speaker 5: But how could I ever go to war and shoot someone?
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: So this is a dilemma I've fought for the last 40, 50 years as I've looked at Scripture.
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: You can see both sides Love your enemies, shoot them.
• 14:43
  Speaker 5: You know, with good advice, make war.
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: So there's a fine dividing line and I'm so glad that I've gone through 75 years.
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: I haven't had to go to war.
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: I haven't been conscripted, and even if I was now, I'd be useless as a soldier.
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: Unless they issued every soldier with an electric bike, I'd be okay.
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: And a dog, yeah, and a dog Sunglasses on the front of the bike.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Ray would have fit in really well with the early church, that mindset.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah Well, let me, just Let me say this I'm so glad that we're addressing subjects like this.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Recently we talked about the death penalty, and I think that's good.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: We need to discuss things like that, and I think one of the things that people appreciated was that in that episode in particular and we do this all the time we share the fact that we may have different views on things.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: But that's the beauty of the body of Christ.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: You know that when it comes to secondary issues, there can be charity in that, there can be latitude where we say, look, this is not an essential issue.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: We may hold our views tenaciously and feel strongly about them, but there has to be a grace that's involved to say, look, these are not essentials.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: And so, while we can even debate them and, and, and, you know, in a spirited way, at the end of the day we need to have that gracious heart and attitude.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: And we've talked before about pacifism, uh, on the or self-defense, rather, uh, but we want to, you know, talk and we can.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: We can talk about things related to it, but we want to, yeah, talk about war, because it's a big thing and it's an important topic to tackle.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been doing a lot of writing lately and so I've been trying to write more of my own words, Book Possibly Leading up to a book.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Ray's been trying to encourage me in that direction.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: But I summarize sort of my study of should Christians support war, specifically looking at the early church and this brief paragraph which says our views on just war have changed over time, so much so that when many Christians now consider just would likely shock Augustine.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Augustine, We've gone from a persecuted church with pacifist impulses very important, not a pacifist church, a pacifist impulses to a church entangled in empire.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: From Augustine's cautious permission to wholesale American militarism.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: We are like a frog in boiling water.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: We didn't notice how far we've drifted.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: We may find yourself condoning what the with the early church condemned.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's important to pause and not get caught up in the hype.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: What do I mean by that?
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: I do believe war is necessary at times.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: I do believe that Christians are not in sin to engage in war.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: But what I have found is this glee among many Christians when it comes to war, they're hawkish, they're warmongers, almost in attitude and mindset.
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, get those guys.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: You're talking about human lives.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: You're talking about people made in the image of God.
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: Mothers and fathers and children.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, people made in the image of God, mothers and fathers and children, absolutely.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: And so there's this sort of like yeah, we're the United States of America, we're powerful, and it's easy to be influenced by that spirit, you know.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: But man, war is not something to gloat about, it's not something to revel in, and I do think it is an area that believers can differ on, and so I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys think and why, and to get into that.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: So, mark, I'd love to hear your perspective.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: To start with, I remember there was a time when I would have different relatives that would come to me and say I want to join the military and almost without fail, I would talk them out of it, in the sense that I would say you know, I don't know if it's the best idea, you know for you, and here's the reasons why.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: Or, I think it is a really good idea, right, you don't know what you're doing in your life, you don't have a stable family at home, you don't.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's really great.
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: And then you have the different wars that are out there and why we go to war and things of that nature.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: I do think that war is justifiable.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: You know, in Genesis, chapter 14, starting in verse 14, it says now, when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his 318 trained servants who were born in his own house and he went in to pursue as far as Dan.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: He divided his forces against them by night and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: So he brought back all the goods and also brought back his brother, lot and his goods, as well as the woman and all the people.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: So Abraham did not write a letter to Sodom, he went to war.
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: I think that there is, and I'm not saying all war right.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: What is war?
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: W-a-r.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: Oh, we are right, we are right.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: That's why we go to war.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: We go to war because we are right and you feel the same thing.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: You feel that you're right and that's why you're going to war with us.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: Possibly if it is a nation like ours, in that maybe it's democracy rules, but I don't think that all war is a good idea.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: And how do you pick that?
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: If you are in the military, you don't get to have a say in that you are going to war if you are in the military, right?
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: So Romans 13, 4, I'll be the first one to quote it Thanks, mark, for he is God's servant for your good, but if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: The sword of God by our government is designed to bring peace.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: That is the point and the purpose, I think, for war.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: Right that we're going to war for peace.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: And if you don't go to war oftentimes, then you will not have peace.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: That war is the only answer in a world that is hell-bent on bringing destruction.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: That's why we go to war, right?
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: So Trump, who's currently in office?
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: He cannot say that we are going to war.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: He can't say that without Congress, unless he's bringing a defense of protection.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: It's the only reason Al Mohler came out with something really good on the briefing.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: It was brilliant.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: I listened to it.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: I highly recommend the briefing by Al Mohler Jr and his definition.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: Al Mohler Jr, there's a time to love, a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace, as you guys are just slicing these off of your notes there.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Thank you, mark.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Maybe one more.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle, right?
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: So, david, he didn't just lift holy hands, he lifted hands that had a sword inside of them.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: Unless we think of, forget about, was it Nehemiah who was at building the wall and he had a sword in one hand and what is it called?
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: A trowel?
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: A trowel in the other, as he's building the wall.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: There is a place I'm just not excited about all the war that's taken place, and I remember, before my dad became a Christian, I asked him Dad, are you going to heaven when you die?
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: And he said no, I've killed too many people in war.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: Because he went to Vietnam twice and that was his reason why he thought he did not gain that access into heaven.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: And then, like the apostle Paul we'll get into that a little bit later with Stephen, there was that epiphany, there was the opening of the eyes, the unveiling took place and realized that God saves the most wretched of sinners.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: He's able to do it to the gutter most.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: He still does it today.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: Finally, francis Schaeffer to fail to stand against tyranny is to fail to love your neighbor, and if we love your neighbor, we're going to fight for our neighbor.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: So we have war that is commissioned and approved and designed by our government, but there's also war inside of our communities to protect our family and to protect our fellow neighbor.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: That is a war that takes place.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: That's good, mark, yeah, and I would say I'd love to hear you, oscar, on this.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: But I would say that there is that we are right aspect of war.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: Then I think there is the we are righteous aspect of war, which is like there is a righteous cause in the defense of the innocent, in the defense of a nation that's being unjustly attacked.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: And then I think there is the we are ruthless aspect of war, where there are those that are just wicked, ruthless people that don't care about people.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: They just want to conquer, they want to rule, they want power, and so I think it's important to explore that.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I would say, in terms of what we know from the tone and tenor of the Old Testament, that if we're speaking principally, war is not something that is by definition unrighteous.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: God called for righteous wars for different reasons.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: In fact, he used the children of Israel as an instrument through which he passed judgment on other nations.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: And God would tell the Israelites clearly it's not because of your righteousness, it's not because of your greatness, but it's because of the wickedness of these nations that I'm using you to dispossess them, and so forth.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: And I'm sure Oscar has a lot to say on this, but I think a lot of times there could be the confusion of a lot of the things that Jesus touched on in terms of loving our enemies, in terms of turning the other cheek and so forth.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: That I think contextually give a different perspective on that.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: It's not that you can't thwart unrighteousness, but it's your interrelational as an individual disciple of Christ.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: How do you interact with others in a civil way in that regard and for the testimony of the gospel?
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: But I think there is a distinction to be made between the civil and the governmental elements of how you defend a nation, and can Christians partake in that?
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: So let's get into that, oscar.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your thoughts.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I think it's clear that EZ is a warmonger.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I actually resonate quite a bit as I hear you, ray, and you, mark, talk about this.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: I sense a tension that's there.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: You mentioned image bearers and I resonate with that tension of looking at the scriptures and looking at culture and reality.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: And again, you know, we kind of turned to the early church in the last episode and I'm going to do it again in this one, because I think in this subject it's really valuable for us to see how our theology of war has changed over time, if it's influenced by, you know, if you can look at the theory of war and the way that the church did for the first 300 years, or has it changed?
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Did Rome change its perspective?
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Did America change its perspective?
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: And so what you see in that early church is a similar tension that Ray was mentioning, which is that the early church, as I said before, leaned heavily toward a pacifism type view of the world, not pacifistic in the sense that we would understand pacifism.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Essentially, they saw that violence was incompatible with following Jesus.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: But they weren't totally pacifistic, because we have a lot of examples of, while Christians did not participate in war, they did pray for a positive outcome in war.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: They were non-combatant participants.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: And so Origen, as a prime example, says we no longer take up the sword against nation, nor do we learn war anymore.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: We have become children of peace, for the sake of Jesus.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Another historian I'm sorry, a church father in the first 300 years says it is always notice it is always unlawful to put to death a man whom God willed to be a sacred animal.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Another example is that soldiers and officials in the first 300 years would be.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Another example is that soldiers and officials in the first 300 years would be excommunicated or barred from baptism if they became a soldier.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Tertullian critiques military service.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: He basically says like in order to be a part of the military, you need to swear an oath to military leaders, and his quote says one soul cannot serve both God and Caesar.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: And so there is this it's important to just recognize in the first 300 years there is this instinct against bloodshed.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: But it's not historically accurate to say the church was totally against war because again, you also have examples of people in the early church praying for positive outcomes and participating in non-combatant ways.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Again, you also have examples of people in the early church praying for positive outcomes and participating in non-combatant ways.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Then you fast forward a little bit and one of the things that we've talked about before we've thrown around this phrase just war.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: That is a phrase borrowed from Augustine.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: See how kind I am to my enemy.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: You're very nice.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: What a grace.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: You need to do that, for me to interject.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: So something different happens post-Nicene shift, remember.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Christianity becomes a state religion in 380 through the edict of Thessalonica, and now the church is grappling with the ability to have power and what it looks like to preserve Christian virtue and enter Augustine's theory of just war.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: It's important to contextualize, because I actually asked AI about Augustine's theory of just war and it gave a very skewed perspective, which is an example on how we can't always rely on AI.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: So it's important to have a background.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: First, the first time Augustine talks about just war, he doesn't talk about it in City of God.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: There's actually quite a bit of letters that he's exchanging with people as they're asking him for help, and one of the first times the fascinating story it was the church of Corinth.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: There was slave trade happening and Corinth is a port city and so these slavers were bringing in slaves, many of them children and women.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Why children?
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Because this is terrible, but children had more of a lifespan, so they were worth more as slaves.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: So these Christians are witnessing these slave traders come through Corinth and they're sending letters to Augustine like what should we do?
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: And one day they decide in a non-combative way in the middle of the night to go in there and unlock the cages and steal these slaves away from the slave traders.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: And now they're hiding them in their homes and in their churches, trying to get them to go back to their land.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: And they're writing Augustine like hey, the city's coming down hard on us.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Did we do the right thing?
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: People are arguing whether we did the right thing or not, and he says that your war against the slave traders is just Now.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: It's important to recognize that they never raised a sword, they never fought anybody.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: They simply went in there and freed the slaves from the slave traders.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Fast forward a little bit.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Rome falls to the Goths, and now you've got this discombobulated Rome and you have people that own land.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: And these Goths are coming in and they're basically talking through like what should we do here?
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: And in City of God?
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Augustine makes it very clear you thought Rome was God's country, and it wasn't.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: It was Babylon.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Side note that's important for us to consider as Americans.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: He then says to them, though it is valuable for you to consider defending Christian virtue if it means being attacked by the Goths.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: And so Henry Chadwick summarizes Augustine's just war theory, and a lot of people will say Augustine laid out these three or four or five criteria.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: It actually wasn't Augustine's, just war theory and a lot of people will say Augustine's laid out these three or four or five criteria.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: It actually wasn't Augustine, it was Henry Chadwick that summarizes Augustine.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: He says basically, just war means self-defense or recovery of stolen property.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Its aim is always peace, not conquest or revenge.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: It's always proportional in force to revenge.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: It's always proportional in force.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: It has a respect for humanity and avoids humiliation.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: And we should always preserve the idea of prisoners of war.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: In other words, we need to protect their rights even when they are our enemies.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: So to summarize the idea of gust war permits war but never glorifies it.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: It recognize it as always being tragic and it limits its reason to go to war.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: I love that, oscar.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: I think you know that.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: That really sums up what I, what I think is the the preferred virtuous perspective on war, especially not glorying in it, not making it out to be this wonderful thing, like we're going to just get in there.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: We are the United States of America and I think sometimes there's this lack of integration.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: One of the greatest things I learned when I was in Bible college was that principle of integration versus compartmentalization, where we sort of segregate our faith to certain aspects of our lives, versus integrating our faith into everything.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Our faith informs everything.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: There's no like, oh well, that's different.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: So now I'm an American soldier, so I'm going to talk like this and act like that, god forbid.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: But I think it's important too for us to, as Christians, whatever the early church may have done, to do what the Reformers taught us to do, and that's go back to Scripture.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: Even with the Reformers, sometimes people will say, well, martin Luther, you know he was anti-Semitic, whatever, well, he was wrong.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean, you know we're not.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: You know those that are saying lock, stock and barrel.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Everything that the Reformers held to was right.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: So I think that's why we need to be biblical and say, well, let's explore, let's examine.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: So, mark, I want to throw something to you in this vein.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: If some man broke into your house and began to attack your wife, would you stop them?
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: I would do all that I can to stop them, of course, and I would use whatever means that I can, and it would make sense to me because their intention, as they went across that barrier, is to do harm.
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: Nothing else would make sense to me.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: And though I would leave room in my mind right now that he could have ulterior motives not to hurt, not to harm, I don't know what those would be, but that's not how you go about doing it.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: No.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: So if someone came in and tried to attack your wife and your children, would you defend them?
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: I would shoot them with my 12-gauge, I would use buckshot and I would take them out.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, Ray, if someone was attacking your next-door neighbor and was attempting to hurt them and murder them and you had the ability to stop them, would you do that, or would you just turn a blind eye?
• 34:25
  Speaker 5: I'd use my starter pistol.
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: Starter pistol, I'd send.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Lucy over there.
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: But principally, right, yes, definitely, yeah, definitely.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: And in my perspective that's what just war is, and I would tie it to Romans 13, like you already did.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Mark that the governing authorities do not bear the sword in vain.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Now it's in an organized, governmental fashion where the cause of war, as we expand, that is for the sake of defending those that are within your borders, within your boundaries.
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: It's easy to forget that war has radically changed in recent years.
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: We don't take up the sword and spill the blood of our enemy.
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: We push a button and send a missile and blow them to pieces without seeing his blood.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly so, and this is a good point to discuss.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: So, like right now, obviously, in recent days or weeks or months, whenever this is airing obviously the United States of America went and bombed Iran and the perception was that they have nuclear bombs or were, I'm sorry, were attempting to enrich uranium to create nuclear bombs, and that they are a nation that has sworn death to America.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: It's not just a slogan, but it's in their charter, it's like, it's a part of, like, their theology.
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: And they've killed over a thousand Americans.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: So maybe we differ on this.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: What do you guys think, oscar?
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: What do you think about that?
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Do you think that?
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Let's say the intel?
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: And when we talked about it with the death penalty, we said, hey, you've got to be careful.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, some of us may say the death penalty is fine, but you can't just do it without total, absolute proof.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: There has to be care.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: But you can't just do it without total, absolute proof.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: There has to be care.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: So, oscar, let's say that there was verifiable evidence that, as much as possible from multiple independent sources that verified that they weren't trying to enrich uranium, they've already spoken their intents to want to destroy the United States.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Do you think that what we did was just?
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: I'm going to give you an answer you're not going to like, which is I don't know, because I I like that answer.
• 36:38
  Speaker 5: I like that answer.
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: Do you like that answer?
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: I am.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I sense this desire in me to try to respond to current events, but I also sense sort of the Dunning-Kruger effect taking in me, like geopolitical conversation is so complicated.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: I want to say it was just.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: But I also want to humbly look back and recognize preemptive strikes is a newer version of just war.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Augustine wouldn't have agreed to it.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: I also look back in history and think of the second gulf war in which we were told that there were weapons of mass destruction and now universally, both sides of the aisle are like whoops, it wasn't, um.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: I also want to recognize that we talk about iran as evil, but like the story is complicated, what was it?
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: 1988 we shot down an airliner with 280 something.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: And can you imagine if an airplane left Los Angeles for Peru?
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: And it turns out Iran had a military boat off the shore of Mexico and shot down an airliner with 280 people that were just trying to go on vacation?
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: We did that to them.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: So I just I think, yes, what we did was just in this current situation with Trump as president, but I also just know geopolitical stuff is really complicated and I don't want to Dunning-Kruger myself into it?
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd like to explore that.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: I'm not familiar with that instance.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: I know Iran had hijacked our planes.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I know they killed 200 and something soldiers in Beirut, my country.
• 38:18
  Speaker 5: Can't we say, instead of saying we shot down that plane, they did it, I don't know anything about it?
• 38:22
  Speaker 5: If I'd been asked, I would have said no.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know anything about that.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: But, oscar, what you're saying, though, is true in that we need to be careful, because I often think about wmds right, the whole weapons of mass destruction, and saran was and has them but at the same time, I think as well that we need to be careful, because then we would say, oh well, then any kind of evidence we can't because of that versus like, look, there may be different sources of intel, there may be ways that they, you know, uh, came to that conclusion I want to say a side note.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: I think it's really important.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Like, the Atlantic is pretty anti-Trump and they released an article a couple of days ago justifying Trump's actions, and so I just want to say, like this is just a, it's just a.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: It's interesting because right now there's quite a bit of people that would agree.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Even people who universally disagree with Trump are backing him.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: And then there are people who have universally agreed with Trump who are not backing him, which is very interesting.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: So it's just very complicated.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: My expertise is not in geopolitical matters which is why I want to say I don't know.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: I think, but I don't know.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, mark, what do you think?
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: When it comes to war in general.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: This particular instance with Trump.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: What do we have?
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: We only have what we've been told.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: We always got to remember that right that if your only source of news is from Fox, you have a problem.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: If your only source of news is from CNN, you have a problem, because who is really behind the news in which we get right?
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: So we really got to be careful in the midst of this right.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, on that point, Mark, if I can real quick.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: And just yesterday I showed someone this because I took a screenshot of CNN's headline on the website.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: I took one of Fox's.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: One said military success in the bombing of Iran's you know, Fordd military nuclear base.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: And then one said did not fully destroy ford military.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: They were like the exact opposites.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: So like you're saying we're at the mercy, yeah, and I do believe that there are some extreme leftists, yeah, who would find fault in trump if trump I saw this Fox News yesterday if Trump were to eradicate cancer, some people in the far left would get upset at Trump for doing away with oncologists.
• 40:44
  Speaker 5: You have eliminated people in the workforce?
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: right, but here's the thing, right, this isn't just leftists and CNN, this is on both sides.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: Right that Democrats can do no good in the eyes of some Republicans.
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: Right that it's only demonized, no matter what route you go, no matter what you take.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: So, to answer your question directly, I would say, if the information that I received, which is to eliminate the ability of Iran to create these nuclear missiles, whatever it may be, that seems like a really good thing, right, because I really do believe that their government wants to destroy America at all costs, that we are the infidel, right?
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: I don't think there's any way around that.
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: A couple quotes, a couple thoughts.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: Right, francis Schaeffer.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: He said, to fail to stand against tyranny is to fail to love your neighbor.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: Spurgeon, a time will come when peace means cowardice and war means righteousness.
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: I'm not needing to make these decisions, though, right?
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: So, because I'm not able to make these decisions, all I know is these little 30-second snippet Instagram newsreels, which is, by and large, where people get their news.
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: I was surprised to see Tucker interview Ted Cruz concerning this.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you saw that, but there was fireworks amongst the two and I thought.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: I thought you were on the same side.
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: Am I that far removed now to what is happening?
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: So, bottom line for me, I think that there are times when war is justifiable.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: Right, and you had asked me the question if somebody breaks into my house, let me quote a verse Exodus 22,.
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no blood guilt for him.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: Right, ray saying, if he had a real gun, he would start at the foot and work his way up.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: Right, I don't Did you know that he has to aim up at the foot.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: Right, sometimes fighting for peace means fighting period.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: That's what Mel Gibson said, right?
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: Listen, we just got to be careful in the midst of this.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: This is why it is so important to pray for our governmental leaders that God puts people in place and for you not to vote, whoever you are.
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: It is a terrible act let me take it a step further of treason towards your government that we have the ability to put people in place.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: That is how God works supernaturally, in a very natural way, ray we're talking about current war, right Israel and Iran, and then the United States getting involved.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: But you're somewhat, in my opinion, a World War II buff.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: I know that you've really explored a lot of World War II.
• 43:41
  Speaker 5: Wrote a book.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: Your dad fought in it.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: You wrote a book on it.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: One of my favorite memorials in DC is a World War II memorial where you have these stars that are affixed to the wall and each one of them represents 10,000, there's 400 stars, 10,000 lives that were given in World War II, and at the bottom it says here we mark the price of freedom.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, sometimes it's easy for us to walk around and say, oh, you know, forget war, this and that, like those that are like hardcore pacifists and they're living in the benefits of those that went to war to defend us.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: So what do you think of something like World War II?
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Should the United States have gotten involved?
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: I think the United States should have gotten involved sooner than what they did.
• 44:20
  Speaker 5: They were isolationists, but they were provoked to be isolationists by people who have been placed by the enemy within America.
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: Fifth columnists, I think they were called, where they would cause strikes and all sorts of things to try and bring the nation down or create confusion.
• 44:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I just can't help but think 50 million people like us four guys died in that war.
• 44:44
  Speaker 5: Why?
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: Because some little twit that looked like Charlie Chaplin decided he wanted to rule the world just because of that, it's just absolutely crazy.
• 44:54
  Speaker 5: This whole world's a tinderbox.
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: I am a fan of Fox, but I deliberately go across to CNN regularly so I get a balance, because I know Fox know their customs Customers, they know their base and their whole thing is pump Trump, and we'll get a good bottom line, and CNN say dump Trump, we'll get a good bottom line.
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: And so that's why Mark is so right about just being careful what you listen to, because you can be shaped by what you listen to.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Moving away from geopolitical matters for just a bit and back on just war as a theory in general.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: One of the guys who makes, I think, one of the strongest points for just war is a hero of mine who I quote often, which is CS Lewis.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: He has a discussion on Luke 3.14 as a reminder.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Jesus just got done calling the Pharisees a brood of vipers.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: He's in the middle of you know, people are getting baptized and people are asking him what should I do?
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: A tax collector comes to him what should I do?
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: And he gives him advice.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: And then a centurion that's someone enlisted in the army comes to him and says what?
• 46:06
  Speaker 5: should I do?
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: This is Jesus, luke 3.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: He says so the centurion is like I just got baptized, what should I do with my life?
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: And he says be content with your wages.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: And CS Lewis points out that Jesus never told the centurion to quit the army.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: He simply said be content with your wages.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: That's interesting.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: That's good, that's really good, yeah, and I found this online.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: I think it was a really good summation, like it's when war may be justified, when war is unjustified.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: So when war may be justified, defensive war, protecting citizens from aggression, justice for the oppressed.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: When diplomacy fails, resisting evil, preventing genocide or tyranny and upholding order, maintaining a lawful society.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: And then, when war is unjustified, greed, conquest, revenge, religious coercion, a disregard for civilians or unjust, targeting nationalism elevated above God's word, that's huge.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: And disobedience to God's moral law in battle.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: I think it's a good kind of summation to look at.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: And then, in terms of the just war doctrine by Augustine and then Aquinas, augustine, so just cause, which is to stop real evil, genocide, invasion, proper authority declared by a legitimate government, right intention, goal must be peace, not conquest.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Last resort, all options must be be exhausted.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: I think that's an important one.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: Has diplomacy been given a shot, you know?
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Uh, proportionality, force must be measured, not excessive.
• 47:37
  Speaker 5: and then discrimination civilians and non-combatants must be protected so when we see augustine in heaven, who uh you?
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: heard augustine.
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: You heard him hang on a minute, let me finish, let it be the last word, when he says how he pronounced his name between the two of you, so we have peace in heaven augustine will set us straight, for sure.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah um, I I am so refreshed by the heart from you guys.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Truly, like I, was expecting us to come to this from a different perspective and to hear the tension and the lament behind the reality that war is an unfortunate consequence to the fall.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: It's a part of the life that we live in and waiting for the kingdom to come that is both here and not yet.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: And to those who are listening, I want to offer just a connection to the gospel.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Why should we, as Christians, be hesitant to agree with war man?
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: We just talked about Iran and how much they hate America.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Death to America.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: The heart of every single man wages war on God in the same way that Iran wages war on us.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: In our heart of hearts we're saying death to God, death to God.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: We are that World War II warmonger that wants control of the world away from God.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: And God does not drop a bomb on us.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: He could, but instead he offers peace.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: He bears the violence of the world.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: He doesn't return it.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: The gospel calls us to be peacemakers because God first made peace with us.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: So why, when we hear Iran saying death to America, should we still lament the unfortunate reality that we may have to go to war with them, because we know that we said death to God and he offered peace.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: That's so good, oscar, amen.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: And you think of what Scripture says in terms of and James talks about why there's wars between you, and he talks about that desire, that fleshly desire, really and, mark, that's a reality today between believers Wars and fights among you.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: Why are there wars and fights among you?
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: It's that desire that draw towards self-centeredness.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: And right now and this is a good segue we're talking about war in the geopolitical sense, but there are wars going on in churches today.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: There are wars between churches, there are wars within a given local church, between its members, and I'd love you to speak to that.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: What's the solution?
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: How do we get?
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: past that Humility, christ.
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: Humility is missing from any sort of argumentation anymore.
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: Remember that's when we watch a debate.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: We want to see our side sweep the floor with your side.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: I'm reminded of what you're saying.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: I'm reminded of the Christmas truce of 1914, world War I.
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: I remember being in Oklahoma and seeing at the museum where it was called the Battle in the Trenches that's where World War I was right.
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: And you had this moment where on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, where you had the Brits and the Germans coming out and there was a truce for those two days there's a video on that and they came out and they exchanged gifts with one another, they sang hymns with one another, they played soccer.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: Wait, this is real history.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I didn't know about that.
• 51:13
  Speaker 5: It's incredible.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: It's on.
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: YouTube.
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: Did I see it in a movie somewhere?
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: It's on.
• 51:15
  Speaker 5: YouTube yeah, wow.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: These guys were shooting at each other.
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: You have two 18-year-olds who are trying to kill each other, some not even really understanding all that is happening, right, and without the access to the internet, to television, the radio and everything else that's happening.
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: You just have your marching orders.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: Imagine this you have two Christians that are trying to kill each other and calling for a truce in order to recognize that God is in this place, that we are fellow image bearers, right?
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: I'm getting emotional thinking about this, trying to destroy you in your future lineage.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: I want to kill you, and it's like we're holding up a white flag.
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: For just a moment, if the church did this for just a moment.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but you're not Lutheran, you're not Episcopalian, you don't attend Calvary Chapel.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: You're Baptist, but what sort of Baptist Are you?
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: Reformed Baptist?
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but which confession?
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: Are you Right To wave the white flag and to recognize that God is bigger than what is going on?
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: Have you ever had an argument with your wife and you're like, you're 30 minutes in.
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: You're thinking to yourself what are we even arguing about anymore?
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: We just want to be right and oftentimes and this is where easy I think that you're absolutely amazing in this area when it comes to, I just want to be heard.
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: I just want to make sure you understand the angle from which I'm coming from and that I'm okay with whatever decision you want to make, but you understand that I'm coming from this angle, this angle and this angle, and this is my understanding, my understanding, my understanding.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: You get that right and you go.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: I get that Great.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: Hey, god has placed you in charge whatever you want to do.
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: If we did that by and large with the church, the bickerings they would cease.
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: And we see in 1 Corinthians, chapter 11, with Paul.
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: So Paul with that daily concern of the church, the things that would come upon him, the weight that was upon his shoulders and the decisions that he had to make, and he said the least of all, that I would not expect the war that came from within the church that was upon him.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: So there is a greater war that is taking place and we have to remember that we do not fight against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against demonic forces that want to take us down.
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: If we leave the house realizing that we are in a spiritual battle, when we get cut off from that person, if you live in California, you're going to get cut off.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: I got cut off.
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: Today You're not raising a fist, but you're raising holy hands to pray for that person.
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: You don't know what they're going through and I remember reading earlier today about a woman who lost her husband and she went into the public and she had to buy groceries and she thought to herself nobody has a clue what I'm going through.
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: I still have to buy food for my kids and the sales clerk looks at me and says, hi, having a great day.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: You don't know what somebody's going through.
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: Slow to speak, quick to listen, slow to wrath and anger.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: So good, mark.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: It reminds me of what Paul says in Corinthians, where he's talking about believers, brother, going to court with brother, and that before unbelievers.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: Is that not to your shame?
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: He says why not rather be wrong, rather be?
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: wrong.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: Why not rather be defrauded, but you wrong and defraud and it's like against your brother, like Ray.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: There is that place where I call it the itch right?
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Why do we make that insult?
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: That's brewing in our minds that we know we shouldn't.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: It's because it's an itch and we just we got to scratch it rather than learning to hold back.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: You know, ray, is it an issue of self-control?
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Is it.
• 55:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's an issue of not having the wisdom that's from above.
• 55:18
  Speaker 5: You know, scripture talks about the wisdom that's below King James, devilish, that's in the heart of Demonic right.
• 55:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's demonic, it's in the heart of man and that's what we've got to recognize in all of us, and we strive to have the wisdom from above which is peaceable, open to reason, willing to yield.
• 55:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, willing to yield, just give up and give it to God.
• 55:37
  Speaker 5: I look at some of the things in the Old Testament, some of the wars, and I can't justify them.
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: They're pretty bloodthirsty, hacking someone to death in war with a sword.
• 55:50
  Speaker 5: If I was there I'd probably just go for a long walk or something.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Elijah hacking.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Agag the pieces.
• 55:57
  Speaker 5: That's what I was thinking of and that's because that's probably what he said when it happened, agag.
• 56:00
  Speaker 5: Anyway, atheists will often point to God as being a warmonger in the Old Testament and say God told Joshua to kill all the Canaanites.
• 56:11
  Speaker 5: And there's a good comeback to atheists when they say that you just say to them did this actually happen?
• 56:16
  Speaker 5: And they say yes.
• 56:19
  Speaker 5: So you're saying the Bible's right and they say no, it didn't happen.
• 56:23
  Speaker 5: So what are you worried about then?
• 56:25
  Speaker 5: Just like getting upset because Cinderella's coach turned into a pumpkin at midnight it's?
• 56:29
  Speaker 5: If it didn't happen, don't get upset, that happened, it did.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah, yeah.
• 56:33
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: Being the pumpkin yeah.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: That's a documentary.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so good, ray, it's man.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: Rachel and I were talking about this the other day.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: We were going on one of our glorious four-mile walks, which we do regularly.
• 56:51
  Speaker 5: It's pride.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Humility, humility.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: And I said to her, if you think about it, everything, everything in life that is sinful ultimately, or righteous, spiritual disciplines, whatever, ultimately comes back to self-control.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: Everything I mean I'm going to get angry with you, upset with you or not Self-control.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: I'm going to pray daily.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Self-control or lack thereof.
• 57:21
  Speaker 5: David Solomon, all those self-control.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, don't you guys think that it all comes back to self-control, which good news for the Christian is our birthright?
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: It's part of the fruit of the Spirit.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: We have access to it, and when we don't access it, we have no excuse.
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: No temptations come upon us, except what's common to man.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: God is faithful, 1 Corinthians 10, 13.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: He'll provide the way of escape so that we can stand up under it or endure it.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: And so, as I often say, it's not that we can't, it's that we won't.
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: And so we need to get back to that place of saying man, I need to access what I have.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: And I think sometimes it's that forgetfulness which is still our fault, because we're not training ourselves to remain mindful of what we need to remember.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: So it's again like the guy who has an eighth-degree black belt and has given martial art but gets amnesia, forgets, finds himself in an alleyway with some little pipsqueak trying to threaten him, starts knocking at the knees.
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: Hey, I'll get you.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: Knocking at the knees and he takes off running.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: It's not that he doesn't have the power, it's that he's lost that remembrance or that mindfulness that he has it.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: So we need to remember we have the power that raised Jesus from the dead dwelling in us and man.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: We need to make peace with our brethren.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: We need to go the extra mile.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: We need to be at peace with all men, as far as it depends on us.
• 58:48
  Speaker 5: So if you go the extra mile, will that be a five-mile walk?
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: Five-mile walk with Rachel.
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: Okay, do it.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: But we need to remember that, we need to keep that in mind and I hope, in light of what we talked about in terms of our outlook and perspective on war, that we check our hearts.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: Do we glory in it?
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: Do we find glee and like, oh yeah, it's great Versus, like thinking about what that means Human lives being destroyed, oftentimes for foolish reasons?
• 59:20
  Speaker 5: In Psalms God condemns those who delight in war.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, amen.
• 59:26
  Speaker 5: And do you realize your four-minute walk could be overcooked if you both went on electric bikes for a minute walk what you guys?
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: walk.
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: What you guys don't know is that rachel does the walking and she pushes easy in one of those little doggy strollers as I hold the dog listening to white noise.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, anyhow, well, guys, I, I, man, what a great discussion.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah and uh, I just I can't emphasize enough how much I respect you guys.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: Um, and you know we we joke a lot and stuff, but we love each other, we respect each other.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: The lord's given us a sweet camaraderie and partnership in the gospel, like we do this podcast, but behind the scenes we're we're preaching gospel together and we are ministering to people together and we're traveling the world together, and what a joy that God has given us this.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: And I think we talked about this recently.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: One of the greatest joys we have about the podcast is the example it gives other believers in terms of the fellowship we can have, because, friends, what we're doing here is something you can replicate with other brothers, that's all.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: We're brothers.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: We're sitting around a table, yeah, we're talking to these microphones, but we're like we get there's times I forget we're doing a podcast, we're lost in the moment because we're fellowshipping.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: We're edifying each other, encouraging each other, sharpening each other.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: And I hope you guys All right.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 4: Friends, don't forget to take your commandments coins the treasure chests all at Living Waters.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Here the Living Waters mug, the Adventist Study Bible, living Waters TV.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: And don't forget the podcast YouTube channel all at livingwaterscom.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: And don't forget podcasts at livingwaterscom where you can give us your comments, your thoughts, your ideas and hey guys, continue to send comments in Also on the platforms you listen to and to like and to share.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: Thank, you for joining us, friends.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 4: We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: Podcast where we have no idea what we're doing what EZ is doing.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.