Latest / Project Podcast / Episode 100: the BBC’s Ros Atkins on how to be a better communicator

Transcript

Episode 100: the BBC’s Ros Atkins on how to be a better communicator · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast, brought to you by the
0:11
Association for Project Management, the childhood body
0:13
for the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita, and I'm
0:17
the editor of Projects, APM's quarterly journal and your host.
0:21
When we first started recording our podcasts in 2020, we used it
0:25
as a way to document the work project professionals on the
0:28
frontline of the COVID pandemic were doing, from vaccine hunters
0:32
and HMRC top bosses leading the furlough projects to
0:36
professionals helping to pivot businesses online to keep
0:39
everything going. We're celebrating the 100th APM
0:42
podcast with a special guest this episode, so let me
0:46
introduce you to Ross Atkins, the BBC's News Analysis Editor,
0:50
who has presented and reported on some of the biggest stories
0:52
around the world for 20 years. He's also the creator of the
0:56
critically acclaimed Ross Atkins On Video series, where he
1:00
explains complex stories in a truly masterful way, from the
1:03
causes of the COVID pandemic to the war in Ukraine.
1:06
His new book, The Art of Explanation, is out now in
1:09
paperback, so we thought you'd love to hear from Ross himself
1:12
about how to get the often difficult art of explaining
1:15
right. We don't just mean explaining
1:17
the insurance and outs of a project to your team or
1:20
stakeholders, but how to communicate everything that
1:23
matters to you with both clarity and confidence so that you can
1:27
get what you set out to achieve. Ross has spent his career honing
1:31
his communication skills, so let's find out about his
1:33
foolproof system for getting explanations right and some
1:37
other top tips on effective communication.
1:46
Thanks Ross for your time today for the APM podcast.
1:50
Really appreciate it. Pleasure.
1:52
Let's dive straight in. I wanted to say congratulate you
1:54
on your book and and the videos you make.
1:57
Why do you think there's such an appetite for not only the
2:00
explainer videos, but also the advice you give on how to
2:03
explain and communicate well? Well, thank you very much indeed
2:06
for for inviting me and thanks for your kind words.
2:10
I think my starting point with all of this is that we are all,
2:14
in our different ways, being completely overwhelmed by
2:16
information. Regardless of what line of work
2:19
you do or what stage of life you're at, the chances are that
2:23
there's far too much information coming at you that you can
2:26
possibly consume. But that doesn't mean that we
2:28
don't want information. We do really want to need
2:32
useful, accessible information both for our working lives and
2:36
outside of our working lives. So I do think that anyone who is
2:39
offering to help us find the information we want as easily as
2:43
possible is likely to to find that what they're offering is
2:47
popular. And so in the case of our
2:50
explainer videos, what we're trying to do is there's still an
2:52
awful lot of information about a story or issue and put it into a
2:55
form where if you give us relatively short period of time
2:58
in a few minutes, in return, we hope will give you not just a
3:02
lot of useful information, but we'll also explain how that
3:06
information fits together. So that's what we're doing.
3:09
But I think it plays into a broader desire for all of us to
3:13
have information given to us in a way that is easier to consume
3:16
because frankly, we're spending a huge amount of our lives
3:20
processing and working through this vast amount of information
3:24
coming towards us. And if any source of
3:27
information, whether it's a person or an organisation, makes
3:31
that information easy to access and as relevant to us as
3:34
possible and as useful as possible, then we're likely to
3:38
think well towards that person or organisation because they're
3:41
saving US time. They're making the task of
3:43
finding the information we need easier.
3:45
And I hope that in our way, our explainer videos and the book
3:50
that I've written on this kind of plays into that because it
3:52
emphasises that good communication benefits the
3:56
person passing on the information because we give that
3:58
information the best chance of reaching the people we hope it
4:01
will reach. But it also works for the people
4:03
receiving information because they get the things that they
4:06
would like to know in as easier form to consume as possible.
4:10
Thanks, Ross. I, I definitely picked up on
4:13
that in your book. And one of the things that
4:15
surprised me was that there is an appetite for longer forms of
4:18
explanation as well, because there was something you raised
4:21
in the book where you feel as though people just have very
4:25
short attention spans now, you know, social media X whatever,
4:30
but actually there's a proven audience for people listening to
4:34
longer things or sticking in there if the explanation is
4:37
good. Is that something you that
4:39
surprised you too? I think there's a lot of
4:42
evidence around that, that both of these things can be true.
4:45
There are definitely environments in which we all
4:47
want information being offered to us or content being offered
4:51
to us in very short form, whether that might be a TikTok
4:55
video or, you know, posts on Instagram or X or other social
4:59
media that in some circumstances is what we're after.
5:04
Or we might be getting a, an update from work in an e-mail.
5:07
We don't want 1000 words. We'd much prefer to get a really
5:09
short e-mail with some bullet points that helps us understand
5:12
the point of that e-mail. So there are lots of
5:14
circumstances in which short does work for us.
5:17
But at the same time as that, there is also lots of evidence
5:21
that when people want detail, it's given to them in a way
5:24
that's engaging, that's easy to consume, that's easy to
5:27
understand, that they will spend time on it because detail is
5:31
relevant to them and interesting to them.
5:33
So we don't have to choose between these two things.
5:36
I think there are occasions when we want content and information
5:39
in really short form, but equally there are other times
5:43
when we will spend much more time on a subject.
5:45
If, and it's a big if, if the information is being given to us
5:49
in a way that feels relevant, accessible, helpful and all of
5:52
these things which I'm trying to do both with the book I've
5:55
written and with the videos I do for the BBC.
5:58
OK. I can't wait to dissect your
6:00
kind of system a bit later on, but I wanted to raise the point
6:04
for our listeners because our listeners are project
6:06
professionals ranging from apprentices up to very senior
6:09
level. Because your book and the advice
6:11
you give is not just about how to give a specific explanation,
6:14
it's about how to communicate clearly in many different
6:17
circumstances. So for project professionals,
6:21
there is a a lot of explanation to not only your team members
6:25
around the vision of a project, what needs to get done, but also
6:30
to stakeholders outside the project.
6:33
So communities who might not necessarily agree with what
6:37
you're doing, who have a very different perspective.
6:41
So I wondered if you could give us an idea of like the benefits
6:45
of improving our explanation skills not only inside of work,
6:51
but outside of work as well. Because there are clear benefits
6:53
for, you know, as an individual in everyday life as well.
6:57
Well, let's take the example of a, of a big project, the example
7:00
that you've just given in my work as a journalist, if I'm
7:05
trying to get an idea off the ground or a story commissioned,
7:08
well, I might need to interact with a number of people within
7:11
the BBC. It might be the producers who
7:13
I'm making the idea with or the the piece of content with.
7:17
It might be the editors who are going to Commission it.
7:19
There might be the executives above those editors if the idea
7:23
is a longer term plan. And then as well as that, of
7:27
course, when we're making the content, when we're developing
7:30
the stories, we need to think about which audiences we're
7:32
hoping to reach and which different types of BBC output,
7:36
digital radio, television, we might use in order to deliver
7:39
that piece of journalism. And so you're having lots and
7:43
lots of interactions with people who all need different things
7:46
from you. And in the same way, I would
7:49
imagine that that it is good project management because
7:52
again, you're dealing with lots of colleagues, lots of people
7:55
outside your organisation and you're having to make different
7:58
calculations. And my, my experience is that
8:01
the more that you can tailor what you're saying to the
8:05
particular people you're trying to reach, the more likely they
8:08
are to engage with what you're offering them.
8:10
Because in my experience as ATV presenter and reporter, if I can
8:14
make what I'm saying on the news feel relevant to a person
8:18
watching or listening or reading, they're much more
8:21
likely to consume that piece of news because they feel a
8:24
connection between their lives and what I'm telling them.
8:27
And similarly, if you're trying to communicate when you're
8:29
overseeing a big project, if you're pushing a lot of
8:32
information towards someone and they're thinking, I don't know
8:36
if this information is really particularly relevant to me or
8:38
the piece of information that is relevant is surrounded by a lot
8:41
of other information that isn't. There are lots of things that
8:44
can come with that that won't help you.
8:46
The person you're trying to communicate with might think,
8:48
well, all of this stuff doesn't look like it's for me, so they
8:51
won't engage with any of it. They might slightly resent the
8:54
fact that they're having to work hard to find the information
8:57
that's right for them amongst all of this other information
9:00
that's not. And you may send a broader
9:03
message that you're not necessarily making the effort
9:06
that you could to give them the information that's most
9:09
important to them. Or if you flip that round and be
9:11
more positive about this, if you can be really clear what
9:15
information the different stakeholders, the different
9:18
colleagues need to know and you can give it to them in a highly
9:21
accessible way and highly comprehensible way.
9:25
Well, they're going to notice that you're making that effort
9:27
and they're much more likely to consume it and then much more
9:30
likely to engage with it. And so when I'm thinking about
9:34
all of the different people I might need to communicate with
9:36
on one idea or another, I always stop and think, what would this
9:40
person like to know from me? Let's see it from their side.
9:44
What are the questions or the doubts or the pieces of
9:47
information that they would like from me?
9:49
And if I can provide them with that, not a guarantee that
9:52
they're going to consume what Ioffer them, it's not a
9:54
guarantee they're going to agree with me.
9:57
But I am giving myself a good chance of giving them a lot of
9:59
information that feels relevant to them.
10:02
And so I've worked on big projects over the years in
10:05
different forms. I always try and think, even if
10:08
I'm dealing with 10/15/20 different people with different
10:12
interests in the project stopping and thinking, what do
10:15
each of those individuals want to know from me?
10:18
What would it be helpful for them to know?
10:20
And if I can then answer those questions, there's a good chance
10:24
that they're going to feel what I'm offering is relevant.
10:27
And if they feel it's relevant, they're much more likely to
10:29
engage with it. Oh, thanks Ross.
10:32
Something that strikes me is the amount of preparation and time
10:36
you must put in that you're that comes through from your advice
10:41
as well to people. It's spending that time ahead to
10:45
the really put yourself in other people's shoes, I guess.
10:48
Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I, when I was before the
10:52
book came out, I showed a proof of it to someone I know who's
10:57
the CEO of a, of a big organisation.
11:00
And he was clicking through it and he said, Ross says this
11:04
looks like the case for preparation.
11:05
He said, waving the book at me. And, and of course, he was quite
11:08
right. The book is very much me saying
11:10
it's worth preparing. And there's a, there's a phrase
11:13
that my wife used one day when we were chatting in the kitchen
11:16
and I was writing the book and, you know, not for the first
11:19
time. And she was having to listen to
11:20
me talk about it. And she said, what you're
11:22
describing is the initial investment.
11:24
And I said, what do you mean? That's an interesting phrase.
11:26
And she said you're making the case to invest time in how you
11:30
communicate for all the benefits that follow.
11:32
And so you look quite right to observe that I am making that
11:35
case that when we put aside time to think about how we
11:39
communicate to all of the different people we want to
11:41
reach, there are so many benefits that follow.
11:45
I would argue that that time is a worthy investment.
11:49
Yeah, it is. So that's the key point to come
11:51
across. The other thing I wanted to ask
11:52
you about, which kind of ties into what you're saying about
11:55
the relevant information to give to people, but also talk, talk
11:58
to me about the language you should use because I come from a
12:01
broad business kind of genders and backgrounds and come into
12:04
project management. There is a lot of jargon.
12:07
Well, I mean, to be honest, in any sector of business as
12:09
business speak, which can trick people into thinking that they
12:14
come across as expert and sometimes that's deliberate.
12:19
What do you think about jargon, business speaking, the type of
12:22
language you use for effective communication and explanation?
12:27
I think let's split this into two.
12:29
We all in our workplaces have jargon that we use to explain
12:33
something that everyone understands.
12:35
So I'll give you one example. In the BBC newsroom, especially
12:38
within TV news, we would call a clip of someone talking assault.
12:44
And that's an acronym. It stands for Sound on tape.
12:46
It's an acronym that reaches many years back and we just call
12:50
clips stop. So if I was to work with a
12:54
producer on a video and one of us might say I think we've got
12:58
too many shots in this video, that's some jargon.
13:01
But actually everyone within the conversation knows exactly what
13:04
it means. And so we carry on working in.
13:06
No harm done when you get into problems is well, there are two
13:11
areas. 1 is when you start using that jargon, but actually not
13:14
everyone in the in the conversation knows it.
13:17
So you're really alienating a bunch of people by using
13:20
something that that some of the people in the conversation won't
13:23
know what you mean. And that is obviously not the
13:25
right thing to do. And so if I was in a broader
13:27
conversation with people about a video and we were short of
13:31
clips, I would say, I think we've got too many clips in this
13:34
video or I think we need more clips in this video.
13:36
So I would say clip rather than sought because I would
13:38
understand that the, the group of people I was talking to
13:41
wouldn't necessarily know the acronym.
13:43
So those are calculations we can make and we should definitely
13:46
understand the cost of using words and phrases and concepts
13:51
that people, some people who we're communicating with don't
13:53
understand. They'll simply conclude what
13:55
this isn't for me and start tuning out.
13:57
It's not, it's not something we want to be doing.
14:00
But there's a second element to this, which is when we use
14:02
complex language, phrase complex words, phrases and so on, simply
14:09
instead of using simpler language to explain it.
14:13
Sometimes this can feel performative.
14:15
I'm sure some people listening can think of times when they've
14:17
felt that colleagues are perhaps kind of performing by using
14:20
complex phrases and words. I don't think this is ever
14:23
needed. And one of the most powerful
14:25
things that I keep in mind when I'm communicating, whether with
14:28
colleagues, whether you know, on the TV or making a video or
14:32
whatever circumstances, I simply ask myself, here's what I'm
14:36
saying in the simplest form that it can be.
14:39
And that doesn't mean I'm dumbing down or discarding
14:42
important information. It just means once I've decided
14:45
what it is that I think it's important to say, can I get that
14:48
into its simplest form? And that means replacing complex
14:52
words and phrases with things that are simply easier to
14:55
understand. Because there is a really, in my
14:58
mind, a straightforward equation, which is that the
15:01
simpler you make your language, the easier it is to understand
15:05
and the easier it is for people to act on.
15:07
And when you look at it in those terms, you always want to be
15:10
thinking about getting your meaning into the simplest form
15:13
that it can be. We're APM, the only chartered
15:18
membership organisation for the project profession.
15:21
When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and
15:24
support you need to make an impact, delivering better
15:27
projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive
15:31
training and benefits to support your ongoing career development.
15:34
We'll find out how we can help you reach your potential by
15:37
visiting apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed,
15:42
society benefits. I'm thinking about the kind of
15:50
information project professionals need to pass on.
15:53
And often it will be verbally so in a project team meeting to get
15:57
people motivated or to stakeholders.
15:59
And you can imagine that kind of town hall situation where people
16:04
might be opposing what you do. Have you got any advice or top
16:09
tips and verbally delivering information and also dealing
16:14
with difficult comments or feedback or questions that
16:18
people ask? Well, I think in the case of if
16:22
you're going into a meeting, whatever the circumstance where
16:25
you're likely to be asked questions that could be
16:28
challenging or difficult to answer.
16:30
I mean, that's something that all of us experience in the
16:32
workplace, not in a bad way. It's just quite correct that in
16:35
lots of circumstances our ideas and our plans are challenged and
16:39
discussed. That's completely normal.
16:41
The thing that I try and do and you and learn this from doing
16:45
interviews in the news is it's good to try and anticipate what
16:48
you think you're going to be asked.
16:49
So if I'm, if I'm being interviewed myself, such as in
16:56
this situation, I'll definitely stop and think in advance what
16:59
are the questions I'm likely to be asked.
17:02
And in fact, when I was preparing for this book to come
17:05
out, I wrote down all the different questions I thought
17:07
that could come up in media interviews and then work through
17:10
how I'd like to answer them. So you can anticipate some of
17:14
the things that would, that might, that might come up.
17:17
I was involved in starting a diversity project at the BBC
17:20
called 5050. And in the early days when we
17:22
were explaining the idea to lots of different teams, we made sure
17:26
that we tried to anticipate the perfectly valid concerns and
17:30
questions colleagues might have about our plans and then think
17:34
about how we were going to answer them.
17:36
And if I'm going on the TV to report on a story, I would
17:39
think, well, what are the most likely questions the presenters
17:42
I'm going to be speaking to are going to ask me?
17:44
And I will definitely say out loud how I think I'm going to
17:47
answer them. And my experience is that the
17:50
first time I say it is very rarely as good as I would like
17:54
it to be, but the second or third time I start to improve
17:57
the precision and efficiency and clarity with which I'm speaking.
18:01
So going into any environment where you're going to be facing
18:04
a range of questions, whether supportive or challenging, it's
18:07
always worth simply stopping and thinking what are those
18:10
questions most likely to be? How would I like to answer them?
18:14
Practise how you answer them, review how your practise is
18:17
going and improve them and keep practising until by the time
18:21
you're in those situations, both the question and how you're
18:25
answering, it will feel much more familiar and there's a
18:28
greater chance you'll speak with, with, with, with clarity
18:32
in that moment. So that would be, that would be
18:34
one thing in terms of how, how to deal with people who are
18:38
perhaps getting angry with you or perhaps challenging you in a
18:42
way that might make you, that might be, might put you in a
18:46
difficult position. Well, I used to present a phone
18:49
in on BBC World Service for a number of years.
18:51
And of course, most of the, the vast majority of the callers
18:54
were fantastic and informative and you know, an absolute
18:58
pleasure to speak to. But from time to time you would
19:01
get someone who was was getting irate with you.
19:06
And I'm not an expert in how to manage some of the situations
19:09
project managers would would be in.
19:11
But in the case of in case of doing phone insurance, one of
19:13
the things I would often do would be to say, I want to
19:16
understand your perspective on this.
19:20
And if you're shouting at me, it's becoming hard to understand
19:24
that. And that was, that was a sincere
19:27
point because I genuinely would want to understand what that
19:31
particular caller was saying. And I would try and make the
19:33
case that if anger levels were getting to a certain level,
19:37
their understanding, their perspective was becoming harder.
19:40
And that was, that was sometimes effective because at the heart
19:44
of me presenting that programme, I was genuinely interested in
19:48
the perspective of every person who phoned that programme.
19:51
And I think being interested in people who don't agree with you
19:54
is really important. So if I'm in a meeting, whether
19:57
it's the BBC or otherwise, and people are not agreeing with a
20:01
plan or a suggestion of mine, I'm genuinely interested to
20:04
understand why I'm not fed up with them or cross with them.
20:07
I'm I'm genuinely keen to understand why.
20:09
And I think if you can come from that perspective, that can help.
20:13
Thanks. Ross comes down to practising
20:16
and preparation and a point that I wanted to raise from the book
20:21
that you make is around context and that as a journalist, you
20:26
read around the subjects as much as you can and the the time that
20:29
you have. But you don't necessarily have
20:32
to bring that into whatever it is you're reporting on or
20:34
writing or presenting on. But it gives you the confidence
20:38
to feel as though you know that subjects inside out.
20:41
Is that something that would apply to business situations?
20:44
I'm thinking for project teams as well.
20:47
I think nothing is happening in isolation where there is a new
20:51
story that I'm covering or whether it's a project that
20:54
people listening to this podcast might be working on, that
20:56
project will be affected by lots of different factors all around
21:00
it. Equally, when I'm covering an
21:02
event in the news, that events relevance and consequence is
21:07
affected of course by the context in which the event has
21:10
happened. And I think often we jettison
21:13
context in exchange for simply the the core information on a
21:17
particular event or situation. And I would argue we need to do
21:20
both. We need to say this is the
21:21
situation we're in and here are the facts of the matter.
21:24
But the reason this matters is, and that's a phrase I use a lot.
21:27
The reason this matters is, and that's really a linking phrase
21:31
that helps you think about the context.
21:33
So let's take an example of a project that was supposed to be
21:38
finished by the end of September, but for whatever
21:40
reason, it's got to be finished by the end of August, which is
21:43
going to cause a whole lot of disruption.
21:45
When you were communicating that if you just went I'm, you know,
21:49
afraid this is going to be finished by the end of August,
21:51
people might quite reasonably be thinking, well, hold on, I mean,
21:54
that's not realistic why you're doing this.
21:56
This is really annoying. But if you said, well, actually
21:59
this has got to be finished a month early and the reasons are
22:02
this and this and this, and that's why we have to make this
22:05
difficult decision. By providing the context in the
22:07
decision, you're much more likely to for people to be
22:11
understanding of the decision that's being taken.
22:13
It's not a guarantee, but it's going to help.
22:15
And so the reason this has happened is the reason this
22:18
matters is these phrases and completing them really help us
22:22
focus on providing the necessary context for people to be able to
22:26
judge what we're telling them. And if you prioritise context,
22:31
you give yourself the best chance of making the case to
22:35
whoever you're speaking to that what you're telling them
22:38
matters, or what you're telling them has to be done for a
22:42
variety of reasons, or whatever the example might be.
22:44
But without that context, they can't really judge what you're
22:47
telling them very well. And if they can't judge what
22:51
you're telling them, quite reasonably, they might not
22:53
understand your perspective as much as you would like them to.
22:57
That makes sense. It also ties in with this idea
23:00
of storytelling. So kind of the story as a
23:02
project where you are. So you you treat people with
23:04
with respect, I guess to say, you know, this is where we are,
23:08
This is why it's happened. And you fill them in into why
23:12
things need to change. That's great.
23:15
I, I want to ask you now about the practical sides of
23:19
explaining. And in your book you outline the
23:21
principles behind it and also the system you go through to
23:26
provide the most efficient, clearest explanation you can.
23:31
Could you give our listeners some tips or a very brief
23:34
overview of how to approach explanation?
23:37
What are the kind of do's and don'ts?
23:40
So in the book I outline A7 step process to explanation.
23:44
And don't worry, I won't go through it in huge detail now,
23:47
otherwise this podcast might be quite long, but I can certainly
23:49
run you through the basic principles of it.
23:51
And essentially the way I see communication and explanation is
23:55
that you can't build a house by doing the roof first.
23:58
You've got to put the foundations in before you do
24:00
anything else. And for me, communication and
24:02
explanation is a series of steps, each of which gives you a
24:06
better chance of doing the next one well.
24:09
And the end outcome, of course, is hopefully us identifying the
24:13
information we want to pass on and then passing it on to the
24:16
people we hope to reach in the circumstances that we know
24:20
they're going to receive it, because we don't communicate in
24:23
a vacuum. And so the first of my seven
24:25
steps is called the set up. And this is really where we just
24:27
pause and ask ourselves, what's the purpose of this
24:30
communication? What's the information we want
24:32
to pass on? Who are the people we're trying
24:34
to pass it on to? How do they like to receive
24:36
information? In what circumstances will they
24:39
be receiving this particular piece of information?
24:42
And sometimes if you're going into a meeting, that assessment
24:45
can take 30 seconds. It doesn't have to take ages.
24:48
For bigger bits of work, it takes a little longer.
24:50
But if you can be really clear on what you're trying to
24:53
achieve, who it's for, what information you want them to
24:56
receive, the best way of giving them that information, you're
24:59
going to make much smarter decisions as the process goes
25:02
along. So that's step one.
25:04
And then once I've done that, Step 2 is to gather what I think
25:08
is the most relevant information.
25:10
Step 3 is to distil it, because one of the best things we can do
25:13
is once we've thought about what we want to say, is make sure we
25:16
get each piece of information we want to pass on.
25:19
In the simplest form it can be. It'll both save you time when
25:22
you're communicating and make it easier to take in.
25:25
So Step 3 is distillation. Step 4, that's organising the
25:29
information. Once I've worked out what I want
25:31
to pass on, I want to start giving it some structure so that
25:34
the information makes sense when interconnecting with its with
25:38
itself. And then the 5th part of the
25:41
process would be to link that information.
25:43
Once I've given a structure I practise.
25:46
How can I talk through this? So if I was wanting to say this
25:49
project is going to be finishing at the end of August, not the
25:52
end of September. I might be saying well the
25:55
project is finishing at the end of August. 3 things underpin
25:58
this decision. The 1st is this, the second is
26:00
that, the third is the other. And if you've got questions
26:03
about what happens if it goes over late, well I can tell you
26:06
this will be the consequence and that will be the consequence.
26:09
So I would practise being able to talk through the structure of
26:12
the information so I'm fluent and confident and precise.
26:16
And if it's written, I would go back over it a few times.
26:19
If it's spoken, I would practise it.
26:21
Which leads me to the last two parts of the the seven step
26:24
process. Step 6 is what I call the
26:27
tightening process, which is when we've put together
26:30
everything we want to pass on, it's always worth going back
26:33
over it as many times as you can, frankly, and thinking, does
26:37
this all need to be here? Is this all as clear as it can
26:40
be? And in my experience, you'll
26:42
always find ways of improving it, of tightening it and making
26:45
it more precise. And once you're in that
26:47
position, of course you're in a great situation.
26:49
You thought about what you want to do, you've gathered the
26:51
information, you've distilled it, you've organised it, you've
26:54
linked it, you've tightened what you've got.
26:56
And then my last step is rehearse.
26:59
Practise it. The more you say things out
27:01
loud, the more comfortable you're going to be.
27:04
And I see this all the time when I'm broadcasting.
27:07
Sometimes I'll be down in Downing St on a big political
27:09
story and you'll see people like reporters like me wandering up
27:13
and down Downing St talking to themselves.
27:15
And what they're doing is practising rehearsing the
27:18
phrases they want to use. This doesn't mean, I should add,
27:21
you're learning things by Rd. You're not learning it word for
27:24
word. You're simply practising
27:26
handling the information. Because that means that when
27:29
you're doing it, when it really matters, it'll be familiar,
27:32
you'll be more comfortable with it and you're likely to speak
27:35
with more precision. So those seven steps help me go
27:38
from first of all thinking what is it I'm exactly trying to do
27:41
here all the way through to doing it.
27:44
That's fantastic. And I'm assuming as well that
27:46
once you've had some time using the seven step process that it
27:52
almost comes automatically. Yes, I mean, I think there are,
27:56
there are lots of times when these things become automatic.
28:00
You know, I'll give you a, you know, very short example.
28:03
If I was called in as soon as I finished talking to you.
28:05
Now, if I was called into a meeting at work at short notice
28:08
and I knew who was going to be in the meeting and roughly what
28:11
it was about, I would quickly make 3 columns which would be
28:14
what information do I want to make sure I pass on?
28:16
What information would I like to get from the people I'm meeting
28:20
and what are the things that I hope will happen next And that
28:23
can take that can take 30 seconds.
28:25
So sometimes you could, you're right, you can do it on
28:28
instinct. However, I'm at the moment, you
28:31
know, as I'm speaking to you, I'm in the process of preparing
28:33
for a reasonably high profile speech.
28:35
I've got to give in a few weeks time and I am going through the
28:38
seven steps as written in the book pretty methodically.
28:41
And so there are times when I do follow it, you know, stage step
28:46
by step by step. There'll be other times when of
28:49
course, as you get used to it and you become, it becomes
28:52
habitual. You can do it on instinct in
28:54
part. But in my experience, actually
28:56
being methodical and going through it, even if it just
28:59
takes 5 minutes, pays you back because you're just double
29:03
checking that you're being as clear and as purposeful as you
29:06
want to be. Thanks, Ross.
29:08
If there's one piece of advice that you'd like listeners to
29:11
take away from our podcast, what would that be?
29:15
It would be to see communication and explanation as being really
29:18
important because often they're seen as being secondary skills
29:23
besides the other things which all of us are expert in in our
29:27
working lives. And for me, my ability to
29:30
communicate is core to my journalism and core to my work
29:34
as a broadcaster, as core as other disciplines that are
29:37
required of journalists and of broadcasters.
29:40
And sometimes I think that communication and how we
29:43
communicate is something that we largely do on instinct and
29:45
perhaps don't consciously think about as much as we do other
29:48
skills in our working life. So the big one for me, before
29:51
you get into what do you do and how do you do it, is simply to
29:55
see it as being really important.
29:59
OK, thanks Ross. What are the proudest things
30:02
you've worked on at the BBC? Oh goodness.
30:06
Well, I've been lucky enough to do, you know, a range of, you
30:10
know, a range of things at the BBC which I'm incredibly proud
30:13
to have done with. With along with many brilliant
30:15
colleagues, we created ATV format called Outside Source,
30:18
which ran for almost 10 years on BBC World News TV and BBC News
30:24
Channel in the UK. We're very, very, very proud of
30:26
that. I mentioned the Diversity
30:28
Project 5050, which some of us started in the BBC Newsroom.
30:32
I'm very proud of how that's grown to be a really very big
30:35
project. And we're proud of our explainer
30:38
videos as well, which have become, you know, way more
30:41
popular than I think we ever imagined they could have done
30:43
when we were starting them. And you know, I'm sure there are
30:46
other things too. And of course, all of these
30:48
ideas are that a combination of many different people's work.
30:52
But there's no doubt that the ability to talk about ideas,
30:56
whether it's me talking about it or colleagues talking about it,
30:59
if you can talk about what you're trying to create, you're
31:02
much more likely that you will be able to create it.
31:05
And if I sound kind of very committed to this, well, of
31:08
course I am, because I've done a book on it and, and care deeply
31:11
about it. But really communication and how
31:14
you approach it can be the difference between something
31:17
happening and not happening. And when you look at it in those
31:19
terms, then it becomes an absolute priority.
31:23
But it leads me to ask you what you enjoy about your work,
31:26
particularly around the whole area of explaining and
31:28
communication. Well, I've always been very
31:31
interested in the news as I, you know, I can remember all the way
31:34
back to just starting secondary school and being an avid
31:36
consumer of the news. So I, you know, if you're still
31:39
feels I've been at the BBC an awfully long time, but it still
31:41
feels like an enormous privilege to walk in the door everyday and
31:44
sit down in, in the BBC newsroom.
31:46
And I never, never take that for granted.
31:49
I think there's a huge privilege in being given a role in an
31:53
organisation like the BBC to help all of our different
31:57
audiences, listeners, readers, viewers understand the world
32:00
that they live in. That's a hugely privileged role
32:02
to to perform. And my small part in that feels
32:06
something that I absolutely relished doing because I know as
32:10
a consumer that when the news works for me, it's helping me
32:13
understand my world. It's helping me understand an
32:16
event or an issue. And when done well, there's a
32:18
huge value to that. And I remain, you know,
32:21
passionate about the importance of journalism in providing that.
32:26
And then I think as a presenter, one of the great privileges is
32:29
that you get to ask questions often of people who are in power
32:34
or right in the middle of an important story.
32:36
And being the person who on behalf of the audience is
32:39
actually putting the questions to those people is always a
32:42
privilege. And I never take it for granted.
32:44
And I've been lucky enough to present for the region of 20
32:46
years now, but I never ever tyre of the privilege position that
32:51
comes from sitting in a studio or, you know, if you're
32:54
reporting, you know, on a particular story and you, you
32:58
get to speak to the person in the middle of it.
33:01
And this is a person often that your audiences will want to hear
33:04
from. And you're lucky enough to be
33:05
the one answer asking the questions.
33:08
And that, you know, that too, is a huge privilege and, and one
33:11
that still feels as, as, as important and as, as something
33:16
that I'm deeply committed to as it as it was when I started
33:19
doing it 20 years ago. Is there anything else you
33:22
wanted to add? Any other last bits of advice
33:25
you'd pass on to project professionals?
33:28
Well, I think that the thing that I feel very strongly is
33:31
I've already said that communication really matters.
33:35
And it's worth taking time to think about how you communicate
33:38
both in the smaller moments, such as in a quick meeting or an
33:41
e-mail, up to the bigger moments where you're having to present a
33:45
large plan or make the case to a large group of people that
33:48
something should happen. It's just worth taking the time
33:52
over it. The second thing I would say is
33:54
that, you know, if you open up my book, of course, it's however
33:57
many pages long, 300 or more pages long, full of advice.
34:01
And it could be easy to pick this up and think, goodness,
34:03
this is an awful lot to take on. But what I would say is that
34:06
there are lots of things that we can.
34:08
You don't have to do a six month training course to improve how
34:11
you communicate. It's possible to sit down and
34:14
go, OK, what one thing could I do differently that I think will
34:17
improve how I managed to get across the information I'm
34:20
trying to communicate? There are things that we can
34:22
adjust very quickly and very simply, and they can make a
34:25
large difference. So, for example, if you send
34:28
lots of emails, are your emails as short and as easy to consume
34:32
as possible? If they aren't, perhaps there
34:35
are ways that you can experiment with the formatting or the
34:37
writing which makes them easier to consume.
34:40
That might just be one thing you could try.
34:42
Or if you're going into a meeting tomorrow, could you try
34:45
using my three lists of what information do I want to pass
34:47
on? What information do I want from
34:49
the people in the meeting? What actions do I hope will
34:52
agree by the end of the meeting? You can just experiment with
34:55
small adjustments in how you're communicating.
34:58
And that can be something you can take on tomorrow.
35:01
And if it goes well, you can add to it and become more and more
35:04
adventurous. But don't feel it's all or
35:06
nothing. This isn't either you spend
35:08
months completely reimagining how you communicate or nothing
35:11
at all. I hope what comes across in the
35:13
book is there are lots of small things that we can do to
35:16
incrementally improve how we communicate.
35:19
And in my experience, quite quickly you will feel the
35:22
difference in how people are responding to you and and how
35:26
well people are understanding what you're trying to pass on to
35:29
them. And that, of course, is a good
35:31
feeling. Ross and really wise, wise,
35:33
thanks so much for your time. I know you're clearly in a very
35:36
busy kind of new cycle at the moment, so it's been a pleasure
35:39
to talk to you. Wish you the best luck with the
35:42
book and everything else you're working on.
35:44
Thank you very much for having me, really appreciate it.
35:54
Thanks again to Ross for joining us and to you for listening to
35:57
the APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for
36:00
more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your
36:02
podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch
36:05
with your comments, feedback, and suggestions by emailing us
36:08
at APM Podcast at thinkpublishing.co.uk.
36:13
This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body
36:16
for the project profession. For more information on APM,
36:20
visit APM org UK.