Latest / Beheaded / Perkin the Pretender | Perkin Warbeck

Transcript

Perkin the Pretender | Perkin Warbeck · Beheaded

0:04
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to season five, episode one.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm Megan Moore.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: New season, new us.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: New season, new us.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: Look at our setup, y'all.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: We stare at the camera.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: We look at the camera.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: We stare at each other.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: We look at each other.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: We look at our notes.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: We're ready.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: Where did you get that beautiful notebook, Megan?
0:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh, casual.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: I um I got it at Heaver Castle, uh childhood home of Anne Boleyn.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's cool.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: Where she lived and breathed and walked, walked and swore, slept, slept, ate, uh, played with raven.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: There's no ravens there.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: What kind of Anne did we see?
0:41
SPEAKER_00: There's pry falcons.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: I too was with you at Heaver Castle because we just got back from London.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: We had the best.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay, we okay, before anything, we have to address.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: We have a totally new setup right now.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: This is not something we've done before, as you can see, because we have a video component now.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: We're trying video for the very first time.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Hello if you're seeing us there.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: If not, if you're, you know, seasoned executionado and you're like, what the heck?
1:09
SPEAKER_00: They have video now, go check it out on our YouTube.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: We do have faces.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: We have faces.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: We're not just voices in the dark.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: And we are actually in Megan's office.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: This is real life, isn't it beautiful?
1:20
SPEAKER_00: This is where we record, but typically we're sitting on the floor.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: We sit here in this office, just crisscrossed applesauce on the floor.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Now we have a table and we don't know what to where to put our hands.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: We don't really know how to place things because it's very loud if we bang the table.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna do it.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: If you hear little stuff, it's very sensitive.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: So you know.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: So we uh but we have our bottles of wine here for you to see visually.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: Clural bottles.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Bottles.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: If anyone ever wants to donate us a second microphone, we're totally down for that.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Oh yes, we we experimented a bit with one.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: We are trying.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna see how it goes.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'd love one.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yes, this is all Megan's office.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: She has a little cute little reading nook back here, if you see.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: There's the broken Anne Boleyn.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you can they can see that.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: Nothing.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: They can't.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, anyways, we're new people now because we went to London and England together.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: We did.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: We went to all the places.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: We we basically walked in Anne Boleyn's footsteps.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: We saw so much stuff.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: It was crazy coming back home and like just telling friends, family, coworkers like everything that you'd seen and done.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: And even Megan and I, when we got back to Heathrow and we sat down and we were like finally took a breath, we were like, let's just list everything that we've done.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: And it was like, okay, day one.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, woke up in our tiny ass Airbnb that was we'll talk about that at some point.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: But like, like walked to the Tower of London, spent half the day at the Tower of London, went to the hang drawn in quartered pub.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, then we came back, had to change our shoes because we had shoe issues and blisters.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: It was raining so hard.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: So much rain.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: We had raining sideways.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: Megan a new umbrella because her umbrella was like how many umbrellas do we go through on this trip?
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Four between us.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we went to the William Kidd bar, which was next door, which we talked about in season two.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Episode saying, you know that there's a bar.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: Season one.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: You're right.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: Episode three, season one.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: We were like, oh, you know there's a bar in England, which is right where William Kidd was executed, and there's like the noose hanging out front, and we saw it.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: We saw the noose.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: We did it really cool.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: We didn't see a gibbet, we were hoping to see.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: No, there was no gibbet, but there wasn't a fake news.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: I know.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: Which I am also like it was very well strung up.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: And remember, I went through that saga of trying to make a noose for my Halloween costume.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: So you were impressed with the Yeah, and it was very hard because it's hard to get YouTube videos on how to how to tie a noose because you get targeted ads about are you okay?
3:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, can you talk to somebody?
3:51
SPEAKER_00: Someone did it, it was pretty good.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, it was excellent.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: Weirdly enough, I met someone from my hometown, Colorado, in that bar, which was very odd.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I've come here to escape all of you.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: Here you are.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: Like down the street from where you grew up.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: Talk about small worlds.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: I know.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: But that was day one.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: Like, just imagine that times what eight.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: We did so much stuff every single day.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: Like between historical sites and the pubs and the food and the fucking mushy peas, man.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: We tried so hard to stay away from no no offense to peas.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: But just like, but why?
4:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay, for example, I ordered, I got my option of a side.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: This was day one, and I got a garden salad.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, can't go wrong with a garden salad.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: Safe, we're thinking romaine lettuce, some tomatoes, like you know.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: It was just um cold peas and lima beans with um horseradish sauce on it with horseradish in it.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: Nasty.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: If you were expecting that, good, right?
4:49
SPEAKER_00: If you wanted peas with my horseradish, but as like you know, it's day one, we just need to take it easy.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: I want a side salad, like not what we thought.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: No.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: So that's England for you.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: It was England.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: But there was good food.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: We had one night of like a very nice dinner.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: We went to rules.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: Rules.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: Like if you ever watch Down Abbey or James Bond and they go, Oh, we'll go to rules.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: It's like a very iconic, the oldest restaurant in London.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: And had a reservation there well in advance, you know, kind of got dressed up, had a bottle of wine.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: Fucking stole our umbrellas, but it's fine.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: They did the code.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: Hence the umbrella story.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: Coke continues, Coke man's.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: So many umbrellas we went through.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: I love that when I went back to our hotel, because we were at a hotel at that point.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I told the concierge like they're gonna do something.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you you have to call the restaurant.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: Get our umbrellas, you have to let them know that our umbrellas are there.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: It's not a thing in the city.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: And she's like, Okay.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: I was like, so can you call the restaurant?
5:45
SPEAKER_00: Call the umbrella people, please.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: She goes, uh-huh.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: And she literally like dials the number, gives me the phone.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, thanks, concierge.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: And I had to leave this really awkward message because they didn't take my call.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, hi.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: I felt like my mother at that point.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, hi, um, my name's Elizabeth, and I'm staying at the uh citadines.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: Um I'm in this room and um I uh I left an umbrella there tonight.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: Can you please return?
6:08
SPEAKER_01: No, we weren't asking for them to deliver.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: We were just like, hey, can you not get rid of them?
6:12
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna come to the game.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like just don't donate them or throw them out.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: And you'd bought your umbrella at the end of the day.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, mine was like a Tower of London umbrella, so I really wanted it back.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: And we were just being negligent, like we just left and those bitches, you know.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: We got our coats, but not the umbrellas.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, that's the last, probably one of the last times we'll talk about the umbrellas.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: We will talk a lot about our London trip throughout multiple stories this season because again, we did so much, we learned a lot, we met so many interesting people.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, no, we we got to actually meet a lot of people that we've been looking forward to meeting, and some unexpectedly, like we weren't planning on running into, but that was cool.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: And it was, I think, like one of the most satisfying parts for me is I'm so humble when I see people that I really respect, and I'm like, oh my gosh, like we watch all your shows or we listen to your podcast or whatever their s situation is.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: And then when we were like, oh well, we do a podcast called Beheaded, and when the moment they're like, Wait, yeah, I know who you are, that was cool.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're like, well, that's us.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Here we are in the flesh.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: And that's me dropping my book.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I was gonna say sorry, I need to, I get I get wild.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna put this down, right?
7:22
SPEAKER_01: You be careful with your stuff.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: I think the the flowers are shaking a little.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: We're good.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: Elizabeth was uncertain about me lighting a candle, but I think we're okay.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: I can't quite see it on the visual, but there's a candle on a book next to flowers.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: You can see the glowing coming up.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: So watch, everything's gonna get really hot.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that is a little hot.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: Maybe let's just not touch anything.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: If something catches on fire, someone will tell us.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: Who?
7:47
SPEAKER_00: The dog, them, them.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: They will tell us in real time.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, there's a lot to unpack.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna London.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: There's just so much to talk about.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: We can't even talk about it.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: But I guess because we're having this specific story today, which we'll tell you in a second.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: Tell me a little bit about what your favorite thing was strictly.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna say day one in the Tower of London.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay, throw a wild back.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: This is really weird.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: It's not weird.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: I think I know what you're gonna say, but tell me.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: You probably do.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: We were at Ambol.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you knew it.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: We were at I think it's my favorite thing too.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh shit.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: You want to tell me?
8:28
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: I want you to tell it and I'll We both have the same favorite memory.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: I think so.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: Do you have a backup memory?
8:34
SPEAKER_01: Not currently, but I'll tell you.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: You share that story since we have a shared favorite memory together.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: You and I.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh, she's being very sensual.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh okay, backup memory for me.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Wait, why are you giving me a backup memory?
8:50
SPEAKER_00: I thought you were gonna give me the memory.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh no, I have other memories.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: I think I think my other favorite memory was so I've the one cool thing is yes, I saw a lot of the same stuff, but everything was just a little bit different.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: Amongst every single site that we went to, there was some like new information that we learned or a different version of something that we saw.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: And it was raining at the Tower of London.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: So we were doing the yeoman tour, and they didn't want to do the whole thing outside.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: So they just had us sit in in the chapel, which is an amazing chapel because it's where they unearthed a lot of the bodies of the people who've been executed at Tower Hill and at Tower Green, including Anne Blynn and Katherine Howard and Jane Gray and Thomas More.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, and they were all buried there.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: And so it was cool because it was a different experience because the entire time we were just sitting in the chapel, and the yeoman himself had a really like cool speech and a cool story.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: Low light was there was a freaking screaming child the whole time that everyone was just staring at, and it got awkward because the yeoman was making all these little jokes, trying to tell them like things about like unwanted children, even unwanted children screaming, like and then and again, there is a door if you need to leave.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, because you're in a it's an actual working Catholic church, so it's a holy place and it's Catholic.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: I think it is Saint Vicular of Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was Protestant.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh, actually, I kind of assumed.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: We should look into that.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: If anyone else, let us know.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, no, it's like a working church, so you're already in a holy place, it's very echoey, and then plus on top of that, you're hearing this amazing lifetime story of a yeoman giving his first hand account, and it was really cool.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay, highlight again, then I'll let you talk.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, because it was pretty shortly after the coronation, and so hearing his experience of the coronation was cool.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: All that said, the child freaking ruined it.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to dropkick it.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: But um, anyways, what was your highlight?
11:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, this is just a weird, eerie highlight, I think.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, but we obviously had to go look at the memorial for Anne Boleyn, which is right in this like green courtyard.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if there's a more specific place you want to call it.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: It's called, you know, um not Tower Green.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: The yeah.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: So it's Tower Green, right?
11:25
SPEAKER_00: And it's actually really close to that chapel you were just talking about.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, we talked about this later, but like actual memorials, not quite our favorite because it's very modern looking.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: Like, it's great to be there.
11:37
SPEAKER_00: It's such a cool, sacred place.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: Actual thing, eh.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: Could have designed it maybe better, maybe they'll read it.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: It's very glass and chrome.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: It reminds me of like you buy a little trinket at Disneyland with a little Cinderella slipper on it, and like that's kind of like here you go.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I digress.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: Weirdly enough, we get there, and this black kitten like comes out of nowhere, literally crosses our path, the whole thing.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: Very spooky, because here we are, like, there's already weird vibes at Tower of London.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: You feel it feels very eerie.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: It's a rainy day, it's just Megan and I with our umbrellas.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: We're trying to have this kind of like respectful moment with like Anne Boleyn's memorial, and then this like black cat just comes out of nowhere, and it was eerie because it was kind of like creeping along the perimeter of the memorial, like very clearly coming to us a lot.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: We got some photos, and it was just I did come up, like he was like rubbing up against us, and then he just kind of like pounces like through through her, like the middle of her memorial, yeah, and we're like and it was right before like Halloween and everything.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: So we're like, this is kind of like black cat crossing our path along.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it felt very eerie.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: There was like definitely no other cats around.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: No, I've never ever, and obviously, I'm not like I I don't work there, I don't go there all the time, but I've never seen a cat or heard of a cat or like Tower of London before.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: Of course, ravens, yes, all over the place.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Ravens are the only known kind of animal that hang out there often.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: Black cat like right before Halloween, and they also had Halloween decorations, which is I thought it was really cute.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: I took a ton of pictures of just the Halloween stuff.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, here I am in London at the Tower of London, I'm like, oh look, pumpkins, but it was great.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: So I think that was my favorite.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: So many memories, and then least favorite highlights also in the kid vein, was there was like a field trip there.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh, there was multiple.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: And I, of course, go to the restroom when like every child decided they needed to go to the restroom, and I am just in there, like in my little stall, and there's just these little girls like pounding on the stall, trying to get into my I'm like, there's an adult in here, like trying to just have a moment, and it's just but they were British, so they're cute.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: No, they're not that cute.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so again, we'll tell you many more things as our season goes on because we have so much to say, but we're not gonna spend this whole episode just talking about London.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: We could, we could, and we want to do a survey.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: Whoever wants to spend three hours listening to us day by day and recount our experience.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: I know.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, I still have to post.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: I will anyway.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: But today we are talking about something very special, very, I think um, I feel like if you know a lot about tutor history, you've heard the story in some way, but it's uh it's usually focused on a certain part of the story, and you don't hear much about this side of it, I think.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: And the story we're referring to is the story of the princes in the tower, which we've talked about before.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: You're mimicking my movements.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: Try not to touch the table.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: Um so The Princess in the Tower is again, I I I personally feel like a lesser-known tutor story because I feel like maybe people have heard of it, you know, seen it in passing, maybe seen it, you know, if you're at Tower of London, kind of an exhibit type of thing.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, but we and we've referenced it on this show.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: But the specifics of the story we're gonna tell you before we get into our person of the day.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: So we're talking late 1400s England at this point, right?
15:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, we have King Edward IV on the throne, and at this point he has essentially two heirs.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: We have Edward V of England, who's about twelve-ish, and we have Richard of Strewsbury, the Duke of York, who's about nine years old.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: And again, both of them are in line to inherit the throne of England.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: Their mother, uh, we've also referenced her on this show before, is Elizabeth Woodville.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: So everything's kind of shaping up.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: These boys are gonna, you know, eventually take over, and the king kind of suddenly dies in 1483.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden, the two boys are lodged at the Tower, um, the Tower of London by their uncle, Uncle Richard, who is the Duke of Gloucester, if I say that correctly.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: Gloucester.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: Gloucester.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: Gloucester.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, and essentially they're like, oh, we're gonna house them here as we prep for Edward's coronation, because Edward's the next king.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: He's Edward V, right?
15:58
SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden, they're essentially declared illegitimate.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: Richard becomes king, the uncle Richard becomes Richard III, and then they are gone.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: The boys are both gone, they've disappeared without a trace.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: Like poof.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: And there's and there's records though of people seeing them at first.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: And they would be playing outside, they would let them out like dogs, and be like, okay, have your recess time.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: And then they just saw less and less and less of them until by July, about there no one saw them again.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: And so it was always this big mystery, and I think people at the time just assumed, well, like, obviously, they were murdered, because where else would they go?
16:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, what happened to them?
16:44
SPEAKER_00: Two boys who are again one day playing at the tower and one day gone don't just like you know, they don't just go away, especially if they're royal, especially if they're noble.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: And but um finally, like around 1674, there's some tower workmen that are kind of excavating in the tower, and they happen to find the bones of two small skeletons um like underneath the staircase.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: So they they find this wooden box, there's two small skeletons in it, and it's basically a very well like widely received belief right now that the that those were the boys, those were the princes in the tower that disappeared.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: That's Edward and Richard.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: Um so like people believe this so much so that like even King Charles II, uh kind of modern times, had uh the bones buried in Westminster Abbey, which we also saw.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we went to Westminster Abbey, we saw the box, the remains.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: So, like again, like saying how I'm sure our travels to London were gonna You're gonna hear us talking about it a lot of what our references are, but when we were at the Tower of London, there is an exhibit of the room of supposedly where the the boys were, like where their opponents were.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: And they have like some cool like projection, like kind of a spooky story.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: It reminded me of like Harry Potter when they tell the story of the um Deathly Hollows, it kind of has that type of animation.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: And then when you go to Westminster Abbey, they have the not the coffins, but you got the tombs with the remains in there, and they basically have called it the two princes, but Queen Elizabeth II refused to have the bones actually DNA tested to prove if they were or if they were not.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: Because I think her take is like let's just stick with this story, kind of like let's let's just like put them to peace and let's not just like tear it apart more because I think imagine the disappointment if you're like okay, this these aren't them, then who are they?
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Who are they?
18:40
SPEAKER_01: But also it kind of closes this this the tomb a little bit, shall we say?
18:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, let's close the story on this, let's like set the chapter down and just accept the fact that those are supposedly the princes.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: But I know.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: And it's hard to say if they'll ever be DNA tested because obviously it's kind of at like the will of whoever's the monarch.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: No, I mean maybe Charles Charles III is you know saying, hey, we do want this mystery solved.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it is time to do it.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: We don't need to stick to these old beliefs, but maybe he also believes uh, you know, let's just not open up.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: Let's let the peace remain peace, if it is peace, who knows?
19:15
SPEAKER_00: But long story short, that's the little gist of the princess in the tower.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: It was cool seeing the exhibit there and going into more detail when we're actually at the Tower of London.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: But there is this, like, I think the biggest conspiracy theory that you want to say is out there is that uh King Richard III got on the throne by murdering the two boys, whether he did it himself or like had a you know henchmark or Beaufort or someone eating Buckingham.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: There's there's different people that they think there's everyone has like their own theory and their own version of it.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: I think it was definitely someone, if it wasn't Richard III himself, I think it was someone who was definitely in his inner circle.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: Um but the other cool thing that we did see also not not just the actual tombs at Westminster Abbey, but we did the like behind the scenes tour, and there's this courtyard, and they actually point out the room where Elizabeth Woodville, which would have been, yeah, which would have been the prince's mother and Edward Edward IV's wife.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: So after Edward died, and there, you know, there's all this chaos of who's next on the throne.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: They say, Hey, you should probably go to sanctuary in Westminster Abbey.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
20:25
SPEAKER_01: Bring the little one, bring Richard with you.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: And Richard was with her at first with her other kids.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: And so we saw the room.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, we weren't in it, but they pointed it out.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is where she would have been.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: And then Richard, Uncle Richard, was like, you know what, actually, let me get he's safer with let me get the little one and yeah, bring them back with Edward, and we'll put them both in the tower.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna protect them both.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, the tower is the safest place in England, type of thing.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: And it is where and most dangerous, and it is where you were held for a coronation too.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: Like Anne Blynn also stayed in the tower before her coronation, so it kind of made sense.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: But we had a really good tour guide who kind of visualized it for all of us.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: He's like, imagine, like right here would have been where like he's waving bye to his mom through the window, like, okay, I'll see you soon.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: And she never sees him again.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: And then never knows what happens.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not only doesn't see him, but then has this big mystery of where he and his brother both lived.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: So still to this day, you know, again, people have speculation, but there's no real conclusion here.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: So that brings us to our story of the day.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: And this is a person named Perkin Warbook.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: Alright.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna do the story in a little bit of a different way.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: But what you need to know about Perkin is Perkin is a person who comes forward at a certain age.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: He's around 16, 17, and says, Hey guys.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: Yo, I've been in hiding a bit.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually Richard, the younger brother.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: The nine year old.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: The nine-year-old.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: My brother died.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: Edward, he was murdered because no one wanted him on the throne.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: I had to essentially go to another country, hide amongst Yorkist sympathizers, uh, and now I'm back.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: Hey.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: What's up?
22:13
SPEAKER_00: So the year is 1490.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is gonna get a little confusing because he is.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: Which means we need some Vino.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, some Vino?
22:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because his name is Perkin.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: Don't mind the gulping.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, but he's calling himself Richard.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: So the year is 1490.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: He's now saying, I am Richard, I am the lost prince.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: I love the background sound effects.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, my dear.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, as Elizabeth said, he was saying, he actually did say, you know what?
22:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Edward, my older brother, he was murdered.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: They spared me because of my innocence and my age, and I was so cute.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: So they said exactly that.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so he's like, I can finally come out and say who I am.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: So he has this idea.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of Yorkists who don't think at the time Henry the Seventh is on the throne.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: So Battle of Bosworth happens, Henry the Seventh quite physically takes over, takes out Richard III, takes the crown, and so now Henry the Seventh is our first Tudor monarch starting the two the Tudor dynasty.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: And realizing how much I'm speaking with my hands when I get excited.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: They can see it now.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: Meh.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes she hits me when I take you out through.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh okay, so there are, as always, I think like in any modern day, there's always two sides to everything.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: And there are not everybody wants a tutor, this new dynasty on the throne.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: Some of them feel like no, the Yorkist should be on the throne.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: And if there is one of the princes who that he was in line, then we should have a York on the throne.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: So, um, quote unquote Richard slash Perkin 1491, he goes to Ireland and he tries to gain supporters.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: He's thinking, you know what, like they're pretty rebellious over there, and there's a lot of pro-Yorkists over in Ireland.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Good place to, you know, figure out how to yeah, uh dismantle the throne.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, he got very little support in Ireland.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: So he tries a new plan.
24:20
SPEAKER_01: He goes over to Europe, back to where he was, and he ends up in France.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: Charles the Eighth is the king of France, and he actually really supported Perkinslash Richard for a while.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: Um and he he started gaining a lot of supporters in France.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Um it got a little weird at one point.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna this the story has a lot of of him bouncing around, so bear with us.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: Over in France, Margaret of Burgundy, she is interestingly enough, she is the sister of Edward IV, who would have been Richard's aunt.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: So Richard and Edward the boys, it's his father, King Edward IV, and his sister is Margaret of Burgundy.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: So the aunt, aunt, aunt of Richard, um, she was totally on board for this.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: She's like, yeah, this is Richard.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: Let's like totally forget the fact that she actually left England before the boys were even born, so she actually never even knew what they would have looked like.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: But she just felt it in her bones, and she said, He looks like Edward IV.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people said he looked like Edward IV.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he apparently had a striking resemblance to the family.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, so a lot of it was kind of unquestioned because it was like, oh, you're uh you're the same age, you look like them.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, because uh, you know, he was finely dressed in things, people assumed, like, oh, you look royal, you look like somebody that could be, you know, part of these noble families.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: So there wasn't a ton of questioning, and I will say, even if there was some speculation, I think people were just kind of like, oh, whether or not this guy is, let's just push him on the throne anyway.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: We don't like Henry VII.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: Because we don't love Henry VII.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, then and and then this is where it gets really controversial.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: Did Margaret of Burgundy actually know that he wasn't Richard, but she just didn't care at this point because she didn't want Henry the Seventh on the throne?
26:22
SPEAKER_01: Or did she truly in her heart think that that was her nephew?
26:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, but she she went so far as to tutor him, even like it wasn't just like, oh, hey, buddy, like you know, good to see you again.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: It was welcome back.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was like she was kind of taking him under her wing a bit and showing him the ropes, kind of teaching him about the the Yorkists and a little bit about the family history.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Reminds me a lot of like Anastasia.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: I was just I just had that light bulb too.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: I just had the whole little like the song.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: So, like, I never cared for Stroganoff, she said that like a Romanoff, you know.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: He's in training, he's he's in training to be himself, and there was a theme song about it.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: Probably.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: They went through a montage across Europe, but she's training him with the song.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: They probably shopped in Paris for very expensive clothing.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: I think it was a whole thing.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: But actually, though, he did start attending banquets and events, even like a very prestigious funeral.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Like they were kind of pulling him in as part of the family, right?
27:17
SPEAKER_01: And they started calling him King Richard IV of England.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: Like, dude.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what's crazy, is I think again, so many monarchs just wanted to accept this as truth, whether or not they actually believed it.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: A lot of them were just kind of following suit, like, oh, well, these people believe them.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: His own aunt believes him.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, so they started calling him either Duke of York or they called him Richard IV of England, which is wild.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: So he started to get some pretty prominent um English supporters, and I'm gonna name some of them off here.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: But there was Lord Fitzwater, there was Sir Montfort, uh Sir Thomas Thwaites, there was Sir William Stanley, Sir Robert Clifford, Robert Radcliffe, Radcliffe, but like Lords, like very higher-up nobility type people.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: William Day Aberney.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, so a lot of these people were like, absolutely, we're sticking with him.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, this is our guy, and we're gonna put him on the throne.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well and that's the big deal because the whole thing is like, okay, if he truly is actually the one next in line, then Henry the Eighth.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: Henry the Seventh is out.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: And of course, Henry the Seventh is pissed.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: He's like, no, this I and I think especially for him, because he didn't just inherit the crown, he had to freaking fight for it quite literally on the battle field.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: So he's taking this very personal and he kind of starts playing his cards.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: He's like, yo, okay, if you are really gonna keep supporting this richer guy, quote unquote, I am going to cut off trade to Burgundy, yeah, which is a huge deal.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: That's a big mode of financial gain for France, and they really rely on that.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: So it makes Charles the Eighth, a France, start thinking, like, oh, how much do we really want to support this guy?
29:09
SPEAKER_01: He actually, like, I don't I I don't feel like they use these terms, but it's almost like Henry the Seventh sued them.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: And in a way, yeah.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Charles ended up paying£159,000 and signed a treaty saying that he, like, obviously it wasn't specific saying this actual person, but he signed a treaty.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: It's called the Treaty of Etapples.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't think I'm saying that right.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: But probably eat eatables?
29:38
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: E-T-A-P-L-E-S.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: It's like staples but with an E in front.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: That's easy.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, anyways, he signed a treaty saying, I will not harbor any rebels of England that are against King Henry the Seventh.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: Like it was so specific, but not specific at the same time.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: But in return, you're probably thinking, like, why would you just pay money and give up all of this?
30:05
SPEAKER_01: But in turn, he was then claimed as the ruler of Burgundy.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: So, or sorry, not Burgundy, ruler of douche of Brittany.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: Good.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: He got another title.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Like it was an area of land that up until this point, yeah, England had basically taken, like they owned it, but then they made a negotiation.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: Charles the Eighth now gets to own and be the ruler of this area.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: Also, they've agreed to continue doing trade with Burgundy, and he has to pay 160 159,000 pounds.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, all that said and done, he booted out this Richard guy.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: He was like, sorry, buddy, I took a pretty good deal and now you have to leave.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: And I think Richard, because of his level of fame now, is starting to be a threat, whether he is Richard or not Richard, right?
30:56
SPEAKER_00: Because it's one of those things where, okay, at first you're like, oh ha ha, he's Richard, sure, whatever you say, bud.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: But once he starts gaining enough support, especially from these like these lords, these knights, like these very prominent people in society, um, people start taking it seriously.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: So people have to start kind of saying whether or not they're with him or against him.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: And that's what it's coming down to at this point.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it goes so far as like his main supporters start getting imprisoned, fined, and some of them executed.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: Because it's now becoming that threat level.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: So um, just to kind of give you from the names I said earlier, like who had what fate, um, Lord Fitzwater was sent to Calais to be like imprisoned, but he actually um tried to escape while he was there.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: Cool.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: I know.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: So he was um beheaded when he was there.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, Sir Montfort, Robert Radcliffe, and William DeBerry, they were executed on Tower Hill.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh Sir Robert Clifford, though, he gave up some names and was actually rewarded and pardoned.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then Sir William Stanley was also beheaded.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: So all of a sudden you're seeing these people that threw all their weight at, you know, at this, through they threw their name behind this guy and said, Hey, he's our guy, he's Richard, he's coming to claim the throne.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden you're seeing them vanish off the face of the earth.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: Much like the princes.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Ooh, ooh.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, for anyone who has watched The White Queen um or read Philippe Gregory's um book.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, it's based off of Philippe O'Gregory's book.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I love this scene, it's so dramatic, and I don't want to like give spoilers, but if you're listening to this, you're already gonna know the ending.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was like King Henry the Seventh had them all rounded up in their court, and he just starts like literally pulling names out of a hat of like who was all like at what point who yeah, who was um encouraging the whole Richard situation, yeah, and then they were just getting like taken out one by one by guards, and everyone's just sitting there like scared, and it's kind of like like I felt like a mean girl situation, like raise your hand if you too haven't personally victimized by Regina George, it's like the teachers.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, so so now the year is uh 1495.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: So at this point, I believe uh Richard is like 21-ish.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Richard.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: Again, air quotes Richard.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, so at this point, he actually goes to Kent.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: What news from Kent?
33:28
SPEAKER_00: And he goes to rally support there.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: Because at this point, he's kind of ready to take England a little more seriously.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: He's been kind of hiding in Ireland, Scotland, right?
33:36
SPEAKER_00: But now he's ready to like figure out how he can really get more English support now that his other co-conspirators are dead.
33:43
SPEAKER_00: But he's confronted by locals there who are very loyal to King Henry VII, and this leads to the Battle of Deal.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, so there was only about 150 soldiers that he brought with him to this land in the first place, and before he could even like disembark and like be in Kent, like they were all killed.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Like his army was kind of wiped out because they were a very feeble army.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, so then he what does he do?
34:08
SPEAKER_00: Because he doesn't know what to do in these situations, he goes back to Ireland because this is the only place where he has any.
34:12
SPEAKER_01: The Irish seem to be easygoing.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: Apparently, the Irish are always they're always mad, like they're always looking for.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: They're always ready for the get their pitchforks for something.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: So he flees to Ireland.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: Turns out that didn't even work so well for him, so he actually had to go to Scotland.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: But so again, bouncing around around.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: He really tried everything, he's very resourceful, man.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: He tries to figure out how to get support where he could find it.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: Um but when he gets there, he is actually Yes, to Scotland, thank you.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: When he gets there, he's actually very well received by King James IV of Scotland.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: Which, if you know who King James IV is, he is actually grandfather to Mary Queen of Scots.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: See season one finale.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, but so so King James is like, hmm, here's a man that can maybe do my bidding.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: Again, whether or not he believes Richard is who he says he is, he takes him under his wing and says, Okay, let's let's calm down here, let's stay in Scotland and let's figure out how we can get you on the English throne.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's kind of funny because at this point when uh he was kind of bouncing around to Ireland and Scotland, Henry VII like told people in his court, he's like, Oh, of course he would go to the Irish.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: He's like, I suppose they will like crown an ape next.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: Like he's basically saying, like, yeah, these Irish and the Scottish, like they'll just literally put anyone on the throne as long as it's not like me or you know my Twitter dynasty.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, he was again thinking it was okay, here he comes, and here they are ready to support him.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: I I just love this image though of Richard.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: Richard, we're doing air quotes for those not watching the video version of this.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: Um Richard just like living it up over in Scotland because they're actually very, like you said, very supportive.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: He's like a guest at Christmas, he's clothing him, he's giving him top-tier service because they actually think that he or you know, they want to believe for whatever political gain or not, but they are so convinced or trying to convince everybody else that he's actually the heir and should be the king of England.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: And and they even give him a wife at this point.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: He gets a wife.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's married to Catherine.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm gonna say her last name wrong.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: Gordon.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Gordon, Lady Catherine Gordon.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: Lady Catherine Gordon.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, her father is George Gordon, who's the second Earl of Huntley.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: So she's kind of a junior Scots noblewoman, so there's some conflicting beliefs about that.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: Like But that that in itself, though, is marriage was everything of how you gain your title, right?
36:45
SPEAKER_01: And how you move up in the ranks.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: Right.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: And the fact that he is now married to a lady who is the daughter of a lord, whether or not he's a-second earl, whether or not he's actually who he says he is.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: He went from nothing to someone.
36:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, that there's again, that's why it's like one of those positions where like she was noble, but she was like a junior noble.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: So junior noble.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: So people were like, Well, yes, like this is an important, I guess, alliance, but at the same time, like, if he was actually the king, is it that important of alliance?
37:16
SPEAKER_00: So it was like, yeah, it's good for you if you come from nothing.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: It's not good for you if you're the future king.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: So people I see people were very, I guess, kind of confused on how to perceive that because it was like, Oh, here's this wedding, yay, we're having this beautiful celebration, and some people were like, Oh, good for you, and others were like, yo, if he's the king, he should be marrying some like junior noble girl.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: We gotta get like a princess of Spain to come here.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's a good position to be.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, if I had to go back in time, oh, it's a Renaissance or medieval times.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: No, I would want to be a junior noble, like you don't want to be too high up where you're always at risk of being the center of something and then where you could get your head cut off at any point.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: Like, you're comfortable, but you're not in the thick of it all.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: I would I want to be a junior noble.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: That's a new goal, junior noble, please.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: I love it though.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: James even provided Richard his clothing for his wedding, like he was there, and to have the king of Scotland there and support him and clothing you during your wedding, that's kind of a big deal.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, but James puts together a war and an army, and he says, Okay, new king of England, you are now like our mascot, and we are gonna finally charge through England.
38:29
SPEAKER_01: And like this is tale as old as time, right?
38:31
SPEAKER_01: Like Scotland versus England.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: We always talk about it.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: And this is finally charging in.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: And this is September 1496.
38:39
SPEAKER_00: So again, at this point, um, we haven't called him by his name in a while.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: Perkin, Richard, their quotes, Richard, is about 22 years old.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, and James is fully prepping him to go into war and invade England.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: He even makes him like a new banner that's the colors of the Yorks.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: It's like a red, gold, and silver banner.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: It's the house of York.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: He's like, You're gonna go in and you're gonna reclaim your throne.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: Game of Thronesy.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: I do like that.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: But um James kind of like weaked out on us.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: Like he he backed out, he got a little flaky there.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: He did.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: It was a little unfortunate because he gave him again so much like like attention and like so many resources.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: And then it was kind of clear their army was a little bit weak and the support that they wanted in England didn't really materialize.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Spain at the time was a little concerned.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: They're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, Scotland, like you kind of need to run this by us, like if you're going to be going to war with England.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: So they started to try and broker peace between the two um nations.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: So James starts to slowly kind of back away.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: I would say slither away, because I feel like he never like Oh, slither like a slither.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: Like he never like fully just said, Hey, this isn't gonna work.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: Um Richard ghosted him, he kind of ghosted him.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: He was kind of like, Hey, here's some resources, and we're gonna send you on your way.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: Good luck, buddy.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: Have a good time.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: Let me know if call me if you need anything.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so at this point, I'm sure like Richard, quote unquote Richard, is kind of confused because he's like, All right, I just had all these resources, I just had all this support.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: And so he doesn't really know what to do at this point.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: He tries the following year to come back to England to take it himself because he couldn't get it uh, you know, with James, but he tries to rally again and in 1497, like also in September, he comes to Cornwall and he tries to say, Okay, he's really gonna capitalize on what was a recent rebellion um in this area of England.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: In Cornwall, they had just like rebelled against, I think it was the Archbishop.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they were really upset.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of pro-Yorkists in that area already.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, let's capitalize on that, let's take over that.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so finally he's gaining some support.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: I want to say he rallied maybe like 6,000 people for an army at this point, and all the locals are getting excited.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a very warm welcome, they're starting to believe his story.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's when who comes to say, Hey, yeah, enough.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: King Henry the Seventh.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: Again, this dude.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: He as soon as he again sees that threat level and that power again, he knows his army isn't that strong, even though at this point he has about 6,000.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, he comes into uh Richard, quote unquote Richard's party and says, Nope, we're gonna just end you right here, and they arrest him.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: So Richard is now captured.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: The other leaders who were all a part of this like giant 6,000 person army, they were executed.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: Others were fined.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of executions in the story.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: A lot of executions.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: Very executed filled story.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes, execution filled.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: Execution filled.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: Executed, execution, executionados.
41:49
SPEAKER_00: Drink you wine.
41:50
unknown: Clink.
41:53
SPEAKER_00: That's an ugly clink.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: I know, they're not crystal.
41:57
SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: People can finally see my Dobby glasses.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't think they can see it.
42:01
SPEAKER_00: You'll probably have to take a picture of that.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so people are executed.
42:07
SPEAKER_01: Warbeck is imprisoned.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: First, he goes to Taunton, which I did look up and found very little about, although there is still a jail that is, but it sounded like it was more from the 1800s, so I don't know.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: And then he got transferred over to Tower of London.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: Tower of London.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: The world's most romantic location, the Tower of London.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: My god.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: Can I just tell everybody?
42:32
SPEAKER_01: Sure, quick, quick side note.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: You only know when Elizabeth is truly drunk.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm not drunk now.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying right now.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: When you're truly drunk, you talk in that Kermit the Frog voice, and that's all you can do.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: No, I talk in various accents sometimes, and that night I happened to be feeling Constantine Kermit the Froggish.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: And that's what it was.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's the it.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: That's all you need to know.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: For those who've ever seen The Muppets Most Wanted, is it Muppets Most Wanted?
43:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, The Muppets Most Wanted.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: Sequel to the Muppet movie.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: Continue.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, that is so Miss Piggy gets married at the Tower of London and he says.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, no, he's proposing to Miss Piggy.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: And he says, We'll be married in today's time at the world's most romantic location, the Tower of London.
43:21
SPEAKER_00: And everyone cheers.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, the number of times that we heard that while we were at the Tower of London, we'd be like staring at the beautiful, like, oh my gosh, this is almost a thousand years old, and just taking in the history.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: And then Elizabeth creeps up.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: I want to hear you say it.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: The most romantic place in the world, the Tower of London.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: It it it made me laugh.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: It did.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: But I also, it's always like that meter of when there's when do you get into that voice just from the.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: You can't break it.
43:59
SPEAKER_01: You can't break it.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: It was about an hour of that voice for a while.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: Not at the Tower of London, but that evening when we were pub hopping.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: We were at the pubs.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: I broke into that a bit.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: I think people enjoyed it.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was a hit.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: And that's why we made so many friends in England.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: I did.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: And now I'm putting my pants away.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: I did narrate everything when we got back to the Airbnb.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: And then I put on the movie.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
44:26
SPEAKER_01: God help me.
44:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay, sorry.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: We're we're at the peak.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: We're at the peak.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: We're at the peak.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so he's taken back to the Tower of London.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, and at this point, again, he's he's surrendered.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: He's like kind of confessed, also.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: Like basically he's like and they parade him through the streets, right?
44:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: And he's confessed.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I know I said I was Richard the third.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: Or sorry, not the third.
44:48
SPEAKER_00: I was I know I said I was Richard, Duke of York.
44:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually not.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: Shit.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: And uh I'll tell you all about it if you just, you know, forget this happened.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: And again, he's what?
44:58
SPEAKER_00: He's 23 at this point.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: But think of all the people who've died.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: All the all the men who were executed for believing in him, the armies, the battles, all the people who died on the field trying to fight for him.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: So now, yeah, he's confessing.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and weirdly, weirdly, King Henry VII, who in my eyes is maybe just as unpredictable as King Henry VIII, was kind of like, all right, sweet.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: Well, hey, uh, how about you hang out with me at my court?
45:23
SPEAKER_00: He kind of treats him really well.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: He gives him like apartments.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: This is so weird to me.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: It's so weird.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: People were bored back then.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: I think they wanted a little intrigue to spice up.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm just confused by why why was he treated as a guest even after his confession?
45:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but he kept him around.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: He kept him around.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: And so Henry, the only thing that he did do was remember we talked about a wife, Catherine, Lady Catherine.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: So he does like make sure that the wife is not with him, so they're not allowed to like sleep in the same rooms, like be around each other.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: So he sends his wife away.
45:56
SPEAKER_00: What a shame.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: Are you upset by that?
45:59
SPEAKER_01: Teasing.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh and so funny side note, someone asked us how our husbands allowed us to go to England.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, that was weird.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: No, yeah, no.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: Quick, we're gonna have a lot of side stories on this.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, when we were out at a pub and we were sharing, like, oh no, we're best friends and we're out traveling, and yes, we like both have long-term partners and all that.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: Literally, the question was how they were okay with you leaving, and they said they were to I think he said, Oh, like they just let you two come to London.
46:30
SPEAKER_00: Like allowed us.
46:31
SPEAKER_00: So it's like, well, I'm gonna go.
46:33
SPEAKER_01: No, that's what they said.
46:33
SPEAKER_01: He said, he said, how how did they allow you to just go to London on your own?
46:39
SPEAKER_01: And I think I was like, Well, I bought a plane ticket.
46:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, I have a full-time job and I paid for this myself.
46:44
SPEAKER_01: And then I went to my husband and I was like, and then I said, Hey Robbie, I'm going to London.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: We are going to London.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, that was very an awkward situation.
46:51
SPEAKER_01: But we besides that, maybe he more meant like, who let you out of your cage?
46:56
SPEAKER_01: Because Elizabeth was like, Well, I have I have boyfriend.
47:02
SPEAKER_00: I have boyfriend Robbie who lets me do basically whatever I want on a global scale.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: That's what I told him.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: He loved it.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's when we got removed from the pub.
47:15
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm just kidding, we didn't.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: Politely asked to leave.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: Anyway.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, so where we're at, sorry, I keep digressing.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: So Richard, who's no longer Richard.
47:24
SPEAKER_01: Who is now Perkin and has said he is Perkin.
47:27
SPEAKER_01: Perkin Warbeck.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: He's also like at banquets, he's celebrating things with them.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: Like, kind of how he was at the court in Scotland.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: I think he was kind of like on show.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: Like it was almost like an amusement, like, this is the guy.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: And you have to remember, again, he's 23.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't probably good looking.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: He's probably decent looking.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: He probably doesn't know that much about the world.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: He's like, hey, I'm back in good standing, cool.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, sorry about that party with this imposter thing.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: But tell us who who is Perkin Warbeck?
47:56
SPEAKER_01: Who is this guy?
47:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, I was going to say, so what he does confess is kind of his whole actual life story.
48:01
SPEAKER_00: And we want to preface this with there are still some people that believe like he's Richard, right?
48:08
SPEAKER_00: They think maybe he just kind of came up with this story to kind of get himself out of any rebellious situation.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe he wasn't there to overthrow the throne.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: So to get out of it easy, he was like, you know what?
48:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm an imposter.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: Here's my actual backstory.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: But checking in records and everything he said, it seems as if his story was actually pretty true.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: Probably.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: Like they looked at his family tree and stuff, and we're like, okay, everything checks out.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Like it's not like you made up people and lands, like everything.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: His confession was a pretty legitimate story.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: So what he had actually said about himself.
48:40
SPEAKER_00: Hi, my name is Perkin Warbeck, and uh I'm an imposter.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: And so he said his actual early life, his parents were Catherine Deforo and John Osbeck.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: And John was a um Flemish merchant who's from modern-day Belgium.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: And at about age 10, uh he like hit him and his wife took uh young Perkin to Antwerp where he learned Dutch.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: So he was already he already knew Flemish, he's learning Dutch, and then he had like a few different tutors and things throughout the years in in um Europe, but eventually he comes across this English merchant named John Stru, who is like a cloth salesman, like he trades cloth.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: So he learns all about like the cloth trade and the silk trade, um, and he goes eventually to Ireland where he's still kind of uh engaged in um his silk trade, and that's when he originally gets there in 1490, when he's about 17 years old, and that's when he kind of comes forward because he's learning English at that time, he's learning all about the customs, and apparently, because we mentioned this earlier, because he's well dressed, he's wearing all the silk, people immediately assume, like, oh you you must be royal.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: So he kind of phrased it as like people came to me, like because I had this specific resemblance, because I was working in silks, and like his parents weren't poor, they were merchant class.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes, Megan.
50:01
SPEAKER_00: Sounds like the maid in Manhattan.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: It does.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, she's like, I was just I was just trying on her outfits in her Park Avenue suite, and then you saw me, and that's how you Oh, you just assumed because I had clothes.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm now at the end of the day.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: Which he would have looked at me if I was in rags on the street.
50:18
SPEAKER_01: I just now understand where he's coming from.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: So he's J Lock.
50:22
SPEAKER_00: He's J Loy.
50:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: And uh and so that's that was his that was basically his story.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: Was I was just a certain way where everyone kind of said, these Yorkists came to me and said, We would love it if you would kind of accept your position in the house of York.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: Like you, you might be the lost prince, you know, very again, Anastasia-like, kind of like you could be the person we've been looking for.
50:45
SPEAKER_01: Um into that person.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, if there's just a little bit of hope, they're gonna take it a long way.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: So they convinced him to pose as Richard Duke of York from that point.
50:56
SPEAKER_00: So again, around age seven, all comes together.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: He's of that same age, he looks very similar.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: Everyone starts to say, Hey, you're him, and I think he starts to believe it himself.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: Whether or not it's true, we're not a hundred percent sure.
51:08
SPEAKER_00: But that's the narrative that he gave once he was all cozy at court because he's like, Oh, guess my funny background.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you my story actually.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:17
SPEAKER_01: So again, he was at the court for eight months, which is a pretty significant time.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: And he's getting antsy.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: He misses his wife, he misses his wife, and while he is living in decent living conditions, he's still technically prisoner.
51:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's like on house arrest.
51:33
SPEAKER_01: Like he doesn't uh to a certain extent, he doesn't want to be there.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: So he tries to escape.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: They capture him, they bring him back, and they bring him back to the back to the Tower of London.
51:47
SPEAKER_01: So he's he's now in prison with someone that I'm going to water drop his name, but I there this person in himself is his own episode.
51:57
SPEAKER_00: We could do a whole nother episode.
51:59
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not gonna go into super detail.
52:01
SPEAKER_01: I really could go down like a whole rabbit hole in this guy.
52:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna drop it, name drop Edward Plantagenet, the Duke of Warwick.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
52:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, I will just say that he's the younger brother of Margaret Pohl, and he's been in the Tower of London for a very long time.
52:16
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna say Okay.
52:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh they tried to escape together.
52:20
SPEAKER_01: We don't quite know how much of it was like Richard forcing him to leave with him.
52:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, was it other people outside of the tower who was trying to like rebel again and try and get them both out?
52:32
SPEAKER_01: But right.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: Some people assumed it was like a whole plot that didn't even involve them so much.
52:36
SPEAKER_00: It was more like, hey, you guys are the ones that we gotta get out.
52:38
SPEAKER_00: So maybe they were just kind of following orders from other people outside.
52:42
SPEAKER_01: And they were kind of in there for similar reasons.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: Warwick was a risk to taking over the throne, but he was very young.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: He's been in there since he was 10 years old.
52:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:51
SPEAKER_01: But he was at like you could pretty much figure out that he is also in line to the throne.
52:56
SPEAKER_01: And this just makes me think how like how weak is Henry the Seventh.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: Whoever is at risk of and this is like Tudor Noble, like Henry the Noble.
53:05
SPEAKER_01: Think of Elizabeth and Mary did this.
53:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Elizabeth I killed Mary Queen of Scots because of this exact same reason.
53:11
SPEAKER_00: She's like Jane Gray.
53:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you are a potential threat to my reign.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter if you're if you're young, if you're powerless, if you're whatever people like you, you know, even if you're just like, hey, I'm gonna live in the countryside and not have anything to do with court, you're probably gonna get back to Tower of London and killed.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, so they try to escape again.
53:33
SPEAKER_01: So he this is kind of like a redundant situation.
53:35
SPEAKER_01: He's he keeps trying to escape.
53:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
53:37
SPEAKER_01: They catch him.
53:38
SPEAKER_01: Shocking.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: Um that that's that was actually a really interesting part of the Tower of London of who actually has ever escaped from the tower, like the attempts and then the success.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: But we've had a couple stories of like failed attempts to escape.
53:53
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty locked down.
53:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't I look now that I've been there, I don't know how you escape.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean again, aside from sneaking out with a laundry and everything, yeah.
54:04
SPEAKER_00: There's a mow, it's a very secure place.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess they did add to it over time, so it's not like what we saw is what exactly was there in the 16th century.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, or I guess this point it's 15th.
54:15
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, uh it's um I love that we were there.
54:18
SPEAKER_01: You can kind of visualize it all a little bit better, right?
54:20
SPEAKER_01: It was kind of cool.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: Love it.
54:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, so at this point now, because they have escaped or tried to escape again, right?
54:29
SPEAKER_01: They are now sentenced to death.
54:32
SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna just stop with the they because Warwick is his own situation.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:36
SPEAKER_01: But Perkin is sentenced to death.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: And just like to be clear, his sentence isn't because of the whole imposter situation, right?
54:45
SPEAKER_01: His set he's being sentenced to death because he tried to escape prison.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: When they're like, you you just need to sit here and be good.
54:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like they didn't even really mention, like, oh, you were trying to, you know, take down the king and there's treason.
54:59
SPEAKER_00: That could have been high treason.
55:00
SPEAKER_00: High treason.
55:01
SPEAKER_00: It's more like, hey, we try to give you a good life and a second chance, and you escape twice.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: Just keep running away.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: Jail bait?
55:09
SPEAKER_01: He's like a scrappy little dog who keeps running away and you gotta put a bear out.
55:14
SPEAKER_00: Damn, Megan.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: Don't go near my dog.
55:17
SPEAKER_00: I would never.
55:19
SPEAKER_00: But maybe.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so uh finally we come to November 23rd, 1499.
55:28
SPEAKER_00: Um Perkin is 25 years old, very young still.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: He's young.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: Very young.
55:33
SPEAKER_00: Again, and it had the cards fallen different, had a rebellion worked, had he rallied more support, maybe history would have been entirely different.
55:40
SPEAKER_00: Maybe he would have claimed the throne.
55:42
SPEAKER_00: Maybe to this day when we visited London, we would have seen his memorial as like King Richard IV of of England.
55:48
SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
55:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, but the way it all shook out, you know, wasn't in his favor.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: He's only 25 years old.
55:55
SPEAKER_00: And I was surprised by this, but he was he was hanged at Tyburn.
55:59
SPEAKER_01: And I I was thinking about this.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: Why?
56:03
SPEAKER_01: In the end, he was a peasant, so he didn't deserve a more noble beheading.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: Then we've always said this.
56:10
SPEAKER_01: The nobles were beheaded at Tower Hill.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: So wild to me.
56:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and if you were not noble or really of anyone of importance, yes.
56:20
SPEAKER_01: I have a question.
56:21
SPEAKER_00: So now that I've been there and I know it and I know the landscape, so Tower Green is in inside the walls.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: So Tower Green is for royals.
56:30
SPEAKER_01: There was only what 10 people who've actually been executed inside the Tower of London.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: Was it because they were royal?
56:37
SPEAKER_01: Not all of them were royal, but most of them, yes.
56:40
SPEAKER_01: Like high ranking.
56:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
56:41
SPEAKER_01: It was it was Margaret Poole.
56:44
SPEAKER_01: They were private.
56:44
SPEAKER_01: It was Catherine Howard.
56:45
SPEAKER_01: It was Anne Boleyn.
56:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
56:47
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
56:48
SPEAKER_00: And then Tower Hill, which is outside, it's literally in the middle of traffic right now.
56:53
SPEAKER_01: Oh, right now.
56:53
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of crazy.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I obviously it wasn't back then, but I'm saying it's I didn't realize how far removed Tower Hill was from the tower.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: Right, no.
57:01
SPEAKER_00: So far away.
57:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited that now you've seen it too.
57:03
SPEAKER_01: Because remember I was saying that too.
57:05
SPEAKER_00: Like you would have had a pick a bit of a walk.
57:08
SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit of a walk.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: And obviously, there's not, you know, big streets and you know giant buildings around it like an playground.
57:15
SPEAKER_00: That is creepy.
57:15
SPEAKER_00: There's a playground right next to Tower Hill.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:18
SPEAKER_00: And you love it.
57:19
SPEAKER_00: But so so they take them all the way there.
57:21
SPEAKER_00: And those were for the lesser known nobles, I guess.
57:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:25
SPEAKER_00: But they were public executions like Thomas More.
57:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:27
SPEAKER_01: Thomas More, Bishop Fisher, Duke of Buckingham.
57:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
57:32
SPEAKER_00: And then Tyburn is for peasants.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: Tyburn.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: So I have a very interesting book about Tyburn.
57:40
SPEAKER_01: And so I was kind of reading up on it.
57:42
SPEAKER_01: And it there were hundreds, probably thousands.
57:48
SPEAKER_01: Actually, I don't know the exact number, but I could I could get it for you.
57:52
SPEAKER_01: Of all the executions at Tyburn.
57:55
SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, that was for the peasants, that was for petty theft, that was for murder, that was for stealing shit.
58:02
SPEAKER_01: That was just for all the dirt bags that they did one in London.
58:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, pretending like you were a king.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: And it was primarily hangings, but they also did drawn and quarterings there.
58:12
SPEAKER_01: They really didn't do a lot of beheadings.
58:14
SPEAKER_01: It was mostly just the quig done one and out of here.
58:17
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
58:18
SPEAKER_01: They actually had a giant pit underneath the scaffolds that they would just drop the bodies into because it was such a common thing.
58:25
SPEAKER_01: And just Did you go to Tyburn?
58:28
SPEAKER_01: Not a big thing.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: I've never never seen it.
58:30
SPEAKER_01: Only because I've seen pictures of it and it really there's nothing there.
58:35
SPEAKER_01: It's like a populated city-like area.
58:37
SPEAKER_01: It's an intersection at this point.
58:39
SPEAKER_01: It's a McDonald's.
58:40
SPEAKER_01: There is in the in the concrete, there is like a memorial that says here was like the the tree of Tyburn of whatever.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: This is like in the main flap of the book.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: Like they they have a picture of it.
58:54
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and in the in the book too, they show like modern day versus what it drawings of what it looked like before.
59:00
SPEAKER_01: But it is just not a lot to look at right now.
59:02
SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
59:03
SPEAKER_01: So, but yeah, that's where the lesser known people went.
59:07
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
59:08
SPEAKER_01: Like I would have been at Tower Hill and you would have probably had been taken to Tyburn.
59:14
SPEAKER_00: No, I don't think so.
59:15
SPEAKER_00: I would have obviously been at Tower Green, excuse me.
59:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
59:19
SPEAKER_01: Actually, probably you were nobility.
59:21
SPEAKER_01: Actually, your your ancestors.
59:24
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, when we were so we'll talk about this on another episode because we don't want to harp on it too much, but we went to Heaver Castle, which is again like like birthplace, like a childhood home of Anne Boleyn.
59:37
SPEAKER_00: And it was so crazy being there because they had this big, um, I guess it was like a scroll.
59:43
SPEAKER_00: It was like old paper, you know, and it's a big family tree, like the family lineage that goes down maybe like seven generations, and I could see my family like basically the generation before they left to Virginia, like that's where it cut off.
59:59
SPEAKER_00: But it was so cool to see it, and I took a little video of like where it goes, and I was just like, this feels weird being in this house, seeing this thing.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: Right, so your actual blood was so for those who might be newcomers, so Elizabeth is proven blood related to Anne Boleyn, and I'm proven blood related to Thomas More.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_01: So I guess in hindsight, yes, your ancestor was beheaded at Tower Green, and mine was beheaded at Tower Hill, but in the end, they were both beheaded.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: So, how great were we?
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: One of us can drink with a stem on her wine glass, and one of us can't.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
1:00:33
SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of risks of spilling things.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: You're right.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: No, we did a good job.
1:00:37
SPEAKER_00: I was nervous.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: Everything's on fire.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_00: The reason why the Anne Bolin duck is back there is because she kept falling up here.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_00: We have our King Henry VIII little duck.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_00: Here he is.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: Uh it's bad radio for those of you just listening to the pod.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_00: But our little King Henry the Eighth duck uh kept killing her.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_01: Seriously, kept falling her.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_01: One's broken, one's not.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_01: But I don't want to like really get rid of the broken one.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_01: I kind of like her.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like it.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_00: I think it's uh very symbolic.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: She keeps losing her little head.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: It's weird.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, all that said, yes, Perkin Warbeck claimed himself as a as an imposter.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: He again confessed right before he was hanged.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_01: Um and that's all I'm gonna have to say about that.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_01: Just looking at my notes.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_01: And that's all I know.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a it's like kind of this weird story though, right?
1:01:32
SPEAKER_01: Like, imagine if there were the gossip columns back then, they would have been like, this Justin, Richard the F Whatever.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_01: Was it called Fourth?
1:01:42
SPEAKER_01: I guess he would have yeah, Richard King Richard the Fourth is alive.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, imagine.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_01: I know.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_01: But he wasn't ever corny, he wouldn't have been king at one point, but still.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_00: And what I think about in this whole story too is like it's not like that much time has passed since the disappearance of the young boys to him re-emerging as I'm the king.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_00: Because think about that.
1:02:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean ten years?
1:02:06
SPEAKER_00: No, not even because he disappeared when he was nine, and he started him up as when he was 19.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_00: No, like 16, 17.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_00: So this is not a lot of time.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, think about that in the context of your life.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: It's like only what six years go by.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_00: Like, figure it out.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_00: Seven years go by.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_00: So people are already kind of still upset that the princes left or dis you know have disappeared.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: So I know, quote unquote left.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_00: And so they're kind of I think grasping at straws, looking for some sort of closure.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: So when you see that this man who looks very much like that family and is of the right age, come forward and say, Hey, I'm him, you're like, Yeah, you are.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, like I think you're just like you're kind of clinging to that a bit.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_00: You want some hope.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_00: So I that's one thing I think of when I think of the story.
1:02:51
SPEAKER_00: It's not like 50 years had passed, and they're like, Oh, look at this descendant.
1:02:55
SPEAKER_01: Here's the thing we didn't really talk about yet.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh, there's more.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_01: But wait, Elizabeth of York.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_01: Yes, she is the wife of King Henry the Seventh and the brother of Richard and Edward.
1:03:08
SPEAKER_01: The princess is not a brother.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_01: The sister of Richard and Edward, they were her younger brothers.
1:03:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't she have recognized him?
1:03:19
SPEAKER_00: That is kind of weird because we didn't read much about it, but when we were watching like our different YouTube videos for you know, for content, um, we we were surprised that they talked about the sister because we were like, she's the one that should know.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_00: How come she doesn't really have a huge say in this?
1:03:35
SPEAKER_01: Or at least that we're not that much to your point, not that much time has passed.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_01: But also, like so again, going back to Philippe Gregory, like that what that was the whole point, is like her trying to quiz him and be like, Don't you remember this at Christmas?
1:03:53
SPEAKER_01: And kind of setting him up and being like, Nope, that actually never happened.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_01: And again, like the whole Anastasia thing, like really trying to like test it and be like, There's gotta be something that only my brother would know.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_01: And like, whether that happened or it didn't, so that's where it kind of takes the fictional route.
1:04:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, was it that in her heart that she knew it was her brother, but she had to like bend at knee to her husband, the king, who was like, Nope, we're executing him because I can't have this rival.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_01: Or was she like, This guy is an imposter, like, this isn't him?
1:04:24
SPEAKER_00: It's hard to say, too.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_00: And I think even like, I mean, if you've ever like heard the podcast serial, or like, you know, her different things about just like how your memory works when you're young.
1:04:35
SPEAKER_00: It's like if they're like, Hey, what did you do on this specific day at this time?
1:04:38
SPEAKER_00: Like, you may or may not remember that day.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_00: If something significant happened, you probably remembered it more than others.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's the same thing with childhood, like you remember certain things so vividly from childhood.
1:04:48
SPEAKER_00: Like, I could I had a lot of cousins growing up, and I could like bring my cousins in and be like, remember we played this game and it we went to this part of the yard and we had these things, and three of them would be like, Oh my gosh, yeah, that was so fun, and like so different.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_00: And others could be like, That never happened, yeah.
1:05:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like you know it is crazy the things that we remember for whatever reason, uh you know, as more important than the other, and so yeah, but she never really stepped in to say much about this, or if she did, she wasn't super vocal.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_01: So you tell us.
1:05:16
SPEAKER_01: You tell us do you think that he actually was the lost prince of the tower, or is he just a peasant imposter?
1:05:24
SPEAKER_00: I think he was a peasant imposter, but yeah, that's bold, and he did a pretty good job.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_00: I think he did a great job, and again, he was very young, so it's not like you can blame the guy.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, you got a shot.
1:05:36
SPEAKER_00: What do I have to lose?
1:05:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you got a shot some fame and potentially a throne, like go for it, sure.
1:05:42
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I I don't think that he was for real, especially because the detailed background he did tell about his true self lines up with pretty much everything else.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_00: It's not like he was just like, Yeah, I'm this guy from this land and it doesn't make sense.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_00: Everything kind of checked out.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I I do think he was an imposter myself.
1:06:01
SPEAKER_00: It would be a nice idea if he was actually Richard, but I think they were murdered.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_01: So let's go find his skeleton and do DNA on that.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_01: We do the DNA.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_01: Like we're we, you and I.
1:06:12
SPEAKER_01: We go back to England.
1:06:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, Elizabeth, any final words?
1:06:17
SPEAKER_00: Not today.