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Eye in the Sky Don’t Lie: Benjamin Watson on Faith, Effort and Accountability · Sports In America with David Greene

• DAVID GREENE, HOST: This is a funny time of year in sports, the NFL playoffs. For football fans, we are locked in, obsessed. I mean, really, we can't think about anything else. Then there's everybody else, our family, friends who are looking at us wondering if we've completely lost our minds. I want to read you something here. This was a letter I saw. It's from the school superintendent in McKeesport, Pennsylvania, right outside Pittsburgh. Dear McKeesport Area School District, parents, guardians and community members. I'm writing to share that due to the Steelers playoff game, all district schools and offices will operate on a two hour delay. It was signed Donald MacFann, superintendent. I mean, could the superintendent have a more appropriate name than MacFann? Yeah, he was delaying school because he knew students would be up too late watching the Steelers playoff game. I love that fans get that, Non-fans, maybe you think Superintendent MacFann is crazy. This is the thing I love about our show, Sports in America. We try to keep everyone together and engaged. Fans, non-fans, and everyone in between. Maybe you don't care that much about the NFL, but you want to be able to talk to fans and not feel completely left out, right? Okay, so here's what you need to know. Wild Card Weekend is done and we're heading to divisional weekend in the NFL playoffs. There are eight teams left. And maybe the biggest story…the Philadelphia Eagles, defending Super Bowl champions. They're out. Done. They lost to the 49ers. And now there are a lot of questions in Philly about the future. So be nice to your friends who love the Eagles. No tush push jokes this week, okay? Then we have the New England Patriots. They are still in, their young quarterback is Drake Maye and the question in the NFL now is is Maye the next Tom Brady. Is New England about to enter another dynasty? God I hope not. I mean, Tom Brady might be the only name that comes to mind for you when you think of the New England Patriots. But one of the GOAT’s former teammates, a guy named Benjamin Watson, is arguably a way more interesting guy than Tom Brady. I chatted with Watson recently about a game during the divisional weekend of the playoffs some years back. This was the 2005 divisional playoffs and the Patriots, they had won two of the last three Super Bowls. They're down 10-6 to the Broncos in this game at Mile High Stadium. It's late in the game and the Patriots are on the doorstep of taking the lead. Denver fans, they're holding their breath. [MUSIC] [CHEERING] BW: We were on maybe the 5 or 10-yard line going in trying to score. I'm on the left side, you know, protecting his backside. Tom throws the ball to the right. BROADCASTER: Coming after Brady. Gets it away. He's picked. He is picked in the endzone. DG: The lightning-quick Champ Bailey intercepts Brady's ball, and the crowd is going crazy. BROADCASTER: It's Bailey! Bailey taking off, and he gets away from the one man who had a shot at him. DG: He's got a lane out of the end zone. He's racing down the sideline, cruising to a hundred-plus-yard pixel. BROADCASTER: Talk about a game-changer. DG: At the last possible second, though, out of the corner of the screen, you see Patriots tight end Ben Watson hurtling in like a missile to blast Bailey into oblivion. BROADCASTER: Bailey running it back 100 yards before Watson comes in at the last minute. BW: In that moment, I mean, we're talking about the playoffs, what better way to try to change the outcome of the game than to try and stop a guy who's, you know, one of the fastest players, and he, you know, was gonna score to ice the game basically. So I ended up catching him. BROADCAST: And it is a foot race, and the Patriots never give up. BW: Let's be honest, you don't wanna be the guy on film that's not chasing the guy with the football either. (Laughs) We're gonna watch this film. And so you don't wanna be that guy that's like spectating. If you're gonna be a spectator, you may as well get a ticket, right? So you wanna be a guy that’s actually involved. DG: Giving your all is one of the biggest cliches in any sport, but for Benjamin Watson, this was a truly cornerstone moment of his career, next to winning the Super Bowl or his 44 touchdown catches. Even for spoiled Patriots fans, this play stands out as a major highlight of a disappointing year, the embodiment of the do-your-job mentality. And the craziest part is, like, the play didn't mean anything. The Broncos scored on the next down and won the game shortly after, but it stands as a beautiful example of never giving up. Here's Bailey himself, years later, a bit in awe at Watson's effort. CHAMP BAILEY: The beauty of it was the guy that knocked me out of bounds at the one, Ben Watson, that was such a good teach tape on hustle. Like that dude was a tight end, came from the other side of the field, and never, never slowed down. And right when I just took my foot off the gas, here he comes. Bam! DG: All right, so let's get into our conversation on the show today. It really is a story about the fruits of pure effort, how simply working hard day in and day out can vault you into a position of leadership in a league so dominated by flashy highlights and fantasy points. [THEME MUSIC] DG: Benjamin Watson spent 16 years in the NFL as one of the league's most dependable tight ends. First round pick out of Georgia, Super Bowl champion with the Patriots, and a player coaches trusted. He built his reputation on preparation, consistency, and doing the work that doesn't always show up on the highlight reels. For better and worse, Watson would tie his identity to his performance. What made him an accountable teammate would also lead to depression and self-doubt when the game didn't break his way or when he couldn't contribute because of injury. Early in his career, he actually refused to wear his Patriots Super Bowl ring because he didn't feel worthy of it. Off the field, he's a husband and a father of seven, and those roles have shaped how he's navigated life beyond football. His Christian faith has been a consistent anchor, influencing how he has approached public conversations, disagreement, and moments when it would have been easier to just stay silent. Many fans first encountered Watson beyond the game when, after the Ferguson protests, he penned a thoughtful, widely shared reflection on race and responsibility that cut through the noise by refusing easy answers. Since then, he has continued to engage culture with the same measured posture, clear about his convictions, careful with his words. What's interesting is that none of this feels accidental. Growing up, Benjamin Watson didn't just wanna be a football player; he also felt the call of the church. One path gave him a platform, the other gave him purpose. And in a lot of ways, his life has been about learning how to hold both at the same time. I read somewhere that your parents said that as a child, you talked about wanting to be a football player and a missionary when you grew up. That's an amazing kind of high-level sort of goal to have at a young age. What was happening in your life that you think led to those being your two goals? BW: The missionary piece, you know, when I was about five or six years old, my father actually led me to the Lord, and I grew up going to church and seeing how my father and mother served people, loved people. I knew some missionaries as in overseas, but also understood that even here domestically, we're all, as believers, called to be sort of missionaries wherever we are. And so I don't even remember saying that. Again, that's one of those things that was told to me when it happened when I as a kid. But, I knew that I had a heart for sport, a heart especially for football, and I always could see how football and faith were married together in my experiences. DG: Why is football specifically sort of a good platform for that? BW: Well, sports is a common language globally. I mean, just last year or a couple of years ago, I guess it was last summer, the Olympics, and we as an entire world kind of got quiet during the summer as we watched Olympians, and we were able to enjoy the prospect of sport. I think also sports, not necessarily, sports brings people together in that way in that we're able to cheer for our team. You know, I see your Terrible Towel behind you like this kind of familial aspect of everybody cheering for this team. But also, I think within locker rooms, there's an aspect of respect and of humanity that you don't necessarily find outside of the locker room. And what I mean by that is, when you're going to work every day with a bunch of other guys in the NFL, this 53-man roster, guys come from different places, they have different backgrounds. But you have this shared humanity because you've bled and sweat with each other, you respect each other even if you have differences. DG: What role did football play in your life when you were little and kind of dreaming? BW: Yeah, yeah. Football, I mean, I have a picture of myself, I think, from like four years old, when like one of my first gifts was a football. And my father played football at the University of Maryland. And so, like many young boys, I wanted to be like my dad. So I always grew up wanting to play football. I remember playing football in the street in Norfolk, Virginia. We play on the concrete and then tackle each other on the sideline, where there was grass. DG: (Laughs) Make sure to tackle where it's soft. BW: Exactly, exactly. So football was always, I knew I wanted to play, especially in college, because my dad played in college. And then as I got older, obviously, you know, played college football, saw people go to the NFL, started thinking about the NFL. But I remember, I remember actually, I don't even remember this, but it has been told to me that as a kid, I would get in the closet. And we lived in Virginia. So, we didn't really have a pro team there. The Commanders were the closest pro team. And I would get in the closet, and my dad would say, "Now starting number 56, Benjamin Watson." And I'd run out of the closet like, ah, like I'm running out, you know, for a game. DG: The tunnel, yeah. Oh, that's so cool. BW: Yeah run out the tunnel. So just a lot of memories. My father would do like chapel services for local high school teams as well as college and some NFL teams. And I remember tagging along with him and just being enamored by players and just by the game. DG: With the encouragement of his dad, Ben's natural athletic ability translated to a prolific college career. He started at Duke, a strong program in its own right, but when he began to realize what he might be capable of, he decided to take his talents to one of the country's biggest stages. College was interesting for you because you actually did a transfer during your career from Duke to Georgia. I mean, how do you think about your college playing career and the extent to which you found yourself? Both as a football player and as a man. BW: I wish it was a transfer portal era so that I wouldn't have had to sit out that year because that year was very, very difficult. DG: The transfer year when you... BW: Yeah, when I transferred, yeah, I had to sit out when I went to Georgia, whereas now athletes can just play. For me, coming out of high school, I was looking at a few schools, ended up going to Duke University, new coach, had great education, all those sorts of things. And I think that part of the growing process for me was. I enjoyed my tenure at Duke, even though it was a year, but I felt like I was not honest with myself as far as what I wanted out of college football, meaning the opportunity to play at the largest stage and to compete for championships, those sorts of things. I feel like I made a great decision in going to Duke University, which I'm a big proponent of on the education side. And I felt like I wanted more out of my football experience. So I ended up going to University of Georgia. As I mentioned before, I transferred, it was tough, but I learned a lot in that process about who I was and the things that were important to me. DG: Drafted in the first round by New England, Watson entered the league with momentum, and then, almost immediately, it stopped. A torn ACL ended his rookie season before it really began, turning what should have been a learning year on the field into one spent watching, including the AFC championship game from a couch. That kind of early interruption forces a reset instead of proving himself through reps. Watson had to sit with uncertainty, patience, and a different understanding of what it means to belong in a league that values availability above all else. It was really a setback that quietly shaped how he approached everything that would come after. You get to the New England Patriots, and you were drafted right out of a Super Bowl-winning year for them, right? What's it like landing in a place that as a Steelers fan, I hate to say this, but was like, you know, in the midst of one of the most amazing dynasties the NFL has ever seen, and getting there kind of when there had to be some sort of championship hangover. Right. I mean, doesn't that, isn't that always the case? BW: I mean, you'd think it was, and Coach Belichick would always have a stat for everything. And for example, I remember in those early meetings that we would have, he would talk about the fact that however many teams who made the Super Bowl the year before don't make the playoffs the next year, or how many teams that went to the conference championship don't make the conference championship the next year. And in a way, just trying to let us know that it didn't matter what you guys did last year, you have to come prepare every single year. That was kind of his mantra for my entire tenure there. But I get there in 2004, I was drafted. They had won the Super Bowl in 2003. We won it again, my rookie year in 2004. I just thought that's what you did. You just won Super Bowls, and that's just what happens in the NFL. That is not how most people live their careers. But that was a tough year for me. I tore my ACL in my rookie year. And so I missed the entire year. Most of it wasn't able to play in the Super Bowl even though we won. [MUSIC] BW: I battled a lot of perfectionism, feeling like I was not contributing. It was a hard year in a lot of ways. Not just because of the injury, but because as somebody who has struggled with, I tie my identity to my performance. Even as a believer and understanding what God says about me, I still struggle with tying my identity to how well I did and because I couldn't perform. I really, you know, was down. My fiancée at the time who's my wife now. I was a jerk to be around. Like I was just, it was just tough. And so, but I did learn, you know, being in New England, there's a reason for the success there. Much of that reason is number 12, but there's also a standard, there's protocol, there is, you know, an adherence to excellence. There's the accountability piece that, you know, playing on different teams around the league, you find out that not everybody has the same type of, you know accountability when they walk in the door. And so those are some of the things like, you know, the success wasn't by accident. Again, like when you got number 12, it makes a big difference. DG: Tom Brady? Yeah. BW: Yeah, the success there wasn't, wasn't accidental. It was, it was part of, part of a process that I learned. DG: Being kept off the field because of injury ate away at Watson and was made all the worse when he watched his team win the Super Bowl from that couch. Coming up, how he channeled that emotion when he was finally able to play again. Welcome back to Sports in America. When Benjamin Watson tore his ACL before his rookie year in the NFL, he watched helplessly as his team rolled through the playoffs. I think if I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong, but your rookie year at the AFC Championship game was in Pittsburgh, and it was cold as hell, right? BROADCASTER: It is an icy night in Pittsburgh, but the place is rocking, absolutely electric for the AFC championship game between the Patriots and Steelers. BW: Yes, it was. DG: I think I was at that game with my now wife, who said after the game, she's never going to a football game, like after October in Pittsburgh, it was one of the coldest games in the history of Pittsburgh Steelers playoffs. We I was in the in the stands beers were literally freezing BW: Freezing! DG: In our hands. But I'm not the important one here. I wonder you talking about identity being tied to performance, and being your rookie year, seeing your new team. You know, going, playing for a chance at the Super Bowl, you have an injury, where were you and what were you feeling like? BW: Well, at that point, I was, during the AFC Championship, I was watching it on TV like millions of other Americans. I was... DG: You didn't make the trip. BW: No, I didn't make the trip. I was in rehab, and when you're rehabbing an injury, you're kind of, you're on an IR, injury reserve, and you're kinda on your own schedule. Like you, especially a major injury, like a knee reconstruction, those sorts of things. You have a different rehab schedule, you're not really in team meetings, you don't travel with the team. You know, you are on your pace, trying to get yourself back. And especially there in New England. There was very, there are very strict lines of demarcation between those who were playing and those who aren't playing. Like you felt that, you felt ostracized, so to speak, not necessarily by the players, but by the system. There wasn't this integration; come hang out on the sidelines if you can. Like, no, go up to the injured player box, and you're on your schedule. And Bill, I'm dealing with the guys who can perform. DG: Is that is that Bellichick just not wanting distractions like love you, but if you're hurt, like I gotta focus on the people that are healthy. BW: Yeah, I think that's part of his personality. That's part of the way he runs his organization. That's kind of an organizational tenet. In some places it's different. In some places, you see guys who are injured, "Hey, if you can make it on the sideline, unless you're fresh off your surgery and it's dangerous for you to be on the sideline, yeah, we want you to feel like you're a part of this." And that's not what it was in New England. And so that was difficult for me. DG: It had to add to the feeling of isolation and BW: Oh, for sure. DG: Your identity, too, like I'm not, I'm not part of this. BW: Definitely, definitely, it added on to that. And then you're a rookie too. (Laughs) And you know how it is when you're not a rookie. DG: Trying to prove yourself. BW: Not only are you trying to prove yourself, but you're also understanding that, you know, you're to be seen and not heard and all those sorts of things. So yeah, it was a snowball effect for me, very difficult. We get down to the Super Bowl in Jacksonville, and the guys on IR, you know, we were part of some of the things, but still, there was just that feeling of being separated. And so again, learning about that, understanding, kind of going through that process, I will say this, I didn't want to wear my Super Bowl ring for a long time. DG: Wow, why's that? BW: Because I felt like I didn't earn it. I felt it was a reminder to me of disappointment and failure of not being able to play for that whole year, and the team going to win and win all those games in a row, and me not being a part of it. So I got, had a Super Bowl ring. I remember, I remember going to, David, I remembered going to the ring ceremony was at Mr. Craft's house, you know. DG: Owner Bob Craft. Yeah, I didn't know we had those at his house. BW: Yeah, and he had it at his house. And you know, every team does this. That's kind of a big, you know, when you win the Super Bowl, that's next summer, everybody gets their rings. It's an exciting time. And I just remember going and feeling this sense of shame, almost. And again, that wasn't all from the outside. Some of that was some internal workings again with my own perfectionism and my self-doubt, those sorts of things that I had to struggle with. And again, my fiancée at the time was with me, and I opened the ring and looked at it and put on a smile, and was excited. And then I closed it up, and I didn't open that thing up for years. And- DG: Years? BW: Years. And I remember, I remember probably the next year or a couple of years later, Tom said to me. Actually, no, it was pretty soon after me. He said this to me, but I still didn't take it as, you know, as law. I still didn't open it back up. I still never wore it for years. I don't think I ever wore it. I may have worn it once or twice in my entire first stint in New England, the whole six years. And I remember soon after the Super Bowl, going into the next year, I remember Tom saying something like, you know you're a part of this team. You know, you're a champion just like we are. You know, we all have like our role to play, lke, basically, don't feel like just cause you didn't get on the field, you're not a Super Bowl champion. Like you are cause you're part of this football team. And it still didn't totally change how I view things. Clearly, I still had to work through that process over years. But I remembered specifically him saying that about that game. So it was, say all that to say it was a difficult process. DG: The deep need to prove he belonged was boiling under the surface, leading up to that divisional playoff game in Denver in 2006. It's almost as though Watson took out years of personal frustration on Champ Bailey when Bailey intercepted Brady's throw. You know, I just think about the story you just told. And, you know, the, that Super Bowl and not wanting to wear the ring and sort of searching for identity. God that so sets the stage for two years later. I mean, I think the play that a lot of people, you know, really remember you for, which is a playoff game when the Pats were playing in Denver, losing late. Brady throws a pass to the end zone. It's intercepted by Champ Bailey, and the Bronco defender starts just screaming a hundred yards to return the interception. It looks like he's going to score a touchdown until you enter the picture. [MUSIC] BW: You know, one of those things I learned, you know, you mentioned kind of growing up in football, one thing my father would always tell me was whatever you do, give a hundred percent of what you do. He always harped on giving total effort in anything. And I could remember a time I was playing football at University of Georgia. I was on offense. There was a fumble, a guy picks up the football on the other team. He runs the ball 50 yards the other way. None of us chase him because we figured we couldn't catch him. And Coach Mark Ritt made us run until we couldn't run anymore the next day. He was a head coach at Georgia. Fast forward to later that season, something else happened like that. All of us started chasing the guy because you just never know. And so I do think that over time, between my father and different lessons, different coaches, it had been ingrained in me not to give up. And then it turns into a challenge. Can I catch him? Can I knock them out? Can I strip the football? Can I help my football team in some way? Playoff football, the margin for error is so small. If you have, if you've got 11 guys giving that type of effort on any play, like that's the difference in playoff football. You know, it's just small mistakes here and there. And so, yes, it was all those things, but it also was, these are my teammates. You want to, you don't want to let your team down. DG: You're running probably full speed, like the equivalent of like 120 or 130 yards, because you're having to cross the field diagonally. I mean, did you think as you're sprinting that you have any chance of catching up to him? BW: Yeah, I did. I did maybe not because this is the thing in football. You don't know. You don't know what's going to happen. Like you don't know if he is going to trip over his own player. You don't know if one of your guys is going to like slow him up. You don't know if one of your guys are going to tackle him. So in football, anything can happen. Anything can happen, and so your job is always to control what you can control. What I could control in that point in time was running as fast as I can at an angle to where if I get there. I gotta figure out how to tackle this guy because I'm on offense, I don't really know how to tackle, so, but at least if I get there, I have an opportunity to do something. DG: I am, I wonder like it, the thing that your father told you about giving 100%, 100% effort, it can be dismissed as one of like the most cliched things in sports. But then I look at a play like that and you truly living it, not giving up, just full effort until the play is over. I mean, I just want to remind everyone who hears that 110% cliche, like there is deeper meaning in it and deeper lessons. BW: Yeah, it was about, it's about commitment, and it's commitment to yourself, you know, honoring the work that you put into something. But also like if you, what's the point of doing something if you're not gonna give effort, you know, give your all to it, you know? Like what's, what is the point in it? And I mean, I think that goes for everything. I mean, that goes like as a parent, you know why be a parent if I'm not gonna engage with my kids? Like if I'm not going to seek the best for them and pray for them and care about them, what's the point of being a husband if you're not going go all in, getting to know your wife, to love her, to serve her, to protect her, to provide for her, like to swallow your pride sometimes, to be honest about when you're upset, to engage, to solve those arguments, cause we all gonna have them. You know, what's the point in that? What's the point in being an athlete if you're not willing to count the cost and you're willing to, you know, do all the things in the off-season and put yourself in the best position to be successful? You know that, and that's something that you know we talk to our kids about, but it's something I definitely glean from my parents. DG: The strong values that Ben was raised with and brought to the game have carried over into his highest priorities for his own family life. The sacrifices, the leadership, never giving up on the play. It all informs how he shows up for his own kids. You've written a good deal about fatherhood and being present for your family, particularly when you're in a job, like yours, you know, like, like mine, frankly, that can take you away from your loved ones for long stretches of time. What exactly do you mean? Like, what is the advice that you have? What does it mean to be present and be there with your family? Like when you're actually physically with them? BW: I, so we got married in 2005. We waited about three years before we started having kids and had our first child in 2009. I remember when my wife was pregnant with our first, and I was talking to some of the guys, again, because I dealt a lot with performance anxiety, you know, the perfectionism piece tied to football. Like, I mean, things got rough at times during my career, early on, especially. But we were about to have our first child, and I'm asking all the guys for advice. Like, I'm terrified, I never had a baby before. Like, I can read all the stuff, I don't know what to do. What's your advice? And I remember asking Teddy Bruski, he was a linebacker for the Patriots. And him and his wife had a couple of kids at the time. I said, "Man, what's your best piece of advice for me as a husband and as a new father?" He said, "Leave work at work." I said, "Okay, what do you mean by that?" He said, "I don't care if you pull up in the driveway, and you got to take five minutes, 10 minutes. Like when you walk in that door, you are a husband, you're a father." Like you're not the athlete, you're not the guy who works for the Patriots. Like you're not the guy that the media loves or the media hates. Like you are a husband, you’re a father. So take off that hat when you get home. Now that's easier said than done because again, all of us pour so much into our occupations and rightly so that we carry a lot of that with us. We're thinking about the meetings that we have the next day, or we're thinking about the checklist that we have, or maybe the business deal that we weren't able to close that we want to, or maybe something bad happened. And, you know, we're influenced by what's happening in our work lives. But what Teddy was saying was that, as best as we can, we have to be present not only physically but also emotionally. Too often as dads, we are, some of us aren't present physically, so that's a problem. Some of us are present physically, but we're not present emotionally. We don't engage. Our mind is somewhere else. We're on our phone, or we're thinking about something totally different than our families. And many of us aren't present or even available spiritually for our families, and so that piece of advice was huge because, I mean, what's gonna last? I mean, when we weigh, if you were to ask any dad or father, what's the most important thing in your life? You'd be like, oh, it's my family, it's my family. But oh, really, really? Where does your energies go? Like, what are you pouring into? And while we have to work and we have to do those sorts of things, the challenge for me as a dad and for other dads is to pour yourself, again, going back to 100% into what we say is the most important thing, which is our lives within the four walls of our home. [MUSIC] DG: I really appreciate your openness about this, I, those Teddy Bruski conversations sound really powerful. I mean, you're saying you were struggling with some family stuff. I mean, performance anxiety, with your wife and pressures at home, and you found kind of companionship and advice from a teammate. I mean is that, is that level of closeness really common even when you're at the highest level, like in the NFL? BW: I've found, you know, so much, again, I've been out of the league for five years now. So most of my life, adult life, had been within a locker room. But there is a certain sense of openness, mentorship, that you see within locker rooms that I haven't experienced outside of it. And again, I think it goes back to the shared experiences. The willingness to engage with other people, challenge people, the love, and sometimes the hate. You know, you fight with your brothers, too. Everybody's not friends on the football team, but within that, you always have your group, your group of guys, you have your companions. And so I've found that on every locker room I've been in as I moved from team to team, you know, there are always a couple of guys that you know you gravitate towards and there's always a feeling that, as you got to be one of the older players, you're not just trying to, like, as I got to an older player, I wasn't just trying to teach the young tight ends how to run a stick route or how to run a post or how read coverages. Like I was trying to invest in them from a relational spiritual, emotional standpoint because we understand that the window we have together in the NFL is so short. But, as you look back on it, you can see some of these guys that they have families, they become fathers, they become husbands, like, that's what it's about. As you get older in the league, and Teddy at that point was older than me, he wasn't toward the end yet. But he took the time to invest in a guy who played a different position, a guy he didn't really know. And I credit him with a lot of me learning about what it meant to be a father and a husband. DG: As a Super Bowl champion, a veteran player in the NFL, and a faith leader for his team and community, the stars were aligning for Watson's next act. Coming up, we'll hear how he became a prominent advocate for social justice without intending to, and why he eventually embraced the role. Welcome back to Sports in America. In 2014, a national tragedy compelled Benjamin Watson to use his platform in a new way, as advocate. He says he never planned for his words to get so much attention. [MUSIC] BROADCAST: There is growing outrage tonight after an unarmed African-American teenager was shot and killed by police in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, Missouri. DG: I wanted to ask you about 2014. That's when Michael Brown was killed by a police officer in Ferguson, Missouri. You seemed really moved by those events, and you wrote a really powerful, passionate post on Facebook when the decision came down that the officer was not guilty. I think you, it was like a Monday night, and you were getting ready for a Monday night football game, but can you kind of take me to that game, that place, and when you learned the news from Ferguson, and what your reaction was. BW: Yeah, it was a Monday night. We'd actually just got done playing. We lost, I was playing with the New Orleans Saints, and we had just lost them on the night to the Baltimore Ravens. And at that night is when the news came out that the officer would not be indicted. Officer Wilson would not be indicted in the shooting of Michael Brown, Ferguson, Missouri. And that night, I remember we heard the news, and this had been something that everybody had been following for the last several months because I believe that the actual shooting happened at some point in August of that year. You know, this had been a summer of other shootings involving unarmed black men by police officers. Some of them were egregious. Some of the more just under circumstances that we just didn't know about. So there was a heightened sense of awareness about these things, and that evening, there were protests in Ferguson. Some of those spread to other places across the country. And I remember sitting up watching the news and just feeling a whole bunch of emotions. And so I wrote this Facebook post, actually, I just wrote some stuff on my phone and then posted it to Facebook, and it went kind of viral from there. And basically the thrust of it was, you know, my sadness, my anger, my fear, all those sorts of things, but also just, you know, where do we go from here? My sympathy, my, you know just, these issues can be so complex and so layered. And so I say, you know, I'm just gonna say what I feel. And usually, as athletes, you have to be careful with that because we represent our organization, we represent our families, we represent our cities. But I said the most honest thing I can do right now is to say how I feel, and that's what I did. DG: You know, Benjamin, I think that it's, it's the complexity and layers of what you wrote that stay with me so much because I, it was not like one clear message that you were sending. It was really nuanced. I mean, you were saying that you express maybe some empathy with the officer, you know, and you've talked about since then, that race is something that you feel is so much more complicated and misunderstood. In our country. And just the, the raw feeling of you working stuff out personally and not knowing exactly what the solution is or what you need to be calling for God, that's like so refreshing and in these times where I feel like people just, you know, jump to some sound bite or feel like they have to be absolutely clear with some message, no one actually reacts to something anymore is as a human being who's confused and seeking answers. And there was something really powerful about that. BW: Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate you saying that. It was, you know, after I wrote it, I remember going to work the next day and some of my teammates were like, "Hey man, my mom said that you wrote something? And I should read it. What did you write?" I was like, "Oh, I just posted something." I like, I had no idea. But I do think that there's, obviously, there are absolutes, right? [MUSIC] BW: Like prejudice, racism, hate, those things are wrong. And we shouldn't stand for them. The way we got to where we are is complex, though. And if we don't understand the history of our country, if we didn't understand how neighborhoods even got to what, to look the way that they look through legislation, those policies, those sorts of things, all those things are important in understanding where we and how we move forward, and if we even want to move forward. And so my biggest thing takeaway from that time, what it showed me was that there are people who are willing to have the conversation. Now the conversation is going to be uncomfortable for a lot of people. And those people will leave, and they'll exit stage left, and they will just wait for the next big moment to happen. But even as I, you know, fast forward kind of, you know, we talked about it earlier, what I'm doing now with the Just Life, my podcast is like bringing in conversations and people who were engaged with justice so that we can understand what it means to live life justly every single day. Like, how do we live in a way that is fair and equitable, not only as individuals, but as institutions? Like, what does that really mean? I don't have all the answers, but I'm willing to search for them. And I think there are other people that are willing to search for them and are willing to perhaps sacrifice for them if we see that as a goal, as something that's attainable, something that we should reach for. DG: You know, I read somewhere you were asked why you want to just put stuff on the table and like bring people to the table to have the hard conversation. And you actually used a football analogy. I think it was about the tape, that you know, you, you're going over when there's a game or practice, is it "Eye in the sky, don't lie?" BW: (Laughs) Yup! DG: Which I think about, it's such an accountability thing, and I think back to the Champ Bailey interception, you chasing him, saying that I knew that if I didn't run at full speed, everyone's gonna see it when we go through the film the next day, but you're saying that there's an aspect of that that we should all think about in life? BW: Yeah. "The eye in the sky, don't lie." That's the first thing you, as a matter of fact, that might've been one of the first football cliches that I heard from my father. "The eye and the sky don't lie." What that means is on every practice field, I guess they still do it now, probably with the drones, but there is a camera that is watching your every move. And there's a camera, we go into the film room after practice, and we watch everything. Like you can't, it's always crazy when you have a player come to the sideline and the coach will say, "Son, you blocked the wrong person. Why did you mess that up?" And he says, "I didn't mess it up. I blocked the right person." And then we all look and say, we're gonna watch this in like 45 minutes. DG: There's no way. (Laughs) Can't hide from it. BW: So there's no reason to lie. There's no reason to lie, because that's actually how we get better. Like we get when we're able to be honest with the things we did well, the things that we did poorly. That's how we get better. Cowards don't like watching the film. Now, when we watch the film, there's a way we approach it. We approach it with the sense of being constructive, learning from it, correcting the mistakes, not necessarily condemnation. But we're all trying to go to the same place. But cowards or people who love the status quo are those who don't want to pull the cover back and look at individually, collectively as a nation, what the eye in the sky says. We'd rather hide that. And so, yeah, "The eye and the sky doesn't lie," but also the eye in the sky is if we really want to improve on anything, that's where we start. DG: Sounds like a lot of it is coming to any hard conversation, being humble and being open to self-reflection, and like your own mistakes, which makes you like a vulnerable participant. You can't hide from who you are and what brings you to the table. And it's not like you can pretend that you know all the answers if you've made mistakes yourself. BW: Yep, yep. You know, humility is huge individually, but also I think when we talk about larger, more systemic problems, whether they be, you know, racial policy in America or things like hunger or education or these bigger issues that we have a hard time grasping. It's taking our personal identity out of it and saying, even though I didn't do something personally, what can we learn from this? Like, how does it impact all of us? Because we are, as Americans, we are the collection of our country's progress and failures, our country's policies and programs, and practices. It's like we're all a collective product of that. Right now, of what's happened over the last several hundred years. And so in order for us to identify the things that are happening now and how we want to fix them, it's important to understand those things and to know those things in a way that doesn't condemn you as an individual right now, but understands that, as, by way of birth, we're grafted into this legacy. DG: Since his viral post, Ben has leaned into sharing his keen insights on the intersection of faith, history, and our responsibilities to one another. You know, you think a lot about justice on your new show, you've thought a lot about race, as you think about this football analogy, "Eye in the sky, don't lie," what is one way you think we collectively could all be doing something better when it comes to those issues, and and that analogy? BW: You know, this isn't everybody's favorite thing. I get that. Some people are mathematicians. Some people like science. You know some people love sports. PE was their favorite class. Count me among them. I loved PE. But there is a, it is important to learn our history. Family histories are important. And by family history, I mean just the fact that I know that, you know, I was born in Norfolk, Virginia. My parents are from Norfolk, Virginia, and Washington, DC. I kind of know where their parents are from, beyond that it gets kind of fuzzy. But it gives me an anchor because I understand that's where I'm from. I'm the oldest of six kids. My siblings have been all over the world living places. My kids are gonna know about their aunts and uncles. So they're gonna understand a little bit about themselves. One thing that we all can do is dig into the history of our country collectively. And you don't gotta be a scholar. There's plenty of YouTube videos. Some of them are good, some of them aren't. But just go on the journey. Just decide, you know, I'm gonna go on a journey. Maybe with my kids this summer, we're gonna go on the journey of looking into, you know, the last 20 years of American history, the last 200 years of American history, whatever it is. I think that everybody needs that because again, the lightning rod issues, especially when it comes to race. All of us, in many respect,s are devoid of knowledge. We don't understand. DG: Don't be shocked or surprised if you've actually done the research and understanding. I mean, you can really have a feeling for why we got there and maybe how to prevent it. BW: Yeah, and another football thing, which I didn't do very well early in my career, was to not take things personal. And this can go for people on different sides of whatever the issue is, but a lot of times if you're going to watch the film and you play poorly and the coach is getting on you, now he don't need to call you out your name, that's another thing, but a lot of people don't wanna take the coaching and they take it as a personal indictment on them when really we're all trying to go to the same place and I have high expectations of you and think you can get there, but you gotta do these things differently. Like I have high expectations of our country. I have a high desire for this nation. There are several things that are going on now that need to get fixed. There are several things in the future that will need to be fixed. But my idea is high. And so that's why there's the critique, because we wanna go here and we can't get here unless we change these sorts of things. So it's like a calling up. Not necessarily a calling out or a condemning, although you need to fix some things, but not taking those things personal because we're trying to go to a better place. [MUISC] DG: Ben has also become a major resource for current and future players, sharing his experience so that young athletes can get out ahead of any potential struggles with their mental health. He's helping them name what they're going through in a way that he wasn't able to. He says that awareness can make all the difference in being a good teammate, business partner, or parent. One of the things that I'm so excited about is just peeling back layers and anything I can do to convey to athletes that there's a of value and being vulnerable in kind of the sports space, that kind of excites me. BW: Yeah. You know, I think that if I could compare it to how it used to be. I think there's been tremendous progress. I think part of that is social media, and now everybody has their own microphone, and everybody can be their own journalists and share their own stories about how they feel waking up or going to sleep. DG: Which is good and bad, as someone in the media, but yes. BW: Exactly. I mean, I think that this generation of athlete is totally different than my generation of athlete. As far as their openness to sharing, you know, their fears, like, I didn't have a vocabulary for the depression that I was bordering on until I went to go see a psychiatrist in year six. Whereas kids coming into pro sports now, they've had mental health coaches, that they understand that this is a real thing. Like in a ways that we didn't. So I do think that they are more open now to sharing, you know, their failures and their successes than we were. I think what it comes down to is athletes understanding that they're humans first and entertainers second and humans have struggles that are common to humanity. Humans feel lonely at times. Humans can feel defeated at times, humans can be elated and excited. And they can feel like they are invincible, and they can sometimes feel like the walls are closing in. And there's value in that because that's common to humanity. And what sports does sometimes, especially at the highest level, is it not only separates you, incubates you from the outside, but it places you on a pedestal that no human can really handle for an extended amount of time. Like everybody, at some point in their life is going to need some sort of help. And what pro sports does because of, you know, the viewership and the money and the acclaim, and because we idolize sports in our culture, which can be great and exciting. It also places you in a position where you feel, can feel disconnected from the people that can help you the most. And so that's what I would probably encourage athletes to really struggle with. And most of them do, and they understand this, they have people around them that reaching out is not an indictment on your toughness or your ability. It just means you're a human being. DG: Benjamin, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you talking to me. This was really enjoyable, thank you. BW: No, man, thank you. I appreciate you having me on, man. It was a great conversation. DG: Next time on Sports in America. ANDREW WHITWORTH: All the pressures on the line. This is like the moment you've been waiting for your whole life. DG: We'll sit down with O-lineman Andrew Whitworth, a three-time Pro Bowler, Super Bowl champion, and a 16-year veteran of the NFL. When he retired, he was the oldest tackle in the league's history. AW: (Laughs)I can remember, I almost just kind of like blacked out for a second because I was literally just like, alright wait a minute, the ball hit the ground. DG: Andrew is a legend, not just for his skill on the field and his longevity, but he's also widely recognized for his character. AW: There's plenty of knuckleheads in a locker room. There's a plenty of guys that I'm like, dude, your life makes no sense to me. Like, I do not get it, but I love you, and I will fight my butt off for you every single day. DG: How the game helped Andrew learn to take care of himself and the people around him. That's next time on Sports in America. This is Sports in America. I'm your host, David Green. Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler. Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Windberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa. Our engineer is Mike Villers. Our talent booker is Brit Kahn. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling. Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia, and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find Sports in America on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, the iHeart Radio app, you know, wherever you get your podcasts.