Latest / Career Identity + Growth Conversations for Professional Women: Exposing the Hidden Reality / 060: Who Will Step In? The Responsibility to Recognize, Interrupt, and Respond to Harm

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060: Who Will Step In? The Responsibility to Recognize, Interrupt, and Respond to Harm · Career Identity + Growth Conversations for Professional Women: Exposing the Hidden Reality

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Before we start, this conversation will include topics such as
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: sexual assault, drugging, and trauma. We encourage you to take
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: care of yourself as you listen. We've spent two episodes
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: now looking at what systems protect and at the cultures
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: that allow harm to become ordinary. For this final conversation,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: we want to ask, the question that people arrive at eventually.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: What do we actually do? Not what should women do
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: to make themselves impossible to harm, but what do all
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: of us do differently before, during, and after harm occurs?
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: There are examples inside these cases that matter. In the
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Brock Turner assault, two students saw something wrong, intervened, called
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: for help, and stayed involved. In France, the Pellicot case...
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: helped accelerate a legal shift toward explicitly defining sexual assault
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: through non-consent. In New York, the Cornell case is exposing
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: a gap in how the law treats voluntary intoxication. None
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: of these things erased what happened. They show us that
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: response and prevention are choices as well. So today we
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: want to stay practical. How do we help? How do
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: we become better bystanders? What we teach the people we
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: parent and mentor and what law and organizational policy can
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: do that an individual vigilance cannot. We have built an
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: enormous vocabulary around how women should avoid violence. danger. What
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: we want to spend more time on is what boys, men, peers, leaders,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: and communities should know how to do when a person
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: is creating danger.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: I love this direction of this conversation today because most
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: of us are much more likely to be the person
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: someone tells than the person that's running this high-level investigation.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: And those first few minutes matter when somebody builds up
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: the courage and the energy to share. You don't have
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: to know exactly what happened, what the legal definition is,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: or what the person should do next. Sandra, you're so
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: good at this. Being a trauma-informed coach. I would love
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: if you could walk us through a trauma informed response
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: framework so that if somebody tells us and trusts us
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: with what happened, that we don't go into interrogation mode.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Thank you. This is, I think, one of the hardest
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: things for people to experience because we have our instinctive responses,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: especially as women, we want to fix. In the case
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: of men, when somebody they love is harmed and they
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: hear about it, their instinctive response is anger, rage. And
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: what Annette and I are encouraging you to do is
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: to acknowledge that instinct by breathing into it and then
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: taking a step back and allowing space for the conversation
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: to emerge. If you need to sit on your hands,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: sit on your hands. If you need to bite your tongue,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: bite your tongue. But the whole point is that you
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: need to create a space that feels safe for the
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: person to come forward. If you need to say something,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: you can say something like, are you okay? What do
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: you need right now? I'm so glad. you told me.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: We should never force someone to share details. We should
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: allow the conversation to emerge. We listen. We can ask
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: them things like, what do you want to share with
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: me about this? How are you feeling right now? I
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: think a lot of it has to do with when
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: in the process are we hearing about this? So for example,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: it just happened. That's a different response than, It happened
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: three years ago. I'm just telling you now for the
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: first time. How old is the person also matters. For
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: young children, we may need to break the conversation multiple times.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: For adults, they can guide us a little bit more
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: around the conversation. I think the biggest question, especially if
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: the event has just occurred, is what medical support do
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: you need? What reporting is necessary? These are questions you
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: can ask yourself that you can pace into the conversation. Yes.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Sandra, something that you inferred, but maybe didn't say explicitly.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: is sometimes just being there. There might not be anything
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: else to do except sit and be present. I did
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: watch a woman share her account on Instagram earlier today,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: and she talked about how Rain assigned her an advocate.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: And when she didn't know who to tell and didn't
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: know what to do next, there was this complete and
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: total stranger that came and sat with her at the hospital.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: And she said many times the woman didn't do anything
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: anything remarkable, but her sheer presence and the fact that
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: she didn't have to be alone in that moment, that
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: experience was something that saved her.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned RAIN. We should probably talk
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: a little bit more about RAIN as a resource for
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: those who are experiencing this type of trauma. Yes.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: And I didn't know much about it until today, Sandra,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: or this whole situation came about. So I'm a little
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: bit embarrassed about my ignorance, but I think that it's.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Good to know about it now.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: And RAINN is an organization, it's a nonprofit, and they
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: help people who have been in these sexual assault situations, cases,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: have been victims of it, handle the fallout of it.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the things that you're pointing out
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: is a couple of things. So from the perspective of trauma,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: you're not thinking clearly because you are in a state
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: where your nervous system is dysregulated. That means your cognitive
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: brain is not present. Are you thinking about what should
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: I know? Are you thinking about what questions I need
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: to ask? Are you thinking about who I should be
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: talking to? Are you thinking about things like what evidence
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: do I need captured? No, none of that is part
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: of what you're thinking because at this particular point, you
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: are in nervous system shutdown. Like your brain has shut down.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: You are 100% operating on instinct. The advantage of having
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: that advocate there is that they are there. thinking for you.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: And I'm assuming they also have some specialized training, knowledge, know-how,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: know how to navigate.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Especially what we were talking about in episode 58, undergoing
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: a medical procedure. There's so many medications that are administered
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: after your report of sexual assault.
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: It's a lot.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. And there's an advantage to having somebody who
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: is outside of your immediate network or as well, because
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: they're not as emotional. I'm thinking about your daughter comes
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: to you and explains this situation to you. You are
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: having an emotional reaction in addition to your daughter. So
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: are you also asking all the right questions? Maybe you
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: are because you're trained in this. Maybe you're not, right?
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: So that third party person, that external person can offer
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: It seems dispassionate, but that lens of I am not
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: directly involved in this or I'm not directly impacted by this,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: but I know what needs to be done. And so
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: I can be the cognitive process that walks you through this.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: I'm not so dispassionate that I'm not unsupportive or unsympathetic
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: to what's going on. But I am dispassionate enough to
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: be able to create that separation between knowing how to
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: support you and not being triggered by what's going on.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: And I don't think you mean dispassionate. Would you say objective?
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Sandra, this takes us back to the episodes that we
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: were talking about how to find somebody to help you
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: deal with a work situation. And we talked about the
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: benefits themselves. of a coach, a therapist, somebody that is
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: truly third party, not directly involved, that can stand outside
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: and say.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: Objectively with respect, what about this? What about that?
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: And advocate for you when you shut that switch off
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: because you're in survival mode.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: This is why you come with me. You're my emotional support. speaker.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: Your emotional support extrovert.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: I absolutely did not mean dispassion. I meant objective. Thank you.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: And I think in the case of a friend comes
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: to you and tells you this, a child comes to
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: you and tells you this, you are impacted. I mean,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: one of the things that you can do to be
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: present and acknowledge what's happening inside of you as well
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: is to really stop and slow the conversation. Yes. What
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: do you need to do to ground yourself? first or
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: to center yourself. One of the things that happens when
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: we experience trauma or when we are actively agitated is
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: our breathing becomes very shallow. So a very simple thing
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: that we can do is put our feet firmly on
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: the ground. Feel the ground under us. If we need
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: to grip a surface, grip a surface, and then take
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: a deep inhale, deliberately expanding your belly as far as
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: you can, and then just slowly releasing it. But making
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: contact with surfaces to remind yourself, here I am. I am,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: I am physically here and breathing deeply into your body
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: will start to slow down your heart. from racing your
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: emotional response, from getting ahead of your thought process and
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: just being able to stay. Now, if the other person
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: is agitated, right, please don't tell them to breathe.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: Or calm down or calm down.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Allow them to have their experience, right? Part of
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: you staying grounded and centered is to be the safety
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: in the room. So allowing yourself to acknowledge I'm having
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: a reaction, but doing what you can to keep yourself
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: centered is important. But what you can offer the person
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: who is in trauma is movement. So you can suggest
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: to them that they move. Now, don't force them, right?
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: We never want to force anyone to do anything, especially
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: when they're in a trauma response. But it is helpful
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: if they want to rock, if they want to stand up.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: if they want to sit down, if they want to
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: move their body in some way, that can help to
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: discharge some of the emotional charge that is present.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: What about offering a glass of water or a cup
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: of hot tea? Can also coming in contact with.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: A cold glass of water or a warm.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Cup of tea, could that also help bring us back
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: into our body?
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Anything, and that just even suggesting to them,
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: touch the ground. The thing that I always suggest is
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: suggesting it to the person and following their lead. Because
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: we don't know what other people's sensations might trigger further response. Right.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: So if I tell them, put their hands on the
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: table and or grip something, that action might seem innocuous
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: to me, but it may not be to them. Right.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: But yes, you offer a cold glass of water, offer
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: a cup of tea, offer them a blanket, but allow
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: the person who's been traumatized to be the one who
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: guides you. Yeah.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: I would caution unsolicited touching. of that person as well.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely. Yes.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: You could ask, would you like to hold my hand?
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: May I come sit next to you? You could ask
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: those consent-based.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Questions, but I wouldn't walk over and give them a
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: big bear hug if, again, that is not what they need,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: but they maybe can't say, I don't want that.
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: Don't make them wish they hadn't told you.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: You've actually seen me do that live. And it has
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: created discomfort where we have been in a group of
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: women and a woman shares something and somebody gets up
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: and goes over and gives her a hug. And I
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: have to say, I know we all feel like we
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: want to do something, but please refrain from actually doing
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: that unless you're requested, right? Because we don't know how
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: the other person is receiving that. the hug may actually
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: trigger a bigger reaction.
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you are so good in those situations.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: Well, I've learned it from others, right? I've learned it
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: from doing exactly what I see other women doing, right?
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: And realizing, whoa, that wasn't the right thing to have
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: done in that situation. And I think that's the other
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: part of it, right? Is that sometimes we're going to
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: make mistakes and we're going to do something that is
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: totally the wrong thing to do in this situation. And
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: we have to give ourselves grace. on that as well.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: And I love that point because one of the notes
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: that we made is what could we do in this uncertainty?
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Can we recognize that we don't have to have the answers,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: that we don't have to be comfortable, but that we
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: do have to be present and that we will figure
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: it out with whoever's entrusted us with that information and
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: we will be there for that person. I think that's
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: beautiful enough on its own and it gives us a
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: jumping off point to start with.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Mm-hmm. The other part of this that we should
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: discuss is what happens when someone decides to report something?
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Because a lot has already happened. I've seen this in
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: my own experience. By the time I find out about something,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: lots of things have already been tried by the person
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: who's now sitting in front of me telling me something.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: So if we take a step back and we look
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: at the Brock Turner case, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That showed
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: us a very different kind of male behavior. Two students
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: saw something that looked wrong and they intervened. And Meredith Fineman,
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: who you've already spoken about in a prior episode, describes
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: a quieter version of the same skill. Simply noticing a
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: woman's discomfort and refusing.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: To walk away. I really like that story.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: We put it on our episode 58 resources on our website.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: So you can read what she describes in her sub stack.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: We have taught women an enormous amount about surviving danger
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: and far less about teaching men about what to do
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: when another man is creating that danger. And I think
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: that that's an important part of this conversation.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: When see something.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: I noticed this a lot during the Black Lives Matters
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: protest following George Floyd.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: When we were called to witness, to stand with someone,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: maybe not even take some big, brave action, but if
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: you saw something to come stand by them, which is
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: what Meredith Feynman exactly describes. There was a woman she
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: saw being approached by a stranger at a bus stop.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: And Meredith was with her dog. She didn't do anything heroic.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: She just went and stood within eyeline of that woman
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: with her dog.
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: And they just waited.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Instead of going into the store that she was heading into,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: she stopped and she waited. And her mere presence let
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: the woman know, I'm here and I'm ready to take
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: action should we need me to. But eventually the menacing
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: person that approached that woman did walk away. And that's
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: what was called for many times. Many times it's enough, right?
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: You see somebody at a bar bothering another woman. Sandra,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: and listen, it's been years since I've been to a bar,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: but I've gone and stood by that woman. We're not friends,
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: but we're there for each other. And then slowly, bozo
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: number one gets the message and walks away.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: Is that enough?
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Is that what we need from the men in our society?
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Just to stand, just to witness?
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: I'm reminded of a scene in Hitch where The movie.
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Where she, Eva Mendes, is being hit on at a
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: bar by a guy who's really obnoxious. And Will Smith
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: comes over and gives her a drink and starts talking to.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: Her like- They know each other well.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. And the guy gets the hint and moves away, right? Right.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: It's quiet. It's not confrontational. It's not a big, grand gesture,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: but it's effective.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: So what is that equivalent of going to stand by
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Eva Mendez, if you're Will Smith in Itch?
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: What's that equivalent in a work meeting?
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Is it saying something like.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: Oh, we don't talk about our coworkers anymore?
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Or is it saying that was Sandra's idea? And I
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: really appreciate that you are expanding.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: On that, Joe. It's calling it out, witnessing it.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be anything crazy. We don't have
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: to go get the baseball bat out of the car,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: you know?
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Speaking of baseball bats, I did see a Instagram post
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: and I have not fact.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Checked this particular one.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: But she was saying that it's illegal to carry a
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: baseball bat in your car. But if you have a
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: glove and you have a baseball cap and a ball. Right.
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: You can have sports equipment in your car.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: You can have sports equipment in your car for some,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: you know, spontaneous baseball event that might show up suddenly
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: that you might like to play at. Right.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: But some pickup game in December in Ohio.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly. Recently, there was a post by a woman
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: that I follow. I made a comment about Dolly Parton.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: And the significance that seeing a woman whose body reflected
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: what mine looked like at such an early age, what
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: an impact it had on her. And for some reason,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: that gave a man in her sphere permission to send
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: her a sexually harassing direct message. And her point was...
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Why is it that we focus so much on how
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: women dress rather than on the behavior of men around
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: why it's not appropriate to hit on a woman who's
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: dressed a particular way? So we... make the way women
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: dress the problem rather than the way men approach women
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: the problem.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, correct.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: And that's something that boys can do. Yes. And men
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: can do, right? Hey, bud, that's not appropriate. Or we
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: don't talk about women that way. When my boys were 10, 11, 12,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: going through puberty, it was their dad, it was my
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: husband who had conversations with them. about you are going
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: to find yourself in situations where boys speak poorly about women,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: about girls. You're going to need to decide, is this appropriate?
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Do I want to be part of this conversation? Do
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: I want to challenge this conversation? I think it's really
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: important for boys to get that message, not just from women,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: but from men in their lives that say, you are
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: going to be called on to be a person that
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: has a sense of proper behavior, even with your buddies.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Respecting women is not just what you do when there's
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: a woman in front of you. It's what you do
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: when she's not present.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Great, great basic law of being a good human. That
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: brings us to this point where personal responsibility, good.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Culture are just not enough.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: We also build laws, policies because the consequences of harm...
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: can't depend entirely on, do I have the right friend
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: with me that will happen to be standing nearby and
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: stick up for me? And again, we've said, starting in
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: episode 59, that the law is the floor, not a
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: complete moral code. It tells us what the state or
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: the government can punish. Culture and ethics have to answer
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: the much larger question, which is what we expect from
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: one another before conduct ever reaches or crosses that line.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: There's been some great developments following cases. I don't think
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: we're nearly close enough. After Brock Turner case, which was
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: 2016 Stanford, you could definitely Google it. California changed its
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: law to remove probation as an option for certain sexual
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: assaults and broadened how the law treated sexual.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: Assault conduct, which is amazing.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: And then after the Pelico case, France changed its criminal
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: code in 2025 to make non-consent explicit. Sandra, that is
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: really what I think is challenging.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: There is not a lot of.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Clarity on what consent means and that when you're intoxicated
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: voluntarily or not, you cannot consent. You couldn't sign a
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: legal document. You can't consent to anything else. The Cornell
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: case has really renewed the scrutiny of New York law
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: because voluntary intoxication can create significant barrier in sexual assault prosecution.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: And that's not what needs to happen. Love to hear
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: your thoughts.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: It's interesting because sometimes, especially in the cases of trauma. Mm-hmm.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: A woman can consent to something and not really be
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: consenting as well. So even in cases where there has
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: been no drinking, where a person is completely capable of
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: making a decision, they may consent because power tells them,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: I am unsafe and I need to consent. Yes. We
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: saw that in the Me Too case. Harvey Weinstein. It
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: was specifically, I could say no, I could, but can
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: I really, if I want this movie, if I want
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: this career, if I want to realize a dream? No.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: And so even in cases where there are no drugs,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: there are no other factors involved.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: No physical factors, right?
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Like chemical factors can remove your ability to consent, right?
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: Correct. Your drinking habits. Drugs.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: You've been awake for 48 hours. There's different things that
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: physically make you not able to give consent. Maybe you
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: are not healthy. Maybe you have.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: A medical condition.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: Those are actual physical reasons.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Power.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: Reporting structure. And by power, I mean a lot of things, right?
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: A teacher. A boss.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Economic power. Oh, gosh.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: Economic power.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: The list goes on and on and on and on.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Politics.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: Optics.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Optics. And coercion is not consent either. And that's what
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: we're talking about. When there's power involved, that's coercion.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: It's not consent.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: That is such a good distinction. Thank you.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: And the challenge in those situations, right, is there's further shame.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, of course.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: Of course there is. Why did you go there? We're
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: back to the what were you wearing? Why were you
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: in that situation? Why did you trust?
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Sandra, how do you feel we are in a place
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: with this series of three conversations?
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: What else would you add?
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: I think the thing that I would add a couple
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: of things. I do have a trauma informed response framework
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: that I'm happy to make available. It's a two sided
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: flip card framework. On one side, it's the framework itself,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: what we can do. On the other side, it's how
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: to understand when somebody may have been triggered or may
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: be suffering from a trauma response and what you can
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: do to support them to support yourself. pre and post
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: event or like during the event and after the event
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: and how to get them support and help. So I'm
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: happy to make that available to people if they would
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: like to reach out about that. I think the other
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: part is there are excellent resources available, national networks that
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: support people, local, local organizations that provide direct support. Most
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: major cities have a rape crisis support center. One of
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: the challenges I think is that a lot of women
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: don't understand that they have been raped. I think that's
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: one of the things that came out of this particular
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: case is that the person may not have, Jane Doe
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: may not have fully understood all of what had happened
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: with her and or the situation she was in. So
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: sometimes I have seen other posts recently as a result
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: of this Jane Doe civil suit where people are saying
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: it took me years to understand that I actually had
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: been raped and I carried so much shame around. What
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: I thought was I'd given somebody the wrong impression or
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: that I had consented when I really hadn't. And so
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: some people don't visit the rape crisis center or seek
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: the support that they need simply because they don't realize
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: that this is what actually happened to them. So if
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: at any point in the conversation you feel like I
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: need support, please reach out to any of those resources.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: And if you're not sure where to reach out, you
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: can drop us a line and we'll see what we
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: can do to connect you with the right resources as well.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Finding somebody in your network, a person that you can
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: talk to, a person that you can open up to,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: a person that can help guide you is a great
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: first step if you don't have access to some of
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: these resources. If somebody reaches out to you and says,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: this happened to me, take a deep breath and be
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: present and listen and offer what would be most helpful
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: for you right now.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: That's so helpful.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: I think the important part of this is the majority
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: of victims are women. The majority of perpetrators are men.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: And it's important to recognize that when a victim is
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: a man, there is even added shame in that situation.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: So if you are a man in this situation, it's
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: even more important to get support and help.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: That's very true. Thank you for saying that. Sandra, across
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: these three conversations, episode 58, 59, and today's episode 60,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I think we moved from the moment of harm outward
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: first to the systems that decide what happens next. then
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: to the future that teaches people what they can ignore,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: then to the culture that teaches people what they can ignore, excuse,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: or interrupt. And finally, to our own role in shaping
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: a different response. None of us controls all of these layers,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: but almost all of us have influence in at least
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: one of them.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: And I love asking the question, what can I do?
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: I think that that's such an important question because we
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: often think I can stop this from happening or I
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: should have stopped this from happening. The reality is we're
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: never going to be able to stop every terrible thing
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: from happening. We can't make that promise. What we can
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: ask is when I have power, am I noticing? When
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: I notice that somebody is uncomfortable, what can I do
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: to stand with them and support and witness them? When
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: I am the person who is the more senior person
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: in the room, what am I teaching everybody else about
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: how to advocate, how to support, how to be the
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: one that can model behavior that could help others. We're
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: constantly talking about What are you modeling to the people
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: who are looking at you for support and guidance, right?
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Whether that's your children or other women in the room
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: or other people that are in the room, we're constantly
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: modeling something. And I'm not talking about just women in
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: this situation. I'm specifically asking men, what are you modeling
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: to the men that are looking at you as their mentor?
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: One of the questions we can ask ourselves is, do
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I know what people notice? Do I know If they'll listen.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Does the person who was harmed know I will not
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: make them carry the entire cost of everyone else's comfort?
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: I think that is such an important question, right? Yeah.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: This is the end of this conversation. It's not a
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: perfect solution. I think we rarely wrap up these conversations
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: with a perfect solution. But I think we now have
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: shared responsibility. I think we now have enough awareness. to
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: move differently in these situations should we encounter them again,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: to talk with the men in our lives and say, hey,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: we need you to move differently in these situations.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering if there's another question here, and that is,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: in our workplaces, is there maybe a conversation that we
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: can guide or lead as leaders right? Yeah.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: With the help of HR.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Maybe the most important question is not, is this going
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: to go away when the next 24-hour newsworthy cycle hits
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: and we have a different, more salacious story? Let's make
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: sure that we're standing in this for a while and
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: really looking for change and being a part of it
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: when we can.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Thank you so much for this conversation, Annette.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Sandra.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: As always, you create a very beautiful and safe space
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: to talk about all these uncomfortable and challenging topics.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Thank you.