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An Abel-inspired soul-stirring spiritual journey · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:17
  Welcome to another edition of Trevor Loud Reports on America Out Loud.
• 0:22
  Today we've got a very special guest, um, Victor Jessip of the New America Initiative.
• 0:28
  Now, Victor is Australian from Melbourne, but he's lived in this country, I don't know, half his life or a third of his life, or something off and on.
• 0:38
  He's very deeply invested in America, um, but very deeply invested in his faith and his and freedom, you know.
• 0:50
  He's been uh an active anti-communist for many years, a journalist working on the international stage, and very well informed, very well connected.
• 1:00
  And I wanted to talk to Victor today a bit about the international scene in America and America's role, but his Christian vision and the role of America as a providential nation, because I I think we're in a spiritual battle, but not many people articulate it that way and put it into practical terms, as I have heard Victor put it into practical terms.
• 1:29
  Um so first of all, welcome, Victor.
• 1:32
  Thanks for thanks for coming on.
• 1:34
  Ah, Trevor, it's always great to be talking with you.
• 1:38
  Thank you.
• 1:39
  Well, we first met at CPAC some years ago, didn't we?
• 1:42
  And I think you picked me up because of my accent.
• 1:45
  It was a little bit a little bit similar to yours, but we've become friends since then.
• 1:50
  And and uh I say you have you have contributed very very strongly to both my political and spiritual development, Victor.
• 2:00
  So I'll I'll thank you for that right here and right here and now.
• 2:05
  Well, thank you.
• 2:07
  That's um that's meaningful, Trevor, to be honest.
• 2:11
  Thank you.
• 2:13
  Most welcome.
• 2:14
  So Victor, tell us a little bit about you know how you got you were brought up I think that the son of a Baptist minister, is that correct?
• 2:26
  And in Melbourne.
• 2:28
  Um yes, I was born and raised in Melbourne uh to uh or into a I mean when I look back really a beautiful Christian family.
• 2:41
  Uh my mother was the youngest of 10 children, my father was an only son.
• 2:47
  My mum's uh mother and father had passed away before I was born.
• 2:53
  Uh, but I remember vividly uh my granddad who passed away a little young, but especially my grandma, she lived to be 99 years of age, her sister made it to 103, and uh her son, my father, and uh my mom as well were such they they weren't devout Christians in the sense of you know their religiosity, they lived their faith literally every day and for their entire lives.
• 3:29
  So I was I was blessed to have been um raised in that kind of environment.
• 3:35
  So that's the background.
• 3:37
  My dad was never a pastor.
• 3:39
  Oh, I this is what he was, sorry, but okay.
• 3:41
  Yeah, no, he was he was like the church secretary.
• 3:45
  He was this, he was that my brother, uh, I'm the oldest of four boys.
• 3:50
  My younger brother, second in the fourth, became a Baptist minister.
• 3:55
  So that's what I'm getting advice.
• 3:59
  Yeah.
• 4:00
  So you were brought up in a pretty conventional Christian background in Melbourne.
• 4:06
  You become a bit of a quite a prominent sportsman in cricket and Australian rules and that sort of thing.
• 4:13
  But uh is it fair to say you always felt something was missing spiritually?
• 4:18
  You needed a bit more.
• 4:20
  Oh, good point, Trevor.
• 4:22
  Yeah, my my uh my youth, my childhood and youth and young adulthood was very much involved in sport, as you've indicated.
• 4:34
  And uh I the way I would put it, uh, you know, when I reached my teenage years, I don't know where this nature disposition came from, but I began to experience what I saw as a disconnect between um religious faith and religious and spiritual practice, and it became it led to a period of of um, I wouldn't say disillusionment so much as it was really serious reflection on really what is religion all about, what's its purpose?
• 5:21
  And um yeah, so yeah, through my teenage years in particular, um you could in a sense you could say my my eyes or my soul opened to um the contradictions that I was unable to uh satisfy.
• 5:39
  So when you say contradictions, are you talking about the faith people profess and their actions, or what what are you referring to there?
• 5:49
  Yeah, good question.
• 5:51
  You know, there's one example.
• 5:52
  I'll just share this.
• 5:55
  Hopefully, it addresses that question.
• 5:57
  I recall uh going to church, you know, lovely little Baptist church community in the suburb of Reservoir, northern suburb of Melbourne, and um, oh heck, we we'd have Sunday school in the morning, we'd have church, um boys' brigade or whatever on Friday night.
• 6:16
  Um, and there was a there are a few you know teenagers in the congregation, and one of them in particular, my parents would sort of um suggest that um you know he that this boy was really uh a good Christian.
• 6:34
  Uh and there was some question as to whether I still qualified uh under that definition because of some of my uh attitude.
• 6:44
  And so this boy was was held up to me as being sort of the model to which I should be um, you know, uh directing my my consciousness or whatever.
• 6:57
  Well, I I had an experience once where we did not go to the same secondary school, but I I had an experience once where we were outside of church in a social setting, and um and oh and I and I observed the behavior and the language of this guy outside of the church setting.
• 7:00
  Where we did not go to the same secondary school, but I I had an experience once where we were outside of church in a social setting, and um, and oh and I and I observed the behavior and the language of this guy outside of the church setting, and the bottom line is I thought you flipping hypocrite.
• 7:23
  And the bottom line is I thought you flipping hypocrite, and it
• 7:29
  And it like it really hit me.
• 7:32
  It's like, oh, you're this one person on the weekend or on Sunday, and you're another person in public.
• 7:41
  Well, I think I'd rather be honest enough to be the same person on Sunday that's you know, obviously ticking people off because I'm not checking all the religious boxes, but when I go out, I I'm at least trying to be a person that lives conscientiously according to the you know certain fundamental principles.
• 8:03
  So I guess that's that example sort of struck me, and and I've I have to say I I've I believe and uh I have witnessed that phenomena over the decades.
• 8:19
  Is it fair to say that if you profess a certain faith, but you behave in a manner contrary to that faith, your faith is probably fake.
• 8:30
  Is that is it fair to say is the faith fake?
• 8:37
  Well, if you no, no, if you profess if you profess a certain faith or certain set of beliefs, but your your behavior is completely contrary to it.
• 8:49
  Does that mean your faith, your professed faith is really you you are faking it?
• 8:56
  Um I think I would just say you're a hypocrite.
• 9:02
  Right.
• 9:03
  So you're living at variance to what you profess.
• 9:05
  Yeah, yeah, you're adjusting, you're adjusting your behavior according to circumstance rather than having your behavior informed in such a manner that it remains with you in all circumstances.
• 9:22
  Right.
• 9:23
  And this is I think it's the key thing.
• 9:25
  If how do you tell if someone is faith is a real believer or not?
• 9:32
  Their faith, their behavior should be consistent regardless of who they're with or when that where they're with.
• 9:38
  Is that is that fair?
• 9:40
  Yeah, it's fair.
• 9:41
  And I also I I think we also, and I personally uh we need to be honest enough to to acknowledge that uh none of us are perfect in this.
• 9:54
  Uh we we all have uh we have we all I suspect have moments where on reflection we've we've probably disappointed um ourselves, and uh if there's anyone greater than ourselves watching, uh you know been a disappointment.
• 10:11
  So we're all striving uh for something which uh in our imperfection we perhaps don't accomplish, but nevertheless, I think some people are closer to the mark than others.
• 10:27
  Closer to the mark and and more consistent.
• 10:30
  Jordan Peterson made an interesting comment.
• 10:32
  He said that the definition of sin is missing the mark.
• 10:38
  It's it's it's missing the mark.
• 10:41
  You you we are aiming for truth and perfection, but you miss the mark, and that is where the sin comes in.
• 10:51
  Yeah, that's that is true.
• 10:53
  Trevor, also um my suggestion is that the you you might be hitting the mark, but what if the mark itself isn't really correct?
• 11:14
  What if it's a you know, that's another issue altogether?
• 11:19
  Well, you know, the Iranian mullahs would think that they're hitting the mark, wouldn't they?
• 11:24
  Precisely.
• 11:26
  And there's there's hundreds of denominations of Christianity divided by concepts that you could call marks to which hundreds of different congregations are setting their intention on exactly, and they can't all be right, can they?
• 11:58
  No, but that's this is a this is an important point, Trevor, especially we maybe we'll touch on this a little bit later when we talk about you know providence and and uh the role of Christianity or the role of faith.
• 12:11
  Um you know, it really it is important.
• 12:15
  Uh there are people who deep uh deeply committed Marxists.
• 12:23
  Their mark is to, or their goal is to uh fulfill the promise of that which they have embraced and and they sacrifice their life uh for it, and it and they and from my point of view, they are utterly and profoundly misguided.
• 12:43
  They are, but you at least got to give them a little bit of credit for integrity, don't you?
• 12:47
  That they do fight for what they believe in, and that's something whereas opposed to some people who who may be more connected to the right ideas but don't really fight for them, don't really live them.
• 13:03
  Yeah, you could make an argument that there's uh yeah that there are people who have who grant more uh integrity to the wrong cause than those than people who grow who uh offer uh a compromised commitment to the right cause.
• 13:25
  Yeah, yeah, we see that a lot, I think.
• 13:28
  So now I think you you your spiritual views from what I gather have evolved evolved a lot.
• 13:37
  What why what you sort of went beyond, I think the can Christianity you were brought up in.
• 13:47
  How do you think your views have evolved?
• 13:50
  Where do you and and how's that affected your politics, for instance?
• 13:54
  How have your views evolved from those teenage Christian years through the years to where you are now?
• 14:00
  Through the years to where you are now.
• 14:04
  Oh goodness.
• 14:04
  Oh goodness.
• 14:05
  Uh well, let me try to paint a uh draw a picture here and um see if this uh resonates with you, Trevor.
• 14:07
  Well, let me try to paint a draw a picture here and um see if this uh resonates with you, Trevor.
• 14:17
  I guess the um it's a little bit like the the uh the the admonition for uh to to travel, you know, leave your home, leave your the comforts of your town, your culture, your community, and visit the world, go out into the world, and uh in so doing, and I've been blessed with an opportunity to do that uh in different times, and you run the risk, of course, when you leave the comfort and security of your own culture, society, uh, that you discover, oh my goodness, um there is evil, but there is also great virtue being expressed in very different ways in very different places, and I and I got to thinking about okay, well, is there a different God?
• 14:17
  I guess the um it's a little bit like the the the uh the the admonition for uh to to travel, you know, leave your home, leave
• 15:24
  Is there a different creator?
• 15:25
  Is there a different uh source?
• 15:28
  Uh, you know, overseeing all these different expressions of humanity, yeah.
• 15:35
  I don't think so.
• 15:37
  We have one creator, one source, one uh beginning point from which we have all emerged, and if that's true, then somehow that creator, that source, must be involved in all of these various cultures communities, uh, in in all these myriad different ways.
• 16:13
  How do I reconcile that?
• 16:16
  Um, and that's where I began to think more in terms of our creator and the providence connected to the creative process.
• 16:33
  In other words, how can I put it?
• 16:36
  We as created beings did not determine our purpose, our purpose was determined prior to our existence by the creator of us.
• 16:53
  So one of the most important questions for me for decades has been one which asked the question in what manner or how do I uh fulfill the highest and greatest value in the life or with the life that I've been given.
• 17:18
  Well, the value of anything that's created in this thinking is when it fulfills the purpose for which it was created, but if we're ignorant of that purpose or only partially aware of it, we will never fulfill our highest potential, and so that's where my spiritual journey began to take me into a bigger, you know, a different space.
• 17:52
  That's a very interesting, you know.
• 17:53
  Like if you create a tool, and the tool, if you create a sword, and the sword doesn't cut wood, it's useless, isn't it?
• 18:00
  So if we are tools of the creator, we are we are creations of the creator, we are he created us to fulfill his purpose, so our life should really be focused around finding out what that purpose is and as best we can and working all the time to fulfill it.
• 18:23
  Is that correct?
• 18:24
  Yeah, I mean, and and the wonderful uh aspect of this is that every single one of us is as unique as our fingerprint, and so therefore every single one of us is a non-duplicable irreplaceable, never to be again, and for the first time existing now uh expression of our creator, and therefore imbued with a unique uh uh set of um characteristics, whatever that when fully realized contribute something absolutely beautiful to the grand mosaic of human history.
• 19:19
  See, this this kind of thing is what has influenced me, Victor.
• 19:23
  That that kind of statement has made me think much more deeply about my purpose and how I align my purpose with God's purpose.
• 19:32
  You know, it's not enough to me just to go along and listen, sing some hymns and listen to certain homilies and whatever, and just sort of try and live a good life without killing and murdering people, you know, it's a whole bunch more to determine what is your purpose, and as you're you know, the talents talk this everybody has been given talents.
• 19:55
  Why?
• 19:56
  Because everybody has a role and the purpose, and is that right?
• 20:01
  Like, and and can you define the word providence?
• 20:05
  Because I think you know, you mentioned that, and and I want you to give your definition of providence because people think about it in different ways, because I think it all links up here.
• 20:15
  Yeah, uh, okay, uh, providence and and I'm really sharing, as you know very well, uh Trevor, uh, thoughts that uh I've developed very much with my uh colleague and co-founder of New America Initiative, Thomas Cromwell.
• 20:33
  Who I want to introduce, by the way.
• 20:35
  But yes.
• 20:36
  Yeah, I I suspect he he may be following me at some point uh on this program, but uh no, from our perspective, and I say our now because it's something we've we've oh by goodness, we've we've talked about this a lot and and contemplated this a lot.
• 20:53
  Providence from our from our point of view can be seen as the purpose of heaven, the purpose of God, the purpose of our creator, seeking its fulfillment throughout time, embedded within human history.
• 21:00
  Purpose of heaven, the purpose of God, the purpose of our creator, seeking its fulfillment throughout time, embedded within human history.
• 21:16
  There is this thread of providential intent seeking its fulfillment.
• 21:16
  There is this thread of providential intent seeking its fulfillment, and it's a very as as Thomas uh will.
• 21:25
  And it's a very as as Thomas uh will say different times, providence actually precedes our existence.
• 21:37
  It's the purpose that precedes our presence, and it is also transcendent, it both precedes and transcends every division that human history has created.
• 21:57
  In other words, beyond every think of anything and everything that we could divide ourselves by, you know, whether it's nationality, ethnicity, culture, religion, anything, all of those divisions are subordinate to reside under the overarching providence in which we are all participants, so that can be both and an amazing awareness and a profoundly challenging and humbling recognition.
• 22:44
  So we are put on this earth to fulfill a purpose, and to the degree we align ourselves with that, uh, is the degree that God that God's providence and I don't like to think of it as just purely a reward system, you do good and you get good.
• 23:08
  But um, there have been many miracles and many weird coincidences that have happened in human history as humanity has progressed forward towards more freedom and more prosperity.
• 23:21
  Things have happened that shouldn't have happened, you know, miracles or battles that were won that shouldn't have been bar won, or revolutions that started that never should have succeeded.
• 23:32
  So is it is it fair to say that if if people are on tune with God's plan that things happen that help help progress along?
• 23:44
  Is that is it right?
• 23:48
  You know, Trevor, I you know, perhaps it's it would be helpful just to grant some context to this process, and the context as I or in this case, uh, my friends and I, Thomas and I, uh, see it.
• 24:04
  The original purpose, the the intention of God when he gave birth to us, was that purpose was a scalable development uh process that would grow from the seeds of literally one family through historical time to eventually embrace what we have now is what eight or nine billion people inhabiting our planet, and that original plan and intention was actually corrupted at the beginning of human history, and that history then, rather than becoming a naturally unfolding expression of God's presence in all of the various dimensions and and uh progress of life, it was corrupted, and from God's point of view, human history then becomes a process of both uh a natural the genies out of the bottle, we're created, we're multiplying, we're growing, communities, nations, and so on, but it's also a process of seeking to restore and reclaim the innocence with which we were originally created, but which we as human beings soiled through our faithlessness and disobedience to God, and so history has these dual elements of it's like it's like what you give birth to a child, and you watch the child and those of us in the audience, those of your audience who are parents.
• 26:11
  Um, you know, when you've got a six, twelve-month, eighteen-month-old baby in your arms, you have complete control and dominion over that child.
• 26:23
  But by the time that child's eighteen or twenty years of age, can we can we truly say as a parent that we we retain that complete dominion over the child we gave birth to 18 years previously?
• 26:39
  I don't think so.
• 26:40
  No, actually, at a certain point, that child will assume and must assume responsibility for what they do with their life, and you know that that is a metaphor for me of the relationship that God has with us as his children at a certain point.
• 27:05
  We we not at a certain point, we are endowed with at our birth with a portion of responsibility that is absolutely personal and can be fulfilled by nobody other than us, including God.
• 27:23
  Yeah, that's a key one.
• 27:25
  Like we have to call a break here, Jess uh Victor.
• 27:32
  Then get into the the role of America.
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• 29:50
  Welcome back to America Out Loud.
• 29:52
  You're here with Trevor Loudon and Victor Jesson.
• 29:55
  So we're talking matters spiritual here and providential.
• 29:58
  And Victor, you before the break, you just drew an element an analogy between our relationship with God and say our relationship with a child.
• 30:07
  That we nurture that child, we have a symbiotic relationship with that child.
• 30:12
  But as the child gets older, it starts to develop its own will, and that may be used for good or for bad.
• 30:22
  And so that is where we are with God.
• 30:24
  I think we can uh as we've been set free and and uh we have that that choice, some of us use this well, and some of us use it well, and some of us don't, and all of us pretty much have a blend of um good poor and good choices, but is it you know, like if if if we're in accordance with God's will, God's will, we are fulfilling the providence.
• 30:48
  We are but if we get out of sync with God, we start to become counterproductive.
• 30:56
  Uh just in as in a family, is that is that fair to say?
• 31:00
  Yeah, Trevor, I I would I was just contemplating this as you were speaking.
• 31:05
  Um let me let me use this example.
• 31:11
  Yeah, you know, I I obviously associate and and with many, many uh Christians, people men and women of faith from all different backgrounds, and there is there is a common refrain in certain uh realms of Christendom where you will hear no matter what's going on around you, no matter how crazy the world seems, no matter how much how much evil there seems to be.
• 31:37
  Don't worry, God is in charge.
• 31:42
  God has got it, he's in charge.
• 31:47
  Actually, no.
• 31:56
  In charge to the extent that they can determine and control the behavior of their child, and what like I believe, and this is a real issue for many people, that has I mean, it's it's to me unimaginable the the power, the greatness of a God, a creator who could create this universe, the cosmos.
• 32:34
  Are you kidding?
• 32:36
  It's beyond almost beyond comprehension, it is so incredible.
• 32:42
  And so we have this no oh goodness, a god that can do that must have so much power.
• 32:49
  Well, maybe, but maybe also that that God is the God of principle and the principles through which and by which God created us.
• 33:05
  Primary among those principles is that we were created and endowed with freedom.
• 33:13
  Because without freedom, there is no true love.
• 33:20
  Very, very strong point, Victor.
• 33:23
  Right?
• 33:23
  If not, someone forced love is not love, is it?
• 33:28
  It's not.
• 33:30
  And if this, I mean, this is what makes it to me so wonderful.
• 33:36
  We have a God so powerful, so incredible to conceive of, and then have the ability to create this universe, whose one remaining purpose that needed to be satisfied was the experience of love, the love uniquely designed to be experienced by a parent with their children, but that that love to be true, it has to be freely given.
• 34:26
  And their capacity to understand and to respond to him in faithfulness and obedience, such a critical point, isn't it?
• 34:38
  Right.
• 34:39
  If if we grasp that point, we realize what a treasure our life is if lived according to that understanding, and how what a tragedy tragedy it is for us to say to God, oh, you know, you're so great, I sub I subordinate every part of my being to your greatness.
• 35:00
  To say to God, oh, you know, you're so great, I sub I subordinate every part of my being to your greatness, and God saying, Wonderful, would you please get up and help build my kingdom?
• 35:10
  And God's saying, Wonderful, would you please get up and help build my kingdom?
• 35:16
  Because I can't do it on my own.
• 35:16
  Because I can't do it on my own.
• 35:20
  You are responsible.
• 35:20
  You are responsible.
• 35:23
  So would you say our purpose in life is to build God's kingdom?
• 35:23
  So would you say our purpose in life is to build God's kingdom?
• 35:29
  Is that what?
• 35:29
  Is that what is it?
• 35:30
  Would you say that?
• 35:33
  Yeah, if one understands God's kingdom to be a world in which we finally and completely liberate ourselves from the influence of sin and corruption and live together with each other with a fraternity and and love and compassion and joy that absolutely trans ever transcends every boundary that at the moment we separate ourselves by.
• 36:07
  Yeah, if that's if that's the description of the kingdom of heaven, yes.
• 36:13
  I'm in, I'm up for it.
• 36:15
  Well, exactly.
• 36:16
  And this is what I what really impresses me about you and and Thomas, this much more positive vision of Christianity than some have out there.
• 36:26
  Some, the worse the world gets, the the happier they are, because they think this means Jesus is just around the corner.
• 36:36
  But why would Jesus return to a world that is corrupt and turning away from his father's word?
• 36:44
  Right.
• 36:45
  Wouldn't he rather return to a world world that has fulfilled his father's world, father's vision?
• 36:52
  Or wouldn't that be his purpose in returning in the first place to complete his father's work?
• 37:03
  Yeah, we were created here on earth.
• 37:08
  Thy kingdom come, thy will be done.
• 37:11
  Where?
• 37:12
  On earth as it is in heaven.
• 37:15
  Thank you.
• 37:17
  Our destiny is not somewhere in the in the sky.
• 37:22
  It's here.
• 37:24
  What a you know, let that sit in our hearts.
• 37:28
  The the vision of heaven is the vision with which God created us in the beginning with the intention of and hope for us to realize here in Genesis it says we must subdue the world that we are given dominion over this world to fulfill God's plan.
• 37:52
  That's how I read it.
• 37:54
  Of course.
• 37:55
  And we're not, and we we get so wrapped up in this ideal of idea of personal salvation that we would let the world go to hell, the thinking we're okay, we're we're all right, Jack.
• 38:09
  The rest of the world can just go to hell as long as we're we're all right.
• 38:15
  You know, Trevor, I you know, two things can be true at the same time, as as you well know.
• 38:21
  And personal salvation is really important, you know, personal liberation and and and the fulfillment of of our individual life, the satisfaction of our deepest yearnings and longings is really important, but it's not the end, it's the building block from which greater and more wonderful things are created.
• 38:52
  The first of which is I have a wife, my wife and the relationship I share with her is so much more and brings so much more joy and and and fulfillment than any amount of personal liberation or salvation could ever bring me.
• 39:15
  It it's given meaning in that relationship, and then as parents, we expand it, and then as neighbors, and I and if we're talking about providential context, eventually, as nations, we are we are designed from the microcosmic to the macrocosmic to live in peace and harmony and joy, and until such until we uh uh resolve the issues that have prevented us, or yeah, that uh they're obstructing our experience, such an experience, we have work to do.
• 40:01
  We have work to do, yes.
• 40:04
  It is a job, isn't it?
• 40:06
  It's a mission, it's not a passive thing where you just sit on your backside for your whole life and just not kill anybody and think that's your mission, you know, it's a much more positive view.
• 40:19
  Now, how so if you look at the world today, you know, you get a lot of chaos going on, a lot of evil out there.
• 40:26
  You often talk about America's role and all of this, America's role in the world.
• 40:32
  How do you view America as a providential nation?
• 40:39
  Oh, Trevor, I as you know, Australian by birth, good fortune to be Australian by birth, and an American citizen by choice.
• 40:50
  Um, as you well know, life in Australia is exceedingly comfortable.
• 40:59
  So why would a young boy, in fact, I arrived in America 50 one years ago, and uh from my earliest days in New York City until now.
• 41:15
  Uh this isn't an intellectual, it's not so much an intellectual experience as it is my soul's journey.
• 41:24
  I felt, I feel it, in the marrow of my bones, the presence of God and the presence and and the and the providential thread, that providential historical thread running through the very soul of America, and so it's within that context that I that my my affection for this, or it's that context to which my affection is dedicated and directed here in America.
• 42:00
  My affection is dedicated and directed here in America.
• 42:06
  See, if you look at God's plan as us living in harmony and freedom and prosperity, no nation is coming as close to that ideal as America.
• 42:06
  See, if you look at God's plan as us living in harmony and freedom and prosperity, no nation is coming as close to that ideal as America, and that started with the pilgrims and the Mayflower Compact and the American Revolution, the Cold War, all of it.
• 42:16
  And that started with the pilgrims and the Mayflower Compact and the American Revolution, the Cold War, all of it.
• 42:25
  You know, there's been a I I I see, I believe I see what you see.
• 42:25
  You know, there's been a I see, I believe I see what you see that there's a providential thread from the founding fathers from earlier than that, this providential thread that started in England and Europe and was informed by Christianity, people came here to start a new life, and they they created a nation like no one had ever seen before.
• 42:50
  And so is it our responsibility to preserve and and improve this place?
• 42:57
  You know, um my mind's uh hearkening back uh to not that long ago, when was it January, February, the Super Bowl?
• 43:08
  As someone who loves pretty much any competitive sport, I realized the super bowl is not won by any individual, the vic the victory in a super bowl is realized and fulfilled through a team, where each member of the team and and the and the guys in this case it's the guys on the bench have a role to play, and to the extent that they fulfill that role more fully or completely uh than their opposition, the prize is a super bowl, and I I use that analogy because this is not easy for some people of faith to come to terms with, but from heaven's perspective, from a providential perspective, each nation, and we could even say even religions themselves, how in and in what context, for example, does the purpose of Christianity fulfill its highest goal?
• 44:31
  Actually, it's not sorry to say, in a sense, it's not by converting the entire world to Christianity, likewise the faithful Muslims who, in their mind, need to be converting the whole world to Islam.
• 44:55
  Sorry, you're missing the point.
• 44:58
  The purpose of religion and religions is fulfilled not within their own walls and seeking to expand those walls to then capture the entire world, but according to the role that and responsibility that has been bequeathed to them by God in fulfilling the providence of heaven, which is ultimately to identify and remove evil in all of its manifestations, and to realize a world where in effect the role of religion is fulfilled because religion by definition is seeking to reconnect us to something that we with which we have become disconnected.
• 45:54
  If we re if we collectively, and I don't mean that in a Marxist sense, but I mean providentially, if we reconnect ourselves with that source with our providential purpose, religion will have, and our religions will have fulfilled their destiny.
• 46:16
  Now that's a bit of a mouthful for some people, but this is where I think the providential context of America becomes really important, and depending on what mindful awareness you have of that providential role, it absolutely informs international relations, our policies, and and how we approach our relations with other nations in the world.
• 46:47
  And right now, Iran is a perfect example of this.
• 46:54
  So what should America's role be vis Iran or communist China or something?
• 47:01
  Should we just leave them alone and let them do what they want?
• 47:06
  Should we push back?
• 47:07
  Should we try and liberate those countries?
• 47:11
  From your perspective, I think I know what you're going to say, but from your perspective, what is America's role on a geopolitical basis?
• 47:20
  Yeah.
• 47:20
  Trevor, we're both old enough to remember the cold war days, and I you know the the mantra from you know the left during the cold war was uh the non-interference in the internal affairs of other nations.
• 47:40
  We have no right to interfere in the internal affairs of other nations.
• 47:46
  I'll just say it bluntly.
• 47:49
  The author of that is the prince of deceit.
• 47:54
  Exactly.
• 47:55
  The author of such thinking is the evil which seeks to preserve and protect its dominion without interference from those who would seek to overcome it.
• 48:15
  And it takes courage, and and and it's very important, I think, Trevor, as well, to understand why we do the things that we are called to do.
• 48:27
  You know, this isn't um uh empire building, but it is with the heart to liberate those who are suffering under oppression, and as God's children, and as our brothers and sisters, they're they're a dis they are deserving of our effort to liberate them, and so informed by such a mind, America has an incredible role in the world, literally as the champion of the providence.
• 49:00
  A mind America has an incredible role in the world, literally as the champion of the providence.
• 49:13
  So was America so if America was right to help liberate the Europe from Nazism, and I believe it was America right to try and liberate the people from Iran.
• 49:13
  So was America so if America was right to help liberate the Europe from Nazism, and I believe it was America right to try and liberate the people from Iran.
• 49:26
  Is it actually America's moral duty to try and liberate the
• 49:26
  Is it actually America's moral duty to try and liberate the people of Iran?
• 49:33
  I think I I might frame it just a tad differently.
• 49:38
  I would say it's America's providential opportunity or providential responsibility, to the extent that we as Americans recognize that dimension.
• 50:01
  If you were God looking at the world and wanting the liberation of your people who are suffering, who would you turn to you turn to the big brother, wouldn't you?
• 50:16
  Turn to the one with whom you have the closest relationship and who has realistically the greatest potential and wherewithal to accomplish the task.
• 50:33
  So if we if we're told to love God and thy neighbor as thyself is a very fundamental part of Christianity, you know, the whole world is our neighbor.
• 50:44
  Everybody who yearns for freedom is our neighbor.
• 50:48
  And it's not as though liberating Iran, you know, liberating Europe had massive positive impacts for America, massive economically and all sorts of ways.
• 51:01
  We wouldn't be as rich as we are today if we hadn't liberated Europe.
• 51:04
  I think that's fair to say.
• 51:06
  And liberating Iran, having a uh a friendly nation in the Middle East where all of that uh culture and innovation and the the deep history of the Iranian people is turned towards good, surely that's going to be a benefit to all of us.
• 51:25
  Trevor, I'm not sure how much time we have left in this conversation, but you are very familiar with the paradigm that Thomas addresses, and I'll recommend it to your listeners uh in his book, The Triumph of Good, Cain Abel, the uh and the end of Marxism.
• 51:46
  And and and Jordan Peterson has some awareness of this as well.
• 51:51
  And I'll simply say I'll I'll state the conclusion and and we'll leave all of the back the background that supports it for another conversation.
• 52:03
  But in human history, literally from the beginning in the first family, there was a confrontation between the two brothers, Cain and Abel.
• 52:20
  Yep, and that brotherly confrontation at the level of just one versus one, you will find manifesting itself all through human history, and it scales all the way through into the world right now, and there are Cain type forces and inspired and informed by the spirit that informed and inspired the original Cain, and there are able type forces and inspired and informed by the spirit of God that had that informed the original Abel.
• 53:09
  Now, having said that, Cain in a worldly sense is not a hundred percent evil, and Abel is not a hundred percent good, but relatively speaking, as history and providence plays itself out, these caught every time there is a confrontation between Cain and Abel, one is going to win, one is going to prevail, the other will be subordinated or defeated.
• 53:41
  When Cain wins or prevails, everybody loses, including Cain.
• 53:50
  When Abel prevails, everybody wins, including the Cain who they have just subjugated.
• 53:57
  For example, Japan, Germany, Germany.
• 54:02
  So if we have again that awareness, it provides uh a mechanism through which to view the world and to even identify the forces that represent Cain, the forces that represent Abel, and and to even reflect on gee whiz, you know, am I somehow enabling or or or in ignorance?
• 54:31
  Have I aligned myself with forces that have more the spirit of Cain than Abel?
• 54:36
  Man, I bet I need to do a little bit of a check here, but this is our point about providential history.
• 54:43
  It is move, it's heading towards in the inexorably towards a a scale of confrontation where if evil Cain prevails, we may have a thousand years of darkness on earth, literally, spiritually.
• 55:04
  If able prevails, we may indeed be on the threshold of a world and an experience such as God has hoped for from the beginning of human history.
• 55:20
  Well, that's what I'm aiming for.
• 55:22
  I think that's what we should all be aiming for.
• 55:25
  And unfortunately, I have to draw this to a close on that note, but that's the that's the duality, isn't it?
• 55:31
  We're either heading to for a world of great evil, a cane world, a cane world world, or a world where the spirit of Abel and the spirit of God is more dominant.
• 55:44
  Now, what would what would you like to leave to your children?
• 55:47
  What would I like to leave to my children?
• 55:50
  So I would definitely want to continue this.
• 55:53
  Um Victor, it's just fascinating to me how you how you interpret things that I've seen before, but never really expressed so well.
• 56:00
  Seen before, but never really expressed so well.
• 56:02
  So I want to thank you for coming on the show and uh get a commitment out of you that you'll come back soon to expand on some of these points.
• 56:02
  So I want to thank you for coming on the show and uh get a commitment out of you that you'll come back soon to expand on some of these points.
• 56:13
  Uh, Trevor, that's what we live for, right?
• 56:13
  Uh Trevor, that's what we live for, right?
• 56:17
  If not this, what else?
• 56:17
  If not this, what else?
• 56:20
  So for those people who are listening to this, may their hearts really be stimulated uh towards goodness and uh a commitment.
• 56:20
  So for those people listening to this, may their hearts really be stimulated uh towards goodness and uh a commitment to uh to join the fight.
• 56:33
  Thank you so much, Victor.
• 56:35
  Um signing up now from America Out Loud, Trevor Loudon.
• 56:40
  God bless Victor and uh God bless all the audience, and let's just fight for that able world.
• 56:46
  Thank you, my friend.
• 56:48
  Thank you.