Latest / The Remnant Radio's Podcast / Speaking in Tongues in Public? What Does the Bible Say?

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Speaking in Tongues in Public? What Does the Bible Say? · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, welcome to the Wonderful World of Remnant Radio.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: In this program, we're talking about the public use of tongues without interpretation.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be an interesting program.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: You guys stay tuned.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, my name is Joshua Lewis.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: I am joined with my co-hosts Michael Miller and Michael Roundtree.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: And today we're talking about the public use of tongues.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: There was a video that was released of Deion Sanders in a press conference where he calmed himself down by speaking in tongues.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Michael Roundtree did a response video to this tongues, uh this display of tongues, and saying, hey, I don't think we should do this without interpreters.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And as the internet does, they accused Michael of being a wet blanket trying to quench the spirit.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: There were other things said as well about his appearance and intelligence, but we won't repeat any of those.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Here is the clip in discussion.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's always a wet blanket.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's just that that doesn't change regret whether it says something or doesn't say something.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_04: That's just true.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: All true, all true.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh hey, let's let's do this.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Let's play the clip and then we'll we'll get some commentary into that so people know exactly what we're talking about today.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Calm myself down.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: There it is.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: He was just really worked up and had to calm himself down.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So he used tongue speech to do so.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Michael, you know, you had a three-minute video.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: You got you got a timer when you're doing shorts, right?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you can only you can only say so many things in that video.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to get straight to the point.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me what were the things that you you wish you would have said in your response that you didn't have the time to.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh honestly, nothing else.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think that I said what needed to be said for a three-minute video, but I would, in a longer video such as this, want to address uh things such as uh one, I actually am glad that Neon Dion, as we called him in his Dallas Cowboy days, I'm glad he's a tongue speaker.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's great.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: I put that in the win win column.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh two, I would want to address the phenomena in the book of Acts where people are speaking in tongues in a very public way, and we don't have some order of two speak or three speak and uh and the order of 1 Corinthians 14 where it requires an interpreter.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I would have wanted to address that.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: We will definitely address that today, way more than a short video could have done.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, I tried to do a short response to it, and I was like, eh, we should just do a full-length video.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I would say those two things.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: Glad Dion is a tongue speaker, don't approve of it right there.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and talking through the book of Acts and trying to discuss the Pentecostal view of you know, two kinds of tongues and those kind of things.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: We've just done that so many times on our show, but it'll be very interesting in the context of an uh an NCAA uh college football press conference and how these principles apply.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know what the NCAA stands for.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't know anything about sports ball.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I only know things about tongues, or at least I think I do.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think the Pentecostals would say, you know nothing.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Miller, and I say that, guys, I'm not trying to pick a fight with my Pentecostal brothers.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh anyone who watches the show knows I was raised in an assemblies of God church.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I've got nothing but fond memories when it comes to encountering the Lord in those spaces.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I I have some theological disagreements today uh that I didn't have back uh that I didn't have back then.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but tremendously thankful for my Pentecostal brothers.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: If anyone hears this and watches me, uh I think I'm I'm speaking down to people, but please, far, far from it.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I love these guys.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: They've contributed so much to the body of Christ, world evangelation, uh evangelization, and even scholarship.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've got some killer Pentecostal scholars that we look to even to this day.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Gordon Fees on uh how to read the Bible for all it's worth is like the gold standard of how to read the Bible uh across denominational uh boundaries there.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: So uh super thrilled uh to to have this discussion today, and but still respectfully go, I disagree with some of this.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Miller, I've talked, Round tree's talked.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh tell us a little bit about what you're you know expecting, excited about, chatting about today, any kind of airbags you want to put on the conversation, that kind of thing.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I mean, I don't know.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_04: I was excited.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: Uh 95 Super Bowl, Neon Dion.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I was uh I was a Cowboys fan and grew up in Dallas.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_04: So I was I was very excited to see that he was a tongue-talking charismatic.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I was shocked at the kind of vitriol that Roundry's short got.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um and the way that people were like, oh, these guys are just Calvinists and they just hate the gifts of the spirit.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I don't know.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I I would say that I'm like Paul.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_04: I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I'm a tongue-talking charismatic as well.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_04: I just wouldn't have done what Dion did.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I love this gift.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_04: And so I I just find it so wild to me how many people would just show up in a chat, make an opinion, uh, or state an opinion without actually knowing very much.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_04: I guess I'm not surprised uh about us anyway.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, all of us uh are tongue-talking charismatics.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: We just disagree with how Dion went about it.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_04: And um, some of the debate, it wasn't like like the comment section wasn't just like, ah man, I disagree with you guys, but thanks.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_04: It was more like, oh my gosh, you guys are just quenching the spirit.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_04: You're like horrible, you're not even really charismatics.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_04: I was just like, this is not like we're debating the virgin birth here.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_04: We didn't deny the deity of Jesus, and yet the vitriol was palpable.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's and I I the question I was asking is like, what do you feel like was threatened?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_04: What just got stolen from you that makes you so upset?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um, because we're not saying don't speak in tongues, and Michael wasn't saying that, he speaks in tongues.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_04: I I I have heard him speak in tongues multiple times.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_04: Well, but he does it.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_04: You've got the most impressive.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: He's a wet blanket when he does it than any of us.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the spirit is enabling me, Josh.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: You saying that the spirit is not doing a good job.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_04: You're not spirit-filled, according to some of these people, because you disagreed with that position.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_04: It was just remarkable for the record.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_04: I think I couldn't believe it's a Calvinist on this show.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, for the record.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_04: That's the other part that's funny.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_04: I saw the uh John Moffitt interview uh you did where uh people were responding to us on the uh law gospel stuff with John Bavier, and they were all angry, like, these guys are just Calvinists.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: And we're like, we're literally not Calvinists.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're literally not, and we had to bring on a Calvinist to explain to people that we're not Calvinists.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um Roger, you had something you wanted to add.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: Oh well, I think one of the things I was surprised of was the number of comments that were like, nowhere in First Corinthians 14 does it say this, and whatever they said was literally and exactly what 1 Corinthians 14 said.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: So there was a lot of that we're gonna walk through.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: But uh I would say Pentecostal scholars articulate things maybe better than Facebook chats, and so we we do want to represent the Pentecostal view well.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and I also just do want to say that we're we're not like diminishing anyone's experience of the Lord.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: Some people watching this have experienced the Lord while there was public uninterrupted tongue talking going on.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I think what we would all say is that was out of order, that is not how the Bible prescribed it, and yet at the same time, I'm not saying it wasn't a real spiritual experience.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: Paul just Paul says the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets, and so there is a way to uh to bring order in that situation.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: And also I do want to talk about ultimately could there be a scenario where we allow for public uninterpreted tongues?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I'll speak for myself and say I could allow for it in a certain scenario, but we'll talk about that later.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think what's important, you know, we were talking about I mentioned Pentecostals earlier.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: And what I don't want people to think is that uh it within my position that like when I was like, hey, I disagree with some of the assemblies of God folks on some of these things, um, that that all of the people in the assemblies of God or the church of God or all classical Pentecostalism as a whole disagrees with our position.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I would actually argue that, you know, Michael just said it, some of the scholarly folks out there, the uh the uh who's it, Gordon Fee, um, and then Jack Hayford, I mean, some of the most popular, influential charismatic or Pentecostal theologians would actually more agree with us than than I think are being persuaded in the comment section.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's true of any tradition, guys, like Methodist scholars versus Methodist congregants and charismatic churches and charismatic congregants.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like you're you're going to have a uh an articulation gap between uh how the the best would represent it versus someone in a comment section.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's just that's just a normal thing uh that's gonna happen in every tradition.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but uh all that to say, we're not really gonna be engaging a ton with a Gordon Fee and a Jack Hayford because they're going to agree with us.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when I did some research on all the various positions where I found that somewhat with us.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: They they would agree in large part that tongues needs an interpreter.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like Jack Hayford will make a distinction between two different kinds of tongue speech, which would be like a prophecy or an instruction or some some kind of uh word that was in a public gathering that would require an interpretation.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So some some uh say that there's a difference.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: The personal private prayer language doesn't need an interpretation, but a an instructional word does.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Jack Hayford says, look, both require an interpretation.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: He acknowledges that both of those exist.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: We we don't.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: We we would just say, hey, there's just one tongue and it's being used in two different ways.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason that distinction is important is because Pentecostals will teach that everyone can speak in tongues, um, but not everyone can uh proclaim words in tongues.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we can all we can all pray in tongues.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: We can have personal private prayer languages, but but there's another kind of gift of tongues that's a little more for like corporate edification.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're not gonna address tons of that argument today, but we towards the end of it are going to show how that doesn't make sense of what's being said in 1 Corinthians 14.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we are going to deal more with argumentations from like Frank uh is it uh Machia, uh William uh Menin uh Menzies Menzies.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-oh I was trying to say Menenez so badly, and that's not his names.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh Philip Fellows, uh, all of these are Pentecostal scholars who would make an argumentation for tongues speech um in the corporate assembly not requiring interpretation.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: They would make the argument that, hey, if you want to pray in tongues, if you want to sing in tongues, if you want to give thanks in tongues, you don't have to give interpretation for those things.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: What you need to give an interpretation for is some kind of instruction, some kind of prophecy.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Again, there's those two categories of tongues.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: One doesn't need an interpretation for, because it's for personal edification.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's for when the gift is being used externally for instruction that it requires an interpretation.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna be engaging and we've distilled their argument into a bite-sized argumentation that I've turned into an acronym called the Just Argument, uh, because they're saying that tongues is justifiable.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: So uh justifiable uninterpreted spiritual tongues, the just argument, uh, saying this is why it is okay.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So turn it into an acronym.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: We've given it uh essentially six points pulling from those scholars themselves.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we'll try to give a presentation for what they really believe, an honest presentation to the best of our ability, and then we will then give a response to each of those points consecutively.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we're gonna make the case.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Tongues needs an interpreter.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh anything you guys want to add on that?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think it's time to jump in.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, Roundtree, go for it, man.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Walk us through point one or two.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or both.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: So what we have described as the just view, the justifiable, uninterpreted, spiritual tongues view.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so I'll give a little bit of the reasoning, Miller.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'll hand off to you here uh in a moment.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: But uh I'll start with number one.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: Number and so what we want to do here is steel man, even our acronym, acronym just is a positive word.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: So we want to steel man the Pentecostal position rather than straw man them and just knock it over and be like, ah, yeah, we're better.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, these are brothers and sisters in Christ, so we want to represent them well.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: So uh, what is the support for you can speak in tongues publicly without interpretation?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: The just view, as we're calling it.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: Number number one, what you're gonna see here is there's a lot of looking at the book of Acts, okay?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and so the story of the early church and the coming of the Holy Spirit.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so they'll look at, for instance, the uh the day of Pentecost, and they're all gathered together, 120 in an upper room, and the spirit is poured out, and people are speaking in tongues, uh, in in a very public way, and there's no interpreter.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I'm not gonna give responses to this yet.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: Just uninterpreted public tongues, Acts chapter 2.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: And then you start to see as this plays out, it appears to be normal.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's also happening in Acts chapter 10 with Cornelius' household, Acts chapter 11, where the story is retold of Cornelius' household, Acts chapter 19, uh, it happens again as the spirit is poured out and the people speak in tongues and prophesy, it says.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: It probably also happens to the Samaritans in Acts chapter 8, even though it doesn't say they spoke in tongues, it says they saw the spirit come upon them.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: That probably means they spoke in tongues, considering how the narrative goes throughout the rest of the book of Acts.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so again, their reasoning is hey, you're camping out all in 1 Corinthians 14.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, take a look at the book of Acts, and all the time people are speaking in tongues, uninterpreted in a very public way.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: So why is it suddenly going to be a problem?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but they're not afraid to go to 1 Corinthians 14.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: They'll look at 1 Corinthians 14 where they say, Well, tongues is a is a sign for unbelievers.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna read this section because I I want to make sure I represent it really well.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so 1 Corinthians 14 22, tongues is a sign not for believers, but for unbelievers.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: So our commentary uh on their view, or actually just their view.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: Paul expects unbelievers to encounter tongues.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: His Isaiah 28, quote, shows the sign, shows the sign confronts, shows the sign confronts the hardened dismiss it, quote, even then they will not listen to me, just as the mockers did at Pentecost.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: So tongues alone doesn't uh tongues alone don't convict, prophecy exposes the heart.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Paul's prefix is to pair tongues with intelligible speech.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: He never tells the church to hide the gift from outsiders.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so uh in other words, just to kind of translate that, Isaiah chapter 28, it's uh Isaiah prophesying, like, because they've been actually mocking Isaiah because uh Isaiah had been like instructing them to obey the law, and they were making fun of his speech.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: He says, Okay, well, let me tell you something.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: Foreigners are gonna speak to you, and uh, and you're going uh and when you hear foreigners speaking to you, that's gonna be a sign that judgment day that because you didn't listen to my prophecies, because you didn't listen to the word of God, well, now you're gonna hear that speech from foreigners, and that's gonna be a sign to you uh that your judgment has actually arrived.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the argument of Isaiah 28 that Paul's going to adapt in First Corinthians chapter 14.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: And the argument that Pentecostals make here is well, uh being that it's a sign of judgment, um, this is really toward the hard-hearted.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: And since the hard-hearted are what's being addressed in Isaiah 28, then the hard-hearted are what's being addressed in 1 Corinthians chapter 14.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a sign of judgment for the hard-hearted, but that doesn't mean that you can't do it ever.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: So that would be kind of their argument.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: Josh uh Miller, would you say that I articulated that well?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: Or accurately according to how Pen Apostles would word it.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, at times it just depends on who you're talking to, because some people are just gonna say, well, it's a sign for unbelievers, meaning we need to speak in tongues around unbelievers, um, because signs can be used in like John's gospel uh to point people to the Messiah.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So here is a sign that God is gathering all people to Himself.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, different tribes, tongues, and lay nations are hearing us speak in our own language.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a sign.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a bunch of unbelievers who don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah, and now here this sign is being given and it's drawing people to salvation.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: So they would take the, hey, this is a sign.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Some will argue that this is from Isaiah 28, but it's kind of like talking to um, you know, a new cage stage Calvinist, you know, and you talk to them about Romans 9, and they're like, Jacob, I've loved Esau, I've hated.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what is he quoting?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they go, uh, like it's like, well, okay.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um he's he's quoting Malachi, he's not quoting Genesis, um, and to say he's speaking of people groups there.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I'm not saying that the whole argument of Calvinism Armenianism rests on that, but like I think sometimes they just say, Oh, this is a sign, and they don't know that there's a quote there.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that of the scholarly community, I'm not saying that of pastors, I'm just saying that sometimes it's just repeated, this is a sign, in the same way that Jesus raised Lazarus was a sign, or in the same way that Jesus turned water into wine as a sign.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they think that those signs are necessarily positive and to draw people to salvation, and that's why we should do it.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: So there is definitely a narrow uh and broad kind of interpretation of this is a sign, and I just I think that's fair.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: Miller, you want to pick up five and six?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_04: Uh did you go through four?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I don't think you did.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: Four through six.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: Four through six.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, guys, I've sorry, I've cited three arguments.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: One is Acts chapter two with public tongues.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the second argument expands that to the other chapters of the book of Acts, although a bigger deal is made out of Acts too, but it's worth mentioning that they also mention uh that they also refer to the other chapters in Acts where there's public uninterpreted tongues, with number three being like tongues is a sign for unbelievers, and we've given varied interpretations of that.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so Miller, you want to pick it up uh with number four, the warning 1423 is uncon is uh conditional.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so some people would make this argument.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: Again, this is not every Pentecostal out there that would say this is the reason why it's okay that Dion spoke with uh in tongues without any kind of interpretation.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_04: They would say that the warning of doing it without interpretation is conditioned.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_04: And so in 1 Corinthians 14, 23, it says, if the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, an outsider or unbeliever enters, will they not say that you're out of your minds?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_04: So Paul's concern here is a scenario where the whole church is like speaking out in tongues, there's no interpretation.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_04: It's not talking about like the individual uh randomly speaking in tongues.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_04: He's talking about the corporate gathering and suddenly tongues takes over the meeting rather than the normal things that should take place in a church gathering.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_04: So it's less about there needing to be interpretation and more about uh avoiding charismatic chaos.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: And so there's that condition in there.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um so that would be one argument.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, another argument is that Paul distinguishes tongues addressed to the church versus um tongues addressed to God.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_04: And so the justification for that, that there being two different kinds of tongues, one given in a sort of public proclamation where it needs to be interpreted because it can't instruct people if it's not interpreted, the other being private prayer.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_04: And so you've got uh 1 Corinthians 14, two, that it says that when a person speaks in tongues, they speak to God, uh, not to men.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and that a tongue addressed to a congregation, on the other hand, there needs to be two or three speakers at most.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, that's in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14, 27 and with interpretation.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_04: So without without an interpreter, the speaker is to keep silent in the church and speak to themselves and God.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_04: So they go back to normal prayer kind of tongues.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then he also Paul mentions how people will sing in tongues or with their spirit in 1 Corinthians 14, 15.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_04: And he grants that one thanking God in tongues gives thanks.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_04: So that's chapter 14, verse 17.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, his only complaint is that an outsider can't say amen.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_04: And so when it comes to thanksgiving, it's a valid form of worship.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_04: It just doesn't build up the outsider unless something intelligible comes with it.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_04: And so uh again, the the distinguishment here is we've got this thing called a private prayer language, which you're free to do.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't need interpretation because it's speaking to God, not to you, versus a public tongue, which is speaking to men, and therefore it needs to be interpreted.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that's kind of their argument.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_04: Now, last argument um that we would hear again, I I think number five, that particular argument I just made, is probably the sh the most common one out there that I have personally heard when talking to Pentecostals.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's the one that I heard most from uh those who are showing up in the comment section of that face to face face and YouTube short.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you guys like playing that X cube and that play box.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_04: I tell you what, those kids and I always call it I always call it the book face.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, last argument uh for the just position, the justified without interpretation position is that Paul's bottom line here is don't forbid speaking in tongues.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_04: And so when you start putting a requirement on people to have an interpretation in a corporate gathering, you're forbidding speaking in tongues.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: You're doing exactly what Paul said not to do.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, he wants them all to speak in tongues in 1 Corinthians 14, 5.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_04: And he even claims to speak in tongues more than all of them in 1 Corinthians 14, 18.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_04: So he closes at the very end of the chapter with do not forbid speaking in tongues.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but that everything that you do needs to just be done in an orderly and decent fashion.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_04: So his preference is that you would rather have five words in an intelligible language than 10,000 words in a tongue.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_04: So it's about uh the priority of teaching.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_04: In the assembly, not necessarily about uh stopping tongues from happening without interpretation.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_04: And again, it still has to do there.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: That's similar to argument number four that we made earlier.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_04: Both of them have to do with making sure that the corporate gathering is protected, that the purpose of the corporate gathering still protects uh the normal liturgy and/or teaching.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's really less about interpretation of tongues than it is about maintaining those, uh, the order of the gathering.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_04: So did I do right on that one, guys?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_04: So that's right.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Representing, steel manning the opposition.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think in their mind, orderly looks like if someone on the stage, if you or worship pastor and goes, hey, uh everyone, build yourself up in your most holy faith and pray in the spirit, and everyone just starts backing a bow showing, they're gonna say that's orderly, opposed to a service being interrupted by uh someone preaching a sermon and then someone just starts going off in tongues.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, hey guys, let's we this is not the moment for that, right?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're not doing that now.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think within at least some uh articulations of the way that this gift needs to be operating, uh it needs to be operating in a controlled sort of environment.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but we just think that those controls are different than that of the Pentecostal view.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, and I want to bring up something too.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: So when I have read Pentecostal scholars, I have always heard them speak about two kinds of tongues, the private prayer language and the public tongues, which is uh for an interpreter in a church service.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: But uh in more conversationally, I have heard people talk about three kinds of tongues.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I have heard people talk about like this is you know what I was taught in my church, not necessarily by a scholar, but common in Pentecostal churches.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so I want to ask you about three kinds of tongues, one being the public uh public tongues for an interpret with an interpreter that functions like a prophecy, two the uh private prayer language that's just between you and God, but then three a big group of people in a church service praying in the spirit all at once.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: So they actually put a a label on there, or or they actually put a category like that's a third kind of tongues.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: Again, I haven't read this in the scholarly literature.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you guys have, but I want to ask you guys to speak to that articulation.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: Have you heard that as well?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh or have you heard it a little differently?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've only heard that the first one, the last one are this well, not the first and last one, the second and the third are the same personal private prayer language and yeah, in in the public use um of that personal private prayer language.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: I I think so.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and they will get this for people who are like, okay, how do you come to that conclusion that they're different kinds of tongues?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it seems as if the interpretation in 1 Corinthians 14 is for the edification of the saints.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that seems to imply to some that this is some kind of instructional word that they need to have some kind of understanding of.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh secondly, in 1 Corinthians, is it chapter 12, where he talks about the different gifts, he says various kinds of tongues.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um so they would say, look, there's multiple categories of different kinds of tongues.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: When I look at that, I go, oh, that's like, you know, Cretans and Mesopotamians and and and you know, uh people who speak Arabic and French and you know, Swahili and like the the tongues there are different dialects, like various dialects of tongues, not that there are various gifts of tongues, multiple, uh, plural.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, there's a similar argumentation that could be say of gifts of healings.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Both gifts and healings are plural there.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I understand how they come to that conclusion.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this I think is less about an argument for me on what categories do we have.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think you could have all three categories, but I think Paul in 1 Corinthians 14, no matter the category you're using, gives the same kind of instruction across the board on how that is to function.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that's that's putting a wet blanket on tongues any more than if someone stood up and wanted to interrupt your sermon in tongues and you would say, Oh, no, please don't do that.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're not, you're not quenching the spirit, you're not forbidding tongue speech in that environment any more than we are saying you need to give an interpretation.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: It'd be like me saying, Hey, Round Tree, when you come to my my church, I know that you're used to like yelling and being rambunctious and like really screaming in your sermons, uh, but my community is not going to receive that well.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so I would just ask that you speak in, you know, calm, cool, academic, you know, uh uh uh uh intensity, you know.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I'm not forbidding him from teaching, I'm instructing him how to practice the gift of teaching in a way that will edify a congregation.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um it would be the exact same equivalent.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: No one here is forbidding tongue speech.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Paul isn't forbidding tongue speech, he is instructing how tongue speech is to operate.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, uh I think I've answered that question, but I'd love to start diving into these points.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Would it be okay, Round Tree, if I did point number one and passed number two over to you, since uh that was the one that you really wanted to pick up?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll just let's move through the list here.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'll start with number one.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Pentecost happened publicly in Acts two in front of unbelievers.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, that is true.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: It did happen in front of unbelievers, but the argumentation is not about whether this happens in front of just unlearned and unbelieving people, but people who have no understanding.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in Acts two, there is no uninterpreted tongues present because those who hear them, when we hear them telling in our own tongue the mighty works of God, Acts 2.11.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: The majority of reading understands, the majority of scholars understand that the miracle that's taking place here is that they're speaking in a known language and the people hear them in their known language.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: There is a minority interpretation from um Robert J.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Williams, um, who says that uh the miracle is actually in the hearing, not in the speaking, right?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that is a minority view, but no matter which one you take, whether they're speaking gibberish and the miracle is that it's being understood, or they're speaking in a known language and people understand it, the tongues are both interpreted in both accounts.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would lean into the prior uh interpretation, not the latter, because we see that there are those who are there who are in awe that God is doing it, but then there's also mockers who are present.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And there are uh some really good theologians.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Gil is one who believes that the mockers were inhabitants of Jerusalem, because when Peter stands up to preach on the day of uh Pentecost, he addresses the men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, because they don't understand what's happening.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, this is a sign of judgment.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: They think they're out of their minds, exactly what we see in 1 Corinthians 14 and 23, that the uh unlearned person is going to think there's something off about this tongue speech, something's crazy with these people.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: So again, argument number one is that Pentecost happened in public around unbelievers.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: We would say unbelievers isn't the emphasis, it's interpretation because tongues does happen in my, it would happen in my church if we followed Paul around unbelievers, but it would just be accompanied by interpretation, right?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: So tongues and interpretation and interpretation is taking place here.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: There are mockers who seem to have the exact effect that Paul said would have on them in 1 Corinthians 14, men of Judea who aren't speaking uh the language of the Parthians and the Elamites and those from Mesopotamia.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: They're not speaking those languages, they're speaking uh likely Aramaic at the time.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And Peter has to get up to explain to them what they're hearing.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then Pentecost uh was something that God initiated, right?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was something sovereign that God had put into the mouths of those people to be a display of his power, according to Joel chapter two, and the promise that he had given for the outpouring of the Spirit.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: But what we see here is that in 1 Corinthians 14, uh, verse 28, and in verse 32, Paul gives explicit instructions.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but if there is no interpreter, let them keep silent in the church and speak to himself in God.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: And 1 Corinthians 14, verse 32, and the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening in Acts chapter 2 is a sovereign outpouring of tongue speech that God is filling them to speak in such a way, they, I don't perceive, have the same kind of control over what is taking place that Paul is saying that the Church of Corinth absolutely has.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: You can choose to pray in your mind, you can choose to pray in your spirit.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening in Acts two is the sovereign outpouring that bypasses all of that to get that initial gospel message spread and communicated to the ears of foreigners.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh any other questions, gentlemen?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Did I do that well?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Did I miss something?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Feel free to commentary.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, Roundger, you want to pick up point number two, and Miller can hit three?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, so point number two, the idea that Luke often presents corporate uninterpreted tongues as normal.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think the way I uh there are a few responses to this.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, uh, first of all, none of the passage, none of these passages have unbelievers present.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: At Caesarea, the observers were the believers from among the circumcised.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: Now I'm talking about chapters 10, 11, and 19.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh at Ephesus, they had just been saved, the spirit's poured out upon them.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: So it doesn't apply quite the same way.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: But even if we want to broaden it to Acts chapter 2, which does have unbelievers present, uh, then I I think here's what what I would say: Luke is narrating the coming of the Holy Spirit uh in a sort of time warped situation.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like take John 7.39, where it says that the Spirit had not yet been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's speaking of his crucifixion, and of course what follows his ultimate uh ascension into heaven.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then Acts 2.33 will also comment like Jesus ascended into the heaven, he received the spirit and poured out now what you both see and hear.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so the spirit obviously existed in the Old Testament from the very first verses.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: He's brooding over the waters and he filled Bezalel with the Holy, uh, you know, Bezalel was filled with the Holy Spirit and others.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so the Holy Spirit existed, obviously, always, and yet the way he related to his people was different, Old Testament to New Testament.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: There is a permanence and an indwelling for all of God's people that took place in the New Testament.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: So there's this time warp that's taking place, like John 7.39 indicates what happened.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: Acts chapter 1, we read, and it indicates that this will happen.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus talking about him to him about the kingdom of God, says, Hey, what John the Baptist discussed, this uh this Holy Spirit that's gonna come upon you.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm telling you, it's coming.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_03: You got to wait in Jerusalem.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so wait for this outpouring, and you'll receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: Verse 8, Acts 1, when the Holy uh you'll receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like expanding outward.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: There's a there's a geographical component to that, but there's especially an ethnic component to that uh as well.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so Jerusalem, the very people who crucified Jesus, expanding uh out outside of that to Judea, so the whole southern tribes, and then uh beyond that to the Samaritans, which was in part the northern tribes of Israel, but by then they had assimilated in and kind of mixed uh racially with the Assyrians after the Assyrian uh uh exile.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but basically the Samaritans were off-religiously and they were mixed uh uh uh ethnically, and then to the Gentiles, to the ends of the earth.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so the book of Acts is going to narrate the coming of the Holy Spirit, and it's gonna follow that pattern.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: So Acts chapter two, it's it occurs in Jerusalem.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: Now you have a lot of people who are beyond the scope of Jerusalem, but they're all in Jerusalem when the Spirit is poured out, and uh and the ones who receive the outpouring themselves in the beginning part of Acts 2 when the Spirit's first poured out are the 120, the believers.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: Then the Spirit expands his uh in this time warp is like is the Holy Spirit's coming upon all who believe.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Acts chapter 8, we talked about that.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's the Samaritans.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: Remember, uh Jerusalem and Judea, and then Samaria, and then it's gonna go into the earth with Gentiles, Acts chapter 10 and 11.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then Acts chapter 19 is kind of a unique scenario.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like Judea, because they've been around for John the Baptist, but they were incomplete in their understanding.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: But here's my uh and so Paul has to complete their understanding of the gospel and the events of what just happened in Jesus, and then and they believe and they receive the Spirit.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: And there's some debate about those ones, but but ultimately, here's the big picture.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_03: The big picture is they're in this time where God has promised, the Spirit is going to be given to all who believe, but it doesn't just happen that, hey, Jesus died and rose again, so suddenly everyone has the Holy Spirit, it begins in Jerusalem and expands, uh, just as Acts 1.8 promised.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: And what is their indicator?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: Their indicator is they're speaking, uh, what they see with their eyes and hear with their ears is people speaking in tongues.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: And in some cases, as in Acts chapter 19, it says they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so what I would argue is that this was a very unique moment in history, and everybody agrees on that, but the tongues functioned there a little differently than it did in first Corinthians, uh, than it does in 1 Corinthians 14, where it's talking about a church service.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: These aren't church services where this is happening.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and that this is talking about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on new people groups as God as God is sort of moving from part A of the time warp to part B, which is now starting then to now.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was a unique period, and it the outpouring marked the Holy Spirit's arrival uh to the church in a whole new way.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so I don't think it is apples to apples to describe, and Josh, I know I departed from the notes there in a thousand ways, so y'all can feel free to pick up what I missed in the notes.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just going more from memory.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: But uh here's what I would say.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: I said at the top of the show that I could allow for a scenario where there is public uninterpreted tongues.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: And this is hard, you know, to really do the theology from you have the narrative of Acts, and then you have the didactic, the the sort of explicit statements of 1 Corinthians 14.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: How do we synthesize this?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it's understandable that a lot of believers have differences here.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: But here's how I would synthesize uh one way that I would synthesize it is if the Holy Spirit's outpouring is marked in these cases in Acts by speaking in tongues.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: Personally, I could allow for, even though that's unique and that it existed in the time warp, and we're well beyond that, uh, I could allow for a scenario where the Holy Spirit is being poured out on a group of people who explodes in tongues, and the spirit marks the tongue speech marks the spirit coming up on them.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: Again, it's not identical to what happens in Acts because we're well beyond that time warp.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: But the principle of an outpouring of the spirit being marked by a larger group of people speaking in tongues, I could go for.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: So in Dion Sanders situation, which, like Acts, was not a church service.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: Let's imagine that Dion and 50 of the reporters in the room all suddenly just exploded in tongues.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't have released that video.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: But what Dion says is different than that.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: First of all, it's just him, it's not a whole group of people.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: Second of all, he says, I've got to calm myself down, which great is a great usage to speak of tongues, in my opinion.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: But uh he says, I've got to calm myself down.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: So he's speaking of the first Corinthians 14 sense.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna do this to sort of edify myself.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: He's not talking about it in the sense of there's an outpouring of the Holy Spirit happening right now.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh, you know, the story I think of from more recent church history is John Wember's church.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: There was a Mother's Day service where uh Lonnie Frisbee said, Come Holy Spirit, and suddenly everyone in the church fell down.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: And and John was uh didn't know what to do, but a whole bunch of people were speaking in tongues all around the room.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of funny.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: You can listen to him tell the story when he uh in in YouTube, you can look it up.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: And his worship leader falls in front of the microphone, and he is speaking in tongues, and John's thinking, Oh no, there's no interpreter, what am I gonna do?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like that song, the bodies hit the flow.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like he can't even get to the guy, he can't even do anything, he has like no recourse, and the guys in the sound booth they've fallen out and they're speaking in tongues too.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so he's just looking around and he said, What is going on?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and that was a beginning for the vineyard and uh of uh just a beginning of a movement of the spirit through that uh group of churches.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I would say, like, if if in my my church service something like that happened, I don't think I would get up and tell everyone to stop.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: I would sit and I'd try to discern, okay, I think if this is a real move of the spirit, I'm not gonna interrupt that.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that's what 1 Corinthians 14 is uh is really talking about.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's not talking about an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I also think it would be fair pushback if someone said to me, nah, Michael, this was a time warp in Book of Acts, you can't apply that to future outpourings.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I think that's fair, fair pushback.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: We're all wrestling with the text, but uh, I don't think that's I don't see myself interrupting it if I'm in John Wimber's scenario.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're you're saying that you're open to it, you're not necessarily endorsing it.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're and I understand there's a difference there between uh that could be a possible interpretation, but but to point number two, point point number one was hey, Acts two is a good example.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we go, hey, it's not really a good example.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was interpreted.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: And uh those who didn't understand what was going on, um uh it was a sign of judgment to them.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh then point number two, uh, Luke presents this corporate understanding of tongues.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: He represents it in Acts 10, 11, and 19.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you said, hey, look, unbelievers aren't present here.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: So even if there are believers who are present, it's still not violating Paul's rule in 1 Corinthians 14.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no interpreter, there's no two or three limit that's going on here, because again, uh, this would be the equivalent of a prayer meeting, a Bible study, uh effectively.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: If me and Miller and Roundtree uh got into uh you know a room to pray and we just wanted to kind of break off and pray our own, not not praying in agreement necessarily.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, cool, we can pray in tongues, zero problem with it.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard Miller pray in tongues a dozen times and uh and me the same and roundtree the same.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, yep, we can just pray in tongues, totally fine.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's no need because one, unbelievers aren't present, and if there are unbelievers that are present, there would be an interpretation.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: None of those rules are being violated here.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: The uh cesarea witnesses understood they're hearing them extol the works of God.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that's very important that we understand that they're extolling the works of God in Acts two, and they're doing the same here, which kind of suggests that prayer is more, I'm sorry, tongues is more prayer and worship than it is public instruction, because Peter had to explain what was taking place in Acts.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: So again, that's another important point.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think the chronology is one thing that Michael didn't bring up um in his articulation of point number two and our rebuttal to it.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the chronology is that Paul writes 1 Corinthians after he uh is in uh Ephesus, where Luke is writing in Acts 19.6.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: So Luke is writing the stories that are happening in Acts 19.6 when he's there at Ephesus.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: But in 1 Corinthians 16, 8, Paul says, and when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's the wrong one.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's Acts 19.6.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, this is 1 Corinthians 16.8, but I will stay in Ephesus until Pentecost.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: So Paul is literally riding to Corinth from Ephesus after the event that was just recorded in Acts 19.6.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: So why is that important?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because Paul is giving the Church of Corinth instruction about how to practice tongues, which means uh he does not believe what happened in Acts 19 is violating that kind of activity.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Craig Keener makes a comment here that Luke and Paul are using the exact same uh function of words, and it's so closely together when it speaks of tongue speech that they're referring to the same kind of activity in 1 Corinthians 14 and what's happening in the book of Acts.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: He makes his argumentation because there was no expression or phrase for what was taking place.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is a new idea, and Paul and Luke are likely sharing that language and uh cross-referencing that information as they're doing their works, which I think is a significant and good argument.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Fee and Stewart in their uh book on how to inscript interpret scripture for all that all it's worth, uh, will both argue that we should not allow uh patterns in the book of Acts to supersede prescription that is given to us um in the epistles.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because something is recorded as to have happened doesn't justify that is the way that that thing should happen all the time.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: For example, uh Tamar sleeps with her father-in-law.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: That is recording historical events.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is not telling you that is what you're supposed to do with your life.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Those are two different things.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: So the fact that God said, you know, the inauguration of the temple, the spirit fell, and no ministers could stand, it doesn't mean that that is what's supposed to happen every time someone has a church plant.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's just recording something that happened in history.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just, even if we were to concede the ground that this was taking place, these tongues were taking place in front of unbelievers, it doesn't justify that that's what we're supposed to be doing is speaking tongues in front of unbelievers if Paul explicitly says not to do that thing.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I think that's all of point one and point two.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Miller, feel free to fill in anything that we left out or just jump into point three.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I'll go into point three and just a recap, because I imagine everybody's gotta be lost at this point.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_04: I want the original six points.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_04: We had were uh as we laid out what we think is what they what we we are calling effectively the just position, justified to speak in tongues without interpreter.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um in point number three, we're referring to the argument made about Isaiah 28.11, or the fact that in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul will quote Isaiah 28, 11, and 12 uh in reference to tongues being a sign for the unbeliever.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_04: They'll say that it was expected.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_04: The fact that Paul says that tongues is a sign for an unbeliever means that unbelievers should expect, we should expect unbelievers to experience tongues or see tongues uh spoken.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that's not what is being avoided.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, that's what's being encouraged.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_04: It's just in a church service, it needs to be intelligible.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so then it kind of justifies what Dion did because it's not in a church service.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I would say that the scholars, charismatic scholars, disagree with that position.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_04: They're not looking at the tongue speech that's spoken and uh uninterpreted in uh, well, let me rephrase.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_04: They're not, they don't interpret Isaiah 28, 11, Paul's referencing of that to be a sign, therefore, that people who are unbelievers should expect to experience.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like they didn't expect unbelievers to experience tongues.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, when it says it's a sign, it's a sign of judgment, not one that's gonna convict them and call them into repentance.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_04: Now, I know some will anecdotal will say anecdotally, yeah, but I've spoken in tongues in front of an unbeliever and they liked it.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so what?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_04: What does that have to do with what the scriptures say?
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_04: The point is it functions as a sign of judgment, one that's gonna cause people to think you're crazy.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, Gordon Fee, uh, he will talk about how Paul uh shapes this argument.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: And he says in Isaiah, he Isaiah 28, 11 through 12, foreign languages signify God's judgment upon Israel for refusing to listen to his word.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_04: So he quotes the passage from 1 Corinthians 14, 21 through 22 to explain why tongues are assigned to unbelievers.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_04: The point is that uninterpreted tongues signify judgment rather than produce conversion.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_04: Just as Israel's encounter with foreign languages demonstrated demonstrated the consequences of rejecting God's word, uninterpreted tongues can leave unbelievers confused and alienated.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_04: In the same way, I could also say uh anecdotally that I've had people who are unbelievers show up in meetings like that, and I wish I hadn't brought them because it did terrify them and freak them out.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_04: And not just unbelievers, those who've never had any kind of explanation as to what the gifts of the spirit are.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_04: And so, tongue speech, it sort of functions to an unbeliever, no different than the plagues would function for the unbelievers in Egypt.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_04: They function as signs of judgment, the gods have turned against them.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_04: And so the grammar also supports this interpretation.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the word therefore in 1 Corinthians 14, 23, makes the outsider's reaction the illustration of verse 22.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_04: Paul's picture is of tongues as a sign to unbeliever, is the unbeliever saying, You're insane.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_04: That's the repercussion.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_04: That's the outcome, that's the uh illustration and the outcome that Paul is trying to avoid.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_04: He doesn't want those who are unbelievers or those who are uninformed about gifts to walk into the meeting and get freaked out.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_04: And I'll just add a little caveat that is probably going to be addressed more in point number six.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_04: But even if you say that a public tongue needs to be interpreted, but not a private prayer language, one's got to ask, what was the outcome Paul is trying to avoid?
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_04: Here in Isaiah, by quoting Isaiah 28, 11, he's trying to avoid the unbeliever walking into the room and getting freaked out by what he's saying.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, even if you say, hey, it's a prayer language, everybody sing in tongues together.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_04: The unbeliever in the room is gonna look at it and go, What the heck, dude?
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_04: I gotta get out of here.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_04: You people are crazy.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that's what Paul is trying to avoid.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_04: The outcome is still the same.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, whether you think it's a private prayer language or whether you think it's a public instruction uh in tongues, either way, without interpretation, unbelievers think it's nuts.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_04: And that's again, at least that's what Paul is saying will happen.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_04: Now, um, a lot of commentators they'll read the sign as negative.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_04: Phi is probably the most um, I'd say, vocal about it.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_04: And on chapter 14, 22, he says Paul's urgency is that the Corinthians stop the public use of tongues since it serves to drive the unbeliever away.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_04: He calls Paul's final words about uninterpreted tongues in the assembly.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um Chester is going to argue against it.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_04: He concedes that there's an agreement that the effect of tongues on the outsider whose interest is the gospel is quenched by the experience, is one of alienation or repulsion.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_04: He lists Carson, Fee, Thistleton, Ben Witherington in that camp.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_04: Storms also concludes, that's the Sam Storms, do not permit uninterpreted tongue speech in a church, for in doing so you run the risk of communicating a negative sign to people that will only drive them away.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_04: I think the biggest concern out of all of these things, it's not just making the unbeliever think you're crazy, it's actually causing the unbeliever to think you're crazy and then reject the gospel, which is not what Paul wants.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_04: Paul wants people to receive the gospel.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_04: And that's actually part of my concern with the Dion video, is I'm looking at my unbelieving family watching Dion and going, You charismatics are nuts.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I don't want any part of your religion.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_04: You're just weird.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_04: Or you Christians are nuts.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, or you Christians are nuts in general, right?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_04: Either way, the effect is the gospel is what we're worried about being rejected.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_04: And so for those, let me let me finish this little point here.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_04: For those who would argue um that uh, gosh, I lost my train of thought here.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um the unbeliever out there observing this, I I understand that there was a lot of volatile response.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_04: And I I look I look at your volatility on this and I go, Do you understand what we actually think is at at uh risk here?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you're afraid of us quenching the spirit by saying, Don't do this without interpreter in a public forum where there's unbelievers present.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I'm concerned about the gospel being rejected by the unbeliever because of it.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_04: Which one do you think should have more volatility attached to it?
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I I gotta say, the rejection of the gospel is a far greater concern to me than the quenching of the spirit in this moment.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_04: And that probably is my biggest grievance with this.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you would say quenching the spirit would still be a big concern to you.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_03: But if by I would I agree with Paul, don't do it.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_03: Somebody if by quenching the spirit somebody meant um you're not letting your church service have free reign on everyone speak in tongues, you're gonna say, that's not really my concern.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because the reality is you would oppose anything that actually quenches the spirit.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't think quenching the spirit what more likely quenches the spirit is that which violates the scripture which the spirit wrote.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's right.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, charismatic.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_04: I would never say that.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: I would say that despite being charismatic uh myself, I think that we charismatics often will use the language quench the spirit to basically quench any opposing argument.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's a it's it's basically like you can't argue with this because it's quenching the spirit, but we actually can debate with like a good-hearted debate over what the scripture says, which the spirit wrote.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I will tell you, it is quenching the spirit to disobey the Bible.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_03: And using the language of quench the spirit to simply mean we open the floodgates to just whatever goes on in a church service.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, that's not quenching the spirit, that's obeying the spirit.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: So uh, Miller, what were we gonna say?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: You were gonna loud like what I was saying.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_04: Are you asking because you're asking me a question and then you answered it?
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_04: So I was like, are you actually asking me, or are you just saying, here's what you really think, Michael?
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_03: I really was not interested in his opinion at all.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Josh.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_04: Let me let me say one comment on the quenching of the spirit part.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_04: So I I I agree.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_04: I I'm not okay with quenching the spirit.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_04: You know, Paul says, Don't quench the spirit, do not forbid prophecy.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_04: I would also say, don't quench the spirit, don't forbid speaking in tongues.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm all for these gifts.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just for these gifts in a way that the scriptures advocate for.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I think when it comes to the public use of interpret uh tongues, it does require interpretation, whether that be what you think is a prayer language or what you think is an instruction in tongues.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, either way, interpretation is what's beneficial for those who are unbelievers and those who are uninformed.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_04: And I would even go further, like if you look at Acts chapter two and the other examples we gave where people started sporadically speaking in tongues, there almost always was an explanation.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_04: And it never ended up violating what Paul's concern was people walking away going, these people are crazy and therefore rejecting the gospel.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that's not what's happening in those occasions, and it's not going to happen in those occasions.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's about it.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: I want to touch on two things, well, a couple things maybe.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I love what Miller said, and if I can put it into a Pentecostal colloquial, I want Christ to be the stumbling block.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want my practice of spiritual gifts to be the stumbling block.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: I want people to be able, if they if they reject Christ, let it be because they don't want Christ.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: Don't let it be because I've packaged it in a super weird way.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I've got a whole story about that that is stuck in my mind from when I was in a uh Spanish-speaking Pentecostal church.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if you think, you know, Anglo-Saxon Pentecostal churches can get rowdy, you've never been to a Pentecostal church, right?
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but uh I was in this Hispanic church, and every time the pastor would say something really good, and he would do it with a translator, say something good, uh, all of the deacons that were all wearing red suits on the front row would look up and down the aisle and shake their head like, yeah, that was good enough.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: And they would stand up and blow chauffars as to amen what was being said.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: Really threw off the preacher.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was really, it was quite funny.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but then, you know, during the service, uh, you know, they uh they had during worship, you know, everyone is dressed like uh ironic priests.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: All the all the ladies in the church are dressed like ironic priests and they were waving flags all throughout the service.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh when they did the offering, uh yeah, the the the the deacons put on their shoulders erotic and in I'm sorry, it just messed me up.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: Ironic as in yeah, the Moses' brother, Levitical priest.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then they're they're walking uh down uh the the aisle with the Ark of the Covenant on their shoulders for the offering, and everyone puts money into it.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm looking at all this, going, man, this is so like it's all tradition, but like I could see someone coming in going, these people are crazy.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what actually got me to start questioning a lot of my Pentecostalism, because I was like, people are going to stumble over the packaging, because I don't actually think anything they were doing was was so egregious or so unpermitted in the assembly.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I was like, you're you're putting unnecessarily weirdness in front of Jesus that would that the packaging would prevent people from accept accessing this.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then I go, okay, but um, what am I doing that is in that same category?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've I felt instantly almost like the spirit was kind of like leading me inward to go, okay, you're you're also doing these sorts of things uh with tongues and interpretation.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh when I when I when I think about that, Christ needs to be the stumbling block.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the emphasis there.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um another thing that you know Miller mentioned was that in his experience, anecdotally, people have said, Oh, uh the tongue speech is weird and it's uncomfortable, um, and it makes me think that you guys are crazy.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: That is anecdotal experience.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: It is one that lines up with scripture.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: But people have said on the other side, because there are two different kinds of tongues, if someone got up in the pulpit and started speaking in tongues and people were just supposed to understand what was being said because they were giving a message and there was no interpreter, yeah, people would think you're crazy.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: But when we all pray in the spirit, when we all worship in the spirit, we all speak in in unknown languages.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've had tons of reports of unbelievers coming to me saying, wow, that was super powerful.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so thankful for that experience.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: That was so cool.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: What was that?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they go, they're always impressed and they're interested and wanting to know more about it.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, hey, listen, it's anecdotal evidence.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think that God can reach people, totally possible, in the midst of our malpractice.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: But when he explicitly warns us that this malpractice will have this effect on others, we should avoid that malpractice.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: We shouldn't lean on our experience and say, well, because people had a positive experience, we should keep speaking in tongues publicly.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's only the religious, it's only those people who were raised in cessationist churches who heard that tongues were demonic.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they're the only people that have problems with this.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's just factually untrue.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not the case.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Miller's family is Jewish, or at least his mom is.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, so like when he's talking about family members who see Christians, you know, performing certain tongues acts and think that they're crazy.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, that's anecdotally um our experience of unbelievers as well.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: But Paul's argument, uh, I think stands.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Miller, Roundtree, I know we're getting late on this.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to uh run away with point four and five?
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe I'll close this out with point six?
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh sure.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_03: So point four, the idea that the warning of 1 Corinthians 14, 23 is conditional.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and let me read what the warning is and explain the argument and the response very quickly.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh 1 Corinthians 14 23.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: If therefore the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, they will not say, will they not say that you're out of your minds?
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_03: So uh some Pentecostals will read that and say, well, Paul's when Paul says don't do this, don't speak in uninterpreted tongues, he's talking in the context of every single person uh is is doing it and hijacking the whole church service so that it's out of control.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, we can say, I almost kind of agree with that, but that sounds like exactly what's happening when a worship leader stands up and says, Hey, let's all pray in the spirit together, let's all speak in tongues together.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_03: That still feels like a hijacking of a church service to do something Paul said not to do.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_03: In other words, you're calling the whole church to do something that uh Paul forbids.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't see how that really saves it.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: I also think that is a reading into the text as if the church in Corinth had this like perfect liturgy that was somehow being disrupted by a mass of tongue speakers all at once.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, did they have that kind of liturgy and what was it such a disruption?
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that's that in the way that Pentecostals sometimes describe.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm not convinced of that.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_03: And what they describe as a worship leader just standing up and and doing it sounds like precisely what Paul forbids.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_03: And uh what we see, Paul, I I think probably even a better argument in response is Paul's solution isn't to try to thin out tongue speaking in the church, like, oh, just try to do it a little less.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_03: Don't try to get everybody, just try to get some people, or try not to get it to hijack the whole service, just maybe part of the service.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you don't see him saying that.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_03: He uh instead he says in verse 27, like the rule applies to any who speak in a tongue, and a single thanksgiving in tongues already falls out of order, verse 16.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I just don't buy the Pentecostal argument on that.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_03: Now let's look at number five, and you guys can clean up if I was unclear on anything whenever we come back to it.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_03: So Paul distinguishes tongues addressed to the church from tongues addressed to God.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_03: In other words, this whole two kinds of tongues there's prayer in tongues, and there's sort of like declarative prophecy in tongues that requires an interpreter, but hey, prayer to tongue, prayer in tongues uh doesn't apply, to which we would argue there's actually no distinction that we see in the scripture.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_03: And in fact, if you I'm gonna read 1 Corinthians 14, verses 13 to 19, the examples he gives are all forms of prayer to God in tongues, which he forbids.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_03: And this is one of those like Facebook comments is like, Paul never forbids praying in tongues, he only forbids speaking in tongues.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: So you can hear that sort of like there are two kinds of tongues, language being used there, but none of us on the show are actually convinced that what Paul is talking about when he talks about speaking in tongues, even with an interpreter, that it's functioning like a declarative prophetic message to say an individual or to the to the church.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_03: But what it looks like Paul's actually talking about is actually a vertical message, a prayer or a thanksgiving, and he forbids that uninterpreted, the prayer.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_03: So he's literally forbidding the very thing Pentecostals say, please do this.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_03: Let's read it.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_03: Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_03: For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_03: Subtext, that's bad.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: What am I to do?
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_03: I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_03: I will sing praise with my spirit.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: So now we have praying in the spirit, we have singing in the spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_03: Context church services.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um he's saying, Don't pray in the spirit in church services, don't sing in the spirit in church services uninterpreted.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_03: He says, Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of outsider say amen to your thanksgiving?
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_03: Remember the word outsider used in the context of a sign of judgment.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_03: Even if you're giving thanks to God in tongues, it's a sign of judgment.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_03: If you're praying in tongues, it's a sign of judgment to unbelievers.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_03: So Paul says, do not ever do this in a church service to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you're saying.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_03: Verse 17, for you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not built up.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_03: I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_03: He's a proud tongue speaker.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_03: Nevertheless, in church, which is the context of this whole section, I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others than 10,000 words in a tongue.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_03: And and what I just want to exhort my Pentecostal brothers and sisters is I just want to say that Paul's examples of public tongue speech that are uninterpreted, they're all about prayer.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_03: Praying to God, singing to God, giving thanks to God.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so the two categories don't work because Paul combines the two the so-called two categories and says, Hey, even your prayers, your direct speech to God shouldn't be done in a public way.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it requires an interpreter.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_03: In other words, he explicitly forbids my I I don't I don't know how else to put it.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: He's he explicitly forbids praying in tongues uh publicly without an interpreter.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_03: And your explicit argument is to do that very thing.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm struggling here.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm struggling here.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_03: So uh I think Paul forbids the very thing that you say.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_03: Guys, am I being too strong here?
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_04: No, I mean I think that's the irony of the whole thing.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's people trying to say, yeah, you should do this whenever you want.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's totally good that Deion Sanders is speaking without interpretation because he's a tongue talker and let's celebrate that he's tongue talking.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, you're celebrating what Paul says don't do.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_04: Like you're calling good what is not good, and that's not okay.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I I think that's explicit language in the text.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_04: Again, my primary concern, and I think I share Paul's concern here, is the unbeliever walking away from the faith entirely.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_04: And that's why he's saying, Don't do this.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_04: This is bad.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um I wish that this concern was shared by my Pentecostal brothers, and I do think they're my brothers, I just think they're wrong on this one.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what would you guys say to this objection here?
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's addressed to me, but I've already talked enough.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Round Tree, that is somewhat of a misunderstanding, but you don't have to agree with me.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_03: I believe he'd bring a greater order and harmony versus chaos, like a choir singing in tongues.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: He's forbidding chaos.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_03: Josh, what would you say to that?
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I let's look at the passage again.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, therefore, one who speaks in tongues should pray that he may interpret.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's not they who speak in tongues should pray for interpret they should pray for an interpretation.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's he's speaking of one individual.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, for if I pray in tongues, it's a single individual, and my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: Round tree, you said that's ergo, not good, but I think that you would be fine with someone praying in tongues and their mind not being fruitful.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: But it's leading up to the bad conclusion, which is in the corporate gathering.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: What am I to do?
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind also.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: I will sing in my spirit, but I will sing uh uh with my mind also.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say amen?
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's speaking to an individual, uh, both in the singular person, speaking to himself and any singular individual.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: So as much as I respect the um context clues of like it sounds like Corinth was a little buckwild and we're gonna try to bring order, I'm thankful that people are trying to bring order.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: But to say that, like, hey, we can speak in tongues as a congregation, we can speak in tongues as a choir and orderly tongue speech, um, again, an outsider has no understanding.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if they have no understanding of tongue speech, what Paul says is that is a sign of judgment.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that that that pushes them away, as Paul understands it.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: So anytime that the application is going to be no understanding, the application is not mutual edification when it comes to understanding.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to say this because um someone in the comments, I actually agreed with someone said, Hey, I've noticed in settings where everyone speaks in tongues, I just I feel the spirit of God.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I I feel uh, you know, uh a kind of heightened sense of a heavenly encounter.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, dude, like I've been in those services.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: I go, yeah, I felt that too.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh it's almost as if we're all building ourselves up, you know, uh praying in the spirit, you know, like we're edifying ourselves, right?
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to be clear, I don't think That building yourself up in the spirit is, you know, by praying in the spirit is a synonym for tongue speech.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_01: But in 1 Corinthians 14, praying in the spirit, like we just read, was uh technically for uh for for tongue speech in 1 Corinthians 14.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm if I'm hey, I'm praying in the spirit, uh speaking in tongues, uh yeah, I'm building myself up experientially.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I think Paul would say you're probably going to experience that, at least potentially.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, however, um, just because a thing is good and has a positive experience doesn't mean that we should violate um a command of order.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_01: Another good example uh by way of analogy is that of communion.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: Do I believe Christ's presence is good?
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: Do I believe Christ is mystically united to bread and wine in communion?
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I do.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: Should unbelievers want to encounter God's spirit?
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_01: Should unbelievers take communion?
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, they should not, right?
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, do you guys do you guys see where I'm going with this?
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't violate the order that is commanded in the scripture to give something to someone that I would argue is good for their benefit because I encounter the spirit when I take communion.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean experientially, this is anecdotal for anyone.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I there was a season in my life I couldn't cry, I couldn't take communion and not weep because I just I felt like I was I was in union with Christ experientially in this beautiful act.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: But that doesn't mean that I am going to give that act in an unprecedented, unbiblical sort of way to unbelievers.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: That is that is for those who have been united to Christ by faith.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_01: So um that that would be an example.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there are people who disagree with that too.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but I think the logic stands.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Roundtree, is that is that a fair answer?
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_01: Miller, would you have add anything to that?
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: No?
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: Not uh let me I think we've got to go with the last point.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can take us home with point number six.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh do you want to do you do you want to do number six?
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sure.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, sorry, I thought you were wanting me to.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_04: Uh okay, the last one has to do with what Paul says at the very end.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, do not forbid speaking in tongues.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_04: So, again, just a reminder of what we said earlier.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_04: The argument goes that uh he's not forbidding speaking in tongues, he's only forbidding doing it in a way that's chaotic in the church.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so uninterpreted tongues is fine, it's just don't do it with everybody shouting out all at once.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_04: The problem is the text doesn't say that.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_04: It says don't forbid speaking in tongues in the same way, like if you know somebody was charging money for prophecy, and then the reaction to it was, therefore, no more prophecy.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_04: Don't do prophecy anymore because somebody misused that gift, and they were charging money for prophecy.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we would say the same thing here.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_04: Like he's not forbidding the use of tongues as in let's throw it out because of how badly it's been misused in the Corinthian church.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_04: He's saying, Hey, uh, don't forbid speaking in tongues.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_04: He still wants it to be interpreted, though.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_04: That's not the shift that's being made.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the big thing is he's not wanting us to throw the gift away entirely because of the misuse of that gift, as I think most cessationists do.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I don't think cessation is largely built on a good theological argument as much as it is bad anecdotal experience with these gifts, and therefore people walk away from them.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, we've said this oftentimes in the podcast that the greatest argument against the gifts of the Spirit are charismatics who practice it in the wrong way.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, not so much the scriptures themselves arguing against the use of the gifts.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_04: So there's a couple other uh things here.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_04: He says, uh, you know, one of the things that Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, 5 is, I want you all to speak in tongues.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_04: Now, Sam Storms, he notes the parallel with chapter 7, verse 7, where it talks about uh uses the same language that you find right here in that verse in verse 5, where he wishes that everybody were like him, celibate.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_04: And so Phi, he uh reads the wish as being about private prayer.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_04: Neither reading gives any kind of license for public use of those things without interpretation.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so in verse 18 through 19, it mentions specifically a context of in the church.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_04: So the phrase marks off where Paul's uh abundant tongue speaking does not happen.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um Fee's summary of 14, 13 through 19 is only what is intelligible in the church, thus no uninterpreted interpreted tongues.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_04: He'd rather speak 5,000 words in a known language.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_04: This is hyperbolic.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, he would rather be there be zero tongues if there's no interpretation, uh and that'd be it.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_04: Or no, I got that backwards, didn't I, Josh?
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_04: Five words against 10,000.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_04: He's talking about uh five words of intelligible speech versus 10,000 in tongues.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, he'd rather not have tongues at all.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_04: Uh he'd rather have intelligible speech, but he'd he'd also prefer to have tongues with interpretation.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um clarify that if I mess that up.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_04: I kind of got that backwards at first.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: You got you got it right at the end, and I'm glad that you made that unintelligible speech intelligible, or else he'd have to kick you off the podcast as a co-host.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we appreciate you for correcting the record.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think that's the end of my argumentation, fellas.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that you guys want to add to this?
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, I'll I'll probably say as a closing thought, um, if you're out there and you and your church speak in tongues uh publicly where unbelievers are present, I am calling you a Christian.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not invalidating your experience of the spirit ministering there.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that you're lying when you say that people have come to you and were complimentary towards the experience.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: But those pieces of evidence are just not convincing and compelling.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, just because that's been the experience.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I would say we need to look at the scripture.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_01: All of us should do this.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're like, hey, Josh, you've got it wrong.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_01: You and your church need to be speaking in tongues because here's the biblical argument.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Give it to me in the comments section.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_01: I want to read it.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I want to understand it because my position is not, I don't want to look weird in front of unbelievers because my position is that I believe that the Son of God, who was eternally God in eternity past, was conceived of a virgin, like came forth in the womb of Virgin Mary.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_01: He floated into the sky, which by the way, heaven isn't in space, but he floated up there somewhere and is coming back to judge the living and the dead on a white horse.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I I already have taken the crazy sauce.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not trying to be a normal guy in front of unbelievers.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_01: I already believe something that is foolishness to Greeks, uh, you know, stumbling block for Jews.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I understand what we believe is already crazy.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_01: My aim is trying to glorify God by being obedient to scripture.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can prove to me that I'm doing this wrong, I want to do it right because uh I want the church to be built up and edified.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I want God to be glorified, but I have not heard a compelling and persuasive argument.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I would just plead with my brothers and sisters on the other side of the aisle in the same way that I would say, hey, change my mind, please be open to God changing your mind too.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Don't allow your experience of a thing, don't allow your tradition of a thing to override what the scripture seems to be saying plainly.
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_01: That this was a problem for me, is because I had a lot of people around me, godly men and women, and I go, well, they they understand this differently.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I must, I must have this wrong.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_01: But every time I came back to the text and just asked myself, what is Paul telling me to do and not do?
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Every time I came away going, I think Paul's telling me not to speak in tongues publicly.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we should allow Christ to be the head of his church.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_01: We should allow the scriptures to be our ordering line of faith life and practice.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_01: And if we find ourselves in a space that that does not agree or adhere to that, um, we probably need to challenge the status quo when it comes to those sorts of things.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that those are my my closing thoughts.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you guys want to have anything you want to add to to wrap us up?
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I'll just I'll say a few things.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, first of all, I pray in tongues all the time, every day, pretty much.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I pray in tongues in church as well, even when there's not an interpreter.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_03: But like Paul says, I keep it between myself and God.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_03: So nobody hears me speaking in tongues.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's good, and I think that's fine.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_03: Paul, uh, Paul's direction isn't just like stop all together.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_03: He says just keep it between you and God.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's fair in a church service.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, I would also say a lot of folks have talked about how edifying it is to pray in the spirit uh or to pray in tongues together or to sing in tongues together.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_03: I actually agree with that.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_03: And uh like when believers and I get together, sometimes we will do those things.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's different from uh church service where everybody's present and there are unbelievers uh potentially present.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's so that's different.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I do think like praying in tongues in a prayer meeting that you know is all Christians, or singing in tongues in a in a worship meeting that you know is all Christians, that could be different.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_03: But once you get a room of like a hundred or more people, I mean it uh it becomes hard to know that everybody in there is an actual Christian.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_03: So but I will affirm that experience is really enriching.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_03: And uh last of all, a number of folks have brought up the context.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_03: And if you go back and watch my short, I actually, that's one of the things that I say is that the context of Deion Sanders is not a church service, the context of Deion Sanders is uh a press conference.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh that is duly noted.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_03: But what I said in the video was that the principle that Paul applies when he says this is a sign of judgment would apply to uh a press conference just as well, in our opinion.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_03: So anyway, so we do acknowledge that contextual difference, but I think the the reasoning that Paul makes would naturally still apply there.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_03: So uh those are my thoughts, Miller.
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_04: Do you have any other uh I don't know?
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_04: I I I probably just begin to say I actually still love this gift, and I know it might sound like we don't, just because we're saying don't do it without an interpreter in front of unbelievers.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's really the pretty simple truth of it.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_04: I'm all for speaking in tongues, and I don't even mind doing it without an interpreter when I'm with other believers who aren't gonna be freaked out by it.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_04: I think when Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13, be mature, that's it.
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's what he's going for.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_04: Like, let's just do this in a mature fashion.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's what we're advocating for when it comes to tongues.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, look, I I'll we'll have a conference next week in Houston, Texas.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_04: I'll be teaching on tongues and interpretation.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_04: I'll be literally speaking publicly in tongues with the intent for it to be interpreted, and we'll have people there to interpret.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_04: And so it's not like it's that hard to pull that off.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I don't know why we just don't simply include it.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we had a service on Saturday where we did that.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I'm the worst.
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_01: We are supposed to be better at promoting the conference that we're doing in like two weeks um because we have not.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's a week, bro.
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know it's in a it's in a week.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's October 1st through 3rd.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so you guys can still register.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to get an online ticket, you can get an online ticket.
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to be in person if you don't want to be.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you get access to all the recordings, including hearing Miller speak in tongues, and you can post it all over the internet.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wait, that's gonna be online.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want that to be online.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, it'll be taped.
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it'll be the audio will be recorded.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it doesn't have to be to practice in the actual demonstration part of it.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_01: The practice in doesn't have to be recorded.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was joking.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was joking.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but all that to say that uh you guys should register.
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm the worst.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Christina sent me a text today saying, don't forget to mention this.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't do it till the end.
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh okay.
• 1:18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Guys, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Remnant Radio.
• 1:18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we are pro-tongues here.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_01: We just had a service on Saturday night at my church where we did tongues and interpretation.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we talked about tongues and interpretation.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was not a huge gathering.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we had someone speaking tongues and we did some practice uh when it comes to asking God for interpretation.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we're big fans of it.
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you should do it.
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we absolutely pursue this gift uh because it's one of those gifts of the spirit, it's a manifestation of the spirit, and where the spirit manifests is the safest place you can be.
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but we should do uh the practice of these things the way we are prescribed to in scripture.
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh hope you guys enjoyed this program.
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_01: We will see you next Monday and Wednesday from 4 to 5 p.m.
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Central Standard Time.
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Been a lot of really good shows that have come out here on the YouTube.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if you haven't watched those, go back and watch our episode answering your questions on the John Vivere video.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh go back and uh watch Michael's video on can Demons Prophesy or the Antichrist, who that is.
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of really great stuff that we've been putting out here recently.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we're thankful for our viewers for checking all that out.
• 1:19:36
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time, guys.